At its BrainShare conference, the company says its Novell Linux Desktop 10 will include a new desktop search technology, named Beagle, along with a technology for rendering the desktop using the GPU.
Novell Says Its Next Linux Desktop Will Surpass Windows
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Eugenia Loli
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Well, the point is that:There will never be commercial or closed-source applications for KDE.
Why do you think that Adobe acrobat 7 is GTK-based?
Why do you think that Nero is doing a linux port with GTK?
Because the market for closed source apps is non-existant at the moment, and it is not commercially viable for companies to buy development licenses? That shows you that the Linux desktop market is non-existant.
I accept your first part of this quote but GNOME is really broken, the point is, you as user don’t notice these things.
You are on to something here. First of all I agree with you that Gnome is broken and that KDE is a very nice architecture, and the especially the gnome-vfs stuff is totally groveling in the dust compared to kio-slaves. But if the user doesn’t notices it then KDE doesn’t stand a chance.
If the CEO of a company have to choose between Gnome or KDE he will go for Gnome due to better usability. He will probably see that KDE can be configured a lot, but he won’t know how to do it himself, that makes him feel stupid, and he doesn’t like that so he selects Gnome. Similar things happen at the marketing department on a company deciding if they are going to support Gnome or KDE.
> He will probably see that KDE can be configured a lot, but he won’t know how to do it himself.
Does such a person exist ? If he can distinguis between KDE, GNOME, Windows and MacOSX then you can be sure that after some fiddlign around he will be able to. You shouldn’t underestimate the skills of people.
> that makes him feel stupid, and he doesn’t like that so he selects Gnome.
He probably selects Windows or MacOSX because software that doesn’t cost money is worth nothing.
> Similar things happen at the marketing department on a company deciding if they are going to support Gnome or KDE.
Of course the marketing department are such ignorant shitheads ignoring Windows (99% of the marketshare) and MacOSX. Yeah how realistic. I went to university and did some economics science there.
Good to hear the great news,i hope they will succeed.
wow big deal you can find files better on your computer … give me a break invent somthing intresting like a interactive desktop or somthing cool
No doubt, KDE have the superiour technology over Gnome. But people will buy/use Gnome due to better looks, better usability, and better financial backing.
I think there’s more than that. In fact, I think that a good framework is WAY more important then the mythical “usability” (which according to what I read in this thread means “good for dumb users”, btw).
Superior technology -> Easier for developers to write great applications
Easier for developers -> More developers will be able to join that project
More developers -> More great applications
More great applications -> More users
Developers will prefer GTK’s LGPL license to Qt’s GPL license, just look at Adobe: They use GTK for their new Acrobat Reader 7.0 under Linux!
All the people talking about how GNOME’s technology/framework sucks are not even programmers. I challenge any of them to show me a project they are maintaining using GNOME’s framework. So, how can they deduce a framework sucks by looking by starring at widgets? Oh, I forget, I’m reading osnews. The site where people act like they have clue.
just look at Adobe: They use GTK for their new Acrobat Reader 7.0 under Linux!
Do you know that Adobe ALREADY HAS a Qt license?
http://www.trolltech.com/company/customers.html
From the rumors I’ve heard, Adobe has currently only one person working on the Linux stuff. So, probably that person was more familiar with Gtk.
I’m afraid this is just Nat Friedman mouthing off about some totally non-existant stuff – again. He just can’t resist taking that sock out, and I’m afraid this constant hyping of stuff that just isn’t ready of anything will kill of any chance Linux desktops have. Well, I think that chance has gone to be honest.
Anyone who has seen the current Gnome technology along with Cairo (or a lot of the X stuff) knows that it is nowhere near being ready to do anything like this reliably, let alone surpassing Windows. Beagle is nowhere near being as advanced as a whole WinFS system or the things that Apple are doing and planning for the future of things like Spotlight. This is just BS, and is just hurting open source software.
“During the demo, we will show six virtual 3-D desktops, the size of cubes, on the screen at the same time and how easy it is to switch between them.”
Obviously no one has told him the difference between demos and things actually working, something that Ximian or whatever they’re division is at Novell now have managed to do.
I don’t know why people persist in seeing these things is a sign that Novell is Gnome-centric because:
a) The stuff in this article, along with the other 20,000 others before it, is tosh.
b) Nothing has been produced that is in widespread use that users and developers can actually use, or are actually using – i.e. not open source developers of fanboys.
c) Suse (you know, that place that actually makes money), SLES and Suse Linux 9.3 are still KDE centric.
It’s the Emperor’s New Clothes Syndrome. Hey Nat, where’s your clothes?!
I challenge any of them to show me a project they are maintaining using GNOME’s framework.
I’m sure that was unintentional, but you’ve hit the nail on the head right there
.
From the rumors I’ve heard, Adobe has currently only one person working on the Linux stuff. So, probably that person was more familiar with Gtk.
Which basically means that developer had no financial back, no money for licenses for anything and had to use the first crap he/she could find.
Again – Linux desktops are not commercially viable as they stand.
Except that WinFS and Spotlight are vaporware. The GNOME technologies are in use today, yes that includes Beagle and Cairo.
Great. Another person that doesn’t understand what WinFS is (and therefore why MS is having such a hard time getting it out). It isn’t just file metadata search. Windows already has that. With MSN search it has it somewhat better. In Longhorn it’ll have it too without WinFS.
Wrong.
WinFS is just a metadata search.
I don’t know enough about Beagle to compare it to it, but I can compare it to Spotlight.
Where it differs from MSN search and Longhorn search is that MS has designed not in a simple metadata indexed search facility way, but in a grand scheme of relational access to the metadata and what have you.
Microsoft says:
The WinFS storage system technology will change the way that the user experiences an operating system. The core concept behind WinFS is that by storing data in a cohesive data store, not just a file system, systems and users can store rich metadata about a myriad of objects. In addition, these objects in WinFS will be able to be related to each other in fundamental ways. As a developer you can take advantage of this richness.
WinFS has a rich data model for storing data of all sorts of different structures. It does not require relational storage (even though it utilizes some relational database technology under the covers), or hierarchical storage (like LDAP data stores do), but allows developers to create their data structures and let WinFS store the data without ever requiring them to understand or make sense of the actual storage modality.
This is just a different way of storing indexes of data. There is nothing that WinFS is capable of that Spotlight+HFS is not, and more elegandly so (i.e with less redundant parts and APIs, thus with less potential bugs).
