Sun’s Schwartz says his company’s partnership with EDS and its deal with the Chinese government establish Sun as a leading desktop provider and competitor to Microsoft.
New Desktop Battleground: Microsoft vs. Sun
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
I don’t want to restart the “is java suitable in client apps” controversy, but client-side java is certainly do-able. From the OSNEWS reviews I’ve read about this desktop, the client-side java on linux seems to suffer from chaotic looks and feels. But I imagine that can be remedied.
Good luck to them. I hope they offer some smart competition and keep some java momentum going.
Better think again, Sun is indeed live and kicking and seems to do some pretty aggressive moves on the market. First they push Solaris for AMD-64, even though Solaris on Sun HW is probably the best server you can have….
Now going for the desktop market… and people put great confidence in Sun businesswise, I bet they’ll be getting many corporations on board.
Good luck Sun, and thanks for all the cool stuff you bring to the market =)
Take a peak.
You have to wait for a mail with a download code thought.
http://see.sun.com/Apps/DCS/mcp?q=ST4W21TFZydO63
I read the entire article reviewing the new Sun (aka Suse Linux 8.2) with a Gnome desktop manager in place. If anyone paid any attention while reading it, the ‘segmentation faults’ are NOT acceptable for an Enterprise level operating system. What do you tell you end user when applications crash with these errors, nothing. You would have to wait for Sun to come up with a solution, first it will have to be reported back to them as a BUG in the operating system. This to me sounds more like BETA software not ready for the desktop, especially the Enterprise desktop where you need it to be fully functional and ready to work.
It will be interesting to see how it plays out, but this will hardly even dent MS desktop dominance the Corporation I work for has over 5,000 desktops running Windows 2000 Pro being upgraded with new machines because the workstations are leased and the new machines are loaded with Win XP Professional and Office XP. The reason why Corporations choose Win XP or 2000 Pro is because it is rock solid has numerous applications, plus (custom written applications for Win 2k and XP Pro) that people seem to forget about. Another fact is, all 5,000 of the end users are comfortable with the operating system and they can use it with no problems. If they have one they can call 3000 and open a ticket to have it resolved or have help and be on their way to being productive again.
I remember reading one comment stating to ‘fire people in a few months if they could not grasp a Linux desktop computer’. Sorry, but most of the upper level Leadership or Executive Leaders would fall into this category and they handle items such as budgets, metrics, and so on. They know for a fact this would cause associate satisfaction to plummet and productivity to fall of the face of the earth. Plus, they know of all the custom in house written applications would all have to be re-written or some type of garbage EMULATION software that works about as good as having a tooth ache.
To sum it up, basically the review of the new Sun Java Desktop showed the weak points and there is nothing that you can do to correct them. The ‘Segmentation faults’ are clearly NOT acceptable for an Enterprise level operating system. This is BETA software in my eyes and I have worked in IT for over 15 years. The desktop battle is not going to happen; this battle was won a long, long time ago by MS. If they were playing their cards right they would be spending R & D money on writing applications to convey and show the end user we have an agenda for this operating system. Instead of taking (Suse Linux 8.2 and using Gnome desktop manager) to change it up a bit. Then calling it ‘new’ when there is nothing new about it.
Lastly, I would expect a lot more from Sun than this, it was clearly a disappointing release and it will eventually fade away into the land of mistakes.
I believe it is the beginning of the end of Microsoft, the beginning of the collapse of the evil empire.
While Sun’s 1.0 release may not be perfect, I really can’t recall ANY Microsoft 1.0 release being as good as what Sun is shipping. Usually it takes Microsoft three major releases to get something right. So by that standard, Sun is ahead of the game.
I read about Microsoft’s new DRM today. All they did was obfuscate what they are doing and change a few names. And hire some semi-trustworthy looking grayhair to hock the stuff. As the rest of the world moves towards open systems, Microsoft is trying to lock everyone in to Windows. With DRM, you will be locked in forever. I don’t think many companies are going to be fooled. The only security problem DRM solves is that of Microsoft’s share price.
Microsoft is in deep trouble. What Sun is doing is merely the beginning of the flood of affordable “good enough” software that is going to be available. I can’t wait until I can drop my MS Windows and MS Office at the dump. I’d recycle them, but they are considered toxic waste…
Your kidding right? If your statements make you believe so be it but you have to get a clue man.
