Apple has quietly cut prices on build-to-order (BTO) components for its new Mac mini. The company is now offering the Bluetooth and AirPort Extreme wireless option for US$99 (was $129), the 1GB DDR333 SDRAM upgrade for $325 (was $475), and the 80GB ultra ATA hard drive upgrade for $50 (was $80). Apple is also now listing an 8x SuperDrive option instead of the previous 4x model for the same $100 cost. Elsewhere, a Mac user reviews the iPod Shuffle ($149) vs the Sandisk MP3 player ($138, $118 with rebate), both with 1 GB of Flash memory and similar pricing but with different feature-set.
Apple Drops BTO Mac Mini Prices; iPod Shuffle Vs SanDisk Player
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Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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well done!
I am still undecided over iPod Shuffle or iPod 20gigs.
Apple is gonna make a killing with the Mini.
Unfortunately Apple didn’t cut the prices in the Germany, yet 🙁
I’m sure this is in response to community pressure. The people who say there is not a low cost mac now have one. Now they say that apple is charging too much for the upgrades, which they obviously were. I’m sure Kevin Rose cracking open a macmini on The Screen Savers with a putty knife and telling everyone they could upgrade themselves for cheaper sealed the deal.
Apple needs to remember the proper order, first get your product to saturate the market, then you charge way too much. Not the other way around.
You still can buy a 1GB ddr 333 mhz dimm for under 100 dollars; charging 300 + still is no deal.
Very cool indead….
“You still can buy a 1GB ddr 333 mhz dimm for under 100 dollars; charging 300 + still is no deal.”
where, where, where?
As a matter of fact, pretty much all the portable mp3 players suck to me. I’m looking for one (esp a flash player) that has the following two features:
1. A bookmark feature so you can mark your place in an mp3 (say an audiobook), switch to ANOTHER mp3, and then switch BACK to the original file exactly where you left off. This is such an OBVIOUS braindead feature to add, it amazes me that the only player I know for sure that has this is a Virgin Pulse 256MB flash player, and that one has been discontinued.
2. A hold/lock mode that disables the previous/next track functions, but still allows you to rewind/fast forward through whatever file you happen to be playing. I don’t know how many times I’ve been listening to a radio show, try to fast forward through a commercial, and ended up accidentally skipping to the next track GRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!
So I say piss on the FM tuner and voice recorder – if I could have JUST THESE TWO FEATURES, I’d be willing to pay $500 for a 256MB model.
glad to see it
personally, I am waiting for Tiger, and ordering an iPod 20gb first.
I’m very glad I decided to wait a little while before I purchase one! Good job, Apple!
The lowest I can find on newegg is more than $150:
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?submit=property&catalog=1…
I think everyone agrees they’re pretty reputable.
I like the Shuffle, but I think it makes a better second Mp3 player. I’ll use it for all the situations where I don’t need a screen or need more portability than my regular iPod provides.
The SanDisk player looks like a fine unit, lots of nice features, but the thing it is missing is AAC playback. I buy all my new albums on iTMS. This is where Apple has you locked in. I don’t mind the lock in though, the shuffle is sleek and looks super cool. The review points out he’s listening to Motley Crew when he wants to relax, but thats just not the market of the shuffle. If you want to play certain songs get a mini or original iPod, they have the fabulous interface we all know and love. The shuffle is for when you need ultra portability and would be doing to much to bother with an interface anyway.
Apple’s computers are somewhat picky about having high quality ram, so no-name generic is an iffy proposition.
Apple Education Pricing: $225
Memory To Go: $192 (+shipping)
Crucial.com: $226 (+shipping)
1-800-4-Memory: $185 (+shipping)
The Memory Place: $196 (+shipping)
(Ramseeker says $159, but that link is dated.)
http://www.dvcentury.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_…
Here is some
I use pricewatch, sometimes you have to wade through a bunch of junk, but deals are there.
“You still can buy a 1GB ddr 333 mhz dimm for under 100 dollars”
I call your bluff (or exaggeration), please back that up, I’d love to find the 1GB DDR 333Mhz for under a hundo, but I don’t think prices for these single chips have fallen that far (yet!)
Well, even before one replies, I stand corrected, pricewatch reveals that you can indeed get Generic 1GB 2100 Dimms for $80…
Well, even before one replies, I stand corrected, pricewatch reveals that you can indeed get Generic 1GB 2100 Dimms for $80…
That’s all well and good but is it going to work in the Mac Mini? As someone previously stated, Apple is finicky when it comes to RAM.
< http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=300572 >
If the RAM fails to meet any of the minimum specs listed above the system will ignore it. Considering there’s only one RAM slot, make sure your RAM is compatible before you buy at such great $deals$.
@birdFEEDER:
PC2100 = 266MHz DDR. Mac Mini uses 333MHz memory (PC2700).
…price? Mine isn’t scheduled to ship until Feb 15th. even tho’ I ordered a week before they were shipping. :/
“PC2100 = 266MHz DDR. Mac Mini uses 333MHz memory (PC2700).”
Ah, so true, my mind is apparently mush today. Though I agree with xnetzero, I would never buy Generic memory…
Can’t remember what they exactly cost originally, but in the Irish store (which has the highest VAT of the Euro-12), the HDD upgrade is now E50, and the Superdrive 8X is at E100.The RAM is E430, which might be down a bit, but not as much as the US. The other gear is still up at original prices.
As always, we get screwed a little more. Despite Apple having a fab here….
try out macsolutions.com… they sell memory for model specific Macs and I have had really good luck with buying from them in the past
Plus, they have really descent memory deals
I don’t mean to sound ungrateful, but if I had just bought a Mac mini I’d be a bit peeved right now. I know that companies regularly price their products high so they can make more money on first adopters, but Apple only waited 2 weeks to start dropping prices. That smacks of price gouging.* OK, I’m done ranting.
I’m still going to buy a Mac mini. Really I am. I’ve got the money set aside for it already, but I have decided to wait for Tiger to be announced so I can hopefully get it for the upgrade price instead of full price.
* Actually it sounds more like they had some inventory problems, like they needed to get rid of a bunch of older-model Superdrives.
And a few photos:
http://pcnmac.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=120
The SanDisk is a better buy. I listen to FM radio quite a lot and need a display. Otherwise with all those songs… you’ll go mad looking for that particular one. Although, the Apple 512MB is priced at $99 but the SanDisk is priced at $149. Where are people finding it for less than $99?
The SanDisk 1 GB is priced $138, or $118 with rebate, cheaper than the 1 GB Apple at $149.
The 512 version of SanDisk is $92, again cheaper than the 512 MBs version of iShuffle.
I agree, the SanDisk is a much better deal overall. Not only cheaper, but way too many features.
“I agree, the SanDisk is a much better deal overall. Not only cheaper, but way too many features.
”
Does SanDisk have Autofill that automatically fills itself with a selection of music every time you connect it your computer? Can it do smart Playlists? Does SanDisk automatically downsample your music that’s recorded in Apple Lossless or WAV on your main system to a lower quality, compressed file format so you can fit a decent amount of music, like the Shuffle does, all automatically, without having to maintin a high-quality copy and a low-quality copy?
Again, people are overlooking the software/user experience issue when comparing an Apple product to something else.
weird.
I once thought that not having a LCD display on an MP3 player was bad. But then I don’t remember needing it on my old discman that could play MP3s (it was always on Random too
.
Here’s something cool that Apple did with the iPod Shuffle, you can wear iPod shuffle with the included lanyard. It just makes sense.
>Does SanDisk have….
These are iTunes-specific needs. Not everyone uses iTunes, in fact most people don’t. And I surely don’t need them either.
“These are iTunes-specific needs. Not everyone uses iTunes, in fact most people don’t. And I surely don’t need them either.”
Uhhh, I think the fact that iTunes owns 90% of the online music business and iPod owns 65% of the entire music player market lays waste to your claim that “most” people don’t need these kind of iTunes features. Sure, if you personally don’t need it, that’s fine. But don’t claim for the millions of iTunes users out there (both Mac and Windows) that they “don’t need” features they are obviously using.
In fact, one could argue very strongly that the main reason the iPod WAS so successful was because of iTunes. It’s having software that actually works elegantly with your hardware that companies like Creative, Rio, and iRiver have not figured out.
I purchased a mini through the Apple Education store last week and the prices were already discounted by the stated amount plus the educational discount. I’m wondering how recent these price discounts are and whether educational customers already had the discounts.
Any early mini owners out there actually pay the higher prices?
Looked at both devices for work and the Scandisk was a better deal. Apple is trying, however I am dislike anything that is propierty. This also includes PC’s as well. I want my music “or any kind of hardwardware” the way “I” want it.
Lastly I thought the Ipod was a neat concetpt, I was not impressed with the Ipod’s being more fragile than it should be. Something that was on my mind when deciding on my Scandisk purchase.
