“One of my dirty little secrets is that I have never successfully installed Linux on anything. I’ve tried many times over the years, because I bought into the idea that it could revitalize old computers. I’d cobble together a 486 processor, some no-name disk controller, a clonky old hard disk, a VGA card from the Boer War, and off we’d go. My Linux experience terminated shortly thereafter with an incomprehensible error message concerning IRQ 9, lost interrupts or goblins in the bidirectional bus buffers.” Read the commentary at ZDNews.
Almost by stealth, the Linux desktop is here
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
Wow, way to purt words in my mouth. You do realize, you’re talking to two different people (at least), right? No I don’t agree. Windows users have the freedom to not shop by compatibility lists, to not worry that their hardware is supported. Windows user have the freedom to shop for PC games at the store. Windows users have the freedom to install any software written for windows. No problems with software written for Windows 95 on Windows XP. No worrying about which packing format was used, which glibc was linked, if you have necessary dependencies, etc. Linux ties you down to trivial managing of dependencies. That’s a loss of freedom in the form of time and effort.
I don’t have these freedoms under Windows, ergo I have less freedom than in Linux. Once again you are proved wrong. And I’m still awake.
Nice try. Faulty correlation. You don’t have the ability to do those two things. If you deem such trivial things as freedoms, you can say you don’t have those freedoms. Saying you have less freedoms, implies you have considered all the freedoms and attributes of both operating systems, which we clearly have not, nor woudl it be productive to attempt to make a bullet item list of each.
With all that said, I think you take this way too seriously.
Or what else they have ? They have to do almost everything by themself – or in zealots’ term “freely” – compensating the fact that few, if any, companies take them seriously in terms of hardware support, software development.
So basically, zealots have to innovative and invent some so called freedom in obscure corners to cover the sad facts that are obvious to any sane people.
Fact: A is visiting B’s house and A should respect B’s wife
In lin-zealots’ logic, A doesn’t have certain sort of freedom.
Even worse than a zealot is you, an anti-zealot zealot.
Get a life please.
“Windows users have the freedom to not shop by compatibility lists, to not worry that their hardware is supported”
I’m afraid my more than 6 year old multimedia keyboard doesn’t work anymore in Win2k/XP (Will I get an answer having to go back to the crappy Win9x/ME?). Because there is no newer driver written by the manufacturer. Fortunately it’s so easy to remap the keys under Linux and fully utilize the special keys. Is that enough to prove you wrong?
Even worse than a zealot is you, an anti-zealot zealot.
Get a life please.
Just a little bit of fun by poking at lin-zealots 😎
There has to be some balance, I guess. if ther is no argument, then it is not good at osnews traffic. Too much or way off topic, you will see the scissors coming.
“Windows users have the freedom to not shop by compatibility lists, to not worry that their hardware is supported”
I’m afraid my more than 6 year old multimedia keyboard doesn’t work anymore in Win2k/XP (Will I get an answer having to go back to the crappy Win9x/ME?). Because there is no newer driver written by the manufacturer. Fortunately it’s so easy to remap the keys under Linux and fully utilize the special keys. Is that enough to prove you wrong?
That’s an easy case for keyboard. How about a wireless card that doesn’t have a linux dirver, a GDI printer or a scanner not supported by sane ?
Freedom can only go so far as OSS programmers have the information to do a driver, if not, they could do little and usually they will put such a piece of hardware to the shame list. It is not clear what the shame stand for, shame on OSS guys that can crack the nuts or what.
I have Plustek scanner which works much, much better under Linux than Windows: faster and it don’t freeze my whole computer while scanning. It was painful experience on Windows when scanning with resolutions >= 600dpi
Isn’t that the same case as Windows except the drivers are written by hardware manufacturers, or M$. As for my keyboard,there’s no more driver in newer Windows,but the kyboard is fully supported in Linux
have Plustek scanner which works much, much better under Linux than Windows: faster and it don’t freeze my whole computer while scanning. It was painful experience on Windows when scanning with resolutions >= 600dpi
I got a Canon FB620U scanner and it is not supported
by sane
Isn’t that the same case as Windows except the drivers are written by hardware manufacturers, or M$. As for my keyboard,there’s no more driver in newer Windows,but the kyboard is fully supported in Linux
I got a 53c416 SCSI card. Under linux, it would work with scanners, but every time a SCSI cdrom is connected to it, the 53c416 driver will crash the kernel. While under windows, it will work smoothly with either a scaner or a CD-R writer.
MS EULA and the GPL is about as unfree as something can get. I don’t see the point in either side arguing about this… it’s plain stupidity.
Reason for the MS EULA is assumingly the american laws which makes a person sue for the most ridicilous reasons…
Reason for the GPL is because Linux users wanna be radical, just like communists and such. The GPL and the reasons behind it is built based on the same reasoning as of Karl Marx.
So MS EULA which stinks and the communistic GPL (constructed after the philosophy of Marx) is just as bad…
For all those who hasn’t read any Marx, I’d say you better not gimme any zealotry back….
There are hardwares that are only supported by either OS. There’s not much point keep going on this. And I think “choice” would be more appropiate then “freedom” here.
MS EULA and the GPL is about as unfree as something can get. I don’t see the point in either side arguing about this… it’s plain stupidity.
Reason for the MS EULA is assumingly the american laws which makes a person sue for the most ridicilous reasons…
Reason for the GPL is because Linux users wanna be radical, just like communists and such. The GPL and the reasons behind it is built based on the same reasoning as of Karl Marx.
So MS EULA which stinks and the communistic GPL (constructed after the philosophy of Marx) is just as bad…
For all those who hasn’t read any Marx, I’d say you better not gimme any zealotry back….
It didn’t send first time and just stopped trying so I sent it again… I’ll put the blame on Firebird this time ^^
For me the linux desktop is ready. I play games, i see my movies, i hear my music, i download my files, i do everithing as in windoze and i have the power to control my OS, and in windows not.
Linux Desktop is ready for the people that know to do the right things….
sorry by my english.
“The dirty little secret” to which the author alludes is a rather embarrassing self-revelation. That someone who professionally writes articles for a major IT publication like zdnet has never succeeded in installing Linux on any machine, despite multiple attempts on multiple machines, is really hard to believe-unless we accept that zdnet as an institution has no real credibility as regarding the competency of those whose articles they present.
The article itself is rather absurd. At once he states that he never succeed in installing Linux, and then he states that he successfully booted one machine with Konppix, and then he deduces that “almost by stealth the Linux desktop is here”. I have installed Linux on no less than 60 different machines, ranging from ancient pre-win95 era pc’s to ultra-modern Toshiba laptops, from dual-mp gigabyte servers to 16MB 486sx machines.
I have never found a machine that I could not install Linux on. Now of course not all hardwaqre was supported, and not all hardware was supported perfectly. Years ago I blamed Linux for this- now I blame the manufacturers for producing poor implementations and providing zilch in the way of documentation. Certain companies will never ever recieve a dime from me again-supporting companies which fail to a) properly implement the spec’s upon which their technology is based(ie. toshiba and acpi) b) produce documentation of their specifications (ie. Canon) c) repsect my right as a consumer to use my purchased products for the purpose which I wish according to my needs- is simply unethical.
Moreover the article is absurd in claiming that Linux has more support for newer hardware. The author does not know what he is talking about. The fact remains that the older the hardware the more likelihood there is for good support under Linux. The truth is precisely the opposite of what the author claims. Brand new technology is usually not supported under Linux.
