And the back-and-forth goes on. “Here we go again. Apple has updated iTunes to version 9.0.2 and Palm Pre sync is dead again using webOS 1.2.1, despite Palm’s Hurculean efforts to spoof nearly every aspect of USB identification known to mankind. As with previous breakages, iTunes does launch when you connect a Pre with Media Mode, but it doesn’t appear as a device on the sidebar. Pre owners can at least take comfort in knowing that Apple’s main goal here was adding support for the new AppleTV format, but breaking Pre sync support was a nice cherry for them.”
I hope every update to iTunes breaks it.
I hope so too – it’s great to watch Apple scrambling around reactively trying to break interoperability, all the while failing to realize that they’re giving a giant middle finger to any OS X users who also own a Pre.
Hopefully all OS X-using Pre owners will get tired of Apple’s anti-competitive antics and ditch Apple cold turkey.
Yup, they’re running scared alright.
http://daringfireball.net/linked/2009/10/19/apple-q4-2009
Something tells me they’re just doing it to piss off Palm. and Palm deserves it.
Palm should consider developing their own music app or using an open source one, like everyone else. This nut-hugging off of Apple is getting absurd.
Yup, they’re running scared alright.
http://daringfireball.net/linked/2009/10/19/apple-q4-2009 [/q]
Don’t worry, they’ll find some way to screw it up. Apple always does.
Or, and this is just thought, mind you: Apple could stop abusing their position in the MP3 player market for anti-competitive purposes, and allow iTunes to work with 3rd-party software.
Something tells me Palm’s just doing it to piss off Apple. and Apple deserves it.
I hope regulators apply the same standard to Apple that they do to Microsoft. It’s amazing how much more tolerant users (and governments) are with Apple than they would be with Microsoft.
There will never be a level playing field where the government is involved.
they really think that Apple wants everything closed because Apple believes in high quality
By quality, you mean price, right?
Apple doesn’t hold a commercial monopoly (remember, a monopoly doesn’t have to be 100% market share!) with any of the following products:
* OS X
* iTunes
* iPhone
Where as Microsoft /DID/ (and still does) hold a monopoly with Windows.
Apple aren’t even being anti-competitive either as nobody has forced Palm into using iTunes as theres plenty of other options on the market that are popular and work just as successfully.
And finally Apple aren’t breaking USB spec guidelines to enforce their position.
In fact, quite the opposite – Palm are the ones cheating the system a little here.
In this instance, Apple are entirely acting morally and legally correct (and this is coming from someone who’s usually the 1st to comment negatively on Apples business practices).
For the record though – I don’t entirely disagree with Palms actions either. Though they maybe breaking USB spec, it’s a guideline and not a contract / legal obligation. They’re also not in breach of copyright nor any other law.
So their iTunes hack is “fair game” as far as I’m concerned.
*HOWEVER*, I do think it’s Palms customers that ultimately loose out in this cat-and-mouse game (which leads me nicely onto my final point):
The crux of the matter is this: has Palm made sufficient provisions for alternative methods of syncing outside of iTunes?
* If this is the case, then this whole scuffle is nothing more than two large companies “facing-off” for publicity.
* If Palm haven’t made provisions, then what they’re doing is nothing short of neglecting their customers.
Edited 2009-10-30 12:28 UTC
The stock response from Maclots is that different rules apply to Microsoft because they hold a monopoly position in the OS market. And while Macs & OS X aren’t even close to monopoly domination, the same can’t be said for the iPod and iPhone.
It’s fun to watch the fanbois give completely different characterizations of Apple’s position in the smartphone market depending on the context. When they need a pretense to brag, they paint Apple as the only significant player in the market, with a few minor competitors who lag wayyyyyyy behind. But raise the specter of monopoly abuse, and all of a sudden Apple is just a single player in a healthy and diverse market.
So the iphone now commands 90% of the phone market? Interesting..
Just a week or so ago, I saw an opinion piece stating numbers that Apple had barely any market share in the broader phone marker and a decent slice of the smart phone market.