Apple is reinventing itself as it is trying to be a multimedia company, which I have to give them much credit for doing so, but in my mind they got to have a more durable product to win move more converts.
In fact, one could argue very strongly that the main reason the iPod WAS so successful was because of iTunes. It’s having software that actually works elegantly with your hardware that companies like Creative, Rio, and iRiver have not figured out.
Something that works elegantly with your hardware – if you plug the SanDisk in, it’s instantly recognized as a removable drive, so you can use whatever software you want, not just iTunes. How much more elegant can you get than that? Hell, I don’t even need drivers, so I can plug it into any PC with a USB connection, probably works on Linux too. I dunno if I’d want any software program compressing tunes as it transfers – seems to me that would slow down the transfer rate.
I bought at full price. I’m not too bitter, that’s what I get for being bleeding edge (well, not bleeding edge but the first one on the block with it). I’m not an Apple apologist by any means, but I figure over the long run the cost difference isn’t huge. I think I would have rather bought the slower computer with the larger hard drive if I could go back in time but hindsight is always 20/20.
Overall I’m not upset. As my grandfather always said, if the product is good the price is soon forgotten. I’m really enjoying the mini so I don’t feel it’s such a biggie.
Hasn’t the 80 GB hard drive option always been $50?? I checked my blog and I commented about the 80 GB “upgrade” being a good deal, that was on Jan 11! So it’s been $50 for a while now.
But it’s definitely nice to see them drop the price of airport+bluetooth. If you’re getting airport you might as well toss in the extra $20 and get bluetooth as well! Now that they’ve lowered the price on the combo, I might just add them when I order my mini.
I’m also glad to see they’ve dropped the price on the 1 GB memory option. Although it’s still rather expensive when compared with prices from places like Crucial. ($226.99 free shipping)
iTunes ownes 90% of the market. True. iPob has 65%+ of the hardware. True. But what if you are like “most” people who rip their existing CDs to .mp3? This diminishes both the effect of the iPod and Apple’s AAC format quite a bit. You don’t need their lock-in. You don’t need iTunes. You just need a cheap and effective player that you can drag and drop files to and play. In effect, you don’t need Apple’s feature set. The quiet market is there for people who want to control their music.
Now that even Apple has a low-end machine, it’s going to be a lot cheaper to get a pc that a few years ago would cost an arm and a leg for just about the same price as the mini, or maybe even less. I like competition YEAH!
The mini has a DVI port, right? Is there a DVI-VGA connector? Does it work fine? I just bought a 17″ LCD and it has the VGA connector, but I do think I’ll want a mini sometime soon..
> Is there a DVI-VGA connector? Does it work fine?
Yes.
Or maybe because the PC competition competing at the low end was already accepting margins less than 1%, it is likely that Apple will continue the trend of offering less expensive hardware than PC competion when it is compared with equally equipped PCs (In both hardware, software and operating system.
Actually, check your orders. Apple took off about $30 from mine.
Good thing I got my Mini without the features that they dropped the prices on
@Jason V: Yes, it comes with a DVI-VGA adapter. For those of you that have a mini, make sure you screw it in tightly (or at all). It fits snug against the back of the Mac, and at first I didnt realize the little ribs on the sides of the adapter were actually thumb-wheels for the mounting screws. I thought they were buttons for some kind of grip mechanism
I could have spared myself the fright of my Mini going into what I thought was monitor power-save mode and not turning back on. It turns out the adapter had worked itself free just enough to lose signal.
Whew.
“Something that works elegantly with your hardware – if you plug the SanDisk in, it’s instantly recognized as a removable drive, so you can use whatever software you want, not just iTunes. How much more elegant can you get than that?”
Shuffle can do this too. But you seem to have left out the whole music thing. How do I get music onto that SanDisk? Do I manually drag-and-drop MP3 files from my carefully maintained file-based organization system? Does it work seemlessly with WMP? Or whatever player I prefer to use?
People buy iPods because not because they expect iPod to work with Media Player or Napster, but because it works seemlesssly with iTunes – and with Shuffle, you don’t even have to worry about managing music on the player at all as a default. Every other player on the market makes you jump through various hoops to manage your music on the player (even if that means manual drag-and-drop copying of music files).
3 comments.
Kenny Martens@Ungrateful
if you call Apple about the upgrades you paid full price for, I believe they are giving refunds, (as they do for their other products when there is a price drop within 2 weeks of your purchase)
(BTW I believe Apple also price matches some itmes for sale in it’s stores against other stores.)
just call or go to the apple store to find out, don’t be shy and don’t assume you will be shafted before trying.
eXtra heavy@RE:NewType
What the hell are you talking about???
since when is iTunes attached to AAC format.
Just for the record, the iTunes Music Store and iTunes the application are not the same thing.
the latter is a part of the former.
I have a 200GB drive with 1.5 years of MP3’s which play on iTunes.
no AAC’s.
I don’t have the music store function turned on, I don’t use the music store references etc.
Almost all of the mp3’s where created by myself using iTunes and converting my CD colletion.
furthermore I still buy CD’s and convert them myslef instead of dealing with AAC.
you DO NOT have to use AAC to use iTunes.
One more thing.
AAC is not a CLOSED format in any way; it is the audio extension of MPG4, which is an ACTUAL approved STANDARD, unlike a market standard such as WMA.
In fact AAC is an extension of MP3 which has the same if not more patent restrictions than AAC.
What is a closed format and has nothing to do with AAC (wtf people keep it straight) is “FAIRPLAY” DRM, which also happens not to be an Apple technology but one exclusivley licensed to Apple.
“FairPlay” DRM could be made to work with any other sound format available if Apple changed it’s license agreement with Veridisc (who does not admit this) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FairPlay).
Furthermore Dumb A, my iPod plays ALL of my music perfectly well, and although most of my MP3’s are made with itunes, when I first started converting my CD library, which was BEFORE itunes, I used a number of other apps to make them. (including Audion, SoundJam, and small freeware apps like soundamps.)
these still work just fine.
GRRRRR.
Stop bitching about how you can’t play the really closed WMA format (which incidentally is really proprietary, just like all other MS file formats (.doc, .xls, .ppt). or even the ability to play OGG, which is really great, but sufffers from a complete lack of market penetration.
“iTunes ownes 90% of the market. True. iPob has 65%+ of the hardware. True. But what if you are like “most” people who rip their existing CDs to .mp3?”
The answer is, simply, these people don’t buy digital music players. They certainly haven’t, if iPod has 65% of the hardware market.
So it’s obviously true there are a lot more WinAMP or Media Player users out there, but the fact is, the vast majority of them don’t use digital music players. It’s the only way iPod can have 65% (and increasing) of the hardware market.
So making the argument that these non-owners “care” about lock-in or proprietary or whatnot is irrelevant, since they are buying neither Apple nor non-Apple solutions.
Basically, it’s like Creative arguing that their players are so much superior to the iPod, but yet, for some reason, very few people buy Creative players. Consumers don’t care about lock-in, mostly because they neither care nor understand the technical issue involved, but they do care very much about experience and ease of use.
Apple does not ship a multi button mouse so that developers have to make all the functions of their applications accessible via a single button mouse action.
Not only is this a cop-out, it’s a load of bollocks.
most people do not use the right mouse button (if you ever worked office support you would know this as well) so if apple shipped a multi button mouse with their systems developers would know that users had another mouse button to work with and would begin putting commands that can only be reached via the right button into their programs…. that is bad design.
It’s extremely rare to find applications with commands *only* on context menus, even in the Windows world where context menus have been around for ~10 years now and developers’ lack of attention to the platform’s UI guidelines are legendary.
It’s somewhat common on Linux but, well, that’s just Linux for you
.
I don’t want Apple to ship every Mac with a multibutton mouse – the *real* reason this is done (so novices don’t get confused between left and right clicks) is reasonable justification. All I want is a multibutton *option*.
the best thing I think you might expect from apple is for a no mouse option because that could be used by people who have a mac mouse already as well as those who do not want the mac mouse at all.
Still not much help for laptops, is it ?
Here’s a real argument. Open the Program Files folder in Windows for the first time. You’re going to read some goop about the fact that these files shouldn’t be tampered with and are you really sure you want to see them?
No, I open folders because I think it’s a crime for Microsoft to go through all the trouble of putting them there and then not to use them. Of course I want to open a folder and see its contents. What’s the next step, the “pretty please with a cherry on top” button?
Do you prefer the method Apple uses in OS X, where whole swathes of system files and directories are simply hidden from view in the GUI altogether with no indication they even exist ?
Just askin’, because usually when Microsoft hide stuff away they get blasted for ‘taking over my computer’ and similar rubbish.
Search for a file. You have to read the screen to find out all the gazillion options you can try out.
No, you don’t. All you have to do is type in part of the filename into the first text box and hit “Search”.
I just want to enter what I’m looking for. What Windows does with that I care not one wet slap about.
