“Macworld Expo in San Francisco is more than a technology convention. It is a personality litmus test, too. […] By contrast, Apple inspires rave reviews. And accounts for only 2.3% of the worldwide computer market, according to research firm IDC. The company blazes forth, but few answer the call.” Read the editorial at C|Net.
Perspective: Macintosh: An Acquired Taste
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
The guy is trying REALLY hard to water down the keynote… its totally obvious what his agenda is.
Typical CNet/ZDNet propoganda
>its totally obvious what his agenda is.
I don’t think so. I ‘know’ Kanellos and his ‘agenda’ for 5 years now. I have even talked to him over the phone a few years ago regarding the news about an x86 CPU bug. I know he has some strings attached to Intel (at least back then he obviously had), but I don’t believe he has any ‘agenda’ against Apple.
“I don’t believe he has any ‘agenda’ against Apple.”
Oh please Eugenia, give me a break… Read the following and try to say that again:
[[[Technically, it was fabulous–and completely impractical. Microsoft’s PowerPoint exists for one reason: Sales representatives use it to lull their audiences into an agreeable mood before asking for money. ]]]
[[[Your company is fabulous, but I can’t stand that little man holding the stopwatch and scratching his head. We’re going to go with the vendor with that Egyptian papyrus theme,” is a statement that will never come out of a corporate buyer’s mouth. ]]]
[[[The uninitiated, though, saw something different: two notebooks. The elegant new PowerBook comes with a 17-inch screen, but it’s not all that different than 16-inch-screen models from Sony and Toshiba. A nearly identically configured Sony Vaio, in fact, sells for $2,699–$600 less than the PowerBook]]]
[[[More important, Apple partisans–and to some degree, the company itself–believe the public should care about things like pixel count, aspect ratio and data transfer rate. ]]]
[[Microsoft and Intel understand this completely. Standards exist in the industry not because of a secret, evil conspiracy. They exist because, in many circumstances, conformity is more important than perfection. ]]]
> Oh please Eugenia, give me a break… Read the following and try to say that again:
I am sorry, but I agree with him.
At a Sun TechDays dev conference in Toronto, Gossling was using a powerbook. Anyway… several times talking to the crowd about products, etc…. he praised Apple with comments like, “it just works.”.
One of his examples was that with his wireless networked powerbook he can just close the lid and system hibernates…. but when he reawakens it in a different locale and a totally different network… it just automatically reconfigures itself to work seamlessly with the network.
Apparently, the MS driven laptops can’t do this.
note: I have no idea about this stuff… just thought I’d add some fodder.
I like a healthy dose of skepticism, but, the release of a wicked keen browser (a little glitchy, but the world was never conqured in beta) and a “power point” style product that on paper offers a lot more versitlity than Power Point, and is going to be sold a lot cheaper than Power Point …
Well, I call it giving Mordor$oft the finger.
The one I looked at, at a local dealer – one of the top models was cheaper than the new Powerbook that’s right – but:
– only 256MB mem not 512MB build in
– only 30GB HD no 60GB HD
– 16,1″ 4:3 TFT high resolution but way to small
for that high resolution, and – of course no 17″ TFT
– no DVD-RW Burner just CD-RW
– crappy ATI Radeon Mobility with 32MB
– no Firewire 2 (800MBits)
– no Gigabit Ethernet
– no Bluetooth
– no 54MBit Wireless Lan
– 2.5h Battery life
The only pro – if that counts 2.4GHz P4. Thats all.
So what the hell ist the ZDNet guy talking about?
Maybe he has absolutely no IT experience.
The reason that every one gets excited with Apple products is because they look great and work great! The reason it doesn’t excite us enough though is that they cost WAAAAY more than other products on the market that do the same thing but are cheaper. We can live with ugly cheap stuff. We don’t NEED it to look pretty as well.
“The reason it doesn’t excite us enough though is that they cost WAAAAY more than other products on the market that do the same thing but are cheaper.
Find me a cheaper laptop that has ALL the same features (sans Mac OS ofcourse) as that of Apple’s various laptops. I’ve done it, and Apple comes in cheaper every time.
It’s no better than the osopinion stream of trolling that passes for a website. Off the bookmark bar comes osnews. Apple is putting new technology on the table and all everyone ever does is bitch. I thought that was a fantastic keynote with lots of great new software and hardware released. If you don’t like it dont fucking use it, it’s as simple as that, but don’t degrade it’s existance because somewhere deep down you’d like to own one but don’t because it’s too expensive or not x or y or z enough for you. Weaksauce.
I work for a school district. I Received a call to go fix a Windows XP machine. It could not print, no network connection, could not use the overhead projector. The teacher had a Machintosh laptop that did all of those things perfectly out of the box. In addition, the software she wanted to use was cross platform. When I arrived to help her configure the PC laptop she stated, “I hate the Machintosh, could you get my PC working?!” I was able to get it working, but I am always puzzled as to why she did not want to use the machine that “Just Works”. It seems that the “Acquired Taste” syndrome does indeed exist. People have preferences. Linux is even harder to get to work yet some people will use Linux before ever using a commercial OS. I don’t know why so many people are so emotional over it. I can do just about anything on any platform. What is the big deal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Actually, once you add up all of the great software and features of an Apple product, it is actually a better deal at that higher price. At least, that’s my perspective.
I have used, fixed and sold PC’s and Mac’s and have owned PC’s for the last 20+ years until last year when I bought a FP G4 iMac. Since then, I haven’t missed my crash prone, slow, Windows XP system. My iMac is fast, elegant, easy and does everything I want to do.
Just my .02 cents…
It is good that there are articles that step outside of the Apple euphoria of the moment. I don’t agree with everything the author said, but it is still worthwhile to ponder his remarks.
The euphoria of the Apple community is part being part of a smaller community that feels they have something of their lives invested in Apple products. Also, it is part of being the underdog.
Even objectively though, what gets my attention is that Apple continues to enhance the great out-of-box experience for users. When Jobs brought out the original iMac in August of ’98, what you got was AppleWorks 5, a couple of games, fax software and maybe Quicken – I can’t quite recall. Along with Outlok Express and I.E. 4 and then 4.5. And that was it. Now look at what the user gets. Things have come along quite a bit since then.
Lastly, although I too find it fun to argue about Windows vs. OS X, Apple hardware, processor speed, etc., it is absolutely important that there be an Apple computer that is healthy and alive and kicking. It is good for the computing world as a whole to have this alternative that helps drives innovation, just as it is important for the OSS movement to continue to flourish. In the big picture, it is good for all of us who love computing.
I don’t see any secret agenda, just a skeptic. And something of a grump.
But how you could report from the expo, and not mention that the 17″ Powerbook features 802.11g and Bluetooth? Or, if you’re going to compare to the Sony VAIO, which he does, FireWire 800 and 4 hr. battery life? Or the back-lit keyboard? Or the design? (As if the Powerbook is $600 more just for kicks.)
Seems like he’s reacting more against the silly RDF-inspired frenzy around him than to the very impressive-looking products themselves.
Pure and simple. He doesn’t get what Apple and the Mac are about. We Mac heads buy our macs because they’re well built, the OS just works without registration, DRM or any other crap. We like perfection, we demand perfection, thats why we bitch about apps that don’t comform to UI guidelines. We like being able to plug in something have it just work. Simplicity, grace and style are what the Mac is about.
Re: “What is the big deal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”
The big deal here is that some news-editors here has a personal disvafor to Apple and ANY things that company do and like to provocate with “news” like that.
The web is full of really positive articles and appraisements about the things Apple rolled out during Jobs keynote-speech.
I wonder why non of THEM pop here up as news….
But, a tip from a long year BeNews & OSNews reader:
Don’t let you bane the sympathy to the people that run this site here – just ignore those news.
After seeing the new powerbook, i’m buying the new 12″ SUPERDRIVE TiBook.
I know it is expensive but it has everything i need and it works out cheaper than a Wintel laptop.
WHY? HOW?
Well…
The new TiBook has the DVD CDRW burning, Bluetooth, Wireless and wired network, low weight, small dimensions, USB, Firewire 400. Once i get all this it will cost me £1700 and this is for the stuff i DO need, not including anything else that i don’t think i need. But take into account the laptop i bought last year you will see that it costs more. I’ve had to spend so far nearly £350 on it, so that it will have network card, firewire, CDRW capabilites, memory upgrade. I want to upgrade the HDD and add wireless networking to it, how much more is it going to cost and still no bluetooth? The bugger weighs a ton as well and thats one of the problems i have with it. Apple can fit nearly everything into such a small form factor and be less than others.
I think the initial cost is more, but over a period of time i think it works out cheaper compared to wintel laptops.
Lets not forget OS X looks absolutly lush and its not something copied from another OS like WinXP.
Also they have just dropped the price on the lower spec laptops that can still win other wintel laptops not just on features anymore.
People need to look into the Apple products some more and realise the supportity like i have done, thats why i’m switching come this March.
People need to dip their toes into more baths to realise that the water isn’t as cold as they think.
If people would like an interesting link then look here… http://macvspc.info/
Uh, Ralf, if you’re trying to make a point that the new PowerBook is superiorly configured to a Sony Vaio, you might want to actually compare comperable systems. Taking a look at Sony’s site, I see a top-end Vaio GRX600 series, which looks like the Vaio you are referring to… but the specs you quote are of a system that’s $1500 less than the PowerBook… which is the lowest-end model of that series. A better comparison could be made to the GRX690, which has 512MB RAM, 60GB hard disk, and a DVD-RW drive included. All for a price that’s still $700 less than the new Powerbook G4.
