“If you have ever considered Linux as an alternative operating system, but were not willing to invest the time for any of the following reasons, now is the time to reconsider. If you have been concerned about the steep learning curve, potential glitches, or the possible loss of valuable data, these concerns have been addressed. For the first time, Linux is accessible to the uninitiated user with the recent releases of the best, most refined, easy to install, and more user-friendly versions.” ExtremeTech reviews RedHat 7.2, Mandrake 8.1, SuSE 7.3 and the Debian-based Libranet 1.9.1.
ExtremeTech Says the Time is Now for Linux
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
46 Comments
2001-12-16 4:29 pm
Anonymous
In response to the criticism of arcane but optional features and hacker software
“Kicking yourself in the head is hard, and it still hurts. So what? Don’t kick yourself in the head”.
We provide powerful package management tools and graphical text editors, if you prefer to use tools that you don’t understand you might reasonably complain of your own stupidity instead of blaming us. Same goes for people struggling with Notepad. There are better tools, use them!
2001-12-16 5:08 pm
Anonymous
That’s right! You have a pre-compiled application which automatically installs itself and you can be CERTAIN it will install AND work. Something which in Linix is almost impossible to do (currently)
>>>>>>>>>
Complete and utter bullshit. First of all, vi kicks ass. It takes 5 min to learn it. Second of all, if you use a distro like Mandrake or Debian, you almost never have to compile anything besides the kernel. As a Mandrake user, I have only had to compile a few out-there apps. Almost everything either has an RPM in Mandrake’s database or one can be found on the internet. And the dependency hell is a thing of the past. Juse type in ‘urpmi [pkgname]’ and Mandrake will go an install everything for you. Its even easier in Debian, mostly because Debian maintainers pay huge amounts of attention to their package DB.
2001-12-16 5:14 pm
2001-12-17 2:19 am
Anonymous
“First of all, vi kicks ass. It takes 5 min to learn it.”
Amusingly enough Windows Notepad takes about 1 second to learn and does everything I need for building html pages and rebol scripts..
I have used vi in the past but still think Emacs kicks its ass…
2001-12-17 3:29 am
Anonymous
Take an average Linux application. Install it on a Linux computer. Where is the shortcat? Is it in the Gnome (smelly)foot menu? Or is it in the KDE K-menu? Umm… actually, it’s nowhere.
Another example: install a new soundcard and set it up. Under linux, that’s not an easy task: you can’t do it without having to edit some modules file. Plug and play? Nonexistent.
As an aside: I am a longtime Slackware user, but yesterday when I tried Slack 8.1, I was deeply disappointed. I am used to Slackware being a bit harder to install but otherwise perfect. Well, with 8.1 I had the impression Volkerding is losing it.
2001-12-17 6:57 am
Anonymous
The day we can forget about installers for the end user will be a day I rejoice. BeOS pretty much gives me that. MacOS does often, too. Download the app package. Unzip it. Put it where ever the heck you want and run the app. End of story. None of this dependency crap, none of this registry garbage… I don’t care which tools Linux and Windows have.. the installation process is retarded to begin with. The biggest problem is that it is in nobody’s “financial gain interest” to actually CHANGE any of this for REAL. Keep convincing the users that this is how computers are and have to be and they keep believing that they are just too stupid to use them. The computers are the things that are just too stupid.
2001-12-17 6:58 am
Anonymous
it’s so sad to see people argueing over the installation of programs in linux and comparing it to windows. but i really got to say that installing software on linux is alot easier than on windows.
1. software can be installed threw really simple programs (rpminst, rpm-installer, apt-get)
2. i don’t have to shutdown my computer everytime i install a program, and the most i have to do is log out and log back in. (which is funny to hear from windoze people cause they say “yeah see that’s a problem with linux.” course in their os they have to restart the computer, which is more of a pain in the ass then having to log out and then in.)
3. barely any end user agreements.
4. i don’t need to choose an install path (which in windows, it does that by default but can be configured.)
as for this text editor conversation….
yes vi does kick ass. i like it. and it comes on almost every version of linux, unix, bsd, and the list goes on.
but for icarii
“Amusingly enough Windows Notepad takes about 1 second to learn and does everything I need for building html pages and rebol scripts.. ”
yes notepad takes one sec to learn but so does kwrite, gedit, edit and kate. and you have everything you need to build html pages and rebol scripts, isn’t that obvious you can do that with any text editor i listed and notepad.
come on notepad is good. but it’s got nothing compared to gedit, kate, or kwrite.
my two cents.