And then that dog. In the Pro version. A dog in a search functionality?! I need to be entertained when I’m looking for a file? [yes, I know you can turn it off, the point is it should not be there in the first place].
You’d be surprised how many people – particularly novices – like that dog. Many of them like the Office Assistants as well (which is the same technology as the dog).
Expose: snap, now you see all your windows, snap, now you don’t [yes, it gets choppy if you have 50 windows open – sweet spot for me seems to be at 30 odd windows]. I find myself hitting those three function keys all the time. It’s there when I need it, and it’s only there when I need it.
It works a _lot_ better if you bind it to a mouse button.
Ack. Sorry, folks, wrong tab.
Wow, the new Superdrives right to DVD +R/+RW and -RW on top of -R now. Very nice, I wonder when they will have those in the Powerbooks also. I love my 12 inch PB, but it would be real nice to be able to write to rewritable DVD’s also.
How do I get music onto that SanDisk? Do I manually drag-and-drop MP3 files from my carefully maintained file-based organization system?
I don’t have a flash-based/removable drive player myself but if I did, I could manage my music directly from my file manager (Directory Opus’s flat-file view owns ass. Just a couple of mouse clicks and I could have a split-screen view with my mp3 folder on top and the flash player on bottom. Unless you had iTunes just randomly transferring stuff to your player, you could never do it that fast.
As for other people, I dunno how they’d do it .. there’s an infinite number of apps and possibilities you could use, many of them more capable than iTunes.
but because it works seemlesssly with iTunes – and with Shuffle, you don’t even have to worry about managing music on the player at all as a default.
Yeah, that’s what I need, some app copying a bunch of shit to player by default. Where do I sign up?
Every other player on the market makes you jump through various hoops to manage your music on the player (even if that means manual drag-and-drop copying of music files).
Really? You should have a look at these guys:
http://www.redchairsoftware.com
THey’ve even got software for iPod, check it out vs iTunes:
http://www.redchairsoftware.com/anapod/ctable.php
If I had an iPod, that’s what I would use.
As for AAC, if this is an open format, why are unencrypted AAC files not supported on other portable devices? The alst thing I want to do is encode my music as AAC, buy an iPod, have it die in 2-3 years, and then have to either buy another iPod or re-encode all my music again.
What the hell am I talking about? Freedom.
When I say iTunes, I meant the music store. My omission.
Can you purchase an MP3 from iTunes Music Store. Nope. Is Fairplay as unfair to the consumer as WMA? Without a doubt. That alone makes iTunes a bad choice for the consumer. No user concerned with their rights should purchase or use software that locks them into a format which is the goal of iTunes, Napster et al.
It isn’t always about ease of use. It shouldn’t be. It is about the freedom to choose and not get locked in.
Consider using a music manager that doesn’t support proprietary formats. It is good for the end user and is good for software choice.
Of course, the uneducated consumer wants the hip thing and the iPod is that. That doesn’t make it the best is all.
Darius, Darius, Darius…
“Something that works elegantly with your hardware – if you plug the SanDisk in, it’s instantly recognized as a removable drive, so you can use whatever software you want, not just iTunes.”
Please, tell us how elegant and how easy it is to use the SanDisk is. Does it automatically fire up your jukebox of choice and magically select songs to be loaded? I doubt it. You are the biggest Schween ever, Mr. Daruis!
“As for AAC, if this is an open format, why are unencrypted AAC files not supported on other portable devices?”
Because those devices don’t support Apple’s DRM. It has nothing to do with AAC.
“The alst thing I want to do is encode my music as AAC, buy an iPod, have it die in 2-3 years, and then have to either buy another iPod or re-encode all my music again. “
Encoding your CDs in AAC doesn not mean that they include DRM in them. Somtimes I don’t know if you people on this site are that retarded or if you are working THAT hard to integrate elements of FUD into your posts.
AAC is just a codec. A FANTASTIC codec at that. Encoding your music in AAC be it from another means or from iTunes does not mean that it will also incorporate Apple’s DRM into it.
> Microsoft hide stuff away they get blasted for
> ‘taking over my
Windows started as a shell over DOS. And windows installation has always required a knowledge of the file system. So there’s a certain expectation of what should be available. When that changes people don’t like it, even if it might be better.
Download Tinkertool and every hidden file/directory can shown and hidden at will
I’ve been burning DVD+Rs on my powerbook for 6 months now – Apple used to have DVD+R listed on the specs on the website, but they seem to have removed it. The uj-825 drive (in the powerbooks and iMac G5) supports +R and +RW burning.
“Encoding your CDs in AAC doesn not mean that they include DRM in them. Somtimes I don’t know if you people on this site are that retarded or if you are working THAT hard to integrate elements of FUD into your posts.”
I second this. No matter how many times it’s pointed out that iTunes can encode VBR MP3s from 32 kbps up to 320 kbps, does WAV, does AIFF, does Apple Lossless as well as AAC, you inevitably get a post that implies that the only thing iTunes supports is DRM’d AAC.
Let me ask if Windows Media Player – in all its glory – can encode MP3 of any bit rate, much less 320 kbps VBR, for free like iTunes can.
“As a matter of fact, pretty much all the portable mp3 players suck to me. I’m looking for one (esp a flash player) that has the following two features:
1. A bookmark feature so you can mark your place in an mp3 (say an audiobook), switch to ANOTHER mp3, and then switch BACK to the original file exactly where you left off. This is such an OBVIOUS braindead feature to add, it amazes me that the only player I know for sure that has this is a Virgin Pulse 256MB flash player, and that one has been discontinued.
2. A hold/lock mode that disables the previous/next track functions, but still allows you to rewind/fast forward through whatever file you happen to be playing. I don’t know how many times I’ve been listening to a radio show, try to fast forward through a commercial, and ended up accidentally skipping to the next track GRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!
So I say piss on the FM tuner and voice recorder – if I could have JUST THESE TWO FEATURES, I’d be willing to pay $500 for a 256MB model.”
iPods have that first feature with audio books in audible format.
“Something that works elegantly with your hardware – if you plug the SanDisk in, it’s instantly recognized as a removable drive, so you can use whatever software you want, not just iTunes. How much more elegant can you get than that? Hell, I don’t even need drivers, so I can plug it into any PC with a USB connection, probably works on Linux too.”
You aren’t describing something working elegantly, you are describing something working. Just working.
“iTunes ownes 90% of the market. True. iPob has 65%+ of the hardware. True. But what if you are like “most” people who rip their existing CDs to .mp3? This diminishes both the effect of the iPod and Apple’s AAC format quite a bit. You don’t need their lock-in. You don’t need iTunes. You just need a cheap and effective player that you can drag and drop files to and play. In effect, you don’t need Apple’s feature set. The quiet market is there for people who want to control their music.”
Well if iPods have 65% of the market, then ‘most people’ are using it, so how can most people rip CDs to mp3s and use them on something other than an iPod? That would even be a great argument if iPod/iTunes kept you from using mp3s. But it doesn’t.
“I used a number of other apps to make them. (including Audion, SoundJam, and small freeware apps like soundamps.) these still work just fine.”
Good point. Side note – SoundJam is the app Apple turned into iTunes.
“Stop bitching about how you can’t play the really closed WMA format (which incidentally is really proprietary, just like all other MS file formats (.doc, .xls, .ppt). or even the ability to play OGG, which is really great, but sufffers from a complete lack of market penetration.”
Another side note – iTunes can convert WMA. I have a feeling Apple probably doesn’t support it because they don’t want to pay licensing fees to MS.
drsmithy – the mouse thing is getting really boring. Apple ships a 1 button mouse so that it’s the lowest common denominator for UI designers to work with. Offering an option of a 2nd button defeats the purpose. End of story. Do you think other companies starting shipping 2 button mice by default because of it’s added features? Of course not. They did it because Apple patented the single button mouse. Xerox’s GUI required 5 buttons.
“Do you prefer the method Apple uses in OS X, where whole swathes of system files and directories are simply hidden from view in the GUI altogether with no indication they even exist ?
Just askin’, because usually when Microsoft hide stuff away they get blasted for ‘taking over my computer’ and similar rubbish.”
It’s not about hiding things, it’s about what’s hidden. Windows telling you not to use the folder containing your programs is not the same as Apple hiding things that will screw up your whole system. I do think there should be an option is Sys Prefs to turn that hiding off though (it’s just a basic command).
” It works a _lot_ better if you bind it to a mouse button.”
Agreed.
”
I don’t have a flash-based/removable drive player myself but if I did, I could manage my music directly from my file manager (Directory Opus’s flat-file view owns ass. Just a couple of mouse clicks and I could have a split-screen view with my mp3 folder on top and the flash player on bottom. Unless you had iTunes just randomly transferring stuff to your player, you could never do it that fast.
As for other people, I dunno how they’d do it .. there’s an infinite number of apps and possibilities you could use, many of them more capable than iTunes”
iPods store music in hidden folders. Just get a utility that turns hiding off if you want to do that.
