Submitted by Microsoft Corp. on Friday asked that a lawsuit claiming it duped consumers in a Windows Vista marketing program be suspended while the company appeals a judge’s decision to grant the case class-action status.
If granted, the motion would also postpone any new disclosures of potentially embarrassing company e-mails. Last month, the release of similar documents showed that top-level company executives struggled with the new operating system on machines labeled “Vista Capable,” and that partners such as Dell Inc. warned Microsoft that the campaign would confuse consumers.
No reason, hmmmm. Even if you didn’t intentionally mislead consumers (which in itself is debatable), some of your partners warned you ahead of time that it was going to confuse the hell out of them. So if you weren’t dishonest, you deserve to be slapped around a little bit for being stupid.
And since you have about as many versions of Vista as I have underwear, I’m sure that didn’t help much either.
Well said.
Reading through the already published emails, it quite easy to see that MS was well aware of the problem. But instead of giving their customers the right information, they chose to help out Intel instead. If that is not deserving of a black eye, I don’t know what is.
I, for one, will be going back to pirating MS software cause this is the last time I pay for such shoddy service.
I for one will continue buying /alternative/ software to Microsoft products, and not resort to pirating – and thus supporting the adoption, use, acceptance and proliferation of Microsoft and Windows technologies.
You’re a muppet if you think pirating Windows is ‘sticking it to the man’.
I think you’ve got me all wrong.
I have been using both proprietary and open source software for a long time (due to being an avid gamer, and don’t come at me with Cedega!), although I never had the money to pay for a version of Windows. In fact, the first OS I actually paid money for was Mandrake.
When Vista came out, I thought it was about time to actually paid MS for an OS instead of pirating it. Considering just how much of their software I have used over the years, I think it was only fair.
How wrong was I? Not only have a p*ssed about €400 down the drain, I also find out that the software doesn’t do what it says on the tin.
Muppet? me? your god dam right I am! (or at least feeling that way!) I’m going strait back to piracy for my next PC gaming platform!
Fool me once – shame on you;
Fool me twice – shame on me!
If you’ve been burned by Windows, ‘don’t go back to it’ would be the sensible choice!
Dual boot your copy of Vista with Linux, and use Vista just for gaming and put up with the direness for now as SP1 will be out soon enough, and all PC gaming will be on Vista eventually as XP is in the process of being discontinued. New games are going to be increasingly Vista/DX10 only and that’s just the facts of PC gaming.
I got out of PC gaming and switched to consoles and independent/multi-platform games. I think the last PC game I bought is Black & White 2, and the only one I see myself buying is Spore, but for the Mac.
That is pretty much what I do. I run PCLinuxOS as my main desktop (I like things simple, lazy me) and dual boot Vista for my gaming needs. I even dumped my work laptop (Lenovo R61) Vista installation for PCLinuxOS due to the fact that we use Notes/Domino for our mail system.
As for using a console for gaming, it has started to make much more sense for me in recent years, especially since you can now connect to the net. Most new titles are released on or developed for consoles first, then maybe ported to the PC. Thing is, I like the keyboard/mouse combination so I’m still dragging my feet on that front.
What I don’t get is you advocating Apple if you are so worried about lock-in. Apple is at least no better than MS, and some would say worse. Both companies tout open source as the new party line yet at least MS does not pretend that their OS is open. Even the truly open source software that Apple includes in OSX, like Apache, has been subtly altered so that a long time admin would have a hard time figuring out how it works on Mac.
I understand where you are coming from-
However, switching to Mac has taught me more about open source than I could have ever hoped to learn by being on Windows.
I have learnt some Unix stuff, PHP, Shell Scripting, some Ruby and tons of open source ways of doing things.
By switching to Mac, I’ve prepared myself for a much more seamless move to Linux if I don’t like where Apple goes in the future.
I could have never have moved to Linux from Windows, the two are far too disparate, and Microsoft suffer from major NIH syndrome; the same is not the case between Linux and Mac.
I disagree. I was able to jump directly from Windows to Linux with very little hassle, and this at a time when the X window system was not installed by default. All that was needed was about a day trying stuff out and a friend to call if I got really stuck.
Frankly, for all your pro open source bluster over the last few comments, I’m kinda disappointed to hear that you haven’t made the jump yet. It’s one thing to tout the strength of open source to a Windows user, another to preach to the converted.
I use the best tool for the job. Open source where applicable, proprietary otherwise.
Open source scripting languages and enablers (apache, firefox) are just plain better, and closed source apps for creating content are just plain better.