MS could survive for years to come without making another cent.
When Microsoft loses the desktop, they are done. Kaput, over. It is their Achilles heel. Every single Microsoft business depends on keeping a chokehold over the desktop. If you take the desktop, Microsoft is doomed.
Sure they will have plenty of cash… but their stock price will plummet. And the shareholders will start howling for dividends and payments… and the lawsuits that Microsoft will face… are just beginning… so many many years of doing evil things to people… the same people who will want blood when they realize how much Microsoft has abused them… it’s not going to be pretty, the collapse of this evil company.
In 2-3 years, Linux will be across the board “good enough” for all the keys things that Windows does well today. And that is it for Microsoft.
The company may still exist, but no one will want to buy their locked-in proprietary malware anymore. They will remember the bad days when Microsoft owned all their data and had complete control over their PC. And they will say “never again”.
Its ridiculous that a company with the resources of Sun takes Linux and basically repackages it and calls it a day.
I don’t know anyone that is excited by any of Sun’s moves. Our HP/Sun server admins don’t see anything compelling about what Sun is doing on the desktop.
AMD64 support is great but where is Sun’s AMD based desktops? Heck, if Sun started making AMD64 desktops that would be exciting.
What is their position regarding Solaris and Sparc?
Goldstein, please stop the baiting. Your posts read like you are chasing a good debate, always. Please be milder in your expressions.
“Sure they will have plenty of cash… but their stock price will plummet. And the shareholders will start howling for dividends and payments”
Little do you know about MS, hm..? It was only **NOW** that MS paid a dividend first time EVER !!
Goldstein is legendary for not knowing what he talks about.
Microsoft can stop selling Windows today and still make millions of dollars in interest income.
What about all those ‘segmenatation faults’ in the (Suse linux 8.2–Sun Java Desktop)….
This needs some serious work, MS is not finished. They are doing very well, they will continue to do well.
Now if Sun would be original and develop their OWN version of the Linux desktop, I would like to see it.
“While I have life and strength I shall never cease from the practice and teaching of philosophy, exhorting any one whom I meet and saying to him, after my manner: ‘You, my friend–a citizen of this great and mighty and wise city of Athens–are you not ashamed of devoting yourself to acquiring the greatest amount of money and honor and reputation, and caring so little about wisdom and truth and the greatest improvement of the soul, which you never regard or heed at all?’ . . .
“I proceed to interrogate and examine and cross-examine him, and if I think that he has no virtue in him, but only says that he has, I reproach him with undervaluing the greater, and overvaluing the less.
“For I do nothing but go about persuading you all, old and young alike, not to take thought for your persons or your properties, but first and chiefly to care about the greatest improvement of the soul.”
Socrates’s Speech Before the Athenian Senate
—
Never before have I been asked by a Greek woman to temper the passion of my communication. I suppose there is first time for everything.
And I hear your message. I must recall this is America, land of politician-speech and duplicity. I will not post anymore.
It’s been almost a year I’m Debian/Knoppix on 7 home computers, and XP at work. I cannot replace my Linux with XP at home anymore, for the reasons Windows fundamentally lacks: configurability, richness and stability. Linux comes with the best dependencies solving system in the world. If I remove .NET framework (any shared library) from Windows. most of my apps will instantly stop working, but Windows is not capable of solving dependencies, so it won’t complain even. With Debian, if I say #apt-get remove kdelibs4, I’ll get a list of 200 applications that depend on kdelibs that should and will be removed as well. That’s beautiful. Also Linux supports NTFS, DOS partitions, Windows sharing via Samba. Windows supports nothing. Not even tabs in the browser. Mozilla truly looks awsome compared to the IE junk. All I miss is games…
Funny.. I am on Windows and have tabbed browsing in Mozilla. Mozilla is as little Linux as it is MS — or as much. So stop talking such nonsense.
Nice to see that Sun has finally gotten of it’s but and done some competing other than with their strategic litigation and is actually showing some signs of life, albiet very faint.
“Until now the competition on the Java side in the marketplace has been between Eclipse and NetBeans, with Eclipse having an early lead but NetBeans now starting to pull into its own. Now, as we add Project Rave on top of that, we will finally be back in a position of controlling our destiny on the tools side,” Schwartz said.
