Submitted by Why is it that the average computer user still chooses to spend hundreds of dollars on Windows or Mac when there are countless Linux alternatives that they could download, install and make use of completely free of charge? Some answers here.
Five Things the Linux Community Doesn’t Get About Joe User
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Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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Very nicely said. The reality is, XP or even Win2k are not bad OSes. They work — in contrast to Win95/98/ME. And this, along with the vast selection of distros that confuse users, works against further Linux adoption.
They are not bad OSes, but I think there’s more to “user inertia” than the quality of MS operating systems. Most Windows users *I* know are either annoyed by their systems (often not understanding that they are partially responsible by installing and running all kinds of crapware) or they’re neutral about them. I don’t often hear users say that they like Windows…
I think user inertia is due mostly to the fact that most people would rather deal with the devil they know. It’s not a completely rational feeling, and sometimes it makes people put up with some situations where a switch would be a positive thing. The truth however is that we, as a species, have a tendency to stay in the “comfort” zone.
I use Windows every day at work. Of course it’s usable – but so would a pre-configured Ubuntu system be.
I personally found the article to be rather light on substance. The other points are basically a re-run the same old criticism of Linux we’ve all heard a hundred times before, most of it missing the mark IMO. Having “hundreds of distro” is irrelevant when you only have a handful that dominate the mindshare. Among desktop distros, Ubuntu has clearly stolen the limelight. Good or bad, it at least represents a clear, attractive brand for potential users.
The third point, about hardware packaging mentioning Linux support, is certainly a valid one, however there’s little the Linux community can do about it. So while it may be an element slowing down Linux adoption (the impact of which is debatable), to imply that this is something that the “Linux community doesn’t understand about the average computer user” is fallacious, and in my opinion disingenuous. To suggest this I think betrays that the author is not making a neutral assessment, but had a negative predisposition against Linux.
That, or he can’t remember the basic premise of his article. Either way one needs to take this point with a big grain of salt, and encourage distro makers to make their hardware databases even more complete (and accessible).
Point #4 is also highly debatable, not because I think everyone should use the CLI (I don’t), but because most users *don’t* have to use the CLI, and the only time they might have to (depending on the distro) they get precise directions on how to do it.
In fact, it’s *easier* to give directions (printed, on the web, or even on the phone) on how to fix specific items using the CLI rather than the GUI. I do agree with him, however, that the CLI provokes irrational fear in many users, which is why I’m all for GUI tools for simple PC administration.
Point #5 is just a vague generalization. While I’m certain that Linux’ geeky reputation has probably slowed down its adoption somewhat, one has to remember that Operating Systems as a whole (i.e. Windows included) are all geeky by nature. I think other factors (basically no pre-installed system from a major OEM, MS’s multi-million dollar marketing campaigns) play a much greater role in keeping Linux’s growth modest. Fortunately, the recent Dell/Ubuntu deal will likely level the playing field a little…
In fact, it’s *easier* to give directions (printed, on the web, or even on the phone) on how to fix specific items using the CLI rather than the GUI. I do agree with him, however, that the CLI provokes irrational fear in many users, which is why I’m all for GUI tools for simple PC administration.
Exactly cutting and pasting a command line from a webpage is a lot easier than following a lot of incomprehensible instructions how to navigate a GUI to do want you want. The nice thing about modern Linux distributions is you have the choice of doing it both ways.
Yep freedom of choice again.
>In fact, it’s *easier* to give directions (printed, on the web, or even on the phone) on how to fix specific items using the CLI rather than the GUI.
Not always though: I remember to have to explain over the phone to change the content of a file to someone, and there was only vi available, and the guy doesn’t know vi: definitely not fun!
Not really a GUI vs CLI issue: would it have been any easier if he had a GUI, but only gvim available?
True, although you’d really only need to tell him about:
– Pressing “i” to edit
– Using arrow keys to navigate
– Pressing ESC to return to command mode (the hardest part)
– Entering “:wq” to save and quit
Some people call this variety and the power of choice. The latter is based on knowledge, knowledge of the user. Choice isn’t a bad thing. The lack of choice lead to Linux, because nobody likes the dictatorship of Windows or MacOS.
>The reality is, XP or even Win2k are not bad OSes.
Well, depends compared to what, compared Win95, sure they are pretty good but this doesn’t say a lot..
The big glaring problem for Windows is the security, here, it’s quite poor..
Most people blame the virus instead of blaming also Microsoft: with a Unix like security mechanism, many virus wouldn’t work (that said Unix security need to be improved with a sandbox environment for untrusted software IMHO).
> The big glaring problem for Windows is the security,
> here, it’s quite poor..
Absolutely untrue.
If you create an account with administrator privileges and run everything from that, then, yes, security is poor. Security would be poor on Linux, too, if you ran everything as root.
Don’t blame the OS for the way that people set it up.
>Don’t blame the OS for the way that people set it up.
Sorry, but that’s false: when you use an unprivileged account on Windows, you have usually many problems: applications not running, not being able to renew your DHCP lease, etc.
Even some applications (a game I don’t remember the name) made by *Microsoft itself* doesn’t work correctly under non-privileged account.
Most Linux distributions at installation ask you to create an account which has not the root privilege whereas in Windows XP by default the account you create have elevated privilege.
Sure you can configure even an OpenBSD to leave it open to all kinds of abuse, but Microsoft (at least until Vista) has really done a poor job on this part.
You’re forgetting about the overwhelming amount of malware/spyware out there that targets Windows exclusively. If only for that, Linux *is* much more secure than Windows.
“””
You’re forgetting about the overwhelming amount of malware/spyware out there that targets Windows exclusively. If only for that, Linux *is* much more secure than Windows.
“””
Yes. Say we are both wearing bullet-proof kevlar vests and yours is just as resistant to bullets as mine.
But you are in the middle of a war zone, and I am in my home.
Wouldn’t you still rather be where I am?
Of course, there are some who would argue that if only there were more people in my home we would be just as insecure.
Indeed. It doesn’t matter if malware could *potentially* exit for Linux/OSX…the fact is that they don’t exist right now, and therefore do not represent an actual threat.
> The big glaring problem for Windows is the security,
> here, it’s quite poor..
Absolutely untrue.
If you create an account with administrator privileges and run everything from that, then, yes, security is poor. Security would be poor on Linux, too, if you ran everything as root.
Don’t blame the OS for the way that people set it up.
A major misconception is that Linux, “wants,” the idiots that are happy with Windows. To a rather sizeable part of the non-Windows world, the Windows world can go get stuffed like a turkey.
Admitedly, this is more common on a per-system basis, Ubuntu developers really do want to ween Windows users off their system, but other communities don’t want Windows users to come in and lower the average intelligence of the community by moroning-up all the forums and message boards.
Calling, “the Linux community,” is just wrong, there is no such thing. There is the Gentoo community, the Debian community, the Fedora community, but it is a stretch to group them all together as having the same goals or interests, if they really did share those, they wouldn’t have multiple distributions.
Yup, agreed. The problem I see with Linux is the modern attempt to “dumb it down” to suit your average dumba$$ Windows user. Sorry, they’ll still be dumba$$es no matter what platform they’re using. I’d rather them still using Windows, than forcing us users that have brains and are willing to learn to put up with dumbed down Linux distributions.
GUI tools are fine, don’t get me wrong, but having a Linux system that wipes your a$$ for the average joe blow Windows user who couldn’t probably argue their way out of paper bag is just wrong. If you want to use a system, get off your a$$ and learn, don’t sit their and cry “but it’s too hard, I want it easy like Windows is!”.
The truth is, Windows isn’t easy to administer either, which is why so many Windows installations are screwed, and why viruses, trojans and worms are running rampant. This tells me something plain and clear:
The majority of people using a computer these days shouldn’t be. Plain and simple. I work in the support industry, I see it, day in and day out – the vast majority of people using computers are basically computer illiterate, with no intentions of learning even the basics of running a computer. They’re task orientated puppet monkeys, when the scripted work route goes wrong, they’re lost.
I know this makes me sound like an elitist, but would you really let an incompetent, untrained driver drive a car? Sure, a computer and operating system isn’t going to kill anyone, but it’s the principle that matters.
Dave
PS OK, you can call me an elitist bastard
Your and elitist bastard .. yay .. a free insult 🙂 That said i hear what your saying, i work in support and see the exact same things every day, but you know what .. thats the way of the world, its choice man, these users are free to use what they like and any damn way the want to, they cant be bothered to learn SA skills then to be honest im too tired these days to even care .. id rather expend energy with those who want to learn. To use the car analogy, sure we train people before they are allowed to use a car .. but hey they are not all Nigel Mansel’s, ive seen my fair share of people on the road who should not be ….
Suppose to sum my point up, its different strokes for differnet folks matey ! thats how it is and how it will always be … Linux just has to get used to it …
> Your and elitist bastard .. yay .. a free insult 🙂
I agree with you, this Linux junkie is a stinky simpleton (1).
(1) Free insult released under the GPL license.
That’s fine. If anything, Linux should remain the OS for hardcore geeks. If it just tries to be like Windows so it can be Linux for the masses, then it will end up being a second-hand, cheap knock-off of Windows instead of anything worthwhile in its own right.
At some point, somebody has to pick a direction for Linux that doesn’t involve making it Windows/Mac OS X style user friendly. I say that we try to play on Linux’s existing strengths in terms of power and “user-friendliness” (for people who already know what they’re doing) and forget HIGs and 3d desktops.
That’s fine. If anything, Linux should remain the OS for hardcore geeks. If it just tries to be like Windows so it can be Linux for the masses, then it will end up being a second-hand, cheap knock-off of Windows instead of anything worthwhile in its own right.
Sure, if you’re content letting the masses who don’t know any better let themselves get locked in to proprietary formats and licensing schemes, with the result that the whole world, including you and your beloved free software geek elite, have to deal with the consequences….
There’s more reasons to Linux and free software’s existence than simply creating a geek’s paradise while the rest of the world continues to suffer under proprietary software monopolies.
Edited 2007-05-22 12:01 UTC
You forget that Ubuntu *IS* targetting the average Joe. Even if you, gentoo user, don’t want to. So yes, there are several points of view inside Linux itself. Those who don’t want stupid people to use it, and others who want to open it to everybody.
The real dumbass is you. I’ll tell you why. According to you, some one who doesn’t use Linux is stupid? Go tell a physician, a doctor they’re stupid, do you know what he’s going to tell you? He’s gonna ask you if you know how to operate a heart. If you say “No”, I hope he says you’re a stupid simpleton. Got the picture?
I’m not trying to do open heart surgery. That’s his point. People who want to use a computer have an obligation to learn at least the basics.
Thats the thing, the basics are, find the power button, press it, find icon for browser, email, Itunes, click them.. switch off when done … most users have that in the bag, its all the other stuff that comes after thats the tricky part …. I suppose its all about perception as to what users are supposed to know !
Good thing Linux can already do all of that! 😉
Edited 2007-05-22 02:10
“Good thing Linux can already do all of that! 😉 ”
Until you want to upgrade any of your hardware. After that, good luck pouring over message boards as to why your machine won’t even boot, or how to manually reconfigure X, etc.
This won’t happen if you buy supported hardware – you know, like you would do if you had a Mac. If you do, you’ll find it *easier* than in Windows (especially since you don’t have to reactivate your Windows install just to make sure you’re not an evil pirate).
You’re not using a good argument. You’re just bashing windows for the sake of doing it. Linux Distributions “do not do that”. Some don’t have the codecs, some might not support some video card, etc.
People DOESN’T CARE about Patents, and stuff like that. My Mom wants to turn her box on and be with it.
She could work under linux, but it’s much easier to work under OS X.
A bold claim, and yet I don’t see you coming up with any counter-arguments…
No, I’m not. I’m countering those who bash Linux just for the sake of doing it – that’s quite different.
Actually, you can install win32 codecs on most distributions (including the most popular, Ubuntu). You’ll be able to do this 100% legally with CNR, too.
As far as video cards go, if it’s supported in one distro it’s usually supported by all. You should learn more about Linux before bashing it.
Lawyers do, apparently.
Your mom can do what she wants with her box, I really don’t want to know about it…
Well, does she have to install and configure OSX, or does it come pre-configured? Don’t compare apples and oranges, please. Wait until the Dellbuntu boxes are available, and then we can make an honest comparison.
I’m not sure why, they expect it to work, reliably and most of the time, just like any other tool. In this respect, Linux is no better than Windows, as users perceive it to be more work to setup and maintain a Linux box than a Windows box, more is expected of the user, and that is a fact, even if it actually takes no more, or less work. Perception is the key. Most people who own cars don’t know too much about how it operates, it is enough that thye know how to USE it, and take it to a shop when it breaks down. Why do computers have to be different?
Why do computers have to be different?
They don’t. The only difference is that you wouldn’t accept paying the same price per hour for people fixing your computer as you pay for someone fixing your car.
Since computer software is even more complex than a car, and you’re likely to add/change parts more often, this would probably happen monthly or even weekly. On top of that come the times you screw something up, like deleting important data.
I’m not sure why, they expect it to work, reliably and most of the time, just like any other tool. In this respect, Linux is no better than Windows, as users perceive it to be more work to setup and maintain a Linux box than a Windows box, more is expected of the user, and that is a fact, even if it actually takes no more, or less work.
Sorry, but this is fiction. A preinstalled (whether by the vendor or a friend), well-maintained Linux distro should be much less work than a preinstalled, well-maintained Windows installation, because with Windows you’d have to:
(a) run a virus checker (b) run a spyware and/or adware checker (c) run a defragmenter (d) download Windows updates (e) search for updates for other software (f) download those one by one.
On Linux, these mostly don’t exist (you can get virus checkers but (a) some of them are intended for use on servers, to get rid of Windows viruses on behalf of clients; and (b) to my knowledge no-one has ever seen a Linux virus that can destroy files in more than one directory): for our purposes (a-c) don’t, and if they did you can bet your bottom dollar that user-friendly distros would set up a cron job to run them at appropriate times.
As for (d-f), the number of packages in a “big” distro is so large that it is getting increasingly difficult to justify the old complaint about
$ ./configure && make && make install
even though I still maintain that this is NOT hard, if it works. And the only software I have encountered recently that didn’t was old, unmaintained, and unlikely to be used by newbies anyway. And you can often find software these days that works fine on your distro precompiled and sitting on $RANDOMVENDOR’s website.
The chances are, therefore, that even if you DO have to search for software and download it separately, you’re going to have to do it a lot less than you would do it for Windows.
Most people who own cars don’t know too much about how it operates, it is enough that thye know how to USE it, and take it to a shop when it breaks down. Why do computers have to be different?
Computers ARE different. They are what you might call a “meta-thing” (or better a “meta-tool”). A computer can be a games machine one minute, a calculator the next, a word processor the next, and so on. Thus even just learning to use a computer is an order of magnitude or two harder than learning to drive a car.
The problem with Windows in this respect is not that it makes computers easy to use. It is that it makes it impossible to fix even trivial cock-ups or errors without going through the whole “reboot-reinstall” rigmarole. They probably got this idea from tv’s, etc., where once you had to get in and replace vacuum tubes, then they moved to replacing circuit boards, and now I should think they probably just replace the whole thing. Again, the problem is that the act of replacing a tv (barring such details as placing a time for pickup, etc.) takes a lot less time than repairing it, whereas for an OS installation, (ironically, particularly so in Windows), the reverse is often the case.
Edited 2007-05-22 09:35
Very good post. About the first part, though. GP talks about how;
users perceive it to be more work to setup and maintain a Linux box than a Windows box, […] even if it actually takes no more, or less work.
I think he’s right in this, and I don’t see any evidence of you really disagreeing in your post. Most people perceive Linux boxes to be harder to run, even though you and I know it’s far easier to install and keep a system up to date with a good package manager than by hunting for downloads on the web, and that editing a few simple config files is less painfull than dealing with malware, spyware and the registry. To some degree I believe it’s a CLI vs GUI thing. When something is console based, it automatically becomes impossible to deal with in Joe User’s eyes.
Like GP said; Perception is the key.
“Sorry, but this is fiction. A preinstalled (whether by the vendor or a friend), well-maintained Linux distro should be much less work than a preinstalled, well-maintained Windows installation”
I disagree. Once installed, the AV software should just work, Windows updates are automated, no effort there. Antispyware, same thing, should just work.