I mention Linux for those who a) would prefer that over Mac OS, and b) it’s free. Not because it’s primarily Open Source, it’s simply better than Windows, nuff said.
I love my keyboard and mouse control for games. I haven’t yet found a console controller with the accuracy of the mouse and the ability to map most of 102 keys too specific functions. Console controllers are great for some games but it rarely doesn’t feel like a children’s toy next to the same game with full controls by mouse/key. Besides, I’ve yet to find a technical flight sim that runs on a console.
As always, the consoles jump ahead in technology from time to time but ultimately, the desktop game rigs push and develop the hardware for the next generation of consoles.
I share your feelings towards Apple also. They provide a much higher degree of customer lock-in than MS. I respect them much more than MS in a few places though.
First, product quality is there primary goal and laying Apple X window manager (er, osX) over BSD was the best thing they could have done for ther users. They focus on it so much that they keep there OS locked too there own hardware too the detrement of there own market share that would explode if nonApple hardware was officialy supported under osX. The goal was always to build an information appliance as well integrated and obvious as a toaster or microwave. osX really is a fantastic OS; as far as closed and proprietary goes.
Second, they’re business practices are not outright abusive. They do not have a long list of “partners” that they ultimately ran into the ground. They are still a coproration bound by corporate law and so, ulimately a sociopathic entity but they do seem to put much more interest in the end user’s experience rather than the shareholders intrests first and formost.
I’m no Cult of Mac fanboy but as an end user, I have to recognize what they do well as much as I have to recognize what few things MS has down for the benefit of the end user. Mind you, MS benefits to the end user seem to be in activities far removed from there OS and Office monopolies.
I gotta say, you have me there! 😉
I feel pretty much the same way about Apple and although it grates at times, I tend to forgive them their lock ins because of their fantastic offerings and general user driven business model.
Still, I’d be happier if they could cut us all some slack and not make us send in an iPod or iPhone for something as simple as a battery change. 😉
The unaccessible batteries are a big turnoff for me with iPods. At least the macbook pro can be upgraded at home once you dig through the 20 or so screwes holding the case together.
My personal feeling with the iPod remains this; why would I limited myself to something that only plays music and/or video? My PalmT5 does both of those things and about 75% more and the N800 replacing it is still showing me new tricks. We’ll see what the open API does for the touch and phone but the previous generations are only great if you just want a music/video player or can’t live without your apple shapped status simbols.
No user accessible but time limited parts; bite me Mr Jobs. I’m not going to spend six to eight weeks for a batter replacement or buy a new gadget when my current one works perfectly well except for the inevitable failure of it’s power source. (I might buy a replacement if it blew itself apart like the iPod battery that recently burst into flames but you can bet I’d be expecting warranty coverage and damages)
I’ve read (but have not tried, since I’m a PC gamer, still) that you can connect a keyboard and mouse to the XBox 360, and they will work in most games.
I just upgraded my PC gaming rig, and it was a hard call to spend that money on a gaming rig instead of on a console, and a less powerful computer to run my normal PC apps, and the console to run my games.
In the end, the freedom of the PC (to run games, mods, demos, etc.) that won the argument, as I don’t mind the console controller for most games. Not FPS though, can’t play those on consoles, except those that are designed for it – Metroid – that would have been easier with a mouse and keyboard though, even over the Wii-Mote (minus the cool motion sensor stuff, that was fun). Zelda would have been better with a GC controller, to be quite honest.
BTW, Ubuntu and Linux in general need to get better at supporting the newest hardware – I’m stuck on Vista because my PC’s hardware isn’t working quite as well under the Alpha version of Ubuntu 8 (the current stable build runs worse). I get no boot screen, and sometimes it stalls in an odd way during boot up, and it runs hotter (the fans spin up more often under Ubuntu than Vista).
Still Ubuntu makes my computer feel new, while Vista is actually slower feeling than XP was on 4 year old hardware – and I have 4 GB of DDR 800 RAM, which should be plenty.
Contact your hardware vendor and ask why they have chosen not to support Linux based OS since you are obviously willing to pay and they seem to be ignoring the market. If it’s because there chips include some patented material they ask why they don’t provide a generic driver interface that would protect the patented material.
The kernel developers and by proxy, cononical, would be more than happy to include support for more hardware but they are limited by the manufacturers. The bias towards Windows only hardware and the idea that FOSS users will not pay for good products is slowly erroding.