Luckily the author knew enough to know that he a) has a BIOS and B) can change a setting to be able to boot from CD. Of course he apparently never learned how to shut down the built in BIOS PnP allocation which was causing him his IRQ headaches, let alone checking the dip switches on his ancient network and sound cards. But yet again Windows only works with this stuff due to incredibly horrendous hacks-the PnP spec as implemented by Windows was and continues to be a POS and the hacks necessary to make all the hardware “work” led to a horrible buggy, crash prone operating system.
That someone working as a journalist for a major IT publication is only able to get Knoppix working(ie not installed) and only in 2004 is an absolute joke-it reflects horrbily on zdnet and even more so on the author himself. His lack of basic computer competency renders his insights to being trivial. I am happy for him that he finally succeeded in doing something that almost any person with access to a pc and knoppix cd can do. It is just mind numbing that this a) counts as journalism and b) that he deduces on the basis of this that Linux is now “ready for the desktop”.
I know that Linux is ready for the desktop for the vast majority of people who use PC’s on their desktops. As a sys admin I provide Linux solutions for the desktop to people who have virtually no computer experience whatsoever, but must use computers for doing research and preparing documents including complex documents like that of a master’s thesis. I have implemented this on a dual mp Athlon 2400 system connected to 20 ancient (ie. pre-1995) pc’s via LTSP.
On the basis of this experience and countless more I conclude that the article is itself a total joke. The author does not know what he is talking about. He is incompetent as regards computers. His logic is absurd.
In fact the trolling apparent in this thread is for the most part of a higher niveau than that of the article itself. It is just a shame that each time an article appears about Linux being ready for the desktop that the discussion turns into such a free for all for clueless opiniated fools who pedanticly criticize each other with broad sweeping generalizations which are utterly meaningless.
Of ocurse such discussions could be a place for fruitfull discussions of diffculties and solutions, a place where those who have more knowledge could share with those who are quite new to the topic at hand. But then again that would be expecting far too much.
That’s a bit different. With GPL, the benefit could be everyone’s, but in a communist country, few benefits as a side effect of human nature.
I would think politics and agreements are complete different things.
The ideas may be similar, but if the system works, then why not? Communism may not be practically viable in the politic world but it doesn’t mean it won’t work in other areas. (Note I do against communism as in politics)
That someone working as a journalist for a major IT publication is only able to get Knoppix working(ie not installed) and only in 2004 is an absolute joke-it reflects horrbily on zdnet and even more so on the author himself
Not every one is a sysadmin. I think it reflects how inconsistent linux distro’s are in regarding to installation on different PCs.
As for PnP, it at leat refects M$’ effort to let most hardware work with less effort on the users’ part.
Except for the real thing – selecting hardware.
Nice to see we can agree the GPL is a communistic approach.
But what the communistic approach is about according to Marx is “Revolution” over and over again.. like GPL revolution vs the big proprietary stuff, and when that is done, theoretically a new revolution will come into place etc… That’s why GPL advocates are so full of hatred..
Point is though, that capitalism has already proved communism to be a complete failure. In the software industry this would apply to the simple basics about choice as in freedom of choice.
GPL advocates/communists wants to eliminate choice and options by pushing in Linux everywhere and ELIMINATING any opposition.
What makes it especially dangerous is the misuse of words that confuse people.
_______
Definition of “Free”
1. Exempt from subjection to the will of others; not under
restraint, control, or compulsion; able to follow one’s own impulses, desires, or inclinations; determining one’s own course of action; not dependent; at liberty.
Definition of “Freedom”
The state of being free; exemption from the power and
control of another; liberty; independence.
________________
People get this RMS confusion about the word free and freedom. GPL isn’t free as it isn’t independent… there are so many restrictions on it it’s horrible. It’s based on communistic ideals and it can only get the world go one way… DOWN!
still your wifi card _is_ supported in linux, as i’ve shown and linked before; http://acx100.sourceforge.net/index.html
give it a rest, when you’re right you’re wrong and when you’re wrong you’re right, the world will revolve yet another day, the sun shines outside, let it lick your skin for a tiny moment of fortitude.
“wants to eliminate choice and options by pushing in Linux everywhere and ELIMINATING any opposition.”
And that’s a *good* thing. You know why? Because average users don’t WANT to choose! They want you to choose for them! Choice only confuses them. Just read all the Slashdot/OSNews comments: each and every time there are hundreds of people complaining that the hundreds of distributions/text editors/word procesors/browsers confuse the hell out of users and that’s why Linux “will never succeed on the desktop”. GPL “communists” eluminate choice, therebefore making computers easier to use. More power to them.
still your wifi card _is_ supported in linux, as i’ve shown and linked before; http://acx100.sourceforge.net/index.html
It will lockup linux systems as I read on the net.
I had similar experience with my old 53c416 scsi card.
Linux got built-in driver for that card, yet it will crap out the kernel with scsi cdrom drives, so …
I am considering purchasing a DWL-520 wifi card for use in my linux box, and after checking the list, I felt my choices are limited for real.
So windows is a better choice for that one and only one choice, 97% of users don’t even need to be retrained.
heh, i dunno i use it daily, and the dwl-122 is grand too; i happened to have had one of the 53c416 cards from adaptec and you’re obviously full of it, the drivers wouldnt be included in the kernel or advertised as working if they didnt work, you see we tend to put a disclaimer up if otherwise …
some food for thought:
you are complaining about something that you get for free, i would’nt imagine that you would as asinine as this when your friends buy you some food or treat you to dinner, at no cost for you, or … do you?
1) If Windows is so perfect at detecting and supporting hardware, how come every customer I see enter a shop ask whether the particular piece of hardware is supported by Windows and whether they’re required to purchase any extra software to use it.
The fact is, all operating systems have their hardware support limitations. Windows for example kept re-detecting the modem everytime the computer rebooted. Now, that wouldn’t be such an issue if it actually used the correct driver! the fact is, it detected it and installed the wrong driver out of the driver respositry (drivers.cab).
So for me, actually running FreeBSD and Linux provided much better hardware support for my modem. I could reboot till my hearts content knowing that my modem will work without the need to load the modem configuration tool, remove the old setting and install the drivers again.
2) For the “Office facist” who fired two employees. I find the story very hard to believe, however, if it were true I certainly wouldn’t have fired them. I would have sat them down, explained the limitations of what they can do with the companies computer and then get them to sign a contract that states that if they try another stunt like that, their employment would be immediately terminated
With that being said, if it was in an IT centric setting, I would also tell talk to them and ask why they wanted to install it. If employees concerned wanted to brush up their UNIX/LINUX skills then I would see about trying to get some retired computers sent over to their cubical/office, however, I would also stress that the learning should be done outside office hours; before after work or during lunch/breaks.
If the employees are taking it upon themselves to “upskill” in areas that maybe of use to the company then the employees should be encouraged through what ever means the company can provide. If you aren’t investing into your people, the only person you can blame when they leave is yourself. People aren’t simply going to stick around in an organisation where by their personal and professional being is not challenged and encouraged to take the extra step in realising their potential.
3) People here lose sight of the fact that what sells operating systems is software NOT the operating system itself. Windows XP sales *only* started to pick up once XP-centric applications were released and an incentive was give to the end user to either upgrade their operating system or replace their whole computer.
Talk to any user 2 years ago and their main concern wasn’t hardware support but whether or not their application will run. Hardware support with Windows XP was a no-brainer, if your computer was made 6 months before Windows XP was released, you shouldn’t have any problems.
What people were worried about, in many cases, is that they’ve just bought software just under a year ago and don’t want to be told that they should shell out another wad of cash. 2 years later, they now feel that they’re ready to upgrade, they find that their new piece of software is now XP compatible and that most of the kinks have been worked out of Windows XP thus making the upgrade possible.