Granted, the Vaio doesn’t have gigbit ethernet, bluetooth, or higher-speed firewire port built in. It’s up to the user to decide if he/she would need those feature (personally, I wouldn’t).
As for your crack about the IT business… I have a hard time believing that any IT manager anywhere could justify purchasing the new Powerbook given a feature-by-feature comparison to a Sony Vaio like you did. Any IT manager worth his/her salt is trying to get the system that fits a specific job for the least money. Based on just bullet-point features alone, the PowerBook doesn’t look like a winner. What has to win the day is a determination of where in the existing infrastructure a Powerbook fits. Is the user already famaliar with the system? Does the rest of the department use Apple products? Does the platform offer a productivty advantage?
Based on just bullet-point features alone, the PowerBook doesn’t look like a winner.
I disagree
What has to win the day is a determination of where in the existing infrastructure a Powerbook fits.
Seems to me, that it (or any of Apple laptop lineup) fits in just about anywhere a PC laptop fits in
Is the user already famaliar with the system?
What’s new to learn… very little. what little there is, one must consider the fact that Apple leads the pack in ease of use. So this is a moot point.
Does the rest of the department use Apple products?
Does it matter?
Apple integrates in PC networks flawlessly
Does the platform offer a productivty advantage?
In my experience that answer is a resounding YES.
According to some brief internet research, the first mouse was not developed by Apple, but by the “Augmentation Research Center at Stanford Research Institute in Menlo Park, CA” and was first publicly shown in 1968. I don’t know about which home computer had a mouse first, but they were available for Commodore and others.
“…2.3 percent of the worldwide computer market.”
I guess this goes back to the OT discussion under another Apple story below. But I don’t think Apple *intends* to be an elitist computer maker. It’s just the natural result of having expensive hardware, being incompatible with businesses, and poor marketing.
There was a comment by someone at Apple a while back saying that Mercedes has the same market share as Apple, but no one considers Mercedes unsuccessful. If there were only two car makers and one had 95% and the other had 5%, then that would be a relevent comparison.
“…$2,699–$600 less than the PowerBook.”
That’s a significantly larger figure than the “couple hundred” I’ve heard from some Mac users. Has anyone here set up identical systems at Dell and Apple to do a comparison? I’d be curious… Are Macs made-to-order so you can trim out unneeded features that jack up the cost? Firewire 2, Ethernet, Bluetooth, Wireless for instance.
I looked at Macs a couple of years ago, but they cost more and came with less features than similarly-priced PCs. The screens were small, the CD drive wasn’t writable, and there was no floppy – everything had to be bought seperate and added on. I’m going to look at Apple right now and see if I can answer my own questions.
Later,
Bob
For every positive point you and anyone puts up for Apple, there are the same negatives points that counter those good ones.
“It just works” or “Plug and play”, there have been numerous accounts of peripherals such as digital cameras and scanners that aren’t supported in OSX. No plug and play there. Also from my own personal experience, the internal modem of my iMac has never behaved properly since the day I bought it last March. Updates after updates, nothing fixed it. 5 minutes after making a dial-up connection, the animated icon would indicate the connection going down, and that’s while I’m actively surfing the net.
Quality components can be purchased to build a high quality system. Design, style, and overall prettiness is subjective and depends on the viewer’s tastes. So if you haven’t noticed, the link to the article clearly says “Read the editorial at C|Net” the keyword here being editorial. It is a writer’s opinion. He has a right to his own opinion and if he and other people subscribe to those beliefs, that makes it just as valid as your belief that his statements are false or biased.
Obviously it’s an impossible task to design a computer system and OS that appeals to EVERYONE, but Apple seems to be designing their products to appeal to a certain type of people, and switching to the Mac platform requires a lifestyle change to fit the design. Not many people go for that change willingly. By the same token, many people also find that lifestyle change new and refreshing.
Just so we’re clear, I’m taking both sides. I acknowledge the strengths and weaknesses of the Mac platform, but it doesn’t fit my style. I rather use a computer that suits my style instead of changing my ways to fit the computer.
“I don’t think Apple *intends* to be an elitist computer maker.
Apple is not an elitist computer maker
“It’s just the natural result of having expensive hardware
Expensive is a relative term. Expensive compared to what? PC hardware (and software) of lesser quality and producity?
Being incompatible with businesses
Apple is VERY compatible with business.
“and poor marketing.”
Apple has great marketing
” There was a comment by someone at Apple a while back saying that Mercedes has the same market share as Apple, but no one considers Mercedes unsuccessful. If there were only two car makers and one had 95% and the other had 5%, then that would be a relevent comparison.”
How so? As lonbg as the 5% produces a worthy if not superior product… it makes little difference.
” “…$2,699–$600 less than the PowerBook.”
That’s a significantly larger figure than the “couple hundred” I’ve heard from some Mac users.”
One must keep in mind that the origional comparison was flawed to begin with. The PC laptop the author compared it to had far less features. I too could compare the $999 ibook to the laptop he focused on and make the same point, but that too would be misleading.
Has anyone here set up identical systems at Dell and Apple to do a comparison? I’d be curious…
Several times, and Mac laptops are always less expensive when you consider all the hardware, software and support you get. Apple’s laptops are far more competative than their desktop models where Apple is about $200 more expensive for its other benefits over than if a similarly configured PC.
Are Macs made-to-order so you can trim out unneeded features that jack up the cost? Firewire 2, Ethernet, Bluetooth, Wireless for instance.”
Some of it yes, and some of it no. The point is though, that when each laptop is compared side by side with the features that are available, Apple consistenyl comes out less expensive than the competition despite what journalists (I use the term loosly) and FUD posters in open forums like this might say to the alternative
What exactly do you have to change in order to dramatically change your lifestyle? Just curious thats all
“It just works” or “Plug and play”, there have been numerous accounts of peripherals such as digital cameras and scanners that aren’t supported in OSX. No plug and play there.
There are some devices that aren’t supported in the latest version of Windows… does that mean that Windows lacks “plug and play”? i think you’re misunderstanding the term.
“Also from my own personal experience, the internal modem of my iMac has never behaved properly since the day I bought it last March. Updates after updates, nothing fixed it. 5 minutes after making a dial-up connection, the animated icon would indicate the connection going down, and that’s while I’m actively surfing the net.”
Sounds like the problem may either be the user or your ISP as i haven’t heard any mas cries of Mac users experiencing similar problems. To the contrary, most of them rave about the stability and usability of their iMacs
“Quality components can be purchased to build a high quality system.
Unfortunately, most PC users don;t understand this and think that price is the only means by which a PC should be considered when making a purchase and more often than not shoody hardware is used (both by individuals making their own computer as well as most PC manufacturers)
“Design, style, and overall prettiness is subjective and depends on the viewer’s tastes.”
True and yet the majority of consumers tend to appreciate Apple’s sense of style over than of other PC manufacturers
“So if you haven’t noticed, the link to the article clearly says “Read the editorial at C|Net” the keyword here being editorial. It is a writer’s opinion. He has a right to his own opinion and if he and other people subscribe to those beliefs, that makes it just as valid as your belief that his statements are false or biased.”
And its also obvious that his agenda is to water down a spectacular Mac World expo by any means necessary… even if it means using misleading statistics
“Just so we’re clear, I’m taking both sides. I acknowledge the strengths and weaknesses of the Mac platform, but it doesn’t fit my style. I rather use a computer that suits my style instead of changing my ways to fit the computer.”
For me and others among us that appreciate Apple solutions, Apple and its products accomidated me… not the other way around. No lifestyle change was necessary. I wholeheartedly believe that the same would be true for you as Apple makes things easier… not different as you imply.
Looks like in Macworlds Apple trolls flourish
Anyway, I loved this quote from the article: Technically, it was fabulous–and completely impractical. Microsoft’s PowerPoint exists for one reason: Sales representatives use it to lull their audiences into an agreeable mood before asking for money. Is he wrong? 😀 Presentation software took technobabble to new heights, period.
“Presentation software took technobabble to new heights, period.”
If anyone could build a business on technobabble… then it makes sense that Microsoft has been at the forefront so far.
Unfortunately, most PC users don;t understand this and think that price is the only means by which a PC should be considered when making a purchase and more often than not shoody hardware is used (both by individuals making their own computer as well as most PC manufacturers)
ANDDDDDDD this is why Wintels dominate the market…people always want the cheapest while getting the most, not realising the old saying “You get what you pay for”.
If people paid for quality then it raises standards all around, but because of Apple’s market share it seems most people are not bothered anyway.
If apple hardware is so good then why dont they sell anything in europe?
osnews is an apple bashing site, i have concluded.
one thing to ponder is, would the world be better if apple went out of business?
some folks here would think so.
i fail to understand the real dislike folk have for apple products,and the time they spend on forums relating their dislike.a product costs more?
well hell then,crucify em!
i do think the retired (lol) editor here has a real bias against apple.
and obviously the c/net dude has the same bias,for i guess he’s never done educational presentations, had students assigned presentaions, etc.
for a company that has whatever low % marketshare that folk here love to repeat,it sure does generate a disporportioned response.
If apple hardware is so good then why dont they sell anything in europe?