Since indexing in Spotlight is built in the filesystem level, syncrhonization of changes, notification and a unified store are all possible. A language to query items (similar to SQL) also exists.
Even NON file items can be stored in Spotlight, since nothing precludes this (on the contrary: applications will make use of Spotlight as a store for their own data type items, not necessarily real files).
Note, also, that since Spotlight is just an API for the applications using it, nothing prevents it from being implemented as a relational storage, if the need arises.
Futhermore, Spotlight exists (and will be sold to the public in about 20 days) while WinFS is just vapouware, and won’t be sold until 2006 (if ever).
Nat and Novell are on the right track. Linux already has the best ideas at the BASE levels–rich command line tools, kernel, general architecture. Windows has all the right stuff at the high levels (GUI, point-n-click, and new features for search and such in Longhorn) but is missing the proper essentials. Once Linux catches up at the “high levels,” which it has been doing rapidly, then the whole OS will be better for it. Once users start using it and taking it seriously, you’ll see “serious innovation.” Trust me.
> All the people talking about how GNOME’s technology/framework sucks are not even programmers. I challenge any of them to show me a project they are maintaining using GNOME’s framework.
Anytime!
Beagle demos for the naysayers.
http://nat.org/demos/
Actually your own MS quotes say that it’s an data/object storage, not just a plain metadata index.
@Uno Engborg
Does such a person exist ? If he can distinguis between KDE, GNOME, Windows and MacOSX then you can be sure that after some fiddlign around he will be able to. You shouldn’t underestimate the skills of people.
The thing is that after a while of fiddling, to figure it out he looks at his watch, sees how long time it took and multiply by the number of employees and calculates the cost. This is why Gnome as well as KDE and to some extent even MacOS-X have a disadvantage. The CEO knows that if he goes the windows way he will have access to a lot of people allready having the skills needed to handle the OS. This is why Linux and MacOS-X need to be significantly better with respect to usability to have a chance. MacOS-X allready is but it is hampered by its hardware platform.
He probably selects Windows or MacOSX because software that doesn’t cost money is worth nothing.
You are probably right in this. But he is probably not going to download Linux for free. He will buy it just like he does with windows (Or rather he buys support, but he will probably not notice the difference, as long as he is made pay trough the nose)
Of course the marketing department are such ignorant shitheads ignoring Windows (99% of the marketshare) and MacOSX. Yeah how realistic. I went to university and did some economics science there.
I was thinking of a scenario where you allready supported the windows and mac market and wanted to expand into Linux.
Such things exist just look at ther recently released Nero.
That’s all you need. Done deal.
very good, but i would like to add a bit more to it. winfs is two things, an api an a metadata rich filesystem made for that api. (ditto with spotlight) the google/msn desktop searchs are high level apis that basically emulate a db filesystem. they require more resources, and arnt anywhere near as powerful.
so spotlight will be by far the best implementation of the db filesystem to date, and will retail in a few days. beagle/msn/google are all things that kind of provide that functionality, just not as well. longhorn search will probably be a bit better then beagle(the current one at any rate), but not by much. as for winfs, we have been promised it by ms for years now, so i wouldnt hold my breath.
it would actually be feasable to get winfs/spotlight functionality today on linux with something like beagle and reiserfs+extensions. the only problem is that it would mean kernel mods, that would tie linux to reiser. i dont think the lkml guys will ever really go for that without a ton of pressure, so our best bet would be a module done by redhat or novell (or even better, fd.o) that will implement the nessicary functionality. however, dont expect that from the linux world at least until ms implements winfs and the linux guys get feature envy.
I don’t think you have used Beagle. I provide a link to a demo in a comment above. Beagle provides exactly the same functionality as Spotlight. And it is available today!
I wish they’d could tell just how they’ll surpass windows! To be honest i’m no fan of Windows so i hope they’ll surpass windows, but on the other side i’m no big fan of Linux either.
http://bitsofnews.com
I don’t think you should say that CEO’s “logical abilities” are a good source of reference. I’d remind you of the many failing companies in the US today because of bad CEO’s, but I’m sure you read the news.
No one on here makes 300G’s to play golf, so I wouldn’t bring CEO’s up
.
Don’t argue with me, it’s an intentional play on what people think CEO’s do; and like all plays it’s based on some level of truth; the argument is how much truth lies underneath it.
If its true then awesome. I’d love to see a real contender to Windows with a linux kernel.
If not then we’ll still have longhorn so end users aren’t going to lose one way or either.
Beagle is capable of using the inotify kernel patch to monitor changes made to the file system.
I fail to see what integration there is in winfs/spotlight that is not in beagle.
Microsoft has given no technical information on winfs. It is likely they are being purposely glib to hide the fact that they don’t what it will eventually be.
Except that WinFS and Spotlight are vaporware. The GNOME technologies are in use today, yes that includes Beagle and Cairo.
They’re not in use – they’re still in heavy development. It’s the same as a product still being internal within a company, as we’re talking about open source software here. I don’t know what you’re smoking, but Cairo is nowhere near being in use.
However, Spotlight does exist. Microsoft has serious problems integrating WinFS, and so we won’t see it for a while. Beagle is nowhere near as extensive, and it is an application – it isn’t a framework as Spotlight is and WinFS will eventually be.
Just because you’ve got code, doesn’t mean it is actually usable.
It does have an api.
The problem of course is that developers tend to create apps to scratch personal itches. I just wish they’d stop scratching the audio player one!
This opinion is wrong and originates from the utterly clueless essays of mr. Eric Raymond.
Open Source developers create apps because they want to. This “want” comes from three sources:
a) It scratches an itch that they have (i.e solves a problem for them).
b) They consider it fun or cool.
and, as of late, c:
c) They are paid to do so (e.g by Novell).
So, “scratching itches” is just ONE of several valid motives.
Clearly, the “let’s create another audio player” mostly stems from the (b) category: “Yep, an audio player would be a cool/fun project to undertake”.
Very few people have “itches” that are not scratched by current audio players.
(P.S We can add a (d) item in the list:
(d) They don’t have a particular itch to scratch, but they want to inflict their ideas about itch scratching tecniques upon the world. For example, “An existing player plays perfectly well audio files, but I wan’t to create a player that flashes red and yellow while playing or has that particular (useless) feature.”
One little problem with your “lots of commercial applications use Qt” inference. Commercial KDE applications (unless they’re GPL’d) will likely never exist. For a program to be truely integrated with KDE (being able to use all of the special KDE specific Qt widgets, etc.) seems to require linking against GPL code.