2001-12-17 7:00 am
Anonymous
It’s ‘lalala I can here you, your just stupid’ attiude to it’s new users.
and it’s tried-it-once-called-stupid-and-refuses-to-use-it-again users, which would prob. go away if the first lot did.
Mlk
2001-12-17 7:00 am
Anonymous
It’s ‘lalala I can hear you, your just stupid’ attiude to it’s new users.
and it’s tried-it-once-called-stupid-and-refuses-to-use-it-again users, which would prob. go away if the first lot did.
Mlk
2001-12-17 8:37 am
Anonymous
To all of you pundets raving about how wonderful Linux package tools are …
The package tools are great, so long as the app you want to install has been packaged for your distro. If not, then you’re pretty much shit out of luck because 9 times out of 10, either compiling fails, or you look at the readme file and it says you need ‘xyz’ libraries to compile it with and in my case, it’s usually a bunch of crap I’ve never heard of. And then when I try to get whatever it says they have to have, that doesn’t work either.
This problem is NOT a thing of the past! In fact, it happened to me just this week when I tried to install an app for which there were no distro packages available.
Heh, I should’ve known better than to even try.
2001-12-17 9:43 am
Anonymous
> 1. software can be installed threw really simple programs
> (rpminst, rpm-installer, apt-get)
Do you really expect a newbie to use the command line?
> 2. i don’t have to shutdown my computer everytime i
> install a program, and the most i have to do is log out and log back in.
You don’t have to restart Windows everytime you installed something. Don’t believe everything the installer says.
> (which is funny to hear from windoze people cause they say
> “yeah see that’s a problem with linux.” course in their os they have to
> restart the computer, which is more of a pain in the ass then having to
> log out and then in.)
Same with WinNT-based systems (except when you install a driver).
2001-12-17 9:44 am
Anonymous
to making an easy Linux distro. Too bad that its release is broken, so that open files dialog does not work properly for many (not all though). Its based on Debian, gives the end user ONE app for a given task (not in the tens, as in most other distros), and have a good SMB browser.
Take a look at it at http://www.redmondlinux.com
2001-12-17 11:21 am
Anonymous
> First of all, vi kicks ass. It takes 5 min to learn it
while pico take a second because it’s intuitive like notepad and unlike vi why should I waste 5 mins learning vi when even emacs is more intuative to learn.
2001-12-17 11:47 am
Anonymous
Thank you Redmond Defenders, and Linux users alike. The first seem to be saying: if it ain’t easy, it isn’t worth the trouble (that could apply to like also. The latter…, well everyone knows about those poor hopeless geeks who like open source, as much distance between them and Redmond as possible. A note to the MS defenders: no Microsoft isn’t going to offer you a job out of the blue because they like your style.
2001-12-17 3:14 pm
Anonymous
Hi, I’ve been reading the fighting back and forth and I thought I may as
well throw my 2 cents worth out here. The reason that Linux is not ready
for the desktop environment is because users are raised on Windows. If
people used Linux when they first started using computers it would be
widely excepted. Because then businesses would use Linux because then
they would not have to train the “non-power” users on how to run their
systems. But right now Windows has a major foothold on home users. So
there is NO WAY, as a one-man IT Department that I would change all
my desktop machines over to Linux. I would not even want to imagine
the nightmare that would follow. I think they would hang me. Even
if it would save me many many $$$ it just is not worth it. Now you get
Linux into the hands of home users and you may turn some heads.
2001-12-18 2:00 am
Anonymous
Mostly older PC’s donated to childern with no experience of any kind many of whom have never even seen a PC. Cost to load up Linux and several nice office, game, and server apps: $0.00…
Now do that with Microsoft! Linux may not be a major player on the desktop yet, but there is nothing in the *nix kernel holding back developers. OSX.1 is proof of that. Apple has what is probably the best desktop OS to date. Windows XP is good, I will not argue that point. But look how long it took Microsoft to develop a decent desktop OS. Linux developers have not been working towards this goal for nearly as long. The development of the Linux GUI is rapidly increasing. I happen to administer to all three OS’s mentioned, and I enjoy them all.