I’m in the UK (which is in europe, as much as they don’t want to) and it seems i stated that i was getting one pretty soon, Apple maybe allow imports from their website.
Listen these notebooks that much of the arguements here revolve around very good except for a somewhat pokey processor and in many ways better than any PC out on the market. The fact is they are over the price that people are willing to pay for a notebook these days.
Bad marketing is partly to blame. They are the BMW of the computer world. If you got the cash, we got the box for you. The problem is that more people will always buy the cheaper box or using the car metaphor more people will always be going for the cheesey cheap Fords and Chevys.
The fun part for PC users is that they can point at both the processor speed and some of the drag still left in the MacOSX gui to make themselves feel better about their choice. Why buy a beautiful box with all that extra stuff if it feels slow and cost more?
BTW, I said no FUD so I will state right now that I understand MacOSX speed improvements will continue to come and the OS part of the speed arguement will eventually go away.
As with any alternative to the WINTEL mainstream, you have to accept that you will be different from at least 95% of every person out there with a computer. This does take a certain type of person to take that on. Of course some people really like that “being different” focus.
The writer’s prejudices come out when he smacks Mac users as all being “graphic artists, freelance DJs and career temp employees”.
Apples cost more. But they have more stuff. They are slower. But they have a beautiful interface. It all depends so much on what you want and if you can take being outside the mainstream.
“Apple is VERY compatible with business”
I have never worked for *any* company that used Macs. Archaeology, construction, mining, etc. Schools don’t even have them anymore. My wife teaches at a middle school where they have dozens of computers, but not a single Mac.
“Apple is not an elitist computer maker”
This goes back to the discussion following a different Apple story at OSNews. In that discussion I was told Apple doesn’t want to sell to people like me, and that they couldn’t care less about users like me. That’s not elitist?!?
“The point is though…”
The point really is, the computer that I need for home use costs much more from Apple.
No one’s mentioned software. The amount of open source or Freeware for Mac is very limited. Commercial software titles have to be special-ordered and cost more, if they’re even available.
It was a funny narrative of the convention, and if someone really “ooh-ed” at an 800mhz processor, they should get smacked. Although I don’t completely understand it, I do know that when comparing equal speed processors the Macs run faster. But I doubt that Mac has anything that compared to the new high-end Intels that are 3+ ghz.
I don’t hate Macs, I even like using the “vintage” Macs I have upstairs. Furhtermore, I’m sure I would love one of the new ones. But they have make a much better attempt at being competitive.
-Bob
bad hair day
It always surprises me when “PC People” bitch about Apple, I find myself wondering one thing, why?
The article does seem to be down on Apple, and I still wonder why “PC People” deride Apple after they release new stuff. I don’t understand why they would waste their time with it if it’s all such crap to begin with.
And another thing, if people want to compare prices they should compare apples to apples (no pun intended). It’s quite hard to do this when a company releases new hardware unless they just do the same thing as anyone else. When a company releases something new that is unusual then it’s hard to do.
In the example used the writer says that you can get a “similarly configured” Sony for $600 less. But this doesn’t take into account 802.11g or BlueTooth. I can live with the other differences (ok the screen does count for something) but in order to have the 11g and BT it would cost a bit more. The author is not taking this into account.
If you’re a “PC Person” then by all means say so and if you hate Apple then say so. If you’re attempting operate under the guise of being objective about these things then you should at least make a bit more of an effort than this guy did.
I am an Apple user, I think the 17″ PowerBook is great and the MacWorld was excellent but I know that if you want Apple stuff then you’re going to have to pay more and often you’ll get lower performance. I don’t write off anything that Microsoft or Dell or any other “PC Company” makes just because I like Apple stuff.
Daniel
* “PC Person” does not mean all people who use PCs. It means fanbatical PC users who, ironically enough, complain bitterly about the fanatical Mac users.
Apples marketshare is actually a whopping 30% of all users. I that is true, then this quote:
“By contrast, Apple inspires rave reviews. And accounts for only 2.3% of the worldwide computer market, according to research firm IDC. The company blazes forth, but few answer the call.”
is way off the mark. Because this 30% number suggests many many many people are switching, in record numbers.
Here is the article:
http://www.opedit.org/articles/000010.html
“No one’s mentioned software. The amount of open source or Freeware for Mac is very limited. Commercial software titles have to be special-ordered and cost more, if they’re even available.”
Although I certainly believed this when I switched to Mac two years ago, I do not think this is an issue now.
There is certainly less software available – no doubt. However, if you run Mac OS X, there is a large supply of open source software. And projects like Fink really help in this regard. The Mac freeware and shareware community is great – there is some premium quality shareware available for the OS.
I wasn’t aware that commercial software costs more for Mac versions than Windows versions. Perhaps it is true. Are there any good examples? As for special ordering, your best bet as a Mac user is to shop at a Mac dealer or online.
Bottom line, as a Mac user, I’ve never found that the platform lacked software. There are certainly some applications which are not ported to the Mac, but native alternatives exist.
Choosing to switch to Mac was not a hard choice for me. First, I really love the industrial design. Believe it or not, this is important to me. I work in advertising and I’ve always enjoyed or admired the Apple aesthetic in communications, industrial design, and interface design. Second, I am a sucker for the consistency and seamless integration, both within the OS, between the iApps, even between third party applications, and between the software and hardware. There is a consistency and simplicity across the platform that I really enjoy. Third, I am a closet geek and Mac OS X is plain fun. I was raised on the command line and Terminal.app is in the Dock beside the Finder on my desktop. I think it’s fun to manage files at the command line instead of the GUI. (And faster sometimes.) Finally, there truly is an interesting history and culture behind Apple and the Macintosh. It’s a really exciting community – but I also think Linux and BSD have thriving, interesting communities as well.
These are my reasons for choosing the Mac. It’s interesting that it has little to do with actual hardware performance or benchmarks – I’ve never thought my machine was slow. I realize it’s not the fastest. Some people will probably disparage these reasons – choosing industrial design and corporate history over 3GHz? Gasp! He must be a rich idiot. Whatever. Works for me.
(I also have a Windows laptop and an old Macintosh IIci running NetBSD at home. I like both machines and environments enough, but my Mac OS X box is my desktop, where I spend most of my computing time.)
The comparison in the article was Apples to Oranges. Of course the prices were way different! The feature sets were not equivalent. I priced the following on each companies’ web sites:
Apple Powerbook:
6.8 lbs
1” thick
17” screen – 1440×900
Geforce 4 440 Go Graphics 64MB
Dual display with one DVI and one VGA port
Firewire 800
802.11g
802.11b certified
Bluetooth
10/100/1000baseT Ethernet
——————————-
Total: $3299.00
Sony VAIO GX600:
8.4lbs
1.6-1.8” thick
16” screen – 1600×1200
ATI Radeon mobility 7500 32MB
Dual display support
iLink (Firewire 400)
802.11a (add-on for $179)
10/100baseT Ethernet
—————————
$3138.99 total
Apple’s system has Bluetooth, 802.11g, gigabit ethernet, GeForce 4, Firewire 800, and is 1.6 pounds lighter. Some of those are more important to people than others, but they add up to extra value. This is a premium notebook with a premium price, but it wasn’t intended to be otherwise. It should be very competitive in that market segment.
//just automatically reconfigures itself to work seamlessly with the network.//
From a security standpoint … why would you *EVER* want this?
It’s obvious his personal philosophy is the same as what he states for MS/Dell’s success: “Conformity is better than perfection.”
Personally, I think that’s kind of dull way to live one’s life – just buying the best selling 4-door sedan or making sure my washer is the #1 brand in America but he’s saying that’s the only criteria that counts … and that means if you use anything but MS/Dell, you too are not conforming – so you Sony and other users, get back in the Dell line and make sure you’re evenly spaced apart!!
It doesn’t just give you access to a wireless access point that you don’t have access to. If you have access to more than one point, or someone left theirs open, it reconnects to it if it is within your range without you having to tell it to change.
I work for a school system with 180 schools. Al of them have wireless routers for the tech support staff. When I go to a school for the first time I connect to the router by logging in like I am supposed to and then I save that login information to my computer. The next time I return to that school i just open my laptop and it automattically reconnects to that router without me having to do anything. My coworkers that use PC’s usually have to tell their computer to connect to that router, but I believe it does save their login information. I just think it’s easier not having to think about it. But it is still very secure.
I work around a boatload of Macintoshes and one of the few schools still using them. I ran into an interesting problem that seems to sum up my issues with Apple.
I have expressed many times my frustrations about the fundemental lies about the hardware, but in essence, I get the feeling that Apple sees their customers like this:
“Here, please by this overhyped, overpriced hardware/software package… Thanks a lot, now screw off and STFU cos we want nothing to do with you…”
Witness how many different Video adapters this company has unleashed on their victims. Nevermind the $89.00 replacemenmt fee for a laptop AC adapter/charger. This list could go on and on, but it is not the subject of my story.
We had a lab at the school where I am technical director where we wanted to use OS X 10.2 in order to use the permission schemes to limit students usage of certain applications. This capability is built right into OS X and is far more flexible then the good old Apple IP Server, and the other unstable HACKS made to the previous generations of the OS.
The students were using this lab for a few uses, but the most important was some legacy software that would run under classic mode. We paid the $$ for upgrades to the lab, installed the OS X, setup permissions etc.. And, lo and behold, when you attempt to limit useage of applications for the guest user, classic will no longer launch.
At all.