The point is, from a business perspective, GNOME is the more attractive platform. It has more corporate backing ultimately, and is seen more as a professional platform than a hacker’s platform.
They are going to build there own Aero?
How many people think the Novell guys (or whoever) can convert Windows users llike me by adding a new search feature and some eye candy?
You guys know what I want out of Linux before I’ll even consider switching – I won’t even bother to repeat it. And so if all of you know, why is it that companies like Novell can’t figure it out? Why do they continue to focus on all of the wrong areas? Linux (the OS) is perfectly usable as it is, so concentrate on what really matters, Novell.
having any disk i/o update the db at the same time is alot more performant then having a process watching for changes. beagle is high level search tool with low level hooks, spotlight is low level with a high level api. beagle may be able to do everything spotlight can (i refuse to talk about winfs like it is here, when ms has been promising it for so long and has just told us they wont be delivering it in the next version of windows), but it wont do it as well.
Surpass? Yeah right. Do the people at Novell think that we are idiots? I am not the biggest fan of Windows, but I can name off multiple reasons that describe how Linux just cannot compete for the mass consumer market. Lets look at the big one… Games. Linux still needs the support of these vendors which are going to stay with Windows. What about directory services? Nothing even comes close to MS’s active directory, nothing. And applications. You actually think that companies are going use Star Office or Open Office in the enterprise? Think again. Don’t get me wrong, I want to see Linux move to the top, but it a LONG ways out. So far, I have seen nothing from Novell but Vaporware. Let’s get real here folks.
I’m smoking stones, but you are high on rocks. Beagle is available and in use today. Heck, I have it installed. Spotlight exists on some developer’s box in lala land. WinFS, well, is WinFS, hype and promises.
Today, I can use Beagle. Today, I cannot use Spotlight or WinFS. And Beagle is a framework not an application. Beagle’s application would be Best. Cairo is used extensively by the Wamiea project.
You guys are pathetic! You all speak authoritatively on subjects you are ignorant of. Neither of you have used or installed Beagle. Yet you shameless clods have the balls to compare it products that aren’t even officially availabe.
http://www.gnome.org/projects/beagle/
this site: http://developer.apple.com/macosx/tiger/spotlight.html
suggest that spotlight works in the same way as beagle. With a “spotlight server” instead of the beagle daemon.
I believe osx already has the metadata server that they will be using. Whats being added are api to interact with the server as well as plugins that extract metadata from files.
There is no file system level interaction.
I am not talking about Beagle at all or WinFS for that matter, I am talking about Linux competing with Microsoft. Anyone that thinks Novell is just going release a product out of thin air and blow away Windows is as you would say “high on rocks”. Microsoft has a line of extablished partners that like to see a profit from thier products. You think they are going to drop everything and concentrate on a product like this? Now that is a pipe dream.
> Today, I can use Beagle. Today, I cannot use Spotlight
> or WinFS.
Anyone with access to the MacOS X “Tiger” BETA can use and Spotlight. I tried it myself and it’s great.
PWNED.
Apple has a good financial backing and are really starting to get a chunk of the market. If anyone will be able to compete with Microsoft, it will be Apple not Novell. Heck, look at Netware and draw your own conclusions. It is a pile a steaming dung.
And how many commoners have access to MacOS X “Tiger” BETA? Show me a link where I can freely download spotlight to test, then I’ll shut up. I promise.
“a technology for rendering the desktop using the GPU”. Cairo (Glitz) + Gnome ? Also how will it truly be functional without a stable universally supported accelerated X server ?
This is the same distribution, that heretofore can’t even allow an end-user change file permissions from the GUI?
If Apple could compete with Microsoft, why haven’t they done so in the last decade? I believe Linux’ market share today is higher that Apple’s and trends are showing it is continuing to grow. Contrast that with Apple’s market share that has falling drastically since the past decade.
One little problem with your “lots of commercial applications use Qt” inference. Commercial KDE applications (unless they’re GPL’d) will likely never exist. For a program to be truely integrated with KDE (being able to use all of the special KDE specific Qt widgets, etc.) seems to require linking against GPL code.
No, the KDE libraries are LGPL’d – if you have a Qt commercial license you can write commercial KDE apps.
The point is, from a business perspective, GNOME is the more attractive platform. It has more corporate backing ultimately, and is seen more as a professional platform than a hacker’s platform.
Yawn..
not cairo+glitz…Well, also that but actually he is talking about Xgl..
I am a fan and user of GNU/Linux. But I hope the number of GNU/Linux user will never be more than MS Windows. GNU/Linux was never intended to attract / steal Windows user.
Most users nowadays have no idea how to install an OS. 99% MS Windows users use computers that are pre-installed with Windows.These users expects the installation of OS is like buying a new toaster, and plug it in the power outlet.
GNU/Linux has not reach that level of user friendliness and I don’t think it’s supposed/should to. And the documentation needed to guide and hold the hands of these users aren’t here yet.
I guess I’m just tired of answering the same basic question over and over again by new GNU/Linux user. Example of a well known but seems now a forgoten fact: if you’re dual-booting Win-Linux, install Windows first.
Therefore, please keep MS Windows users where they are.
“everything but beagle will reach fedora and ubuntu and mandrake”
MDK already has beagle in contrib. Set up a contrib source for MDK 2005 and you’ll get beagle 0.0.7 (or 0.0.8 if it comes out before we hit deep freeze). Works fine…well, about as well as beagle works anywhere right now, which is not brilliantly.
if you have a Qt commercial license you can write commercial KDE
But if you don’t?
Yawn..
Yawn all you want, but it’s obvious from SUN, RedHat, and even Novell’s financial backing that KDE is not the choice for business. Nor will it be the choice for the Company I work for. If Qt is so great, why didn’t evolution get rewritten for it? Why does Novell continue to release applications written for Gtk? Why is most of their financial efforts going into improving the GNOME desktop and not the KDE desktop? The list goes on…
Mr. Shawn, please don’t ask those question to KDE trolls, cause no matter how obvious the answers are, they will always find another fantasy answer for they conveniece w/o aceptting the real one.
> And how many commoners have access to MacOS X “Tiger”
> BETA? Show me a link where I can freely download
> spotlight to test, then I’ll shut up. I promise.
You can’t download it because it’s not free software. You can either have it delivered to your door through the TigerKit (ADC membership) or wait till next month, I think, to purchase it for Apple PCs.