Besides, the main thing is that I WAS saying it is the perception of the normal user, regardless if it is true or not
“disagree. Once installed, the AV software should just work, Windows updates are automated, no effort there. Antispyware, same thing, should just work. ”
Does this also include you archiving tool; Document viewer; Bitmap editor; Games the list goes on, Thats leaving out libraries / drivers etc. Simply put maintenance for a single user is better than than of a Microsoft platform…and thats without mentioning adware spyware warez etc.
There are advantages of the Microsoft platform familiarity; Default being the main ones, but don’t lie.
“but don’t lie”
1. I didn’t lie, I gave an opinion, that’s not a lie.
2. My bitmap editor on Windows worked out of the box, and for most games, you still have to install, them, on any platform.
3. Drivers, even for Vista, the driver situation is better in the Windows world than any where but Macs, can’t you can’t dispute that.
4. I mentioned spyware and AV software, and the users expect this stuff to just work.
and for the last time, I was talking about user PERCEPTIONS, whatever the reality it. and don’t call me a liar. I may be wrong, I may be right, but it’s an opinion, not a lie.
How come I can’t edit my comments? I just realized how badly I mangled my last post
Sorry, but as a Mandriva Linux user, I just don’t get this.
I use AV software under my Linux but no viruses seem to come in, so why do I need this?
Ditto with spyware and the like . . . that’s why I spend almost all of my time in Linux these days, I’m paying for a secure system so why should I have to fork out for third-party apps which supposedly do what the OS ought to be doing in the first place?
The simple fact is that my Linux distro DOES all of these things but unlike the situation in my dual-boot XP system, I don’t need these apps.
Every time I boot into Windoze it’s the same . . . I spend all of my time updating virus databases and the like, I no longer do any real work because it’s almost entirely redundant, if it weren’t for things like reloading my (Windoze-dependent) Korean mp3 player, I’d never use it at all.
I think the whole argument that’s been represented here is entirely specious (and I mean the whole thread, not just my quoted bits). Windoze is a toy, it always has been. Everyone bought it because there was increasingly no choice; it was temporarily able to compete the competition into the ground. Our friend Uncle Bill famously said: “Well, if they’re any good, let them compete” (or words to that effect). Now they are competing for free, they offer virtually everything that MS offers and perhaps more, so that MS is effectively redundant and we’re supposed to all stay with MS because certain software vendors jumped on their dubious bandwagon. People, we’re all more intelligent than that!
I don’t want to get involved in any arguments but people, I’m living in Korea and there’s really a hell of a lot more to the world than Microsoft, Korea is a slave to MS and suffers for it in terms of bots and viruses and all sorts of malware, if anything were ever “writ large” then this is it. This place is a killer, the single most sensible thing anyone with more than two brain cells to knock together can do is ditch Microsoft. It’s as simple as that.
MS depends for its existence on a certain “ecosystem” and when that ecosystem cannot abide, MS ditto. I think the truth is that it’s really a bit like your first car: if you’ve just passed your test then an older car is good because the financial effect of accidents is mitigated. But old cars fall apart and that’s Microsoft down to a T (Model T, perhaps??).
Eventually people bite the bullet and look beyond what they knew and saw before and that’s how I came to gravitate towards Linux rather than MS – that and the fact that MS is part of the DRM scam and so, when I actually bought (yes BOUGHT, I built my own PC here in Korea, don’t tell me that I don’t know what I’m talking about here!) XP Pro, I couldn’t get the thing supplied in English and this in itself, I felt, was a serious security flaw (in other words, everything else was in Korean, heeeelppp mmmeeee!!!!!!!!!!!) whereas from the beginning this was NOT A PROBLEM with Mandriva. I could have any language I liked and if anyone ever asks me to install Linux for them I can start it in English and then change it to Korean, or Chinese or Japanese or whatever, at no extra cost. Could I do that with any version of MS after 98SE?
The reasons why people do things like select an OS are many but please don’t give me all of your spurious arguments about Linux vs Apple vs Windoze . . . this is all pointless frippery. Mandriva does what I want to do and if people want to use Apple or whatever, then more strength to their beer elbow, I say. Anything rather than avoid a sterile monoculture. How boring that would be!
I wouldn’t want to get caught up in this silly Linux intelligence sub-thread that seems to have arisen but I would suggest that people who began with MS would transition to another OS for many reasons. Comfort and reduced security concerns might be a couple of them. And no need for spurious third-party apps, too.
“The reasons why people do things like select an OS are many but please don’t give me all of your spurious arguments about Linux vs Apple vs Windoze . . .”
I wasn’t giving any arguments, spurious or otherwise, I was commenting on the public PERCEPTION of linux as an OS, please, just read my original post.
Quote: “According to you, some one who doesn’t use Linux is stupid?”
That’s not what I said. You said that, so please don’t put your words in my mouth. If you were to statistically look at it, you would find that those that use Linux come from a higher IQ zone, and are more technically inclined, and affluent than the average Windows user. I’m not saying all Windows users are dumb, and I’m not saying all Linux users are super smart and I’m most certainly not saying that if you don’t use Linux you’re dumb.
Now, since you’ve managed to throw an insult into the equation, I’ll mod you down. The person that actually modded you up needs to read the osnews posting rules 😉
As to your Dr. analogy, you’ve got it wrong. I can understand most of what a Dr. is saying, even if I can’t perform the operation myself. That’s far different to what you’re saying. The average person would be lost. It all comes back to below/at/above average intelligence.
Dave
‘That’s not what I said. You said that, so please don’t put your words in my mouth. If you were to statistically look at it, you would find that those that use Linux come from a higher IQ zone, and are more technically inclined, and affluent than the average Windows user. I’m not saying all Windows users are dumb, and I’m not saying all Linux users are super smart and I’m most certainly not saying that if you don’t use Linux you’re dumb.
‘
They’re also girlfriendless/childless and can spend all day in front of a computer.. I’m sure most can’t wait for the day when they can plug their computers straight in their arses and visualise their hard discs projected over their eyeballs, aircraft hud style.
Back in the real world, people like me who use computers and have children don’t have the time to learn or do very much with computers. It’s just a tool to get things done… not replacement for people and friends.
If you were to statistically look at it, you would find that those that use Linux come from socially retarded zone.
The articles author was spot on on every point as far as I’m concerned… someone put him in charge of developing a marketing startegy for Linux.
“If you were to statistically look at it, you would find that those that use Linux come from socially retarded zone. ”
This is so freakin true! I invite anyone to attend a local Linux user group sometime and you will see what I mean. A bunch of 40+ virgins and other dateless wonders with the social skills of a cow. It was enough that I have never attended another meeting.
I modded you up one but your still on zero… linux fanboys! Always trying to conceal posts by modding them down even if on topic and inoffensive
“I modded you up one but your still on zero…”
It’s on 0 or less because it is just as retarded (and offtopic) as the “Windows uses have less IQ” post.
“Always trying to conceal posts by modding them down even if on topic and inoffensive”
You are comedy gold. Oh yeah, it doesn’t get any less offensive than lame name calling.
What a load of cr*p – if anything the composition of a LUG just consists more of people who think for themselves.
Been in 3.5 (LONIX/GLLUG is the 1.5)LUG’s so far and although all different NONE of them match this description
“those that use Linux come from a higher IQ zone”
Pure crap, I’ve seen many smart doctors use old as crud windows boxs with 98/2000 loaded on them,
with flashing banner ads on there badly blurry faded 14″ monitors, it’s not funny!
Those that do have new machines, buy mostly new Mac laptops or the like.
Maybe convince the Doctors not the dunces first.
Now there is some smart thinking
Since when is that a Dr must have a high IQ? The two are completely different. The same with lawyers – if you look at most laws, and most judge’s decisions and legal cases, you’ll see that the vast majority of them lack even the remotest amount of common sense. IQ’s are about thinking logically, using common sense, and how wel you do that. It’s not about knowledge, it’s not about trivial facts, it’s how logical you think. In fact, if you look at the number of f*ckups Doctors (especially younger ones) are doing these days, it simply proves me point. They are learning by rote, rather than using logic to work out a patients ills.
I’ve been saying for quite some time that modern degrees are worthless, they are a dime a dozen. They used to have some meaning, where the elite earnt a degree, but these days…it’s de rigeur for every bright eyed kid to have one. I see a bunch of these kids in the workforce, and you know what, they can’t think to save their lives.
Dave
If you were to statistically look at it, you would find that those that use Linux come from a higher IQ zone,
Yes I would like to look at it statistically. So could you please show me the statistics to back up this pure bullshit statement. What you don’t have any statistics? So why the hell did you say ‘statistically’?
Where the hell do you get off with such pure and utter arrogance?
Linux users are as smart or dumb as any other group of people in my experience. They just have far more interest in their computers than most.
Quote: “According to you, some one who doesn’t use Linux is stupid?”
That’s not what I said.
And…
It all comes back to below/at/above average intelligence.
Ok, you are contradicting yourself once more.
I probably don’t know how to operate a hearth. But I know the things I should do to avoid certain medical problems from happening, so I don’t have to go to the Doc. very often. I also know that I should follow his instructions if I want to get better. And just the same, if a Doc. keeps getting computer viruses and keeps calling me to fix his computers, I’d probably end up recommending him a safer OS.
Ok, I’ll call you an elitist bastard.
You state “The majority of people using a computer these days shouldn’t be.”
Then you say “I work in the support industry, I see it, day in and day out – the vast majority of people using computers are basically computer illiterate” ect ect.
What would you be doing if everybody was a computer expert? You just might be out of a job. The people you deal with may be computer illiterate. I agree, that can be annoying. You however appear to be intollerant of such people. A potentially unfortunate character flaw.
I won’t bother quoting your last paragraph. Such an argument is so asinine it boggles the mind.
But hey, at least you admit you’re an elitist bastard. Gotta give you credit on that account.
You are not an “elitist bastard”. You are just telling the whole truth, and this is simply unbearable for some people.
Working in education, all I see day in and out is clueless people trying to perform monkey-tasks in their computers and bailing out the instant they don’t recognize that new message on the screen. They don’t even bother to read the message. Those few who do like to understand, do get an interest in Linux at the end.
Computing is all about getting the work done (at least for some people) but then again you MUST understand what the job is all about and how to do it. Since when is knowledge and brain-function a disadvantage?
Even more than that a computer is a superb creativity tool. Why would you use a tool that is essentially a brain-extender (like a pair of pliers is a strength-extender) as a brain-dead person? Brainless users don’t need computers, and linux communities do not need them either. As I often say to my students when they do not use their brains: “We have twelve monkeys with monitors here (the labs PCS), I don’t need another twelve operating them”
In fact I find that in such monkey environments, Linux has a definite advantage: At least they cannot break the OS, period. Windows needs a reinstall every other day or special third party programs to lock it down. (Still need the user to run as admin, otherwise lots of programs won’t run)
Finally monkey users are completely unable to install an OS, any OS, and lets face it all installation programs are easy these days but they still require knowledge and understanding. Give the monkey Linux and tell it it is a computer and that’s all there is to it, and it will be happy. Problem is you can’t really buy a preinstalled Linux machine.
As an Ubuntu user… I agree. I used to want more and more people to switch, but I care less everyday. Probably has something to do with me frequenting Ubuntuforums.
Now someone will say it’s attitudes like ours that keep people from switching to Linux. Sigh.. If only that were true…
Edited 2007-05-22 00:37
According to you, i should be thankful to Microsoft and Apple because without them my non-techie friends or non-techie family won’t be able to use computers.
Why can’t people like you just accept the fact that Linux is trying to penetrate the market, it just hasn’t been successful in doing so.
Linux is a confusing mess of 100s of distributions that minutely differ from each other, adds no overall value, burden developers and confuses users.
Linux as a community is more fragmented than Unix ever was and that IMO is preventing it from being successful.
Thank god at least Linus has Linux (TM) or we will see 100s of different Linux kernel too.
>Thank god at least Linus has Linux (TM) or we will see 100s of different Linux kernel too.
If someone wants to fork, he can easily do it – it’ GPL. Just the term Linux is a trademark.
And we have different Linux kernels out there, different versions, different patches, some experimental patches etc. etc.
And this is because people do like variety, they don’t like dictatorship usus with MacOS or Windows. It’s not confusing, you just have the choice. And some people aren’t able to see this great possibility. They just need someone who leads them and this is a pity.
If fragmentation in the Linux community was really the problem, then you’d see non-fragmented projects like FreeBSD doing really well amongst mere mortal users. They don’t though, do they?
Fragmentation isn’t the problem. Difficulty isn’t either. Here’s what the problem really is:
Most people who use Windows don’t really know how to use it. They just know a subset (e.g. checking mail, browsing the web, writing letters to grandma, etc.) and they are comfortable with that subset.
The problem that Linux has is that people don’t know the subsets because they are different. They are all there and are all as easy as to use as their Windows counterparts (if not more so), but people aren’t familiar with them. They don’t know what to do, get frustrated, and give up.
Of course, some people don’t use it for the same reason I use OS X sometimes; because a necessary application isn’t supported on Linux. In my case, these applications are Cubase, Final Cut, and Photoshop.
Couldn’t have put it better myself.
Articles like this seem to always be written by journalist who are Windows nerds, decided to play around with linux, quickly discovered they aren’t as computer literate as they thought they were, and know just enough to understand that it can be an incredibly powerful system, but don’t know enough (or aren’t willing to learn how) to effectively use the features that make it so powerful.
I use Gentoo, but don’t think that I go telling people who can barely deal with Windows that Gentoo will solve their problems. The last thing I want is a bunch of computer illiterate boobs clogging up the Gentoo forums and mailing lists demanding that somebody else fix their problems for them.
So just because someone isn’t good with computers, they are an idiot with below-average intelligence? Are you saying that you are smarter than a computer illiterate doctor or specialist?
Trust me, if judging intelligence was as easy as testing someone’s computer skills, the average IQ test wouldn’t be carried around in its own dedicated suitcase my friend.
It is rather naive to say that because someone isn’t good at the exact things you are, they are of lower intelligence. A doctor could do the exact same thing and call you a moron or an idiot because you don’t know how to do open-heart surgery (but most doctors use their heads, unlike yourself, and wouldn’t say something that stupid).
At least someone here has a brain. +1 to you.
If someone is too stupid to read, too stupid to learn, then yes, they’re stupid. I have known of, “doctors,” who sell AIDS cure-alls in Africa, things like bleach and lemon juice.
I am a specialist, I specialize in computers. I don’t specialize in cars, I do however know how to change my oil, use the radio and set the clock – the manual describes these things. If I could not read the manual and consequently set the digital clock in my car, I’d have to be stupid.
Being stupid illustrates one’s stupidity, being unable to read is a very good illustration.
If I were to try treating maladies, and doing so poorly, it would not reflect in the same manner – since I have no manual on how to treat all the ailments I may encounter, Unix comes with that though. It’s called man.
The majority of users are being efficient when they accept the default which “works well enough with little effort” instead of choosing something which “works well enough with a large learning curve”. That is smart.
You would rather insult people than consider alternative explanations for their choices.
Fundamentally there is a difference between the “evangelistic” Linux community who want to see a larger desktop significance for Linux and the other Linux communities who don’t have Linux’s desktop significance as a priority.
Your analogy is flawed. A doctor (at least a polite doctor) would not call me a moron because I don’t know how to do open-heart surgery. A doctor would call me a moron if I tried to do open heart surgery on myself without knowing what I’m doing, messed up, and then showed up at his/her office asking them to fix me while dropping comments about how it shouldn’t have been any more difficult than when I dissected a frog in my high-school biology class.
Yay
Best post ever!
A major misconception is that Linux, “wants,” the idiots that are happy with Windows.
Well, apparently these guys do:
http://badvista.fsf.org
The thing about the FOSS community is that it’s so splintered, it can’t even decide whether or not it wants Windows uers to keep using Windows. It has no unifying vision whatsoever. Nothing wrong with that per se, but it certainly explains a lot about the marketshare of open source operating systems on the desktop (or lack thereof).
“A major misconception is that Linux, “wants,” the idiots that are happy with Windows. To a rather sizeable part of the non-Windows world, the Windows world can go get stuffed like a turkey. ”
That’s a pretty pompous attitude to take, which further ingrains the perpetuating myth that Linux users are OS snobs. I actually believe “moroning” up message boards is a good thing…it’s easy for developers to over complicate what should be trivial tasks to the point that it takes a CS degree for something to be usable. I seriously doubt you speak for all of the Linux communities who will each take any new users that come their way.
