Running out of ink? The Apple online store carries several varieties, as users of the company’s next-generation operating system may soon find out.
Apple integrates online store into Mac OS X Tiger application?
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
Talking about how to kill a great OS.
I hope this feature can be turned off..
Oh wait… not anymore.
A mirror would be handy.
yes this idea of adds in the software sux i hope people at apple see how dumb this is….
I dont see why you think this is such a bad idea? It’s not like it’d force you to use it. I think it’d be nice that if i’m low on ink for it to let me know and give me the option to buy it right then and there. Knowing apple I think they will create a much more elegant solution where there is just a buy ink button that didnt require the website to load and such. Either way its not liek they force you to use this feature and its not like it’ll automatically pop up if your low.
I think its a pretty good idea. It seems to be done in a very tasteful way, and is genuinely useful and handy. I hope they keep it tasteful though, as somthing like this can easily go to far.
After all, the people who were pissed at Microsoft integrating IE should be practically speechless with rage at this sort of thing…
This feature is built into Phasers and possibly all their Centreware management software. You can use it if you want or not.
We don’t know how (or even if) Apple will implement it. Could it allow you to choose your store? Does it go beyond printer ink to other supplies? Might there be other third party support?
drsmithy: get your facts straight! When microsoft included ie it was an attempt to take over the browser market, which they did.
Including a button in a settings dialog to buy more ink is far from the same thing.
I assure you can still go to the store on the corner to get that ink!!
Take it for what it is. i.e. just a button that will present you with a online store where you can choose to buy stuff.
/me turns interest in other direction
“get your facts straight! When microsoft included ie it was an attempt to take over the browser market, which they did.”
Consider for one moment the other side of the coin. At the time MS included IE with the operating system it was light years ago in terms of internet access. How do you connect to the internet without anything to connect with? Keep in mind things were not then, as they are now.
In many ways MS including a browser with the OS was a great idea at the time. It saved everyone from purchasing a browser, offered basic means of connectivity, and generally enabled access to millions who likely still wouldn’t be connected.
Last time I checked all distros of Linux included at least one browser.(if not several) Not that this is an attempt to capture the market, however it’s certainly indicates including a browser with an OS is required.
People wouldn’t complain as much about the IE-integration if it was easily removeable.
“How do you connect to the internet without anything to connect with?”
That would be with the CD that your ISP provided you with. You know, the CD that gives you the choice of whether you want to install Netscape Navigator or Internet Explorer?
So much for those days…
dude, my point is that while MS included ie as a strategic move to take or the browser market from netscape this apple-ink story is hardly worth mentioning. its nothing but a tiny button in a settings frame that takes you to their on-line store.
And for that linux “including browsers” comparison i give nothing. The MS issue was one of monopoly – I cant see any linux distro being in any such position.
Why must they show me the option of buying printer goods in the first place? most people who own a printer already have a supplier and why would you want to keep bugging someone with commercials and adware? makes the system more bloated, more unsecure, more unfun to use etc.. I really do not get it. Before you know it OS will become free but you get bugged with commercials, adware and all other sort of nonsense things the marketing department breads out. Bah!
drsmithy: get your facts straight! When microsoft included ie it was an attempt to take over the browser market, which they did.
So what makes you think Apple isn’t trying to take over the online printer ink selling business ?
Your argument is specious – *all* companies are trying to “take over” some business, that’s the whole point they exist.
Including a button in a settings dialog to buy more ink is far from the same thing.
It’s *exactly* the same thing. Microsoft provide an integrated browser to improve the user experience and reduce the need for the user to acquire third party software. Apple include a handy link to their online store to make purchasing ink cartridges easier for their users.
I assure you can still go to the store on the corner to get that ink!!
You could always install an alternative web browser on Windows, as well.
Take it for what it is. i.e. just a button that will present you with a online store where you can choose to buy stuff.
That’s what I’ve always said about IE, as well. It’s just a conveniently integrated web browser you can choose to use – or not.
It’s *exactly* the same thing. Microsoft provide an integrated browser to improve the user experience…
It’s not exactly the same thing. Apple isn’t giving the ink away for free, nor are they laying traps to make purchases from other stores harder to accomplish. Remember that Windows was found to sabotage non-IE browsers.
This new feature of OSX is actually a clever concept, which as someone has pointed out, other companies have already implemented.
I personally hope it can be disabled, just as I don’t have to use Safari to browse the internet. I also wonder whether it violates anti-trust laws, but I figure that Apple’s competitors will go after them if it does. Since their competitors haven’t gone after their other companies that do it, I doubt there’s anything illegal about it.
Is Apple selling the ink, or just directing people towards various ink suppliers on their store (possibly getting a cut form the one with the highest position)?
If the situation is like the former it is like Microsoft and IE (using current market position to extend themselves into a new market).
If like the latter it isn’t at all, just making things easier whilst maintaining customer choice. Nobody else is doing this at the moment (intergrating inks sales into the print dialog), so they arn’t killing anyone’s business (unlike IE).
So long as this is just a small button that opens a web page I don’t really mind, however if it becomes some anying banner ad then I would obvect to that.
object not obvect
Ah! If MS did this, the whole world would be screaming.
Apple does it, and it is considered brilliant.
Different set of standards.
It’s not exactly the same thing. Apple isn’t giving the ink away for free, nor are they laying traps to make purchases from other stores harder to accomplish.
The ink isn’t the IE analog, Apple’s online store is.
Microsoft didn’t “lay traps” to make installing alternative browsers harder to accomplish either.
Remember that Windows was found to sabotage non-IE browsers.
No, I don’t.
This new feature of OSX is actually a clever concept, […]
So was an integrated HTML engine OS component, back in 1996.
[…] which as someone has pointed out, other companies have already implemented.
Uh, which is similar to Apple’s integration into *their* sole-sourced product to redirect *their* clients to *their* on-line store how, exactly ?
Is Apple selling the ink, or just directing people towards various ink suppliers on their store (possibly getting a cut form the one with the highest position)?
It apparently directs to Apple’s online store. Somehow I doubt they’re giving away shop space for free.
If like the latter it isn’t at all, just making things easier whilst maintaining customer choice.
Uh, you mean just like IE did ?
Nobody else is doing this at the moment (intergrating inks sales into the print dialog), so they arn’t killing anyone’s business (unlike IE).
IE killed Netscape’s business because their products became uncompetitive. Had Netscape spent more time improving their products and less time beating their chests, they might still have competitive.
As long as it’s not as annoying and blatant as the ads they had in Sherlock 2 for OS 9 then i can probably live with it. They’ve seriously have to have a way to turn it off though… imagine a networked printer getting low on ink or toner and then having 20 people find out about it at the same time and 20 people ordering cartridges for it.
Your argument is specious – *all* companies are trying to “take over” some business, that’s the whole point they exist.
That’s a pretty pessimistic view. Not all companies tries to “rule the world”. Some are just interested in providing people with good products and make some money off it, some are just trying to make a decent living by providing common products or services.
The companies that tries to rule the world are often led by corporate phsycopaths who has lost contact with the real world. It’s a mental illness, not a business strategy.
And it’s those people and their followers who makes capitalism fail so badly.
Ah! If MS did this, the whole world would be screaming.
Apple does it, and it is considered brilliant.
Different set of standards.
That’s a blatantly untrue statement. In Windows XP go to “My Pictures”. Notice the convenient “Order prints online” button on the left. No, Microsoft doesn’t run the store, but I’d be willing to bet that they either get a percentage or were paid to include the companies listed.
Try this one. From “My Pictures” click on “Sample Pictures”. Now you might notice the “Shop for pictured online” button. This one -is- directly linked to a Microsoft site.
I’ve never heard anyone (from either side of the aisle) complain about this ‘feature’ from Microsoft. I cannot believe that so many people are upset about this new addition by Apple; I cannot believe that this is news.
“Ah! If MS did this, the whole world would be screaming.”
MS did already this to buy CD-Audio.
“That would be with the CD that your ISP provided you with. You know, the CD that gives you the choice of whether you want to install Netscape Navigator or Internet Explorer?
So much for those days.”
Speaking purely from experience: ISP’s loved it when MS included IE with the OS. It saved them a LOT of money producing those damn CD’s, and solved the problem of how to get them into the hands of potential customers without wasting their efforts.
With IE included connection was reduced to a phone call, rather than a few days spent sending a disc in the mail and then a phone call.
I worked for a small ISP in “those days” and we considered it fantastic.
“I’ve never heard anyone (from either side of the aisle) complain about this ‘feature’ from Microsoft. I cannot believe that so many people are upset about this new addition by Apple; I cannot believe that this is news.”
Saint words, guy. I agree totally. 😉
Why has no one complained about ordering prints online with iPhoto?
It’s just something for the trolls to bash Apple about. As someone else said, how can this be news…
If my print driver could auto-detect the ink level and auto-order a new cartridge when needed, it would be a good thing. _BUT ONLY IF_ the cartridge was sold at a fair, if not even discounted, price. Why not make life less simpler?
how has capitalism failed so badly? what is a better alternative? i thought so.
It simply is adware and petronizing.
This is not a new feature. Its in Panther now, and I believe it was in Jag. It doesn’t flash any adds. Basically you go into the printer settings, it provides you information about your printer, jobs, level of ink (ink jet only), and there’s a button which says “Reorder more Ink”. If you press it it takes you to an online store, If you don’t press it, it doesn’t.
So what’s the big deal? I think its kinda a cool feature if you choose to use it.
I think that Apple should drop this kind of “integration” right now, or they would be doing a great disservice to their users. Apple users will never hear the end of it. Imagine Windows uses calling Apple’s operating system O$ X
It’s dying yes, but failing? no
It’s dying because of capitalism. At least where I live.