Since Nokia owns so much of the smart phone market, I guess they have a monopoly. I’ve seen them painted as the saviours of humanity recently. (I tried their netbook the other day and it’s quite nice, if expensive. It almost makes me forget how bad my Nokia phone is.)
Should Apple open up iTunes? Yes. If they can allow third parties to use iSync, they could allow third parties to use iTunes, despite its purpose of enabling a seamless experience for iPod and iPhone users.
Should Palm and others do something else? I believe that they should all dive into Songbird and make it what iTunes could have been. That could make Apple open iTunes to outsiders.
Actually, no one is stopping Palm from making their own conduit connector package for iTunes. iTunes has an open plugin/connector facility, iTunes itself does not have to be opened to anyone in that way.
There are 3rd party devices that can plug in with iTunes no problem.
What Palm is trying to do IMHO, is trying to save the cost and simply piggyback their device with iTunes via forged USB IDs. Frankly, I don’t just find such approach childish, but grossly unprofessional. It reeks of desperation.
Frankly, I find Apple’s misuse of USB IDs to prevent interoperability both childish and against the spirit of the law, which explicitly provides for reverse engineering of interfaces for interoperability purposes– in short, reprehensible.
Apple’s misuse of IDs is a kind of behavior that has been taken to court at least twice that I know of (printers; garage door openers), and it has lost both times.
i won’t stick up for apple.
however, if the government were actually doing anything beyond occasional wrist-slapping, microsoft would’ve (and should’ve) been split up a decade ago.
Edited 2009-11-01 19:41 UTC
It’s a complex problem. But one thing that we need to address is our bizarre concept of the “Corporation”. Fundamentally, it was supposed to be a way of creating a fake “person” who could hold assets and conduct business, in order to shield the real investors from liability for the consequences of their actions. A questionable practice. But at least not an insane one. We’re not so deranged as to give this fake person the vote… and yet we allow them to make campaign contributions, which gives this “person” far more political power than any vote would have. It’s insane.
Sure, if the practice were outlawed there would be ways around it. But we’ve got to start somewhere. And then address the loopholes.
Edited 2009-11-01 20:26 UTC
Why should OS X users who own a Pre ditch OS X? I assume most Pre owners/iTunes users run Windows.
Besides, one doesn’t need to update iTunes. I have an iMac G3 and a G4 who both run older versions of iTunes. Pre owners just shouldn’t update their iTunes until Palm has figured out to get their devices to synch again.
Stop the Apple is Evil Whining… This a Palms fault. I am sorry but making a competing product and hacking it so it looks like an iPod is very unethical business behavior. This is OK if the individual does it to their own pre. But for Palm to do the Hack themselves then market it as iTunes compatible is unethical, and palm is forcing their customers to have a poor experience with their device.
Sure the customer would like any device to work with iTunes. However this is Apple business decision to keep locked down.
Nope. Only with iTunes sync.
Thanks god, there is more in a Pre than an unperfect masquerading iTunes-locked music player.
Which is very similar to tying iTunes with Apple devices, which may break EU market rules regarding tied sales.
Notice I’m not saying Palm isn’t breaking any EU market rules itself, too.
Edited 2009-10-30 14:18 UTC
Don’t look now, but no one said anything about them being evil.
Someone needs a refresher on basic reading comprehension, I see.
The question here is how fair is it on the part of Palm to use iTunes which is an application made by Apple for whatever purposes but syncing the Palm Pre. It’s Palm’s responsibility to design an application that enables Palm Pre users to be able to use their respective phones, just like Blackberry has the ir own software and various other companies have their respective softwares. Using Apple iTunes is not a legal solution, Palm does not have permission to use iTunes software. This is complete cheating on Palm’s part, Palm pre pretending to be iPhone or iPod syncing via iTunes. If Apple were to stop Palm pre developing a Mac version of software that enable Mac users to use Palm pre, that would be anti-competitive. Here in this case Palm is behaving like a small time company that makes fake iPhones that one can sync through iTunes softwares, Palm is bigger and better than that. Just my opinion.
The iPod has 70%+ market share, and officially only syncs with iTunes, which has lead to large-scale iTunes adoption.