One of the reasons Windows is so incredibly easy and simple to use is a direct result of the all the so called Windows morons you mentioned. They need an easy OS, so it’s an easy OS they get.
You’re a fool. Developers of many system components do just the opposite of complicating things, Unix’s very basis is in simplification. Just because you find it hard to read the documentation, the manual pages for commands, does not mean it requires a degree in computer sciences. Admittedly, sometimes there is no documentation, then things become a mystery – how do you use X if there is no man page explaining X windows? That is a fault of the software, improper documentation makes software worse than useless, it can make it dangerous. That just means the person is using shite software.
I already said that not all of the various communities have the same opinion you wanker, could you at least have the decency to read what you are arguing against? It would surely make your points more interesting. I know many distributions hate wasting their time on idiots who will not perform even the simplest of tasks – reading the documentation they’ve made – instead these people flood message boards, mailing lists and IRC channels with questions that are already answered for their aid in a rather blatent location.
Is driving stick easy? Intuitive? No, most certainly not, sit someone down and they will destroy a transmission or worse with their retarded thrashing. If they don’t bother to properly educate themselves, they will ruin the automobile.
It takes a willingness to think about what you’re doing to learn standards as opposed to automatics. Is it wrong to call someone who would buy a standard and expect it to drive like an automatic a moron? I don’t think it is.
The reason Windows is so increadibly, “easy and simple to use,” is because it is viewed as the only option – there are classes in how to use Excell, Word or even Front Page. Yes, Windows is so easy to use, there are classes in how to use individual programmes which all follow the same basic interface rules that all Microsoft applications do.
The morons want a toaster that does e-mail, a television set that does Internet searches, a telephone that lets them MSNM their online friends – they want an appliance, they are quite oblivious to what they have. To many of the boobs out there Windows is synonymous with computer, or PC, hell, to them the Monitor is the PC as often as not. They’re welcome to stay in Windows-land, where that is what they will get out of their machine.
“I know many distributions hate wasting their time on idiots who will not perform even the simplest of tasks – reading the documentation they’ve made”
Then no doubt those distributions won’t be around much longer. You cannot treat your customers like idiots and expect to stay in business for any length of time.
“Is driving stick easy? Intuitive? No, most certainly not, sit someone down and they will destroy a transmission or worse with their retarded thrashing. If they don’t bother to properly educate themselves, they will ruin the automobile.”
You only have to learn once. That knowledge then transfers to any other car on the planet.
Blah blah blah…I can see you’re one of those kinds of people, so I’m done here.
Who said anyone was a customer? Noone using Ubuntu is paying anyone, they’re users, nameless people which usually contribute nothing. It’s funny, OpenBSD’s usage has pretty steadily grown over the years and it’s always had that attitude, Gentoo to a lesser degree has a similar behaviour towards idiots.
You may need only learn once, but as I was already saying, these are the people who never learn. Perhaps you’re hard of reading?
Developers of many system components do just the opposite of complicating things, Unix’s very basis is in simplification.
That might be true of UNIX, and is certainly true of UNIX twenty years ago, but it isn’t even remotely accurate for the majority of components currently used in your average Linux distribution.
One of the reasons Windows is so incredibly easy and simple to use is a direct result of the all the so called Windows morons you mentioned. They need an easy OS, so it’s an easy OS they get.
No more simple and easy to use than Ubuntu. Of course they don’t have to install Windows on the system they have just bought at Best Buy.
The new Ubuntu based systems from Dell are ar least a start in getting Linux preinstalled systems more widely available.
Running a modern Linux desktop box today is not like it was six to seven years ago. Where frequently something would break and you would have to spend days tweaking things via the CLI to get things working. Nowadays by and large it just works. It has a cool and elegant selection of Desktop Environments and there is software for most things you would want to do.
Janizary, I gave you ‘+’ for your post. There are two groups of Linux people. The first group believes that Linux is developed by Linux community and for Linux community. The other group is advocating aggressively, almost insulting people for not using Linux and not accepting the values of Linux community.
The first group is more honest and logically consistent, at least in my eyes.
>A major misconception is that Linux, “wants,” the idiots that are happy with Windows.
That’s an oversimplification..
One thing that Linux users have in common (whatever distro they run) is that they would like to have hardware drivers, applications, etc.
Without a significant market share, why would those company bother with Linux?
So realistically, you can’t have one without the other..
Good reasoning, but most of the drivers are still maintained by community, based on vendor specifications. Linux desktop share is low, and not many companies offer their own drivers for Linux.
So, yes, more consumers would mean more drivers, but it something that still needs to happen.
3 – People want certainty that hardware and software will work
My wife’s Vista does its update thing, and both Norton and Quicken are ‘tits up’.
When one party owns the code, they will directly and indirectly pwn you, whenever they a) feel like picking your pocket for an upgrade, or b) screw it up as big as any F/OSS project, but without the eyes on code.
Get rid of norton and install the latest patches on Quicken.
Think about why those pieces of software don’t work: Norton is written based on an old codebase that integrates into Windows at a lot of semi-documented “sticky” points. And the Symantec people don’t have the testing effort or, frankly, the incentive to make the consumer versions work flawlessly. Just dump Norton. It’s a piece of crap and not strictly necessary on a Vista box with UAC turned on.
Quicken, similarly, is written by people who know more about taxes than programming and it also has an old codebase that is clearly insufficiently maintained. Once people buy the latest version of Quicken, Intuit has little incentive to keep improving it. Sadly MS Money isn’t any better. The problem is clearly that this kind of software is so utterly boring that only crappy programmers who can’t get a job doing something better end up working on it. I don’t think Open Source will necessarily do any better at this, but who knows?
“Just dump Norton. It’s a piece of crap and not strictly necessary on a Vista box with UAC turned on.”
I have no words.
One thing i forgot to mention is that Linux really lacks good applications and tries to fill the hole with cheap clones.
I gave ubuntu to my girl-friend and first thing she wanted was to run yahoo messenger with webcam to chat with her family.
That was the end of her ubuntu experience.
Kopete supports the Yahoo protocol and has webcam support for it.
In fact, Kopete is a good example where the application “clone” is better than the original. With a single app you can track *all* of your IM friends, not matter what IM service you or they use.
I fail to see what “Yahoo Messenger” and “good applications” have in common, though.
“Kopete supports the Yahoo protocol and has webcam support for it.”
Actually Kopete does not support Yahoo voice and video. You can recieve webcam..you can not send webcam with it. And for voice chat it does not work at all. And according to the Kopete team, it is not on the radar to support.
Actually, you can both send and receive webcam with the Yahoo protocol using Kopete 0.12. Seems your info is a bit out of date.
That is true. If you want to communicate to a Yahoo client using voice, you’re better off with Ekiga. There is a nice HowTo here that shows how to do it:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=414121
“Actually, you can both send and receive webcam with the Yahoo protocol using Kopete 0.12. Seems your info is a bit out of date.”
Actually my info is from attempting it. There are numerous items on the web about it as well. It does not broadcast Yahoo webcam, though it does from MSN. That may not be what the Kopete team says, I will have to look. I do know it does not work for me from attempting to use Kopete 0.12. It sees the webcam, but there is not even an option to broadcast it, though as I said, I can view webcams with it.
I will give Ekiga a shot and see how that works. I have used Gyach-E, which works most of the time, just not reliably.
Indeed, that is not what the Kopete team says. Can you send Webcam using MSN?
As for me I *was* able to send webcam through Kopete using MSN…but I haven’t tried with Yahoo! as no one I know uses it.
“Indeed, that is not what the Kopete team says. Can you send Webcam using MSN?”
No idea here on MSN. I am the opposite on that score, not knowing anyone who uses MSN. I have read many places where that works, and you just confirmed that.
I have to agree that Linux is not for me. Please don’t bash me if I’m unable to use Linux and for using Windows. That’s life, bear with me, I don’t ask you to use Windows. Oh, and if one day you ain’t happy with Linux anymore, go code your own operating system!
And this, along with the vast selection of distros that confuse users, works against further Linux adoption.
You are correct. “We” (i don’t know what else to say.. hehe) ought to have a bigger piece of the “market”. This way we (hopefully) would get better hardware support as a side effect.
A major misconception is that Linux, “wants,” the idiots that are happy with Windows. To a rather sizeable part of the non-Windows world, the Windows world can go get stuffed like a turkey.
You are also correct. “We” don’t want total domination of the OS market, but just a large enough piece (again) to get more hardware manufacturers to support linux.
” “We” don’t want total domination of the OS market, but just a large enough piece (again) to get more hardware manufacturers to support linux.”
Why would we not want total domination of the OS market? Linux is an excellent replacement for the tyranny we have now.
Because a varied OS ecosystem is the best, safest computing environmnet you can get (as long as you have interoperability).
Why replace a tyranny with another? Choice is good, variety is good…total world domination is just a drain on resources.
Confused as to which distro to get? Go see some Linux consultants.
Want to know which hardware is compatible? Go see some Linux consultants.
Want to know which software is closest to your requirements? Go see some Linux consultants and FLOSS programmers.
Command line too confusing? Go see a *nix consultant.
Linux too geeky? Go see a counsellor.
People don’t want to invest the necessary amount of money to get the software and information they require. It costs money to hire consultation information and support from Linux professionals. It costs money to hire software developers to modify and improve already existing Free software products.
I can tell you in my area where I work, it costs me in the range of AU$200/hour for quality consultation and up to AU$300/hour for a free software programmer. In my opinion, this investment is worth every cent in order to remain digitally Free.
> People don’t want to invest the necessary amount of money…
For the non-techie, it’s just simpler (and probably even cheaper) to pay MS.
Or there’s that other way. You know…RTFM. That my friend, is free and unlike Windows there is plenty of documentation for everything you listed.
“That my friend, is free and unlike Windows there is plenty of documentation for everything you listed.”
The thousands of books for sale about Windows over on Amazon begs to differ. The tens of thousands of websites devoted to Windows also beg to differ. How do you think Windows experts got to be experts?
That’s a problem for many people. Not wanting to RTFM is the basis of problems described by this article. The author thinks that the current rate of adoption for Linux on the desktop is because people do not want to invest time to to wade through all the information required to make informed decisions. The problems described by Kingsley-Hughes can be fixed by acquiring advice and service from someone who should know about these things i.e. paying a professional that is actively operating in the relevant field. The hypothetical non-switcher can also can get free advice and service from online and offline acquaintances i.e. the “Linux community”.
I believe the (slow) rate of adoption of Linux on the desktop is the combination of genuine satisfaction with existing systems, apprehension towards switching to alternatives, apathy towards obtaining the information needed to successfully switch to alternatives, apprehension towards investing time/effort/money into making the switch and finally, overall ignorance. I have reached this conclusion after experiencing many discussions of online and offline acquaintances related to “adopting Linux on the desktop”.
Yes there are plenty of documentation, but I believe that people are too tight (in terms of time or money or effort, too lazy, too apathetic, or too apprehensive to adopt Linux seriously.
Basically, if you want to switch to Linux (from established systems), you need to commission a real investment to make it work. People don’t want to make that investment and I believe that this explains the apathy of people that “would like to adopt but won’t until x,y, and z are supported on Linux” or “would like to switch but are too set in their ways”.
Edited 2007-05-22 06:16
Try linuxquestions.org
I’ve used linux for years, and I’ve never paid a dime in support.
BTW: did you know that SAP consultants are the highest paid in the business?
that the average user is too stupid to use linux. Thanks for the info.
God, I’m so glad someone said that.. I would also add to that “too lazy”.
Yep and it shows throughout society, most are too stupid to even know how their apathetic actions are screwing their lives over more and more every day. I don’t understand why so many like the writer cares so much about the state of Linux? Did he just clear the sleep from his eyes and see there was greener grass on the otherside perhaps? Ah – but the grass was too coarse for his liking. Well – he could always roll up his sleaves and help make the grass softer
“that the average user is too stupid to use linux. Thanks for the info.”
That is 100% incorrect. The average user doesn’t care that much about computers. They’d rather be spending time with friends, or playing sports, or walking their dog. The average user has about a 30 minute attention span. If a task takes longer than that, they will move on without ever looking back.
Just for the record, I didn’t say windows users are too stupid to use linux. The author of the article did, IMHO. (I think that’s a load of crap. Anyone can learn linux, if they decide to.) I have to help friends and family with their windows problems constantly, despite the fact I almost never run windows. I have converted a few people, but not even half really. My frustration is that these people run into the same problems repeatedly, problems they just wouldn’t have, (and the converts don’t have) when running Kubuntu, I have to fix things, just because they won’t bother to learn anything new, even new windows type things. I never said I was as bright as a doctor, or even a machanic, but I do make sure I know where the brake is before I get behind the wheel of a car. I do read the manual when I buy a new camera, or download a manual or guide if I buy an old or used camera. (Wanted a non-life threatening example for a fair comparison, with a computer.) Anyway, if you use a piece of tech, you have an obligation to bother to learn how to use it, before you complain. If a few more people just bothered to learn how to use linux my life at least would be a little easier. Now play nice ladys.
You don’t really have to care about computers.
Evaluating alternatives can take some time, and switching definitely takes some work, but if it saves time on the long term then it might be worth anyway.
Of course I’d rather spend time with my friends and family, or making some noise with my band. That’s precisely why I’m using linux.
that the average user is too stupid to use linux. Thanks for the info.
No. You completely misunderstood the article, which mirrors the Linux community’s lack of understanding of average Windows users. He didn’t say that the average user is too stupid. What he said is that (1) users, by and large, like Windows, (2) there are too many Linux distros, (3) hardware and software support is spotty, (4) the command-line is dead, and (5) Linux is the province of geeks. Nowhere did he say or imply that users are too stupid.
This should have already been done. If it has, what were the results? If it hasn’t, why not?
Edited 2007-05-22 01:37
This should have already been done. If it has, what were the results? If it hasn’t, why not?
It has been done. And is still being done.
http://www.betterdesktop.org/
Relating to the quote: thats totally wrong. My mates use their laptops for years. Sure, they can fire up a browser, log into MSN Messenger with their Hotmail-account and load their iPod. But they don’t know anything about what they are actually doing, and nothing beyond that. They are “scared” of what Windows update will do and so run their unpatched XP SP1 OEM Dell laptops, probably malware ridden without end. People are not that ignorant against their car, TV, toaster, etc.. – only towards their PC. Why is that? Because all they wanna do is to browse and email. You never have to patch your TV, after all.
If you stick 100 average Windows users in front of, well, Windows then you will get exactly the same result compared to sticking them in front of a current KDE. I am not sure where the utter misconception is coming from that people actually have a clue about Windows.
Windows is big for 3 reasons:
It comes pre-installed
All your friends / work have it
MS was first to market with a graphical interface – 3.xx enabled even the cluless to achieve at least something, where Nix required a computer expert, notwithregarding that fact that there was no Linux to download in the first place at the 3.xx-times (please spare me the Xerox reference, you know what I am up to). Then W95 was really impressive for what it was, if we ignore that it didn’t work so well in the end.
If you do your marketing research, you would learn that most always, the first product for anything is the market leader, the 2nd to market will get a good proportion still and all the rest won’t have much luck.
Which Japanese car manufacturer was first to market in the US and which one is the biggest today? Who was second? You can check this for any given product. Etc.. there is a good book on these market mechanisms called something like 22 or 28 (?) marketing wisdoms/secrets (?) (dunno the exact english title)
Linux can be as good as it can get, for this fact alone it will have a very difficult battle to fight, not to talk about that MS isn’t even here to play fair.
To answer your question, I believe either Lindows or Lycoris made one of those usability tests 1-2 years ago (?)
Haha, I first installed Lycoris when it was still named Redmond Linux and when asking for support in a forum they thought I’d be an MS troll
“MS was first to market with a graphical interface”
I agree with most of your other points but this is just plain incorrect.
X, Macintosh, Amiga and GEM (to name but a few) all predates Windows 3.x. Microsoft was in no way first to market with a graphical user interface.
“find, I don’t know, 100 people who aren’t Linux geeks and stick them in front of the OS. Use these people to get feedback on different aspects of the OS. As soon as users start to look confused, scared or go bug-eyed then something needs tweaking.”
This should have already been done. If it has, what were the results? If it hasn’t, why not?
Back in 2001 Sun conducted a usability study on GNOME 1.2.2
http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/ut1_report/
This study was important for the development of the GNOME HIG and the major chhanges in the approach to usability in the subsequent GNOME 2.x series
I mean, its an outstanding effort for a free Linux distribution, but theyre pretty much limited to bundling up whatever apps the various factions in the OSS community come up with.