Beagle is in early alpha (version 0.0.7). Spotlight technology is rock solid and almost ready to ship. Which users will see the technology in proper use first?
KDE is not the choice for business
Apparently the Novell customers think it differently…
http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/feature/11878.html
“KDE is still the default desktop environment for SUSE LINUX Professional 9.3. The majority of our customers do prefer it.”
If Qt is so great, why didn’t evolution get rewritten for it?
If Novell is going GNOME, why didn’t Yast get rewritten in Gtk?
Maybe because is plain dumb rewriting 200.000+ lines of C code in C++? Beside that, KDE has Kontact, no need for Evolution.
Why does Novell continue to release applications written for Gtk?
Really? Kiosk is a Novell tool. It is Qt/KDE.
Why is most of their financial efforts going into improving the GNOME desktop and not the KDE desktop?
Why despite all these financial efforts going into improving the GNOME desktop, KDE still has more users, more developers, and a decent framework?
Have you tried *running* beagle yourself? It’s slow as molasses, eats huge amounts of memory, is stuffed full of leaks and falls over in a light breeze. This is not surprising, as it’s 0.0.7. What surprises me is that they’re confident they’re going to have it cleaned up and releasable for SuSE 9.3. I can sure see it being ready for NLD 10, but SuSE 9.3 is a bit of a bold move…
“You actually think that companies are going use Star Office or Open Office in the enterprise? Think again.”
No, I think that companies (and large government departments) already do.
“Commercial KDE applications (unless they’re GPL’d) will likely never exist. For a program to be truely integrated with KDE (being able to use all of the special KDE specific Qt widgets, etc.) seems to require linking against GPL code.”
Wrong. They can use Qt with the commercial license and link to all KDE stuff without a problem, as it is LGPL. Please at least try to inform yourself before making comments. Thanks in advance.
The technologies that power Spotlight are:
* A database consisting of a high-performance meta-data store and content index that is fully integrated into the file system.
* Programmatic APIs that are part of the CoreServices and Cocoa frameworks that let you query the meta-data store and content index.
* A set of importer plug-ins that are used to populate the meta-data store and content index with information about the files on the file system.
* A plug-in API allowing you to provide meta-data and content to be indexed for your application’s custom file formats.
thats a copy/paste from the link you sent me. read it all, then read the description of beagle and youll see the difference.
” By AdamW (IP: 204.209.209.—) – Posted on 2005-03-22 18:36:18
Have you tried *running* beagle yourself? It’s slow as molasses, eats huge amounts of memory, is stuffed full of leaks and falls over in a light breeze. ”
it’s normal it’s mono….
mono application speed are worst than java
Why despite all these financial efforts going into improving the GNOME desktop, KDE still has more users, more developers, and a decent framework?
if kde has more developers, more users, and a decent framework, where are all the kde killer apps? why is kde not being adopted by big business? where are all the cool (or kool to you kde folks) new technologies and apps developed for kde? and why the hell would you waste your time responding to a troll?
“Argue with idiots, and you become an idiot”
-Paul Graham
Ronald wrote: “Beagle is in early alpha (version 0.0.7).”
Are you having stability issues with it?
Ronald wrote: “Spotlight technology is rock solid and almost ready to ship.”
Is that why it crashed during Steve Job’s presentation at the Macworld San Francisco 2005 Expo Keynote?
If you knew a few things about software development, you’d realize early products of any software are usually buggy. Beagle isn’t any more alpha than Spotlight is. Well, at least until Spotlight is put to test in the real world.
Finally, appending version numbers behind products has long been used by commercial software developers to confuse and decieve consumers into thinking their product is stable. Spotlight version 100 does not necessarily qualify it as a stable product.
if kde has more developers, more users, and a decent framework, where are all the kde killer apps?
K3b, Amarok, Konqueror (undoubtedly the KDE killer app). Kontact is pretty good. Kiosk is amazing for its intended uses.
Qt apps: MainActor is an excellent commercial app.
why is kde not being adopted by big business?
Why isn’t GNOME adopted by big business either?
where are all the cool (or kool to you kde folks) new technologies and apps developed for kde?
kio_slaves. ’nuff said.
dude, you can say that about winfs, spotlight is shipping in a month. that means that tiger cds are going to be pressed any day now, and its definately code complete.
beagle isnt equivilent to spotlight featurewise, it isnt code complete, or even in testing/debugging phase yet. it has a hell of alot of potential, but dont try and make it something its not.
i would be willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that beagle will be better then “longhorn search” (i.e. non winFS), but wont hold a candle to spotlight.
If I hadn’t run Beagle, I wouldn’t be yapping about it. I’ll give you this, it’s a memory hug. But I don’t know about falling over and all the other stuff you mentioned. Which version of Mono do you have installed?
The GNOME vs KDE argument has gotten quite boring and redundant lately. GNOME and KDE both have their strengths and weaknesses, and they both have large corporate backing. Why do we have to fight over something like this? I honestly wouldn’t be suprised to find out that it’s a bunch of teenagers fighting over “My desktop environment’s corporate backing can beat your desktop environment’s corporate backing.”
Get a grip on reality. We need both, they both fill a need, they both compliment each other. It’s counter productive for people to argue over which one is better. We need a friendly, open-minded, and mature community to stay together and make things better for everybody, not just for the “smart people” that choose the software that we like and endorse.
Personally, I prefer GNOME. I like the direction it is taking and I like the fact that the developers for GNOME are willing to take risks (spatial nautilus, Mono). But when I introduce people to my Linux desktop and I explain what a desktop environment is, I tell them about both KDE and GNOME. I think we should all do the same.
Wow…I cant believe I read the entire thread. Its so funny actually to take a step back and read this stuff…grown up people in a very civilized name calling and your dad is better than my dad situation. It is all about choices. And only time will tell if Novell and M$ can deliver what they claim. Mac OS X has delivered so far on every account what they have claimed to deliver. Guess which OS user I am…
I am a Windows XP user. ITs all about choices. I chose to use XP because I hate command line interfaces and the way the that Linux has no good games on it after an intense coding session. I love Mac OS X because it is IMHO way better than what Linux distros have been able to achieve, a lot of Windows like ease of using very very powerful features, but their hardware is a turn off. It is all about choices. You guys just bash other users from being different. Chill out.
If Qt is so great, why didn’t evolution get rewritten for it?
If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.
The important thing is to make sure the various toolkits interoperate well, and coordinate via toolkit independent organisations such as freedesktop.org. End users really don’t care about the differences between Gnome, KDE, Firefox, OpenOffice etc apis.