Put yourself into the shoes of Joe user, they’ve just bought a PC from Dell and they’ve decided to install Red Hat Linux Enterprise WS. They’ve installed it and everything worked nicely, however, now they sit their wondering where they get applications from. Can they just go down to Dick Smiths/Harvey Norman/Domayne/David Jones/Grace Brothers/Myers to purchase a card making kit for the local bridge club? can they by a copy of MYOB to do their small business accounting on and also the ability to lodge the claim to the ATO through a nice wizard?
These are things that are ALWAYS deliberately ignored by Linux advocates. They’re the hard bits, that would actually mean talking to another human and addressing the problem of the end user.
Instead of addressing those problems we have these Linux advocates go out and write a pointless “applet” or yet ANOTHER desktop claiming that it will be yet ANOTHER “lightweight and extensible desktop”.
End users aren’t going to use an operating system for the feel good factor. An operating system is a means to an end. An operating system is there so that they can run applications on their computer. These applications are there to allow the end user to make their life easier. Write letters, create cards, cd covers, surf for information.
Incase people here don’t actually realise, people have more important things to do in their life than trying to work out how their computer works and how they should resolve problems. The fact is 99% of users neither care nor want to care how their computer works. They simply want to turn on the computer, run their applications they want, get the work accomplished then go off and do something else.
The computer is seen by the end user as a tool, not as a replacement for human contact (like many geeks here think it is). It is there to get work done. Turn on, load application, get work done, save, print, shut down computer. It is like a car, get it, belt on, get from A to B then from B to A. Mission accomplished, task completed.
4) GNOME and KDE need to sit down and develop an end to end unified high level API. One that handles sound, inter-application communication, embedding, network protocols and so forth. The only thing that should be different in the end is the widget kit and even that should be nullified to such a point that the end user doesn’t notice if they’re running a GTK application or a qt one.
The fact is, the end user doesn’t care. The question isn’t, “what toolkit does this application use?” the question is actually, “does this piece of software solve my problem?”.
Toolkits can be a cause religious wars, however, lets for the sake of the Linux desktop keep the end user out of it. The fact is, the end user doesn’t care which one is superior. If they can get their work done, to them, it is achieved what he wants.
Unified look and feel and unified HIG. The technical details and debates can be left to the few zealots who feel inclined to argue. The fact is, commercial software vendors have no time for such time wasting. They’ve got to develop and application, pump it out, make a profit then re-invest it back and repeat the cycle.
Yes, OSS can potificate for years but the fact is, if there is no unified high level API for Linux desktop, the cost for the commercial vendor will keep climing to the point the commercial vendor will say, “we can’t afford it as I doubt that will make out money back due to the complexity of the numerous apis and possible interoperability issue that could arrise”.
“[…] In the software industry this would apply to the simple basics about choice as in freedom of choice.”
Indeed. And the GPL _grants_ freedom above of copyrighted work. The hardware industry, for one, kinda likes the GPL. Take SGI for example. They endorse the GPL. It means their product cannot be made proprietary (but can be sold, oops, damn, that’s not communism!), but on the contrary they make contributions to Linux and support it. FLOSS, otoh, they ported to IRIX allowing IRIX users to run these fine pieces of software.
Still, you have the freedom to code something from ground in non-GPL code or use GPL utilities in your effort. Therefore it is theoretically impossible to build a lock-in. So all your paranoid “revolution” babbling is out of line. Since humanity will never agree 100%, it is unlikely humanity will ever chose to go 100% for GPL. This has already pointed out by the huge variety of available Free licenses: http://www.opensource.org
On the contrary it is possible FLOSS will become even more popular, changing either the way of life with software to Free standards or leading proprietary software to become better because of the Free and free alternatives which compete. That’s a win-win if you ask me.
“GPL advocates/communists wants to eliminate choice and options by pushing in Linux everywhere and ELIMINATING any opposition. […]”
Nowhere has Linus ever written this. In fact, Linus has claimed various times quite the opposite: he wants diversity. With 90% MS Windows, there isn’t much diversity, yes?
In the FLOSS camp there’s also projects like Debian GNU/HURD (that’s not “Linux”), and Debian GNU/K*BSD (that’s not “Linux”).
Nowhere has RMS written what you claim either; he doesn’t even like the Linux kernel’s monolithic design!
So who wrote it? Please show your sources.
For the rest, have you ever heard of “capitalist zealot” or “proprietary zealot”? Thought so. Those people who really think they’re living in a free country are a joke. Those who don’t fight for freedom are another reason for the word “apathic”.
some food for thought:
you are complaining about something that you get for free, i would’nt imagine that you would as asinine as this when your friends buy you some food or treat you to dinner, at no cost for you, or … do you?
So, I basically lost the freedom of complaining in addition to choosing hardware at will ?
The difference is that I need hardware to use with linux and tweaking linux needs my time. So when lin-zealots hype it to the sky level and it doesn’t deliver, I put serious doubt on it.
no you lost the right to complain when you started to lie about the reasons your “linux experience went cold turkey”
Nice to see we can agree the GPL is a communistic approach.
This is coming from a person who never studied communism. Ever read the communist manefesto? how about the many books out there which dive into the nature of communism and WHY it fails.
But what the communistic approach is about according to Marx is “Revolution” over and over again.. like GPL revolution vs the big proprietary stuff, and when that is done, theoretically a new revolution will come into place etc… That’s why GPL advocates are so full of hatred..
As far as I see it, there is no monopoly on IP. IP is a never ending resource which keeps expanding. In the IT world no one can say that they have a IP monopoly. They may have an ADVANTAGE but no a monopoly.
Again, maybe you should READ about Karl Marx and relate to the circumstances around him when it was written. I’m not going to go into details as I already know what they are, instead, maybe you should read and learn.
Point is though, that capitalism has already proved communism to be a complete failure. In the software industry this would apply to the simple basics about choice as in freedom of choice.
Again, you have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe you should take a look at the various economic policies in the Soviet Union.
GPL advocates/communists wants to eliminate choice and options by pushing in Linux everywhere and ELIMINATING any opposition.
What makes it especially dangerous is the misuse of words that confuse people.
Great, now we have the great Swede who rallys against communism and yet has the same approach his government has, “everyone is stupid and as such there needs to be nanny state to stop the poor souls from being confused with such *BIG* words”.
GPL is freedom with limitations. RMS has made NO appologies about it NOR has be tried to hide the fact there are limitations and he goes to great lengths to explain the rationale he uses for placing those limitations.
The fact is I DON’T agree with RMS or the GPL/LGPL but I certainly don’t jump onto a forum then proceed to slander all and sundry using provocative words such as “communism”.
Yes, I’ve been to Sweden and I know what YOUR nanny state is like. Lets put it this way, if there is a broken traffic light and it is stuck on red, I’ll put money on it, the car will NOT move a centimetre. That is the logic in many scandinavian countries, personal freedom given up for the promise of free health, education and the ability to be taxed to the grave and beyond.
Sorry, I want to make mistakes, and I certainly don’t want to be told by some MP that I’m too stupid to make my own decisions so instead I should be taxed to death and the decision of how money should be spent should be passed along to some inefficient paper shuffler in a cossie government office with the attitude of “we know whats best for you, leave it all to us”.
We had that in New Zealand for 50 years and by cricky, I can assure you that the vast majority of New Zealanders don’t want to go back to the days of a regulated money supply, 200% tariffs, quotas, price controls, top tax rate of 66% and numerous other state controls.