So we searched around a bit, and finally called Apple since a few of the machines were under the 1 year warrenty. After a lecture from the tech about not having Apple Care, we finally got down to business.
I was told by the tech that my problem was not a problem that Apple recognized as being a problem, in fact they never heard of it. Also, I was told that I had a few choices (yay! Choices!!). First choice was, I could either limit student usage, and not boot classic at all, ever.. Or not limit usage and boot classic.
I was also told, Apple doesnt support classic, even for schools (Which I read somewhere they had deciced to..) and that if we wanted to limit usage, we would need to find more modern OS X versions of our software, which is completely impossible since this is charting software written by an individual years and years ago. It forms the basis of our school.
Now I know Apple should not structure their business around the needs of one school, but I have worked in education and technology for years, mostly around Apple products, and I know for a fact, tons of schools use tons of legacy applications, and do not have the budgets to upgrade, even if the upgrade was available. Apple is having a hard time selling developers on the new platform. One look at Apple’s discussion boards will clue you into this fact.
Speaking of the boards. Well after the conversation with Apple, I had a look around the boards and literally found 100 people with the exact same problem. In fact all of these people are frustrated by Apple’s lack of interest in the problem. Also, Apple even has a technote on the subject with a fix that doesnt fix it, for anyone.
Seeing this, I decided to give Apple a call and see if I could get a different story. I got the same story. I also got silence when I brought up the issue on the boards.
The basic gist of my story is, that Apple may be ok, and have some cool niche stuff for people who love it, whatever. But I really get the feeling that Apple could give two shits about their customer base. I was bascially told that on the phone.
And that sucks.
“Conformity is better than perfection.”
He is an admitted lemming, and we are to take him seriously?
WRT the guy who complained about lack of freeware. Apple just released their beta implementation of X11, combine this with Fink and you’ve got a boatload of freeware available to you.
>One of his examples was that with his wireless networked >powerbook he can just close the lid and system >hibernates…. but when he reawakens it in a different >locale and a totally different network… it just >automatically reconfigures itself to work seamlessly with >the network.
>Apparently, the MS driven laptops can’t do this.
Very true. It is quite a hassle (even with some 3rd party software) to switch from DHCP to a static IP.
My iBook can reboot (something I rarely do with X) faster than my PC laptop can wake from sleep.
I guess it also depends on how much weight matters to you. In addition to the aforementioned features in the powerbook missing from the vaio there is the weight issue. According to sony’s site the PCG-GRX690 is 8.4 lbs with battery and drive (the comparison page lists it incorrectly – check out the detailed spec page) vs 6.8 lbs for the powerbook.
The extra battery from apple is about $100 cheaper too. Yummy.
Apple is having a hard time selling developers on the new platform. One look at Apple’s discussion boards will clue you into this fact
Apple hosts their own boards and Mac developers know this, most developers go to the Apple boards, NOT groups.google
Besides Quark is the only one still trailing behind. All others are already on board.
I must have missed the part of the class in Strategic Management where “grace and simplicity”=business plan.
“Apple is VERY compatible with business”
I have never worked for *any* company that used Macs. Archaeology, construction, mining, etc. Schools don’t even have them anymore. My wife teaches at a middle school where they have dozens of computers, but not a single Mac.
>>
You know… “compatible”… meaning I can bring my laptop in, plug into the network and do everything I can do with a PC laptop (edit Word documents, access the company intranet and servers, do development work, etc….)
“No one’s mentioned software. The amount of open source or Freeware for Mac is very limited. Commercial software titles have to be special-ordered and cost more, if they’re even available.”
More limited? Yes. Very limited? No. You just have to know where to look. When you move to a new city the stores and clubs aren’t in the same place. You have to find them.
“It was a funny narrative of the convention, and if someone really “ooh-ed” at an 800mhz processor, they should get smacked. Although I don’t completely understand it, I do know that when comparing equal speed processors the Macs run faster. But I doubt that Mac has anything that compared to the new high-end Intels that are 3+ ghz.”
Do you really think your 2.4GHz PC laptop is running at 2.4GHz when it’s using the battery?
“Commercial software titles have to be special-ordered and cost more, if they’re even available.”
I started to wonder, after Robcj’s post, if this was still true. So trying to be neutral, I wrote down four software titles that to me seem common; one is a game I have enjoyed playing recently. Then I went shopping at Amazon.com to find the results:
MS Word PC: $269.99 Mac: $379.99
AutoCad (LT 2002) PC: $3037.95 Mac: n/a
PhotoShop 7.0 PC: $609.00 Mac: $609.00
From Dusk Til Dawn PC: $19.99 Mac: n/a
Then I looked at industry-specific software, and two titles came to mind right away, ArcView (for archaeology) and Making the Grade (for wife’s teaching). The resultes were oposite of what I expected – there is no Mac version of the latest ArcView, but there is a Mac version of MTG.
I’m sure there are Mac-only titles too, but I was using names I was familiar with.
-Bob
Nice story. I am sorry you’re having problems. This isn’t the first time an OS company has made a break from the past and has issues with older software. If you want to upgrade to Windows XP from 98 there is a long list of software you simply have to remove from your system because it will no longer work (Norton was just the first of many). So Apple adds a feature to their new OS that doesn’t work with a legacy application. Some problems just aren’t solving or aren’t worth solving. I am sorry one of those situations affects you but decrying Apple as not caring is just plain sour grapes
Not much of a reader are you?
If you had any comprehension skills whatsoever you would find I wrote, and you quoteth:
“Apple is having a hard time selling developers on the new platform. One look at Apple’s discussion boards will clue you into this fact”
Thus taking what you wrote and firmly sending it to /dev/null
Thank you, please drive through..
“You just have to know where to look”
I can assure you there is no place where I live that sells Mac software. WalMart and K-Mart are the only large retailers within an hour’s drive. They have dozens of PC titles, including office suites, security firwalls, and the latest games. They even carry Linux distros, but NO Mac stuff.
“Do you really think your 2.4GHz PC laptop is running at 2.4GHz when it’s using the battery”
I don’t use a laptop… except for an old PowerBook 170 that I like just fine.
-Bob
I think it’s pretty obvious that the author was biased. Sounds like they “drew straws” in his office and he was the poor bastard who had to cover MacWorld… it really sounded like he didn’t want to be there.
He made a few good points, but he totally missed what the expo was all about. It was for Mac users, not PC users. Of course people were getting excited about it. If you want to look at marketing/advertising for people to switch, take a look at the switch ads. It just really seemed like he was there to find something to hate.
Now as for the % of the world using which platform, I don’t see how they get this statistic. I have 6 computers that I personally use daily at work and at home. 1 Powerbook running MacOS X, 3 PCs running Linux, and 2 PCs running Windows. While this is nothing compared to the total number of computers in the world, I wonder how many people are in a similar situation. No one ever surveyed ME to see what platforms I was using.
Thanks for your concern for our problems.
As far as sour grapes, its not sour grapes, its reality. Apple could care *less* about their important customers. Education: Take the 5000 series of machines as example one.
Content production: high end machines using ATI gaming cards on machines “ready” for 3d applications. BZZZT. Sorry.
The thing I do *not* understand about the Mac zealots, is the undying excuse making for the shit Apple slings at them. It is never ending, like the Nile in Africa. Everytime Apple fsck’s you, you stand right back up and beg for more, all the while making excuses for Apples behavior.
In classical Alcoholics Anonymous theory there is a notion of enabler. All you people who defend Apple are classic “enablers”. Apple could be “Insanely Great” but much like the Grateful Dead of yore, they are victims of an uncritical audience, so all they have to do is noodle some notes while nodding out onstage, or realease a web browser and everyone “Ooohs and Ahhhhhs”.
Doesnt help one bit.
My bad. Read that one a bit too fast.
Now, where’s that gas pedal? I’m not used to having a left-pedal AND a right-pedal, us silly Mac users.
That one is joke for those keeping score.
Do you really think your 2.4GHz PC laptop is running at 2.4GHz when it’s using the battery?>>>
Amen. My dad bought himself a very nice custom built PC laptop last christmas. The same time my iBook arrived.
My 12″ iBook had FAR superior battery life (5 hrs vs 2) and all the ports came as standard.
Dad’s laptop came with a lot fewer ports, and firewire is only with a PC card. He paid over $2500 for his, and when he’s using the battery, the 800mhz processor speed-steps down to 600mhz.
Mine always crunches data at 600 mhz. And I can burn CD’s. He can’t.
🙂
(And then there’s the adventures he had trying to get W2k to talk to XP Home, but we won’t mention that bit of the OS that Mordor$oft deliberatly crippled.)
Trust me, Apple’s laptops offer incredible value for your dollar. That $999 iBook is a steal!
—
And as for the bias on this site, the Divine Ms L-Q does a damn good job of serving up a wide variety of goodies for us to read.
She’s clearly comfortable at the command line and likes Linux and it shows.
Deal.
I think the recent review that IIRC her housemate posted about OS X was a very good critique of the OSX.
We mussn’t confuse her views with the articles she posts, nor that of the Linixlots who believe that anybody who doesn’t love the command line is a wimp, and/or that anybody who wants a logical, easy, and powerful GUI is either lazy or stupid.
Apparently you are not familiar with the concept of finite resources. Not applying resources to a particular area doesn’t mean they don’t care. What it does mean is one of the following:
1) they don’t care (yes, it is possible)
2) they care but have more important priorities
3) what you’re asking for isn’t possible
And, for the record, I haven’t said one nice thing in this thread about Apple. I have just been debunking some of the lame attempts to throw mud at them for their recent actions.