This iPod-iTunes-iTunes Store bundle has created a market where rival hardware manufacturers, rival MP3 player software, and digital music stores are each at a huge disadvantage and has lead to Apple’s domination of each these markets.
Why aren’t regulators doing anything about it?
Edited 2009-10-30 06:35 UTC
It’s not a Monopoly.
Assuming the earlier poster’s numbers are correct, it has higher market share than Internet Explorer. Shouldn’t it follow that IE attract lesser regulation than iPod stack? What about an “iPod syncing tool ballot screen”…?
Of course Apple has a monopoly on digital music distribution, as well as mp3 players. Internet Explorer and Windows is happening all over again before our very eyes, and nobody is doing anything about it. Somehow, everybody is perfectly happy handing a monopoly to a company who will most likely abuse it harder than Microsoft ever has.
Well, at least it ensures the DOJ and the EC have something to do 5 years from now.
Edited 2009-10-30 11:06 UTC
Windows is happening all over again before our very eyes, and nobody is doing anything about it.
Maybe that is because Apple is still riding on their accumulated cool factor. Apple is still perceived as the underdog. The little company that thought different and delivered unique products in the face of a humongous IBM Compatible PC onslaught.
Never mind that Apple is neither little nor cool nor unique anymore. It is a controlling behemoth on the “integrated player with music store” market and it is carving out a sizable chunk of the phone market and even Macs are increasingly on the rise.
But as long as Apple delivers that “Ooh shiny” experience they will be forgiven for their Big Brother antics. It is simply not done to criticize the “cool kid”.
In your post, you say Apple is _not_ cool anymore, and then say people avoid criticising Apple because it’s cool!
I’m confused.
Not really forgiven, while I own macs, I did not opt for an iphone for my next phone, I went with android instead. Why? I simply cannot stand the big brother behavior apple has regarding the iPhone.
Apple does not have a monopoly on digital music distribution or on mp3 players. A large market share does _not_ equal a monopoly. Apple would have a monopoly if they could set the terms on which anyone could buy mp3s. The record labels have that power, and there are many stores with a selection just as big as iTunes. There is also nothing wrong with Apple enjoying the fruits of them having invested a lot of money to come up with iTunes/iPhone.
Good to know – because, by that standard, Microsoft wasn’t (and isn’t) a monopoly either. Microsoft has never had the ability to set the terms on which anyone could by computers or even operating systems.
Neither is Windows but that hasn’t stopped the regulators.
This is all bloody childish on Apple’s part. They should stop throwing their toys out of their pram everytime. I used to like Apple products but now I am so fed up of…
1) Having to download an 80+mb download just to prevent Palm from connecting to iTunes
2) Having to pay for minor service Packs (10.5 to 10.6) and OS updates (iPod Touch) due to their own bugs.
3) Overly expensive kit because it has a fruit on the cover.
Its about time they realised that its just bad PR on their part.
So protecting your competitive advantage is “throwing your toys out of the pram” now. Some posters here would like us to believe that at some magical point its suddenly not ok to not support other devices with software. Just about every scanner, printer, PDA and mobile phone manufacturer has software they distribute with products that doesn’t support other manufacturer’s devices. Yet supposedly because the devices that ship with those packages haven’t gained the market share the iPod has it’s ok for them to do that – at some magical point it becomes not OK according to some people. So what’s this magical number? Is it being suggested that when they reach this magical number all of a sudden they have to re-engineer their software to support other devices, or that they should allow other devices to masquerade as their product to piggyback off their success?
You don’t HAVE to download it. I haven’t yet installed it and I can still use iTunes to play music and movies, purchase from ITMS / App Store, sync with my iPhone etc. The update is primarily to provide support for the new Apple TV update.
The statement right there indicates a significant level of ignorance. And again, you don’t HAVE to upgrade to 10.6. If you don’t see the value in it stick with 10.5 – or is it that you want the benefits it delivers but just don’t want to pay for them?
