“In the fight for Web services dominance, the scuffle has barely begun and vendors are still scrambling for places in the ring. Although all the initiatives are still relatively young, IBM and Microsoft are eager to be the top Web services heavyweights. Each is heavily touting its offerings to companies interested in moving further toward e-commerce integration.” Read the article at Yahoo!News. The article does not include any information about SunONE though.
IBM’s WebSphere vs. Microsoft’s .NET – Who’s Winning?
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
.NET’s biggest competitor is Sun ONE, but IBM Websphere. Both Microsoft and Sun are placing a lot of marketing money behind their initiatives, but IBM isn’t.
In terms of competitors, Gates identified IBM and the “Linux-type software community” as being at the top of the list. IBM Global Services in particular is a good long-term competitor, he said.
I would have to say that IBM is winning today. .NET is still new and just coming off the blocks. IBM has complete solutions and armies of consultants to implement them.
IBM has seen the light, Sun hasn’t. IBM and Microsoft teamed up to do web services without Sun as they didn’t want Sun to slow things down. And IBM has realized Linux is far more interesting than Java.
#m
And IBM has realized Linux is far more interesting than Java.
Actually, IBM is doing a lot with both technologies.
Did Java pick on you as a kid or something? I’m just wondering why you have such a rancorous attitude towards it.
Definetly .NET. Just compare the time it takes to create a webservice in VS.NET & Websphere and you’ll know what i mean.
Michael do you think that MS doesn’t have “complete solutions” ? and cut the crap about .NET beeing new….i’ve been creating web services since .NET beta 1.
Yep, it took 8 months of reading all the marketing stuff, after which I still didn’t understand what .NET was. Only after reading VC++.NET – Step by Step from Microsoft press this week did I finally figure out what .NET is.
So, what is it?
Think of clients and servers. Now think of an API and libraries, that is, a Framework, for allowing clients to request objects from Servers (emphasis on objects, not just data). Clients can be written in any language (managed C++, C#, VisualBasic etc), and server apps can be written in any language. The applications are compiled into a MS Intermideate Language (akin to Java bytecode) with Common Runtime Libraries, and use a MS JIT compiler. Thats it.
What is Managed C++? Well, since the MSIL assembly can also be created by C# and Visual Basic, managed C++.NET is a subset of C with Microsoft extensions. Visual Basic doesn’t have pointers to functions and advanced operator overloading, neither does managed C++. To accomplish similar tasks, you need to hack around managed C++ with a new API. Oh yes, it also has a garbage collector.
All of this is .NET – a set of API’s to allow clients to request objects from servers. No more, no less.
Tangent – Oracle have the most to fear from .NET, as well as IBM and SUN.
um oracle just released a bunc of stuff on developing >NET on oracle. Sorry but unless .NET works for big IRON java doesnt have anything to worry about.
Finally someone managed to explain clearly what .Net is ! So basically it’s a persistent remote object server with a Java like framework. You can get the same thing with Java and a J2EE server.
Or you can also do the same with PHP and the SRM application server (still beta right now).
It is all and well that these three competitors battle it out, but for anyone of them to “win” so to speak, the services that are created suing them has to bring in revenue in one way or another. Lowering maintaince costs and boosting effeciency at a company, selling more books at amazon, devlivering more pr0n.
The real question is: “How can I make money with <SUN/IBM/M$>?”
And for what .NET is: M$ next gen framework, which you can develop with. It is not limited to the web in any way, it is great to quickly code working apps and have easy to use DB connections etc etc. My guess is that it is the first taste of Longhorn. It is also the hardest to market product for a long time. It is beyond me how they could create something so useful and explain it so confusingly that seasond software engineers have trouble getting it from day 1.
Java has cost the software development industry many billions of dollars in waste. And it continues to do so. The whole dotcom mess was programmed in Java as it promised a slap-it-together mentality that was compatible with “ship crap, ship it early, ship it often”.
Java may also have cost the United States its software industry.
Before all the hype that Java makes it possible for mediocre programmers to develop applications, software developers actually worked hard at being good programmers. Not any more.
We find more and more IT infrastructure outsourced to other countries. And many people out of jobs in this country. Java is the one key factor in the whole dotcom mess. And it is one giant factor in the outsourcing movement.