So how does this all tie in with that Oracle initiative that concerns standards with plugins. Looks like Scwartz took a little jab at Eclipse, but they want the eclipse consortium to join in on this plugin standards.
The other thing is when I first heard about Project Rave they were touting it as a VB killer, but all the info I ever found about it pointed to it being an easier way to design web forms.
So how does this all tie in with that Oracle initiative that concerns standards with plugins. Looks like Scwartz took a little jab at Eclipse, but they want the eclipse consortium to join in on this plugin standards.
Of course they do, why not? This makes it easier for to make both platforms viable. Beyond editor feature, it’s the “plug-ins” that help really define an IDE. If the plug-ins are common, then that lifts the exclusivity of the, and it makes plug-in authors, perhaps, more ambivalent as to which one they support.
So, given a level playing field of plug-ins, the IDE is a matter of taste rather than any technology reason.
Also it lets folks actually focus on the added value functionality vs the core fundamentals. For example, there are at least, what 4? 5? Java IDEs now? NetBeans, Eclipse, Oracle, JBuilder. That’s 4 editors being maintained. Well now, isn’t THAT a waste of time?
The other thing is when I first heard about Project Rave they were touting it as a VB killer, but all the info I ever found about it pointed to it being an easier way to design web forms.
Anything that will let inexperienced folks write better applications on the Java platform is a win for Sun. If MS goes “See, drag, drop, click, boom — web app”, Sun needs to be able to compete at that level. So, is Suns research says that “VB folks are making web forms”, and that’s something Java is very good at today, then..voila…Instant Web Forms.
I really hope Sun makes a go of this; however I must say that Linux really offers no compelling advantage on the desktop IMO. At least, not without going with a total packaged server/client product like Sun is attempting to do (JDS/JES).
Linux is not inherently more stable than XP in my experience as a desktop OS. The reason is not the kernel usually, but less polished applications. Yes, I know some are great, but a lot of packaged apps are not, they are just free.
All of the most significant open source products, most of high quality, are available on Windows as well as Linux/BSD.
It is of no significant weight to argue that Linux is a superior choice, because one prefers Mozilla and OpenOffice to IE and Office XP/2003. It may very well be true, but Windows gives you the flexibility of both, rather than just one. As well as access to a wider range of applications such as the Adobe suites (Linux, for example, lacks anything to directly compete at a production level with programs like GoLive, Dreamweaver, or InDesign). And for the home user, XP has superior multimedia and gaming options.
Of course, everyone can easily wind up missing that _one_ app they must have, ala XMMS, but, as much as I value Linux’s abilties and particularly its use for servers, on the desktop, a company–or person–most evaluate whether Linux is able to accomplish all of their requirements before they adopt it; Windows almost certainly will.
I think sun is a great engineering company, but its product is not known for ease of use at least for those new comer. Java is a very good example, put side by side with vb.
Recently, I decide to learn jsp/j2ee and download Java web service developer pack 1.2, then later try 1.3, just to find out many example would not run. Too many rough edge and left bad taste in my mouth.
Just hope JDS could be somewhat better.
Hey Darius, your comment has nothing to do with Goldstein’s post. Perhaps s/he isn’t a a coder?
Why don’t you go use a search engine or express what you’ve tried so far instead of flaming? Thanks!
Here’s a hint
http://www.djcj.org/LAU/quicktoots/toots/vst-plugins/
http://www.geocrawler.com/archives/3/304/2000/2/0/3358380/
http://www.skale.org
http://www.google.com/search?q=wine+linux+cubase
Took me a few seconds to find out. Thanks, Google.
VB is junk compared to JAVA, i’ve seen first hand that apps written in VB.net may be easy to create, but they are unstable at best and nearly impossible to debug. C# is the same way. sure there arent any drag ‘n’ drop IDE’s out there for java, but then again java is for real programming. it may look a little like C# but IS far superior. I do like Java more than any of the .Net junk, and the two really can’t be compared. anyway, the Java Desktop is ore than just Suse with new icons, they’ve integrated their JVM with the system and it also appears that they’ve got some way to interface the JVM to the GUI, which is just what java needs. This sort of thing is sorely needed, and IMO Sun should push Java even further out into the open.
It never ocurred to me such idea (though I come from a technical, non-humanistic background). Hats off to you.