Also, it would be interesting if you gave me some clues to why socialism has failed. Because frankly, I can’t see it.
You know, just because a product doesn’t sell doesn’t mean it’s bad. And the other way around.
This is not a politic site.
If you want to write about politic change site, please.
wed128 asked me a question and I gave him an answer.
I guess I should know better and just insult people like everyone else. Sorry.
Ronald and Rain,
Don’t you guys think you’re a little off topic here. Besides you’re both a little confused.
Socialism has to do with a political ideology
Capitilism has to do with economic practices
To this day there are no pure socialistic countires, the ones that have “suceeded” are Social Democrocies such as the UK, Canada, Germany, etc… The econmics thrive becuase the practice Capitalism for the most part. The do have some industires which are controld by the government and that the governments make a monetary profit off of, but for the most part the government allows business to set their own pricing and sell the goods and services that the companies whish.
If when you refer to Capitalism you are equating it to the US. The US does have a Capitalistic economy, but our form of government is a Republic. Where we differ from a Socalistic government is our government does not “own” any industires. For example the railroads are owned by companies who profit from other companies/individuals using them. Where if you go to some places in Europe the government owns the railroads it it collects the profits from the companies/individuals that use them.
Does this help?
I guess you guys have never heard of the age old wisdom that says “if you do not lie then you are less likely to get in trouble (i.e. people that lie a lot tend to forget the various lie and variations of the lies, etc.). For a good example ask one of your friends that has several girlfriends…
Anyway, the point in relation to the subject is that even if this was identical to what MS did (which it is not) people are still justified in applying the “double standard” (if that’s what you choose to call it – I bet you also approach a hooded guy playing with a switch-blade on a street corner at night the same way you approach any of your relatives or friends) because MS has brought about the negative stigma that is attached to them so people will always be wary of their moves until they show themselves to be worthy of anything more than the wolf in wolf’s clothing that they are.
I would only have sympathy for MS had they aquired this “aura” by the way of a 3rd party – you know like when your local pastor is arrested for crime X and then found not only to be not guilty, but innocent as well (i.e. the proof that he/she is innocent is not only beyond reasonable doubt, it leaves no doubt). However, after all the apologies and niceties there is a stigma that cannot removed (obviously this will vary depending on the nature of the accusations and investigation).
BTW: Many of their recent moves show that they still have not reached a turning point yet but they will and when they do it will be so sad/sorry (in a pitying way)- just like seeing the school bully get whooped by the new kid and then having to walk around with their head down. Like I said – sad indeed.
There’s a certain very wise book that causions:
“Do not judge lest ye be judged…”
AND concurrently advises
“You shall know them by their actions…”
Seems contradictive on the surface but if understand oxymorons and paradoxes you will see this is actually some very good advice, kinda like “expect the worst but hope for the best”.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=define%3APARA…
Quoting directly from the court’s findings of fact:
The decision to override the user’s selection of non- Microsoft software as the default browser also directly disinclined Windows 98 consumers to use Navigator as their default browser, and it harmed those Windows 98 consumers who nevertheless used Navigator. In particular, Microsoft exposed those using Navigator on Windows 98 to security and privacy risks that are specific to Internet Explorer and to ActiveX controls.
This is not a new feature. Its in Panther now, and I believe it was in Jag. It doesn’t flash any adds. Basically you go into the printer settings, it provides you information about your printer, jobs, level of ink (ink jet only), and there’s a button which says “Reorder more Ink”. If you press it it takes you to an online store, If you don’t press it, it doesn’t.
I can’t find it on mine, maybe because I’m using a different printer and/or driver? In my case, I press “Utility” to view the ink levels, and the HP inkjet toolbox comes up. That shows the ink levels, but it doesn’t have the button you mention. A different button on a different panel will give me information on buying HP Supplies and take me to HP’s website.
Can you give a detailed description of how you’re doing that? I’m using 10.3.5
First off, as the last poster said, though it is not integrated in the current OS, there are printer drivers that do the same thing. It is like that with Windows drivers to, Lexmark does it I know, cause I have a Lexmark X150.
Now, another thought. If MS was to integrate a feature like this, the implementation would probably be like SP2’s firewall alert, when it is disabled. There would be an icon in the system tray that would pop up an “alert” telling you that you need more ink.
This is just a question. But does anyone else have trouble with the close button on all the Xp “alerts.”? It doesn’t matter if I carefully click on the “X” the damn window always pops up to change settings and such instead of just closing the alert.
“Ah! If MS did this, the whole world would be screaming.
Apple does it, and it is considered brilliant.
Different set of standards.”
Not true at all.
Microsoft already did this. When you open the “My Music” folder under “My Documents” in Windows XP, it launches your web browser (which actually used to force IE, but because of complaints they changed it to accept your default web browser) and sends it to http://windowsmedia.com
The web site is a Microsoft run web site to purchase music online. This is the same exact idea. Did anyone complain? Not that I know of. You can still buy music elsewhere…iTunes, your local music store.
Jack,
Not a problem, You’ll have to give me some time though, I’m at work and don’t have my Mac here. I’ll get you some screen shots with what I’m talking about.
Alot of people here need to calm down. There are no ads, there are no blinking flashing pop up banners that scream you need ink. It is a tiny button in a settings panel for the printer. Its something you’d probably never notice if you idnt know about it.
I personally never noticed the link in the apple menu that says “OSX Software” that leads to apples site, I also never noticed in windows the “shop for music” link in the my music folder. They didnt bother me because i never use them, but i’m sure for people who do use them its a convenience.
Personally i think this a great service for people who arnt good with computers. I used to work at Best Buy and you dont know how many people came in and said they needed ink and didnt know what model or BRAND of printer they have. They’d say, i dunno i bought it from gateway, it must be a gateway printer. For those people (and there are alot of them believe me) this would be an invaluable service. Not only do they not need to know the brand or model number for thier printer, they dont need to memorize ink model numebrs like GHW546u. Great idea apple, keep up the good work.
this is a bad way! dont brake great OS..
To John,
I am sorry that I phrased that sentence as such. It is still correct but to clarify, when I said causalities I meant the physical laws that govern the physical universe a.k.a physics and all the layers above chemistry and biology.
To Euginia and others posters,
I do not make any claims to all knowledge but it seems whenever I or somebody else (e.g. Rain in this particular forum) posts something that is (slightly or way) more substantiative – but still on topic – people mod us down.
I would be interested in Euginia monitoring who mods and on what kind of topics so they can see if it is not the same people as I suspect it is. What they then choose to do with this info. is up to them.
On why I was modded down and relevance of my post – the article is about the real or supposed behaviour of Apple which always then brings up a comaparison to MS. I just wanted to show that this IS “political” both in a IT-industry and universal context.
You cannot escape politics for the reason why you are using (or able to use) the internet right came about as a result of politics, political activity and such.
It’s unfortunate, if i were to post about how Macs are a better value proposition than MS suddenly the forum would jump to 100 posts with the same characters playing their usual roles.
However discuss something that mandates a little more thought from participants as opposed to quoting 1000 websites on products you have never used in production environment concerning Apple or MS (or anybody) then – S I L E N C E.
Its not like I am discussing tabloids, Martha Stuart or such, rather being more realistic about the nature and environment in which technology operates. Many it seems are of the classical stereotype of having tunnel vision and being ignorant of what occurs outside their environment – DESPITE its obvious effects which more times than less is of greater consequence to their future than what they do in their confine.
Its unfortunate. I was hanging out with some friends and one of them mentioned how many Comp. Science students he is at university with often talk about “who is so stupid as to admit that they are a Computer Science major” outside the school. They do not want to be seen as “dorks” and “geeks”.
I will take my friends advice (anthropology graduate) and pick up a copy of “The Programming of the American Mind”.
Wishing All the best.
Peace.
I was hanging out with some friends and one of them mentioned how many Comp. Science students he is at university with often talk about “who is so stupid as to admit that they are a Computer Science major” outside the school. They do not want to be seen as “dorks” and “geeks”.
Most people I know would look at such people with respect, and quite a few women I know would want to marry them.
I’m a mathematician who works with computers a lot, and I know people who would call me a “dork” and a “geek”. But I also know a lot of people who actually find it respectable, and they tend to be pretty classy people.
Maybe those guys are just looking for friends in the wrong crowd.
Thanks! I’ll check back from time to time.
“I’ve never heard anyone (from either side of the aisle) complain about this ‘feature’ from Microsoft.”
This was _big_ news when it was announced and there were complaints from both sides of the aisle.
The only reason I know these features exist is because of all the arguments against it.
“Not all companies tries to “rule the world”.”
Although it’s a loaded phrase…by U.S. law, a public company has a fiduciary responsibility to its shareholders to do everything it can to maximize value or “rule the world”.
“Some are just interested in providing people with good products and make some money off it, some are just trying to make a decent living by providing common products or services”
That isn’t Apple’s business model. If it was then it would have to be explicitly stated to their shareholders or litigation would be likely.
“those people and their followers who makes capitalism fail so badly”
Capitalism has flaws but maximizing share value isn’t one of them.
That’s a pretty pessimistic view.
That’s what most idealists say about realistic world views
.
Not all companies tries to “rule the world”. Some are just interested in providing people with good products and make some money off it, some are just trying to make a decent living by providing common products or services.
Maybe there are companies like this out there, but I’ve never seen one (and I doubt *any* such company would ever start in the US). Certainly Apple has demonstrated its ruthlessness many times in the past and shown neither of these two sentiments are driving factors in their business model.
The companies that tries to rule the world are often led by corporate phsycopaths who has lost contact with the real world. It’s a mental illness, not a business strategy.