Linux works for me. It supports the hardware I use; I don’t always bother to check compatability lists. It supports almost all the hardware I’ve tried to run knoppix on. It doesn’t have as wide of support as Windows does, but it’s gotten close in with most categories of hardware. Neither Windows nor Linux have perfect hardware support; I had a printer which would crash Windows 98 every time I tried to print more than one page of a Microsoft Word document (any Word document…) at a time. Likewise, I have a scanner which does -not- work under Windows; a digital camera I bought (and returned) did not work under Windows either. With both the scanner and the camera, the install procedures were horrible, and would crash, consistantly.
Overall, I’ve found myself happier with Linux’s hardware support recently; it’s not as good as I’d like, but it’s Good Enough for the stuff I use, and I actually like xsane, audacity, and cdrecord/k3b, a lot better than the software I used for scanning and recording audio under Windows.
In terms of apps, yes, Linux is definately behind. That said, there is a -lot- there; there’s > 70k files in portage now. Some speciality apps aren’t available; non-fps proprietary games are lacking; it could use more chess training software, and support for kareoke extensions to CDs. You can’t run most software you’d buy off the shelf at a local computer store under Linux – but in _many_ cases, a similar or better program is available freely for Linux.
There are people who can’t use Linux for their primary OS because of unsupported software/hardware. They’re an ever-diminishing minority.
It’s been my desktop OS for years, and I think it’s great. Not perfect, but better than anything else currently available.
“some food for thought: you are complaining about something that you get for free, i would’nt imagine that you would as asinine as this when your friends buy you some food or treat you to dinner, at no cost for you, or … do you?”
So, I basically lost the freedom of complaining in addition to choosing hardware at will ?
The difference is that I need hardware to use with linux and tweaking linux needs my time. So when lin-zealots hype it to the sky level and it doesn’t deliver, I put serious doubt on it.
So in other words, you don’t use Linux because it doesn’t meet your requirements. If those requires are good hardware support and application availability, why didn’t you just simply say, “Linux isn’t suitable for my needs, however, I am sure that given a different set of circumstances, it may suite the needs of another user.” Had you said that, it would have been finished 100 posts ago.
The fact is, you dragged it on and on and on. I use MacOS X, and it is well and truely known in “there here parts” that I use MacOS X because Linux/FreeBSD lacks the applications I need.
I receive no backlash or “holy war”. Possibly a few suggestions and possibly a senario of a person in a similar circumstances. The fact is, if you are flamed, most of the time you bought it upon yourself.
So in other words, you don’t use Linux because it doesn’t meet your requirements. If those requires are good hardware support and application availability, why didn’t you just simply say, “Linux isn’t suitable for my needs, however, I am sure that given a different set of circumstances, it may suite the needs of another user.” Had you said that, it would have been finished 100 posts ago.
I use linux where I see fit – mostly as a server and both at work and in my home. Further, I do appreciate the work the OSS guy put together in a variety of areas. However, I would also like to speak when something is hype beyond the reality and poking fun at zealots – finishing this thing 100 posts ago isn’t really good for osnews, is it ?
I use linux where I see fit – mostly as a server and both at work and in my home. Further, I do appreciate the work the OSS guy put together in a variety of areas. However, I would also like to speak when something is hype beyond the reality and poking fun at zealots – finishing this thing 100 posts ago isn’t really good for osnews, is it ?
But why continue arguing. Assuming they’re zealots (as you claim), by definition, they’re nreasonable and unwilling to compromise or listen to other peoples opinion, so why, may I ask do you continue debating with them?
The fact is EVERY operating system or application as a loyal band of zealots. There are Mac zealots, Windows zealots, Quark XPress zealots, Adobe zealots. There are zealots of all shapes and sizes.
The vast majority of Linux users are willing to accept if Linux isn’t suitable for an end user, however, it is unfortunate that a small but vocal group get the spotlight everytime the red herring of “Linux on the desktop” is started.
The fact is Linux isn’t ready because it lacks a uniform Linux distribution standard so that ISV’s and IHV’s can develop drivers and software for distributions without the need of testing their software on every major distribution. There is a gradual move towards a split, SuSE on one side and Red Hat on the other. If that is the worse case senario then it will no worse than company making sure that their win32 application can run on Windows 9x and NT lines.
‘NVIDIA’s graphics cards have 100% functionality under Linux. Same speed, all the same OpenGL extensions, and all the features like TwinView’
Have you actually tried TwinView? It’s a hell of a long way from being as functional as Nvidia’s dual headed display support in Windows.
It basically uses Xinerama with some tweaks and still has a lot of the same problems. In Windows you can happily have any combination of monitor positioned how you want, while TwinView expects both monitors to be the same size and lined up side by side. Otherwise you get problems with dead areas, toolbars and parts of full screen apps can be hidden off screen.
It also has much more of a performance penalty than a Windows dual headed display and it’s much more hassle to configure. In Windows when you install the Nvidia drivers it adds the Nvidia features to the Display control panel. Even the most advanced options can be accessed through a control panel tab. While in Linux you still have to edit your XF86config file, here are the instructions:
ftp://download.nvidia.com/XFree86/Linux-x86/1.0-5328/README
Here’s a section of the TwinView configuration instructions:
A single MetaMode describes what mode should be used on each display device at a given time. Multiple MetaModes list the combinations of modes and the sequence in which they should be used. When the NVIDIA driver tells X what modes are available, it is really the minimal bounding box of the MetaMode that is communicated to X, while the “per display device” mode is kept internal to the NVIDIA driver. In MetaMode syntax, modes within a MetaMode are comma separated, and multiple MetaModes are separated by semicolons. For example:
“<mode name 0>, <mode name 1>; <mode name 2>, <mode name 3>”
Where <mode name 0> is the name of the mode to be used on display device 0 concurrently with <mode name 1> used on display device 1. A mode switch will then cause <mode name 2> to be used on display device 0 and <mode name 3> to be used on display device 1.
Dual headed display support is the no.1 reason why I went back to Windows, functionality under Linux is very far from being 100%.
“…The difference is that I need hardware to use with linux and tweaking linux needs my time. So when lin-zealots hype it to the sky level and it doesn’t deliver, I put serious doubt on it…”
The same thing can be said about Windows. I have yet to use a Windows XP computer that works correctly. Whether it has been crashing video drivers installed by the XP cd, taskbars that dissapear unexpectedly and cannot be brought back, clicking on buttons in the taskbar and the wrong program is brought to the front. MS word or Outlook crashes intermittaently, explorer seemingly randomly displaying or not displaying subfolders, new version of program being virtually incompatible with the previous version (Visual Basic .NET for example) and many others. The response from the Windows ethusiasts is always something like….
“you installed it incorrectly”
“it will not work if you do not know what you are doing”
“you have obscure harware”
“installing third party software is your problem”
But wait? From reading the Windows ethusiast praise of Windows, I thought Windows was so simple even an idiot could install and use it. I thought it had such advance hardware compatibility that it worked on virtually any hardware. I thought that it was the superior operating system because it had endless software to use with it (but appearantly when chanllenged, it seems only Microsoft software is useable).
Concludions:
So when WIN-zealots hype it to the sky level and it doesn’t deliver, I put serious doubt on it…
The endless hype about the supposed benefits of Windows XP is not exceeded by the hype of the supposed benefits of Linux or any other operating system.
I meet blockheads like you on a daily basis,and you remind me of the IT “professionals” at my job,tunnel vision like that only serves to crush many new ideas and innovations,go ahead and eliminate anyone that would disagree with you,and keep on spending your company’s $$$$ on big buck Micro$oft software,BECAUSE YOU ARE AFRAID OR TOO STUPID TO LEARN ANYTHING NEW.One of these days one of those employees may just convince your boss that all the money they are spending maintaining thier computers with windows and paying you to configure the stuff from wizards that even a chimpanzee could understand,would be better spent on paying a person that really knows how to configure a system with free software.spend the rest on improving the business!