” Yeah, that’s what I need, some app copying a bunch of shit to player by default. Where do I sign up?”
First off, it’s an option. Second, it’s your music, and if you consider your music collection to be ‘shit’, why are you even interested in portable players?
” Really? You should have a look at these guys:
http://www.redchairsoftware.com
THey’ve even got software for iPod, check it out vs iTunes:
http://www.redchairsoftware.com/anapod/ctable.php
If I had an iPod, that’s what I would use.”
But what happened to the argument that iPods locked you into iTunes?
“As for AAC, if this is an open format, why are unencrypted AAC files not supported on other portable devices? The alst thing I want to do is encode my music as AAC, buy an iPod, have it die in 2-3 years, and then have to either buy another iPod or re-encode all my music again.”
So use mp3. No one is forcing you to use AAC. BTW, AAC is the audio layer of mp4s, which are also the basis of the upcoming DVD standard.
“Can you purchase an MP3 from iTunes Music Store. Nope. Is Fairplay as unfair to the consumer as WMA? Without a doubt. That alone makes iTunes a bad choice for the consumer. No user concerned with their rights should purchase or use software that locks them into a format which is the goal of iTunes, Napster et al.”
No major label would ever agree to an mp3 store. It’s not possible for anyone to pull that off. You’re asking the impossible.
“It isn’t always about ease of use. It shouldn’t be. It is about the freedom to choose and not get locked in.”
Who’s stopping you from buying CDs and ripping them?
“Consider using a music manager that doesn’t support proprietary formats. It is good for the end user and is good for software choice.”
But wouldn’t allow you to buy music online. Big missing feature there for people who don’t care about DRM so long as it doesn’t impede on their regular use. Which most DRMs don’t.
“Of course, the uneducated consumer wants the hip thing and the iPod is that. That doesn’t make it the best is all.”
Kind of like how a music management app without an online store is the best, right?
Darius wrote:
” Yeah, that’s what I need, some app copying a bunch of shit to player by default. Where do I sign up?”
PantherPPC replied: “First off, it’s an option. Second, it’s your music, and if you consider your music collection to be ‘shit’, why are you even interested in portable players?”
PantherPPC lunges, and makes a clean kill. 😉
“Kind of like how a music management app without an online store is the best, right?”
Exactly. Needless bloat and bundle.
The music store is, I know I am tired of typing it, a lock-in device. It is control marketing loaded with DRM just like most of them, if not all, are.
Users should care about DRM. It limits the consumers right to choose.
“Who’s stopping you from buying CDs and ripping them?”
My point to a tee. Support the hardworking used CD store in your town. Chances are a used, high quality CD will still be cheaper than $.99US per track. You control the music that way. That is ease of use. Are we so lazy that online is the only way to go. Don’t answer that, we are and I know it but it doesn’t mean the easy solution is the right solution.
It hurts the better educated technical user as long as the customer buys into the idea of DRM and DRM supporting devices. We get limited in the innovation department while Apple, Virgin Mega, Napster and the RIAA laugh all the way to the bank.
I applaud Apple for trying to make music legal and accessable. I really do. It is the DRM I take issue with.
“I applaud Apple for trying to make music legal and accessable. I really do. It is the DRM I take issue with.”
And yet without Apple’s DRM, this accessable music would not be allowed by the record labels.
Its not meant as a lock in device for a company, its a means of keeping you from copying music anywhere. The fact that it also works as a lock in device is a side affect however.
If we want accessable music like we have on the iTMS then DRM is a necessary evil. With that in mind, we must opt for the most lenient of all the DRMs out there… which coincidentally is Apple’s DRM.
“Exactly. Needless bloat and bundle.”
Really? I considered it one of the biggest additions to music management in years.
“The music store is, I know I am tired of typing it, a lock-in device. It is control marketing loaded with DRM just like most of them, if not all, are.”
Hmm. I considered it an extra option when buying music. If it shut down CD stores I’d be worried. But it’s just an option.
“Users should care about DRM. It limits the consumers right to choose.”
I care a lot about DRM. I care that I have no reason to have more than 7 copies of the same CD, I care that it doesn’t stop me from listening to my music anywhere and on anything. I care that it only stops people from giving away music they didn’t pay for, or worse yet, selling music that isn’t theirs to sell.
“”Who’s stopping you from buying CDs and ripping them?”
My point to a tee. Support the hardworking used CD store in your town. Chances are a used, high quality CD will still be cheaper than $.99US per track.”
Again, that’s still an option. I’ve bought 7 CDs there in the past two months. I also buy about 1 album a week on iTunes, as well as the occasional single song (not an option in CD stores) when the rest of the album sucked. It’s just another option to buy music.
“You control the music that way. That is ease of use. Are we so lazy that online is the only way to go. Don’t answer that, we are and I know it but it doesn’t mean the easy solution is the right solution.”
So how exactly am I limited? What are they not allowing me to do?
“It hurts the better educated technical user as long as the customer buys into the idea of DRM and DRM supporting devices. We get limited in the innovation department while Apple, Virgin Mega, Napster and the RIAA laugh all the way to the bank.”
Yeah, online music is in no way an innovation. Ease of use an portable players are really hurting my music habits.
“I applaud Apple for trying to make music legal and accessable. I really do. It is the DRM I take issue with.”
You seem to have an issue with DRM in a philosophical sense, and not in how it’s actually being used.
So tell me, what exactly is it that FairPlay doesn’t allow you to do that you want to do?
This thead is so off topic now as a result of the trolls here. Lets get back on topic and talk about how Apple cut prices even below their already low-priced Mac mini.
“This thead is so off topic now as a result of the trolls here. Lets get back on topic and talk about how Apple cut prices even below their already low-priced Mac mini.”
Okay. I’m probably buying one as an extra machine for home. You?
You brought up options. That is what I am talking about. Like I said, I give Apple credit for trying.
“You seem to have an issue with DRM in a philosophical sense, and not in how it’s actually being used.”
That is the core of it. DRM, EULAs and the like harm open and growing markets. If I may quote Fred von Lohmann from the http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/archives/001557.php“>Electronic site:
“So you’re Apple, and you make all your money selling iPods. You invest in the Music Store to make the iPod even more attractive, never intending to make much margin on the 99 cent downloads. But here’s the problem — you really don’t want every other maker of portable digital music players to free-ride on your Music Store investment. After all, the Music Store is supposed to make the iPod more attractive than the competition.
Here’s where FairPlay comes in. It’s a great barrier to entry that keeps the iPod as the exclusive device for the Music Store. Competitors who dare to reverse engineer the protocols or otherwise support interoperability find themselves staring down the barrel of the DMCA.
And, of course, Apple’s FairPlay DRM is pathetic as a mechanism for “protecting” copyright owners — every copy of iTunes allows users to neutralize FairPlay by burning to CD and re-ripping to MP3. No wonder Eric Garland at Big Champagne tells us that every “exclusive” iTunes track has been up on Kazaa within 2 minutes of release. At the same time, FairPlay is plenty good enough to frustrate legitimate users.
It’s rather cynical, isn’t it? FairPlay is bad for everyone besides Apple. Useless to copyright owners, irritating to legit customers. So, when you think about it, Apple’s warm embrace of DRM here is every bit as reprehensible as Lexmark’s effort to use DRM to eliminate interoperable printer cartridges and Chamberlain’s effort to use DRM against replacement garage door clickers.”
So to answer what exactly is it that FairPlay doesn’t allow me to do…it doesn’t allow me to use music purchased from the iTunes store without the above mentioned barrier. That, philosphically and actually is insulting and wrong.
Actually, I will probably pick up a Mini. Great idea there. Very nice machine and finally, now that the RAM and Superdrive are cheaper, a great deal. I am going to use it to give Yellow Dog 4.0 a try.
Nice debating with you. Too bad we got the troll label but your points are all valid and well reasoned and I salute you.
“That is the core of it. DRM, EULAs and the like harm open and growing markets. If I may quote Fred von Lohmann from the http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/archives/001557.php Electronic Frontiers Foundation site:
“So you’re Apple, and you make all your money selling iPods. You invest in the Music Store to make the iPod even more attractive, never intending to make much margin on the 99 cent downloads. But here’s the problem — you really don’t want every other maker of portable digital music players to free-ride on your Music Store investment. After all, the Music Store is supposed to make the iPod more attractive than the competition.
Here’s where FairPlay comes in. It’s a great barrier to entry that keeps the iPod as the exclusive device for the Music Store. Competitors who dare to reverse engineer the protocols or otherwise support interoperability find themselves staring down the barrel of the DMCA.”
Aah, but it doesn’t stop you from buying another player, buying CDs, or anything like that. Again, if online stores were the only way to buy music, we’d be screwed, and I’d probably be one of the first to put up a big fight. As it stands though, I still buy CDs. It’s just another option.