Just as a Lexus is nothing more than a Toyota, but people will buy a Lexus because to them they are getting a better overall experience. Better craftsmanship, better materials, nicer form and finish – a better overall package. If you don’t understand these things or they aren’t important to YOU go buy the cheap PC and install OSX on it, or the Pre or Zune or whatever other device you think is actually worth what you’re paying for it. Nobody is forcing you to buy Apple product, it’s a personal choice. If you don’t like the premium that’s attached to it go buy something else and quit the bloody childish complaining…
Uhm, don’t compare Lexus with Apple, please. Lexus has a literally *spotless* quality and service record, and provides what is probably the best customer service of any car company in the world.
Lexus is true premium. Apple is just style. Don’t confuse style with premium.
And contrary to your attempts to project otherwise, countless customer support and service surveys over many years have placed Apple at the pointy end of the pack, and while Lexus have also topped these polls in that industry their lead over their rivals has been nowhere near as decisive as Apple’s over theirs. You use these comparisons when it suits you Thom but don’t like it when others do. I hear people screaming all the time that Apple is nothing more than a standard PC in a flash case, and I hate to burst your bubble but if that’s what Apple is then Lexus is nothing more than a Toyota in a flash case.
My wife works in automotive insurance, and Lexus has by no means a spotless quality and service record. We don’t hear about the Lexus stuff-ups because the majority of people who own a Lexus – and there aren’t near as many of them as those who own Apple’s – are in a place in their lives where they generally don’t major on minor issues.
Further, people complain all the time about the cost of Apple service, yet a tail-light assembly for a top-of-the-line Toyota will set you back somewhere around 4-500 AUD whereas the Lexus equivalent will be at least double that. And if you have an unusual part that needs replacing – something like a rear quarter glass – you could have a wait of 10 to 16 weeks for it to arrive from Japan. No different than Apple on both counts. So please don’t tell me not to make comparison’s in two industries of which I have some knowledge, it can make you look like even more of a goose…
Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, Aston Martin, et al may have something to say about your marketing tirade about glorified Toyotas.
Actually, the main difference between a Lexus and the Toyota platform is based on is styling, and slightly decreased tolerance in QA. Which is ironically Apple’s MO too.
In any case, I fail to see why Apple is at fault for having to support a 3rd party company that is engaged in the forging of USB IDs. As other posters have pointed out, nothing and no one is stopping Palm from developing their own connector module to work as a plugin for iTunes. I think Palm expects apple to support their device off the box just because.
And for anyone without a translator handy, “protecting your competitive advantage” is mealy-mouthed corporate-speak for “anti-competitive practices.”
And tell us: how many other scanner/printer/PDA/mobile phone manufacturers also make a desktop OS and ship said software as the default application? Only Microsoft that I know of. And guess what? WMP works just fine with third-party hardware, rather than being restricted to the Zune the way iTunes is restricted to the iPod.
In other words, Apple is now significantly worse than Microsoft when it comes to locking-out third parties, and locking-in customers to their software. Oh, excuse me, I mean “protecting their competitive advantage.” ™
Sure… if you don’t mind having Apple’s update utility constantly pestering you to download it.
No, you don’t have to… unless you actually want to run software written after the latest version was released, since Apple has managed to break compatibility in some way with every single 10.x release.
And if you’re only interested in having an over-priced fashion accessory or signifier of conspicuous consumption, buy an Apple product.
It’s been about two years since I have tried it (switched to Linux) and I liked musikCube and winamp better on Windows. I got an iPod for opening an account at a bank and I was totally underwhelmed with the whole experience.
I don’t sync my music files, I much prefer drag ‘n drop or copy folders over. But I guess most people don’t keep their folder structure as clean as mine.
Apple has every right to do this and I don’t accuse them (even though I don’t like some aspects of iTunes and stuff). iTunes is only one part of Apple’s product which is iPod-sync-media source.
There has been nothing that has stopped other companies from creating exceptionally sexy and good portable device along with good syncing software and linking to their own/ amazon/whatever store.
Pretty much everybody else has missed the point here. User experience is what counts and all other alternatives suck royally. For this particular reason I still keep a old iPod so I can listen podcasts while driving. Apple allows me to automatically download stuff, sync automatically and remember playback positions. I have tried several other devices, including various mobile phones(don’t like wearing two headsets), but all other vendors have been failing to deliver complete experience and now accuse Apple for abusing monopoly whilst the consumers have voted with their wallets.
