WinInformant informs us that Microsoft will be intergrating Internet Explorer to the OS from now on, instead of offering it as a standalone application. Our Take: There is certainly some advantage tieing any browser to its underlying OS (a browser is a framework anyway) and developing it along with the OS, but most users already opposed this without understanding that it is cheaper and faster to have to maintain a single codeline instead of having to hack IE everytime the OS changes (e.g. any Windows GUI engine changes was creating such problems, as IE’s UI engine is all custom code and the engineers had to maintain two codelines). Same arguments people had 10 years ago: “why do we need a networking stack to come with the OS and be tied in to the kernel?” Well, today it is obvious why, back then it wasn’t for most. Sometimes, you need to see the bigger picture with the eyes of a strategist or an senior engineer.
Microsoft Drops the Ball with Internet Explorer
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
However, having run Mozilla 1.4RC1, why would one need to wait on the edge of their set for IE when there is already Mozilla providing those features today. I don’t know one website that doesn’t support Mozilla. Maybe some website out in the sticks that 3 people may visit, but high volume sites like osnews.com, zdnet.com, macworld.com and so forth can be viewed with what ever.
As for Microsoft. their “innovation” (if that is what you can label it) is lagging behind what the smaller “players” are looking into. People don’t want Passport because it wreaks of “big brother”, what people DO want is fun and interesting ways to use their computer, and I’m sorry, Microsoft ins’t providing it. Having a mediaplayer that hogs up more screen realestate than necessary is something I wonder NOT consider an innovation.
People are quite happy with their current setup, what people want is reliablility and predictability. People don’t want things to be made more complicated and problematic. Unless Microsoft actually demonstrates some usefullness of .NET as a client side framework, it will be relegated to the back room just as Java has.
I thought it was already integrated since Win95B…
So, how does this dropping of IE as a standalone product affect Macs and the recent deal with AOL?
I know that Mac has Safari, but does this change affect the deal that Apple and Microsoft have for the distribution of IE with MacOS?
Also, does that mean that AOL will be more tightly integrated with Windows, leaving a duopoly of MSN and AOL?
The next version of IE will be deeply integrated with the DRM functionality of the underlying OS. You will not be able to see/use/etc many websites unless you have the proper certificates and such. In fact, the term website will have less and less meaning as destinations become better known by what security they require vs. what ‘web’ content they contain.
And we also get a good laugh at the farce of the USDOJ and their anti-trust settlement with Microsoft.
As those with a little bit of life experience can see, it is time for the real axis of evil to take another step towards Total Information Awareness.
Oh, I forgot Macs. I don’t know if many Mac users are using IE though.
I wonder if they realise that a tigher integration of IE will make Windows even more vulnerable than now…
Integrating everything into the kernel is good for one thing and one thing only — performance. It does *not* add to robustness of the system, nor ease of debugging. If you have a stable API and ABI, the underlying system can change dramatically, with no effect on the applications which run on top. When they’re closely linked, small changes in one affect the other.
Cutler’s team understood this when they built NT. Too bad they’ve gotten away from it — all in the name of performance. First it was gdi32.dll, now it’s virtually everything. And Windows is a disgusting mass of code which runs reliably one only one platform. And a platform on which well-written browsers (several versions of mozilla, Opera) can outperform the one integrated into the kernel.
In the context of the story, however, it’s unsuprising. If you want different browser functionality, it’ll come via an alternative to MS, or something like AOL or MSN.
Host: Rob (Microsoft)
Q: when will IE get transparent PNG support?
A: Ian, I’m sorry, I can’t answer that question for you
I am absolutely shocked that microsoft would do such a thing.
>Q: when will IE get transparent PNG support?
>A: Ian, I’m sorry, I can’t answer that question for you
Maybe he just didn’t know… 😮
They don’t know everything you know…
AOL as part of their ‘anti-trust settlement’ with Microsoft, agreed to use Internet Explorer as their browser for the next seven years.
Microsoft is in a prime position to make alternative browsers not even work on Windows. They will have to be rewritten to use the DRM-enabled versions of TCP/IP, HTTP, etc.
didn’t that include that MS *NOT* include IE by default or make it possible to uninstall IE?
> Same arguments people had 10 years ago: “why do we need a
> networking stack to come with the OS and be tied in to the
> kernel?” Well, today it is obvious why, back then it wasn’t
> for most. Sometimes, you need to see the bigger picture with
> the eyes of a strategist or an senior engineer.
What you’re suggesting is that the web browsing engine becoming part of the kernel. This is UI code, not core system code. Whatever happened to modularity? A good networking stack should -despite closely communicating with the kernel- not be tied to the code so closely that an error like a buffer overflow could cause the kernel to die.
Most of us are aware how many problems IE’s browsing engine has. Does the core of the systems need even MORE problems? I think not.
It would seem that merely making each IE version only available with a particular version of Windows. Windows users would probably prefer this although it doesn’t effect me because I don’t use Windows.
My post.
>>Q: when will IE get transparent PNG support?
>>A: Ian, I’m sorry, I can’t answer that question for you
Eugenia reply
>Maybe he just didn’t know… 😮
>They don’t know everything you know…
Does this reflect upon their job title?
They either haven’t begun to do the PNG support or it is simply not finished.
Matthew Baulch writes…
>Whatever happened to modularity?
Windows is extremely modular!!!!