They have no ability to tightly control much about their OS at all – unlike MS and Apple, Canonical don’t have any direct influence over how the software they package and distribute is architected.
Theres only so much polish they can put on their product, and the flaws in Linux from an end-user perspective run way deeper, from ‘all the apps go in /usr/bin’ to ‘Sorry, X11 just draws rectangles, thats all it does’ to ‘We can’t sacrifice compatibility with other UNIXes to make the sound work properly on linux’, to ‘Despite the prevailing wisdom in every other branch of software development, a stable API for device drivers is seen as harmful in the Linux kernel’.
Until all these things change (and they are slowly changing), Linux, and by extension Ubuntu, can simply not gain the level of functionality from an end user point of view that Windows and OS X have.
This is the same ‘layering violation’ problem that Sun’s ZFS has. ZFS is great, does the job really well from the end user perspective, but leaves Linux developers upset because it simply ignores the way everything else works in order to get the job done.
Which is understandable, if there was any real prospect that the job would ever get done in the ‘layered’ way, without the competitive pressure exerted by a ‘just works’ solution.
If anyone really wants to be a credible competitor for MS or Apple in the desktop OS market, they really need to realise that the incredibly crufty UNIX approach just isn’t that good any more.
Sometimes you have to break with tradition and agressively redesign to make major progress – but because the OSS community is stuck cloning MS or Apple, or simply assuming that UNIX paradigms will never outlive their usefulness, I can’t see a credible challenge for a long, long time. But nobody – not Sun, not Novell, not RedHat, not Canonical, definitely not the massively split factions of the OSS community – nobody – is prepared to do what needs to be done and rework the end-user GUI environment and API on Linux from top-to-bottom to facilitate desktop adoption.
There really isn’t any large installed base of proprietary UNIX desktops left to break from any more….
…which is a lot of very good applications, which allow most users do to pretty much every task they would want to with their Linux systems. I’m a pretty demanding user myself, and guess what: *all* my computing needs are satisfied by my Kubuntu laptop.
BTW, it’s interesting how you use the word “faction” in order to further underline the idea that competition is bad…
Really? How much direct influence do Microsoft and Apple have on Adobe for the way Photoshop is architected?
The first item you mention is not a flaw, as it is transparent to users.
The second item is completely irrelevant. I don’t even know what it’s supposed to mean in the context of this discussion.
The third item is false. Sound works properly on Linux.
There are valid criticisms to be made of Linux and its mass market appeal, but none of these are.
I hope you can see the irony in that statement… (hint: what type of OS is OS X built on?)
In any case, how do you explain that OSX and Linux’s market share are roughly similar (and dwarfed by Microsoft’s)? According to your logic, OSX would not be a credible competitor either.
That because it doesn’t need to be done, because the end-user GUI environments and API on Linux have *nothing* to do with desktop adoption. Heck, with Beryl/Compiz, Gnome and KDE are *better* GUI environments than what Microsoft has (and are on par with Apple’s).
To be frank; I don’t care if Linux ever becomes popular with Joe User. I would like for the open source community to be able to get the documented specifications for the various hardware, so that we may get to the task of writing drivers. Now we can put our resources to the job of really polishing up applications, and perfecting the operating system code tree.
Joe User can have Windows, and MacOS. We can then keep Linux/BSD the way a lot us like it; mean and trim. An OS for those not afraid to think and explore. There is room for the both of us, and anyone would be free to come and go as they please.
I apologize if I sound like an elitist; however I believe a lot of us subconsciously feel this way.
I apologize if I sound like an elitist; however I believe a lot of us subconsciously feel this way.
No need to apologize, you are how you are !
“I don’t care if Linux ever becomes popular with Joe User.”
Well, then you’re just resigning yourself to living in an MS dominated world.
That sort of thinking is a real gift to MS.
It comes with their computer. When was the last time you saw one of these “Joe Users” actually update their operating system, even between different Windows versions? Many of them don’t even know they’re _RUNNING_ windows.
Windows is popular because it’s default, not because it’s superior or inferior to anything else.
It comes with their computer.
You hit it! That’s the main reason for Windows’ overwhelming popularity. In fact, it speaks very highly of GNU/Linux that it has gained any market share in light of that fact.
One point the author misses.
Windows is not as expensive as he even makes out. Most consumers don’t buy a boxed copy of Windows, it comes preinstalled on their computer. EVERY tier-1 vendor that offers Linux generally charges more for the same system with Linux instead of Windows. OEM licenses are cheap (not hundreds of dollars like the author claims), and the crapware kickbacks to OEMs lowers the cost even more, to the point that even being free, Linux still can’t compete on price when the added complexity of installing and supporting multiple operating systems is taken into account. So cost simply isn’t an issue except for the small minority of computer users that build their own systems and squeeze every penny, and even a large number of those consumers are gamers who will naturally run Windows.
People are inherently resistent to change. I’ve had to help people transition to a Mac before, and with its incredible ease of use compared to anything else on the market (IMHO), it still is difficult to transition to for most people.
Until we move away from the current desktop ecosystem, Microsoft will dominate, as much as all of us would like to see that change. I personally would like to see Microsoft, Apple and Linux each take a third of the market, but I simply don’t see it happening. I would be absolutely amazed if Linux and Apple combined managed to grab 20% of the market, and I’m a self-proclaimed Apple enthusiast and don’t run Windows on any of my computers.
I think you nailed it with your statement about peoplpe being resistant to change, especially the “power users”. A lot of longtime Windows users have pretty muchbecome Windows “gurus”; they know every registry and dll hack, every tweak, every little nut and bolt of that OS, and they enjoy their present view from the top.
Asking those particular users to make the switch to Linux, *BSD, or even OS X would mean they would (once again) have to start from the bottom of the learning curve like everyone else. Don’t bother trying to convert them – it would require them to swallow a little pride, and some people just can’t take that kind of hit to their egos.
Edited 2007-05-22 02:37
So true, but on the other hand but there is alway dual boot and VMware Player for them to get there feet wet.
Pure stubbornness yes you are right.
1) Linux does not favor the command line. Yes, you have to use it when your GUI breaks.
Clue: You have to do this with Windows, too!
2) The old “too many distros” argument! This has been debunked so many times I wish I had a dime for every one of them. Look, stupid! The average user does NOT KNOW ninety percent of the distros out there. They only know what they’ve HEARD about: Red Hat, Novell, and, lately, Ubuntu. That’s it. Maybe if they’re really clued in, they’ve heard of Linspire, or Mandriva, or something. That’s what, maybe four or five distros they’ve ever heard of? So why is this choice so onerous? Windows Vista has what, seven different versions to choose from?
3) “They aren’t that dissatisfied with Windows.” The ones who just surf, email and write the odd document in Word aren’t. Everybody who has to do actual productive work with Windows hates the thing! Anybody who does tech support for Windows hates the thing! I could KILL Bill Gates and his morons in Redmond for some of the STUPID crap their software has pulled. I just had to reinstall XP on my (dual boot with Opensuse) system after a failing hard drive issue. I barely got XP installed and installed the firewall and AV and a few more antispyware tools when Windows Update stopped working. On a CLEAN FRESH install!
Read my lips: Windows is a JOKE! An EXPENSIVE joke! If any other company in the world produced products this shoddy, they would be sued out of existence by Tuesday.
4) “Linux is too geeky”. What does this even MEAN? Is it just a restatement of the phrase “not for morons”? Does it mean Linux is not so dumbed down that nothing can be done to repair it when it fails? If so, wait – the Ubuntu folks are determined to make their distro as stupid as Windows…
5) Hardware drivers. I’ve said it here a dozen times. When the corporations stop being willing to make Bill Gates the richest guy in the world at their expense, they will start pressuring their PC vendors to supply Linux. Those vendors will then pressure their peripheral and chipset suppliers to provide certified Linux drivers.
End of problem.
The entire issue is when will the morons who run US corporations wake up to the sheer monumental headaches and monetary COST that the Windows infrastructure makes on their productivity. No matter HOW much it costs to move to Linux and OSS, in the end, it HAS to be cheaper than continually paying license fees and absorbing the costs of crashes and insecurity FOREVER.
All just to make one guy rich.
Why do I think Microsoft employees are idiots? Because where else could you find 75,000 employees working to make ONE GUY rich? Even the Trump organization probably doesn’t do that, if Ivanka is any indication…
If Microsoft employees had a brain, they’d be working for themselves in OSS making enterprise infrastructure software and cleaning up on support and modification contracts.
But I digress. TFA above is the usual nonsense we’ve come to expect from Windows shills.
That could be true, but you never use the CLI in windows, come on!!! If windows “seriously fails” you are hosed.
If you can’t play DVD’s launching CMD.EXE won’t help you. Perhaps to execute regsvr32 if DLLHELL/COM32 is involved.. but apart from that??? nah…
In linux you almost always will have to jump to “under the hood” CLI to fix something. This isn’t bad, it’s just that joe user won’t do it. If you have a problem with your TV, you use it’s menú. If the problem is more serious, you don’t open your TV and enter “debug mode” to touch things. You simple don’t know or don’t care.
If Windows “seriously fails”, the average end user doesn’t go to the command line. That’s true.
They call ME, the PC tech support guy. And HE goes to the command line.
All of which is irrelevant. If your Linux works, you NEVER go to the command line – just like Windows. I go to the command line in Linux at times because I was trained on the command line in Linux and UNIX. But I only do it when I have to do something that involves the command line – like SSHing into somebody’s server.
The rest of the time I’m in a GUI – just like Windows. So bringing up the command line as a negative for Linux simply isn’t realistic anymore.
The command line in Linux IS very valuable exactly because it allows you to fix things when they break. And this is exactly why Windows has a Recovery Console. The fact that most end users don’t use it daily is irrelevant. Most end users of Linux don’t use the command line daily – unless they want to.
Linux will always be perceived as command line dependant and you know why? Because when a noob wants help, we’re going to tell him to paste this code into a terminal because it’s faster and more efficient than explaining the 30 steps to do it via a GUI, eg.
Noob: “I can’t play DVD’s on my fresh install of Ubuntu”
Geek: “apt-get install totem-xine”
Noob: “Bah! – Linux is stuffed, you have to use a command line to install a DVD player”
WinGeek: “Click System button, Click Administration Button, Click Synaptic Package Manager, Type in your password, Click the Search button at the top of the screen, Type in totem-xine, Click the little box next to totem-xine and select Mark for Installation, Click the Mark Button, Click Apply at the top of the screen. When it’s finished installing, close that window and go to your Applications menu > Sound & Video and click Totem-Xine.
Whilst Linux has such a powerful command line function at its disposal, people are going to use it, you’d be a fool not to!
From the article:
*****
But there are dark corners that absolutely reek of Linux geekdom cliquiness that average users aren’t going to feel at home in. Ubuntu updates are one such area where you need a high level of know-how to understand what’s going on.
*****
How are updates any more complicated in Ubuntu than in Windows? Last time I checked, Windows Update in XP was essentially identical to update-manager in Ubuntu. It gives you a list of available updates, you click “Install”, it updates your system. How is that geeky, and if it is, how is Windows better?
“Why is it that the average computer user still chooses to spend hundreds of dollars on Windows or Mac”
The average user does not spend hundreds of dollars on Windows or Mac. The average user spend hundreds of dollars to buy either a PC or Mac, of which the previous happen to come bundled with Windows most of the time and the latter always comes with some version of OSX. Since it comes with the machine and works well enough the average user see no need to use anything else, even if that anything else would actually be technically or functionally better.
Edited 2007-05-22 04:19
“””
The average user does not spend hundreds of dollars on Windows or Mac. The average user spend hundreds of dollars to buy either a PC or Mac, of which the previous happen to come bundled with Windows most of the time and the latter always comes with some version of MacOS.
“””
And if it’s Windows, they come to me, the computer guy, and ask if I know where they can “get” a copy of Microsoft Office (hint, hint).
One of these days I’m going to whip out my drivers license and scream “BSA! Under cover! You’re under arrest!” just to watch them pee in their pants. 😉
Here’s a couple of things that I think were left out.
The average computer user doesn’t want to have to think. I’m not maligning their intelligence. It’s a simple matter of return on investment. The average computer user would like to leverage everything they’ve learned in order to use the computer. In essense the computer should “disappear” and let the user focus on the task. What the user is used to is a tremendous barrier to adoption.
Following up on the previous point the user has no vested interest in moving to a new system if there aren’t compelling reasons to do so. The average user would never feel comfortable installing a new hard drive, why would they install a new operating system. The average user uses a computer like the average driver uses a car. Most people beside mechanics and enthusiasts have never installed a new engine. We just want to get in, drive, and get where we’re going.
When a compelling case is made to switch to Linux, and when mainstream ISVs are porting major applications, and when major manufacturers are offering the OS pre-installed then we’ll see an adoption on a wide scale. Until then Linux will sit on the enthusiast’s desktop and on the server.
And that is fine with me. Let Microsoft be all things to all people. I think there is plenty of room in the market for multiple botique distributions of Linux to fill lots of little niches.
This is one of the best posts that I’ve read so far in this thread. Thanks for taking the time.
oops, double post
Edited 2007-05-22 04:36
1 – Dissatisfaction with Windows
Cold be, but it’s more about dissatisfaction with
the way Microsoft wants us to use their products.
Linux is more about choice and freedom.
2 – Too many distros.
That’s totally irrelevant; average user will not install rPath or Astaro Linux ever. They usually go for three or four well established brands in Linux world.And BTW average user does not run new operating system in virtual machine nor does any testing on their own, same way they don’t test Windows/Mac OSX, they buy recommended operating systems.
3 – Hardware compatibility.
It’s getting better every day.
4 – Command line
I can’t remember last time I had to use terminal/console and I’m using Linux exclusively everyday on my five home computers. And, actually ,
I found CLI is sometimes more efficient way of doing something than crawling through menus, submenus and tabs.
5 – Linux is still too geeky.
That’s true if you’re talking Arch or Slackware.
We are talking about Linux for average user and there are PCLinuxOS, Ubuntu and Mandriva for them.
======================================================
ZDnet author may have some experience in techical writing but certainly not in social psychology.
Fortunately, average computer user DOES NOT READ ZDNET BLOGS.
Edited 2007-05-22 04:46
Well, there is a slight problem I’ve seen with people responding to new users’ requests for help with nonfunctional hardware, then. “Have you tried PCLinuxOS? Have you tried Kanotix? Have you tried Elive? Why not try Debian? How about Kubuntu?”
I’ve seen it happen when Ubuntu randomly doesn’t seem to recognize what should be a well-supported piece of hardware.
On that note, I would normally agree with you except every single time a major linux distro is released I end up seeing reviews and comments here saying “Well, I wanted to like Fedora, but the LiveCD wouldn’t even boot” or “It couldn’t recognize my hard drive, end of story” or “Performed admirably but I could never get wireless internet working, so it gets a 2/10” or “I got a black screen every time it tried to start X” or “How did they think they could get away with the installer not installing a kernel?”. It makes me wonder what the heck is going on.
This is STILL a major problem, because every time this happens you know this person is going to tell all the friends who wanted to know how that Linux thing went, that Linux is a total piece of garbage.
One of these days I’m going to have to try that, because at the moment I prefer the command line to mucking around in Thunar or Konqueror. I may have to turn off thumbnails so they load faster.
Needless to say, while I’m glad it’s no longer necessary, it better not completely disappear.
Oh, and for everyone saying the terminal isn’t bad… well, no it isn’t, but it LOOKS scary, and gives the impression that you’re tampering with vital parts of the system that are so old and fragile that you have to use DOS to get at them. Oh, and it’s a nice black box where you can’t see where you are and what you’re doing, as compared to a file manager.
At least that’s how I suspect the thinking goes.
I’ve seen that complaint leveled at Ubuntu, too. Generally ‘geeky’ is anything that you have to ask a geek how to do because you’ve never seen it before, and this includes running Synaptic and adding repositories.
In closing, I doubt Linux will really get anywhere until it’s the sort of thing a Windows poweruser can pop into the CD tray, install, and configure, in total isolation.
I was involved in a discussion with someone who was interested in switching to Ubuntu because they hate Windows, but prefaced their request with a note that they’d already tried Mac OS X and it was too different and he hated it.
Fortunately, we have LiveCDs for him to test.