“And, of course, Apple’s FairPlay DRM is pathetic as a mechanism for “protecting” copyright owners — every copy of iTunes allows users to neutralize FairPlay by burning to CD and re-ripping to MP3. No wonder Eric Garland at Big Champagne tells us that every “exclusive” iTunes track has been up on Kazaa within 2 minutes of release. At the same time, FairPlay is plenty good enough to frustrate legitimate users.”
I really still don’t get how it’s frustrating users. And yes, FairPlay can easily be worked around (hint – iMovie can strip FairPlay without the need to burn a CD). FairPlay isn’t a plot to stop you from listening to music, it’s a method to make major labels think it’s okay to sell music online.
“It’s rather cynical, isn’t it? FairPlay is bad for everyone besides Apple. Useless to copyright owners, irritating to legit customers.”
There’s still no reasoning behind how it’s bad for customers. And for copyright owners, it’s gets the music sold via another outlet.
“So, when you think about it, Apple’s warm embrace of DRM here is every bit as reprehensible as Lexmark’s effort to use DRM to eliminate interoperable printer cartridges and Chamberlain’s effort to use DRM against replacement garage door clickers.”
Apple’s embrace of DRM is to get major labels to allow their music to be sold online. As for the corruption of the music industry, that’s an entirely separate matter (as far as I’m concerned the RIAA can go screw itself).
“So to answer what exactly is it that FairPlay doesn’t allow me to do…it doesn’t allow me to use music purchased from the iTunes store without the above mentioned barrier. That, philosphically and actually is insulting and wrong.”
The barrier of burning a CD? So it’s harder to burn a CD than to drive to the store and pick one up? Even putting CDs aside, FairPlay allows burning the same playlist 7 times and store the same music file on 5 computers and unlimited iPods (last I checked). How many copies of the same disc do you need, and how many computers do you keep your music collection on?
On another note, I agree the philosophy of DRM is very big brother-ish, but so long as it doesn’t stop me from doing what I want to do, I don’t have a problem with it.
“Actually, I will probably pick up a Mini. Great idea there. Very nice machine and finally, now that the RAM and Superdrive are cheaper, a great deal. I am going to use it to give Yellow Dog 4.0 a try.”
I rather like YDL 4. It’s a big improvement from 3 (still has a few issues keeping it off my laptop), and I dual boot between it and OS X on my G5 at work. My only major complaint is that there’s no fully functional Flash player for PPC Linux (not Terra Softs fault though).
“Nice debating with you. Too bad we got the troll label but your points are all valid and well reasoned and I salute you.”
Hey, it’s nice to debate someone who isn’t trolling (not naming names, but a few come to mind). Hmmm, hint hint, someone should set up a site just for debating, maybe with a user poll to determine and kick off users deemed trolls.
Well, i’ve done it, put my order to apple.ca and now I have to wait 3-4 weeks….
1.42GHz
512Mb
80GB
AirPort Extreme
8X SuperDrive
wired keyboard & mouse.
Wait wait wait…. so long!
Sold-to address: Date: 01/25/2005
Michael Jessop Our order number: XXXXXXXXXX
91 Highland Street PO number: XXXXXXXXXX
CANDIA NH 03034 Web order number: XXXXXXXXX
Apple customer no: XXXXXX
Ship-to address:
XXXXXXX XXXXXXX
99 XXXXXXXX Street
XXXXXX NH 99999
To Our Valued Apple Customer:
Thank you for your recent order.
We are writing to inform you that your order has been changed to reflect our
new, lower pricing!
Please visit the Apple Store online at <http://www.apple.com/store> to see the
latest pricing information for this product and many others!
Thank you for shopping at the Apple Store.
Apple Store Customer Support
🙂 Editing slipup.
“IGNORE THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN!” Or in this case the name and address in the previous post.
No price change for Australian store yet
Hopefully they will propagate to all the international stores.
Thank you for revealing that you are actually a real human being. LOL. It is far better than the inane discussions about how bad a product is because it does not fit my pleasures like a glove. I laugh at myself when I do something like that.
Welcome to the club.
Feel bad for people that only bought last week.
Some Mac mini user sites I found.
http://www.123macmini.com
http://www.macminiforums.com
http://www.byodkm.net/
i dont, they had the money for it and they where willing to pay that price. stuff always get cheaper with time and sometimes really fast. i remember a friend buying hardrives for 1000$ a pice to se them go for 450$ a pice a week later.
if your only waitning for prices to get lower then you be waiting for ever and never get any cool stuff.
if your willing to pay the price for the hardware you get then its a god buy.
My point to a tee. Support the hardworking used CD store in your town. Chances are a used, high quality CD will still be cheaper than $.99US per track. You control the music that way. That is ease of use. Are we so lazy that online is the only way to go. Don’t answer that, we are and I know it but it doesn’t mean the easy solution is the right solution.
That is a ridiculous argument. What if I want one track from a CD? Buying used CDs costs $5+Tax minimum. $.99 sounds like a better deal to me.
I applaud Apple for trying to make music legal and accessable. I really do. It is the DRM I take issue with.
Then don’t ever buy a CD, they are copyrighted. The way Apple does DRM is painless. You can always Rip your used CDs and put it on the iPod DRM free. What is your point?
DRM, EULAs and the like harm open and growing markets.
EULAs didn’t stop Microsoft and the PC from taking 95% of a growing market.
> “As for AAC, if this is an open format, why are unencrypted AAC files not supported on other portable devices?”
Because those devices don’t support Apple’s DRM. It has nothing to do with AAC.
I was talking about unencrypted AAC files. If I buy a DRM-laced tune off ITMS and used Hymn to decrypt it, how many portable devices besides iPods could I play it on? The reason why I brought up AAC specifically is because without this codec, there’s really no need to use iTunes, unless you just like running bloated apps.
As for Apple’s DRM’d AAC files, there’s going to be a time when ITMS no longer exists to authenticate people’s tunes. So, when they reinstall, all those songs they bought from ITMS are going to be completely useless – and I’m going to laugh my ass off at them too, cuz you know most of them haven’t ripped to mp3.
iPods have that first (bookmark) feature with audio books in audible format.
Bah, piss on the audible format – that’s worse than Apple’s Fairplay.
No major label would ever agree to an mp3 store. It’s not possible for anyone to pull that off. You’re asking the impossible.
If we gave them a mandate – either give us the file format we choose or we’ll put you out of business, what are they going to do?
As for Apple’s DRM’d AAC files, there’s going to be a time when ITMS no longer exists to authenticate people’s tunes. So, when they reinstall, all those songs they bought from ITMS are going to be completely useless – and I’m going to laugh my ass off at them too, cuz you know most of them haven’t ripped to mp3.
If that day comes, Isn’t it possible Apple might just disable the DRM scheme before pulling the plug!
If we gave them a mandate – either give us the file format we choose or we’ll put you out of business, what are they going to do?
I would love to see you pull that one off.
“I was talking about unencrypted AAC files. If I buy a DRM-laced tune off ITMS and used Hymn to decrypt it, how many portable devices besides iPods could I play it on?”
There are several. Yes, its true that there aren’t as maany that play MP3s, but I think you’re thinking that these players can’t play MP3s because its supposedly a proprietary format. If all the MP3 players out there aren’t supporting AAC, it has only to do with the fact that AAC is still only recently popularized.
“The reason why I brought up AAC specifically is because without this codec, there’s really no need to use iTunes, unless you just like running bloated apps.”
IThe fact that iTunes is the best music box software on the plant might have something to do with why someone might want to use iTunes. (I find it funny how some people regard feature-rich apps that they bruise their convoluted software ethics ego as bloated. It’s the last ditch comment of a person looking desperately for an insult for software but can’t find one. Its especially true if the software is not bloated.)
“As for Apple’s DRM’d AAC files, there’s going to be a time when ITMS no longer exists to authenticate people’s tunes.”
IIs that an effort to resurt the tired argument that its unwise to buy into Apple because you never know how long they’ll be around? It was a pathetic argument then and its a pathetic argument now.
“So, when they reinstall, all those songs they bought from ITMS are going to be completely useless – and I’m going to laugh my ass off at them too, cuz you know most of them haven’t ripped to mp3.”
So until that fateful day comes, then its only logical for all of us to laugh at you for proposing such a ridiculous notion.
“If we gave them a mandate – either give us the file format we choose or we’ll put you out of business, what are they going to do?”
Look at it from their perspective. You’re altimatim is asking them to either go out of business or go out of business.
When I said, “can’t play MP3s because its supposedly a proprietary format” in my first paragraph’s response, I meant to say, “can’t play AACs because its supposedly a proprietary format.”
” I was talking about unencrypted AAC files. If I buy a DRM-laced tune off ITMS and used Hymn to decrypt it, how many portable devices besides iPods could I play it on? The reason why I brought up AAC specifically is because without this codec, there’s really no need to use iTunes, unless you just like running bloated apps.”