They are just HUGE modules ;D
Yes, you are right. The settlement which originally came out of the problems with Microsoft using monopoly power to crush Netscape… had provisions about future bundling and such… but now said settlement is completely meaningless.
However, in reality the settlement never did matter. There is not one real provision with teeth in the public version of that settlement. Besides, the public has no way of enforcing the settlement other than by voting with their checkbooks and abandoning the Microsoft OS.
The *real* settlement was a deal between the USDOJ/USGOVT and MSFT where MSFT gets to be a monopoly in exchange for making Windows a total Big Brother OS.
I bet most home users have the IE that came with their OS or the latest. The only problem here will be going back to particular versions – I bet MSDN will continue to offer this.
It does indeed seem to have gone from bad to worse. The more market domination Microsoft has the worse it is for the entire industry, IE has been at a standstill feature wise since 1998 when the browser wars were prett ymuch settled.
Having AOL strike this deal is really big blow to Netscape and a big win for Microsofft. AOL is losing their investment in Netscape each passing day by not using the amazing technolgies and innovations available in Mozilla and Netscape.
Deals like this are also terrible because you don’t know how the futre will pla yout, how IE will cahnge and how the market will change, you are locked in. A terrible decision for AOL giving them in my opiniona competitive disadavantage in the longrun to MSN which is also based on Explore obviously.
If you want to learn the TRUTH about Microsoft’s dark history, and the Mr. Bil Gates.
Please read this article: http://www.lindows.com/lindows_michaelsminutes_archives.php?id=65
It is a must read for anyone wondering why so amny people here dislike Microsoft and if you are interested in how the company managed tp get to the top and keep its position for decades.
If you are interested in music and how Apple and Microsoft is changing the landscape in a major way for the worse, check this out: http://www.lindows.com/lindows_michaelsminutes_archives.php?id=62
sorry to say, but AOL just bent over and let microsoft have its way with them. Oh well. at least i can still use phoenix
too bad i will have to pay for internet explorer to also buy windows.
dude, just dont buy the piece of shit! get a mac or a x86 with one of the open OS’s
regards /jens (drinking his coffee and synching his ipod on a freebsd machine)
Wow…I must say, though I’m usually distrustful of Robertson (he likes half-truths and lying by omission), this is kind of stunning, especially the bit about using charity money to buy stock. He should have mentioned Be too.
Also, the thing about Java..is that really true? Seems like Gates should be growing a thin mustache, twisting it and cackling maniacally.
here here enough of this ms stuff. Why and what for? Its your computer take control and look into the alternatives. Lot of good alternatives now. There is life without MS. believe
– doing my thing on mandrake linux 9.1
as if they would not have enough problem with ie. now they are integrating it deeper into the system. i hope this does not open doors for very nasty hack’s.
anyway… it was nice to be able to install ie under wine (some stupid apps need ie libraries). in the future, this will not be possible. i hope the new applications needing ie libs will not use or force me to use new ones. else alot of applications will probably not work in wine anymore. dam!
cheers
SteveB
Opera > IE.
Opera requires no enhancements to underlying OS.
“Further improvements to IE will require enhancements to the underlying OS.”
WTH??????
MS wants to stop non MS OSes using IE under Wine etc to slow the inevitable drift of businesses to OSS. Note that MS has just substantially reduced the price of Office. Ballmer is reducing his MS stock for the first time in 12 years. MS is becoming very, very scared.
I always wondered why my Windows Werver PC was so upset all the time it kept crashing – playing Solitaire on its own lonesome ownsome was so lonely.
Now it can play Solitaire with some other lonely Windows Werver PCs! Microsoft is SO GENEROUS!!! Lonely Computers’ Heart’s (or Bowels’) Club, here we come!
Now we can get spammed and pop-upped without mercy, because Microsoft only ever bothers with security, whatever, when it’s challenged and under threat of losing market share.
Time is now: Get out get out fast. Use Linux, Use BSD get a Mac, whatever.
It’s ironic in a way that if you grab an off the shelf linux disto you get soo much extra software. Yet if MS includes software, its bad.
But why is it bad? So many restrictions, so many agreements. Kick MS out now.
Whenever I use windows ( not much lately) and have to install software, I let the kid do it. He’s 4. He can barely read, but he knows how to install software. So I guess MS has an agreement with a 4 yr old? LOL. No EULA for me, MS has targeted a illiterate minor. Am I liable as his parent? I suppose so, but I didnt read the agreement either.
Since MS has stated in the past that they will never charge for IE, and have now stated that IE6 SP1 will be the last version available as a stand alone unit; does this mean that thier future versions of Windows will now be free? I am guessing not. Therefore they would be indirectly charging for IE. As we know, some online banking and other online purchase currenly require IE 5.0 SP2 or higher to function. Sometime in the distant future, some may require IE 8.01 to function. TO work with this bank, you would have to upgrade to the version of Windows that had this version. I highly doubt that this OS will be free, so this means that IE would be charged for. This whold issue is goofier than a football bat if you ask me.
I think MS’s biggest competitors (IBM, Sun, Oracle, whoever else) and any other web site authors who hate IE should make their websites purposely inaccessible to IE. If you went to any of these websites with IE, you’d get a message saying something likee “This website is not compatible with Interenet Explorer … ” Eventually, if there are enough of these websites, IE userse would get tired of seeing this message and will be forced into downloading another browser … kind of poetic justice, don’t you think ?