And it’s those people and their followers who makes capitalism fail so badly.
Capitalism fails so badly because it’s flawed. It’s flawed because it’s implemented by people. Trouble is, it’s the best system we’ve managed to figure out.
Anyway, the point in relation to the subject is that even if this was identical to what MS did (which it is not) people are still justified in applying the “double standard” (if that’s what you choose to call it – I bet you also approach a hooded guy playing with a switch-blade on a street corner at night the same way you approach any of your relatives or friends) because MS has brought about the negative stigma that is attached to them so people will always be wary of their moves until they show themselves to be worthy of anything more than the wolf in wolf’s clothing that they are.
Except Apple behaves just as ‘badly’ as Microsoft, which kind of blows your theory out of the water. It’s just that most people don’t notice because when Apple behaves ‘badly’, the only people that suffer are the Mac users.
Except Apple behaves just as ‘badly’ as Microsoft, which kind of blows your theory out of the water. It’s just that most people don’t notice because when Apple behaves ‘badly’, the only people that suffer are the Mac users.
Yes… and that’s why we’re so loyal. Apple keeps treating like dirt, and being such luddites and such unsophisticated consumers, we keep coming back for more!
Man, I know that dr. smithy is a bright guy, but you sure wouldn’t know it from the comment above. 🙂
Anyway, I enjoy a good debate as much as the next geek, but it really is a moot point until Apple actually ships an OS with this feature. Who really knows if it will be offensive or brilliant… or if it will even appear in the final release.
I’d much rather argue over recent reviews of the new iMac G5… In case you haven’t noticed, almost every reviewer has been blown away by the all-in-one design done right.
Mossberg thinks it’s a nearly flawless personal computer:
http://ptech.wsj.com/ptech.html
It’s just the latest in a long line of Apple products to garner Time magazine’s Gadget of the Week kudos:
http://www.time.com/time/gadget/20040922/
And PC Magazine believes that the new “iMac G5…has given Mac fans yet another reason to stay in the fold. And its unparalleled execution should attract would-be Windows PC buyers, as well.”
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1648840,00.asp
That’s what most idealists say about realistic world views
.
No, that’s why I say about people who take the bad half of the truth and make it the whole truth.
Maybe there are companies like this out there, but I’ve never seen one (and I doubt *any* such company would ever start in the US).
It’s just that. Your view is very US centric. It’s truely the american way to do business.
But you know what? There’s more countries than USA in this world. And the “bigger is better” mentality isn’t in everybodys head. Even though the US has sadly managed to spread that mentality pretty well since “they” started in the 50’s.
However, I’d say that most companies (in per cent) out there aren’t that greedy. It’s only that you never notice those companies.
Trouble is, it’s the best system we’ve managed to figure out.
I respectfully disagree. But I also understand that since you live in the US (if I’m not mistaken?) you haven’t experienced anything else in practice really.
“Yes… and that’s why we’re so loyal. Apple keeps treating like dirt, and being such luddites and such unsophisticated consumers, we keep coming back for more!”
i didnt come back for more. i gave up macs after 19 years of owning them. bought my last one in late 1998 when apple lied about the support the beige g3 would enjoy in os x. apple has since settled out of court on a class action lawsuit over their poor support of macs that were to have feature parity inside os x. they lied.
i grew sick of annual updates of the os that cost $129.
i grew sick of promising free things like iTools then start selling .mac for $99 per year when people got used to using the features.
i grew sick of using iApps that were free, then having that flipped and having to pay $49 to get the latest version.
i grew sick of seeing cheap consumer oriented macs shipping with appleworks free but when you buy a pro mac that costs 2x as much you have to shell out even more for basic word processing capabilities.
and in case you didnt notice, apples market share is now down to 1.6% of the world total. in 1993, just 11 years ago, it was 10%. there is a huge switch campaign going on….but its mac users switching to something else!
you want loyal? go check out the edu market that apple used to control to the tune of about 80%….its now south of 20%.
apples clients have abandoned them faster and in greater numbers than any other platform going.
an over priced and under powered but pretty/cool/neat g5 imac will not reverse this long standing trend.
“Nobody is perfect”. You just fell into the trap that is conveyed by that phrase. Whether it is deliberate (in the sense that you are anti-mac/pro-MS) or maybe just do not have sufficient access to information.
The trap that is reflected by that phrase is that of saying “just because entity X has 1000 instances of mispractices it does not make them worse than entity Y that has 10”. In other words, there is a difference between a company that lives and breathes a particular philosophy and one that may show symptoms of or commit actions that can be tied to that philosophy a couple of times in a lifetime.
This applies to people as well. The words war, murder, kill, demolish, destroy, anhialate (not sure of spelling), etc., can be synonyms depending on the contextual environment of the whatever occurence is at hand, BUT this does not mean an entity that goes to war a couple of times a millenia can be equated with a murderer.
With mentioning specifics, I have a feeling that you are generally referring to some of the various issues that have taken place with regards to Apple in the last 4 or so years. What you have to realise is that for a long time (through the 80s into 90s) Apple was not run like the typical “capitalist” company.
What you had was a bunch of people passionate about what they did with the added advantage of making money – what nice collateral “damage”. Admittedly this was a somewhat Utopian view of the world and we all know how the story closed that chapter. At the brink of bankrupsy Apple settled its case w/MS and got a decent cash infusion.
Since then they have arrived at what some from the East may describe as a “balance” (ying-yang, unity of opposites). They act very much like a company (hence the occurences of actions that may make them seem evil or be equated with MS) forging partnerships, protecting patent portfolio and other IP, etc.
But do not make the mistake of comparing one “born and bread” one way vs. one who may periodically exhibit similar characteristics especially when it can be shown that they are not “business as usual” kind of practices.
One of the bad side effects of the DOJ “handout”… sorry case against MS is that it left alot of people with the general idea of MS having commited what it was accused of in recent times, say last 5 – 10 years.
If you read up on them you will realise that this behaviour is far from new, rather, was standard practice even back in the late 70s early eighties.
Try this. Has some info. as to who is “pure-blood” or not:
http://www.igeek.com/articles/History/VisualBASIC.txt
Also note in the article the sense of what I previously hinted at when I said “utopian”, an almost naive conformance to MS practices. All I can say is that you will not see any of that in today’s Apple.
Yes… and that’s why we’re so loyal. Apple keeps treating like dirt, and being such luddites and such unsophisticated consumers, we keep coming back for more!
That’s because Apple make cool stuff. Hey, I’ve been burned by Apple more than once but I still bought a new iBook only a few months ago.
Anyway, I enjoy a good debate as much as the next geek, but it really is a moot point until Apple actually ships an OS with this feature. Who really knows if it will be offensive or brilliant… or if it will even appear in the final release.
I don’t have a problem with this “feature” at all – I think it’s an excellent idea (with a few provisos – like a discreet UI and a defined API for third parties to easily add their stores to the list). I just made the comment because that’s exactly what I thought – it will be interesting to see if the same people that get angry about Microsoft integrating and “encouraging” their own products get similarly hot under the collar about Apple doing it.
I’d much rather argue over recent reviews of the new iMac G5… In case you haven’t noticed, almost every reviewer has been blown away by the all-in-one design done right.
While I personally prefer the design of the iLamp-style iMac to the new one, my only real complaints about the new iMac are:
a) Price. It should be cheaper, hence an “excellent” value for money proposition instead of “it’s expensive and you really pay for what you get” one.
b) Video card. Dismal for a machine supposedly aimed at the home marke (ie: people will want to play games on it and are going to be bitterly disappointed). Even an upgradable device or a better BTO option would have been acceptable.
c) Should have a wireless keyboard and mouse standard to really emphasise its simple and elegant design.
The industrial design is certainly excellent, but the specifications leave a bit to be desired.
No, that’s why I say about people who take the bad half of the truth and make it the whole truth.
The general purpose of businesses is to make money, otherwise they’re a charity.
Certainly, some play a harder game than others and some might have better customer relations that others, but don’t kid yourself – outside of that family-run-for-generations corner store (and the like) there’s no warm-fuzzies in the business world.
It’s just that. Your view is very US centric. It’s truely the american way to do business.
But you know what? There’s more countries than USA in this world. And the “bigger is better” mentality isn’t in everybodys head. Even though the US has sadly managed to spread that mentality pretty well since “they” started in the 50’s.
America dominates the business world. Personally, I think the world would be a nicer place if they didn’t, but they do. I consider my “view” just a pragmatic assessment of how the world is – because it’s certainly not how I would *like* it to be – but in that it’s “US-centric” it is because the whole business world is “US-centric”.
However, I’d say that most companies (in per cent) out there aren’t that greedy. It’s only that you never notice those companies.
I’ve never dealt or worked with any company outside of very small businesses, usually family run for generations or operating in small, tightly-knit communities that has ever given any impression they have the slightest interest in me past how much money I can make them.
Perhaps as a percentage of sheer number of businesses you might be right, but as a proportion of business *dealings* for the average person, I can’t agree with your assertion.
I respectfully disagree. But I also understand that since you live in the US (if I’m not mistaken?) you haven’t experienced anything else in practice really.
I live in Australia – which is pretty much right in the middle of left-wing-big-government-regulated-socialist-Europe and right-wing-christian-hardcore-capitalist-America – and currently work for a company owned by a multinational based in Denmark, so I can assure you I’ve experienced a lot of non-American business methods “in practice”. I think we’ve got one of the best mixes of capitalist and socialist principles in the world, but I don’t doubt for a second Australian society would have been a lot less prosperous if it weren’t for capitalism. Indeed, I think you’d struggle to find any prosperous and successful society that didn’t have strong capitalist principles in its culture.