So Palm(and others), here’s my advise: develop sexy (not shocking blue, but nice one so that users could not tell it apart from the rest of the desktop) desktop app that kills iTunes in footprint and features whilst being open(let import-export CD’s and other sources) and unobtrusive, make a deal with some digital media vendor and package the stuff – trust me, you get along with your customers better than revers engineering Apple’s stuff.
Oh yes, my next mobile phone is probably going to be iPhone for the reasons I outlined above. I don’t even like it being closed system, fully controlled by the vendor and god forbid, should I upgrade to non OSX system then…
are Palm’s customers, pure and simple. Palm and Apple are both acting like foolish children, though I think Apple is more in the right than Palm is as Apple does provide the ability to access the iTunes library outside of iTunes for syncing with 3rd party apps. Nothing, and I mean nothing, is stopping Palm from writing a sync app that interfaces with iTunes (RIM has already done this) and Apple is under no obligation whatsoever to support other devices in their own software. Honestly, I do not get this mentality. I don’t see anyone complaining that HP provides software that only works with their printers, or Epson providing software that doesn’t support Umax scanners. I could go on and on with a list of software that only supports one device and nobody raises hell over them, but somehow when Apple does it it’s the big, evil corporate giant coming to crush everyone else. Has anyone been crying about Microsoft’s Zune software only supporting Zune devices? Didn’t think so.
So, what do we have? We have Apple continuously locking out iTunes which, while I wish they wouldn’t do it, is perfectly ethical. We have Palm forging USB IDs and repeatedly screwing up their customer’s iTunes experience by insisting on this farce. If I were a Palm customer, I’d be annoyed at Apple but totally pissed off at Palm. The pre is not iTunes compatible, pure and simple, and that is nothing more than misleading marketing. It would be iTunes compatible if Palm wrote their own sync app to interface to your library.
Palm, grow up or shut up.
…That Apple is trying to do whatever they can to continue selling their own hardware, where they make the most money. To do this they need to give the users a good reason to want to own their hardware and that is where OS X/iPhone OS/iTunes comes into play. Of course they are going to try and protect that. I don’t know why people are resorting to name calling (maclot? fanboi?) and getting so worked up over it.
And for the record, I think MS is frequently treated unfairly (despite their past offenses – and punishments)… they are in the position of not controlling the hardware market, but have to adapt software to a wide variety of hardware. They have to make their software appealing enough to encourage people to continue to purchase it (at pretty high prices) because if they don’t, they are out of business. Hence their shenanigans in the past (and probably on-going).
It saddens me to think that there is some poor programmer in Apple that has to spend his or her time trying to break a functionality rather than try to create something of value with their talent. Essentially Apple spent money on developer hours that adds absolutely no value to 99% of the iTunes users. Wouldn’t it be better for company resource to be spent on something more worthwhile like fixing bugs or adding new features that users want?
It is also puzzling to me how many Apple fanboys there are that come out and cheer for Apple when they do this. Why? Since most of the Apple fanboys own an iPhone, the new iTunes without the ability to sync with Palm Pre makes absolutely no difference to their day to day enjoyment of their Apple products. Just to gloat? Just to sneer and snicker at Palm Pre and their users? It just seems childish to me and I’m not talking about Apple, but rather their fervent fans of Apple. I can see why lot of would be converts to Mac platform feel reluctant to or even repulsed to “join the cult” because of this sort of rather childish behavior.
I guess the poor sap at Palm in charge of forging USB IDs to make their device look, walk, and quack like an iPod must be ever so happy his professional career came down to that, eh?
It is my understanding that a lot of developers do this sort of thing in their spare time anyway. The open source industry is built on people who just wanted stuff to work, look at Pidgin, Samba, Gnash and Nouveau (to name a few) for instance.
The question is when you go to work in the morning would you rather be spending better part of the day empowering or disabling?
I know I’d be taking a lot of long (liquid) lunches if I was employed for the latter.