I’m just saying this becaue I get tired of seeing stuff like “You are not using a supported web browser, we recommend Microsoft Internet Exploiter”, and half the time you look at the source and it’s this terrible, managed Frontpage ‘HTML’ code.
To answer whoever asked how intergrating IE into the OS will be different than it has been since IE4, from what I understand from the article, when IE7 (or whatever the next version of IE is called) comes out, since it will ‘require’ underlying changes to the OS, you won’t be able to download it as standalone in your current version of Windows – you’ll have to upgrade to the new version of Windows in order to get it.
Now, assuming that’s true and assuming the ‘underlying changes to the OS’ happen in Longhorn and not a service pack to WinXP, AND if IE 6.01 is indeed the last ‘stand alone’ browser, since Longhorn is not due out until 2005, then that could possibly mean we won’t see a new version of IE for two years. So, the alternative browsers may have about two more years to live before the beast is unleashed
IE7 probably won’t blow the competition away as far as features go, but it’ll probably be wedged so far up the ass of Longhorn, when website authors start taking advantage of features in IE that will only work as part of Longhorn, it may be difficult-to-impossible for the alterantive browsers to stay compatiable.
This must be because the anti-trust case has ended now.
Whenever I use windows ( not much lately) and have to install software, I let the kid do it. He’s 4. He can barely read, but he knows how to install software. So I guess MS has an agreement with a 4 yr old? LOL. No EULA for me, MS has targeted a illiterate minor. Am I liable as his parent? I suppose so, but I didnt read the agreement either.
I find that funny.
From the article:
“Microsoft believes that the browser is functionally complete, and can only be improved by adding eye candy that’s made possible by the underlying platform (Longhorn, in this case).”
If the author thinks that only eye candy will be added by Longhorn he’s way off. DRM and “Trusted Computing” will be the added “features”. Lets face it, Linux, and Unix desktop users are a blip compared to Windows, adoption by ecommerce sites of this technology will effectively lock us out of a whole section of the Internet, and will force Win95/98 users (still the vast majority) to upgrade.
The only scenario which may prevent this is the rapid uptake of mobile technologies such as 3G, GPRS WiFi etc. where Microsoft does not have much presence. I have noticed in the UK that an increasing number of sites (including my bank) will work using Links and other text based browsers. This has nothing to do with these corporations having a sudden awareness of Linux users, but rather with the requirement for access via a cellphone.
The problem is not to integrate the browser or not, IE is *not* compliant with standards; that’s why it suck.
Using Internet Explorer on Windows is calling the spyware trash apps to get into your computer. You are forced to reply NO all the time to those damn ActiveX prompts to install Gator and all that kind of trash, and even if you always hit NO, you’ll still have tracking cookies and other spyware that you never gave permission for. And if you want popup blocking, you have to use a separate program, which will let the popup load for a fraction of a second before closing it. Using Netscape or Mozilla, you don’t have any of those damn ActiveX spyware controls, and embedded popup blocking which works perfectly in most cases, not letting the popup load for even a tenth of a second.
Do the test, run a scan with Spybot, clean all the trashware, then use IE for a day and then run Spybot again. You’ll see all the new spyware in your system. Not do another scan with Spybot, clean the system, and then run Netscape for a week if you want. No spyware at all, unless it came from another program you installed. IE sucks, use Netscape for PC and Safari for Mac
Me
Transparent PNG support is an often requested feature, it’s strange that he wouldn’t have an answer. But it’s even stranger that they haven’t managed to implement this yet. PNG is an open standard that most other modern browsers seem to be able to display.
Personally I can’t see any reasons why IE would need to be integrated into the OS to improve it. Other browsers manage to be faster and more feature rich than IE without OS integration. I wonder if “Legacy OSes have reached their zenith” will be used as an excuse not to release other apps for older versions of Windows. This just seems like a way of trying to force users to upgrade their OS.
Since using IE in Windows XP quite often causes sudden and unexpexted system reboot, I think it more or less already is tied up with the Windows itself.
This is old news. This has been said before like last year. MS said it couldn’t seperate the browser from the OS because they where tightly integrated.
The next version of IE will be deeply integrated with the DRM functionality of the underlying OS. You will not be able to see/use/etc many websites unless you have the proper certificates and such.
If you stop at Walmart, buy a new brain and a bag of common sense.
I’m seriously getting sick and annoyed by that againsttcpa.com propaganda.
You really didn’t have much to say yourself, weeman.
However: Uhm, “You will not be able to see/use/etc many websites unless you have the proper certificates and such.” is ridiculous. Web page designers will have to implement it themselves. I seriously doubt 99.9% of them give a flying fsck about whether their site viewers have certificates. Get realistic!
Is that what we call corruption???
M|cro$oft pay $750 million to A0L, to end lawsuit intended to bring justice to Netscape. This sounds the death for the Net_scape browser… and Micro$soft will be able to integrate IE, that lots of users claim that we don’t are obliged to have it installed in our computer. We want to choose our browser, simple as that. Net_scape have tabs in their browser, wich simplifies navegation in internet. We don’t have lots of windows opened:) and to finish IE is buggy.
M|cro$soft uses corruption to grow up, look at this case (A0L) and to SCO… Am I right or wrong?