Whether it is deliberate (in the sense that you are anti-mac/pro-MS) or maybe just do not have sufficient access to information.
I’m not “anti-Mac” or “pro-MS”. I simply treat – and assess – both equally.
With mentioning specifics, I have a feeling that you are generally referring to some of the various issues that have taken place with regards to Apple in the last 4 or so years.
Actually I was thinking all the way back into the ’80s.
What you have to realise is that for a long time (through the 80s into 90s) Apple was not run like the typical “capitalist” company.
What you had was a bunch of people passionate about what they did with the added advantage of making money – what nice collateral “damage”.
No more (or less) than you did at Microsoft. Microsoft just followed a different product strategy and got a whole lot bigger (and more noticable). Bill’s aim has been to get a computer into every household since he founded Microsoft.
Apple was most certainly run like a typical “capitalist” company throughout the ’80s and ’90s. They made decisions that were unpopular with – and bad for – consumers (eg: killing the Newton, killing the cloners) but were driven by business necessity.
Admittedly this was a somewhat Utopian view of the world and we all know how the story closed that chapter. At the brink of bankrupsy Apple settled its case w/MS and got a decent cash infusion.
Apple has never been near “the brink of bankruptcy”. They’ve had billions in cash in the bank practically forever and while they’ve bled red several times, they’ve never been even *close* to running out of money. Certainly, Apple wasted a lot of resources on ultimately fruitless projects like Pink and Coplan, and particularly with their complex and convoluted product lines in the early to mid 90s, but they’ve always had shitloads of cash to throw around. The paltry “cash infusion” from Microsoft of ~150 million is a drop in the bucket of Apple’s financials. It didn’t bail them out of anything (except maybe their petty cash bill).
Since then they have arrived at what some from the East may describe as a “balance” (ying-yang, unity of opposites). They act very much like a company (hence the occurences of actions that may make them seem evil or be equated with MS) forging partnerships, protecting patent portfolio and other IP, etc.
Apple have always been very aggressive (if not successful) about protecting their “IP”. You might remember hearing about that whole “look & feel” lawsuit from back in the ’80s ? Think yourself lucky they lost, because if Apple had their way they would have been the only company allowed to create and sell the GUI we know today.
Hardly the actions of a warm & fuzzy “utopian” entity, no ?
If you read up on them you will realise that this behaviour is far from new, rather, was standard practice even back in the late 70s early eighties.
If you read up on Apple, you’ll see they’ve been acting just like any other corporation since about the same time.
Try this. Has some info. as to who is “pure-blood” or not:
http://www.igeek.com/articles/History/VisualBASIC.txt
Also note in the article the sense of what I previously hinted at when I said “utopian”, an almost naive conformance to MS practices. All I can say is that you will not see any of that in today’s Apple.
Heh. Do you have any idea who David K Every is ? He’s a well known Mac Zealot. He wouldn’t admit Microsoft were anything but evil if his life depended on it. Quoting Every as if he’s even a remotely unbiased source on Apple and Microsoft is like quoting RMS as an unbiased source on software licensing. He’s been a shameless Apple cheerleader since at *least* the mid ’90s (probably even longer in the BBS scene, but not being able to participate in that back in the day, I wouldn’t know).
Speaking purely from experience: ISP’s loved it when MS included IE with the OS. It saved them a LOT of money producing those damn CD’s, and solved the problem of how to get them into the hands of potential customers without wasting their efforts.
That is an understatement for sure. I was doing ISP tech support back in 1996 and back then, CD ROMs didn’t exist on all machines and CD burners weren’t affordable yet, so we used floppies. Netscape wouldn’t fit on just one floppy, so we had to build an installer to get all the other stuff on there, and being a local ISP, making those disks for every customer was a pain in the ASS!!! Plus, you had to deal with the phone calls when the software didn’t go on right.
So, you can imagine that when Win95 OSR2 came out with IE3, that was like a Godsend for us. Subsequent versions of Windows with the Internet connection wizard made it even easier.
However, I couldn’t even imagine doing tech support now with all the spyware shit that is out there – these kinds of issues didn’t exist back then.
While I personally prefer the design of the iLamp-style iMac to the new one, my only real complaints about the new iMac are:
a) Price. It should be cheaper, hence an “excellent” value for money proposition instead of “it’s expensive and you really pay for what you get” one.
b) Video card. Dismal for a machine supposedly aimed at the home marke (ie: people will want to play games on it and are going to be bitterly disappointed). Even an upgradable device or a better BTO option would have been acceptable.
c) Should have a wireless keyboard and mouse standard to really emphasise its simple and elegant design.
The industrial design is certainly excellent, but the specifications leave a bit to be desired.
I’m glad you didn’t take offense at my little jab earlier. 🙂
a) Honestly, I don’t think the iMac is expensive. From all accounts, the LCD is gorgeous, on all models, and the overall hardware and software combination is first rate. It’s not a computer for geeks, to be sure, but it succeeds brilliantly in its intended market. It’s the perfect home computer for people who want to embrace the digital lifestyle, and who prize elegance and sophistication. (Which is something that .chvlva.adelphia.net doesn’t seem to get).
I’m sure everyone here has seen the Gateway Profile all-in-one, which is… er… UGLY… uses integrated graphics… a slower hard drive, but more RAM.. uses Windows XP Home Edition… and starts at $1499:
http://products.gateway.com/products/GConfig/proddetails.asp?system…
So I disagree that the iMac is pricey… It’s a great deal for what you are getting. Especially when you look at the Gateway Profile. And I make this claim purely based on hardware specs. When you include the iMac’s software bundle, the iMac G5 becomes incredibly useful, and it pleases the eye lin a way that most PC manufacturers just can’t comprehend.
b) I agree somewhat… I wish the iMac had a better graphics card. But most games today will play just fine on the iMac G5… It’s a solid gaming machine, but you’re right… I wish that Apple had made allowances for the games now hitting the market. Still, I think most iMac users are more interested in playing with GarageBand and iMovie (or Final Cut Express) than Doom.
But even more interesting is this little nugget… The iMac G5 may be more upgradeable than most people on this forum have suggested.
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=86812
c) I agree completely. To make the iMac utterly cool, they should have made a wireless keyboard and mouse standard… and allowed people to remove these features on the AppleStore if they want to save a few bucks.
Where to begin? [shakes head]
MS just followed a different product strategy
What strategy? Wanting desktops on everyones desk in the world is not a strategy – its at best a dream (at least back in those days). Nothing wrong with dreams, just that when you say strategy it implies some kind of plan was had, which is ALMOST the total opposite.
Most things that MS eventually sold as part of this “strategy” were not envisioned as being that so how can you claim otherwise. I am not arguing creativity here (different time and place) just that they did not what eventually came about (execution-wise).
Its kind of like I-robot, many people would agree that probably 50% of the stuff you saw there will exist in the 2030s/2040s but ask them what path will lead there society and technology wise they might not be able to give a decent guess. All they know is relative to the technology we have today and the pace of technological progress it is highly likely we will get there.
There is nothing wrong with that except to stand up 30 years from now and give that person credit for having a “strategy” or “vision” leading to that would be misplaced.
That’s how I view the whole BillG scenario – he saw that economies of scale were surely going to increase (thanks to IBM, not MS) as more people were buying computers so he then “set out” to put one on every desktop.
What was the planned (or at least anticipated) featureset was almost zilch – just put a functioning computer on a person’s desk and get them to buy any one of our 5 or 6 applications and Voila!
Now take Apple on the other hand – pursued DTP, created various products that implemented ideas relegated to acadamia or not even tried before – Hypercard/Hypertalk, Objectice-C, WebObjects, OS-level support for scripting applications – all of which would eventually be adopted by MS when it sees fit (ASP.Net only now getting WO features that have won it various technical awards as [to be fair, so is Java w/JSF but we are discussing MS]) over the years.
To reiterate, I am not arguing the whole innovation and creativity thing – I am meagrely pointing out the difference between those who point in a direction and feel their way towards “some” destination vs. those they actually create the route, “lay” the “infrastructure”/mechanisms and draw a map for those that want to follow.
Too many points to rebut – will try tomorrow.
Goodnight to All,
fotn
and in case you didnt notice, apples market share is now down to 1.6% of the world total. in 1993, just 11 years ago, it was 10%. there is a huge switch campaign going on….but its mac users switching to something else!
you want loyal? go check out the edu market that apple used to control to the tune of about 80%….its now south of 20%.
That’s all true, and everyone here knows it. It’s a bloody shame, too… but Apple was mismanaged throughout the early- to mid-nineties, and that’s the end result. Apple’s marketshare is appallingly low.
But I’m willing to make several predictions, and I’ll come back and make a public apology to you if Apple continues to lose marketshare over the next four quarters.
Because here’s what I think is going to happen. Apple will continue to be profitable. (And contrary to popular opinion, Apple would still be profitable even if it didn’t have $5 billion in the bank earning interest).
Apple’s share of the education market place is going to increase dramatically over the coming year. It won’t reach the lofty heights that Apple enjoyed in the 1990s, but it will be significant.
iPods sales will continue to amaze, and Apple (with HP) will soon be selling 1,000,000 iPods (and minis) a month, if not more. They will continue to dominate the market.
Tiger will knock everybody’s socks off, boasting features that Longshot won’t have until 2008.
Apple’s marketshare will almost double over the next two years. True, going from 2 to 4 per cent won’t set the world on fire, but it will allow Apple to build on its successes, and put more money into R&D, so more insanely-great products will follow. Apple will be on a roll.
In the next ranking of Supercomputers, Apple Xserves will garner two of the top 5 places, with Apple clusters offering more bang for the buck than any other supercomputer on the list.