YOU HAVE MY FULL SUPPORT AND PERMISSION TO MOD THIS COMMENT DOWN TOO EUGENIA,I WANT IT TO BE RIGHT ALONGSIDE THIS SELF RITEOUS BOZO’S COMMENT!!!!!!!!!
Just a little bit of fun by poking at lin-zealots 😎
There has to be some balance, I guess. if ther is no argument, then it is not good at osnews traffic. Too much or way off topic, you will see the scissors coming.
Do you realize that your posts are against the OSNews terms (http://osnews.com/rules.php) of usage, which you agreed to? Eugenia has designed these terms to keep your nasty connotations and “poking fun” posts off of OSNews, because they degrade the discourse provided.
RE:JK
I use Opera 99% of the time, but I still encounter IE only websites quite often. I’ve been shopping around for an MP3 player today and I’ve hit several sites that wouldn’t work in Opera. Here’s an example: http://www.advancedmp3players.co.uk/shopping/pages/buyiriver2mp3.ht….. the online ordering and a lot of the links will not work.
It works in Moz, at least for me.
Maybe Mozilla is more compatible than Opera, but personally I’d like the option of an industry standard browser so that I can be sure that every site is accessible.
Moz IS the most standards compliant broswer out there.
RE: Anonymous (IP: —.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net)
Just can’t read hypes without reaching the keyboard. However, as I see it, Windows is the main stream, despite its security holes, virus, etc and Linux is pretty much the third underdog on the desktop. So lin-zealots have to hype it to get attention, just like the second, third child in a family are more likely to take drastic actions.
That’s a bunch of bull. Who cares if they are the underdog? That just proves that they are not as popular, it says nothing about how sound the technology is. Your analogy is even funnier because that theory has been proven false.
RE: Anonymous (IP: —.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net)
Longhorn has preview kit as well, in addition to documentation and tool kits for developers.
Too bad there is no 3d hardware accelerated desktop in the Longhorn preview yet.
MPlayer is much more advanced that WMP, starts up faster and plays more file formats.
Except it is butt ugly.
Mplayer is ugly? It’s just a screen, no playskool looking window decorations like WMP. It has an easy to use keyboard driven command interface and plays just about anything under the sun. What can you complain about?
In my original post, I also mentioned DWL-520+ wireless card and it is a no go for linux, is that true or not true ?
So zealots have
1) NO freedom in choosing hardware, and then
2) they don’t have software to adequately using those few that deemed linux compatible.
That’s quite a leap to claim that because one wireless card doesn’t work that you have NO freedom in choosing hardware. I can’t even respond to your second point because it makes no sense.
You are a moron if you can’t give an example to suggest otherwise 😎 Every body could dream that money would grow on trees in their backyard 😎
If you pay to watch TV on cable/satellite system or pay to get internet access, you would eventually get use to DRM in the future and OSS will have to catch on in this area. It is sad but it will be the trend when hardware based solution comes into play.
That’s really, really dumb. DRM was an utter failure on the Xbox, no hardware vendor is presently selling a DRM enabled desktop, and there has been continued opposition to the idea, so it’s a little premature to be claiming that DRM is the one and only future of the PC.
You are brain washed and can’t admit that you lin zealots DO NOT have the freedom to no check the “list” and have fewer selection of usable hardware.
I’ve built 6 linux computers at home without checking the list once and they all work. Every single piece of hardware in all the machines work perfectly with Linux. Quit trolling.
RE: Anonymous (IP: —.cm-upc.chello.se)
For all those who hasn’t read any Marx, I’d say you better not gimme any zealotry back….
I have read Marx. So what? Who cares if it resembles some of his ideas? It is working out quite nicely for Linux. Don’t be afraid of the word communist just because that’s the label America gave our enemies for 40 years. In fact none of those countries were communist at all, they just used the name.
Point is though, that capitalism has already proved communism to be a complete failure. In the software industry this would apply to the simple basics about choice as in freedom of choice.
More of the same. Capitalism didn’t prove anything. Communim wasn’t a failed experiment, it was one that was never tried before, and if you think America is purely capitalist you are dead wrong. That doesn’t work out so nicely either as you may have been able to tell by the scandals produced by deregulation.
Do you realize that your posts are against the OSNews terms (http://osnews.com/rules.php) of usage, which you agreed to? Eugenia has designed these terms to keep your nasty connotations and “poking fun” posts off of OSNews, because they degrade the discourse provided.
I agree that she has the authority to cut out any post that she sees as not up to the osnews standards. In the past, a few of my posts did got mod down and from there, I learned where in the ball park is the limit.
At the mean time, from arguments with fellow readers here, lin-zealots or not, win-zealots or not, I learned what linux distro are up to recently and where are exactly the limitations, if any. To me, this is more fun than say I dig out the facts by myself – I am a windows user and simply don’t have enough time to tweak every areas I might be interested in linux/gun desktops.
To me, OSNews represents a middle ground between no arguments, and slashdot – the former isn’t exactly constructive and the later is too noisy with too many posts on every topics, which is hard to follow on a given topic.
As to the OSNews terms, I have never read it, however, I would agree with what the red text would suggest down there and rely on Eugenia’s scissor to draw the exact rules in sands. SO for me the following style of comments look funny
YOU HAVE MY FULL SUPPORT AND PERMISSION TO MOD THIS COMMENT DOWN TOO EUGENIA,I WANT IT TO BE RIGHT ALONGSIDE THIS SELF RITEOUS BOZO’S COMMENT!!!!!!!!!
Eugenia or OSNews have the final say here, with or without a poster’s support and/or “permission”. I suppose I don’t have any right to permission here.
Just can’t read hypes without reaching the keyboard. However, as I see it, Windows is the main stream, despite its security holes, virus, etc and Linux is pretty much the third underdog on the desktop…
That’s a bunch of bull. Who cares if they are the underdog?
lin-zealots, for example.
MPlayer is much more advanced that WMP, starts up faster and plays more file formats.
Except it is butt ugly.
Mplayer is ugly? It’s just a screen, no playskool looking window decorations like WMP. It has an easy to use keyboard driven command interface and plays just about anything under the sun. What can you complain about?
Mplayer is butt ugly eventhough it plays all file formats and with keyboard shortcuts.
You are brain washed and can’t admit that you lin zealots DO NOT have the freedom to no check the “list” and have fewer selection of usable hardware.
I’ve built 6 linux computers at home without checking the list once and they all work. Every single piece of hardware in all the machines work perfectly with Linux. Quit trolling.
That’s called luck and didn’t reflect the overall picture on hardware support for linux.
“SELF RITEOUS BOZO’S”
Well, you still don’t understand the terms as far as I can tell. You’re still attacking people, as you have been.
But wait? From reading the Windows ethusiast praise of Windows, I thought Windows was so simple even an idiot could install and use it. I thought it had such advance hardware compatibility that it worked on virtually any hardware. I thought that it was the superior operating system because it had endless software to use with it (but appearantly when chanllenged, it seems only Microsoft software is useable).
Windows has a higher percentage of sucessful rate for people have little or no experience at tweaking cmputers.
Virtually any hardware will support windows and a lot of them are Windows exclusive.
So when WIN-zealots hype it to the sky level and it doesn’t deliver, I put serious doubt on it…
The difference is fewer people will aggree with you.
The fact is there is little commercial hardware/software that are exclusive for the linux desktop.
“SELF RITEOUS BOZO’S”
Well, you still don’t understand the terms as far as I can tell. You’re still attacking people, as you have been.
Attacking lin-zealots might be a more accurate term – they even give “permission” to be mod down – where is the right for permission comes from ? An OSS spell checker ? or an KDE tooltip ?