This just further proves the importance of Open Source operating systems. It’s not even important to compete anymore, it’s important to have a free and open alternative which is good enough to serve this role for the majority of people.
Sometimes, you need to see the bigger picture with the eyes of a human.
Spark: Open-Source kills the programmer:(
If you really want to know where Microsoft wants you (and your business) to go next, then take a look at this:
http://aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html
[Note: somewhat longish but packed to the brim with vital information]
Now seems to be the perfect time to start looking for alternatives to Microsoft.
if you can’t upgrade your browser…
It will be another way to force users to spend money to upgrade their OS… Think about it – If you use an older browser – it gives an error message – must use IE 5 or higher or such. What happens when XP will only run IE 6 and websites start saying you must upgrade to a higher version of IE. Which means upgrading to longhorn for IE7 or even higher. Another way to force users to upgrade. Another reason to switch to open source.
If you think IE is lacking features, try avantbrowser. It’s *not* another standalone browser, but merely a wrapper for IE.
Key features:
tabbed MDI interface
integrated pop-up killer
integrated google-interface
enhanced use of mouse buttons (sequential kombinations of buttons have effects too)
In addition to this, there’s hundreds of great improvements that make browsing so much easier. I have tried Mozilla, Firebird and Konqueror, and i must say, Avantbrowser is the best one of these – at least IMHO.
http://www.avantbrowser.com
Yesh. I highly doubt IE is going into the kernel. That would be criminally insane, given that on all my Windows machines, IE crashes at least once a day. Most likely, it’s being integrated into the core API framework, at user level. It’s not really a bad idea, at the face of it: KHTML is tightly integrated into KDE after all, with the end result being that there are lots of applications that can display HTML. However, if you have any memory of recent history, you’d distrust MS’s motives, especially because of the way this integration is being done. In KDE’s case, KHTML is merely a component, and easily replacable by any component with the same API. IE is much more tightly integrated, and harder to remove. This actually requires *more* work on their part, because the COM mechanism on which Windows is based inherently encourages modular, pluggable code. To make IE that tightly integrated requires going against the grain of the architecture, so to speak.
Legacy OSes have reached their zenith with the addition of IE 6 SP1
By doing this they can drop support for IE on the older OSes. It’s that simple. This, combined with the aforementioned capabilities that will only be supported on XP and later make this a slam dunk decision on their part.
Right, because all programmers are making their money with selling licenses for proprietory mainstream software.
GET A DAMN CLUE.
The services of a programmer will always be required and payed for, the only thing that will die is the ability to make easy money by selling licenses for mediocre software. Maybe we won’t see software companies making 40 billion profits anymore. I’ll shed a tear for them.
The whole f***ing trial in the U.S was a Microsoft Mac-like switch campaign! The dollar is weaker than euro but justice in the U.S seems to be much weaker….
jens wrote: “dude, just dont buy the piece of shit! get a mac or a x86 with one of the open OS’s”
Agreed. Microsoft loathes the free market for a reason. It is still the best place to fight them. Refuse to pay for their products or even use them. There are still plenty of alternatives to the shit that Big Brother Gates is forcing down the throat of the sheeple. I run Mac OS X and am very happy with it. There are also numerous Linux distros for Intel hardware, and even more obscure alternative operating systems. Microsloth is NOT the only game in town. Yet. Lets see that Gates never gets his way.
Will Avantbrowser
…make IE secure?
…make IE less crash prone?
…make IE follow CSS standards?
…make IE Linux/BSD compatible?
…untie IE from Windows?
Then I might consider using it.
The problem is that a lot of applications and especially games needs Windows. Until those developpers write the sofwares for both OSes then People will still neeed Windows.
In KDE’s case, KHTML is merely a component, and easily replacable by any component with the same API. IE is much more tightly integrated, and harder to remove
I assume you have never heard of the Mozilla NG Layout ActiveX control. It can’t replace IE’s WebBrowser control merely for lack of features (many programs can’t just use it to display HTML, but expect some amount of integration). You can also replace (through the OOP principle of polymorphism) or tunnel (containment) the handlers for HTTP, FTP and other protocols (how do you think GetRight and other download managers can capture links from IE?)
However, there’s many non-technical reasons why it doesn’t always work. For example, many programs hardcode class names and ids, so you have to either crack the executables or replace manually the entries in the COM registration database – only to have them overwritten by the next update…
There are things missing or badly implemented in the IE renderer, things that something like Avant browser can’t correct.
– Were is the support for real xhtml pages for instance ? (with mime type application/xhtml+xml)
– Why does IE switches to Quirks mode when an xhtml document starts with a “<?xml…” tag ?
– Why does IE breaks text on hypens ?
– Why does IE renders a text/plain document as html whenever if finds the characters “<html” anywhere in the text ?
And so many more… (like PNG & CSS but we already talked about it)
Fortunately we have Mozilla Firebird, but since IE owns the market, web developers are stuck… 😛
The Final Judgment in the recent antitrust case states that
No provision of this Final Judgment shall:
1. Require Microsoft to document, disclose or license to third parties: (a) portions of APIs or Documentation or portions or layers of Communications Protocols the disclosure of which would compromise the security of a particular installation or group of installations of anti-piracy, anti-virus, software licensing, digital rights management, encryption or authentication systems, including without limitation, keys, authorization tokens or enforcement criteria….