You may also try a few different distributions to see if another includes better hardware support for your needs. PCLinuxOS is good I hear and Mandriva treats me well. Both are very user friendly if your not a command prompt lover.
In future, consider checking ubuntu or your prefered distributions list of supported hardware. I recommend then, sending a letter to your prefered hardware manufacturer explaining that you chose there competitor’s product and explaining that it was due to there choice to not support your software platform. The customer is always right, usually.
I’m going through the same thing with my current system build. Most of the parts are chosen but video cards will be the last part baught so I can see if ATI or nVidia have learned to play nice by then. (Damn is the 8800 ever a strong argument too move away from ATI)
I think this is the case for most hardcore gamers, consoles to this day are still so limiting for game life. Take Call of Duty 4 for example. Most people that have bought the console version will probably not be playing it in 1-2 years time. The PC version on the other hand will have years of life so long as the mod community keeps it alive. Case in point is that Call of Duty UO is still an active game after all these years. Maps are still being made, mods are still around, etc.
This is the primary reason I do not like running Linux on my laptop, the performance/heat issue. To date I have yet to find an effective tool that can adjust the power/performance. With Windows, specifically Vista I can adjust this so that some high CPU tasking programs will not boil the computer. Not too mention the fact that more than often wireless will simply not work, or it will require a unacceptable amount of time to get working. Last Ubuntu I tried I became simply aggravated after spending too much time getting the wireless to work, only to find it would not stay connected to an AP using any encryption after 1-2 minutes. Maybe this is acceptable to geeks who enjoy playing around, but for most people who have better things to do with their life this is not the solution.
I think it is becoming more and more likely that Vista is the new Me. I have a suspicion that Windows 7 will not be as radical a change. I think it will include GUI changes, a few new features, but for the most part will be underneath Vista with everything working the way it should be. Performance wise I do not see Vista as that much of a hog. My issue is the OS at times just seems to hang or require an inordinate amount of time to do what would usually be a simple task. Almost as if the OS has to decided first whether to do this action or not. Once it does get going it will be fast. Examples would be opening some programs, going to a network share, deleting a range of files, etc..
Notes/Domino? What year are you living in? 1999?
Well, I don’t want to turn this into a platform war, but I have to ask; what games are you playing and why don’t you just get a console and a really good television? for me, I purchased a MacBook, and for my games (I love old school arcade games) I have a Nintendo Wii.
You’re better off just doing the same.
Because some/all of the games he likes does not exist on any console?
Some games just are annoying, or downright impossible, to play well with a gamepad. And as he said he likes keyboard+mouse combination. I happen to like that combo too, it allows me to play certain games not available for consoles or that just aren’t as entertaining on consoles due to worse control scheme. Consoles do have a lot of good sides to them too and there’s also a whole lot of games there that aren’t available on a PC, my personal favorites on PS2 are God Of War 1 && 2 and DBZ: Budokai Tenkaichi 2.
Control scheme is a big part of it for me too, and I’ve got other reasons. I like modding things (or playing with stuff someone else modded). Unreal Tournament 3 on PS3 is showing it can be done on consoles .. sorta. All the creation is still done on PC, and at least at first there were no custom sounds possible on PS3 due to some goofiness with Sony not wanting anyone to be able to create ATRACs. And UT3 is still the exception.
Then there are the scores of old games I still enjoy: Deus Ex, Jedi Academy, Capture the Flag (Carr software), Major Stryker etc etc.
PCs just where it’s at for me and gaming, for the previously listed reasons and because I don’t know that I have the free time to justify a machine that does nothing but games
It really is a full media computer meant to complete one’s modular entertainment system setup. The games are definatly a big focus of the design but after having the chance to muck with a friends machine; wow. If I had the budget there would be one beside my ps2 at home already. It still won’t replace gaming on a hombuilt rig but Sony has put together a serious media server.
I have to rent that for my ps2 some time soon. Can you imagine how good it could be as a 3rd person mouse/keboard controlled game though? My personal favourite is still the last Jedi Knight as I’ve not found anything yet that offers the same freedom of control and movement by mouse/keyboard combined with a great melee dueling movements. I don’t think the online version that took over the series even offers the same player control over saber use.
As a gamer since before Internet Killed the BBs Scene (you can guess the tune), I feel your grief all too well. Gaming is the only thing keeping a Windows boot on my workstation these days. Until recently, gaming was the benchmark for each new system build because anything that could push a modern game would likely have no trouble with the other 95% of how I explore the true limites beyond manufacturer’s intended use. Unless game developers pull MS thumb out of there collective @’s, it’s likely I’ll eventually have too obtain a license for Vista. I hope by that time, either DX10 is released for winXP or game developers realize the untapped market that is nonMS platform gamers.