2001-12-18 3:30 am
Anonymous
>>> 1. software can be installed threw really simple programs
> (rpminst, rpm-installer, apt-get)
Do you really expect a newbie to use the command line? <<
no, not at all. actually rpminst and rpm-installer don’t need to be used in the command prompt. on my mandrake and redhat you install rpms threw a gui (rpm installer), course you could install it in the command line. but that would be doing it the hard way, or easy for the few of us. and rpminst isn’t a command line program… or at least i not that i know of cause it always came up as a gui program.
though apt-get i think is command line. but corel update and kde installer can adapt to installing debian packages with out a command line.
actually on that packages and stuff. i rarely have had to go into the command line to install anything, other than tgz files, which were about 3 of 50 software installs i had were tgz files which required me to install inthe command line.
and also for MVM. you got a good point. but i’ve been saying that maybe if linux was in schools then it would be alot better. cause this generation is lost to a monopoly. but the next can be a whole differnt story.
and yes linux a good desktop alternative. for all of those who are ignorant to just looking at linux as a premitive command line operating system.
2001-12-19 1:25 am
Anonymous
i noticed a funny thing about some windows programs. a good percentage of them i usually have to reinstall just to ge the damn program to work the way it’s supposed to.
I’ve had alot of people ask me how to fix a windows program and i would say reinstall it. only for the program to start working. i’ve only noticed this with one operating system… and yes it’s windows.
my 6 cents.
2001-12-19 4:45 pm
Anonymous
>>>That’s right! You have a pre-compiled application which automatically installs itself and you can be CERTAIN it will install AND work. Something which in Linix is almost impossible to do (currently)<<<
actually with the recent (yeah recent five years!) linux has rpm’s and debs that do the same thing. alot more of the debs and rpms i’ve installed worked alot better than the windows software i’ve installed.
ps. .tar.gz files which have to be compiled manually can installed threw rpm installer. so there ya go. rpm installer, is also a program manager. kind of like install/remove software (or is that applications?(in ms windows))
the only problem i see with linux is that when you install a file it doesn’t automaticaly places a link in the kde, gnome, or distro menu.
though most of the programs i install from app.kde.com and gnome.org actually go into their menus.
two more cents.
2001-12-22 11:20 pm
Anonymous
I wonder who is this site for? windows happy users, mac happy users, happy users of happy operative systems? What are the forums for? To tell each other how happy are with their oses? Does the world “evolve” mean something for you?
see you later
2002-02-03 6:50 pm
Anonymous
For those who were talking about Solaris 8: I tried installing it on my home PC, but it needed over 64 megs of RAM. I have that, but the installer detected only 62… From using Solaris at school (I’m a college sophomore) I know that it is a wonderful system, very disciplined and powerful. It is my primary choice of OS to get my HW done. Windoze mangle and sometimes just eat important files and software settings for no apparent reason (even if the files and settings were saved 2 or 3 times), so I have to waste a lot of time trying to re-create the mangled/lost stuff.
Also, if I make an error while using some program, Solaris is nice enough to actually show me very descriptive error information in a new terminal window, and reset my work session to the last correct keystroke. Windoze just say, “This program has performed an illegal operation and will be closed. If the problem persists, please contact the program’s vendor.”, and I can only click the OK button. Sound familiar?
Also, what do you mean by ‘newbie’? I consider myself a newbie in UNIX because I can’t write a simple shell script (zsh, csh, bash, etc.)to monitor the system or any of the HTML-embeddable scripts (JS, VBS, php, cgi, asp, jsp), and I have no idea how to do Python scripting or how to write a program in C++.
So, please try to be more precise in your posts. And it’s Windoze that sux, not UNIX/Linux (Don’t count GNU, because it’s a recursive acronym for GNU’s Not UNIX).
If you have been concerned about the caveman-like interface of VI, certain dependancy problems in compling simple X applications, or the possible loss of data due to hidden static links and .rc files, these concerns have been *not* been addressed.
One word: LOL!
Laughing Out Loud…..Hahahaha
Hmmm… Under Windoze you don’t _compile_ apps, and you don’t use vi.
So you can also use linux/GNU without compiling apps and using vi.
(a vi-user and app-compiler
>> Under Windoze you don’t _compile_ apps, and you don’t use vi.