Edited 2007-05-22 15:50
http://unixadventures.blogspot.com/2007/05/in-response-to-zdnet-blo…
“Windows users are having a hard enough time now figuring out whether they should go for Vista Home Basic or Home Premium”
Pfft no they don’t most windows users buy OEM and don’t care apart from price. Note this is where sales men come in and take your money which they are really good at doing.
“And how many will eventually give up and install Windows onto them?”
Quite a few. How many will complain at dell why cant they install windows software on it… 90% of them.
Unless their life depend on it. Average Joe will not invest time and money to figure out how to use Linux.
Time = Money
The more time time you use to learn Linux, the more money you waste.
A few hundreds dollars more to have everything pre-install is cheaper.
Your right, thats why they modded you down (sadly)
but I’m brave and I will say it. Yes Time is money.
Ubuntu on Dell is brave (and proper) Real World (TM) start for Linux based Operating systems in front of mainstream general users (…and productives as well)
“Time = Money”
Not really but there are probably a lot of things the average user would rather spend their time doing than learning to use an Operating System.
“The more time time you use to learn Linux, the more money you waste.”
People do a lot of things for other reasons than monetary gain. You don’t make a lot of money watching TV or working in the garden yet a lot of people do it.
If you can get someone interested in computers or convince them that there is a long-term gain (monetary or otherwise) from learning Linux it’s no longer a waste of time.
Edited 2007-05-22 06:03
These are facts and I can’t deny the author is mostly right.
…however, the good thing is that Ubuntu improves and becomes more popular at each version. So maybe some points in this article will become less and less relevant.
Time.
“Why is it that the average computer user still chooses to spend hundreds of dollars on Windows”
Okay, I stopped reading there.
The average computer user usually does not CHOOSE to use Windows. It usually is forced on them in one way or another (pre-installed, forced by the workplace, they are not aware of anything else, …)
Not that I think that the article cannot have good points… but as an intro, that’s a turn-off.
“Why is it that the average computer user still chooses to spend hundreds of dollars on Windows”
Most people i know (that i can call an average computer user) don’t know what Linux is, or what an OS is for that matter.
They will just use whatever came with their PC until some friend installs a newer (windows) version or they get a new PC.
These are the facts as i see them.
They always start flame wars of people who all think they have the perfect answer.
I’ve really come to dislike the mentality that comes in the box when you go the Linux route… Once people understand a thing or two, everyone on Window’s become an idiot. What about people that work for a living and have families and things that aren’t there computers, yet hold high degree’s in computer related fields? I know lot’s of them exist, but they don’t use Linux because at the end of the day they want to come home and have things work so they can move on with the rest of their life.. Nothing about that is stupid / idiotic / lower IQ.
I take your point about Linux users and elitism, but you should notice that some of us aren’t elitists.
Also, some of us prefer Linux because it allows us to get our work done by having things work so that we can move on with the rest of our lives. That isn’t untrue, it’s simply a different eXPerience.
get by on the grace of idiots like me who fix and help with every problem they run into. The Windows users are content because they’ve someone to turn to (mostly for free, too). And there’s a lot of us.
If we massively start refusing to support Windows systems for family and friends, let’s see how “content” the average Windows users stays.
I agree, it’s a social phenomenon.
Most computer users have no idea how the system works.
If they screw up, they turn to their geek friends for help.
Windows’ real advantage isn’t the hand holding of the operating system itself but the amount of people who use it.
Helping people with Windows if you don’t use it is just as painful as helping people with Linux if you don’t use it.
I remember helping a friend to do some work in Office 03 or something and I was almost tearing my hair out because of all the seriously f*cked up menus.
A well-written article. It’s short enough to go to the point and state things Linux community doesn’t want to hear.
Dear Joe User,
I understand that you are using an legacy OS at the moment, and probably a crippled one. You have the opportunity today to use a modern operating system *every day*. Unlike alternative platforms Linux OS is futureproof. Want the WOW of a compositing Desktop *NOW*. In a few clicks you too can be part of the most cutting edge computing today
Even though there are lots of choices of Linux today, these are geared towards everything from running on routers, to working on low powered computers, to localized versions. *You* have the choice from a Mainstream Distributer, geared towards Desktop use. The choices are between Ubuntu and Fedora although as skills develop you may want to try a Distribution more tailored to your needs.
The major think you can look forward to is Hardware that *works*. Every type of hardware is supported under Linux. How many times have we heard the phrase “its the drivers”…well no more. Shopping for computer hardware is daunting at best, but with Linux lists of Hardware that works…you know that you have made a good buy. Unlike other OS’s, where you have to download drivers and have to pay for them, Linux because the drivers are all programmed together, enjoy greater compatibility…and getting the latest Drivers is part of comes curtsy of Linux;s superior automated upgrade capabilities.
Linux unlike other OS’s has functionality included as default. Everything from Internet Servers to File Servers all easily manageable at the touch of a button.
For power users a powerful command line shell available to every user, at know extra cost, currently only available only on others High end OS’s
Linux is for *YOU*.
Best regards
TUX
I’m tired of silly little articles that point out the obvious. Inertia is a problem in any industry, but it is the only valid point. Its even a problem for Microsoft. The last two are just silly little lies that he should know better than to spread, long gone are computers exclusive to geeks(sic) they are part of out everyday lifes, and as for arguing against a powerful CLI environment vs none, or simply against choice of vendor vs crippleware thats just nonsense. Hardware support is an issue, but that should apply mainly for no cost migration, and compatibility lists are all over the place.
Linux has real problems with adoption, one being an awful lot haven’t even heard of it, but this is neither the list that either points out whats wrong, or points to a real solution. Linux is growing, but is nowhere near any mythical tipping point.
In the meantime opensource Nvidia cards are around the corner, support for r500+ cards. Xorg is finally getting rid of xord.conf. Wireless support improves yet again with kernel 2.6.22, and well everything else on top just keeps getting better, and you only have to push a button to enjoy it all.
Desktop Linux is behind the competition in literally every way. If you want the WOW of a text only install, or the BLING of 8way SMP then that is something you can get on linux. Face it, desktop compositing that works on a handful of vid cards, poor integration across the board are not selling points when everyone else does it, and does it better.
Joe doesnt WANT choice, he wants the ability to download software on any website and have it work on his OS.
Linux drivers are typically shoddy versions of the official ones. Since its not the drivers fault anymore, why do I get shoddy performance out of my sound card, so bad that I am completely unable to do multi-track recording on audacity do to insanely high latency, while using the SAME app on windows works perfectly fine? Why do I get a tenth of the framerate on 3d games on linux then I do on windows using the same vid card? Why am I unable to use my wireless card or integrated modem without jumping through an incredible amount of hoops? is it that there is still driver problems, or is it that linux blows?
Oh yeah, and both windows and mac update drivers automatically too.
Joe doesnt give a flying crap about servers of any kind. Joe is terrified of the command line, and is ecstatic about how you no longer have to use it in windows or mac. Joe in fact can’t even connect to the web because of how he uses DSL and can’t find the information necessary to guide him through pppoeconf.
This list (and your letter) do an excellent job of illustrating how the strengths of linux are completely irrelevant to the average person, and how the weaknesses in Desktop linux are still enough to keep that average person from using what is literally being given away for free. Of course, linux is easy as pie now for you, me, and anyone who would post on a place like osnews. But people who make up the vast majority of the computing world would look at us real funny as we explained how we spend our free time bitching about how one OS is better then the other.
Desktop linux now is lightyears ahead of what it was when I first started using the OS about 8 years ago. The speed of improvement, especially over the last few years has been startling, but the competition has not been standing still, and for desktop use, linux is still a distant third in providing what normal people want.
Gotta love the linux community in osnews, point out glaring flaws in their arguements and you get modded down and ignored. Post something that praises linux while completely ignoring the article, and you get +5.
How about this.
Linux is WICKED-COOL! It totally satisfys my needs in EVERY way, and can do the same for everyone on the planet. The ONLY reason noone uses this free operating system is because MICRO$OFT keeps them from using it. The author of this article is an idiot, how dare he say that linux isnt perfect in every situation? Its not because of any definincy in what it offers, it is because of the worldwide addiction to winblows.
That will give me a +5 for sure….
Could you give examples of how Desktop Linux is behind the competition in every way. I would be happy to hear them. What is interesting to note is that in reality the desktop experience on Microsoft is very similar to that of 98. Interestingly the example you chose was compositing desktop, which unlike competing OS’s will work on even on intel915 chipsets the most common graphics chip worldwide. It is the only platform that offers two choices of competing integrated desktop solutions KDE and Gnome, both of which are more complete than any competing platform. Although I would love you to explain the word “better”.
You get better performance in games even under wine than you do on the competing platform, You are simply a liar. Graphics is a good area that shows collaboration, reverse-engineering tools created for nouveau are being used for r500+ cards; how xv is being implemented by intel; is being used for the radeon cards; the software rendering being discussed for the cell chips in the PS3 has shown similar techniques can be applied to other chips etc etc. Linux drivers are commonly more stable; futureproved than any counterpart.
Its true Joe is not interested in many functionality of that the Linux desktop has to offer him. Although I’m sure would appreciate a fully functioning product rather that a crippled one.
I’m going to be absolutely honest now. I have never used pppoeconf…just don’t know what it is. Functionally modern modems look very similar on both windows and Linux. Powerful commands on there own simply come with a Gui. People use the command line mainly in Linux to put together basic powerful tools. In fact its trivial to create a front-end for these tools.
My letter wasn’t to illustrate the strengths of Linux is was in direct response to an article, to show how these points are not really weaknesses. If you say they do not matter then your point is with the article not me.
Linux is maturing, but Microsoft is standing still, and with Vista has moved back esp in the area of performance in 3D; application performance; network performance; compatibility; application support; market share etc etc with all groundbreaking improvements dropped or a shadow of there former self. Microsoft is stuck in time warp I cannot see it escaping from. Its reached an evolutionary dead end. its lost its two stars Office and Internet Explorer.
If I was selling Linux to Joe(sic). I’d argue he is better using a modern OS than one from last year.
Edited 2007-05-22 17:13
Ive really missed argueing at the end of threads with you cyclops 😉
I can go out and buy a generic vid card and have it give decent 3d accell on windows. If I don’t buy NVidia, I can’t. Beagle is great and all, but it isnt anywhere near as integrated as windows search, let alone spotlight. Integration in a general sense is rather poor on linux, unless you choose to go the KDE way, which is only (at most) a third of the userbase.
I was disappointed that Vista had a 40% drop in speed and more on X86 Vista over XP. These are still in fact slower than that of Linux.
I’m glad you are enjoying search as that must have feature. I have never used beagle or similar on linux so I just wouldn’t know. The last time I remember searching was on XP and it was a painful experience at best. The little dog offered nothing more than to increase my frustration.
Integration in every sense is excellent on Linux. I actually use XFCE4 the most minimal of the three desktops, and everything seems pretty integrated to me…perhaps you should explain it better.
My laptop, which has an ATI integrated chipset, would like to disagree with you. Intel is also nicely supported on Linux.
That is a matter of opinion, not fact.
Again, a matter of opinion. I feel that my Kubuntu desktop is *more* integrated than a Windows PC.
Sources, please (about KDE representing 1/3 of the userbase)?
I am talking from personal experience. My last PC had an ATi vid card, and I was using linux full time, as I was a J2EE dev, and I hated XP. I tried everything under the sun to get enemy-territory working right (that was my drug of choice back then), and after an insane amount of tweaking that no average user could be expected to do, I got hardware 3d going. But even then, the performance was poor, and it was quite crashy (to be fair, ati drivers on windows crash too, but this was quite frequent). I ended up biting the bullet and dual-booting xp for games, and i got about 50% higher framerate, with nowhere near the trouble.
If things are different now, I stand corrected, but this was a bit more then a year and a half ago.
On windows, anything that searches plugs into windows search. On mac, they have started taking advantage of it in new ways. In linux, you have a single search tool.
You know I said KDE being the exception, because you responded to it just below. KDE apps are well integrated for the same reason that microsoft apps are, they are completely component based. (KDE copied ms in this, however they have done a better job. The COM implementation on KDE is very clean, and they havnt switched horses every few years the way MS has).
I have no sources, just based on interactions with linux users online, and distro stats. I would put KDE at about 25-30%, GNOME at 40-50%, and others (including XFCE) at about 25-30%. I freely admit, I am pulling these numbers out of my ass, but again, it is based on what I have seen. If RH, Fedora, and Ubuntu didnt push gnome so hard, It would probably be a different story.
Actually, they are. ATI drivers have improved quite a bit over the past eighteen months. That said, there is still a performance gap compared to the Windows drivers…the good news is that AMD (who now owns ATI) has pledged to provide open drivers soon – which means we should get improved performance as well.
That is a valid point, though I believe it will be adressed in KDE 4.
Sample bias is a dangerous thing…my own experience tends to make me believe that KDE is actually more popular than Gnome.
Ubuntu is gnome-based, but it’s so easy to switch to KDE (and/or install Kubuntu) that I’d be really curious to see DE numbers for that distro.
For some reason, osn chopped off most of my reply, only most of the first paragraph seems to have made it.
There is the driver issue, using the latest nvidia drivers installed via the rockin brand new ui for such things in ubuntu, I get compositing, but an absolutely horrible framerate when i try testing against anything, from glxgears to tux racer. On vista, with the very same card (geforce go 7600) i can play the latest and greatest games on close to the highest settings with no problems. So why can I have something like FEAR maxed in windows, while linux chokes on tux racer if there is no longer any driver issues.
We are talking about Joe User now, not what is being done in labs, or what will be done years from now. For the average user, graphical performance in linux sucks. Not that there is really any need for it beyond stuff like desktop compositing, but this is a driver problem which aparently no longer exists.
And why is my sound card unusable for recording in linux?
That is pretty much my beef with the origional post.
if you tell me that due to drm restrictions, features x, y, and z are crippled in vista, we have been over this already ad-nausium.
DRM restrictions are evil, but they only come into play when viewing protected content. Using Vista while not viewing protected content will give you full performance and features from your hardware. These restrictions come into play on anything that plays HD content, from TVs, to players, to speakers. The MPAA has decided to completely control every aspect of what is allowed to play the new formats. If you want to say its wrong for them to do this, I will agree. What is in vista is the same thing as what every home entertainment manufacturer has gone through to comply with the latest DRM in digital media. If you don’t like it, boycott it. However, if you dont care, then Vista gives you the *ability* to view such content, which no other OS currently does.
I used pppoeconf as an example. While there are far fewer then there used to be, there are still times that you are required to drop into the commandline, and that is a show stopper for Joe User. You are right when you say that writing a gui for it is trivial (I’m actually considering throwing something together for it on ubuntu, all it really does is generate a file), however the lack of these trivial things will keep the average Joe from adopting linux. You don’t notice it, and neither do I, which is why this was a good article.
You did not address how the normal user is satisfied with windows, in fact you imply that they arent. You don’t address how the average user is ecstatic about how the commandline is not required to use or configure the other two big operating systems, you just ignore it and say its great. You say that many distros is a plus, while ignoring that its compatibility that users want, and for every major distro there is an incompatible packaging system. You don’t address that there is next to no commercial support for users who will alwas look on boxes to determine if the hardware/software will run on their system.
That is pretty much the whole article, you plow through the points he made while making your own. The entire linux community loves to do this, and thats why you still can’t give it away to mr joe average.
We have talked about this in previous posts. Vista is a raging success with the average users, there was that article the other day that said in the first hundred days it sold more then the entire userbase of apple, let alone linux. You can say “inertia” all you want, but a bad product will have a negative effect, no matter how small, on inertia. However, what the facts say is that twice the copies sold then the last launch of windows, blowing away both internal microsoft predictions, and external market predictions.
Even if what you say is true about various levels in performance, running the newest most popular version of linux and the newest version of windows on the same machine with the same hardware, I can say that some things (like application performance) are so similar you cant tell the difference. Others (like video/sound performance) are bad to the point of not being usable on linux, while working as expected on vista.
And IE7 is a very good browser, offering tabs, plugins, and a very good security archetecture, all with a lower footprint then FF. I still perfer FF, but as someone who violently hated dealing with IE6 every day, IE7 is a collosal improvement. As for office, everything I have read says that 2k7 has had strong sales, not as good as vista, but still better then expected. I have played with the demo that came on my PC, and the UI is incredably well done, and the speed of the app considering its size is really incredable. I am not one to get excited by office software, but I really hope that MS brings the same ideas they used to deal with the Office ui into the next version of Visual Studio.