Once the DRM is fully implemented, Microsoft can legally withhold information about file formats and security mechanisms from competitors. Not only that but any reverse-engineering of how Windows works will be covered by the DMCA and will be considered a Federal crime, punishable by up to 5 years in prison and $500,000 fine. This part of the settlement was crafted with the DOJ to make Windows into the premier Total Information Awareness tool.
Of course this prevents the creation of compatible third-party software, locking customers into Microsoft software. Seeing how you can’t even easily transfer security from one install of the OS to another, think how expensive and difficult it will be to transfer your ‘secure’ information to another platform.
So people and companies are faced with a difficult choice now before the super-DRM version of Windows ships. Do they continue to use Windows forever or do they honestly look at alternatives?
The problem is not with the technology. While I would personally vote for modularity, I am aware that some well-informed people can disagree with that.
The real problem is with MS and their business practices. Regardless of the technical merits, or lack thereof, of this arrangement, a thing like this can potentially graduate into mischief and anti-competitive behaviour when implemented by an aggresive monopoly like MS.
Even if they don’t abuse it in the long run, anything that will help to kill standards, reduce options, and potentially expand government power is dangerous. Some people think this is a paranoid joke, but just look at the american media, and how it has been almost utterly usurped by corporate and political agenda, and you can begin to understand why the internet must remain free.
However: Uhm, “You will not be able to see/use/etc many websites unless you have the proper certificates and such.” is ridiculous. Web page designers will have to implement it themselves. I seriously doubt 99.9% of them give a flying fsck about whether their site viewers have certificates. Get realistic!
You miss the major advantage to web site operators. There will be no way to VIEW SOURCE or RIGHT CLICK and COPY the page OR SAVE or COPY an image or the page itself. So yes, they wil implement it, to protect their content. And no, you won’t be able to get in with another browser.
Once it becomes widely used and popular, it will probably require IIS 8.4 + Winserver 2009 on the backend as well. One more way to drive windows sales and actually crack apache’s dominance.
I guess I only have couple of words for the rest of us that don’t like M$. Get busy making a better alternative… This is competition getnlemen. It’s not always by the rules but we have competition… So get busy coding, testing and enjoying free software. It’ll come to you. Don’t worry just don’t panic.
Avant Browser is just IE with additional features. So it’s still a closed browser, it’s still as insecure as IE and it’s still not W3C standard compliant. I prefer an open, secure, W3C standards compliant browser. So.. no thanks.
It’s not competition when the USGOVT has given the market to one company.
It will be a crime to use a non-DRM OS within a few years.
Don’t get paranoiac. I doubt operators will bother to do that. It’s not like HTML code is that important, neither images.
IMO, that “feature” would be useful only for online shops & banks. However, it would be a financial suicide for them to force the users to use a specific version of Windows/IE for their services, don’t you think? Even big corporations like Amazon or eBay wouldn’t be able to survive by requiring a specific OS/browser for their services as the majority would only look elsewhere.
Maybe, but only in the US. I doubt that other countries will adopt a law like this, so non-DRM OSes will still be around. You’ll just have to move somewhere else or do a little bit of civil disobedience if you want to be free.
I thought it was already integrated since Win95B…
I thought that to, I haven’t seen a IE box in a store forever anyway.
I am absolutely shocked that microsoft would do such a thing.
Why in God’s name would you be shocked? I seriously hope this was sarcasm.
I’m going to repeat what a couple of people have already brought up: isn’t this going against the settlement? Good Lord, I wish Thomas Pennfield Jackson had just kept his big mouth shut…then, he wouldn’t have recused himself from the case, and MS would have been brought down a couple of pegs (and wound up two or three different companies, to boot). However, it was the judge who replaced him (can’t remember her name, and I’m too lazy to look it up) who was absolutely spineless…it was looking like she wasn’t going to do much, hence the settlement as it is. Too bad.
By the way, isn’t it funny that there are a few jackasses out there who find any excuse to bash the US? Especially juvenile is taking a single case as the paradigm of US governmental movements/legal norms/corporate practices, etc. Jealousy, anyone? If you really don’t like us that much, stop using our products and services (which you’re probably already enjoying right now anyway). There are lots of great people on the international scene…you just make them look bad.
Ok, I don’t like IE any more than the next guy, but people really need to get their facts straight …
And if you want popup blocking [in IE], you have to use a separate program, which will let the popup load for a fraction of a second before closing it.
You’re right about needing a third party program, but the part about popups loading for a second only happen with popup blockers that suck. Other popup killers will prevent them from displaying entirely.
Anyway, the popup killer I was using for IE (The Proxomitron) I also use for Firebird because it serves so many other purposes than just killing popups.
and even if you always hit NO [to ActiveX controls], you’ll still have tracking cookies and other spyware that you never gave permission for.
Will not tracking cookies happen no matter what browser you use, unless you turn them off? Also, assuming you say No to ActiveX controls, exactly what kind of spyware will still get installed on your machine by IE?
Also, for those of you who talk about IE ‘crashing once a day’ or constantly rebooting/crashing your machine, you seriously need to get off of Win9x if you’re going to talk about such things as if they actually still apply, or else clarify what OS you are using. Having used IE on the NT kernel since 2001, I have never had IE bring down or reboot the OS, and it crashes far less frequently than either Mozilla/Phoenix/Firebird or Opera.