I’ve been working with the MySQL code these days. And it is refreshing to see something written in C (and some basic C++). The developer has a chance to make the code faster, smaller, more robust.
Java is all about CASE and hiding actual code from the developer by generating everything from UML.
Java is the COBOL of today.
In the end, Java dehumanizes the programmer.
#m
First, I have couple of questions. What is the relationship between .NET, J2EE and OSNEWS site? Why are we seeing .NET and J2EE related news in Operating Systems related news site?
Second, how can you argue about the success of the .NET or J2EE on the server side ALTOUGH THERE IS NO .NET SERVER RELEASED YET? MS released “nearly” completed version of its .NET server after ONE YEAR DELAY last week.
I am copying and pasting the following section from the previous “Just another Java bashing from Michael.” Since this my view related with J2EE and .NET:
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– On mobile field, J2ME is a big success already. All the major phone producers are backing Java based mobiles. There will be 100 MILLION J2ME phones at the end of this year. Nokia, Siemens, Sony- Ericson, Motorola etc. all are backing Java. Java, even SENDO, the MS backer, in the end, licenced “Tao Group’s intent® multimedia Java platform to be available on the Z100 Multimedia Smartphone, which uses Microsoft® Windows® Powered Smartphone.” Here is the link:
http://www.sendo.co.uk/news/newsitem.asp?ID=53
Go to any midlet site and check out how many and what type of midlets emerged for Java phones already:
http://www.midlet.org
On the PDA field, Linux based Sharp Zaurus which gives emphasis on Java is already a great success, and there is 2 all Java PDAs I already know exists. One of them is already announced on this site yesterday. Take a look at the other baby here:
http://www.infosync.no/ news/2002/n/2040.html
– On web services field, check out how many web services implementations are available for Java (open/ closed sourced): Here is the link:
http://www.javaskyline.com/webservices
Do not be surprised to see more than 50 bullets there.
– On application server field, check again how many J2EE based application servers (again open/closed sourced) here:
http://www.javaskyline.com/serv.html
All the major IT firms except for the MS, such as: Sun, IBM, Oracle, Fujitsu, HP, Macromedia, Sybase, BEA systems etc. already rolled the dice and chosen J2EE. ALL are based on JAVA. There are incredibly successful open source J2EE servers such as JBoss, OpenEJB etc, which work on every platform including Unix, Solaris, Linux, Windows, MacOSX. It took their years to perfect their technologies. IBM’s WebSphere for instance reached something like version 6.0? They are all tested, robust products, being used by many firms already. .NET is new. It needs at least 3 years to be tested and become robust. Show me one application server written on .NET apart from MSs’.
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And this is reply to today’s Java bashing from Michael:
“Java has cost the software development industry many billions of dollars in waste. And it continues to do so.”
Michael, how can a free language can cost billions of dollars waste? What dotcom mess was programmed with Java?
“Java may also have cost the United States its software industry.”
Oh yeah! Not only that, Java can make reds to rule the universe Mr. Carthy. And it couses breath stench and small black dots on the skin of the users. Also, the hunger in Etiopia is directly related with the existance of Java.
“Before all the hype that Java makes it possible for mediocre programmers to develop applications, software developers actually worked hard at being good programmers. Not any more.”
First of all, it is a very selfish comment, second it is not true. So, maybe we should stayed in C, or better ASM according to you. In this way, we should have to work more to be good programmers. And it is not true, since, every language has its own place. Asm, C, C++, Java, Lisp etc are all different languages suited for different tasks. Java is a language built on virtual machine technology. .NET languages are the same thing, built on CLI.
“We find more and more IT infrastructure outsourced to other countries. And many people out of jobs in this country. Java is the one key factor in the whole dotcom mess. And it is one giant factor in the outsourcing movement.”
Outsourcing works dear. This is why the profit hungry capitalist firms in US and in Europe are practising it. Do you think Russians, Indians, Chinese etc. are able to code only in Java?
“I’ve been working with the MySQL code these days. And it is refreshing to see something written in C (and some basic C++). The developer has a chance to make the code faster, smaller, more robust.”
MySQL is an open source DBMS, one of the technologies Billy_the_McCarty is referring to as a communist technology.
“Java is all about CASE and hiding actual code from the developer by generating everything from UML.”