If you’re having problems with people understanding you, maybe you shoud invest in installing an open source spell checker.
There are quite some good resources for NVidia and Twinview. This is one: http://www.sh.nu/nvidia/
Mplayer is butt ugly eventhough it plays all file formats and with keyboard shortcuts.
How can it be butt ugly? It is the cleanest interface you can have. It is JUST the screen. No window decorations except the titlebar, which I disable in WindowMaker. You are making no sense and giving no examples of why it is butt ugly.
That’s called luck and didn’t reflect the overall picture on hardware support for linux.
No the overall picture here is that you are trying to use arguments from 1995. Linux supports tons of hardware in 2004. Not only did all six of my computers work fine but so did my scanner and my printer. This is not uncommon. I am in the process of building a very nice PC with Linux for my brother and I did not look at the compatibitlity list until after I was done picking components out. Guess what? Everything I picked works fine. It is a rather high end PC too.
Mplayer is butt ugly eventhough it plays all file formats and with keyboard shortcuts.
I agree, ive never really liked the skins that are available on their homepage. I just use the terminal
Unattended install and removal of multiple programs? This is one of things I really like about Linux distros, where i can tell it to install or uninstall dozens of programs and just walk away and let it work.
Wow, way to purt words in my mouth. You do realize, you’re talking to two different people (at least), right?
Er, I was clearly responding to the pacbell troll. Look it up. Are you saying that you two are one and the same?
Now, I imagine you were the one to accuse me of hiding my identity behind multiple nicknames? Perhaps if you actually used a nickname we wouldn’t be able to say the same thing about you…
“still your wifi card _is_ supported in linux, as i’ve shown and linked before; http://acx100.sourceforge.net/index.html“
It will lockup linux systems as I read on the net.
So, you admit you haven’t tried it. I guess you don’t want to because, if it did, you’d have one less argument against Linux.
I had similar experience with my old 53c416 scsi card.
Linux got built-in driver for that card, yet it will crap out the kernel with scsi cdrom drives, so …
What kernel version was that?
I am considering purchasing a DWL-520 wifi card for use in my linux box, and after checking the list, I felt my choices are limited for real.
Two things here:
a) I don’t think you actually have a Linux box. You’re only saying this to give some legitimacy to your anti-Linux trolling.
b) There are hundreds of wi-fi cards, the vast majority work very well with Linux. You have the freedom to support those that do with your hard-earned dollars.
Again, I don’t think you’re really interested in Linux getting more hw support anyway, because that would take away your main argument against the (truly free) OS.
TwinView works really well on my Linux box. What functionality am I missing?
As for the GUI control panel, the latest NVIDIA drivers for Linux have it, as I understand it.
Mplayer is butt ugly eventhough it plays all file formats and with keyboard shortcuts.
You’ve been repeating this bull since yesterday. Why not put your money where your mouth is and explain to us exactly how it is any uglier than the bloated, Fischer-Price WMP?
There are some cool-looking skins for MPlayer, and there are front-ends which make it consistent with Gnome and KDE – more consistent than WMP with Windows.
Nah, you’ll just repeat “Mplayer is butt-ugly, Mplayer is butt-ugly, I can’t hear you, nah nah nah nah…”, because – as you’ve admitted it yourself – you’re just here to troll and provoke reactions from Linux advocates.
In other words, you’re wasting everyone’s time.
I had similar experience with my old 53c416 scsi card.
Linux got built-in driver for that card, yet it will crap out the kernel with scsi cdrom drives, so …
What kernel version was that?
[root@linbox root]# uname -r
2.4.20-18.9_me
Two things here:
a) I don’t think you actually have a Linux box. You’re only saying this to give some legitimacy to your anti-Linux trolling.
[root@linbox root]# dmesg | grep -I scsi
scsi0 : Adaptec AIC7XXX EISA/VLB/PCI SCSI HBA DRIVER, Rev 6.2.8
(scsi0:A:4): 10.000MB/s transfers (10.000MHz, offset 15)
Attached scsi CD-ROM sr0 at scsi0, channel 0, id 4, lun 0
sr0: scsi3-mmc drive: 0x/0x dvd-ram cd/rw xa/form2 cdda tray
b) There are hundreds of wi-fi cards, the vast majority work very well with Linux. You have the freedom to support those that do with your hard-earned dollars.
yet I don’t have the freedom to use the card I want to purchase with linux for the time being.
Again, I don’t think you’re really interested in Linux getting more hw support anyway,
If I purchase a linux supported card, there will be less incentive for oss guys to write dirvers for unsuppoted devices.
because that would take away your main argument against the (truly free) OS.
To me FreeBSD etc represents something called truly free.
I am not against linux, just lin-zealots hyping out of reality.
Windows has a higher percentage of sucessful rate for people have little or no experience at tweaking cmputers.
Grammatical and spelling mistakes notwithstanding, can you please point us to reliable data that proves this statement?
http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=5707
Don’t say this guy is an idiot
If I purchase a linux supported card, there will be less incentive for oss guys to write dirvers for unsuppoted devices.
But there will be more incentive for companies that produce the card to write drivers for it, and will be positive reinforcement for does that already do.
To me FreeBSD etc represents something called truly free.
You’re bein self-contradictory (again): FreeBSD doesn’t have the same level of hardware support as Linux, and yet you consider it to be freer?
I am not against linux, just lin-zealots hyping out of reality.
And I am not against Windows, just wintrolls who attack Linux every chance they get.
Please, can we be serious for one minute?
First, an opinion – no matter by whom – is not what I’d consider reliable data. It’s an opinion. So already your answer is unsatisfactory.
Second, have you even read the article? Linus doesn’t talk about ease of use, or how Windows is easier for persons who have little or no experience to tweak, nor does he say that it will take between 5 and 10 years for Linux to be desktop-ready. He says that it will take 5 to 10 years before Linux is commonly found on Joe Home User’s desktop.
As I’ve written in that other thread:
“Market share has little to do with techical and ergonomical merit, but rather is the direct results of economics, marketing, and consumer habits.”
A good example: OS X is more than ready for the desktop, and yet it remains a marginal OS. Ergo, technical quality and usability do not translate directly into market share.
So, again, you fail to support your assertions with facts. Aren’t you getting a little tired of making these unsupported claims?
To me FreeBSD etc represents something called truly free.
You’re bein self-contradictory (again): FreeBSD doesn’t have the same level of hardware support as Linux, and yet you consider it to be freer?
That’s two different kinds of freedom – to me FreeBSD has fewer strings attached in spirit than GPL styled linux. The freedom I have beening talking about is on hardware selection. So don’t mix the context.
So why don’t you ask linus for data that you would have considered reliable ?
As I’ve written in that other thread:
“Market share has little to do with techical and ergonomical merit, but rather is the direct results of economics, marketing, and consumer habits.”
A good example: OS X is more than ready for the desktop, and yet it remains a marginal OS. Ergo, technical quality and usability do not translate directly into market share.
So, again, you fail to support your assertions with facts. Aren’t you getting a little tired of making these unsupported claims?
You failed to see the reality – if linux could help companies bottom lines and is also easier to use for their customers, the fact will be reflected in terms of market shares. Don’t confuse the potential with reality.
So why don’t you ask linus for data that you would have considered reliable ?
No, I’m asking you because you’re the one who made the claim. Again, you’re trying to deflect counter-arguments without actually making one of your own.
So, where’s the data?
You failed to see the reality – if linux could help companies bottom lines and is also easier to use for their customers, the fact will be reflected in terms of market shares.