Insecure it may be, but I haven’t had any major problems with stability since upgrading to Win2k. Even on Win98 it was pretty stable for me, but had a habit of bringing down the OS when it died.
If you are a fan of AvanteBrowser, I would suggest you check out a browser called MyIE2 – it is better, IMHO. I use it at work because our Intranet only works with an IE browser.
MS is counting on SCO, consumer ignorance/stupdity/laziness and another 4 years of Bush and Cheney. They can pretty much do as they please because I don’t see anyone with the power to stop them.
Mozilla 1.3.1 and 1.4 is much superior browser than IE .
I am not sure why people still use IE I do all my online trading and shopping, brwosing in Mozilla . If any site that does fnot ollow stantard the webmaster gets a friendly email from me about it.
Mozilla is million times more secure, stable, easier and more features than IE.
Oh, forgot to mention that I’m doing all my web browsing on Mozilla and Opera. I prefer Opera (haven’t tried 7 yet), but once in a while a web site doesn’t quite come up correctly on it, so I then use Mozilla. I love them both. I have Netscape 6.(?) too, but it takes so long to boot up that I don’t bother with it any more. IE is not for me…not because I seriously dislike the way MS does things, but simply because–as has been stated here many times–it is behind in useful features. I hope for the sake of everyday consumers who don’t understand that they can download much better products for free that MS addresses this soon.
Money speaks. Paper is paper. But This green paper is so different.
U.S.A. government is not for people, it is for money. Just have a look at what MS is doing and what the government is doing, you can see.
But they all tell you they do everything for you.
When the money havs chance to be mixed with power, you are not free and will be treated like a fool.
—It’s not competition when the USGOVT has given the market to one company.
Sure, People are the goods of GOVT. It can sale you to some company.
—It will be a crime to use a non-DRM OS within a few years.
It seems like to be true, because USGOVT love M$ so much, even the court is used for show.
We need more than 1 OS company to foster innovation and lower prices because competition is good. I hope Linux and Apple hang tough, maybe even band together in some way to fight back against Microsoft.
Somehow, I get the feeling that Microsoft working with SCO will be a coffin in the nail to Linux. And with Apple barely hanging on while Microsoft copies whatever they like from Apple, I see nothing but Microsoft in our future. And in more ways than computing.
– Mark
“And with Apple barely hanging on while Microsoft copies whatever they like from Apple, I see nothing but Microsoft in our future. And in more ways than computing. ”
–Sure, why not enter the food market? Then we’ll have MicroBurgers and MicroDonuts. Or how about cars? MicroSUV or MicroTruck, or even a MicroRig with 3 wheels and a 53′ trailer… Or how about Railroads? Maybe MicroTrains…
“Having used IE on the NT kernel since 2001, I have never had IE bring down or reboot the OS, and it crashes far less frequently than either Mozilla/Phoenix/Firebird or Opera.”
I can’t comment on Mozilla/Phoenix/Firebird, but for me Opera 7 has been amazingly stable on Win XP. I’ve only had a couple of crashes since I installed it, and I tend to have it running constantly with 20+ windows open. I can’t compare it with IE on the same system since I’ve hardly used it since installing Opera. But on my previous Win2k system I often had IE become unresponsive after running for a while with a large number of windows open.
Also, Opera restarts with the windows that were open when it crashed, while with IE you lose all the windows. Even if IE is just as stable as Opera, crashes are much more annoying and time consuming because it lacks that feature.
I don’t understand it. Why exactly do we need DRM aside from shutting up the RIAA ( I think I got that one right, you know the music nazi’s) and the MPAA. It’s all crap. Broadband has failed to delivered on it’s promise or at least it has here in Australia and there is no way I am interested in using music/movies downloaded from the web for keeping/enjoyment playback. Most of the quality is crap but I might preview some music to get an idea if it’s worth buying. As for online transactions, I’m sure things are fine without MS’s ugly footprint all over secure services. I haven’t had any problems with online transactions or credit card fraud.
Just sounds like total BullSh*t to capture complete internet dominance which has been an agenda of MicroSoft for quite some time. Ever since they discovered the internet and started taking on Netscape. Oh well, as far as DRM is concerned it can go and blow itself I’ll stick to what I can to promote an open system of information exchange not a MS one.
Hanging out for Zeta and would love Opera 7.0 to be written for it but I can only hope at the moment. Anyway, If I get sick of MS there is always Linux which will be very user capable within the next couple of years. It has come a long way and is progressing nicely every couple of generations but Zeta is my OS of choice (from a user point of view).
> Same arguments people had 10 years ago: “why do we need a
> networking stack to come with the OS and be tied in to the
> kernel?” Well, today it is obvious why, back then it wasn’t
> for most. Sometimes, you need to see the bigger picture with
> the eyes of a strategist or an senior engineer.
Also, considering that UNIX, OpenVMS and a number of other operating systems already had it bundled, it was more the matter of, “why did it take so long Microsoft to include those basic networking features?”. On UNIX, sure, one could run MorningStar PPP Instead of the built in one (normally PPPD, which is based on ANU (Australian National University) code), however, one was never forced to purchase third party tools to get networking working 😉
As for Internet Explorer, how can it be so techical that one would have to only include it in the new version of Windows? considering in theory all Internet Explorer is a COM application that combines the html/xml/etc dlls + explorer into a browser, what is so low level that one would need the re-writing of the OS to make it possible?