And remember, “this too shall pass”.
Well, there is. Sadly SUN’s new offering just looks like it is not competing, but there are several GNU/Linux offerings that can and do compete and of course it depends on your needs and wants.
Our university department recently decided to go GNU/Linux on the next upgrade circle, which is mainly due because MS Windows 98 SE has reached EOL. We have a few boxes running MS Windows 2000 Pro and MS Office 2000, they will be kept until EOL. We had one compelling reason to shun MS and go free: Our department uses an old but reliable library software with more than 100000 entries in a rather stupid database layout. The data base server is running on Netware 5 (patched to oblivion).
There are only DOS clients (there were MS Windows NT clients once, but we don’t have any licenses) and those refuse to run properly under MS Windows 2000. They will probably also refuse to run under MS Windows XP – we can’t test because we don’t own a copy. On the other hand the clients chuck along happily in DOSEMU under GNU/Linux. We actually need GNU/Linux to use our legacy software.
Any concerns about support were relieved by the fact that our university IT centre offers support for GNU/Linux (Red Hat, Suse, Debian) and given the fact that we can get GNU/Linux for almost no money, we have the money to buy Star Office (which is dirt cheap compared to MS Office) and some more hardware we need.
So, i guess there is competition for the desktop. Just SUN’s not up to it.
One of the points that is often missed.
Most people like Windows 2000/XP and are baffled
by the frequent bashing of MS and do not understand why?
On that note they are pushed away because it is abnormal
behavior or see it as being extreme.
Basically what I am trying to say is, you can lead a horse
to water, but you cannot make him drink. This is the
way Linux advocates have to show, look at the benefits,
ease of use, comparisons. Rather than the present, Windows
is evil, ect, ect.
Until this happens people will shy away from the linux
group because of feelings of hey, that is weird.
As long as M$ could add new features to their offerings,
Sun, Linux/GNU has little chance to compete with M$.
If M$ can do nothing and live on a pile of cash, they
certainly can under cut Sun’s offering and still make
money.
Anyone thinking this Sun’s poor excuse for a desktop OS can even fire one shoot at the (figuratively speaking) “enemy” (Microsoft) is completely wrong. They practically released a new theme for Gnome (and it not even a good theme) and bundled a StarOffice 7 license. That’s not a good weapon to engage with a mighty opponent.
On the other hand, people speaking about Dreamweaver, InDesign, multimedia support being better on Windows XP are also completely wrong. This desktop is for enterprises! Not for home gaming and not for watching movies or TV on your PC!
Dreamweaver can be very important for corporations, but you can run it on Linux with CroosOver Office or another emulator. This is the near future of Windows applications on the Linux side, together with filesysytem support. Better Windows API support not “clonning”. If you have a licensed windows application and can run it on Linux you can change to Linux without buying new licenses. As I see it, this can be very important for bussinesses to decide to change to Linux on a wide scale.
It may very well be true, but Windows gives you the flexibility of both, rather than just one. As well as access to a wider range of applications such as the Adobe suites
Actually, Linux also gives you choices as far as IE and MS Office are concerned. Both run flawlessly with Crossover Office and Wine. Same thing goes for Photoshop and Dreamweaver MX. I already had a copy of Office 2000, so I kept it and now use it with Linux. I have the best of both worlds!
I am so sick of the re-packaged, Linux distro system. If you are going to do it right, then hire a development Team and poll the Enterprise user group and see what it is THEY want. To me I see no benefit to the end user, why would they choose this when they can run Debian, Redhat, Suse ect. Which in fact this is (Suse linux 8.2 with Gnome desktop manager). It is like a car manufacturer re-badgeing a brand AB to brand CD and calling it new. Sorry, Sun no luck this time. Next time try being creative, not re-labeling a Linux distro and calling it ‘new’….
Has anyone here read the article? It seems to me that the snippet and title provided here on osnews takes the article very much out of context, and as a result has really colored the discussion here.
Nowhere in the article does a Sun representative claim that JDS is going to take over the desktop, or that it will out-do Microsoft, or that “the war is on”, or anything dramatic like that.