IMHO, Solaris is hands down the most modern OS on the planet, but I would NEVER recommend its use to good ol’ Joe. Joe doesnt care about hotswapping CPUs, he only cares about being able to use the os while being forced to learn as little about it as possible. Linux is still a distant third in this respect. That isnt slamming it, I have nothing but good things to saw about it in a general way, and have been enjoying mucking around with it for about 8 years now. I will alwas recommend it to people who enjoy learning the internals of how things work, but I would NEVER recommend it to Joe user.
Look at the article again, critism is not nessicarily bad.
I’m glad that your graphics card works differently to all those other nvidia graphics cards under Vista on every Benchmark on the Internet maybe you are using a *Magic* graphic card from pixie land. Seriously though. Magic, sprinkled with pixie dust. Again, graphics performance is *faster* under Linux, and performace for everything is faster under XP by every benchmark.
When I refer to crippled I mean functionality cut from the OS Like. “minus BitLocker hard drive encryption, full system backup, the ability to join a domain, user group policy support, Windows Fax and Scan, shadow copy, corporate roaming, the offline files and folders feature, Remote Desktop, Windows premium games, scheduled backups, network backups, Windows Aero, Media Center, Flip 3D navigation, Windows Meeting Space, tablet PC support, SideShow, DVD Maker, and high definition (HD) support for Windows Movie Maker.”
but I see what you mean I could have said crippled by DRM or even crippled because of performance, but then it is so crippled in every way its so hard to tell. Its odd that under Media Center you cannot record content that you can under MythTV under linux from a TV card…is that what you mean I’m confused. DRM allows you to play less your way.
The command line is as I have always said simply, a tool for advance users. Like regedit on windows, msconfig etc etc only useful. This advantage over Microsoft is getting less as gradually Microsoft catch up with impowing their command line, but its a power users toy.
I addressed everything in my letter…that was the point of it. Saying I didn’t doesn’t make it true.
I will make one thing clear there is no Linux(community) there may be at best a collection of development communities and Linux Users and Consulting Companies to provide support, or Distribution Companies who put together a collection of programs for you. The point of the article was to well *misguide* users about Linux. The truth is Linux can fulfill users needs better than any competing platform.
I talk nothing about Vista’s sales. I simply point out the truth ask anyone doesn’t matter how technical, what Vista *really* gives them over *98se*, and the answer is not a lot. The Desktop is mature. XP offered stability, and then what. Have the tools changed or been moved around. The depressing fact little has happened on the Microsoft Platform for 9 years, and nothing will happen for another two. Its dull…thats part of its appeal to some. The point had nothing to do with its failure, but everything to do with Satisfaction, BTW could you point to the exact figures for Linux installs, because I bet those do not exist even roughly. BTW why is Steve the CEO of Microsoft saying Vista sales have been less then expected, maybe he doesn’t know the sales figures.
Sound/Graphics performance work well under Vista!? is clearly different from what NVidia, currently being sued over performance from its users, and Creative publicly stated that is still completing its drivers for Vista, and the massive performance losses across the board. Clearly your talking about fantasy Vista which one is that?
I mentioned Office and Internet explorer because they used to be killer applications that restricted users to the Microsoft platform. That is simply not true anymore as Linux has better applications for Office and Browsing. You can see how arguments now state Photoshop as Microsoft’s Killer Application, which is getting increasing weak.
Ubuntu came out last month. It will have 5 more releases by Microsoft’s preliminary schedule for Vista2. Its simply the most modern OS on the Market accessible to users today, and every day Vista will look older and slower and buggier. DRM restrictions should start to trickle in through that time too as “premium content”(sic) becomes more available.
The article doesn’t criticize it misleads.
When glxgears are going slow as molasses, yet FEAR runs perfectly fine, there is a problem. I havent messed with anything, as I don’t really care about good FPS in linux, however using the methods supplied by both operating systems, one works great, the other barely works.
Next time you should specify windows basic.
So, the average home user sets up MythTV on their linux box as a DVR? If they did, TiVo would be out of business. This is irrelivent to the discussion.
In linux, it is not just a power users toy, it is the only way to get many things done (like connecting to the internet if you use dsl).
by that reasoning, everyone would still be using windows 95 (98 didnt really offer THAT much more). Microsoft has traditionally had a very hard time getting users to upgrade windows, which is why Office has alwas been the cash cow. Compared to previous windows versions, Vista is breaking the trend.
You are right, there arent any exact figures. Most people put linux from 10-25% of the server market, and 2-5% of the global market. These arent exact figures, but its a general concencus.
As for why I say that the sales are doing well,
http://www.informationweek.com/windows/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid…
http://www.itjungle.com/two/two050207-story03.html
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/309041_vistasales27.html
http://www.windowsitpro.com/Article/ArticleID/95578/95578.html
http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/winvista_100days.asp
…to name a few. Sales have exceeded both MS and wallstreets predictions, and have broken the previous record held by windows 2000. These figures are debated in places like this, because linux fanbois simply can not believe this to be the case. So they bring up things like the market being larger nowadays then in the time of xp. However…
“But don’t take Microsoft’s word for it. Gartner claims that Windows Vista will be installed on 4.2 percent of all business computers by the end of 2007. IDC has estimated the number at 5 percent. Meanwhile, Windows 2000 was installed on 2.6 percent of all business computers after a year on the market. Note that these figures are based on percentages of the overall market: Vista isn’t getting an artificial boost because the PC market is larger today. Additionally, Information Week Research says that 25 percent of 612 businesses it surveyed are deploying Windows Vista now, and an additional 17 percent will begin deployments by the end of the year. That, too, is much higher than previous Windows versions, according to the publication.”
… to quote thurott (I know he is a zealot, but he tends to get his facts straight, if not his opinions.)
The first point of the article was customer satisfaction with windows. If you look at places like here or slashdot, you will think that people hate it. If you look at the real world figures, Vista is a huge success.
A month ago, I was getting only slightly better performance out of my video card on windows then i currently am on linux. Now, XP out performs it only slightly. The lawsuit was because NVidia was not ready when Vista went gold, and they have no excuse for that. I don’t think anyone seriously expects the suit to go anywhere besides making a point, but the problems are gone now for the majority of nvidia users.
As for creative, I don’t have a creative sound card, I have a crappy conextant high def integrated card. However, I have passable performance with it on vista, and unusable performance on Linux. This, once again, means driver problems.
You are right with browsing, you are not right with office. OO.o is Good Enough for most needs, but you want Office for professional use.
It is funny that you point out killer applications, as due to the minute commercial support of linux, there are zero killer applications outside of the scientific world.
“Modern” has more to do with release date, and nothing to do with how usable it is for the average user.
You keep saying that, but I have yet to hear anything from you that refutes his five points. People wont use linux because of the quality (or lack thereof) of vista, people will use it based on where it stands. I was only using comparisons to vista as a barometer that quite frankly gave linux an unfair advantage, as XP is what most people use currently, and has been patched/optimized for seven years. The points the author brought up were valid, and are part of the reason that people are switching alot more often to the mac then to linux.
The reality is Vista runs games 40% slower and even slower under 64bit than Linux.
Vista supplies increasingly crippled versions of its OS and you have to pay $700 to buy the least crippled version, and that is still license crippled. Linux is simple a fully functioning product regardless of vendor.
I use dsl on linux. I simply plugged my modem/router/gateway into Ubuntu and it just worked. It took me hours to set up on XP. Technical support made me go into a basic command line and type “ifconfig /flushdns” and “ifconfig /reset logfile.txt” I forget the exact command etc etc I was in Technical support for 2 days. My modem/gateway/router actually uses Linux.
I’m glad we got the figures for Linux, at 5% of the market share that would mean that Linux is installed on 50million computer as there are over a billion computers worldwide. Vista has sold to date, but not installed 40million licenses in 7 months. Its not unreasonable to say Apple have 4% market share. Thats another 40million computers. Yet you said it had sold more. Its not complicated maths. Vista *will* sell more than Linux+Apple but has a long way to do so. In the meantime Ubuntu+Apple with have a new OS by then. Again why did Steve say that Vista sold below expectations is the CEO of Microsoft wrong!? Why are all these computer manufactures laying off workers originally taken on to deal with Vista’s high demand. You have to remember the number of computers is growing all the time.
I do find it ironic that you excuse continuing problems with drivers well documented on Vista everywhere. You will say next that using OpenAL is an intentional choice. Yet you point to problems that supposedly you are having that are not common to Linux. regardless of any double standard.
I always find it funny when you mention catchphases like “professional”. You would be pushed to argue that StarOffice wasn’t professional, but then again we are talking about average joe. I’m also a little surprised that you say Linux has no commercial support when IBM have invested 2Billion in Linux etc etc. Although I am happy for you to list Microsoft’s Killer apps for the Average Joe. Although Beryl I would say Beryl is.
Ubuntu will have at *least* 7.10 a 8.4 a 8.10 a 9.4 before vista2 is released Vista is simply last years OS, and offers little improvement over its previous offering of XP now pushing 6 years old.
People are using Linux because of the lack of quality of Vista. Users currently using XP are using a 6 year old OS those using Vista are using a 6month old OS both of these OS’s continue to Age while Linux remains fresh. If you buy a new machine the chances are you will get a crippled Vista along with it, becuase thats how Microsoft sell, their whole licensing and business model and marketing is wrapped around this, and it is a successful way of maintaining a monopoly.
Edited 2007-05-23 09:41
The confusion behind the number of linux distributions would vaporise if we had one distribution with a strong established brand name, Joe Avrage would be accustomed with the brand and won’t care what’s kernel name.
It seems to be that many people have missed the point of a computer. It is not something to take up your time having to learn to use it and fix problem, it’s meant to increase your productivity. It to help you create documents and perform calculations. They are tools like a pen and paper. Why would you buy a pen which you have to relearn to use? Unless it’s a pen which would spell check and format your documents for you, you wouldn’t. 90% of people who use computer use them to get a job done not because they want to learn about it.
This is also the reason why it takes so long for Apple to regain market share. Few people see enough of an advantage to try something else when they might have to spend so much time relearning what they can already do.
I still use emacs and not vi, not because I think it’s better but because I know how to get it to do what I want and vi doesn’t have anything that I really think will help me. I did spend the time to learn how to use XCode because it provides me with things which I know make me more productive.
This is the real problem with linux. It’s written by people who like to fix and tinker with things. The type of people who want to know how there bic pen works. They don’t use windows because it’s rubbish but because there isn’t much you can tinker with in it. You cannot see how the memory manager really works and replace it with your own. You cannot spend hours finding the bug in the driver you downloaded and couldn’t get working.
They only reason Apple and Linux gain any market share are because people finally see that moving to one of these will stop them from wasting time with support calls.
…that most of the average computer users are part of an IT department. Myself, having been in IT for the past 15 years, I have not had to buy an OS, yet. It all started with Windows 3.x all the way up to Windows XP. Along the way I was tinkering with Linux as an afterthought only because my job does not require open source knowledge.
Sadly, AFAIK (correct me if I’m wrong), it’s essentially impossible for hardware manufacturers to include Linux drivers with their products. Based on what I’ve read, if you want to make your device Linux compatible, you would have to write an open source driver, contribute it the the Linux kernel, hope it gets accepted, wait for the next version of the kernel that includes it, wait for that version to be included in major distros, and wait for people to upgrade, all the while your Windows driver could be installed with several mouse clicks.
That, above all else, is what’s killing Linux, IMO.
“Sadly, AFAIK (correct me if I’m wrong), it’s essentially impossible for hardware manufacturers to include Linux drivers with their products.”
http://ati.de/support/driver.html
😉
The first point that most users don’t really hate windows is the key point. Oh sure, some might be annoyed by spyware or this or that, but in the whole, they get things done with Windows.
The easiest question to ask is why would someone switch? Most get windows preinstalled or pirated. The same goes for their windows apps. Not to mention any open source applications (you know…the things people actually use, like firefox) are easily available for windows.
“The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves.”
Finally, someone who isn’t blaming Linux’s lack of success on corporate inertia or fictional monopolies or enduser ignorance or enduser stupidity or corporate greed or enduser inability to see the copyleft as the will of God.
If you want to see Linux grow, you’ll have to look internally, not externally, for the reasons it hasn’t been adopted. (Of course, that’s only for the part of the community that wants to see Linux grow. Some think that the barrier for entry into the Linux field has been set too low already…)
“Finally, someone who isn’t blaming Linux’s lack of success on corporate inertia or fictional monopolies or enduser ignorance or enduser stupidity or corporate greed or enduser inability to see the copyleft as the will of God.”
I would quote more…but I’m still in awe of the phrase “fictional monopoly”
IBM: $91B/year
Microsoft: $44B/year
Apple: $19B/year
Sun: $4B/year
Red Hat: $1B/year
Novell: $1B/year
Not even counting companies who do other OSs as a ‘side project’ (such as HP), their market share is just above a quarter of the market.
If Microsoft has a monopoly — that is, they have such total control over a market that new players cannot enter — then how is it that everyone else is making so much money?
Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. Here are the REAL top five reasons most people don’t buy Linux instead of Windows or Mac.
1) It is hard to find pre-installed Linux on NAME brand PCs.
2) It is hard to find pre-installed Linux on NAME brand PCs.
3) It is hard to find pre-installed Linux on NAME brand PCs.
4) It is hard to find pre-installed Linux on NAME brand PCs.
5) It is hard to find pre-installed Linux on NAME brand PCs.
You may have started to noticed a pattern here. MORE THAN ANYTHING Microsoft knows what it is doing by keeping Linux off of pre-installed computers in stores where people go and buy their computers. THIS IS WHAT is stopping Linux from getting a bigger market share.
Until this changes, Linux will not jump in “market share”. Seriously, it IS that simple. Anyone that doesn’t understand that has never talked to “real” John and Jane Doe computer buyers. Look at where they buy computers. Look at what choices they have.
They do NOT want to buy their first Linux computer over the internet.
They want to be able to go into a store and touch the Linux computers. They –want– regularly scheduled classes they do –not– have to sign up for but can drop in and watch as someone goes through for the thousandth time exactly how you do all the normal stuff they do on their computer at home. Until then, they will not be sure the stuff they do works on Linux.
They want to be able to bring their digital camera into the store and plug it into a Linux computer. Does it recognize their camera? Their printer? Their video camera? If not, does it take more than TWO CLICKSS to find and install the drivers? If not, they will not buy it.
Before the above happens, Linux market share will not jump up.
The question is not “what keeps people from using Linux?” but “what keeps them from getting rid of windows?”. The answer is evident: applications. I don’t mean chat clients, web browsers and all that stuff people use in their spare time, but those niche, professional applications people need for their jobs and studies.
I tired of hearing about how easy/difficult it is to dad, mom or granny to use Linux. Those user needs are mostly met. But take a typical argument: “there’s no Photoshop for Linux, nor anything quite equivalent”. The typical answer is “most people don’t really need Photoshop”. Well, the problem is SOME people ABSOLUTELY need Photoshop for their jobs. And them, some other “minority” people need AutoCAD, or LabView,.. you name it. If you add up all those minorities, you’ll see that most people can’t get rid of Windows, so why would they use Linux then.
When a software platform has more than 90% of the user base, it becomes a de-facto standard, and it’s VERY difficult to overthrow. Any incompatibility plays in their favor; any piece of hardware they don’t support is useless hardware. Anyone interested in using Linux full-time should realize this, and should hope for Linux to eat as much user base from Windows as possible.
So, IMO the roadmap should be, from shorter to longer term :
1)Improve virtualization, so that Windows can be used inside Linux, instead of dual booting. This won’t directly reduce Windows use, but will make people more acquainted to Linux and its native applications. It will let them forget about anti-malware apps and take Windows less seriously.
2) Keep working on Wine, so that Windows apps can be used without a Windows license.
3) Try to make Linux a stable platform, or at least keep some stable branches. IIRC, Red Hat tends to use old kernels and even retrofits improvements into them. LSB may also help. Make it easy to have old versions of libraries along with new ones.
4) Stress the importance of open formats and protocols, even for proprietary applications. Make a point of the long-term durability and accessibility of important data.
5) Try to convince the public administration to use FOSS, as done in Extremadura, Munich and elsewhere. Point out that most of the “costs” are not wasted, as when buying proprietary software, but invested in local IT development.
6) Try to convince public universities to use FOSS programs. If none is available for the required functionality, let them make collaborative projects whereby software engineering universities are paid to develop specific FOSS applications for other (non-IT) universities to use in teaching. Make this collaborative net worldwide whenever possible, but also adapted to local needs. The applications students learn to use tend to be the ones they will use as professionals.