Why would they care about Internet Explorer running on Linux? what they do want is a big ball of code centred around their Trojan Horse named Palladium.
What will be even more funny is when we see the Windows fan-boys will find they can no longer easily download copyright material off Kazaa and might actually have to buy things rather than stealing them.
Well, it can be useful for governments and large corporations…
Btw, DRM isn’t a Microsoft-only thing. Other vendors are/will develop some form of DRM. Even Linus said that DRM would be okay in its kernel.
What I don’t understand is why they don’t make their HTML renderer (along with plugin support) an embed-able object that their browser can use to display HTML data? That way, someone can write a wrapper interface to the Gecko engine and users can choose which engine they want (but the same “browser app”).
and users can choose which engine they want (but the same “browser app”).
That’s exactly why they didn’t make the renderer like that…
Browser, schmowser… look at the bugger picture. The web is not about browsers anymore… It’s about services and best platform that can harness the power of them. The static pages (akin to bulletin boards) are less and less found out there. The web is transforming and we should adapt out tools to it. And our point of view too
I’m saying let’s produce something better than a browser. Let’s put more value in Linux, *BSD or any other preferred OS. Let’s build open standards free of DRM and promote them. With all our power. It’s a lot greater than M$ power!
DONE
hmm, I wish I’d preview my message… sorry for the typos
you get the idea…
Erm….huh? Less and less found? Last time I checked, there were millions. Services? Kinda sounds buzzwordy.
Ok, maybe the sentence is a strech but I think you understand the fact that the web is not about serving simple text files that can be interpreted by any browser anymore. It’s about the features that are integrated in any page served and it’s the web application (broad definition here) that the user experiences when visiting the web. This is evolution and it is something GOOD. Somehow after all these years of battles and struggles on both sides IE and suite has a better position. I would like to see more consensus on the fact that an alternative can be built together and have faith that it will be built.
Honestly, I’d prefer the simple text files. The vast majority of the “web application” crap that is used on the Web (useless flash, java, ASP, JSP, etc etc etc) would be better done with simple, honest-to-God HTML. I think the web is most certainly about serving simple text files, and I hope it remains so. Sure, web applications have their place, but for easy access to content nothing beats standards-compliant HTML.
Actually, I was kind of hoping that ‘web services’ would fizzle out like a bad fart, just like ‘push technology’ that came before it.
When I think about web services, I think of a handful of corporations trying to do things with the web that is probably better done somewhere else, just trying to find the ‘next big thing.’ I think about almost no benefit at all for the endu-user, or the ‘consumers’ as the commercial bastards like to call us. Oh wait .. maybe somebody will be able to email or IM my cell phone. Yeah, great .. more communications from schmucks I don’t care to hear from in the first place, just what I was waiting for. So where do I sign up?
The web is about web pages, and hypertext – why can’t they form some other protocol/medium to do all this other crap and leave the web for what it was originally designed for, to display web pages?
I don’t know about the potential for future IE integration into the OS, but what is the reality on the ground.
I’ve been running windows XP pro for so long now, I can’t even remember the last time it crashed. Much less the last time IE brought down the whole system. MS stability has been on the steady rising for years now. If they truly feel that integrating IE into the OS, I doubt its going to be done in a manner that will risk the stability of the whole OS.
As to evolving technology? Perhaps this is the next step in evolving “web-browsers.” Creating browsers to display static content has been done…I kind of agree him when he says that browsers have basically peaked. I haven’t seen anything really change (on the user ends) on the web in years. Maybe this will lead to some kind of secure MP3 downloading or whatever. Sure it will be a monopoly…but hey…it is an evolution.
Either way. For now, I’ll continue to use Firebird as my browser…because its simply a better product. Trillian as the messenger service. Winamp as the media player. All products can coexist.
I don’t mind MS budling whatever software they want. They will get you started. I wouldn’t have been able to get Firebird without using IE very easiliy. People will use the software they like. Winamp has managed to ‘infiltrate’ all users, even though WIndows media player is there. How did it do it? That is what the other products need to do.
I had redhat 7.3 installed and gnorpm used to lock up the system everytime on a consistent basis. How it managed that, I don’t know. Can’t blame that on bad drivers…Was it integrated or something? (I really don’t know…I just stopped using it).
you people read my words too narrowly
you goofs. Look at this site where you read this message. Is it made of html files? are you email-ing your text to Eugenia to get posted to the board? mmm… NO. You can enter it directly and it will be served by the PHP script designed to do just that. It will deposit it in a database as a record and you and others will be able to search on it any time. … and that is because this website runs an WEB APPLICATION. It might not be a web services application but it is definetely an application as custom code is put together for it to function. It is still producing HTML page as it would be a static page but this is just the equivalent of an optical illusion for the browser if you want. we can go on and on about many topics when discussing about web technologies but I think that we need to evolve. And reaching out for improved ways to use the web is key.
However, this particular Web application CAN be rendered with (literally) any browser, which is one of this site’s cool features. So your point is moot.
Yeah, I may just be looking at it from a 20 minutes into the future point of view and not five years down the road, but I like that you can code web sites of the dynamic, server-side parsing/database nature and not worry that some one has some feature disabled in their browser or something. Keeping the real work on the server and letting the browser be the “window” to that resource is an elegant and logical (at the moment) solution. Standards compliancy in the viewer’s browser is also a nice dream in this mold. But I do think dynamic sites are tending to be the norm and can’t really be called the future. Everybody’s starting to do it now, because it just makes sense.