Even as a gamer since Jet Fighter, Usurper and LORD where cutting edge, I have to agree with the first reponse too your comment though; you only feed the monster by stealing it’s wares (note the lack of “z”). Microsoft used to happily turn a blind eye too personal piracy while laughing all the way to the bank. It was a key business strategy used to optain the market share they now abuse. I suspect that they still do as much as they can without making it obvious; the proffit loss is probably even included as an expense under the marketing budget.
You have a Vista license and probably a working, if not legal, copy of winXP so your all set for the forseable future. Heck, even with current games, winXP is still the better platform and, ironicaly, the thinnest layer of crap you can put between your hardware and your game. (Crysis may require me to have DX10 with the next hardware build, sadly.)
The better way is to vote loudly with your wallet. Show the game developers that hocking there wares (again, no “z”) outside of the MS platform is worth there while; email, write and ask when the release for XYZ will be available.
I also might point out that your comment provides MS enough reason to come asking for a license audit. I’m sure someone there reads this site daily as part of there job.
You only feed the monster and promote it’s abismal business practices by helping to spread it’s crapware and retain it’s market share. Ironically, you do so by speaking it’s own language too.
Just my two cents, since you made it an internationally public discussion.
Don’t lower yourself to Microsoft level.
Why is that?
Just look at China. A complete Windows monopoly, and nobody pays for the software! They have dug themselves into a hole whereby IE has a complete monopoly and *has* to be used to do any kind of secured online work like banking. This has massive economic impact as it kills innovation. For all the security holes and problems with Windows, China can do nothing. Great products like Firefox that have changed the online world for millions, cannot take hold in China.
Had the Chinese run with Linux 10 years ago, instead of pirating Windows, then they would have a system that they could adapt to meet their economic and cultural needs and problems could be rectified at the core instead of trying to patch on top of Windows. Innovation would be much more buoyant by having the country running on a system anybody could improve and contribute to.
For Joe Average that would have sucked pretty hard 10 years ago.
10 years ago the Internet population on China would have been minute in comparison to the west. So whilst they would have been behind in a ways back then, it would have only affected a few. By now they would be miles ahead. It is better to start on the right course slowly, than sprint a hundred miles an hour in the wrong direction.
China had no choice but to move this fast due to their industrial revolution. They needed access to relatively good software, fast.
Cost is not a factor here, since they’ve pirated it.
Linux 10 years ago was nowhere near as mature as Windows was. It didn’t have any mature software, it was much more difficult to use than Windows and wasn’t anywhere near as compatible on hardware as Windows.
Hindsight is a great thing, but keep some perspective. You cannot ‘sell’ people on something that doesn’t exist in the promise that in 10 years from now it’ll be better. They needed something more than 10 years ago and Linux simply wasn’t as mature at that point in time.
The quality of Windows verses Linux can be debated all year without a result.
All true. The fact still stands that China pirates more than anywhere else in the world. Whilst my point about Linux isn’t all that practical in reality; I was trying to illustrate how pirating only hurts the populous, and not the company being pirated.
Yeah, remembering my first failed attempts to get Slack and some other early distros to boot; it would have sucked for Joe Average provided the computer retailers where not doing there job of providing a usable and configed OS with there prebuilt machines.
It may also have sucked less though in terms of time. Think how fast it could have evolved with all those average users asking for refinements. The huge malware market that now supports many very intelligent software developers could have also been put to better use before malware became such a booming source of profit.
It’s all “what if” now though so all we can do is watch how fast FOSS projects continues to evlove as market share grows.
Are you suggesting that the ‘problems’ with China are due to Windows or Microsoft and that Linux would solve them all?
That sounds pretty ridiculous, insulting even to the people of China.
The Chinese government will simply ban the use of Windows when they are ready. China was the overwhelmingly dominant global economy for 2500 years until 1840. For most of that time they were the biggest, richest and most technologically advanced nation on Earth. They are now simply returning to their normal position after a ‘temporary’ setback.
Never say never. Things move very slowly in China — glacially slow — as the install base becomes more educated and tech-saavy, their tastes and interests will evolve.
Because it increases their market penetration. How’d you think they got as big as they are? Software sales? No way Jose, rampant piracy helped MS become what they are today.
That still doesn’t explain how it makes someone a muppet. Choice is available. People choose to ignore it.