Dude, for the last time, there is hardly any difference between Spotlight and Beagle, functionality wise. Pray tell me how Spotlight is automagically better than Beagle?
I obviously missed something, so thank you for bringing me up to date.
One further question though, could you provide me some links as to exactly when Nove took over the development of Adobe, Macromedia, 4D etc. etc. and made the decision not to develop these applications for their own platfom?
How about the fact that Novell has done sweet-bugger-all to pull developers to Linux as a platform to write commercial applications for. Novell has neither approached the big companies and licensed the source code to port (and then share the profits) or atleast sign a contract where by they pay for the porting of applications to their platform.
Sorry, people can handle not having Office or .Net Studio – they accept that Microsoft will never in a million years port their applications to Linux – and hence, people are willing to replace it with an OSS application, but most, like me, aren’t willing to give up applications they require for their work; I’m certainly not going to give up functionality simply to get some politically motivated feel good factor.
> Are you having stability issues with it?
Nope. I never used it. It’s not included in Distros (I tried UBUNTU last, guess why?). However I have tried the MacOS X “Tiger” BETA. And it’s great and very stable. I came away very impressed.
> Is that why it crashed during Steve Job’s presentation
> at the Macworld San Francisco 2005 Expo Keynote?
Even in BETA some small bugs can still occur. But that was over 2 months ago. They have engineers working on Spotlight all the time.
Btw, Spotlight looked great integrated into the OS and apps. When do you think Beagle will get such integration into Nautilus, Evolution and other GNOME apps, which year 2006 or 2007?
> If you knew a few things about software development,
> you’d realize early products of any software are usually > buggy. Beagle isn’t any more alpha than Spotlight is.
> Well, at least until Spotlight is put to test in the
> real world.
Spotlight is very near shipping quality code. And Beagle is…
> Finally, appending version numbers behind products has
> long been used by commercial software developers to
> confuse and decieve consumers into thinking their
> product is stable. Spotlight version 100 does not
> necessarily qualify it as a stable product.
When it’s going to be shipping next month, you can bet your 129$ US that it’s going to be stable as a rock. In which year do you think Beagle will be stable and fully functional? Will they be able to ship a stable version of Beable earlier than WinFS?
actually, i was trying to point out that if the superiority of an app is so apparent, then you lower yourself to the level of idiot by arguing with trolls. i was also trying to point out that financial resources and quality output have nothing to do with one another.
kio slaves are cool, but so is HAL/DBUS/G-V-M that gnome users have had since 2.6. beagle is simply stunning, if storage ever gets off the ground it will be the first real contender to spotlight/winfs in linux. im not saying one is better then the other, im saying that theres (currently) no dm in linux that is (objectively) better then anything else, and arguing about it is dumb.
now, lets move on to the qt “killer apps”.
K3B is a pretty frontend to standard stuff, its definately the prettiest frontend available atm, but i wouldnt call it a killer app.
amarok could also be called “yet another itunes clone”. also, rhythmbox came first (even though amarok is nicer) i would say itunes is the “killer app”, since jukeboxing apps on every platform are reduced to copying its ui.
konq is windows explorer done right. there are lots of people who dont like explorer though, enough that the category of file manager is still alive and well.
as for kontact, everyone seems to have their own favorite calandering app, once again not “killer”.
once again, im pointing out that these opinions may be verging on “zealotry”, not that gnome pwnz kde, which would be the same as calling myself a moron. i do know that i can install gtk and not qt, and get by just fine, which means that there isnt much in linux that uses qt and is indespensable, or so much better then the competition that everyone else basically gives up. (that being said, i could *probably* do the same with gtk and not miss it too much, although we are beginning to get some gtk# apps that dont really have an equivilent)
“By kaiwai (IP: —.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) – Posted on 2005-03-22 19:08:17
Sorry, people can handle not having Office or .Net Studio – they accept that Microsoft will never in a million years port their applications to Linux – and hence, people are willing to replace it with an OSS application, but most, like me, aren’t willing to give up applications they require for their work;”
people can handle to use something, govermnent prove it, population prove it, the # of download about openoffice, eclipse prove it
Microsoft is willing to disenfranchise all its developers by adopting a Google like operating system, where people operate terminals and Microsoft controls all of the software. They are willing to throw .net in the trash, if there is a new scheme out there to get peoples money. I’d rather be guaranteed that the technology is going to be there tomorrow, that’s one in the bag for open source.
Microsoft is a snake, and you expect me to trust them???
ROFL.
Let me get this. You have never used Beagle, but you still think Spotlight is better. You have never used Beagle, but you still think Spotlight is more stable. You have never used Beagle, but you still think Spotlight is more functional. And because you will be paying 129$ US for Tiger, Spotlight is stable.
Man, Steve is good.
“it’s normal it’s mono….
mono application speed are worst than java”
nope, muine runs fine. You can write perfectly good apps in mono, in my non-developer experience. The problem with beagle is that it is still very early code. I dunno how they’re planning to have it in shape as a core system component by next month.
mono 1.0.6. As for falling over and getting confused, the *release notes* themselves tell you this is not difficult to cause.
“When do you think Beagle will get such integration into Nautilus, Evolution and other GNOME apps, which year 2006 or 2007?”
Not entirely sure what you mean by integration, but it already searches your Evo email and your gaim IM logs. If you mean sticking search boxes all over the damn interface, that would be a *bad* idea. One is good.
what is the difference between spotlight and the google desktop? or msn desktop, longhorn search, and winfs?
functionality wise they are all similar. its all how the indexing is done. with winfs/spotlight, its part of the filesystem. whenever i/o happens, the insert/update/delete happens on the db too.
on the other hand, the high level ones listen for filesystem changes, then index based on that. it is an additional layer tacked on to the api, and will be less performant, and far more error prone. beagle does some cool stuff, but it is a gnome technology, and gnome does not have control over the various levels of linux.
what would be better is if beagle were a fd.o project and done in c or c++, so the kde guys wouldnt have to reinvent the wheel. what would be even better is if xorg, linux, and reiserfs got behind this fd.o project, and started specing some standards for “desktop linux” that would be able to sacrifice some compatibility for features that will soon be standard in every desktop os.