I am a recent Mac user. I stress *recent*. They did some incredibly stupid things in the mid 90’s and, IMO, system 8 and 9 weren’t worth using. So if you think I am a Mac apologist you can forget it. If your only response to my arguments is to accuse me of being blind that doesn’t say much for your reasoning abilities.
“I can assure you there is no place where I live that sells Mac software. WalMart and K-Mart are the only large retailers within an hour’s drive. They have dozens of PC titles, including office suites, security firwalls, and the latest games. They even carry Linux distros, but NO Mac stuff.”
The original question was about *free* software (maybe I should’ve made that more clear) which, of course, is not going to be available in stores. Yes, buying retail software is a problem if you don’t live near a CompUSA or Apple Store. But then there’s always the web.
Most of the good software I have for my PC wasn’t available in stores either. Thumbsplus, leechFTP, webzip, stuff like that.
that when someone criticizes apple, macs, and the people who use them, she’s objective. but whenever anyone stands up for apple and macs, nevermind what she’s saying or the points she’s making, she’s fanatic.
Amen to that.
“2) they care but have more important priorities
3) what you’re asking for isn’t possible ”
For one, like I brought up. Education is or should be a priority for Apple. And as I said, education is going ot have tons of legecy apps. Also, like I said, Apple has changed their ‘no boot classic after such and such a date” for those in education, so obviously this should be a priority if Apples *own* discussion boards are filled with educators who are pissed off at this very problem.
If you want to see another group of people not happy with apple, check the printing boards and see how complete lack of driver support is killing their little niche in the print industry.
My point through all of this is, when you have such a limited market share, the one thing you need to do as a company is kiss what few users you have collective asses. At least give the illusion you are. You dont do things to purposely alientate the few you have. It just does not make good business sense. For Christs sake, even Microshit knows that one.
As far as your 3rd point, it not being possible. Come on man, its a permission issue. Use the dumb ass little gooey doodad they give you, and make it possible to give permission to classic mode.
Easy. If it was opensource it would be fixed within a week, if not sooner.
Find me a cheaper laptop that has ALL the same features (sans Mac OS ofcourse) as that of Apple’s various laptops. I’ve done it, and Apple comes in cheaper every time.
I was looking for a Mac laptop a little over a year ago. I was looking for something with at least a 14″ display, around 1 Ghz processor (or something that streams video nicely), 20+GB harddrive, 256MB RAM, for under $1500. Mac had an ibook at around $1200, but it had a 12″ display. Their powerbook was still at $2500, and when their price dropped to ~$1900 they released the 600-800 Mhz models that knocked the price back up to $2500. It was just too expensive to buy a Mac at that time. I didn’t find one with ALL the features, but had the expansion capabilities I needed.
And now Apple comes out with a nice 17″ system, but jacks the price up to $3200 and doesn’t even give 1000 pixels verticle resolution. I want at least 1280×1024 on my next portable display or it just isn’t worth the pricetag, no matter what it costs.
I have been running Linux on my Toshiba, $1200. I would NOT recommend anyone ever buy a Toshiba laptop either. But its not bad hardware, just that their graphics chipset is a Trident which still has not released documentation on the chipset to get it accelerated properly in X. I can’t recommend ANY hardware manufacturer that won’t support OSS. (Its not like it costs them money to email some documentation) All that aside I was able make full use of my hardware with a little tweaking and have been very pleased with the results. Well worth the $1500 I saved, which I could put towards the purchase of my next laptop, a tablet PC when they finally figure out how to make them the right way (Probably an Apple).
As for the Powerbook vs x86 laptop price debate: I went to Dell as spec’ing machines is quite simple there. I tried to match a Powerbook 12″ Superdrive. I couldn’t. Getting as close to it as possible the price for the Dell was already way above that of the Powerbook.
Sony Vaio GRX-516SP which would be the closest match for the 17″ Powerbook is also more expensive at 4189 EUR but has a smaller screen, worse battery, no bluetooth, no wlan, less connectors. the 17″ PB costs 4058 EUR in comparison.
Seriously, could we just stop the crap about apple laptops being expensive copared to x86 laptops? it’s an as ridiculous debate as the g4 being twice as fast as a P4.
Here’s part of what I was replying to:
“When you move to a new city the stores and clubs aren’t in the same place. You have to find them.”
Trust me, there just aren’t any. And the driving radius to buy Mac stuff is more like a two-hour drive; I doubt Pueblo CO has much, if anything. Colorado Springs is two hours… Albuquerque or Denver is three.
People buy what they’re familiar with. And people are most familiar with items they see in the store, probably more than what they see in some “switch” t.v. commercial.
I like to shop online, even prefer it. But not having well-known department stores carry Mac is a real handicap for Apple. And not just out here in the boonies either.
I’m not saying there is absolutely no Freeware or OpenSource for Macs. I would say the selection is *extremely* limited. For the PCs there are maybe six complete office suites, dozens of CAD programs, a dozen nice work processors, dozens of games, and 30 (I just counted) astronomy programs. Obviously these vary in quality…
Another aspect related to hardware, not really Apple corp., is the number of operating systems able to run on Intel machines vs Mac. I’m suprised no one mentioned this, as this is an operating system focussed website.
Best Wishes,
Bob
Apple obviously costs more for what you get.
At bestbuy took me 10 seconds to find the latest Toshiba costs $2600 and comes with the following:
PRODUCT FEATURES
Intel® Pentium® 4 processor 2.5GHz; 512MB DDR SDRAM for multitasking power, expandable to 1.0GB
16″ SXGA Personal Theatre active-matrix display with 2048 x 1536 maximum resolution
60.0GB hard drive
DVD-ROM/CD-RW combo drive
nVidia GeForce4 440 Go graphics controller with 64MB DDR video memory; AGP bus support and TV-out
Detachable wireless full-size keyboard with dedicated Windows and application hot keys; wireless optical mouse
Built-in 2.4GHz wireless LAN (802.11b)
Integrated 10/100 Ethernet LAN; V.92 high-speed modem with data and fax support
Weighs 9.6 lbs./2.2″ thin for easy portability; removable, rechargeable high-capacity LiIon battery with AC adapter
Now if I am going to spend that kind of money I may as well get the 17inch powerbook. Because it just has the style. Jobs is right nothing in the PC world mathces those Powerbooks. You can’t just look at the specs MAC’s jsut have something about them.
By the way:-
1. 1 inch thichk or should I say think is COOL.
2. 17 inch cinema display = COOL
3. Slot loading DVD writer = WAY COOL
4. Ambient light detecting lit keyboard = COOL
5. Native X11 for Mac makes it very COOL.
If I can afford it I’ll get one of those bad boys next.
Giving it some more thought I agree Apple Notebooks are a lot more competitively priced than there Desktop counterparts.
There are certainly some applications which are not ported to the Mac, but native alternatives exist.
But how good are the native alternatives? Are they better than what we currently have on other platforms?
Because the only way I’m going to switch platforms is if I can be MORE productive than I am now. Having been a PC user for about 9 years, my Win32 box is rock solid and ‘just works’ … just like your Mac.
Since the arrival of OSX, I don’t have many personal problems with the Mac anymore, but the ‘holier than thou’ attitude of its loudest supports has got to go. I mean, I know you want us ‘Wintel’ owners to ‘see the light’, but honestly .. trying to beat us into submission is not the way to go about it.
That is one of the funniest things I have read all day. The keynote speech by Steve Jobs is always an easy target for a good reason – the way in which Apple users seem to coo at everything Jobs has to say. If you have ever seen one of these you should find an old one online – it is pretty over the top how the audience reacts, especailly for the uninitiated.
I agree they are I used a Mac for years and dumped the platform after OS X came out.Macs are hype they look cool but I can be just as productive on a Windows XP or Linux box as I can on a Mac, years ago the Mac had superior Audio, Video and 3D support thats just not true anymore PCs have those same capabilities running Windows and Linux, most movie studios have dropped the Mac and SGI and went with Lintel boxes, Dreamworks, Lucas films, even Steve Jobs own company Pixar have gone to Lintels and they pretty much are more productive, As for Steve Jobs keynote it was exciting, the new software, hardware I could give two craps less about because i dont need Mac hardware anymore as soon as the Macs I have now die I will be replacing it with x86 hardware, in the hardware department Apple has no more selling points, if the Audio, video and 3D were still superior then yes but since they arent why bother. The most exciting news for me was Safari and how it is based on Konqueror. I even booted out of Yellowdog Linux and into Mac OS X just to test Safari and it is very impressive. The only thing I want from Apple is Quicktime on Linux.
As a long time Mac User at home(preferred) and a PC user (forced to) at work, I am amazed at the amount of PC users that read and then are forced to comment upon articles about a computer they dislike. I don’t hang out at PC sites hoping to find ways to bash that platform. I just find it hard to understand that if you are so happy with your platform of choice…why must you criticize those who choose macs?
Not everyone in the world buys the cheapest cars, or the fastest cars, or the cars with the most availablity of options. People buy cars that fit their taste and budget. Spending a little extra to get what I want or desire is not an issue. Same for computers.
Everyone has opinions…that’s life. But believing that a major opinion on anything constitutes facts or must be what everyone should do is illogical. If you truly believe that, then you may best start learning to speak Chinese.