Sun’s position on this JDS is clear and even re-iterated in this article: it is targeted towards enterprise environments and will eventually include “academic institutions, government agencies and transaction workers in bank branches, retail outlets, reservationists and call centers”; it is targeted towards enterprises that are price-sensitive (i.e., not “the boardroom, executive suites or Wall Street, which has no appetite for this type of change and the cost-savings that could come with it”); it is targeted primarily for those outside of North America, “which is ‘probably the least interested'”.
Everyone and his brother recognizes that Linux does NOT provide a comprehensive desktop solution, nor is there seemingly any optimism of that changing in the near future. Whether it’s RedHat or Debian or SuSE or Sun simply plopping a Java logo on a SuSE distribution — none of them provide a complete alternative to Windows.
I think we’re all a little disappointed that Sun’s JDS isn’t the best thing since Windows XP. But that’s not their goal right now. It’s not a realistic goal. They have carved out a somewhat “niche” desktop market that they want to concentrate on and try to make some cash. If they succeed at “getting their foot in the door”, so to speak, then maybe (!MAYBE!) they can take it further, and offer a more comprehensive desktop down the line (like, WAY down the line). Or, maybe they’ll try to tie their desktop closer to the J2EE and “Java-aware” hardware (e.g., servers). Nowhere in all of this JDS hoopla have I seen Sun give one iota of evidence to make one believe that they’ve given up on selling high-end servers: that remains their bread and butter and hence, their primary focus.
All that said, the only company that could possibly be seen as being antagonized by Sun in that article was HP. Direct quote from Jonathan Schwartz, at the end of the article: “We intend to warn HP’s installed customer base that they are on a very risky trajectory [deploying Intel Itanium-based systems] and that we would like to give them a safe harbor and upgrade path.”
JMO,
John
sun now has a complete offering of hard- and software for the enterprise or big institutions (intel- and soon opteronbased hardware, jds which will mature quickly i guess, bladeservers, n1-management-software, not to forget java and new sparc-cpus next year etc.), so everything is prepared by them to profit from the expected (much) better businessclimate for it in 2004 and beyond…
sun looks a lot better than it did just 6 months ago-the only downside imo is that they didn’t innovate, but merely reacted-just time will tell if this is sufficent and/or if they have some aces up their sleeves to take the lead again! also, userlinux by bruce perens might pose a threat to their desktop-plans…
nevertheless, i’m watching their stock closely…
I read the entire article reviewing the new Sun (aka Suse Linux 8.2) with a Gnome desktop manager in place. If anyone paid any attention while reading it, the ‘segmentation faults’ are NOT acceptable for an Enterprise level operating system. What do you tell you end user when applications crash with these errors, nothing. You would have to wait for Sun to come up with a solution, first it will have to be reported back to them as a BUG in the operating system. This to me sounds more like BETA software not ready for the desktop, especially the Enterprise desktop where you need it to be fully functional and ready to work.
So, using that logic, Windows and Office are unacceptable using that logic considering that I see people on a regular basis receiving “Illegal Operation”, crashes and “freezes” when using Microsofts flag ship products.
This quirkiness gets even worse if you are using an old version of Office on a new version of Windows.
Please, remove the rose tinted glasses, all software companies are crap to some degree, it is whether you stumble over a feature not properly tested and experience a crash, that is a difference.
It will be interesting to see how it plays out, but this will hardly even dent MS desktop dominance the Corporation I work for has over 5,000 desktops running Windows 2000 Pro being upgraded with new machines because the workstations are leased and the new machines are loaded with Win XP Professional and Office XP. The reason why Corporations choose Win XP or 2000 Pro is because it is rock solid has numerous applications, plus (custom written applications for Win 2k and XP Pro) that people seem to forget about. Another fact is, all 5,000 of the end users are comfortable with the operating system and they can use it with no problems. If they have one they can call 3000 and open a ticket to have it resolved or have help and be on their way to being productive again.
I remember reading one comment stating to ‘fire people in a few months if they could not grasp a Linux desktop computer’. Sorry, but most of the upper level Leadership or Executive Leaders would fall into this category and they handle items such as budgets, metrics, and so on. They know for a fact this would cause associate satisfaction to plummet and productivity to fall of the face of the earth. Plus, they know of all the custom in house written applications would all have to be re-written or some type of garbage EMULATION software that works about as good as having a tooth ache.
Hence the reason I said that SUN should work with mono to get VB.NET and a VS IDE project parser working so that VB projects can be compiled and run using the .NET framework on Linux.