I use mono-1.1.4, and beagle has yet to fall over or get confused. Prior to 1.1.4, it used to consume a lot of RAM, but I have only 256MB of RAM and I have two other mono apps(muine and tomboy) running 24/7. With 1.1.4 the memory issues have almost disappeared.
actually, if you read this thread most people find beagle to be slow as molasses, suck memory and cpu cycles, buggy, or just plain not work. for a 0.7 this is acceptable, because the only one comparing a 0.7 release with a product that has just finished its final testing is you.
The way Beagle indexes is not different from the way Spotlight does so. Linux uses inotify/dnotify, at the kernel level, to propagate changes made to the filesystems in real time. In fact, this has very little to do with Beagle. Where Beagle plays a critical role is meta-data searching, sorting and presentating information. Filesystem updates are done are the kernel level and not at the desktop level as you seem to allude.
Once again, from a technical and functional perspective, there is hardly any difference between Spotlight and Beagle. The only difference will be in the way they harness available technologies and the manner they implement them.
beagle is a pain ass tool
it doesn’t have a standard metainfo format and it does
require a lot of managed wrappers to function properly.
kde 3.4 instead of beagle,have kio libs that share across every applications a comprensive metadata information.
for example you can search contents trough konqueror, kfind, kate, kwrite ecc using the same technology.
The only person who finds beagle slow is AdamW. Everyone else has either never used Beagle, or are just recounting tales from the unknown. The only problem I have witnessed with beagle is the memory issues I mentioned above, and I gave explanations for why that may be so. I need to mention that I have also had the opportunity to use spotlight, about a month ago, and it wasn’t exactly stable either. So, I talk with authority as someone who have used both products. Not someone who has been starring at screenshots on websites and feature lists.
KDE does not have anything like Beagle. Next!
> Let me get this. You have never used Beagle, but you
> still think Spotlight is better. You have never used
> Beagle, but you still think Spotlight is more stable.
> You have never used Beagle, but you still think
> Spotlight is more functional.
You have told us you needed a link to test Spotlight but you still think Beagle is better? lol
You compare something that’s is almost ready for shipping with something that’s still in alpha.
> And because you will be paying 129$ US for Tiger,
> Spotlight is stable.
Exposé and Rendez-vous were pretty rock solid when they both shipped in “Panther.” Why should I expect any less now for Spotlight?
And you do realize that the Beagle web pages reveal that the project is still in an early stage of development (alpha).
> Man, Steve is good.
PWNED again.
Ronald (IP: —.sympatico.ca):
“PWNED again.”
Impressive…
As to beagle, all I can say is that it works surprisingly well for the early stage it is still in. Though it could of course be faster, it is still fast enough to really be usable. Finally, about the memory issue, this seems to be pretty much solved with the latest release, at least it is now using a whole lot less memory than it used to. All in all a great app.
How does it compare to spotlight? I don’t have a clue, as I never used spotlight, but than again, I don’t really care, if spotlight is a great piece of software and it probably is, fine, but that doesn’t make beagle any less useful to me, does it?
Actually, I have actually tested Spotlight, about a month ago. It wasn’t exactly stable. It is only on osnews that a product that hasn’t even shipped yet is considered stable. At least, Beagle has been freely available for download for months. Tell me, where can I freely download Spotlight to see the stability changes that has happened to it since I last tested it? There is a difference between almost shipping and actually shipping. Spotlight is almost shipping. Beagle has actually shipped. Go download it and report bugs if you see any.
And I have had printer driver issues, wireless network driver issues as well as Samba issues with both Jaguar and Panther. I’m not even going to mention the hundreds of bugs in applications like Safari and mail. I don’t live in a delusional world where I expect the first releases of software to be stable. That’s like me saying Longhorn is stable because some developers already use it. Finally, getting pawned won’t stop me from exposing ignorance.
kio slaves are cool, but so is HAL/DBUS/G-V-M that gnome users have had since 2.6.
True. KDE now uses it as well.
beagle is simply stunning, if storage ever gets off the ground it will be the first real contender to spotlight/winfs in linux.
I agree, these are some pretty exciting development.
im not saying one is better then the other, im saying that theres (currently) no dm in linux that is (objectively) better then anything else, and arguing about it is dumb.
Again, I agree. I have nothing against GNOME, and in fact I used to prefer it over KDE. Now I marginally prefer KDE, but I still use some GTK2+ apps. I don’t understand what all the fuss is about having two toolkits. The important thing is that they work well together, and (to a lesser degree) that they are themeable so they look similar.
My only grip with GNOME is the new open/save dialog. I still don’t find it as intuitive as the KDE equivalent, and of course the fact that you can use kio_slaves in that dialog is a big plus (i.e. saving directly to a SSH-enabled computer with the fish:// kio_slave is pretty cool).
do beagle indexers run before the file can be accessed? how much relevency ranking work has gone into it? how relational is the beagle datamodel? how complete is the api for other apps to use? can beagle be guarenteed on a system not running gnome? does nautilus support live folders? does any other app in gnome leverage beagle? will they ever?
spotlight is kinda like beagle, except far more mature, complete, and fully integrated into the os. beagle on the other hand is a search tool, not a subsystem. it sits on top of gnome, not under x. it uses mono, which is a deal breaker for many gnome hackers, which will be a real problem from an integration perspective. kde wont use it, they will go their own way with their own incompatible model. it is beta technology on an extremely immature platform.
to be totally honest, i wasnt aware of the kernel hooks, or DBUS ipc they implemented. last time i checked, it looked like a promising version of medusa. so in a way you are right, it will eventually work in a real similar way to spotlight. not in the next month though.
do beagle indexers run before the file can be accessed?
Beagle indexes are updated in real time.
how much relevency ranking work has gone into it?
I don’t know. I am not a beagle hacker. It does a good job ranking.
how relational is the beagle datamodel?
I don’t know I am not a beagle hacker.
how complete is the api for other apps to use?
Mail clients, web browsers, file managers, instant messengers already use Beagle. APIs are never complete. They are continually evolving.
can beagle be guarenteed on a system not running gnome?
can spotlight be guaranteed on a system not running Tiger?
does nautilus support live folders?
You need expantiate on that.
does any other app in gnome leverage beagle?
Yes
will they ever?
Yes
Beagle is not an application, it’s a framework. As far as I know, Spotlight is a search tool, is beta and immature too. Products don’t get mature before releases, before they ship, overnight, or immediately after they ship. Sometimes, it takes years for a product to get mature. I wouldn’t call Spotlight any more mature than Beagle is.
> Actually, I have actually tested Spotlight, about a
> month ago. It wasn’t exactly stable.