Java is not about Case? Are you sure that you are a developer? There are case tools for Java, yes. There are also case tools for C, C++ etc also.
“Java is the COBOL of today.”
Yes, the COBOL was great for its date.
“Java dehumanizes the programmer.”
Yes sir. I will return to my base as soon as possible as a respectful android, Sun, sir. I have a kin5a %ache ^^ in my f jkfl jkfkjks n zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt.
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Well, Michael, as a friend, and a psychologist, I suggest you to read lots of lots of Philip K. Dick.
If you choose .Net you are bound to the Windows platform.
This concerns stability, scalability and the hardware.
All of our customers (I work for a large software company) follow one simple rule: No Windows on the server for missioncritical applications.
.Net has its market in the small and home business, but not in the large enterprise business.
That was quite a post. I do love Philip K. Dick’s books. But also those by many others, from Poul Andersen to Alfred Bester to Bruce Sterling to John Varley to Vernor Vinge.
I’m giving Java its due. Today is its heyday. Yes, there are quite a few firms duking it out for the J2EE crown. Pick your J2EE vendor carefully as switching costs are high. And if you go with a top-tier vendor, expect poor support, lots of bugs, and high prices.
Yes, mobile phone makers chose Java vs. reception, quality, and price. And they are hurting bad right now.
Give Microsoft three full product cycles on .NET and then we’ll see how things look. That puts us right about 2005 with Longhorn shipping.
You are absolutely right that .NET is barely out the door and the .NET server is not even shipping yet.
Java/J2EE is just the Netscape of today. A fat arrogant technology with a big lead on the world’s most relentless, efficient and ruthless predator.
Good luck.
#m
“That puts us right about 2005 with Longhorn shipping.”
hmmmm!
Well, since these series of posts are clearly offtopic, I think Eugenia should moderate the entire thread down. However, in response to Michael’s benighted diatribe on Java, I offer the following.
Java has cost the software development industry many billions of dollars in waste.
That is probably the most uninformed drivel I have seen you utter. Linux had more to do with the .com bubble than Java did, and neither of them had as much to do with it as the stock market, greed, and simple economics.
The whole dotcom mess was programmed in Java as it promised a slap-it-together mentality that was compatible with “ship crap, ship it early, ship it often”.
Ha ha ha ha. Stop! You’re making me cry I’m laughing so hard. Why don’t you take a history lesson before you start spewing forth such flapdoodle. Also, the “ship crap, ship it early and ship it often” motto is more in line with what Microsoft practices than Sun.
Before all the hype that Java makes it possible for mediocre programmers to develop applications, software developers actually worked hard at being good programmers. Not any more.
I think you have Java confused with Visual Basic.
We find more and more IT infrastructure outsourced to other countries.
Again, this has nothing to do with Java and everything to do with economics. My company, and every company I’ve worked for during the last 10 years, has developers in India. Why? Because they are damn smart and they are damn cheap. It is for no other reason than that. In fact, every group from India I’ve worked with, both while living in the US and while living in India, programmed is Visual C++. So, according to your flawed logic, C++ is the cause of the US economy’s demise, not Java. Also, your god Microsoft is probably the larges supporter of increasing the number of H1 visas in the US. Why? So they can hire more foreign developers and pay them less.
And many people out of jobs in this country. Java is the one key factor in the whole dotcom mess. And it is one giant factor in the outsourcing movement.
My only response is to slowly shake my head in utter amazement. Where do you come up with this nonsense?
I’ve been working with the MySQL code these days. And it is refreshing to see something written in C (and some basic C++). The developer has a chance to make the code faster, smaller, more robust.
Hmm, I love C and C++ as languages too. But, web apps using MySQL are outstanding when using Java servlets hooking into a MySQL database. They are mediocre when using C to create CGI apps.
Java is all about CASE and hiding actual code from the developer by generating everything from UML.
What on Earth are you talking about? Many people use UML to chart apps written in other languages as well. All UML does for you is lets a team of developers all write code with the same goals in mind. This is a good thing as opposed to thinking it up as you go along. It’s called planning. I don’t know what tools you write code with that “hide” everything behind UML, but I use either vim or SlickEdit when programming in any language. The code is all there; even for Java.
Java is the COBOL of today.