Linux does help bottom lines, and is not particularly harder to use, which is why it’s enjoying a healthy growth. But it takes time to fight the inertia of IT departments and users.
I notice that, once more, you don’t offer counter-arguments but try to sidetrack the debate onto a different topic.
In other words, you’re being routed, which I am enjoying very much.
I find your argument not productive or interesting. Please agree to disagree. You can both sleep satisifed knowing the other is wrong.
I am not going to provide data, since what ever data out there will be treated by you as unreliable.
Out of observation, one can reach a conjucture and that’s enough for not doing something. Netscape fell into the trap of java years ago, and that’s a hard lesson for anyone to ignore.
IT managers have reasons for their inertia, there are jobs, cars and big houses at stake. If they are not desperate, why bet the farm ?
Linux does help bottom lines, and is not particularly harder to use
Not enough to reach the critical mass. It tooks M$ 5 to 7 years for Windows to reach the critical mass with their DOS cash cow.
I’ve been running KDE on FreeBSD (5-current) for 6 months and Konqueror has not crashed _once_.
Oh, and that’s with:
– Macromedia Flash 6
– KMPlayer embedded media player, which has played every movie I’ve come across: avis, mpegs, quicktimes, Reals, etc.
I also use WinXP and Firebird provides a comparable experience there (other than the media player), but I can’t stand IE anymore.
That’s two different kinds of freedom – to me FreeBSD has fewer strings attached in spirit than GPL styled linux. The freedom I have beening talking about is on hardware selection. So don’t mix the context.
Perhaps that’s because hardware selection has nothing to do with freedom. You just use the word “freedom” in the hardware context because it’s much more dramatic. You’re quite the demagogue.
Both FreeBSD and Linux are free software – you prefer one over the other, but they are equally free in my mind. However, there is less hardware that runs on FreeBSD, and yet you indicate that you have a preference for it. Ergo, hardware compatibility isn’t that much of an issue…conveniently, it only matters when the time comes to attack Linux!
I am not going to provide data, since what ever data out there will be treated by you as unreliable.
In other words, you don’t have such data, but instead of admitting it, you will argue that I wouldn’t accept that data anyway. Well, I can you know I won’t accept this data if it comes from a serious independent source?
If anyone’s in bad faith here, it’s you: you’ve been shown wrong more than a dozen time and your response has always been to change the subject or to ignore the arguments presented to you completely.
Any more unsubstantiated claims you’d like to make at this moment?
IT managers have reasons for their inertia, there are jobs, cars and big houses at stake. If they are not desperate, why bet the farm ?
The problem, or course, is the higher TCO with Microsoft and its licensing schemes (despite what its paid-for studies claim). If switching to Linux will save their company money, then they won’t lose those jobs, cars and houses. They might even be able to work less, have better cars and nicer homes, if that’s their fancy.
Meanwhile, I’m ready to “agree to disagree” as Anonymous (IP: —.client.attbi.com) has suggested. If you can’t admit when you’re wrong (and you’ve admitted that the main reason for your posting is to provoke Linux advocates, what is otherwise known as trolling), then there’s no point in continuing this exchange.
I am not going to provide data, since what ever data out there will be treated by you as unreliable.
In other words, you don’t have such data, but instead of admitting it, you will argue that I wouldn’t accept that data anyway. Well, I can you know I won’t accept this data if it comes from a serious independent source?
If you are correct, why there is this subject:
Almost by stealth, the Linux desktop is here
The facts are
1 Gnome still doesn’t have a file selection dialog comparable to what M$ offered in Win3.1
2 KDE is still copying what win98 has since 1998
3 Linux/oss desktop represents less than 3% of market share
4 Since the tax season is coming in the US, there isn’t a package on oss desktop doing similar jobs as TurboTax
So you tell me how is a compnay going to save in terms of TCO when switching to linux will let them do nothing.
Can you admit that at least one in the above 1 to 4 statements is true ?
Can you admit that there isn’t an oss package that would do what the M$ streets and strips does?
Can you admit that Windows has more hardware selections than linux ?
Can you admit that the majority of PC users don’t use linux ?
Can you admit that major PC makers do not offer linux based PCs to home users in a significant numbers, if any?
Be as realistic as Linus
I agree with many of the things you said, except about KDE copying Windows 98. I don’t think the desktop environment provided by KDE is necessarily better than the one provided by Microsoft Windows XP, but it does have some interesting technology that Windows does not. KIOslave, in particular, is an amazing technology. You can edit a file on an FTP server, and it will upload it automatically when you click save, in an application that may not even be aware where the file is stored. This is invaluable for web design. While that is cool though, try right-clicking on an image in Konquerer. At 1024×768, the pop-up contextual menu covered much more than half of my screen. Ridiculous.
If you are correct, why there is this subject:
Almost by stealth, the Linux desktop is here
That is totally besides the point. I asked you for hard data about the statement you made, you couldn’t provide any, so now you’re trying to evade the point.
Anyway, how can I be “correct” or not when I’m asking a question?
Try to stay focussed, please.
The facts are
1 Gnome still doesn’t have a file selection dialog comparable to what M$ offered in Win3.1
I don’t use Gnome. However, I do remember Win3.1, and the current Gnome file selection dialog (though I don’t like it) is still better than Win3.1’s.
You should realize that making wild exaggerations cheapens your argument instead of strengthening it.
2 KDE is still copying what win98 has since 1998
Actually, KDE is presently more innovative and feature-full than Windows. So it’s not playing catch-up anymore, but has passed in front. To take your first example, the KDE file selection dialog is much more advanced than the stock Windows one.
3 Linux/oss desktop represents less than 3% of market share
Sure. But market share isn’t what’s important. Growth is. And Linux is growing.
4 Since the tax season is coming in the US, there isn’t a package on oss desktop doing similar jobs as TurboTax
Yeah, that’s a shame – it’s one of the reason I still keep a Win98 computer around. But what does this have to do with business TCO? Does your company do your taxes for you?
Can you admit that at least one in the above 1 to 4 statements is true ?
One, and only one of them is valid.
Can you admit that there isn’t an oss package that would do what the M$ streets and strips does?
What’s “streets and strips”?
Can you admit that Windows has more hardware selections than linux ?
Marginally, but not enough to be a real problem anymore.
Can you admit that the majority of PC users don’t use linux ?
Sure, can you admit that the sky is blue? As I’ve said before, Market Share is irrelevant – the important thing is growth. Can you admit that Linux use is growing?
Can you admit that major PC makers do not offer linux based PCs to home users in a significant numbers, if any?
Again, this has nothing to do with Linux’s capabilities or usability. Rather, it has to do with economics, marketing and customer habits.
What are you trying to say, exactly? You’re changing your tune so often, trying to be some kind of “moving target” while under the strange notion that this is one successfully conducts a debate, that you’re no longer making any sense.
And you still haven’t provided that data.
Be as realistic as Linus
Why don’t you read the Linus interview first? You obviously haven’t otherwise you wouldn’t be using this as an argument.
For the last time: Linus isn’t saying that Linux isn’t ready for the desktop. He’s saying that it’ll take 5 to 10 years before it is commonly found on home desktops. If you can’t understand the difference, then there’s nothing I can do for you.
http://www.google.com/search?&q=microsoft%20streets%20and~*…
Yeah, that kind of “speciality” home software won’t flourish commercially for Linux until it’s become more of a household word, and that will only happen after it has become more common on the business Desktop.
That doesn’t mean that no specialty software exists for Linux as of now, just that there’s no commercial software of that kind, yet.
As for Streets and Strips, my guess is that it will probably work with Wine sooner or later.