My point was that people are muppets for believing that they are in someway harming Microsoft by using a *pirated* version of Windows.
People have the full right to choose, and those that go out and purchase a legal copy of Windows because that’s what they wish to use are in no way a problem, or any different from those who actively choose to use Linux or a Mac.
If your intention is to “stick it to the man”, the best way of doing so is usually not to help the man get bigger.
/+1.
Up until Windows XP, MS effective did it’s best to help home/small business piracy by their decision to avoid using any type of “piracy” defense. (Heck, I’ve seen computer games with better piracy defenses).
Only when they needed to start defending their market share (as opposed to gaining new grounds) they added the dreaded activation process.
– Gilboa
Edited 2008-03-10 11:24 UTC
I remember in the early 90s reading that there were several million copies of Word in use in Russia. There had been only *one* legal copy of that version sold in the country. MS seemed quite unperturbed.
Because Microsoft would *far* prefer that you pirate Windows than to use an OS which is not Windows. The overwhelming desktop mindshare that they command is their most valuable asset. It’s the foundation upon which their monopoly stands.
Piracy of Windows and Windows applications is arguably the most powerful force holding back the adoption of FOSS. So if you *are* pirating it, you’d better not let me know. Because I’ll be on the phone to the BSA in a minute. And I’ll bet I’m not the only one around here who feels that way.
If you are going to use software… and I don’t care if it’s Windows, Mac, Linux, *BSD or whatever… respect the license terms and play by the rules.
Edited 2008-03-10 13:45 UTC
Why play by the rules? I agree with when it comes to Linux, the BSDs and possibly Mac, but Windows? It’s not like MS plays by the rules without being kicked up the rear end now, is it?
I do agree with your statement that piracy of MS software is a large contributer to the slow adoption of FLOSS, but it’s far from the only one.
Anyway, to someone like me who has just been ripped off, I feel quite justified in returning the favor, thank you very much! 😉
Far be it from me to defend MS unless I have no choice, but…
They do the work. They pay their employees well. They hold the copyrights. They put a price tag on their work and sell it. And they are entirely within their rights to do so. They are not cheating anyone who chooses to use Microsoft products.
They do shaft their competitors. And they screw over people who do not want to commit entirely to using their products and their products alone. Those are the people who have a legitimate gripe; And the logical course of action for them is to fight MS’s mindshare and do the best they can with other alternatives… not help Microsoft maintain its mindshare.
People who refuse to respect the license granted by the copyright holder are cheaters. And people who pirate Microsoft’s or any other commercial software, are cheaters and freeloaders. Pure and simple.
Edited 2008-03-10 14:14 UTC
I agree in spirit, but in practice what you say is an over simplification.
MS’s, and many other vendors, EULAs actually ask me to give up fundamental rights that I as a European citizen are entitled to. I don’t agree with MS’s EULA, nor should I be forced to. In fact, for MS to even ask me to either agree or not use their software at all is actually not enforceable in any European court.
Should I, and every other European, stop using proprietary software because of such clauses? That would be daft and it would quickly bring the EU to it’s knees.
But all of that is beside the point. Vista is a rip off, I have been ripped off! It is my choice that, from this day forward, every time I choose MS software for my PC gaming platform, I will pirate their software. I refuse to be ripped off again.
And while we’re at it, it’s not like am gonna feel any different. I’m already being treated like a criminal.
These are things which your EU (unlike the political sock-puppets in my country) are trying to address, issue by issue.
I am less interested in the legal subtleties than I am in *right* and *wrong*. Nebulous concepts, yes. But the right of a legitimate copyright holder to determine the terms under which others can use his work seems a very basic principle to me.
I am not exactly a gamer. But I do love my FPS’s. And I *never* violate licenses to play them. Very occasionally, there might be a game which I would like to play, but which would involve my going against my principles. So I sigh, decide to forgo the game, and go on. And I do not feel deprived; I feel enrichened.
I’m sorry mate, but as far as I am concerned, asking me to give up rights that I am entitled to, just because some company feels they own a certain expression of information, is not only greedy, but it doesn’t get any more wrong than that.
I understand what it is you are trying to say but I respectfully disagree with how you are applying your standards for morality.
I’d be more willing to go along with your ideas if the copyright system was not so blatantly raped by these companies time and again. Just the fact that these people say they own this information, a blatant lie that just needs a quick look into the reasons why copyright law was setup in the first place, to disprove, is enough for me to treat them like the criminals they are, for not only are they stealing from one or two people, they are stealing from all of us.