I did also. IIRC it was very stable. Maybe your version had was from an older build.
> It is only on osnews that a product that hasn’t even
> shipped yet is considered stable.
Whining about OSNews. Right…
> At least, Beagle has been freely available for download
> for months. Tell me, where can I freely download
> Spotlight to see the stability changes that has happened
> to it since I last tested it?
Here: http://developer.apple.com/macosx/tiger/tigerkit.html
They’ll hook you up real good.
> There is a difference between almost shipping and
> actually shipping. Spotlight is almost shipping.
> Beagle has actually shipped. Go download it and report
> bugs if you see any.
Beagle is currently in alpha state for developers to hack on. It’s not ready for everyday usage. Therefore it hasn’t shipped.
Once I get UBUNTU to install properly on my P4, I will.
> And I have had printer driver issues, wireless network
> driver issues as well as Samba issues with both Jaguar
> and Panther. I’m not even going to mention the hundreds
> of bugs in applications like Safari and mail. I don’t
> live in a delusional world where I expect the first
> releases of software to be stable. That’s like me saying
> Longhorn is stable because some developers already use
> it.
I have never had trouble with MacOS X. I never met someone who had. I got kernel panics but they were always related to Flash. Those were minor bugs that were encountered rarely.
You don’t expect your first release of software to be stable? Jaguar was pretty stable when I got it. So was Panther. So was Windows XP and Visual Studio 2K2.
> Finally, getting pawned won’t stop me from exposing
> ignorance.
I don’t mind exposing people who need to test something to compare and 15 mins later they claim to have tested that something a month ago. Pathetic. Really pathetic.
I see. I need to shell out 500 bucks to test Spotlight. Nice try, pal. Steve Jobs hasn’t got in my head yet. If developers were only supposed to use Beagle, it wouldn’t be available publicly for download. You see, developers use something called CVS for developer-only stuff.
Beagle indexes are updated in real time.
real time is a relative term. theoretically, can something else modify a file before it is indexed is what i was asking. it may sound like nitpicking, but it is a fairly big deal if you want use the datastore as the primary form of navigation.
I don’t know. I am not a beagle hacker. It does a good job ranking.
i do know alot of work has gone into spotlights ranking and grouping. i do know that similar efforts were being done with dashboard, but it seems to have taken a bit of a back seat. i guess such things can alwas be optimized later.
how relational is the beagle datamodel?
I don’t know I am not a beagle hacker.
it makes a big difference to the flexibility of the queries.
how complete is the api for other apps to use?
Mail clients, web browsers, file managers, instant messengers already use Beagle. APIs are never complete. They are continually evolving.
i mean, lets say im a gnome developer. how hard is it to add a new piece of metadata for my app? how hard is it to search the beagle datastore? on spotlight its a few lines of code, as i mentioned i seem to be out of the loop on beagle.
can beagle be guarenteed on a system not running gnome?
can spotlight be guaranteed on a system not running Tiger?
there arnt 3402984023984 different dms on a mac, there is one. even gtk developers wont want to rely on something that will only be available to a portion of their user base, and there is no reason for a qt developer to assume beagle will even be installed. that means adoption gets limited to core gnome apps.
does nautilus support live folders?
You need expantiate on that.
live folders are a concept that be came up with, and mac stole. basically, instead of a folder being a directory on the disc, it is a query.
does any other app in gnome leverage beagle?
Yes
will they ever?
Yes
remember, i mean they leverage beagle, not beagle leverages them.
[i]
Beagle is not an application, it’s a framework. As far as I know, Spotlight is a search tool, is beta and immature too. Products don’t get mature before releases, before they ship, overnight, or immediately after they ship. Sometimes, it takes years for a product to get mature. I wouldn’t call Spotlight any more mature than Beagle is.</>
beagle is a framework that has the cards stacked against it ever becomming as fully adopted on linux as spotlight will on the mac. if spotlight is still in beta (which i doubt), that will change in a day or two. it is immature, but it is at least ready to ship. spotlight isnt that box in the finder, its database is accessible via api. you are right by at times, it will take technology years to mature. something that has been considered done, and is in testing for half a year, and is ready to ship in the next month is typically more mature then something that is described as an alpha-quality, developers only release, is marked 0.7, and isnt even done let alone ready to enter the testing phase.
Beagle is available and in use today.
I’m afraid not.
Heck, I have it installed.
And?
Today, I can use Beagle. Today, I cannot use Spotlight or WinFS.
Because they’re not open source projects. That doesn’t make Beagle ready or used.
And Beagle is a framework not an application.
Beagle is not a framework.
You guys are pathetic! You all speak authoritatively on subjects you are ignorant of.
Blah, blah, blah.
Neither of you have used or installed Beagle. Yet you shameless clods have the balls to compare it products that aren’t even officially availabe.
Yes I have. It isn’t ready, nor is it an application framework.
Yawn all you want, but it’s obvious from SUN, RedHat, and even Novell’s financial backing that KDE is not the choice for business.
a) Red Hat have had Gnome for years and it hasn’t made KDE go away.
b) Novell doesn’t make any money out of Gnome in any way, nor is it used on their core products of SLES.
c) Sun recommends that you use Java/Swing to develop for the JDS, they never mention using Gnome GTK+ APIs nor do they support you using them.
Nor will it be the choice for the Company I work for.
No – it will probably whatever Microsoft uses. And that means .Net, not Mono.
If Qt is so great, why didn’t evolution get rewritten for it?
Because they don’t know good development tools when they see them? Evolution is a pile of bug-ridden crap these days.
Why does Novell continue to release applications written for Gtk?
They’re applications done in the spare time of some Novell employees, but that doesn’t make them Novell applications.
Why is most of their financial efforts going into improving the GNOME desktop and not the KDE desktop?
It’s not. Novell/Suse continues to fund KDE development that are a part of successful products that make money such as Suse Linux Professional and SLES.
The list goes on…
Yawn.
I just wonder when the penny is going to drop with some brainless wonders that this corporate backing is not, has not and never will materialise.
KDE does not have anything like Beagle. Next!
Nor does Gnome. Beagle is a Mono application!