AAC will soon play in all new DVD players. BTW, iTunes was a hit long before AAC.
“As for Apple’s DRM’d AAC files, there’s going to be a time when ITMS no longer exists to authenticate people’s tunes. So, when they reinstall, all those songs they bought from ITMS are going to be completely useless – and I’m going to laugh my ass off at them too, cuz you know most of them haven’t ripped to mp3.”
And you really think you won’t be able to de-DRM those files? Even iMovie does it.
“Bah, piss on the audible format – that’s worse than Apple’s Fairplay.”
They are audiobooks, what exactly are you wanting to do with them?
“If we gave them a mandate – either give us the file format we choose or we’ll put you out of business, what are they going to do?”
So let’s say, for arguments sake, that you actually organized all the music buying people on the planet to support this mandate. What exactly would you tell the labels? ‘Set up an mp3 store that you have no control over and will lose all you money and customers with or else we won’t buy any music!’ Yeah right. Get a grip. There’s no way you are going to get free music. A lot of work goes into writing and producing the stuff, and the people doing that work aren’t going to give it away.
Do you know what the biggest problem the record industry has with online music? It’s not that it’s being traded, it’s that the people buying it via iTMS or Napster, etc. and the people stealing it, aren’t listening to the music the record companies are pushing. They are losing control of the market. The big change isn’t about how people buy music, but about what music people buy. This is going to force labels to stop putting out filler, and start finding artists worth listening to. A lot of good is going to come out of this.
> “I was talking about unencrypted AAC files. If I buy a DRM-laced tune off ITMS and used Hymn to decrypt it, how many portable devices besides iPods could I play it on?”
There are several.
Which ones specifically?
IThe fact that iTunes is the best music box software on the plant might have something to do with why someone might want to use iTunes.
That is a matter of personal opinion. Personally, I see it as being the jack of all trades, master of none.
“As for Apple’s DRM’d AAC files, there’s going to be a time when ITMS no longer exists to authenticate people’s tunes.”
IIs that an effort to resurt the tired argument that its unwise to buy into Apple because you never know how long they’ll be around? It was a pathetic argument then and its a pathetic argument now.
I’m not picking on just Apple here – I have the same complaint about WMA. But at least with WMA, you have an assload of players to play it on. With Fairplay, you only have one. (Personally though, I don’t buy into either of them, so don’t think I’m playing favorites.)
“Bah, piss on the audible format – that’s worse than Apple’s Fairplay.”
They are audiobooks, what exactly are you wanting to do with them?
I have audiobooks from various sources, not just from Auidble. So if the bookmark feature only works with audible stuff, it ain’t much use to me.
“If we gave them a mandate – either give us the file format we choose or we’ll put you out of business, what are they going to do?”
So let’s say, for arguments sake, that you actually organized all the music buying people on the planet to support this mandate. What exactly would you tell the labels? ‘Set up an mp3 store that you have no control over and will lose all you money and customers with or else we won’t buy any music!’
As far as how they would do it, there’s a site in Russia (not legal here in the US) that sells online music. When you buy a tune, you get to pick which codec and bitrate you want, and it encodes it on the fly – this sounds like a plan to me! As for people not buying music, can you tell me one song on ITMS that isn’t already available for free on P2P or Usenet? Honestly, if I wanted to steal the music, I would do that … I sure as hell wouldn’t be having this discussion. The reason why I am talking about this is because I want to purchase music online legally, but I don’t want to have to depend on some authentication server located in God only knows where always having to be present in order for my music to work. I’m sorry, but that just doesn’t sound all that unreasonable a concern to me.
” That is a matter of personal opinion. Personally, I see it as being the jack of all trades, master of none.”
Yeah, because it’s sooo horrible at managing music, and the store obviously sucks. Lol.
“I’m not picking on just Apple here – I have the same complaint about WMA. But at least with WMA, you have an assload of players to play it on. With Fairplay, you only have one. (Personally though, I don’t buy into either of them, so don’t think I’m playing favorites.)”
Oh come on now. You honestly can’t figure out how to rid the DRM from the files? Or how to convert them to mp3s? Apple has even posted technotes about it on their website. If they had to shut down the store, it wouldn’t exactly be hard to drop the DRM from existing files with a simple software update.
“I have audiobooks from various sources, not just from Auidble. So if the bookmark feature only works with audible stuff, it ain’t much use to me.”
Which has what to do with it’s DRM scheme in comparison to FairPlay? That is why you said to piss on it and that it’s worse than FairPlay, right?
“As far as how they would do it, there’s a site in Russia (not legal here in the US) that sells online music. When you buy a tune, you get to pick which codec and bitrate you want, and it encodes it on the fly – this sounds like a plan to me!”
That doesn’t mean there isn’t DRM.
“As for people not buying music, can you tell me one song on ITMS that isn’t already available for free on P2P or Usenet? Honestly, if I wanted to steal the music, I would do that … I sure as hell wouldn’t be having this discussion.”
So if you won’t steal it, how is your mandate going to be taken seriously?
“The reason why I am talking about this is because I want to purchase music online legally, but I don’t want to have to depend on some authentication server located in God only knows where always having to be present in order for my music to work. I’m sorry, but that just doesn’t sound all that unreasonable a concern to me.”
Umm, that’s not how it works. You authenticate the computer and it connects to the server. After that point it doesn’t need to connect to the server for anything unless you deauthenticate. So you don’t have to depend on a server. If you did you would have to be online whenever you wanted to listen to music.
So what you want is to be able to download music with no legal restriction on it at all, even though the DRM schemes don’t actually stop you from doing anything. Guess what, music has never been like that. Albums, 8-tracks, cassettes, and CDs all have legal restrictions, and with good reason. If you want to fight the corruption in the music industry, I’m with you, but don’t put the blame on DRM.
Another lame argument on Fairplay.
Gee how hard is it to burn AAC protected files to a CD in AIFF format and import them back and put the tag info back in?
You know why iTMS is so popular? Fairplay works for people who want to buy music online. If you want to pirate it then no service will really work for you.
“Gee how hard is it to burn AAC protected files to a CD in AIFF format and import them back and put the tag info back in?”
When you use DRM AAC files in iMovie it strips the DRM.
I really don’t understand the big problem people are having with ACC / Fairplay and iTunes / iTMS. Its acutally simplified my audio collection a lot in terms of being able to do what I want with my music.
Before, I’d go out and buy CDs (albums or singles) and then rip them to Shorten (later APE when it started having better compression ratios). Mind you for some reason lossless compression isn’t very popular – odd since storage capacity is basically in a pricing free-fall. Anyway since MP3 is the end-all-be-all of audio for pundits everywhere, finding a nice portable player for .shn or .ape files – its not exactly a pleasant experience.
Now I can rip all of my CD (albums and singles) to Apple Lossless, aka ACC ALS (formerly the LPAC codec). In the case where I don’t want to buy an album because I know I only like on song on the CD and there isn’t a single of that track out, I now have the added option of buying the single track off of iTMS. Sure the iTMS songs are only 128kbs ACC (and yes that does irritate me) however its $0.99 vs $15.99 for the single song I wanted. Using iTunes and the iPod I have a very nice integrated solution that allows me to play both my lossless collection and the “singles” I pick up off iTMS either on my PC or on the go.
Additionally, iTunes lets me convert my ACC ALS library to ACC-Low-Complexity on the fly as it populates my iPod. I get the format freedom of encoding in lossless, without sacrificing ease of use with a portable player, seamless integration and coversion lossless to lossy conversion on the fly for storage capacity efficiency. The only exception to this are those iTMS songs I pick up – but again I get what I pay for and at $0.99 I can’t complain much. (I get much more enjoyment than I would have spending that on a pack of gum.)
This iPod shuffle review was poor. People who get hung up on dumb things and miss the obvious stuff shouldn’t do reviews.
First off the Sandisk model looses big cause it has to use a USB cable, hello Mcfly! right there you have destroyed the main use for this thing, being able to shove it right in a USB port, thus making it a Flash Memory stick. No one will use it that way if they have to carry a cable with them.
I think thats a biggy that so many people are missing here, don’t look at the shuffle as a MP3 player, look at it as a USB flash stick with bonus features. I Just ordered my 1 gig shuffle, and using it for moving files is nearly more important then playing songs since i was going to buy a USB memory stick anyways.
Secondly, the shuffle is a secondary iPod, and a specialized iPod, capacity has nothing to do with it. You only load just the songs you really want to listen to for a bit onto it and you go with it, you will never want to go searching for a song. How often do you even look for a specific song in itunes? most rarely do, they just have it on shuffle anyways, maybe it will get to a cd you like and you put it in straight play mode, which you can do on the shuffle as well. At worse case you might click skip to get to the next song if the song playing doesn’t do it for you at the moment. Furthermore, why would you be laying around the house listening to an ipod, turn on your computers music, or home stereo, why would i want headphones on in my house. Sure maybe it’s to keep noise down, but please, and at that point you are already out of the focus of the shuffle. The main time you will use it is for going running and so forth. The thing it meant to have you hit play, then shove it in your pocket or on your arm and go running. No messing with songs and such, thus why no screen, there is no reason for it since the usage pattern it’s ment for involves no screen usage.