Apple’s Xserve sales will increase significantly every quarter, over the next two years (with significance meaning more than 12.5 per cent increase per quarter).
Over the next two years, Apple’s sales figures will increase dramatically. In 2003, they had about $7 billion in sales (off the top of my head, I could be wrong). I’ll bet it will be more than $9 billion in 2004. And that it will approach $12-$14 Billion in 2005.
Apple will continue to sell products like the new Cinema Displays, Airport Express, iPod (and iPod accessories), and the iTunes Music Store that will be purchased by both Mac and Windows users. (And that’s why Apple will become a much bigger company over the next few years, and why they’ll continue to make money).
Sometime next year, Apple laptops will switch to the G5, and they’ll fly off the shelves. Apple will probably be the #2 laptop maker, after Dell (honestly, I don’t know where they are now).
And finally, the new iMac G5 is going to sell a million units in its first year, so it will be a huge success. Look for it on all the new television shows this year.
So… Mark my words. I have no insider knowledge; that should be clear! I just believe that Jobs has brought Apple to an amazing place, and that it will start growing and regaining lost marketshare. It’s not a perfect company, by any stretch.
But the best is yet to come.
id say ive never seen so much dreaming but actually its what weve heard out of apple since jobs returned. apples market share and sales declines have happened almost totally on his watch if you would like to go back and research the data.
no one wants apologies….no one is going to run out and invest money on your wild predictions so no one really cares other than for a good laugh
“Apple’s share of the education market place is going to increase dramatically over the coming year. It won’t reach the lofty heights that Apple enjoyed in the 1990s, but it will be significant.”
nope it will keep declining as edu moves more and more to commodity x86 hardware running both windows and linux.
“iPods sales will continue to amaze, and Apple (with HP) will soon be selling 1,000,000 iPods (and minis) a month, if not more. They will continue to dominate the market.”
nope, theyve sold 4 million in several years time. its not about to jump to 1 mil per month. 12.5 million flash card based models sold last year and more and more are into the hard drive base market now. apples sales will start shrinking in ipods. their percentage of the whole is already in decline.
“Tiger will knock everybody’s socks off, boasting features that Longshot won’t have until 2008.”
one longhorn is due out in 2006, not 2008. two, os x has been playing catch up with windows since it was released. take a look at what tiger and tiger server will be adding and you see tons of features already available in windows and windows server….but back to older x and we can just add up fast user switching, encrypted files, voice and video chat, etc etc etc
“Apple’s marketshare will almost double over the next two years. True, going from 2 to 4 per cent won’t set the world on fire, but it will allow Apple to build on its successes, and put more money into R&D, so more insanely-great products will follow. Apple will be on a roll.”
just what steve jobs said a few yrs back. but instead of doubling, it was halved….with all those cute plastic cases in imacs, ibooks, and super cool metal cases in powerbooks and powermacs. the new imac and/or g5 are now to do what the g3/g4 and older “stunning” apple designs couldnt do? not. look for it to be halved again.
“n the next ranking of Supercomputers, Apple Xserves will garner two of the top 5 places, with Apple clusters offering more bang for the buck than any other supercomputer on the list.”
considering 0 are on the top 500 list now. thats asking alot. but who cares, are you in the market for a supercomputer? its all ibm’s doing, not apples.
“Apple’s Xserve sales will increase significantly every quarter, over the next two years (with significance meaning more than 12.5 per cent increase per quarter).”
considering apple powermacs and servers have fallen below apples stated goal of 200k units per quarter over the last two quarters; they are plagues by cpu shortages, they cannot get the speed where they said it would go, and they are now forced to use liquid cooling to keep their overclocked parts from exploding, i find that highly unlikely.
“Over the next two years, Apple’s sales figures will increase dramatically. In 2003, they had about $7 billion in sales (off the top of my head, I could be wrong). I’ll bet it will be more than $9 billion in 2004. And that it will approach $12-$14 Billion in 2005.”
7 billion is about right i believe. definitely wont jump 2 billion in one year. and not a chance it will go as high as 12-14 billion unless they buy some company with large sales that they add to their own.
“Apple will continue to sell products like the new Cinema Displays, Airport Express, iPod (and iPod accessories), and the iTunes Music Store that will be purchased by both Mac and Windows users. (And that’s why Apple will become a much bigger company over the next few years, and why they’ll continue to make money)”
apples accessory sales add little to the bottom line. the ipod not included. the itms has generated about $150 million in sales in 18 months or so. probably has turned zero profit from it. competition is now so fierce that apples share is heading south.
“Sometime next year, Apple laptops will switch to the G5, and they’ll fly off the shelves. Apple will probably be the #2 laptop maker, after Dell (honestly, I don’t know where they are now).”
apples worldwide laptop share will continue to go down just like overall mac numbers.
“And finally, the new iMac G5 is going to sell a million units in its first year, so it will be a huge success. Look for it on all the new television shows this year.”
considering that apple is averaging about 3.2 million macs per year over the last couple of years, getting one third from their bread and butter machine is not doing very well. it means apples numbers are going down if they only sell 1 million imacs in a yrs time.
” I just believe that Jobs has brought Apple to an amazing place”
the amazing place is that apple now has about 1/3 the market share it did when jobs returned. and they have chosen to enter one of the most competitive industries in the world to try to save themselves. home entertainment equipment.(i wont even mention the selling of the music as apples themselves freely admit it makes them no money and history tells us the only people making money on music are the labels themselves). competition for portable digital music players has grown so competitive that apple can only hope to slow the steady decline that awaits them.
i would say you are way off on nearly everything you wrote.
i would say you are way off on nearly everything you wrote.
I know, Seeker… I made so many bold predictions!
And most of my claims will be shown to be accurate, or way out in left field, over the coming 18 months.
I know that you think that I couldn’t be more wrong. So… care to make it interesting? For instance… If I nail something, or come quite close, (ie: say, two mac clusters in the Supercomputer top 10, instead of the top 5) then you’ll have to say only nice things about Apple in any of the Mac threads that appear on OS News in the two weeks following the verification of my predictions. (Or you could remain silent). Maybe Eugenia could adjudicate.
And if I’m shown to be completely out to lunch, for each prediction, I’ll make a post to one of the Mac threads saying… Damn, the Seeker sure is a smart guy!
Quoting directly from the court’s findings of fact:
Heh, the “findings of fact”, a document that was very short on actual facts.
The decision to override the user’s selection of non- Microsoft software as the default browser also directly disinclined Windows 98 consumers to use Navigator as their default browser, and it harmed those Windows 98 consumers who nevertheless used Navigator. In particular, Microsoft exposed those using Navigator on Windows 98 to security and privacy risks that are specific to Internet Explorer and to ActiveX controls.
I’d be interested to know what circumstances this allegedly happened under, because I’ve got a Windows 98 machine here (that we keep around for support a handful of non-NT clients left) and if I install a suitably old version of Navigator (4.08) on it and set it to be the default browser, it always seems to start up when a browser is required. Heck, it even starts up when Outlook Express wants to open a web page.
considering apple powermacs and servers have fallen below apples stated goal of 200k units per quarter over the last two quarters; they are plagues by cpu shortages, they cannot get the speed where they said it would go, and they are now forced to use liquid cooling to keep their overclocked parts from exploding, i find that highly unlikely.
Please stop the bloody crap you spew. No the G5s are not liquid cooled to prevent the thing from blowing up. They are to reduce fan noise.
apples accessory sales add little to the bottom line. the ipod not included. the itms has generated about $150 million in sales in 18 months or so. probably has turned zero profit from it. competition is now so fierce that apples share is heading south.
Unless you are weak in math as your are in other things . Apple’s share price went from $20+ -> $35+ in the last 12months. I hardly call that south.
i would say you are way off on nearly everything you wrote.
Speak for your self.
one longhorn is due out in 2006, not 2008. two, os x has been playing catch up with windows since it was released. take a look at what tiger and tiger server will be adding and you see tons of features already available in windows and windows server….but back to older x and we can just add up fast user switching, encrypted files, voice and video chat, etc etc etc
First, no one knows when longhorn will ship and in what shape. MS has almost taken out every piece of hyped up feature out of longhorn. Even MS doesn’t know when it will ship.
I would say OS X became a a stable, robust and secure computing platform in a mere 3 years. It’s taken MS what 9 years and it’s not even close.
Let’s see, I don’t think any version of windows allows for dynamic encrytion and decryption of home directories. Files level encryption is very different from FileVault.
I would say OS X became a a stable, robust and secure computing platform in a mere 3 years.
NT is already “stable, robust and secure computing platform”. I’ve been using NT since 1996, with only a handful of unexplained system crashes and no security problems whatsoever in that time.
It’s taken MS what 9 years and it’s not even close.
NT has been under development since 1988.
Let’s see, I don’t think any version of windows allows for dynamic encrytion and decryption of home directories. Files level encryption is very different from FileVault.
True enough – encryption of discrete files as a simple file attribute (a la Windows 2000+) is a vastly superior method to Apple’s ugly home-directory-in-a-disk-image hack. It’s more flexible, more robust, more secure and offers better performance.
Windows 2000/XP/2003’s file encryption does everything Apple’s FileVault does, only better, and offers more features besides.
“First, no one knows when longhorn will ship and in what shape. MS has almost taken out every piece of hyped up feature out of longhorn. Even MS doesn’t know when it will ship.”
the press pontificated about longhors ship date for a long time and ms never specifically said. now as the time approaches, ms has flat out said 2006. could be late sure.
but what everyone fails to recognize is that while longhorn is in separate development, ms is preparing to ship windows xp 64 bit extended for the amd 64 and intel 64 platforms (its already out for itanium of course).
so its not as if we have to wait for longhorn to get a pretty massive change to the os.
more importantly, ms isnt going to sell us a beta product and have us pay to develop it for 2 years the way apple did with os x from 10 to 10.2.