That’s right! You have a pre-compiled application which automatically installs itself and you can be CERTAIN it will install AND work. Something which in Linix is almost impossible to do (currently)
>> So you can also use linux/GNU without compiling apps and using vi.
Of course you can, but are there any? If yes, how many? 1 in 1 000 000 000?
Please don’t mention RPM versions….Cause they need manuall installations!
Please also, don’t mention the GUIed RPM installers. You still need to do it manually…install each package one by one. Face it! A normal desktop user needs an automated process! With no errors! ……..InstallShield…….
Even the most simplest application requires compiling! And still, in Windows (a pre-compiled version of it) will run faster then the self-compiled one in Linux.
Why do I always have to compile and install and do everything manually? Does anyone think this is “OK” for a desktop based OS? Come on, face it! It’s not OK. Can’t you simply create a GUI install program that will do it for me?
And don’t give me that comment, “If you are like that, do it yourself”. That reply is boring. At this occasion, I act as a desktop user. And you would be saying that to a desktop based OS user. So, a “”Desktop”” based OS such as “Linux” would require a normal user to create him/her self an InstallShield kinda a program in order to install another program?? Also editing CPP, .C, .SH files to make sure the program will work. The poor user has never seen C++ in his life before and you expect him to edit the file? Wow, that would be one interesting “”friendly??”” desktop OS
And KDE: I must install it manually when new versions arrive! Yeah I know, I think there was this project which is suppose to automate the process for KDE but I don’t know where they are up to…
Oh, and those dependencies when compiling….are pain in the back
Dude must not have read the article at all. It clearly shows you the various tools the distros use to make installing software, even software that has dependencies easy.
Mandrake for instance has urpmi or Mandrake Update. When you go to install one thing and it needs something else, IT WILL INSTALL IT FOR YOU. But hey if the guy actually read the article he would have known that instead of talking out of his ass as he did.
Debian and thus Libranet has a similar mechanism with apt-get. If you choose for example “apt-get blackbox” and you don’t have its dependencies installed then they will be installed for you automatically.
But who needs to read stuff before commenting these days? Lets all be Slashdot trolls and just make shit up to suit our arguments! Yeah!
shar…
that strange name….
atp-get
RPM
those strange stuff
btw in debian you may even not need compile anything there are .deb for almost everything.
anyway compile stuff is part of the fun and vi is fast if you know how to use if not you have LOTs of other program that can do the same stuff in a more point&click idiot way.
Linux is years away from being a viable GUI. If you don’t believe it, just go back and read the comments posted here. Now put yourself in the baseline PC users shoes. Would you load it?
Silly rabbit – Linux is for servers!!
I have a Linux machine around just for fun, but I can’t even install the simplest software on it. What a joke! Could they make it ANY more complicated? I have to use the command line to unbzip, ungzip, untar,and rpm it. THEN I can’t install it because I’m not at root ( like my cat is gonna break into my desktop while I’m at work). THEN I go root, and find out that I’m missing half the libraries, or theres conflicts. Where the heck to I get all these libraries? Where do I put them ? Crap…just hit the power button and go back to my mac.
Linux kernal might be great, but the entire UI needs to be redesigned if desktop acceptance is a goal. And vi… why is a something as simple as DOS EDIT beyond a linux develper (I can hear them now…NOOOOOOOOOOO it’s got drop down menuuuuuuuuuuussssssssss.)
People can make statements on paper about how easy it is, but in practice it just isn’t so.
The GUIs and apps are still buggy; I blame that on the open source model usually performed by dedicated volunteers. Their intentions and hearts are in the right place, but there is no motive to ever complete the projects. Just look at Mozilla. Will it ever reach 1.0? From the comments of developers on the usenet it is clear that they view their projects as hobby projects, not as tools for end users to get work done. So many times I see comments like, “I write softare for me, not for anyone else, so stop complaining.”
UNinstalling apps is nearly impossible because of dependencies. Installing apps after the OS install is NOT that easy if you use GnoRPM for example. It still won’t resolve dependencies (at least on my system wiht RH7.1).
Help is usually useless; man pages are meant for people who don’t need help, just a technical reference. Having so much “choice” means there is no unified interface standard.