If you want to discuss your chosen computer platform…hang out on the sites for that platform. Enflaming those do not give a damn about faster, cheaper or more software, but rather what you can do with the computer as a tool does nothing to promote your cause.
I stay on the mac sites…if you promise to stay on the PC sites.
“But how good are the native alternatives? Are they better than what we currently have on other platforms?”
If your definition of better is “allows me to be more productive,” which certainly is a fair interpretation, then your question is very difficult to answer. I believe that productivity certainly depends on personal habit and aptitude – application features or interfaces which make one person more productive may make another person less productive.
If you are interested, we could compare specific applications. We could find different applications which serve the same function on various platforms and compare them according to features and ease of use, but because I believe that productivity is subjective, I don’t think the results would be very meaningful.
And therein lies the whole reason for choice in software, operating systems and platforms. Choice is good. The Mac has proven to be a good choice for me, personally. If the software you need is not available on the Mac and no comparable native applications exist, then it obviously isn’t a good choice for you.
Wtf u talkin about?
This thread is full a anti mac-ers.
The “retired” editor pulls out the most negative article on the web and posts it here.
‘holier than thou’ attitude?
God , I am beginning to hate this site.
then go ahead and write an educated counter editorial for osnews.
then i would have let the windows,linux and bsd zealots turn me off as well.
cause there are plenty of idiots for all the platforms.
but i didn’t, and i run them all.
the ‘retired’ editor linked the article.
There are plenty of other articles out there that are more even handed.
jeebus
eug has been anti apple because of them not picking up beos. its a shame, really not worth posting here anymore as every article has the same os x on x86, or apple systems suck. jeez do most people even own a 3ghz p4 who post here?
I’m here because this site has some very good discussion on Operating Systems and hardware. Macs are a proprietary combination of the two. Their hardware deserves the same criticism any hardware in the industry gets. And so does their software for that matter. But its not like we hate Apple more than Microsoft. Its just that we’re trying to figure out if these new Macs are more hype, like the G4, or if they are really worth their price tag.
Most people like me are more concerned about what hardware we get for our money, since I use an alternative OS on whatever hardware I purchase. So in my case a Mac is not such a good option. But you can’t ignore the fact that Macs do often have higher quality hardware than Dell, HP, IBM, etc. and they put more effort into designing a complete package. I don’t hate Macs, in fact I wish more corps would start purchasing them for enterprise desktop use (better TCO I’d bet, initial cost aside) but the facts are they are too expensive or more corps would be buying them. If I could get a 15″ powerbook for $1500-$2000 I probably would. Or if I could build my own G4 PC under $1000 I’d rush out and buy it today.
They have what it takes but they just don’t want my money, they want yours. So I’ll let you know whenever they screw you over. hehe
What’s so bad about people getting excited at the expo? It’s fun. Macs are fun. We have two macs and two PCs at my house. I use my PCs, but I don’t like them. I like my macs, and I get more done on them. Nothing wrong with a computer being fun.
<quote>I don’t hate Macs, in fact I wish more corps would start purchasing them for enterprise desktop use (better TCO I’d bet, initial cost aside) but the facts are they are too expensive or more corps would be buying them. </quote>
What Nope would never happen. People are under the delusional idea that if Apples were cheaper and if Linux apps did everything a Windows could then everyone would rush to alternative OSes. Why not?
The current corporate structure has no overwhelming reason to switch platforms. The current licensing stumbles by MS are simply not enough. Corporations need a positive reason. They need something real and concrete, a killer application or something, on Linux or MacOSX has that Windows does not.
The kind of positive reason can be argued up and down. But the real fact is that the corporate world would not switch to Macs even if the costs were ridiculous low. They have no overwhelming reason that justifies the switch and re-training. I imagine some companies are still paying for that initial round of Windows training that told people how to deal with minimizing, maximizing and dealing with windows.
I have to laugh at your assertions reprinted below:
The thing I do *not* understand about the Mac zealots, is the undying excuse making for the shit Apple slings at them. It is never ending, like the Nile in Africa. Everytime Apple fsck’s you, you stand right back up and beg for more, all the while making excuses for Apples behavior.
In classical Alcoholics Anonymous theory there is a notion of enabler. All you people who defend Apple are classic “enablers”. Apple could be “Insanely Great” but much like the Grateful Dead of yore, they are victims of an uncritical audience, so all they have to do is noodle some notes while nodding out onstage, or realease a web browser and everyone “Ooohs and Ahhhhhs”.
Doesnt help one bit.
Talk about enablers who put up with a companies shit, how about windows users? About to lose your Digital Rights, have to call Microsoft when you want to reinstall the OS you bought, constant crashing, security so bad that the border patrols in canada laugh at them, bugs up the wazoo, a klunky counterintuitive ugly interface, constant crashing
criminal monopolistic behavior should I go on? And you accuse Mac users of being enablers? F#$ You! There isn’t a bigger bunch of enablers in the world than windows users.
at least anonymouse isnt being biased against only mac users or windows users…
prolly a freaking gnu nut though
I love it!
Whenever someone says something close to the truth about Apple and the market, all the Mac faithful scream bias and hidden agenda.
Frankly the review seemed quite insightful. Let’s not be fooled though, Apples failure to be number one doesn’t make them unsuccessful, I am sure Apple is still turning over a tidy profit. Not be number 1 can work to Apple’s advantage.
2 cents worth.
An idiot says that he/she will not post here anymore because he/she finds the site is anti-Apple. Yes you heard it right, the guy considers one of the site contributors anti-Apple. How do you become an anti-Apple? Well you post notes which says things that this idiot doesn’t like. Not that I care what he/she says, since he/she is one of those idiots who can not think at all, but I found it quite stupid to post that he/she will not post here at all. Of course the point is to hurt by implying that the site is loosing its appeal. There are so many stories I found quite stupid in this OsNews, but I think still it is one of the best sites. Besides things like which are political and worthless to talk about, such as Apple, Microsoft stuff, there are many articles which are quite usefull which give good insight.
I am sorry if the idiot hurt my friend, maybe I should use loser.
“How do you become an anti-Apple? Well you post notes which says things that this idiot doesn’t like”
Absolute, unadulterated BS.
It’s the consistent, negative vibe regardless of what u are actually saying.
It’s the consistent slammage whenever an article is posted here.
And really, it wouldn’t matter if the “retired” editor posted a positive article. U and the regular bashers would still spew the same old crap.
I read some of the last 80 posts, and some of them are purely targeted against the editor as if he/she is anti-Apple or something, I don’t even know or understand what the hell does that mean. It probably makes sense for those losers who doesn’t have anything but to call some people anti-Mac. It just seems that during these conferences Mac trolls floruish all over the place, like mushrooms after rain.
))
If you are a person with reason, don’t get confused. If you read the posts so far, the only thing you can read from Mac trolls are usually related with accusing others without giving or explaining anything at all. This is because, these people usually like Apple, and they want to feel part of it, as if like it is a cult. Not that Apple cares about these users, in example Apple will never listen to them for a product, but the fact is that these poor people think that they are important. They are something in this world, if they own Apple products. This is of course a very natural feeling, and there is nothing wrong about it. The problem is that there are false assumptions, feelings that play in this feeling. The problem is that when one says the truth and when one tells the truth, some of these people turn out to be idiots, in the sense that, their whole life seem to depend on this tabu that Apple products are better or something, even though by hard proof they are not. Even you show them the fact that Apple products are nothing but polished craps, or at least even you show them that you can buy the same hardware and software or even a better one for less, they will accuse you of being anti-Apple. The problem with these idiots is that, even though OsNews post more anti-Microsoft news than any other type of news, they accuse the site of being anti-Apple. That’s why you shouldn’t care about these people who just want to feel important or something in this world, by simply trying to silence people who tell the truth.
“They are something in this world, if they own Apple products. This is of course a very natural feeling, and there is nothing wrong about it. The problem is that there are false assumptions, feelings that play in this feeling. The problem is that when one says the truth and when one tells the truth, some of these people turn out to be idiots, in the sense that, their whole life seem to depend on this tabu that Apple products are better or something, even though by hard proof they are not…blah blah”
I haven’t read such funny amatuer psychoanalysing in a while.
man o man, u are way too funny— u were trying to be funny?
Bzzzt.
Actually. Not a liar here. In fact, I use Macintoshes more than I use Windows.
Linux user here. Thanks.. Please drive through.
I like Windows, but I hate the things you brought up.
Peace..
Bob:
While many anti-Mac people who post to OSNews seem to be clueless followers of Eugenia, the Queen of anti-Mac, I think you’re intelligent yet misinformed. That said, I’ve decided to reply to your comments in the hopes that I help to correct some of your misconceptions.
Let’s start with this statement you made:
“There was a comment by someone at Apple a while back saying that Mercedes has the same market share as Apple, but no one considers Mercedes unsuccessful. If there were only two car makers and one had 95% and the other had 5%, then that would be a relevent comparison.”
This statement implies that there are only two computer makers. For an accurate cars to computers comparison, look at Apple’s percentage as a hardware vendor compared to other hardware vendors. You will find some way ahead (Dell) and some behind Apple in terms of percentage.
Next we have:
“Are Macs made-to-order so you can trim out unneeded features that jack up the cost? Firewire 2, Ethernet, Bluetooth, Wireless for instance.”
Unneeded for who? I need and depend on each of those features every day. The only exception being FireWire 2. However, it’s a replacement for FireWire — something I do use every day.