For these companies to then turn around and ask my fellow human beings and I to give up more rights, just so that they can further feed their already bloated margins, is a slap in the face and I, for one, feel perfectly justified in ripping them off in turn.
Just my €0.02 😉
But you are not ripping them off. You’re helping them. By spending your time honing your skills on *their* software instead of on another platform, you are indirectly helping them. When you go online and interact with other people using their software, in a gaming arena , or help forum, you are helping them maintain their mindshare and dominance. You are helping them to do the things which you so dislike.
Just say ‘no”. Giving up a few games won’t kill you.
And you might bring your concerns about the EULAs to the attention of the EC. They seem to listen.
The truth will set you free! 🙂
Giving up a few games might be ok for you, but for me it’s just not gonna happen. I started with gaming and I refuse to let some greedy corporation take that away from me.
When I play games online, which I do less and less these days, I have yet to let on which platform I use. I also only use windows for gaming. I’m not in the least bit interested in honing my skills for the Windows platform as I see it as a dead end, especially in my job.
I really don’t see where you get off repeatedly telling me to stop doing something I like doing for some nebulous, badly defined reasons, when I have quite clearly stated some very concrete reasons to keep doing exactly what I am doing. It ain’t rocket surgery you know 😉
Please understand that I am not telling you not to do things with you enjoy. I am pointing out that you are helping, and not shafting, MS when you do them. If the game only runs well on Windows, then your very presence in that game’s online arenas, worlds, whatever, is a vote for using Windows.
I very respectfully suggest that while you are free to do as you please, the consequences are what they are, and I can only tell you, honestly, that I think that the consequence is that you are playing right into Microsoft’s hands. I wish you wouldn’t do that. But as you surely must realize, I do not get all anal when it comes to FOSS vs Proprietary. I strongly prefer FOSS. But when people make informed decisions to use proprietary software, I have no choice but to respect that. I *do* have a problem with all the people who make uninformed choices. But I am not accusing you of that. Most of us here have a pretty good grasp of what is going on in the world of computing. We differ in our interpretations of what the events mean. But I would not presume to know better than anyone else what is good for them. I’ll leave that to Gates, Jobs, and Stallman.
However, I *will* speak out regarding my own interpretation when I sense that a friend thinks he is working against something, when in fact I strongly feel that he is working *for* that very thing.
But… I have already done that. Possibly to excess. And it would be a good time for me to stop. 🙂
But that’s my whole point. I’m not saying I’m giving MS the shaft, that was just Kroc misunderstanding my post and inadvertently putting words in my mouth, I’m saying that I refuse to pay for MS software anymore; No more, no less.
Few! Well, at least we got that one sorted out 😉
Well, getting back to the subject at hand… I want to see some more of those embarrassing emails MS is trying to avoid having exposed! 🙂
You’d think they would have learned not to exchange potentially embarrassing material via email by this time, as many times as they’ve been burned in the past. Who says MS learns from past mistakes? 😉
It’s funny now you mention it, but considering all the stuff coming out of the wood work due to email, it seems only the Whitehouse has actually learned anything… 😉
What? Did they go back to using cassette tapes? 😉
Edited 2008-03-10 16:51 UTC
I believe they are bound by corporate and business law too keep a record of all communications among other things. I know the reason companies have been slow to addopt IM use inhouse is due to requirnments to keep an audit trail. The IM clients that are becoming usefull in big businesses seem to be the one’s that provide proper logging directly.
Stupid was discussing it over email but retaining the email is a requirnment they can’t avoid.
I thought it might be a good time to summarize all the reasons no both sides but please correct the list as needed:
Reasons for theft (copywrite infringement is theft)
– desired form of entertainment is only supported by DX10/DX09 on Windows platform
– self-righteous feeling entitlement after choosing to pay for windows and feeling ripped off
– feeling of causing harm to company through vengeance of not paying for future products
– local law does not support EULA
Reasons against theft (software piracy is copywrite infringement and so, is still theft)
– Premotes the current lock-in of local and online gaming under one platform
– maintains it’s mindshare by promoting the spread of it’s products
– theft of there product by an individual does not effect there profits or achieve one’s need for vengeance
– harms the overall European market place by not showing reasons to consider alternatives for game platforms
– promotes business practices of company by maintaining it’s dominance
– promotes the cracking/malware markets (you will need to crack the license checks after all)
– morally wrong since company did develop the software as a product not to give away
If I missed any points on either side, please add to the list.