I have RH installed on a second boot partition, but I don’t use it much. Why should I? Win2000 is much more reliable and does EVERYTHING I need (though MS itself…well, don’t get me started about that company). Linux might do HALF of what I need, and with a lot more trouble. Now, if Gobe 3.0 for Linux is as good as the Win version, that will help a LOT. I’m still waiting for a web browser as capable and fast as IE, or even close to it (but without the MS spyware, of course).
I’m still looking forward to the day when Linux is ready for general desktop use, but this isn’t it. We have been hearing the same claims for years.
Doug
“point&click idiot way”
So using gui apps makes you an idiot? I think not. That is the same old sorry argument that makes Linux a piece of crap desktop OS. Great, you can still get things done like you did in 1970. Wow…what innovation.
Don’t tell me that software dependencies have been sufficiently addressed. You still need to configure things by hand before this will even work. And then if you cross your fingers, wear garlic, and rub your rabbit’s foot, it might just work.
Linux is all wrong for the desktop. People complained about Win95 just being a shell on top of a CLI. Guess what Linux is (with KDE/GNOME of course).
-G
I will only say one thing:
Unix is a unix. Trying to make it something is not, is just not right. The right tool for the job. Linux has its problems as a desktop OS, simply because it is not one, no matter how much you want to make it one.
Apple, by being a company, and not just different people around the world who think that copy/paste should work one way or another (hence the problems with several incompatibilities between toolkits), has created a coherant desktop over unix, by HIDING unix as much as they could. Linux does not hide it (which of course is not a bad thing). But you can’t be a real unix and be a real desktop OS at the same time.
As for KDE and Gnome, I prefer WindowMaker.
I would like to drop a note here. Just yesterday, I installed FreeBSD 4.4 I was amazed that it actually loads the 1/3 of the time Mandrake 8 does, it shuts down in 2 seconds instead of the 30-40 seconds Mandrake needs to shut down all the services, and KDE and Gnome are running faster.
Think about it: KDE 2 under FreeBSD, as I was seeing yesterday, runs twice as fast on single PIII 450 Mhz than in my Mandrake on my DUAL Celeron 533. I am sure that it has to do with the problem Linux has with its loader not being able to handle correctly C++ (which IS a Linux problem), but then, even Gnome was feeling much faster.
And you tell me that Linux is the great alternative for Windows? In my mind, if you want a desktop OS, go with Windows or MacOSX (or BeOS, if there was a future for BeOS), if you want a unix workstation that happes to be a great server and fast overall, go with FreeBSD. Linux does not fit anywhere in my needs. IMO of course.
What about XFS? Can I use XFS on another operating system? (other than Linux or Irix that is). If not, then there are only 2 choices left for people like me who want their *desktop* file system to support file attributes. Linux and BeOS.
Actually, in WinXP, NTFS5 supports attributes. Within explorer, I can sort mp3 by artist, length; and movies by resolution, etc.
If only onscreen fonts appeared anti-aliased in 256 shades instead of 5; and if only the kearning weren’t so random, Linux/KDE might not be so bad for browsing, and the like.
>> Under Windoze you don’t _compile_ apps, and you don’t use vi.
That’s right! You have a pre-compiled application which automatically installs itself and you can be CERTAIN it will install AND work. Something which in Linix is almost impossible to do (currently)
First off – all apps need to be compiled before runtime, it’s just a matter of who does it (I’ve compiled many win apps).
I don’t know in what sence windows application installations are “automatic” – there might be some, although I’ve never seen them.
OTOH in Debian application installation is very simple and fast – and you have the same tool for ALL apps. OS’es without application management standards aren’t very fun to use…
>> So you can also use linux/GNU without compiling apps and using vi.
Of course you can, but are there any? If yes, how many? 1 in 1 000 000 000?
bash-2.05a$ apt-cache stats
Total Package Names : 10708 (428k)
That’s more than enough for me…
Please don’t mention RPM versions….Cause they need manuall installations!
Please also, don’t mention the GUIed RPM installers. You still need to do it manually…install each package one by one. Face it! A normal desktop user needs an automated process! With no errors!
To start with – this hasn’t with the package format itself to do.
To answer your question – “apt” (http://debian.org)
Even the most simplest application requires compiling!
Of course – that’s how all application code work.
And still, in Windows (a pre-compiled version of it) will run faster then the self-compiled one in Linux.