The following is the statement that really shows you don’t know the market:
“Schools don’t even have them anymore. My wife teaches at a middle school where they have dozens of computers, but not a single Mac.”
Your wife’s school is in the minority. I work in the educational software business. We sell software to schools across the U.S. Roughly 25% of our customers are schools with 100% Macs. Another 35% are a mixture of Macs and Windows. Just 40% of our customers are pure Windows schools. My experience aside, I suggest you look to the Internet for more information. You’ll find information about districts and entire states (Maine) that are adopting Macs.
“No one’s mentioned software. The amount of open source or Freeware for Mac is very limited.”
This is an absurd statement. There are 5000+ native apps available for OS X. Additionally, a huge number of Unix and Linux apps have been ported to OS X. You also have Java apps; Mac OS X is a great Java platform (though slightly behind in versions right now). Then there are the OS 9 apps. And if you include the Windows apps you can run with Virtual PC (albeit slowly), it’s actually possible to run more apps on an OS X box than any other commercial operating system.
Take care,
Mike
“There are 5000+ native apps available for OS X. Additionally, a huge number of Unix and Linux apps have been ported to OS X. You also have Java apps; Mac OS X is a great Java platform (though slightly behind in versions right now). Then there are the OS 9 apps. And if you include the Windows apps you can run with Virtual PC (albeit slowly), it’s actually possible to run more apps on an OS X box than any other commercial operating system.”
PC can also run unix, as well as majority of linux distros, qnx, beos, new amiga, and whatever other OS being cooked up, as well as the windows platform stuff. I’m not saying Mac OS doesn’t have a wide assortment of software, just that, when you have mid 90s marketshare (or whatever that number is) the amount of software is going to be effected. You could probably make a decent arguement that most of that software is crap (one look at download.com gives me that impression), but it’s still there.
If I could afford a mac, I wouldn’t mind owning one.
Why must all this misinformation and bashing happen? Why can’t many of you simply enjoy computing, enjoy the OSes we have, be able to talk about their strengths and weaknesses in an adult manner?
Here is what the Mac has now: a new OS that is beginning to fulfill its potential. The iApps are now integrated with each other and this is a great consumer product. There is nothing comparable to them and that integration on other plaforms. They have .Mac, which is also a really nice service for consumers. They have outstanding professional software in some areas. They have a great wireless set up. They have a well received server entry. They are participating in OSS. The iPod is a wonderful product. They have an exciting new browser in beta. All hardware looks cool. All of this software and hardware are run on under-powered processors. And that’s where things are with Apple. I buy Apple products and use them because I like them. But, I’m not blind to the current shortcomings of the Mac. Apple has always made computing enjoyable and that usually helps people be productive. But, they’ve got to speed our Macs up, that’s all their is to it.
MacWorld’s are fun. And oohing and ahhhing is part of it. But, nobody was cooing when Steve announced .Mac at the last MacWorld, that’s for sure. There was dead silence.
The “retired editor” is not biased against Apple. There’s a big article on a big site like C/Net about Apple – why shouldn’t that article be linked? All Eugenia has ever really said about Microsoft is that XP Pro is fast and rock solid – which I find to be true too.
About freeware and shareware – people not very familiar with Macs may not realize that, upt hrough OS 9, there are treasure chests of freeware and shareware. OS X is new and is completely different than OS 9 and, as a result, there isn’t a whole boatload of it yet. There will be, in time.
So start acting like adults, even if you aren’t one 🙂
http://www.versiontracker.com/
All this bickering is silly. Saying Eugenia is anti-mac is absurd, she calls them how she sees them. Period. Hell I think Eugenia even has a Cube.
PC people like to hate macs. I know. I used to be one. Macs are for people too stupid to figure out a real computer – I thought. I grew up on DOS and I didn’t need no stinking GUI. Windows was a joke too (Win 3.1). WFW 3.11 and my dorm room network lured me into the internet and web browsing, filesharing on the peer to peer with other dorm residents, were the only things that got me to run windows at start up. Macs were lame because there was no command line at all. Mac-hate all stems from this. I used macs at school and they were all pretty and cutsie and I hated it. Using a mac was like telling me to wear a dress.
Fast forward to 1 year ago. I have tried every OS on the planet. I was a BeOS fanatic (beautiful GUI, with unix shell and POSIX compliance couldn’t be beat) but BeOS was going the way of the Dodo. My Dual 500 Celeron running Win2k just loved crapping out on when editing video, all this after buying a load of software and a firewire card just so I could edit video. Sure a Dual 500 Celeron was not top of the line, but it did everything else just fine and should have been up to the task.
I thought if I am going to buy a computer it has to do Video Editing well. Since my old computer suited every other need this opened the door for a Mac, but I was not about to get a G3. It had to be a G4, and they just weren’t cheap enough. Then along comes the iMac G4. I think sweet I’ll get this mac for Video Editing. It has a DVD burner and all. I’ll still have the PC for everything else. I still never would have done it without OS X. The unix core really appealed to me. Plus at the time Scot Hacker, of BeOS Bible fame, was saying these new macs were the next best thing to BeOS. I trusted his judgment and went for it.
Before I know it, the PC is relegated to a headless file sever running in the corner. The Mac just won me over. Granted I am no speed freak uber gamer or anything like that. And if you are then you and Steve Jobs both know the Mac is not for you. But for regular people who want to get things done and make cool stuff with all their digital gadgets (camcorders, cameras, etc.) The Mac is plenty fast so much easier to use.
Maybe in my college days I had time fark around with my computers and fix and tweak, but these days with my mac I am enjoying everything being simple. I am Consultant with IBM Global Services and I am a switcher. 🙂
People can hate Macs all day long. It doesn’t bother me because I know if anyone ever used one they would have to admit they do their job well. I think most people just resent not being able to use the cool software on PC’s. I know one previous poster mentioned the sparcity of apps on the original iMac, but these days the Apps are what make the Mac.
I never thought I would enjoy using a mac, much less own one, but I really do.
If I could get a 15″ powerbook for $1500-$2000 I probably would
If I could get a comparable x86 laptop in that pricerange I probably would. But as those tend to be even more expensive than a Powerbook I guess I won’t.
In case you want to call me a zealot, my OS history to date:
Windows 3.11-> Windows 95 -> Debian -> Suse -> BeOS -> QNX RTP -> NT ->W2K -> OS X -> FreeBSD
Conclusion? FreeBSD is, well, free and pretty rough while OS X costs a whole lot of money but is a lot easier to use while Windows is in the middle between usability and roughness but them pushing for DRM disqulified them for me.If BeOS and QNX RTP wouldn’t have gone the way of the tasmanian tiger I might still use those.
I don’t think a particular OS is shit – in their own way they all are.
You Disagree? Whine to your mom about it.
quack!: One of his examples was that with his wireless networked powerbook he can just close the lid and system hibernates…. but when he reawakens it in a different locale and a totally different network… it just automatically reconfigures itself to work seamlessly with the network.
Actually, my laptop can do almost the same, only it should be under system stand by (hibernate on Windows means the session is saved and the computer off). However, it is not wireless, whenever I “open the lid” with a different network cable in, it is already configured..
I imagine this would be the same for WiFi.
Ralf.: one of the top models was cheaper than the new Powerbook that’s right – but:
But that probably isn’t the highest end model. At $100 less, the highest ready-made Vaoi GRX600 model (BTW, if you customize it, and take out the 2.0Ghz processor for a 1.8Ghz, you save $250.)
– has double the RAM as on the highest end PowerBook
– 60gb of space
– Ahh, screen, touchy issue. This can be confusing, but you must remember, as a cinema (16:9) display, it normally have a higher number as its size than 5:4 displays. Why? The size is measured diagonally. So actually, the PowerBook has a smaller display than the Vaoi.
Besides, as for the screen resolution, I see nothing wrong with it, unless you are a 90 year old with eye sight problems.
– The display is a Radeon 7500 with 32mb. Bad? No. Unless you are a gamer (which you wouldn’t buy that Vaoi anyway), this wouldn’t affect performance all that much compared to a GF4. Why? Mac OS uses a lot of OpenGL stuff for its eye candy, Windows doesn’t.
– So it doesn’t have FireWire 2. So big deal. As if there is so much of peripherals out there that uses it.
– So it doesn’t have Gigabit. So big deal. As if there is so much of networks out there that uses it.
– No bluetooth. But a PMCIA card is cheap, no?
– Actually, there is WLAN support. It is however optional. Hardly anyone uses it. If you want WLAN, the price would be just a little more than $200 more expensive
– 4.5 battery life (but I read in reviews, the number is actually closer to 4.0)
– But did I mention that it comes with Office XP Pro, Photoshop Elements, and Sony’s software?
– The keyboard doesn’t lights up, BTW. But I’m not gonna buy a PB for that. And it is not one inch thick.
The GRX690 is BTW $700 cheaper, and can compete with the highest end PB.
Marklar: Find me a cheaper laptop that has ALL the same features (sans Mac OS ofcourse) as that of Apple’s various laptops. I’ve done it, and Apple comes in cheaper every time.
This is only a phenomenon that occur when new models are release from Apple. For example, before the newest update, I could name 10-12 laptops that can do the job better at a cheaper price.
Besides, to note that Apple laptops are normally priced more competitively than their desktops.
bah: Apple is putting new technology […]
I would like to point out everything was said in Jobs’ keynote isn’t new technology. It is cleverly marketed old stuff.