That should be a beginning
For every linux distro out there, another setup is there. It is dumb to have a distro that uses directory x for program a & another use directory y for the same program. Why is it like this? Linux should have a directory standard, it is like each distro programer never talks to another about standards. I mean why not have a application directory where the apps. in all distros go? One more thing who ever said they don’t want new users dumbing up the forums, that is just the aditude that is prob. a major part of people staying away. When PC-BSD gets more mature, I may leave linux behind.
Edited 2007-05-22 17:06
I object to the suggestion that the command line is obsolete. You should be able to do everything with both the command line and a GUI.
The article may or may not have valid points, but is ZDNet.com such a friendly place for Linux? I see ZDNet as just another cog in the Intel/MS infrastructure that is unlikely to shoot itself too far up to foot.
The article may be feeble, but at least it challenges Linux to try harder.
I object to the suggestion that the command line is obsolete. You should be able to do everything with both the command line and a GUI.
This article isn’t about YOU. It’s about THEM. THEY don’t use command lines.
The article may or may not have valid points, but is ZDNet.com such a friendly place for Linux? I see ZDNet as just another cog in the Intel/MS infrastructure that is unlikely to shoot itself too far up to foot.
How is that relevant to the points that the article makes? Are the points valid — or not? Too many Linux devotees try to use the “don’t believe them because they’re associated with the enemy” canard, when they should be focusing on the issues at hand. I think that the author makes a few good points that are difficult to refute.
The article may be feeble, but at least it challenges Linux to try harder.
How is it feeble? I think it made its case pretty well.
Actually, I did refute most of the points early in this discussion.
To focus on a single one, I’ll ask this question: how is Linux support being rarely mentioned on hardware packaging indicative that the Linux community doesn’t understand Joe User?
Refute this: Windows users, by and large, aren’t dissatisfied with Windows. Because everything else doesn’t matter all that much.
“Windows users, by and large, aren’t dissatisfied with Windows. Because everything else doesn’t matter all that much.”
People who can use Linux or an Apple.
Microsoft are on every list as an untrusted company.
Microsoft are already talking about Vista Next 2009.
etc etc
Read it and weep. MSFT is in the top 20 of most admired companies…
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/mostadmired/2007/top20/index…
How does that have any relevance to customer satisfaction with their OS? Oh, right, it doesn’t.
Pathetic.
How does that have any relevance to customer satisfaction with their OS? Oh, right, it doesn’t.
Pathetic.
What’s pathetic is that you didn’t even bother to read at the post that I was responding to. But since I’m in a magnanimous mood, here’s what he said:
“Microsoft are on every list as an untrusted company.”
Which is why I pointed him at the Forbes Most Admired Companies list.
Now, go away, little man.
Forgive me for thinking you were posting on-topic. I should have known better.
That said “untrusted” and “admired” are not antonyms. It is possible to admire the skill it takes to be a great con artist.
As for going away, kiddo, I don’t plan on doing so until you go first.
Edited 2007-05-24 05:04
That said “untrusted” and “admired” are not antonyms. It is possible to admire the skill it takes to be a great con artist.
Keep spinning, archie. I think that most people can draw their own conclusions about what “Most Admired Companies” means, without my having to spell it out for them. Hint: It doesn’t jibe with your conclusion.
You’re the spinner, tomcat, not me. You’re the one peddling Microsoft’s propaganda.
Now, can you show me *one* dictionary that shows “untrusted” and “admired” to be antonyms? Or even “trusted” and “admired” to be synonyms?
Personally, I don’t trust Microsoft at all. I do admire what they’ve been able to achieve, however.
You’re the spinner, tomcat, not me. You’re the one peddling Microsoft’s propaganda.
Nope, I pointed you at a well-documented reference to the fact that Microsoft is an admired company. I know that pisses you off, but that’s too bad: Most people just don’t buy into your rabid, anti-MS screeds. Deal with it.
Looks like I have a mod-stalker. Whoever you are: Get a life.
Post on-topic.
I admire Microsoft more than most.
They are a Monopoly company in a growing market, a position, and because they control the keys to low level technology can simply leverage themselves onto other platforms. They can dictate hardware, software on their platform, and can simply ignore large governments, and they have done this in a relatively short time frame. They command money, and power arguably larger than other companies today, and seem unstoppable. They are consistently crooked and there crimes are either ignored or just vaporize. Their own customers are made to believe they are helpless, and they suppress competition simply by lying about them, creating lock-in, bundled products and defaults, Even invent terms like “naked pc”, “crapletts”, and have a selling model that guarentees that Microsoft is installed on every PC on the planet. They abuse there own customers with spp, drm, activation, wga, oga, with no comeback, as they are completely dependant, and have retarded computing for 10 years.
They are a fantastic company.
Well-documented reference? Please, let’s be serious for a second.
In any case, I see that you didn’t even try to argue that “admired” == “trusted”…I’ll take that as an admission of defeat.
Hey, *you’re* the one linking to articles that show that MS is less appreciated that the average of other surveyed companies, not me.
I think that most people know how to see through your half-hassed propaganda. That would explain your stellar trust rating…
Well-documented reference? Please, let’s be serious for a second.
I knew you weren’t being serious. Thanks for pointing that out.
In any case, I see that you didn’t even try to argue that “admired” == “trusted”…I’ll take that as an admission of defeat.
Given that you haven’t provided any data to substantiate that “admired” corresponds with “untrusted”, I see no reason to argue the converse.
Hey, *you’re* the one linking to articles that show that MS is less appreciated that the average of other surveyed companies, not me.
Nice try, Sophist. It is irrelevant whether Microsoft’s index is equivalent to other surveyed companies. The data doesn’t tell us anything other than there are some people at the margins who aren’t satisfied with Microsoft. But given Microsoft’s absolute index of 70, it’s damned ridiculous of you to try to argue that customers aren’t satisfied with Microsoft. Clearly, they are.
I think that most people know how to see through your half-hassed propaganda.
Hilarious. So, when I take a position that’s contrary to yours, it’s “half-hassed propaganda”; but, when you differ, you’re merely “expressing a viewpoint”? Is that the way that your screwed-up ideology works?
That would explain your stellar trust rating…
LOL, no, down-modding stalkers explain the trust rating. It’s well known around here that the extremists on one side and the other use the rating system to promote CENSORSHIP. Yeah, that’s right: CENSORSHIP. I realize that that’s a bad word when it’s being used against F/OSS disciples but acceptable when applied to people who don’t hate Microosft. Because you and your ilk can’t stand having anyone around who disagrees with your narrow-minded “F/OSS good, Microsoft evil” ideology. Pathetic.
Oh, I was being serious. You weren’t.
Given that you are the one to have equated “admired” with “trusted”, then you should be the one backing up this assertion…but you can’t, and so you won’t.
No, it’s not. It’s entirely relevant.
No, the data tells us that people are less satisfied with Microsoft than they are on average with all the other companies surveyed.
The index has no absolute meaning – it can only be interpreted by comparing it with other results. You are completely wrong about this, and the more you try to argue for it, the deeper the whole you dig yourself in.
No, that’s because you’re spreading half-assed propaganda. If you weren’t spreading half-assed propaganda, then I wouldn’t accuse you of doing that, but you are, so there you go.
Yeah, those who constantly post off-topic messages and indulge in personal attacks (both of which accurately describe most of your posts) constantly complained about being censored.
Try posting on-topic for a change, and you’ll see your posts don’t get modded down.
Ridiculous. There are plenty of people here I disagree with, and I respect their views (Kawai, Platform Agnostic and Cloudy are good examples). Unlike you, they don’t automatically resort to personal attacks when they’re cornered.
Oh, and I don’t think Microsoft is evil. I’ve actually commended many of their products before, and I’ll do so again. It appears that your unbridled fanboyism is blinding you to this simple truth.
Seeing as how I’ve been wiping the floor with your half-baked arguments, you should quit now and avoid any further embarrassment. That is, if your inflated ego can even contemplate not having the last word, despite having lost the debate.
Edited 2007-05-24 21:40
Given that you are the one to have equated “admired” with “trusted”, then you should be the one backing up this assertion…but you can’t, and so you won’t.
I haven’t seen a single shred of proof from you or anyone else that indicates, as the original poster stated, that “Microsoft are on every list as an untrusted company.” The only factual information present in this discussion is my link to Forbes which identifies Microsoft as one of the top 20 admired companies.
ad·mired. v. To have a high opinion of; esteem or respect.
So, until you produce evidence to the contrary, the whole “untrusted” issue is merely a strawman.
No, the data tells us that people are less satisfied with Microsoft than they are on average with all the other companies surveyed.
We’re not talking about other companies here. We’re talking about Microsoft; hence, comparing Microsoft to Apple is irrelevant. Yet another strawman.
No, that’s because you’re spreading half-assed propaganda.
Calling Microsoft “untrusted” is half-assed propaganda from a F/OSS zealot. That you can’t admit it only makes it that much more obvious.
Yeah, those who constantly post off-topic messages and indulge in personal attacks
Pot, meet kettle.
Ridiculous. There are plenty of people here I disagree with, and I respect their views
Of course, that doesn’t stop you from modding them down…
Seeing as how I’ve been wiping the floor with your half-baked arguments
You’re a legend in your own mind…
I haven’t been trying to prove that assertion, because I don’t believe it to be factually correct.
I really don’t care if MS is trusted or not. *My* point was that, from what I see around me and from what I read in the media, it doesn’t seem as if people are satisfied with Windows. I was merely pointing out (correctly) that you cannot say that most people trust Microsoft because it happens to be on a list of admired companies. You could have saved a lot of time just agreeing to that simple, unrefutable point, i.e. that admired does not equate trusted, and vice versa.
I don’t think you know what a strawman means, because, whatever your opinion may be of this, it is *not* a strawman.
All I’m saying is that being on a Most Admired list has no direct relation to how trustworthy you are, because “admired” and “trusted” are not synonyms. Your original argument suggested they were, but they’re not.
Okay, you *really* don’t know what a strawman is. A strawman is a weak or sham argument set up to be easily refuted. That’s not at all what this is; instead, you’re making an assertion and I’m disagreeing with your interpretation.
It’s simple, really. You’re claiming that Microsoft’s index of 70 means that their customers are satisfied, claiming that this represents a good score on an absolute scale. I’m claiming that there is no such absolute scale, that the index (like most indices) can only be interpreted against that of other companies in order to mean anything. Since the average of all other companies surveyed is *higher* than Microsoft’s score, then it follows that its customers *aren’t* that satisfied.
By the way, this is not only my interpretation, but that of the article’s author as well. The article doesn’t try to argue that this is a good score. On the contrary, it tries to explore the reasons behind MS’s low score. Don’t you think the author of the article understands those numbers better than you?
And no, this has nothing to do with a strawman. Sheesh, just when I think you can’t dig yourself a deeper hole, you manage to surprise me…
To be fair, I didn’t call MS “untrusted”, I said you couldn’t say that they are trusted because they are on a Forbes “most admired” list. That’s a logical argument which you have for all practical purposes conceded.
That said, I would probably be of the opinion that MS should not be trusted. That’s not propaganda, by the way: this is my legitimate opinion, which is based on ample precedent. There was a big ol’ trial about this, don’t you remember?
I don’t mod down people I disagree with. I mod down people who post off-topic or abusive messages.
I haven’t seen a single shred of proof from you or anyone else that indicates, as the original poster stated, that “Microsoft are on every list as an untrusted company.”
That’s right. Here is one:
http://www.forrester.com/Research/Document/Excerpt/0,7211,38694,00….
“The 2005 Technology Brand Scorecard
EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
In a reversal of the 2003 brand scorecard results, the past two years saw most device manufacturers’ brand trust fall; only Apple and TiVo saw their brand trust rise. While brand trust dropped overall, there is tremendous variation in brand trust and in brand potential. In Forrester’s brand scorecard analysis, Bose, Dell, Hewlett-Packard, Panasonic, and Sony earn highest marks, while Microsoft, Gateway, and LG Electronics rank lowest. The brand scorecards include profiles of each brand’s regular users and aspiring users, data that holds lessons for marketers seeking to reach new customers.”
Yeah, I figure you’d chicken out of actually answering a direct question…typical. As for myself, I’ll choose a different (and, might I add, nobler) route and actually answer your challenge. It’s actually pretty easy to refute, because until we get hard numbers, it’s simply not a matter of fact but rather of opinion.
Here goes: most people *I* know are dissatisfied with Windows, but put up with it because they feel like they don’t have a choice. They don’t complain about Windows specifically, mind you; rather, they complain about computers in general…but when you take the time to analyze their gripes you realize they are in large part Windows issues.
So, yeah, many people are in fact dissatisfied with Windows, but they don’t necessarily articulate it that way, nor are they necessarily aware of other options.
It’s actually pretty easy to find out how customers feel about Microsoft’s products. Check out http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,131838-page,1/article.html.
But I’m afraid that you’re not going to like the news. Microsoft is still regarded highly by the majority of consumers.
Actually, here’s the subtitle for the article you submitted:
“Microsoft customer satisfaction is down, University of Michigan survey says”
From reading TFA, I can see that Microsoft got a score of 70, which is lower than the average of 73 for all companies surveyed, and 75 for software vendors. Overall, the article focuses on the problems MS has in getting some love.
In other words, the article *you* provided proved my point, and invalidated yours. Bravo.
Not that I don’t appreciate the help, but it really seems as if you should actually read the articles you link to instead of just skimming the numbers in them…
Meanwhile, I’m still waiting for you to respond to my question…I’ll repeat it, since you seem to have a weak short-term memory: how is the fact that you rarely see mention of Linux support on hardware packaging indicative that the Linux community doesn’t understant “Joe User”?
From reading TFA, I can see that Microsoft got a score of 70, which is lower than the average of 73 for all companies surveyed, and 75 for software vendors. Overall, the article focuses on the problems MS has in getting some love.
That doesn’t refute my point that most customers are satisfied with Microsoft.
In other words, the article *you* provided proved my point, and invalidated yours. Bravo.
Wrong. You’re trying apply some kind of relativist logic in comparing MS to other random tech companies, which is bunk. On an absolute scale, customers are satisfied with the company. Nice try.
Not that I don’t appreciate the help, but it really seems as if you should actually read the articles you link to instead of just skimming the numbers in them…
It’s hilarious watching you try to tortuously spin a score of 70 as a “bad thing”. Keep reading. You’ll find that customers rated MS considerably higher than a lot of companies that they deal with on a daily basis. And, when you combine that with the Forbes list, the result is no surprise.
Meanwhile, I’m still waiting for you to respond to my question…I’ll repeat it, since you seem to have a weak short-term memory
There’s nothing wrong with my memory. I simply see very little benefit in allowing you to selectively choose one particular point in the entire article and pretend that it invalidates all of the others.
how is the fact that you rarely see mention of Linux support on hardware packaging indicative that the Linux community doesn’t understant “Joe User”?
Where did I ever agree with that point?
Actually, it does, since the customer satisfaction is lower than the average. Therefore, one could logically claim that people are *less* satisfied about MS than they are about other firms studied.
Only following the bizarre logic of a MS shill would one conclude that *less* satisfied really means *more* satisfied.
On an absolute scale? What scale would that be, exactly? Appreciation and satisfaction *are* relative by very definition.
If the average was 50, then you’d be justified in your arrogance. But when the average is 73, then it’s certainly a bad thing (as in “below average”). This is like saying that having an IQ of 95 is good.
The only spin here is coming from you, I’m afraid…and I don’t think it’s going to convince anyone.
It is called an example. So we know that at least 20% of the article is utter BS. If you re-read my original point, you’ll see that I also challenged the other four points – including “the only one that matters” according to you.
At least you admit that the author completely dropped the ball on 20% of his argument. That’s a start. Perhaps you’ll also concede the other counter-arguments I put forth – though I have a feeling you’d still agree with the article even if only 20% of it was factually correct. After all, you seem to think that a below-average score is a positive thing…
[quote]Ubuntu updates are one such area where you need a high level of know-how to understand what’s going on.[/quote]
When you try to update windows, you have no clue what those are and you don’t even know why you need geniune thingy even you have purchased a license. For Ubuntu, click “Update” button is all that you need where you need to go through almost 10 standard steps to install windows updates. If you rely on Windows Automatic Updates, it’s even worst! Because it updates something that is vulnerable and originally your computer was pretty cool, now it opens a hole for hackers after updating, how good that is?