*sigh* troll…
Why do I always have to compile and install and do everything manually? Does anyone think this is “OK” for a desktop based OS? Come on, face it! It’s not OK.
apt, mandrakeupdate, redcarpet etc
Can’t you simply create a GUI install program that will do it for me?
mandrakeupdate, redcarpet, kpackage etc (sevreal gui front-ends to apt as well)
And KDE: I must install it manually when new versions arrive! Yeah I know, I think there was this project which is suppose to automate the process for KDE but I don’t know where they are up to…
This really isn’t about KDE… tools that will do this for you are already mentioned.
Oh, and those dependencies when compiling….are pain in the back
…once again…
And vi… why is a something as simple as DOS EDIT beyond a linux develper (I can hear them now…NOOOOOOOOOOO it’s got drop down menuuuuuuuuuuussssssssss.)
nano, pico
Linux is all wrong for the desktop. People complained about Win95 just being a shell on top of a CLI. Guess what Linux is (with KDE/GNOME of course).
The difference is that Win95 claims to be a “GUI OS”.
I would like to drop a note here. Just yesterday, I installed FreeBSD 4.4 I was amazed that it actually loads the 1/3 of the time Mandrake 8 does, it shuts down in 2 seconds instead of the 30-40 seconds Mandrake needs to shut down all the services, and KDE and Gnome are running faster.
Think about it: KDE 2 under FreeBSD, as I was seeing yesterday, runs twice as fast on single PIII 450 Mhz than in my Mandrake on my DUAL Celeron 533. I am sure that it has to do with the problem Linux has with its loader not being able to handle correctly C++ (which IS a Linux problem), but then, even Gnome was feeling much faster.
First off, FBSD and Mandrake aims for different users – a better comparison would be btw FBSD and Debian.
My experience of Mandrake is bad, performance and stability wise, as well.
And about the CPUs… a PIII 450 performs alot better than a Celeron 533, and on normal “desktop use” probably even better on average than 2xCel533.
Regards
Linux still sux, Its getting there but still lacks the speed, Go with BEOS, i know its a dieing OS but switch and help save, it’ll blow you away if your used to crappppy linux!!!
My win XP partition is Fat32 and sorts mp3s by artist etc. too… so it looks like Explorer just knows about id3 tags
hehe, pretty funny how everyone complains about slashdot trolls and then trolls away on osnews. At least on slashdot the trolls get moderated down and no one ever has to read them.
Well anyway, here’s my addition to the fray…
Most of the arguements that people use who don’t like linux no longer apply. The whole deal about hard installations (of the OS and apps), confusing interface, bad GUI, no browser.. whatever, that shit just is NOT true anymore. Back in the slasckware 3.6 (1997?) days I tried to install linux and failed miserably, then with caldera, mandrake 7, debian 2.2, etc.. I gave up on all of them cause they were all missing something or other that I needed.. But I recently installed debian woody and its totally useable.. Manageable install, great GUI (KDE 2.2), easy software installation (seriously, this is way easier than windows. Want to update a program, install a new one? Select it and hit the big INSTALL button, it downloads and installs it for you automatically, no problems. Beats windows update or installshield anytime.) The problem is that people hear about recompiling kernels and stuff like that and panic. YOU DONT HAVE TO DO THAT STUFF TO USE LINUX!. In Windows you would never do that, and if you did, it would be hard too. so don’t bitch about it..
</rant>
All the distros to pick from… Why not take the the UNIX mod. from SUN? It is free for download and has all the man pages you could want. Then pick up the free Office aps. look alike and be FINISHED. You want command line control – you got it. You want GUI ease – you got it. Every one of your Windows *.doc, *.xl? etc. will convert and you can have the output from your workspace convert back to the office format if you need to share files with the unconverted.
From “Overview of FAT, HPFS, and NTFS File Systems (Q100108)” at microsoft.com:
<p>
“Finally, under NTFS, a user can add his or her own user-defined attributes to a file.”
<p>
From OSNews.com’s “Interview with Microsoft’s Zac Woodall”:
<p>
“NTFS actually has supported streaming of data along side files since the NT 4 era…”
<p>
“hehe, pretty funny how everyone complains about slashdot trolls and then trolls away on osnews. At least on slashdot the trolls get moderated down and no one ever has to read them.”