Dan: I Received a call to go fix a Windows XP machine.[..]
Stange, except for my printer, everything works right out the box that you said with my HP laptop. The printer have a CD with drivers, and no drivers for OS X.
imaginereno: Since then, I haven’t missed my crash prone, slow, Windows XP system.
Crash-prone? Slow?!?!?! Compared to OS X? Hard to imagine, sorry.
imaginereno: My iMac is fast, elegant, easy and does everything I want to do.
Fast, no. Elegant, to some. Easy, same with a Parkard-Bell, would you recommend that? And does everything I want to do, not the case for most PC users.
Jay: Along with Outlok Express and I.E. 4 and then 4.5.
Actually, at first it was only Netscape. Later IE and Netscape. Then IE only on OS X. Soon neither.
Talf.: The big deal here is that some news-editors here has a personal disvafor to Apple and ANY things that company do and like to provocate with “news” like that.
Actually, ZDNet didn’t call it news. It is an opinion. He feels that MWSF brings nothing new to the table, but that’s his opinion.
Marklar: Seems to me, that it (or any of Apple laptop lineup) fits in just about anywhere a PC laptop fits in
Normally, IT departments in companies tend to go for the same platform cause it would cost them less in terms of support.
Marklar: What’s new to learn… very little. what little there is, one must consider the fact that Apple leads the pack in ease of use. So this is a moot point.
Easy to use and easy to learn doesn’t mean moot here. Companies want something that can make someone productive instantly. You have to get use to the Mac.
Marklar: Does it matter?
It does. Would that MSCE technician be able to support those using OS X? Would the custom software you are running run on OS X? How much money you have to fork out to get those custom software on OS X? Is it worth it?
To me, everything answers no.
Marklar: In my experience that answer is a resounding YES.
In my experience, that answer is a resounding NO.
Marklar: PC hardware (and software) of lesser quality and producity?
I have a 9 year old PC running BeOS in the background. Not a problem since I got it. Lesser quality? All the Mac using friends I have had at least twice send back their Macs, mostly modem problems.
And as for productivity, I personally wouldn’t be as productive on a Mac compared to a PC. You find it productive. I don’t. See the difference? It is very relative.
Besides, it is expensive for its specs.
Marklar: Apple is VERY compatible with business.
I have to disagree. Apple knows little about the corporate enviroment and it knows it so it keeps it’s butt out of it.
Marklar: The PC laptop the author compared it to had far less features.
He mentioned a class of laptops, and mention the varrying prices in brakets. He never did implied that the lowest end is better or the same as the highest end PB.
Besides you guys bash me, if I was buying a laptop now, I would highly consider the PowerBook 12″, not the 15″ and certainly not the 17″. heck, i would probably buy it. I would use it as my mobile laptop, instead of taking that bulky 15″ laptop I have now.
But so sad, I’m not shoping for one.
Michael Connick,
One of Apple’s problems must be their marketing, if I’m so poorly informed : )
The car analogies I see all the time, and have even contributed to, are mostly crap. It’s not really comparable. There are mostly two types of computers (Mac and PC) with some very minor players (Sparc, for instance.). All cars are mostly the same, same gas, same roads, same basic operations,etc.
“Unneeded for who? I need and depend on each of those features every day. The only exception being FireWire 2. However, it’s a replacement for FireWire — something I do use every day.”
That’s my point. Computer users all have different needs. You need those things; I don’t. PC makers like Dell and Gateway do an excellent job of “custom-building” machines. Off-the-shelf makers (HP et.al.) are terrible. If you want one advanced or high-end feature, you have to move up to an entirely different model in a much higher price range. That’s how most computers used to be and that’s how Apple still does it. They really need to adjust (update, modernize, whatever) their sales procedure. I’d rather have a 19 inch Trinitron than a 17″ flat panel, and save money too. Or knock off the networking features and add the money to a better graphics card. Or skip the DVD but have a CD and CD-RW drives…
“Your wife’s school is in the minority.”
Yes, it’s true I’m not up-to-date on the educatinal market. I know that Apple used to practically give computers to schools. Then schools wanted to be compatible with businesses so there was a huge surge of IBMs. Now it may be reversing, at least in some areas. The grading program used here is now available for Mac; it never was before, so maybe there’s more demand. But many schools are also very low-budget. The PC lab at the school here is filled with complete junk and the teachers get bottom-of-the-line Gateways (the couple that have new machines). I don’t think there is a single Mac for sale that would be in their price range, even with the special discounts.
I’m no mathemetician, but your definition of “minority” doesn’t seem right. You say 40% are all PC and 25% are all Mac. That would make my wife’s school in the *majority*. Including schools that have both, 75% have PC and 55% have Mac. The school here used to have a single Mac – no one ever used it (Mac LC III) and they were going to throw it out. We use it for running “vintage” Mac software at home.
“This is an absurd statement.”
I still strongly disagree with software availability. Forget about Unix and Java, you can use those on a PC too, and look at only Mac software. After searching the Internet I could not find anywhere near the quantity of Freeware, in any category, for Macs as there is for PCs. Sure, there is stuff available, and some is top quality too, just not very much.
Find me 10 astronomy programs for the Mac as good as Open Universe, Celestia, StarCalc, or Home Planet. I can send a list of 20+, if you’re interested, for PC. I have seen a couple of free CAD titles for Mac, but they are not equal in quality to CadVance, IntelliCAD 2000, DesignWorkshop Lite, or many others. I can send a list of nearly 30 for the PC.
OpenOffice may have been ported to Mac. If so that’s the only Freeware office suite for Mac that I know of. PC users have many to choose from. And I can’t find a Mac word processor as nice as Atlantis Nova.
The real uninformed may be the long-time Mac users that don’t know about the vast quantity of high-quality Freeware for PCs.
Not to mention commercial titles not released for Mac. An example I gave on the forum is ArcView. ArcView is the industry standard for archaeologists, GIS specialists, and many engineers. It’s not available for Mac. When I lived in Albuquerque I noticed an odd phenomonon: Mac sections at mainstream multimendia stores kept shrinking, until they were smaller than the Linux sections!
I really do like Macs, and we have four here in the house that use Mac 7-something and 8-something. But they are old machines that won’t run modern software. Apple made a decision many years ago by choosing independance over conformity, as in being IBM compatible. I don’t think they should necessarily be sorry, but there have been consequenses. Software makers are hesitant to release titles in a format that has less than 3% of market sales. Apple Inc. hasn’t stepped in with enough software development to fill the gaps. And irregardless what some forum posts say, the management at Apple can’t be happy with a slip from 5% to below 3% in a matter of 3 years. I think they could have up to 10% and still maintain the aura of exclusivity that they depend on.
I only know a single person that uses a modern Mac. He used to have a graphics company and used Macs exclusively for that. I think that’s a niche that they’re losing now too. Movie studio graphics are even switching away from Mac to Linux. Funny how Jobs own company uses Linux to make movies… I think that’s a good indicator of the way things are.
Anyway, I have enjoyed this discussion. My big opinion is that I’d love to have a Mac and a PC. But like like most people I had to choose, and like most people I chose PC.
Best Wishes,
Bob
I might just get a copy of Keynote. I have used Powerpoint for years, and the concept of presentation software that potential DOES’NT suck entices me. I don’t know why Adobe killed Persuasion and ceded that whole market to Microsuck. I hope Apple does a whole beyond-Appleworks Office Suite.
I hate Word, too, though Word processing is increasingly irrelevant these days. I do everything in .txt, .rtf, or .html, and export, as appropriate to .pdf, using OS X’s “Preview.app”.
I wanted to point out that both OpenUniverse and Celestia are available on Mac OS X. OpenUniverse in fact is no longer being updated for any platform and it’s developers suggest migration to Celestia. Celestia for Mac OS X is available at http://redivi.com/~bob/celestia.html.
I’m not attempting to convince you that the Macintosh is better, because I do believe that is subjective, but I am attempting to convince you that there is far more software available for the platform than many people believe. In addition, although there is certainly software available for Windows or other platforms which has not yet been released for the Macintosh, it’s worthwhile mentioning that a number of premium quality applications exist only on the Macintosh as well. I reiterate, choice is good.
[[[[Apple’s new mini-notebook, meanwhile, fits squarely within its category. It’s not the thinnest or lightest model (that distinction belongs to the 2-pound Sharp Muramasa) or, at $1,799, the cheapest. It’s good, it looks cool–but it’s a mini-notebook. Outside of Japan, a depressed market, few people buy them. ]]]]
Weird, I wonder who’s buying all the iBooks?
If you do not take price into consideration; Apple products are generally the better overall pick. Yes the CPU are sucking wind, that is my biggest greavence. But all the bells and whistles you get on a mac vs any PC manufacture is a notch above. We could go round and round on configurations, but Apple always seems to add that 1 or 2 features before the rest of the industry as a standard (I.E. Firewire USB in the original iMac, get the idea). I love my iBook and use it for everything EXCEPT gaming, gotta have a hot Athlon for that 🙂
But when you throw a price tag on the products, all of a sudden Apple’s become less attractive to A LOT of people. I can understand that, and if price is a factor then maybe you should not look at an Apple. But if price is less of a factor and you want a computer that will last more than 18 months before you feel the need to upgrade again look into Apple. Apple does make a quality product and unfortunetly you have to pay for it.