Now, I do admit, I’m not really a programmer, and I have a hard time speculating on what this tightly-intergrated browser could truly offer. I mean, would it just be so the operating system can use things like DRM or is there some really great idea out there that can’t be accomplished by suping up and innovating on the server and leaving these poor browsers free-standing and light-weight?
Just my 2c but here’s what I think will happen:
– Countries such as India will being using OSS, as their academics and government are actively trying to promote.
– More “non-Western” countries will adopt this stance.
– The internet will become split, not on a language barrier but a technical one. The West/America will remain tied to their monopoly whilst everyone else is out there using inovative/free technologies.
– Some development/invention/change will occur that is ground-breaking. The West will want it but will come to the stark and shocking conclusion that they have been barking up the wrong (MS) tree.
– Eventually the West will become a second-class information country as they are too far behind.
. Winamp has managed to ‘infiltrate’ all users, even though WIndows media player is there. How did it do it? That is what the other products need to do.
WinAmp did what most other applications don’t get a chance to do: it was one of the first widely-used applications to play mp3 files. Why is it still widely-used? Because it has mindshare, it’s what people have used for the long term so it’s what they still use. The only reason I don’t still use it is because it couldn’t handle my playlists as well as wmp 8/9.
Personally, I don’t like the idea that MS might think that they can’t do any further inprovement to IE without underlying OS changes. As mentioned before, most of the features that are standard in other browsers wouldn’t require any changes at the OS level, they’re basically just interface changes to IE (tabbed browsing for instance) and/or customization of the behavior of the application when certain html/javascript is used (pop-up blocking).
No, I think that WAS his point. PHP basically serves up an html document to browsers on-the-fly. All the scripting is server side, rather than on your computer. The point is, you can have server side web programming that is interactive, that can be displayed in any web browser.
Uhh… IE has been intergrated with the OS’s since like… Win95… So what the hell is this about? I have never had to buy my own copy of IE, it came with windows… So what are you guys talking about?
Didn’t they had some bullshit about the fact that it was TO integrated in the OS a couple of years ago with netscape ???
And btw : Mozilla ( engine , i use Firebird ) renders better then IE and has tabbed browsing , only some fucked up ugly frontpage site’s that don’t follow standards might give probs but there are sites that are rendered better with mozilla then with IE , and those few site’s aren’t worth visiting
As I keept reading these posts I found myselfe getting more and more irritated, but then came Darius and said what I was thinking! Seriosly, people are saying that windows are so insecure and unstable! Try Win2k, throw WinXP along with WinME in the anti-m$’s favorite referece when they brag about Linux, Mac aso…
Since I installed Win2k I haven’t had any problems with security and craches, so whats the big deal anyway? OMFG a new virus is on the loose, a new security fault has hit M$ this morning, ASO! But when was the last time I lost data on my drive? Had an intruder on my computer? Id say, 10 years ago, don’t beleave me? Well as a swedish saying goes, If you don’t know what hit you, why should you care?
(pardon my english, just wanted share my oppinion about this)
My quasi-informed views are worthless, but i’ll post them anyway. First off, the majority of posters here represent the small minority of people who actually have a gripe against Microsoft or an acute interest in the course of the software industry in general. Whenever some change occurs, like the proposed DRM technology or the integration of IE, they react with speculation and prophecies of doom and so on and so forth. Speculation is 80% personal opinion and 20% fact at best; so before everyone begins panicking about how Microsoft will dominate our lives, realize that the most of the world doesn’t revolve around it. Having said that, I think that Microsoft has acted like a jackass in the past, continues to do so now; however, as far as Longhorn and IE integration go, I think that the company has enough talent and, given their current development plans, perhaps foresight to release something innovative and decent that will redeem it. Until we see the final product, everything that everyone says is nothing more than pure speculation.
By extrude (IP: —.alvkarleby.net) – Posted on 2003-06-02 21:14:23
As I keept reading these posts I found myselfe getting more and more irritated, but then came Darius and said what I was thinking! Seriosly, people are saying that windows are so insecure and unstable! Try Win2k, throw WinXP along with WinME in the anti-m$’s favorite referece when they brag about Linux, Mac aso…
Since I installed Win2k I haven’t had any problems with security and craches, so whats the big deal anyway? OMFG a new virus is on the loose, a new security fault has hit M$ this morning, ASO! But when was the last time I lost data on my drive? Had an intruder on my computer? Id say, 10 years ago, don’t beleave me? Well as a swedish saying goes, If you don’t know what hit you, why should you care?
(pardon my english, just wanted share my oppinion about this)
Hmm… Have you ever hosted a server, ran games? Do you leave your computer on 24/7? Ever ran a network? Well.. If you do all these things and don’t have problems, your computer is amazing. I have winXP and have problems about every 6 months… Which is not too much of a problem.
I’m busy writing this in Firebird 0.6 – I have more or less ditched ie due to it’s ‘swiss cheese’ of security holes.
I find it hard to believe that m$ won’t be updating thier browser until the release of Longhorn (or whatever it’s going to be called)
ie will get left behind for another 12 to 18 months while other browsers just keep getting better.
Tabbed browsing, mouse gestures, ad and pop-up blocking – none of these features are currently supported in a default ie install.