The shuffle is a cheap basic unit meant for loading up quick favorites and going and doing something, then hooking it back to your computer later. It’s not meant to hold anyones collection, or be much of anything other then a flash drive with song playing ability.
When will people understand this, then again people still can’t get anything right about ACC, itunes, DRM and so forth, so it’s probably a lost cause.
The only thing the sandisk unit has that could be nice is the voice recorder. I intend to get a full-size ipod someday, and will be getting such a add on. I’m not sure how much one could store on a 1 gig flash model anyways. The other “bonus’s” as he sees them are just worthless chunkiness added on to the device. The fact the shuffle doesn’t have a screen is a bonus to me, one less thing to break, or wear down batteries, or add cost. Plus the shuffle does have a nice overall look.
The shuffle is what the mini should have been. The mini doesn’t make much sense, it’s a bit smaller then the regular, but far less storage, but all the same drawbacks of the big one when you are trying to get something super small and durable like the shuffle. The shuffle for sure will cut into the mini sales.
For people who bought the mini with options that are being discounted, Apple offers a 10 day (From Order Shipment) price guarantee, so most people who bought a Mini should be covered:
“Should Apple reduce its price on any shipped product within 10 calendar days of shipment, you may contact Apple Sales Support at 1-800-676-2775 to request a refund or credit of the difference between the price you were charged and the current selling price. To receive the refund or credit you must contact Apple within 14 business days of shipment.”
http://store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/salespolicies.html#Apple~*…
I had a requirement for a system that I thought I could fill using a Mac mini, but even with the price cuts, it’s silly for me to buy a mini for my purpose, which is network serving.
I need a *nix system that will do HTTP/FTP/mail serving, currently my Windows machine does the HTTP serving using apache2.
If I get a mini, I’ll be spending around $800 CAD after tax and memory (not from Apple).
If I build a little PC from a mATX case, a Sempron CPU, 512MB RAM and put my existing two 200GB file-storage drives in it and install FreeBSD, I’ll need to spend a mere $300 CAD at the most to have such a server.
Now if I would be actually using the GUI interface of the server, I’d be interested in the mini, but the server will be running headless with ssh, so that also nullifies the OSX advantage here.
The only thing going for the mini in this scenario is it’s tiny size, but I live alone and I have plenty of more room, so I can ignore that advantage too.
Despite all the above rational for not getting a mini, something inside me is yelling at me to buy a Mac mini, for no reason at all. 🙂
I agree with others, that many users of windows, don’t have a clue what they are talking about.
If you think iTunes is proprietary, and Windows Media is not, I’ve got some swamp land you might be interested in.
iTunes will even convert WMA files to AAC, which can be converted to MP3, WAV, AAIF, Apple Lossless, or from any one, to another one.
Change your import preferences in iTunes, and try “right clicking” your multi button mouse.
The world at you finger tips.
Do some reading!
http://www.apple.com/itunes/import.html
Oh come on now. You honestly can’t figure out how to rid the DRM from the files? Or how to convert them to mp3s? Apple has even posted technotes about it on their website. If they had to shut down the store, it wouldn’t exactly be hard to drop the DRM from existing files with a simple software update.
So far as I see it, I’ve got two options with Fairplay DRM files:
1. Burn to CD, then convert to a codec that works on many portable devices, thus taking a hit in audio quality
2. Strip the DRM out, so that I end up with unencrypted AAC files that only work on iPods (as opposed to other portable devices, not PCs)
So with Fairplay, it’s either lose audio quality or stay locked in to iPods. Neither of these is an acceptable option to me. Of course, you could always just buy/rip CDs (unless they’re copy-protected), but then you could use whatever the hell you wanted.
>”I have audiobooks from various sources, not just from Auidble. So if the bookmark feature only works with audible stuff, it ain’t much use to me.”
Which has what to do with it’s DRM scheme in comparison to FairPlay? That is why you said to piss on it and that it’s worse than FairPlay, right?
No, I was responding to a different question. The reason why it sucks worse than Fairplay is because the files are harder to convert to something I can use on non-Audible devices. At least with ITMS, the process is pretty automated.
“>As far as how they would do it, there’s a site in Russia (not legal here in the US) that sells online music. When you buy a tune, you get to pick which codec and bitrate you want, and it encodes it on the fly – this sounds like a plan to me!”
That doesn’t mean there isn’t DRM.
Read what I wrote – you can get the tunes in mp3 or ogg if you want, hence no DRM (which I suppose is why it’s illegal in the uS).
“>As for people not buying music, can you tell me one song on ITMS that isn’t already available for free on P2P or Usenet? Honestly, if I wanted to steal the music, I would do that … I sure as hell wouldn’t be having this discussion.”
So if you won’t steal it, how is your mandate going to be taken seriously?
Easy, companies will take something very seriously if enough people quit buying their product.
point (DRM’d music) doesn’t need to connect to the server for anything unless you deauthenticate. So you don’t have to depend on a server. If you did you would have to be online whenever you wanted to listen to music.
So what happens if you reinstall the OS or switch computers?
So what you want is to be able to download music with no legal restriction on it PantherPPC
I don’t mind DRM in general, so long as I have a GUARANTEE that my music is going to play when I want, where I want, and how I want. None of this ‘only on xyz portable devices’ bullshit.
even though the DRM schemes don’t actually stop you from doing anything.
Sure it does. In the case of Fairplay, I can’t play the music on non-iPod devices without losing audio quality. That is a big deal to me.
Guess what, music has never been like that. Albums, 8-tracks, cassettes, and CDs all have legal restrictions, and with good reason.
Well, it WASN’T like that until CD burners came along – now I’m not willing to go back.
So I bought a mini the day it came out. And less than a week later (1 day after I received it), Apple changed the specs, so that now I have a “below spec” mini.
I called Apple to exchange my unopened mini for a “current spec” mini — I would really like the 8X +RW optical drive — and found that any product with any option is a “non-returnable” product.
Apple management made the decision to burn the early adopters on the mini instead of waiting a week to ship the units. It’s not like Apple didn’t have 8X optical drives and 5400rpm hard drives ready to go. Obviously they did. Apple just decided to blow out the old inventory by selling it to the early adopters.
So I will contacting the California State Attorney General regarding Apple’s deceptive business practices (non-returnable merchandise) and going back to the PC world. Apple is too insanely greedy and not worth dealing with.
Sure it does. In the case of Fairplay, I can’t play the music on non-iPod devices without losing audio quality. That is a big deal to me.
If audio quality is so important to you, why would you listen to any compressed music at all. By the way most popular CDs in the market have crap audio quality to begin with. Some CDs that have been carefully engineered are wonderfully recorded. You still need a decent HIFI system to appreciate the differences in a recording.
No protable player or Computer speaker can duplicate that. So yo will take a audio quality hit regrdless of whether you get your music DRM free in mp3, wma or ogg or ATRAC3 or AAC
1. Starts out in the first paragraph indicating the iPod shuffle purchase was a mistake.
2. Criticisms of missing display are fine…and common…and missing the point of the shuffle…but okay. Won’t hit him for that.
3. Loves the fact that you can (have to?) manually load your music via the Windows Explorer? An integration only a mother could love. Fails to mention the simplicity that iTunes brings to the iPod product.
4. The feature lists at the end for each product are mis-leading…leaving the casual reader with the impression that the lists are mutually exclusive.
Generally poorly written IMHO.
If audio quality is so important to you, why would you listen to any compressed music at all.
Let’s look at it this way. Normally with compressing music, the formula is like this:
Original source –> (audio quality loss) –> Compressed format
In regards to converting a DRM file to non-DRM, the formula goes like this:
Original source –> (audio quality loss) –> DRM format –> (MORE audio quality loss) –> non-DRM compressed format.
On my system, I can tell the difference between the original AAC and the converted mp3 files – that’s enough for me. There is a difference between CD and AAC but that bad, IMHO.
3. Loves the fact that you can (have to?) manually load your music via the Windows Explorer? An integration only a mother could love. Fails to mention the simplicity that iTunes brings to the iPod product.
Unless you just want to copy a bunch of random songs to the Shuffle, you’ve still have to undergo the process of firing up iTunes and choosing which tunes (or playlists) you want to copy over. Seems it would be faster to do this using Explorer.
“So with Fairplay, it’s either lose audio quality or stay locked in to iPods. Neither of these is an acceptable option to me. Of course, you could always just buy/rip CDs (unless they’re copy-protected), but then you could use whatever the hell you wanted.”