Is SQLite the proper database for Beagle? My main problem with it is that it stores everything as string. I think that Berkeley DB is a better database for a massive index. SVN devs agree. Don’t get me wrong; I’m not calling SQLite a joke. It’s a good database, and it has its uses, but I think Berkeley DB would be a better choice. I have never used SQLite for anything massive, nor have I seed it used anywhere else for anything massive.
a) Red Hat have had Gnome for years and it hasn’t made KDE go away.
when did gnome getting adopted by business mean kde going away?
b) Novell doesn’t make any money out of Gnome in any way, nor is it used on their core products of SLES.
gnome adds value to NLD, novell sells NLD, hence novell makes money off of gnome.
c) Sun recommends that you use Java/Swing to develop for the JDS, they never mention using Gnome GTK+ APIs nor do they support you using them.
you obviously arent a java developer. awt is awful, swing is god awful, and swt rocks. swt was made by the ibm supported eclipse project, which means sun wont adopt it into java, even though theres no real reason not to, other then refusing to admit that a 100% pure java gui toolkit was a dumb idea. sun will never, ever, tell anyone they should use anything but swing, even though swing is rarely, if ever the best choice.
Nor will it be the choice for the Company I work for.
No – it will probably whatever Microsoft uses. And that means .Net, not Mono.
well, turns out you arnt a .net developer either. .net is the microsoft implementation of the cli standard, mono is miguels implementation. i seriously doubt your company will jump on the .net bandwagon for awhile though, if software houses used what ms did, there would be massive rewrites every year as ms throws their old way of doing things out the window.
Because they don’t know good development tools when they see them? Evolution is a pile of bug-ridden crap these days.
evolution is also the product that allows for linux to talk to exchange servers, one of the big selling points for the business.
They’re applications done in the spare time of some Novell employees, but that doesn’t make them Novell applications.
ROFL!
“The most popular groupware client for Linux, Novell® Evolution™ integrates e-mail, calendaring, tasks and contact management in one easy-to-use application. As part of Novell Linux Desktop, Novell Evolution integrates smoothly with other applications and communications tools and connects to corporate communications architectures including Novell GroupWise® and Microsoft Exchange.”
(http://www.novell.com/products/desktop/features/evolution.html)
i think you better let them know thats not a novell app, one of their employees seem to be shamelessly branding his pet project as a novell product. i mean jeez, its not like mono which is OBVIOUSLY not a novell product
“Mono is a platform for running and developing modern applications, based on the ECMA/ISO Standards. Mono can run existing programs targeting the .NET or Java frameworks.
Mono is an open source effort led by Novell and is the foundation for many new applications”
(http://www.mono-project.com/Main_Page)
ah nuts, someones been messing with the wiki. definately have to let them know novell isnt really connected to the work done by miguel on his free time. should i keep going?
unlike the borderline moronic userbase of kde and gnome, novell doesnt seem to be treating an api like a religion, having highly skilled gnome and kde hackers on the payroll.
It’s not. Novell/Suse continues to fund KDE development that are a part of successful products that make money such as Suse Linux Professional and SLES.
well yeah, it all makes sense now. you see, kde and gnome are like two different countries on a battlefield. third parties pledge support to one or the other, based on the crazed ravings of the various priests that will explain why theirs is the one true path to enlightenment.
either that, OR novell is supporting both, to be able to better address the desires of their clients, and give themselves as broad a market as possible. nah… yours sounds much more feasable.
I just wonder when the penny is going to drop with some brainless wonders that this corporate backing is not, has not and never will materialise.
yeah, so we ignore sun (the largest contributer to the foundation), novell, redhat… oh hell, we arnt paying attention to reality anyways, lets just ignore that gnome even exists! it seems to fill you with some sort of rage, maybe you were attacked by a gnome as a child, or perhaps big feet simply scare you. regardless, being in touch with reality seems to be low on your list of priorities, while trashing something you know nothing about is high up there.
———————–
man, i dont know if its just me, but the gnome/kde trollfest seems more and more childish every day.
if i’m not mistaken, the version of GTK+ in CVS HEAD which is due to be released in August already uses cairo to do most of it’s drawing.
right again!
http://www.gnome.org/projects/beagle/
OBVIOUSLY has NOTHING to do with gnome.
when did gnome getting adopted by business mean kde going away?
Errrr, you’ve implied it. Nice try
.
gnome adds value to NLD, novell sells NLD, hence novell makes money off of gnome.
So it doesn’t make money off Gnome then?
you obviously arent a java developer.
Wrong.
awt is awful, swing is god awful, and swt rocks. swt was made by the ibm supported eclipse project, which means sun wont adopt it into java, even though theres no real reason not to, other then refusing to admit that a 100% pure java gui toolkit was a dumb idea.
Meaningless in the context I’ve given. Was there a point here?
sun will never, ever, tell anyone they should use anything but swing, even though swing is rarely, if ever the best choice.
Sun are a very good Gnome citizen then, aren’t they?
well, turns out you arnt a .net developer either.
Wrong again.
.net is the microsoft implementation of the cli standard
No it isn’t. .Net is a heck of a lot more then a CLI implementation.
i seriously doubt your company will jump on the .net bandwagon for awhile though, if software houses used what ms did, there would be massive rewrites every year as ms throws their old way of doing things out the window.
Nope, Microsoft has always put in strong backwards compatibility. .Net is the first time they’ve really, really broken away.
i think you better let them know thats not a novell app, one of their employees seem to be shamelessly branding his pet project as a novell product.
That’s blurb from a web site. It doesn’t translate into usage by ordinary Novell employees, and they’re actually having trouble getting people to adopt the NLD internally – hence the adoption of Open Office on Windows and the porting of Evolution to Windows.
i mean jeez, its not like mono which is OBVIOUSLY not a novell product
No it isn’t a Novell product. It’s a Novell sponsored project.
third parties pledge support to one or the other, based on the crazed ravings of the various priests that will explain why theirs is the one true path to enlightenment.
Wow.
either that, OR novell is supporting both, to be able to better address the desires of their clients, and give themselves as broad a market as possible. nah… yours sounds much more feasable.
You could have just said that to start off with
. I don’t know what you think mine is.
yeah, so we ignore sun (the largest contributer to the foundation), novell, redhat… oh hell, we arnt paying attention to reality anyways, lets just ignore that gnome even exists!
Well yer – it hasn’t made any difference over the past five years
.
it seems to fill you with some sort of rage, maybe you were attacked by a gnome as a child, or perhaps big feet simply scare you. regardless, being in touch with reality seems to be low on your list of priorities, while trashing something you know nothing about is high up there.
I hate to point out the obvious, but this all started with a posting of yours some way back
.
man, i dont know if its just me, but the gnome/kde trollfest seems more and more childish every day.
What, like your posts? Nice try
.