Relating your personal experience with a product is not trolling, unless you define a troll as anyone who doesn’t like Linux.
“Well anyway, here’s my addition to the fray…
Most of the arguements that people use who don’t like linux no longer apply. The whole deal about hard installations (of the OS and apps), confusing interface, bad GUI, no browser.. whatever, that shit just is NOT true anymore.”
Some are, some aren’t. Installation, IMHO, on RedHat is easier than any version of Windows, and it has more drivers and better detection than Win2K. However, the GUIs ares still flaky, regardless of your claims.
“Back in the slasckware 3.6 (1997?) days I tried to install linux and failed miserably, then with caldera,”
Glad I wasn’t the only one. Those 2 bombed on me, also.
“But I recently installed debian woody and its totally useable.. Manageable install, great GUI (KDE 2.2), easy software installation (seriously, this is way easier than windows. Want to update a program, install a new one? Select it and hit the big INSTALL button, it downloads and installs it for you automatically, no problems. Beats windows update or installshield anytime.) The problem is that people hear about recompiling kernels and stuff like that and panic. YOU DONT HAVE TO DO THAT STUFF TO USE LINUX!.”
In my experience, the apps in KDE 2.2 were still incomplete and unreliable, and KDE still crashes twice a day at least.
The trouble is that using Linux is much more than installing the OS or installing apps. What about productivity and reliability? Win2K stays out of my way. Linux, or more specifically the GUI that is needed to ge anything done, is always making itself an issue. CTL-ALT-BACKSPACE became a way of life.
Consistency of certain operations (like Cut and Paste between apps) is severely lacking. And why the heck should I have to manually edit a menu in KDE or Gnome to add a launcher for an app I just installed? Good grief, the Mac and Windows took care of that in the 1980s!! Linux is like an inefficent consultant. I feel like telling it, “Don’t waste my time!”
“In Windows you would never do that, and if you did, it would be hard too. so don’t bitch about it.. ”
Ahhh, the inevitable Linux advocate’s scolding of windows ‘lusers’: stop your complaining.
<RANT>
Linux has many obstacles to widespread acceptance. The attitude of its advocacy is a big one. They say they want Windoze users to convert, but when they try, and have questions when they feel clueless, they are ridiculed and insulted, called stupid, “lusers,” sheep, trolls, morons, “unintuitive” (whatever that means), and a bunch of names I won’t repeat. Yes, I have seen all of these on the usenet. What a great way to win people to your point of view. Many of these Linux advocates are convinced that your intelligence is reflected by the OS you use, and some of them are arrogant enough to tell me so. Don’t tell me it isn’t true; I have seen it too often.
Some people there are very helpful, but many are either directly insulting, or talk down to people by answering in arcane *nix jargon instead of plain language. Too often help in these groups too often consists of “read the man pages.” Too bad the man pages are not meant to teach the inexperienced, but as a reference for those who know their way around the system. man pages have never helped me.
For those penguins who defend their high-horse attitudes by saying “the help here is free — don’t gripe,” you should know that people in the Windows and BeOS groups don’t do that. I hear that the FreeBSD people are really friendly and helpful, also (a good reason to try FreeBSD). They just help, and they aren’t getting paid, either. What makes you so special?
</RANT>
Well, “easy” is all in the eye of the beholder.
It really depends on what you’re used to.
Personally, I think Linux isn’t right/ready for people who have alot of experience with Windows, and are looking for something similar to Windows. These people would probably have problems with MacOS too. (“What’s up with these extentions” “Why do I %@%*%*^ need this toolbar on top, can’t they keep attached to the window” etc etc)
If you expect a GUI – Linux has ok stuff. Except when it comes to lower level configuration – network config, hardware setup etc. The reason why this thing has lagged is mainly because the heterogenous nature of the different distributions, and will be solved over time by each distro individually.
Now, I’m gonna tell you why I am using Linux, and more specifically, Debian. I find it easier. That’s right. When I’m using Windows, I can fix things generally and apply workarounds and such, but at a certain point, I’m always confronted with the black box that is Windows.