I do understand your reasons and did empathize with them far closer in a far off time called highschool. I also have watched what MS has done to the software market for the last thirty years. Your argument regarding law is very valid except that the EU does respect copywrite. If it’s perfectly legal under European law then please call your local version of the BSA and have them come in and audit your software library. While understanding your personal reasons, the reasons against such a choice are far from nebulous; ask Netscape, Apple, IBM, Novell, OpenGL how very real some of those reasons are. Try talking to the owner of Visio or Frontpage before they where bought. Try asking a few of the many people who have tried to implement standards only to find out that Microsoft has “extended†the standard and is the only one who can legally interact with the MS version of it now.
You are still free to choose as you will and I haven’t the history (we where all stupid highschool kids once) to condemn anyone over software copywrite even having matured beyond Larva. Calling the arguments you’ve been presented with “nebulous†at best is borderline delusional though. I realize your holding on to your preferred form of recreation for dear life but pretend that it isn’t just about video games and consider both sides as a third party.
Ultimately, you will do as you choose like anyone else is free to do; Just understand that your need for instant gratification has consequences even excluding the morally right or wrong arguments.
You have the “right” to install purchased software on a single machine. You don’t have a “right” to pirate it freely.
MS’s, and many other vendors, EULAs actually ask me to give up fundamental rights that I as a European citizen are entitled to. I don’t agree with MS’s EULA, nor should I be forced to. In fact, for MS to even ask me to either agree or not use their software at all is actually not enforceable in any European court.
Atleast here in Finland all such EULAs are completely null and void, there isn’t any reason actually to even read them cos they will not hold in court (there was a court case a few years back actually, the company lost the case). But that wasn’t even the point here..The point here was that you just are doing wrong when you are pirating stuff, and I agree here. I do think stealing is wrong, and in the case of Microsoft it only helps them. First of all, the price of Vista is so low that none of the execs at Microsoft would care even if you handed 100 copies of Vista over to your friends. They’ll earn tens of thousands every month anyway. So, who are you exactly hurting when you pirate Microsoft software? Not the execs atleast.
Anyway, not everyone working for Microsoft is bad. There’s hundreds of people working there who would actually want to do what’s best for the end-user and such, but of course they will do what they are paid to do or they’ll get fired.
My suggestion is that if you really wanna pay Microsoft back for being “ripped off” then find a way which they might even care about.
Wow, back up there mate. Since when is piracy stealing?
To steal something from someone, I have to actually deprive them of it. By your words, no MS exec is gonna miss the money I could have spent on a license, so what is your point?
I’m treated like a criminal even if I do buy the license (WGA and activation anyone?), so why should I bother my ass and prove them wrong by buying a license when they so blatantly rip me off?
You can think it’s wrong all you want, but I’m for sure sticking to my guns on this issue!
I agree that duplicating software should not be theft and the truly nebulous BS that is IP (meant to confuse copywrite and patent law) should be severly questioned.
Consider RIAA, to get away from the software for a moment. RIAA and the media monopolies are unquestionably consumar hostile. RIAA sueing children and grandmothers is rediculious. The US “mellenium act” law meant to block decryption of communications and military algarithms has been abused as a work around too the legal right of fair use of media one may legally own license too. The 2% of revenue that the artist who created the works may get after paying off the investment (read loan) of the media company is horrible. The cost of a ticket for a movie at the theater is bordering on blatant robbery; 15$’ish for a movie ticket? The irony is that ticket sales go directly too the movie company while the theater showing the movie makes it’s money only off the confectionary and other after ticket sales.
The effect on the media market due to heavy handed tactics and media monopolisation is hundreds of CD, DVD and Movies that are all the same damn thing rerun through the processing filters and sold again and again at higher prices each time. (Disney’s move XYZ is coming back out of the vault, if you haveit already.. not good enough.. you gotta have this latest duplication so open your wallet sucker.) If it’s not a direct repruction of the latest popular retro TV show or last year’s blockbuster with slightely different scenery, then it’s gotta be a fluff filled CG extravigansa. How many very good movies and music tracks get ignored because they don’t apear to an executive as a sure thing too invest in?
You can probably tell I’m a big RIAA supporter.
However, with all those reasons to pilfer every movie or music track they produce,the argument is simply; the product was never produced to give away. There was never a board meeting where the executives said “yeah, leak that great blockbuster too the internet so no one has to pay us for it”. There is no valid argument that justifies having an unlicensed copy of there media. I have yet to hear any reason that was not self surving rationalization and that includes all the reasons I’ve thought up.