As for the comments regarding the end users, I was the one who suggested it. I have seen people been fired for not “stepping up” when management required it. If you are an accountant and fail to take on the new accountancy practices of the company, should the company just sit back and feel sorry for him?
The fact is, if management decide to move in a certain direction, unless there is something morally wrong with the decision, employees have and should never have any say. They’re there to work, plain and simply. Need they be reminded the millions who are sitting on the dole. Given the chance, I am sure *ANYONE* of those people, given the opportunity would be more than happy to get a job and in return them learning a new skill in their own time.
Regarding management, I’ve seen management and most are optimisitic irish setters blind to the bloody obvious. MBA wizz kids in the you scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours. These are the same people who wait till the last minute before cutting expenses when in actual fact, it should be an ongoing crusade by management to cut costs when ever they have the opportunity.
How about these managers think LONG TERM instead of the pathetic quarter to quarter results where they are more concerned about immediate gratification rather than the long term viability of the business.
Just look at AMP in Australia, puts all their eggs into one basket, namely the UK market, and now look what has happened. These so-called “managers” failed to follow the number one rule of investing; spread the risk over a large area. They failed to follow the basic ruls and now we have share holders with shares valued $20 lower than they were originally listed for.
To sum it up, basically the review of the new Sun Java Desktop showed the weak points and there is nothing that you can do to correct them. The ‘Segmentation faults’ are clearly NOT acceptable for an Enterprise level operating system. This is BETA software in my eyes and I have worked in IT for over 15 years. The desktop battle is not going to happen; this battle was won a long, long time ago by MS. If they were playing their cards right they would be spending R & D money on writing applications to convey and show the end user we have an agenda for this operating system. Instead of taking (Suse Linux 8.2 and using Gnome desktop manager) to change it up a bit. Then calling it ‘new’ when there is nothing new about it.
Lastly, I would expect a lot more from Sun than this, it was clearly a disappointing release and it will eventually fade away into the land of mistakes.
And for you, the only semi-valid point you bought up in your whole “sermon on the mount” was a lack of ISV support, which can be only rectified by SUN/Scott getting off their behind, go from door to door, and PAYING for the porting of applications to JDS.
“Sure they will have plenty of cash… but their stock price will plummet. And the shareholders will start howling for dividends and payments”
Little do you know about MS, hm..? It was only **NOW** that MS paid a dividend first time EVER !!
It was a pathetic payment to say the least. If they doubled their dividend, then it would be interesting. I would also find it interesting had they made it known that it would be regular occurance and not some sort of “one off”.
I think that Schwartz has demonstrated strong leadership.
Good points.
I think Sun is going for the non-US market myself, recognizing that if it can get a foothold there, it won’t have its air supply cut off a la Netscape.
It can also pose as an answer to the questions about Microsoft, to people who are seriously worried about putting their trust in a company that’s keeping its cards close to its chest.
Linux for Sun is a chance to redo the Java thing without making so many mistakes – given that only NetBSD is on more platforms.
“It is like a car manufacturer re-badgeing a brand AB to brand CD and calling it new. Sorry, Sun no luck this time. Next time try being creative, not re-labeling a Linux distro and calling it ‘new’….”
Hm, hm… appearently it has no effect whatsoever hinting people like you in every thread to how unfitting and stupid car analogies are.
Car manufacturers *DO* re-badge their cars and even on the largest possible scale because it is in fact so very successful, huh!
For example, The german Opel off General Motors is selling its *entire* line of cars under the name “Vauxhall” in the UK (and probably elsewhere) for decades — there is no such thing as a genuine Vauxhall. You get pretty much the same car whether you buy a Volkswagen, Seat, Audi or Skoda, because they all belong to Volkswagen and have the same stuff under the skin. I could go on and on and on all day long with Mercedes/Chrysler, Porsche/Volkswagen, etc, etc… but I will refrain from doing so if you promise me to finally stop the “analogy” that never was one in the first place, OK?
Coming back to re-branding Linux: If you say they could very well use Suse (or others) and then come to find in the next sentence that they actually do use Suse — what is your problem?! They do as you wish and a name an the box is merely cosmetics. Why would they re-invent the wheel? Only to make you happy? I think not…