@Almafeta Servers not Desktops.
@BrendaEM The CLI is not obsolete. The article is wrong, even Microsoft is improving their command line, but this is the Desktop. We should know here what you can do with scripting etc etc. What is wrong is the implication that Linux needs the command line to do everyday tasks like browsing or write a letter in a fully functioning Desktop enviroment, that is the lie.
@Tomacat The article does not mirror the Linux community(sic) understanding of Windows users(sic). It is the usual complaints about linux that have some bases in misrepresentation of Linux from a Microsoft perspective.
We all know the real problem how do you get someone to push a button to remove windows and replace it with Linux. Its nothing to do with *any* of those things in the article, To most users thats terrifying.
Does the average computer user want ads with his WGA?
http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=380
Does the average computer user want trojans with his activation?
http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=390
Many people will switch to Linux, rather than downgrade to Vista. MS is making patent threats because they know people are appalled at their disgusting monopoly. Linux marketshare gains are inevitable.
Many people will switch to Linux, rather than downgrade to Vista.
What’s “many”? Possibly a few thousand, but that’s about it.
“What’s “many”? Possibly a few thousand, but that’s about it.”
Microsoft’s despotic abuse of their victims…….I mean customers is causing people to switch to Linux everyday. Do you think MS will keep their monopoly forever? There will be a steady Windows marketshare decline, millions of people will be using Linux. Silly patent threats will not stop Linux, Vista is unacceptable garbage.
81 reasons to use Linux:
http://productreview.at/shopping.php?buy=Linux
Microsoft’s despotic abuse of their victims…….
Dude, seriously, you need to see a therapist about this whole abuser/victim thing of yours.
I mean customers is causing people to switch to Linux everyday.
You’re really overestimating how many people are actually switching to Linux from Windows. Read the article again. People simply aren’t as dissatisfied with Windows as you think.
Do you think MS will keep their monopoly forever?
It’s going to require some paradigm-shifting technology — ie. radically different computing devices — to cause such a change. And, sorry, Linux ain’t it.
There will be a steady Windows marketshare decline, millions of people will be using Linux.
Wow, so that’s what it looks like in Supreme Dragon-dreamland. Cool. Are there flying cars perhaps, as well? Have fossil fuels been eliminated in your world? LMFAO!
Silly patent threats will not stop Linux, Vista is unacceptable garbage.
I think it’s a little too early to speculate, given that the biggest promoters of Linux (ie. Red Hat and others) have considerable patent liability. Even if Linux won’t “stop”, a patent infringement explosion would put a serious crimp on investment from big tech companies.
“You’re really overestimating how many people are actually switching to Linux from Windows. Read the article again. People simply aren’t as dissatisfied with Windows as you think.”
People are satisfied with Vista? Most computers are infected with Vista, but that does not mean the people that buy the computers are satisfied with that crap.
“It’s going to require some paradigm-shifting technology — ie. radically different computing devices — to cause such a change. And, sorry, Linux ain’t it.”
Linux offers freedom and quality that the MS tyranny cannot match. Everyday there are articles about people switching to Linux, Linux marketshare will steadily rise.
“I think it’s a little too early to speculate, given that the biggest promoters of Linux (ie. Red Hat and others) have considerable patent liability. Even if Linux won’t “stop”, a patent infringement explosion would put a serious crimp on investment from big tech companies.”
Who cares about MS patent FUD?
http://www.enterprisenetworkingplanet.com/netos/article.php/3678771
People are satisfied with Vista?
Maybe you need to take a fundamental course in logic. I didn’t say that. I said that “people simply aren’t as dissatisfied with Windows as you think”. In other words, they may be satisfied — or they may be neutral; but, either way, they aren’t dissatisfied.
Linux offers freedom and quality that the MS tyranny cannot match.
Again, Linux does not represent paradigm-shifting technology. It’s essentially equivalent to functionality that is already present in the dominant desktop OS, so it’s going to have a tough time displacing Windows.
Everyday there are articles about people switching to Linux, Linux marketshare will steadily rise.
I’m beginning to think you’re merely a bot.
Who cares about MS patent FUD?
Personally, I think it’s great that you’re discounting the threat. It’s going to hurt just that much more…
“In other words, they may be satisfied — or they may be neutral; but, either way, they aren’t dissatisfied.”
After spending 5 years and 6 billion dollars, the results seem quite underwhelming. It is truly pitiful.
“Again, Linux does not represent paradigm-shifting technology. It’s essentially equivalent to functionality that is already present in the dominant desktop OS, so it’s going to have a tough time displacing Windows.”
Everything about Windows is anti-consumer: DRM/activation/WGA, EULA, pricing, system requirements, quality, security, freedom. The “paradigm-shifting technology” is the combination of an ultra low quality OS(Vista) and a superior ever improving OS(Linux), that will result in a significant marketshare transformation.
“Personally, I think it’s great that you’re discounting the threat. It’s going to hurt just that much more…”
What threat? The despots won’t even show us these mythical patents they rant about. Software that is so bad they have to scare people to make them use it:
“THE WOW STARTS NOW!”
Joe is a MORON i dont care if linux EVER suits his needs actually i hope it NEVER suits his needs. Who wants a dumbed down operating system that limits what you can do?
I would be happy with a 10-15% market share where linux isnt completely ignored by hardware vendors but does not turn it into windows or osx.
Joe is a MORON i dont care if linux EVER suits his needs actually i hope it NEVER suits his needs. Who wants a dumbed down operating system that limits what you can do? I would be happy with a 10-15% market share where linux isnt completely ignored by hardware vendors but does not turn it into windows or osx.
With comments like these, I wonder why Joe User doesn’t want to become a member of the Linux community …
For those not bothered to read either the article or the verbose arguments, here’s the executive summary:
“But it seems that this thriftiness hasn’t resulted in hordes of users choosing to buy PCs without Windows installed and instead choosing to install Linux instead.”
Cluebolt to Mr Kingsley-Hughes: try finding a mainstream retailer offering a PC without Windows. You can’t choose something that isn’t on offer.
“Name me five bits of hardware that lists Linux as a supported system on the box.”
Once accessory vendors know that people run Linux, they’ll put a Linux logo on the box. Sadly, PCs aren’t generally offered with Linux, so no-one is likely to bother advertising any compatibility. Would they put an Amiga logo on the box, too?
“Problem is, there are some areas of the OS that are still overwhelmingly geeky (for example, updates).”
I would have argued with this before, but the Ubuntu people in particular have scored an own goal here. The update manager is restrictive and the package manager suffers from “kitchen sink” syndrome.
The other points are just background noise, and the author spends one of the three pages on blah.
Cluebolt to Mr Kingsley-Hughes: try finding a mainstream retailer offering a PC without Windows. You can’t choose something that isn’t on offer.
Cluebolt to you: You only get to use this excuse once — and it’s lapsed. Dell already tried selling Linux-based PCs. People didn’t buy them. Dell is trying it AGAIN, in some kind of lame, desperate, Hail-Mary-pass-kind-of-way-to-help-boost-profits, but it’s not going to work, for the reasons listed by the author of this article.
Once accessory vendors know that people run Linux, they’ll put a Linux logo on the box. Sadly, PCs aren’t generally offered with Linux, so no-one is likely to bother advertising any compatibility. Would they put an Amiga logo on the box, too?
There’s nothing stopping these same vendors from doing that right now. The difference is that they aren’t signing up to SUPPORT any initiative which doesn’t bring in any sizable supply of money.
The other points are just background noise, and the author spends one of the three pages on blah.
I wouldn’t call the fact that people are simply happier with Windows than Linux devotees think “blah”. That pretty much says it all, and you’re going to have a tough time prevailing against that.
The choice is Windows or MacOS… but MAcOS is Apple exclusive.
So really its Windows Vista or maybe if your lucky and get a choice you could have Windows XP, or win 2003. Where does Linux figure. TBH it cant unless Dell makes a big noise about competitive Linux systems that cost less than their windows counterparts.
Most PC users wont read tech sites, magazines or whatever that may indulge in discussing the novelty of a software package built by open source contributions.
Linux doesn’t factor because most people don’t know it exists.
Linux doesn’t factor because most people think they have to pay for things… let alone something as complex as an Operating System, $300 is quality assurance/certification in most people minds. Though this is changing with the downloading generation.
Linux/FOSS needs marketing guru’s and mainstream press reports.
Linux/FOSS is doing just fine technically, sure its not Windows quality in terms of usability… but FOSS is relentless, and given more uptake and contributions, the future is extremely bright.
Edited 2007-05-22 23:29
inux/FOSS needs marketing guru’s and mainstream press reports.
Who’s going to pay the salaries of the “marketing gurus” and pay for the “mainstream press reports”?
What do the Joe Users need to know about Linux?
In most cases, there are volunteers who spend their spare time and their money to get things done. They developp hardware drivers, back-engineer strange MICROS~1 file formats, implement new technologies. They do not get support by hardware vendors, nor do they get money for their work.
Who is this Joe User to assume there’s somebody out there to do his work?
“Why should I play you to repair my PC?”
Why is “Windows” that easy for Joe? Because he leaves if problems occur. He screws up his system, installs spyware, viruses, trojans, worms et al., then he calls his neighbor: “Hey dude, it’s me. I clicked on something, then something came out, pipapo tarallala, and now nothing does no working. Can you fix it now?” And someone else gets blamed if he cannot restore functionality to the system. It’s not Joe who will have to do the work, it’s somebody else. That’s why it’s that easy.
Ah, and the time agrument… “I have no time to read and learn, I’ll need a PhD to install applications!” Strange thoughts… If I want to drive a car, I’m supposed to learn how I do it, and I have to know about the traffic rules. I cannot excuse, “But I had no time to learn all these pictures and lights, I just want to drive from A to B because I need my new microwave oven carried home.” bad excuse, isn’t it? We all know it’s not working this way.
My final statement would be: Use the proper tool for every task you plan to do – first think, then do. This is a “wisdom” that will prevent users from buying TV grabber cards that are not supported by their OS and just work with NTSC while they need PAL. This will prevent users from installing software where a friend said “It’s a download manager” while it was a P2P client for an illegal file sharing program, combined with a nice trojan. This will prevent users from installing pirated software. This will prevent users from throwing away OEM media and driver CDs along woth the manuals.
Everyone should use the system that fits his needs best. But this conclusion requires to know which system this is.
Joe User titles his home page “Home”, “Untitled Document” or “New File 1”. Same for his documents. He includes RAR archives in DOC files, which he exports as HTML to send it to his aunty. Trial & error is his favourite game. He breaks off the edge of his new GPU to make it fit to the PCI slot because the AGP slot is already occupied, but he wants to use two monitors, so he needs two GPUs.
To learn more about most Joe Users, just have a look at http://www.rinkworks.com/stupid/ for your entertainment. I won’t claim all novice and average users are stupid, because they definitely are not. But the worst representatives usually are taken as the prototype of this user group.
As it has been described before, it’s easier – even for a newbie – to copy & paste commands to a terminal than describing and explaining pictures.
As some of you might know, I’m of an older generation. I learned at school that if I wanted to do something, then I had to know how I would have to do it. It’s up to me to choose the best means for this purpose. Maybe such a form of healthy common sense got lost since PCs can be bought by everyone.
Joe User does not care about others. He claims things like “I have no virus” allthoug he cannot tell, he does not use a virus checker. So he cannot be sure he’s not a danger for himself or for others. He feels as a professional system administrator while his PC does espionage or helps in tax fraud. His PC serves as a sharing point for stolen credit card numbers while he’s watching the dancing elephants. “I don’t care” is a usual opinion here. That’s sad, isn’t it?
An analogy – no, not a car analogy: In Germany we have the Citizens Band (CB) (including 146 and 400+ MHz here) and the amateur radio service (AFu). If you want to buy something that just works, you buy CB stuff. This is completely okay. The transmitters are sealed, you’re not allowed to change them legally. If you need more, e. g. want to use other frequency ranges, build own transceivers and antennas, you need to prove you’re able to, you need an amateur radio license. Therefore, you need to learn and do a test, otherwise you won’t get the license from a federal authority. If you have it, you need to know what you’re doing, because you’re responsible for the things you do, especially in regards of others, such as your neighbor’s TV reception.
Conclusion: Joe User is responsible for what he does and what he is able to. Not the Linux kernel. Not the KDE developers. Not the author of the xmms manpage. He is himself.
As long as Joe User does not understand this, he cannot assume any development of his skills.
A final note: Don’t consider the attribute “user friendly” to be the same as “idiot proof”, this assumption won’t work.
You cannot dumb down a system to ultimate idioty, because this would make it unusable for any purpose. So please don’t try it.
Yes, there are geeky corners (and it makes me feel like a pro doing these things;) but update is waaay easier than Windows. In Synaptic it is like a dream and even CLI is piece of cake.
I Like Linux, I’m an Apple guy – [here comes] “but” …
http://www.osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=17356&comment_id=216504
You folks HAVE arrived, it just hasn’t sunk in. And as quaint as it sound you really must Title your Apps with less cryptic naming schemes to get “Joe/Josey” to understand.
I’m not going to drag out an example you know what I’m talking about.
In an age of perception(s) you must master and rise above the hype and deliver an undeniable knockout.
hylas
“With comments like these, I wonder why Joe User doesn’t want to become a member of the Linux community …”
I guess i wasnt clear enough…. I DONT WANT JOE TO BECOME A MEMBER!
I believe that if we are talking about
1. Enterprise Desktop, then linux is better than all other OSs out there, its free and no custom applications are necessary because all appz used are Browser/Java based.
2. SOHO/SB/MB(Small Office-Home office/small/medium business) Desktop: not quite an excellent choice for 100% of people at this segment, because these users tend to use many custom made applications and they are written for windows XP; and emulation is still a weak option for them
3. Home Desktop:
Linux cannot help those people unless they are very technical and would like to compile Graphics drivers, Web cameras drivers, Cameras drivers, Multimedia codecs for libxine and others and others. (one example: linux failed to paly .mid, .midi files on all common sound cards, with the out of the box sound cards drivers), ( mice no more than 3 buttons support at best, same for multimedia keyboards,….and others)
4.Research/scientific/testing/Developing Desktop:
Excellent choice
So, lets differentiate between different available desktops and their audiances.
Linux is for everybody. Why differentiate.
“Linux cannot help those people unless they are very technical and would like to compile Graphics drivers, Web cameras drivers, Cameras drivers, Multimedia codecs for libxine and others and others. (one example: linux failed to paly .mid, .midi files on all common sound cards, with the out of the box sound cards drivers), ( mice no more than 3 buttons support at best, same for multimedia keyboards,….and others)”
This confuses me as far as I am aware, Only a small minority compile their graphics drivers etc etc. As they are part of a kernel released every 3 months or *only* available in binary form.
I am not aware of how hardware midi is supported under linux, but soft midi is available under all Linux’s
http://timidity.sourceforge.net/
Multimedia codecs and legal ones are available for all versions of Linux. Some pakage codecs use binary code built for Microsoft PLatform…but these are not necessary for all but the most obscure codecs. Realplayer even has a native player. The problem is the legal grey area which I would love to see resolved…or even someone point out the problems.
Mouse with multiple buttons, and multimedia keyboards are better supported under Linux, as they use a standard convention. Although these have much to do with the embarrassment that is xorg.conf these allegedly will be fixed in 7.3
Like I say why differentiate esp when the problems you say simply do not exist in the real world.
“Mouse with multiple buttons, and multimedia keyboards are better supported under Linux”
This immediately reminded me with George W Bush saying war is going well in Iraq.
@hraq
I’m glad you pointed this out becuase I remember setting up my mouse and multimedia keyboard. The advantage of a multimedia keyboard/ mouse under linux is it provides a common interface use these devices, rather than many interfaces to do the same task all of which are incompatible.
The keyboards under X support an inheritance type structure that even allows you to create a ps output of your keyboard keyboard layout, and common naming of multimedia keys, which are included as common inputs to your applications.
It even has multimedia keyboards designed for it.
http://www.cherrycorp.com/english/cymotion-line/cymotion-line_maste…
you can also detect each keycode, and assign it a function or bash script. This is available in all desktop managers.
Like I say I use a multimedia keyboard and gaming mouse under Linux. Clearly I’m imagining this.
I’ve spent a lot of time playing with this so if you have any further questions I’d be willing to answer them in detail.
Edited 2007-05-25 07:48