No, I think COBOL is the COBOL of today. Do you even know what COBOL looks like or what it is for? This was an invalid comparison.
In the end, Java dehumanizes the programmer.
I’ve never had Java dehumanize me in the end. At least not while I’ve had my strength.
So what’s the problem? Couldn’t you figure out how to program Java and you’re upset? Did CLASSPATH and packages thwart your efforts to learn Java? Are you even a programmer? I mean, you admitted in one of your previous posts that you hadn’t looked at Java for a few years. So, if you haven’t even looked at it and don’t know, obviously, thing one about it, then why don’t you keep your rancorous, ignorant tirades to yourself.
What’s web service? Everyone throws around this buzz word, but someone please define what a web service is.
I’m giving Java its due.
No you are not. In order to give something its due, you must understand it and then acknowledge its strong points. Since you haven’t done either, you can’t give it its due.
Today is its heyday. Yes, there are quite a few firms duking it out for the J2EE crown. Pick your J2EE vendor carefully as switching costs are high. And if you go with a top-tier vendor, expect poor support, lots of bugs, and high prices.
You don’t have to pick a vendor if you use free tools. However, large companies have to, or rather choose to, pick a vendor for absolutely everything. The problems you rant about are consistant problems across the board; whether you are picking a vendor for your OS, applications, kitchen supplies, janitorial needs, heating and air-conditioning maintanence, bottled water, etc. That’s just what large companies do and it’s a fact of doing business for them. In other words; a non-issue.
Yes, mobile phone makers chose Java vs. reception, quality, and price. And they are hurting bad right now.
No they aren’t! What does Java have to do with reception? Absolutely nothing.
In Japan, where nearly every phone now is Java enabled, things are booming and their reception is far superior to ours because their cells are set up with the goal of perfect reception in mind rather than maximizing profits by skimping on quality as we do in the US. That is a result of greed and not related to Java.
Another thing to note is that due to most of Japan’s cell phones being Java enabled, many companies are making good money selling Java apps for those phones. A new market has been opened and people are making money because of Java. That is a good thing and goes directly against your claims that Java causes world calamities.
Give Microsoft three full product cycles on .NET and then we’ll see how things look. That puts us right about 2005 with Longhorn shipping.
Or, you can write Java apps today and begin making money now.
Java/J2EE is just the Netscape of today. A fat arrogant technology with a big lead on the world’s most relentless, efficient and ruthless predator.
Oh, and I suppose .NET isn’t fat and arrogant. Believe me, .NET is FAT and MS is synonymous with arrogance. I fail to see your point.
Java is the COBOL of today.
Java should be so lucky. In COBOL’s day, COBOL was pervasive in business computing. People today think FORTRAN and COBOL code looks ugly and is worthless, but the majority of legacy code (probably like 80%) is written in these two languages. I don’t think we’ll ever see a time when Java code is that entrenched in legacy applications.
On the .NET CLR note, I hope that Sun writes a JVM which actually does what the CLR does…compile code once and leave the compiled versions to run the rest of the time. This would probably do a lot towards taking care of Java performance issues. JIT most definately helps, but why should the system do that everytime a library/program is executed?
Basically, a web service is a server side program that you use remotely. The web service tells the client how to built the UI via XML. There is all kinds of architecture involved with exactly how this works which is all part of the web service architure. The difference between J2EE and .NET web services is thier implimentation and the architecuture of the two. Web services with J2EE is more complex and robust. .NET is simpler and apparently easier for smaller projects.
You don’t need Windows.NET to run web services. You can install the framework on Windows 2000 too.
This is why I say I’m giving Java its due.
Because .NET is slow and bloated and barely works right now when it comes to writing client applications. This is the latest .NET running some simple UI code.
Java takes 30% to 100% more memory, but it runs more smoothly than .NET. The .NET is C# (i.e. managed code).
This is why I say to that it will take Microsoft until .NET 3.X to get it right.
Sometimes copying stuff from Java is just a dumb idea. Having all the fancy bytecode/il stuff is just a waste of time. It doesn’t solve any useful problem.
It was great to see what should have been a 300K Windows program taking 29MB though. It showed me the big reason of why Longhorn wont be until 2005… it’s going to take a long time to cook .NET until it tastes better.
#m