“I would say OS X became a a stable, robust and secure computing platform in a mere 3 years. It’s taken MS what 9 years and it’s not even close.”
after failing to get beos apple bought next in 1996 to build their new os upon as their engineers were incapable of creating anything new after riding the old tired mac os pony…rode it from 1984 to 2002 as the default os.
took apple 5 yrs to ship os x from the time they bought next.
took apple 7 yrs to ship os x as the default os after buying next.
those two years were a beta test that apple clients paid for.
if you go back and factor in apples efforts with copland, it took apple 7 years to bring a new os to the table. 9 to make it the new default.
and during that long delay, apples numbers shrank as a percentage of the desktop landscape. on the other hand, windows numbers just keep going up with this long stretch between xp and longhorn (dont forget that since 2001 ms clients have gotten all updates for free as well).
the buying public seems to love xp. the buying public is in no rush to buy longhorn just because it is offered. ms has realized that business wants to keep the same os longer and ms gave back in return, now giving 10 years of support on business class software.
the idea that ms is any bad shape because longhorn will ship in 2006 is without merit. truth is ms still has a large job of upgrading many tens of millions of both home and biz users onto xp.
more importantly, ms isnt going to sell us a beta product and have us pay to develop it for 2 years the way apple did with os x from 10 to 10.2.
Everyone in the IT industry knows the inside joke is that customers are Microsoft’s beta testers for windows. This was since 1995 when 95 was released. Now even Analysts have realised this truth.
http://www.theregister.com/2004/09/21/gartner_security_summit/
All your talk about 7 years and 9 years about MaOS X have no merit. I was counting from when things were released but if you want to play it like that let’s see how windows progresses.
Chicago (win95) was announced in 1992. So that makes it more than 12 years for a desktop windows. NT was first started in 1988 along with IBM as OS/2.
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Windows_NT
So it took MS nearly 17 years of NT development till windows XP and is still beta quality according to IT industry insiders and even analysts.
the buying public seems to love xp. the buying public is in no rush to buy longhorn just because it is offered. ms has realized that business wants to keep the same os longer and ms gave back in return, now giving 10 years of support on business class software.
The buying public only sees XP becuase of MS’ long standing monopoly. However the winds are changing, IE is losing dramatic marlet share to mozilla based browsers. Linux is putting tremendous pressure on Windows on the lowend server front. So much so that customers can threaten MS into pricing deals unthinkable of before. Basically what goes around comes around.
Longhorn will not ship in 2006, atleast not in the shape MS hyped. MS has never shipped and OS on time, Never. Even the 64 bit version of XP is still in Beta and it has been 2-3 years.
Tiger will be 64-bit next years. It has taken MS 3 years to make XP 64-bit.
<em>Windows 2000/XP/2003’s file encryption does everything Apple’s FileVault does, only better, and offers more features besides.</em>
You better not burn your fingers here. Microsoft has a real security histroy. In fact i would not trust it on any server.
“Stuart Okin, chief security officer at Microsoft UK februari 2004, Internet Explorer is now one of the most secure webbrowsers available.”
“I know that you think that I couldn’t be more wrong. So… care to make it interesting? For instance… If I nail something, or come quite close, (ie: say, two mac clusters in the Supercomputer top 10, instead of the top 5) then you’ll have to say only nice things about Apple in any of the Mac threads that appear on OS News in the two weeks following the verification of my predictions. (Or you could remain silent). Maybe Eugenia could adjudicate.
And if I’m shown to be completely out to lunch, for each prediction, I’ll make a post to one of the Mac threads saying… Damn, the Seeker sure is a smart guy!”
well, id say no.
one, i dont need to have my ego stroked by having you say im a smart guy. im not any smarter than the next guy. thanks for the offer though.
two, i dont post things in apple threads to be mean or un-“nice”. i post accurate data mostly a bit of opinion thrown in occasionally. i dont intend to change the way i write but i do find it quite odd that someone would want real world and verifiable stuff removed from apple threads.
i think it best if we just stick with the way things are. some folks will post outlandish things and some will come along and show people otherwise. projections of course are nothing more than guesses and neither of us can know until a later date who is right or wrong. we will however have apples year end sales figures for 2004 before long…total dollars and mac units sold. will be very interesting indeed to see how macs do with constrained g5 supply and they out of stock situation with the imac in the back to school season.
id say apple best hope that ipods keep up the brisk sales…and that their latest price drop due to competition doesnt affect their margins too severely.
NT is already “stable, robust and secure computing platform”. I’ve been using NT since 1996, with only a handful of unexplained system crashes and no security problems whatsoever in that time.
Sorry to break your bubble but NT has been nothing but unstable for a workstation or Server OS. I have seen more than my fair share of irq_not_equal_less kernel crashes on NT. I have seen unplugging a SCSI scanner from NT crash the kernel and it kept crashing every boot after, had to be rebuilt. I have seen a bad mouse blue screen NT on boot.
NT is far from secure interms of the number of Virsuses and exploits being released every other day, week, month. MS even announced that they would stop feature development to make windows secure.
“Microsoft’s record on software security has been heavily criticized in the past, and in January of this year the company announced a new emphasis on trustworthy computing in an effort to clean up its image. This news was soon followed by word that its software developers would stop writing new code while they audited their existing code for security flaws.”
That doesn’t bode well coming from the horses mouth.
Contrary to what others migh think I have used Windows more than Macs and absolutely detest it after having supported it at a technical level while in college and even now for friends.
two, i dont post things in apple threads to be mean or un-“nice”. i post accurate data mostly a bit of opinion thrown in occasionally. i dont intend to change the way i write but i do find it quite odd that someone would want real world and verifiable stuff removed from apple threads.
Is this your bleek attempt at humor? I and others have quashed most of your “supposedly accurate” data/fact and almost all of your opinions time and again.
What anonymous (IP: —.chvlva.adelphia.net) calls “fact”, are mostly his weak and biased interpretation and analysis of facts…
i think it best if we just stick with the way things are. some folks will post outlandish things and some will come along and show people otherwise. projections of course are nothing more than guesses and neither of us can know until a later date who is right or wrong. we will however have apples year end sales figures for 2004 before long…total dollars and mac units sold. will be very interesting indeed to see how macs do with constrained g5 supply and they out of stock situation with the imac in the back to school season.
I agree with one small part of that paragraph… this has been a difficult year for Apple because of supply problems: not enough G5s from IBM to use in both PowerMacs and the new iMac, and not enough hard drives to use in various incarnations of the iPod. But I think IBM is now up-to-speed, so at least one issue can be laid to rest. Not having the iMac G5 ready to go last June was a horrible mistake.
But I am sticking by my prediction. I think Apple will make about $9 billion in gross revenue for 2004… But I am talking about the calendar year, meaning Apple will have tallied that sales figure between Jan 1, 2004 and Dec 31, 2004. Just to clarify.
I think this prediction, along with the growth in marketshare to 4 per cent by the end of 2006, will be the most difficult ones for Apple to fulfill. But I remain confident.
i do not toss out wild things with no supporting information
“I and others have quashed most of your “supposedly accurate” data/fact and almost all of your opinions time and again.”
you have done no such thing. you repeatedly write lies. you do it so much that i have to believe it is intentional.
your true colors come out–
“Contrary to what others migh think I have used Windows more than Macs and absolutely detest it after having supported it at a technical level while in college and even now for friends.”
you lie because you “absolutely detest”. how on earth can someone have such strong feelings about an os or a company? i do not detest apple, nor macs, nor the mac os, nor linux.
you are so filled with some neurotic hatred that you are willing to lie. amazing.
“Everyone in the IT industry knows the inside joke is that customers are Microsoft’s beta testers for windows. This was since 1995 when 95 was released. Now even Analysts have realised this truth.”
pure opinion of a hater and detester. ms doesnt call their oses beta. they give betas away free. they sell finished products that ship as standard oses on production machines that 94% of the world uses for every imaginable task. doesnt sound like beta to me….just your wild hatred being spewed forth. and quoting the register, a tabloid that has clearly shown its anti-ms sentiment, gets you no credibility on a tech site. the register is the worst type of internet reporting going. good to see you at least stick with your lack of objectivity.
“NT was first started in 1988”
sure was. first os shipped 5 years later. and now 11 years after that, the base os powers everything from embedded devices to 128 way data center servers. it runs in 32 and 64 bit mode. longhorn has been in development for a few years and when it is released in 2006, im sure ms and the world will be very happy indeed if the same base will give another 18 years of great expandability. unlike apples oses, nt was ported to sparc, alpha, powerpc, ia-32, ia-64, mips, itanium and amd 64 bit platforms. and today, after all this time, os x has not one fundamentally superior underlying technology over nt. in fact apple has been playing catch up since the mid 90s….and when they couldnt pull it off themselves with copland, they went out and bought an os. sure is a lot easier to make cute little plastic cases than it is to design and engineer something. hell, even the most powerful thing about the ipod, the scrollwheel is bought from another company.
“However the winds are changing, IE is losing dramatic marlet share to mozilla based browsers.”
dramatic market share loss over 3 months of approximately 1%? and is 3 months a trend or blip? if that is dramatic, what do you call apples slide in os share from 10% in 1993 to 1.6% today? a sign from the heavens?