In computer terms, it is simply the duplication of an order of “on or off” bits. However, it was produced as the product. It was copywrited, price tagged and sold. Unless one owns the license too that copywrited material, they are stealing it.
To go back to the software side, when you can’t pay for a game, will it be ok to just run out and steal a copy of it? Maybe you’ll pick a box off the shelf at the store (stealing from the retailer and the developer) or maybe you’ll duplicate a friend’s copy (stealing from your friend and the developers). If you choose to buy a game and it just downright sucks (maybe Duke Nukem 2000 if it ever turns up), will you then be entitled to steal any future products the game developer may produce. Will that somehow stick it too the man and make them put more budget into the next game? It’s all just software after all so when does it become not ok? How long is your prefered game developer going to continue producing games in this case?
I personally prefer permissive licenses over lock-in licenses and will have to do some thinking when my license of winXP is no longer able to push the games my hardware can. I’d love to see patent reform and copywrite returned to it’s original purpose of protecting the little company from monopolies. I hope the EU can effect the changes in it’s market place that the US Gov didn’t have the balls to effect in it’s own.
The simple fact remains; the developer released there product under a license and copywrite. The license may suck rocks but the copywrite is very valid.
If Windows isn’t doing it for you, then please just choose an alternative. There has been no better time in recent memory to run an OS that is not Windows.
Microsoft respects the licenses of other groups of people (including the GPL… we’re pretty cautious about insulating ourselves from Open Source code so that no one can accuse us of stealing it). By the same token, you should respect Microsoft’s licenses. I’m fairly confident that pirating software is not legal in the country you live in, and more importantly it is not something to be proud of on an internet forum.
I for one, am not calling you a criminal. I’d just like to fully discuss why you should choose not to behave like one by ignoring copywrite. Ultimately, what you choose to do with your hardware and software should be up to you. Just realize that you won’t get any public support for the decision from anyone past the age of Larva, especially the Hacker community.
Corporations are like small children but with far bigger bank accounts. If you turn a blind eye to the child’s behavior you only premote it.
The simple fact is that by stealing MS products, you are not effecting there profit margin in any noticable way while helping maintain there monopoly market share and premoting there abusive business practices. “he only hits me whan I make him angry” doesn’t cut it.
If your going to choose MS products, you are more than free to do so but that also means accespting the drakonian licenses they come with. What reason does MS have to ever put interest into product quality and good business practices when the consumers continue to turn a blind eye to the child’s bad behavior?
If you must have Windows, they buy it just like you may buy Mandriva Poweruser or any other platform. If your not going to buy it, use something else and show the game developers that you are ready and willing to fill there pockets with your hard earned money if they kick the MS crack pipe.
Historically, theft of there products for home use was a big help in gaining the market share they now have. Dos was handed from one person to another and while MS publicly denounced it, they had to be laughing too the bank while watching there market grow. Office, sure they sold it to businesses but the stolen installs on personal machines was a big part in solidifying there dominant place. Windows, yeah, it got handed around plenty.
What of Mr. Gates letter to the homebrew club? “What you do when you share software is theft.†Sure, it denounced the sharing of software and free ideas so that MS could create a new market (hardware was the product at the time). It also provided great publicity for the young and failing software company when it was still trying to get noticed. Conflict is second only to sex if you want advertising and attention from the news media.
Now that they have a solid market base here, they scream and denounce piracy while including ever more draconian but useless safe guards against it. How loudly are they denouncing piracy in markets where they are still trying to gain a foothold? They didn’t start making noise in China until after Windows was widely installed. They cut the cost of a Windows (3rd world edition) license in India as a direct result of loosing market share to better alternatives. I’m sure they would have sat quietly waiting for the illegal copies to grow it’s market share before moving in otherwise.
One can call MS many things (I do) but one can’t question there strength in marketing, business strategy and litigation. They new full well the value of complaining just enough about product theft to save face while allowing it to spread there roots out under whatever market they where going after.
Theft of windows only helps increase there market share and potential for publicity in the news as the victim. In the end, it is just another way of promoting there shoddy product quality and abusive business practices.
Non-sequitor. How is the Vista-capable marketing campaign even related to your whine of “such shoddy service?”
Windows for the desktop and Windows for the server.
That would have been a much better start. Then not caving into the need to sell more hardware would have made this lawsuit not even a thought.
sorry for the freaking huge posts in this one all. It’s a topic that’s come up too many times to count and one that seems to hit a neurve.