Have you ever told a person that it’s just easier to backup hist data and reinstall Windows than it is to analyse over what exactly is fucked up? Or had Windows act flakily for no apparent reason, and, after ruling out that it’s not a hardware problem (through a multitude of convoluted ways requiring reboots, bizarre non-free programs, old DOS, etc) reinstalled Windows and then seeing the flakiness dissappeared as misteriously as it appeared in the first place?
Even someone who _wants_ to know more about the system, to get a certain job done can’t do it properly. Fixing windows ends up being all about experience, and not about logic or policy.
Apple MacOS (9 – don’t have enough experience yet with X to form an adequate opinion yet) is less frustrating, and I believe the reason was because the OS just got out of the way/was less intrusive (you know where to look when something’s wrong – even if you’re inexperienced with it. logic/policy is adequate).
Debian is ideal for me. Installing programs is easy (what everyone says is true: apt-get rules) – i can quickly try something out, and just as quickly remove it. In windows i’m a bit skiddish in installing programs “just to try things out” considering all the mess that may actually stay behind. I also don’t see why people seem to think that downloading zip files, unpacking them in a temporary directory, finding the appropriate installer, and then (probably) rebooting is so much easier than typing one command. To be fair, I hear things will improve with .msi installer files – that doesn’t mean that every program sticks to that policy though.
This is what I’m trying to explain: Debian’s strong point is something that evolved out of necessity. Coping with hunderds of developers that are spread out all over the world forced Debian to create/design/evolve a good policy that is only getting better over time. This gave us the joys of the debian packages, the distributed network+mirrors, the menu system, the joys of debconf (every package asks questions when installing/desinstalling thru this interface, and the user can choose to answer the questions using a text based menu system, graphical interface (gnome for instance), or even web based interface).
The result is that I have, at any point in time, a very up-to-date (bleeding edge, cause that’s the way i like it) Debian Linux machine, that I didn’t have to reinstall for the last 2-3 years. (maybe that’s the reason the debian installer isn’t exactly spiffy – although i wouldn’t call it _hard_)
My win2k partition just seems to get slower and more messed up over time. The registry only grows. I’m at the point where i’m actually reluctant every time I have to start it up. And worst of it all – i have no clear idea of where the problems are situated (and i _am_ pretty technical)
Linux has definately it’s share of problems. And it can take _a lot_ of pointers from Win2K and MacOS9/X. But right now, I can get my work done more efficiently with Linux. That’s why I use it.
A sidenote: all gui’s suck and are stuck in the eighties. Mac OS X gets a few things right but misses the boat still. Where’s device/resolution independence? Or (network) location transparency? Why are they putting all this gui layout info/policy fixed in the applications?! That’s a model imposed by the hardware limitations of the eighties and beginning nineties, and it’s a shame that neither the linux community (aside from some people – but for some reason radical changes aren’t very popular) nor Apple are fixing this as of yet (I don’t expect Microsoft to, if you look at their “future gui research documents” – blergh).
Apologies for the long rant.
On the NTFS issue raised here:
YES, NTFS does support metadata and multiple streams of data. Microsoft do not see the point of using the metadata everywhere the way BeOS does, therefore Explorer only uses the mp3, images and album attributes. But if you want, you can create your own attributes. There is that big company who does backup software for WinNT/2k/XP (can’t remember their name now) and they do have support for them and use them in their software. The API is public, but the Windows developers do not seem to have much use or interest in the attributes, simply because Microsoft does not advocate them or encourage them.
XFS also has such support, but under Unix, there is NO filemanager that can handle them. Also, XFS supports Live Queries, like BeFS does, but only under IRIX. You need kernel support for Live Queries and the Linux kernel does not provide that.
Honestly, the problem with Linux isn’t about File system features and kernel live query support (and yes Linux got the best FS around – XFS).
It’s not about app installations and GUI tools either (Linux has got what it takes here too)
The reason regular desktop users don’t switch is that you can’t just throw yourself into Linux and start using it.
As with all unices (yes, I claim it’s the same with MacOSX) you need to understand the system.
When you are knowledgable enough you can set up any nifty GUI stuff or anything else in Linux.
Personally I don’t think Linux should strife to become “as easy as windows”, as it would bring all the short-comings of a windows as well in the long run.
Let Mandrake, Caldera, SuSE etc try – but don’t force nifty stuff into OS level.
Now let me return to my E17 desk running mutt and multiple vim’s in peace…
all this penguin dissing, smells like fear/U/D.
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