“Linux is putting tremendous pressure on Windows on the lowend server front. So much so that customers can threaten MS into pricing deals unthinkable of before. Basically what goes around comes around.”
windows server 2003 is ms best selling server os ever. has beaten all of their projections. know whats funniest? apple could never put any pressure on ms, and now that linux can, apple fan boys like to trot out what it can do that apple never could. clearly macs arent price competitive.
“Longhorn will not ship in 2006, atleast not in the shape MS hyped.”
ms only publicly disclosed that they would ship longhorn in 2006 just 2 months ago. all the crystal ball prognosticating going on before that was outsiders doing.
“Even the 64 bit version of XP is still in Beta and it has been 2-3 years.”
wrong. its just over a yr in development:
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2003/sep03/09-23Athlon64Be…
the beta is a free download too. wonder why apple doesnt make tiger a free download?
so on an athlon 64 i could have been running in 64 bit for a year for free. free….and get to keep running it free until it is released. remains to be seen if ms will offer it as a free upgrade or not when it goes gold in the first half of 2005.
“Tiger will be 64-bit next years. It has taken MS 3 years to make XP 64-bit.”
a flat out lie. i can run windows xp pro 64 bit extended on an athlon 64 today and have for a yr for free. if on one hand you want to trot out beta versions of mozilla and firefox, i can certainly trot out free beta versions of windows xp pro 64.
and you lie even more when you fail to disclose that ms has shipped fully 64 bit versions of both xp pro and server 2003 for quite some time as well:
xp pro for itanium 64 bit since: march of 2003
windows server 2003 for itanium 64 bit since: march of 2003
so that is 18 months that ms has shipped a fully 64 bit os on both workstations and servers…..apple is still waiting for next year.
nt was ported to sparc, alpha, powerpc, ia-32, ia-64, mips, itanium and amd 64 bit
I don’t believe NT was ever ported to SPARC. the alpha port was killed when 2000 shipped and so was the PPC port.
Windows no only supports x86 and has only supported x86 since NT 5.0/Win 2000. XP is going to add support for 64-bit architectures. Since it hasn’t shipped yet XP only supports x86 32-bit today.
wrong. its just over a yr in development:
Worng again…..
http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/win64.asp
” On May 22, 2001, I attended a technical preview of Microsoft’s 64-bit Windows products at the company’s campus in”
Ms annouced 64-bit Xp in 2001. So for apple unreleased oses count in the development cycle and for MS an OS has to be in beta to be in development. And you call others liars?
a flat out lie. i can run windows xp pro 64 bit extended on an athlon 64 today and have for a yr for free. if on one hand you want to trot out beta versions of mozilla and firefox, i can certainly trot out free beta versions of windows xp pro 64.
I will make this easy for you if Microsoft introduces 64-bit versions of Windows to journalists like Thurrott in 2001. Logic has it that it was in development well before that. So say 2001 -> 2004 is 3 years. Since XP 64-bit is still in beta it is not released yet.
Mozilla is not in Beta. Firefoxs preview release is far more stable and secure than anything windows ships with post release.
os x has not one fundamentally superior underlying technology over nt. in fact apple has been playing catch up since the mid 90s….and when they couldnt pull it off themselves with copland, they went out and bought an os. sure is a lot easier to make cute little plastic cases than it is to design and engineer something. hell, even the most powerful thing about the ipod, the scrollwheel is bought from another company.
Let’s see contrast that to MS. Who bought qdos from Seattle Computer Products and later released it as MSDOS. IE from spyglass. NT was started with IBM and MS hired a DEC engineering team to work on NT, namely David Cutler.
Let’s see they bought hotmail and still can’t make it work reliably. Let’s also not forget that windows was released after MS was working on GUI based Applications for Apple.
i do not toss out wild things with no supporting information
but earlier: they cannot get the speed where they said it would go, and they are now forced to use liquid cooling to keep their overclocked parts from exploding, i find that highly unlikely.
“Windows no only supports x86 and has only supported x86 since NT 5.0/Win 2000. XP is going to add support for 64-bit architectures. Since it hasn’t shipped yet XP only supports x86 32-bit today.”
so yet again you conveniently lie and fail to mention windows xp pro and windows server 2003 running in full 64 bit on itanium for 18 months now. are you dense?
http://www.networkitweek.co.uk/news/1140593
your link to http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/win64.asp for 64 bit back in 2001 was for windows 64 bit for itanium. damn. that has been shipping since march 2003. development of windows xp and server 64 bit extended has been in development just over a year now. back in 2001, neither amd nor intel had formulated their plans for x86 64 bit extensions. are you incapable of distinguishing betweeen xp 64 bit for itanium and xp 64 bit extended for amd and intels x86 extensions?
” On May 22, 2001, I attended a technical preview of Microsoft’s 64-bit Windows products at the company’s campus in Mountain View, California. The location was chosen because of its proximity to Intel and its hardware partners, such as Hewlett-Packard, which have been working on a new 64-bit hardware platform called IA-64 (Intel Architecture 64-bit), which will see its first rendition with the Itanium processor, being released in June, 2001.”
you apple fan boys will try to twist things any way you can. its amazing.
and as for nt on sparc, go check out what Intergraph Corporation did with NT.
and quit lying through your teeth.
(sorry… this goes with my last post…)
If you stretch the truth once, Seeker, it makes everything you say suspect.
Where have you seen proof that Apple is using overclocked parts? IBM’s site? Apple’s site? The tech media? Where? Find me a link. You’ve said you always tell the truth; then please back up this one small fact. (As a published writer, I’m expecting something substantial, and not just a link to a web forum or a blog… in other words, a real, verifiable source).
The dual G5s running in the new PowerMacs are all 90 nm chips fabricated by IBM. The fastest PowerMac, running at 2.5 GHz is NOT liquid-cooled because Apple expects it will burst into flames. In fact, it’s cooler than most Opteron and Intel chips.
The PowerMac IS liquid-cooled so that it will be quiet. Most PCs sound like a Hoover next to a PowerMac for this very reason. PowerMacs are used in recording studios and editing suites where silence is a virtue.
You might try it sometime. A wise man listens twice as much as he speaks. A lesson you haven’t learned yet, I see.
“i do not toss out wild things with no supporting information
but earlier: they cannot get the speed where they said it would go, and they are now forced to use liquid cooling to keep their overclocked parts from exploding, i find that highly unlikely.”
wild or not so wild?
who uses liquid cooling in their desktops? overclockers…..and now apple.
who had g5 towers ship for a year with not a single mhz increase in speed? apple
who had g5 towers ship for a yr with 9 or 10 fans of very high quality and configured to spin up and down as needed to reduce noise? apple
who claimed the the g5 towers were whisper quiet the way they were designed? apple
does adding an elaborate liquid cooling system radically increase production costs and the cost of repair? yes
who has had problems getting speed increases out of the g5 processor? ibm
who in june 2003 wildly claimed that within 12 months (by june 2004) they would have 3ghz g5 cpus? steve jobs.
did he deliver on his promise? no
who ran out of imacs because ibm is having such serious problems with the g5 that they could not supply the cpu in significant enough quantities? apple.
who is now employing overclocking to try to save face while at the same time incurring a huge design and engineering and production expense to incorporate liquid cooling? apple.
who will not write about this because they are a steve jobs acolyte and fanboy? walter mossberg
not wild at all. its almost certainly true when you look at all the facts.
who had a previous model of g5 tower that was maxed out so hard that it had two heatsinks in it the size of shoe boxes? apple
apple is overclocking g5 cpus from ibm and in order to do so their clients are getting machines that cost more because of the dumb design and will not last as long due to the overclocking. they will also be near impossible to work on unless carried into specialized service centers. self repair and upgrading in that case is a thing of the past.
in every way the end user loses….heck even apple loses because they are eating the added cost of this boondoggle of a design.
who has a 1.8ghz g5 crammed into a tiny new imac case and does not deploy liquid cooling to do it? apple
why then does a cpu with 700mhz added require liquid cooling when installed in huge aluminum cases with 9 or 10 very quiet high quality ball bearing fans moving air across two huge heat sinks? it doesnt unless overclocked.
ive heard all of the original g5 towers and they are all quiet. noise is not the reason to employ such a radical cooling design. there is only one reason to do it and it is because the actual cpus are being pushed beyond their normal design parameters and require liquid cooling due to overclocking.
and as for nt on sparc, go check out what Intergraph Corporation did with NT.
Talk of porting doesn’t equal actually having a port. Also NT was never ported to Mips. Microsoft has never released a sparc port of NT or a mips one at that. They killed the alpha and ppc ports long time ago.
so yet again you conveniently lie and fail to mention windows xp pro and windows server 2003 running in full 64 bit on itanium for 18 months now. are you dense?
Show me where I can buy a PC with itanium at a reasonable cost that will out perform an pentium based machine for home use.
What does server 2003 and Xp pro for itanium have to do with tiger?
Tiger is a consumer grade os for Pcs. itanium is not a platform for conusmer grade uses. Stop doing apple’s to orange comparisons.
Be reasonable… oh sorry I forgot who I was talking to
” why then does a cpu with 700mhz added require liquid cooling when installed in huge aluminum cases with 9 or 10 very quiet high quality ball bearing fans moving air across two huge heat sinks? it doesnt unless overclocked.”
This is your opinion. Not a fact.
” ive heard all of the original g5 towers and they are all quiet”
Again, this is your opinion. While my G5 is quiet (the quieter computer I have ever had), it’s still not quiet enough, and I would be happy to have a water cooling system on it (afternoons can be very hot here),
now you will admit but try so slyly to turn it into an unfair comparison:
“so yet again you conveniently lie and fail to mention windows xp pro and windows server 2003 running in full 64 bit on itanium for 18 months now. are you dense?
Show me where I can buy a PC with itanium at a reasonable cost that will out perform an pentium based machine for home use.