Or strip the DRM and convert to MP3, ending with the same quality as you would from a ripped CD.
“No, I was responding to a different question. The reason why it sucks worse than Fairplay is because the files are harder to convert to something I can use on non-Audible devices. At least with ITMS, the process is pretty automated.”
Umm, you can burn a CD.
“Read what I wrote – you can get the tunes in mp3 or ogg if you want, hence no DRM (which I suppose is why it’s illegal in the uS).”
And you still see this as an option?
“Easy, companies will take something very seriously if enough people quit buying their product.”
So you think people are going to stop buying music, and not steal it? They are just supposed to be happy with what they already have. I have never met anyone who considered their music collection to be complete. Never.
“So what happens if you reinstall the OS or switch computers?”
Then you deauthenticate the computer. It’s very simple. Maybe you should read up on how this works before complaining about it.
“I don’t mind DRM in general, so long as I have a GUARANTEE that my music is going to play when I want, where I want, and how I want. None of this ‘only on xyz portable devices’ bullshit.”
Again, what can’t you do?
“Sure it does. In the case of Fairplay, I can’t play the music on non-iPod devices without losing audio quality. That is a big deal to me.”
You can convert stripped files to MP3, ending up with the same quality you would from a ripped CD. Then again, you are paying for compressed music. If you want full quality downloads, you’re out of luck.
“Well, it WASN’T like that until CD burners came along – now I’m not willing to go back.”
Yes, it was like that. It was illegal to copy music. There were countless lawsuits and legal battles over cassettes when they came out. It’s just easier to infringe on copyrights now.
“So I will contacting the California State Attorney General regarding Apple’s deceptive business practices (non-returnable merchandise) and going back to the PC world. Apple is too insanely greedy and not worth dealing with.”
The most you are going to get is for Apple to give you the price difference, which they will do anyway. Companies can’t support buyers remorse, especially one so silly.
” Let’s look at it this way. Normally with compressing music, the formula is like this:
Original source –> (audio quality loss) –> Compressed format
In regards to converting a DRM file to non-DRM, the formula goes like this:
Original source –> (audio quality loss) –> DRM format –> (MORE audio quality loss) –> non-DRM compressed format.
On my system, I can tell the difference between the original AAC and the converted mp3 files – that’s enough for me. There is a difference between CD and AAC but that bad, IMHO.”
Maybe you should learn how to compress music properly.
“Unless you just want to copy a bunch of random songs to the Shuffle, you’ve still have to undergo the process of firing up iTunes and choosing which tunes (or playlists) you want to copy over. Seems it would be faster to do this using Explorer.”
Hence why that’s still an option. And seeing as iTunes can be set to open automatically, it’s not a hard thing to start it. After that, it’s just a matter of preference in what you organize with.
Or strip the DRM and convert to MP3, ending with the same quality as you would from a ripped CD.
So you’re saying that ripping from CD to a lossy codec is the same as ripping from CD to a lossy codec, then converting that to another, different lossy codec?
Anyone else care to comment on this?
>”No, I was responding to a different question. The reason why it sucks worse than Fairplay is because the files are harder to convert to something I can use on non-Audible devices. At least with ITMS, the process is pretty automated.”
Umm, you can burn a CD.
And then playing it with what? THe shortest audiobook I’ve seen is about 4 hours long, so not like youc an burn that to an 80min audio CD and then convert that to something else.
>”Read what I wrote – you can get the tunes in mp3 or ogg if you want, hence no DRM (which I suppose is why it’s illegal in the uS).”
And you still see this as an option?
So you think people are going to stop buying music, and not steal it?
Yeah, that would be optimal, at least until the RIAA gets the point and changes its ways. Of course, since people think that music is air and they have to have it, this will probably never happen. People thing in terms of either ‘buy it or steal it’ … they don’t even consider ‘do without for a little while’ as an option.
They are just supposed to be happy with what they already have. I have never met anyone who considered their music collection to be complete. Never.
Well, you could always buy used CDs. Of course, if people were buying used CDs, the RIAA would simply buy a law that made that illegal, so you’d have to do without for awhile anyway.
Then you deauthenticate the computer. It’s very simple. Maybe you should read up on how this works before complaining about it.
And then what? How do you re-authenticate if an authentication server does not exist? So, the senario I’m thinking of is:
a) DRM provider shuts down the authentication server(s)
b) You either reinstall the OS or switch computers
c) Your DRM’d music no longer plays
Are you saying this can’t happen, ever?
Yes, it was like that. It was illegal to copy music. There were countless lawsuits and legal battles over cassettes when they came out. It’s just easier to infringe on copyrights now.
AFAIK, making copies of legal music that you purchased for personal use is definitely legal.
“So you’re saying that ripping from CD to a lossy codec is the same as ripping from CD to a lossy codec, then converting that to another, different lossy codec?
Anyone else care to comment on this?”
No, I know that ripping from a CD to a lossy codec will give you results very similar to rippring from nonDRM AAC to the same lossy codec. Burning to a CD isn’t the only option to strip DRM, and iTMS files weren’t ripped from CDs, they were compressed from masters. They made a big deal about that when they opened the store.
“And then playing it with what? THe shortest audiobook I’ve seen is about 4 hours long, so not like youc an burn that to an 80min audio CD and then convert that to something else.”
You can burn it to multiple CDs. Or you can convert it without burning it. As for quality, it’s just an audio book.
“Yeah, that would be optimal, at least until the RIAA gets the point and changes its ways. Of course, since people think that music is air and they have to have it, this will probably never happen. People thing in terms of either ‘buy it or steal it’ … they don’t even consider ‘do without for a little while’ as an option.”
When the options are buy it, steal it, or do without it, people aren’t going to choose to do without it. It’s a big part of peoples everyday lives. And they certainly won’t do without it when the DRM schemes don’t stop them from doing what they want to with it.
“Well, you could always buy used CDs. Of course, if people were buying used CDs, the RIAA would simply buy a law that made that illegal, so you’d have to do without for awhile anyway.”
Again, used CDs are another option. You’re talking like this is a one or the other scenario, when it’s not. And the RIAA isn’t going to stop people from opening and running used CD stores. That’s a transfer of license.
“And then what? How do you re-authenticate if an authentication server does not exist? So, the senario I’m thinking of is:
a) DRM provider shuts down the authentication server(s)
b) You either reinstall the OS or switch computers
c) Your DRM’d music no longer plays
Are you saying this can’t happen, ever?”
I’m saying they wouldn’t do that. The software checks for DRM before playing the file, so all they would have to do in case the store shuts down is a simple software update telling the software not to check for DRM and just play the file. It’s not like they are out to screw you.
“AFAIK, making copies of legal music that you purchased for personal use is definitely legal.”
And making copies of DRM’s music is legal too. They allow you to burn the songs unlimited times, and playlists 7 times before you have to change them. Do you need more than 7 copies of an album if you aren’t giving it away or selling it? And even if you do, you can put the playlist back for the 9th burn. Stop trying to make this so much more complicated than it is.
So I bought a mini the day it came out. And less than a week later (1 day after I received it), Apple changed the specs, so that now I have a “below spec” mini.
I called Apple to exchange my unopened mini for a “current spec” mini — I would really like the 8X +RW optical drive — and found that any product with any option is a “non-returnable” product.
Apple management made the decision to burn the early adopters on the mini instead of waiting a week to ship the units. It’s not like Apple didn’t have 8X optical drives and 5400rpm hard drives ready to go. Obviously they did. Apple just decided to blow out the old inventory by selling it to the early adopters.
So I will contacting the California State Attorney General regarding Apple’s deceptive business practices (non-returnable merchandise) and going back to the PC world. Apple is too insanely greedy and not worth dealing with.
Apple has a 10 day price matching policy. They will refund you the difference if you call the 800 number listed earlier in the thread. You should do a little bit of research before declaring the end of the world!
you seem to like to think your way through something which leads you to the conclusion you expected rather than actually DOING it and see.
you think that having an already set up playlist of all your favorite songs and then having iTunes randomly pick from that playlist to fill up the Shuffle is slower than you moving through your file system from one folder to the next… some times dropping down 2 levels at a time and then reversing 2 levels to get to the next group… just to pick a few songs from each folder?
sounds like you enjoy a lot of pain. I bet that in a head to head competition you could not have a library organized by band then by album and then fill a shuffle or any MP3 player of the same size faster than a person could fill a shuffle from before iTunes was open.
Just got a Shuffle from MicroCenter in Tyson’s Corner, VA.
I though that I needed to get some headphones. It came with them. Loaded the software, plugged it in and in less than 15 minutes I was out the door with my music. This thing is going to be great for jogging. The iPod and Mini were too big in my opinion. The Shuffle is perfect and I really don’t need an LCD, I will be too busy running or working out an LCD just slows you down.
I am sure people will be like, “How do I know what song I am listening too?” Thats what the headphones are for.