What does server 2003 and Xp pro for itanium have to do with tiger?
Tiger is a consumer grade os for Pcs. itanium is not a platform for conusmer grade uses. Stop doing apple’s to orange comparisons.”
last time i checked dozens of mac fan boys on os news have been yapping about how apple is ready for the enterprise. they make xserves do they not? are those for you to put in little suzies room for iphoto sessions?
are g5 powermac towers when outfitted with more than their paltry standard ram, video card, and hard drives and are boosted to reasonable amounts they can cost well over $5000…. are those for little johnny to do oh so fun imovie projects of him at his soccer match?
no, they are professional grade, over priced machines that are NOT fully 64 bit capable while running an os from apple.
i guess thats why there is a news story on here about linux on macs.
so “Tiger is a consumer grade os for Pcs” is wrong….or incomplete at best. tiger and tiger server are oses for laptops, towers, and servers and for consumer and professional use as well.
twist all you want. it dont fly.
and for manik
“This is your opinion. Not a fact.”
well of course it is. apple isnt going to come out and tell its users it is overclocking its products to save face.
but it is a very strong possibility. and once g5 2.5ghz machines ship in any quantity and people can get their hands on them and run some real tests we will then know what games apple is up to.
last time i checked dozens of mac fan boys on os news have been yapping about how apple is ready for the enterprise. they make xserves do they not? are those for you to put in little suzies room for iphoto sessions?
Yes apple is sort of ready for the enterprise. But the point in question here is not wether Apple is ready for the enterprise but if XP pro/Server 64-bit for the itanium is pertinent to this discussion. It is not.
An itanium based system can not be compared with anything Apple ships. Period.
The fact remains MS doesn’t have an OS for the opteron of EM64T based systems which consumers can buy today. Panther supports 8 gigs of memory on G5s. Tiger will develop on that and support 64-bit compeletely.
Tiger is slated for release around the same time as windows xp x64.
well of course it is. apple isnt going to come out and tell its users it is overclocking its products to save face.
but it is a very strong possibility. and once g5 2.5ghz machines ship in any quantity and people can get their hands on them and run some real tests we will then know what games apple is up to.
Speculation and opinion at best. Do you have any data to offer?
“An itanium based system can not be compared with anything Apple ships.”
thats because apple doesnt have a 64 bit os. i know there is no comparison. apple is playing catch up. by the time apple ships a 64 bit os, ms will have had one for at least two years!
and itanium based machines running xp or win2k3 server flat out destroy anything apple makes in performance. its like pro footballers going up against school kids.
“The fact remains MS doesn’t have an OS for the opteron of EM64T based systems which consumers can buy today.”
yes you are right. instead of selling it to me i get to use it for FREE:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/64bit/evaluation/upgrade.mspx
Supported processors: AMD Athlon 64, AMD Opteron, Intel Xeon with Intel EM64T support, Intel Pentium 4 with Intel EM64T support
free to use for: “the pre-release software is time-limited and will expire in 360 days”
long enough to use free and the retail version or free upgrade to gold master will be out before then.
where is apples free beta? does it run well enough to release a public beta? ms has given away the public beta for free via download for a year. if you are on slow 56k you can order the cd for like $5 to cover shipping costs.
now thats what i call service. and since 64 bit extended cpus and an xp 64 bit extended os have been out a yr….i will have been running a 64 bit extended os from ms for nearly 2 years before apple ships tiger.
Seeker…
Once again, you completely and utterly failed in the one simple task that I gave you.
I didn’t ask for an essay. I asked for a footnote. Plain, simple, and to the point. Here it is again: Find me one link from a reliable source that proves that Apple is using overclocked chips, and that Apple is afraid that the highend PowerMacs will burst into flame. You made that claim as fact, so back it up, cowboy.
But no. You do what anyone in your position would do… You throw enough sh#@ against the wall, and hope that some of it sticks. Honestly, I expected better.
In this particular case, you’ve started with a couple of facts, and then you run off on a long, long, inane diatribe, hoping to be persuasive. A few ounces of fact, a ton of conjecture. It’s not a bad act. It probably works on other forums. But everyone here knows that you’re building a house of cards, and that you can’t meet the requirements of my original post. You’re wrong on every conjecture that you make because your underlying thesis is wrong, and better, more reasonable explanations exist.
Reputable journalists with far more credibility than you possess have provided far better explanations as to why this fast PowerMac is liquid-cooled. (Big hint: It’s a characteristic of IBM’s 90 nm chips). And we believe their explanations because, in the end, everything works: the PowerMac G5 2.5 Ghz is very, very quiet for such a speedy computer. It’s fast, bullet proof and efficient. It shows none of the unstable characteristics that would follow if your underlying thesis was correct.
So you are wrong. And many people on this forum will continue to prove you wrong in the months ahead.
I gave you the chance to convince me that you know what you’re talking about regarding one simple debating point. I had an open mind when I laid the challenge before you; I thought you might come through. So many smart people post here. But you’ve failed, and now I will have doubts about everything that you write. I suspect that I will gloss over any posting that bears your signature.
Pity, though, for I love a good debate. Ah, well, others will supply that, I’m sure. That’s all. Recess is over, Seeker.
thats because apple doesnt have a 64 bit os. i know there is no comparison. apple is playing catch up. by the time apple ships a 64 bit os, ms will have had one for at least two years!
Panther already supports 8 GB of memory and 64 bit apps. I would call that a 64-bit OS. I am thinking you know what 64-bit means????
and itanium based machines running xp or win2k3 server flat out destroy anything apple makes in performance. its like pro footballers going up against school kids.
Destroy Apple machines in what application exactly????
For most x86 Apps itanium sucks big time. Windows XP 64-bit on itanium doesn’t support that many apps to begin with.
Looks like HP the strongest proponent of itanium pulled out thier entire workstation line becuase of a piss poor demand for itanium based workstations. Looks like something got destroyed alright. Apple has shipped more powermac G5 in one quarter than itanium based workstations shipped in thier lifetime.
Looks like HP the strongest proponent of itanium pulled out thier entire workstation line becuase of a piss poor demand for itanium based workstations.
My mistake. It wasn’t very obvious where the stashed the itanium based workstations on HPs site. The itanium based ones seem hidden for some reason.
They still sell it. But the fact remains there are no Apps avaiable for the itanium that you can compare to Apple PMG5s
Even from their own competitors mistakes. It’s a bit like hotmail advertising spam-blockers so long as you accept their spam.
Heavy profit is made yearly by ad blocking products, endless site upon site with tips and tricks for blocking out more and more ads on OS after OS… So apple puts adware into their Operating system.
I have the perfect name for this ‘feature’
Clippy Jr.
unless you fail to realize, you are not some magical osnews power that hands out tasks.
people post here based on whatever they want to share.
“But everyone here knows that you’re building a house of cards”
actually only 1.6% of computer buyers still believe in apples house of cards. wanna know why? look at the newest osnews story on the imac g5. 1.8ghz g5 is 50% faster than 1.25ghz g4 in raw clock but it only beats it by 35% in benchmarks. pathetic.
“Reputable journalists with far more credibility than you possess have provided far better explanations as to why this fast PowerMac is liquid-cooled”
like who, dan rather? or that fella from the ny times that made up all the stories? dont be a sheeple and follow the media like they are your guard dog. think for yourself, after all apple tells you to.
” It shows none of the unstable characteristics that would follow if your underlying thesis was correct.”
no one knows that yet. they only started shipping a couple of weeks ago and scant few at that. they have hardly been tested. show us all the websites and reviewers that have put a dual 2.5ghz g5 through its paces….we’ll be waiting here for you to come back with the mounds of data on the vapormachine.
“now I will have doubts about everything that you write. I suspect that I will gloss over any posting that bears your signature.”
information does not sway fanatics. the material i post here is from a long time mac user geared towards informing folks that are not as well informed. mac zealots come out in droves to hide the truth about apple but it does not prevent those that seek accurate information from reading it.
gloss all you like.
spread fud and lies and you will be exposed.
we will start with your wild fantasys about apples current financials and future when they release their 4th quarter and fiscal year 2004 results on october 13
http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=107357&p=irol-calendar
well see how fast you disappear when that approaches.
xserve delays for most of 2004
battery recalls
ibook and powerbook logic board repair program
out of stock on imacs
slow shipping g5s (still show 3-5 weeks before shipping)
no speed increase from the g5s for a yr
slow upgrade cycle for imac
slow shipping on new imacs (site still shows 3-4 weeks before shipping)
over priced and underpowered low end macs for consumers and edu
ipod shortages
doesnt look promising.
yes, we will see, ND.
But you’ll also remember, I referred to sales for the calendar year… Jan 01 to Dec 31, 2004. Not Apple’s fourth quarter.
So you’ll have to wait until then. I suspect that you’ll be the one AWOL.
“Over the next two years, Apple’s sales figures will increase dramatically. In 2003, they had about $7 billion in sales (off the top of my head, I could be wrong). I’ll bet it will be more than $9 billion in 2004. And that it will approach $12-$14 Billion in 2005. ”
those are your exact words….dont go playing games with it now. everyone measures by fiscal year. including apple. the fourth quarter and year end is just a few days away. the report comes out oct 13.
dont be hiding.
what a trip, you are gonna now do apples financials for them on a calendar year. hehe. what they release to their investors, the sec, and the general public isnt good enough.
we will now have a press release on jan 13 from gankaku disclosing apples REAL financial results according to the mighty gankaku!
gankaku for Federal reserve chairman! gankaku will think different and turn all normal accounting practices on their head! go gankaku!
too much. “more than $9 billion in 2004” gonna eat some crow soon for sure.