You can edit a file on an FTP server, and it will upload it automatically when you click save, in an application that may not even be aware where the file is stored. This is invaluable for web design. While that is cool though, try right-clicking on an image in Konquerer. At 1024×768, the pop-up contextual menu covered much more than half of my screen. Ridiculous.
This remote editing/saving thing has been available on windows since last century.
The ridiculous context menu example is the sort of things that scare off non-geek computer users. oss desktops obviously offer some interesting features, on the other hand there are just too many rough edges need to be smoothed out.
Is Linus an independent source away from M$ ?
Is 5 to 10 years data ? If that is only a conclusion, would you assume it is based on independent data ?
A hardware is working under linux dosen’t means it is supported in terms of a non-geek computer users. If such a user asks you would the hardware be supported by its manufacture, how would you give an answer ? Something like, it will work, but if there are problem the manufacture would not help you out, and you have the RTFM ?
If again such a user asks could she/he run turbotax or m$ streets and trips or M$ Encarta on a linux pc, would you suggest that it will probably run sooner or later but not now ? If that’s the case does the user have a valid reason to ask you why then you try to sell me such a computer now ?
Would you dare to answer that it is not a linux problem ?
Is that a problem of the user ? or more likely is that the problem of a lin-zealot ?
This remote editing/saving thing has been available on windows since last century.
It is?
I have a Win2k installation around, could you give me some instructions how to open a file over FTP in, wordpad (that’s Microsoft’s advanced editor IIRC)
The ridiculous context menu example is the sort of things that scare off non-geek computer users.
The KDE context menu has been greatly reduced in KDE 3.2beta2. So there.
Is Linus an independent source away from M$ ?
Hardly. He’s an individual, who has opinions, and that’s fine. And what he said had nothing to do with your statement, which was (I quote): “Windows has a higher percentage of sucessful rate for people have little or no experience at tweaking cmputers.”
There is nothing in Linus’ interview that even remotely pertains to this statement. In fact, I’m not even sure what that statement means. It is really badly written.
how would you give an answer ? Something like, it will work, but if there are problem the manufacture would not help you out, and you have the RTFM ?
I have never told a newbie to RTFM, and you know what? I’ve never been told to RTFM when I was a newbie. I’ve had plenty of kind, generous help, though.
Are you going to try to change the subject yet again, this time on Linux users’ alleged bad manners?
M$ Encarta
This runs with Crossover Office.
If a user needs software which is not yet available under Linux, then obviously switching over completely may not be desirable – and I have never claimed otherwise. In fact, that was never the point.
There are, however, many ways to run Windows software on a Linux system, such as Win4Lin and VMWare. In fact, it’s probably better to run Turbotax in a VMWare session in the first place, since it writes stuff to your MBR, which is totally irresponsible. I know that’s what I’ll be doing this year.
BTW, repeating “lin-zealot” over and over like a broken record will not make it into a real word. Since you seem to have trouble writing grammatically correct sentences, may I suggest that you begin by using real words instead of make-believe ones?
Oh, and don’t forget that data – you know, the one you have miserably failed to provide?
Kevin
Don’t bother challenging the Pacbell troll with facts, he’ll just ignore you or try to change the subject.
how would you give an answer ? Something like, it will work, but if there are problem the manufacture would not help you out, and you have the RTFM ?
I have never told a newbie to RTFM, and you know what? I’ve never been told to RTFM when I was a newbie. I’ve had plenty of kind, generous help, though.
Yes, and in 99% of cases, if you give a good description of the problem you’re experiecing, 99% of the time you will receive a helpful respose.
People who are told to RTFM are those who enter a chat room and start demanding immediate help or worse, a person goes to the effort of finding information and is simply ignored.
It is like here, a person is replied to but of course, the reply is completely ignored and the same claim is repeated again in the hope that it will come true.
I have never told a newbie to RTFM, and you know what? I’ve never been told to RTFM when I was a newbie. I’ve had plenty of kind, generous help, though.
Yes, and in 99% of cases, if you give a good description of the problem you’re experiecing, 99% of the time you will receive a helpful respose.
You could help 100 other newbie geeks, but try 10,000 or 50,000 consumers – you are going to either tell them to RTFM or need a company with a toll free numbers and charge something to pay the bill.
VMWare retails for something like $299 and then you need a valid Windows license. After all these troubles the performance will be around 70% to 80% of the real thing.
To the trolls that state trolling is good for OSNEWS – i totally disagree – it makes OSNEWS look like a badly behaved childrens’ playground that disseminates a lot of mis-information.
All this does is confuse people new to computing or only know one OS with a load of non-facts about all OSes.
This does a total disservice to this site.
I agree. If they could all just admit that despite Linux being free, no one wants to use it because it’s so terrible, that OSNEWS would be a much better place for civil discussion.
My Network Place | Add a network place.
This thing was first appeared on windows around win95 times with Norton Utilities and some other third party apps.
Windows later add a similar thing called web folders.
KDE is just copying a copy of the original idea – shell integration.
> You could help 100 other newbie geeks, but try 10,000 or
> 50,000 consumers – you are going to either tell them to RTFM
> or need a company with a toll free numbers and charge
> something to pay the bill.
Not exactly, because the OSS community is a network, it does not take 1 person to serve 50,000 consumers at once. The network effect of spreading information will not be as difficulty as it seems. But I agree with many posters above, you are changing subjects once again.
> VMWare retails for something like $299 and then you need a
> valid Windows license. After all these troubles the
> performance will be around 70% to 80% of the real thing.
How do you measure of the performance of TurboTax running at “70% to 80% of the real thing”? Are you creating a benchmark for running TurboTax? Huh….
One of my dirty little secrets is that I have never successfully installed Linux on anything
This is the confession of the author of the article. Even now, he could just boot to a linux desktop with Knoppix live CD – that is not an installation.
For Windows, in most cases, there is no need for a new user to do an installation. It is already installed at the factory. Even though there are few places today that offers pc systems with pre-installed linux, it is not a cover all solution.
What if a user got a promotional CD with the like of AOL, Turbo tax etc ? On a windows system, she/he sticks the cd into the pc and that’s it. With a linux system, how would she/he suppose to realize that she/he needs something like win4lin, vmware to begin with ? Will AOL, Intuit tell this new user what will be involved ?
Out of lin-zealots’ mouths, things are always possible, either with win4lin/vmware or with KDE 3.2 beta or sooner or later. Possibility would not help when a user needs to file a tax return on a computer 30 min before the deadline.
You could help 100 other newbie geeks, but try 10,000 or 50,000 consumers – you are going to either tell them to RTFM or need a company with a toll free numbers and charge something to pay the bill.
You mean, like what you don’t get when you buy Windows? Mwahahaha!
A lot of Linux companies offer paid-for phone support. What’s your point? Oh, sorry, I forgot: you don’t have a point: you’re just trolling.
VMWare retails for something like $299 and then you need a valid Windows license. After all these troubles the performance will be around 70% to 80% of the real thing.
Then use Win4Lin. It’s much cheaper and does the job for software such as Turbotax and the like. Of course, VMWare is much more versatile (I use it to test new OSes) but it may be overkill for home users. Win4Lin isn’t, which is why of course you selectively forgot about it in your response.
KDE is just copying a copy of the original idea – shell integration.
Really? In Windows, can I remotely connect to another machine with my File Browser, and navigate freely through file folders for which I have permissions on that machine, without having to set up anything at all? All of this with drag’n’drop goodness, file thumbnails and SSH encryption?
With konqueror (and the fish: protocol) I can.
http://ranger.dnsalias.com/mandrake/screenshots/mandrake9rc2_kio_fi…
Konqueror is light-years ahead of Windows/Internet Explorer. Deal with it.
The core is the same – linux is not ready for non-geek computer users
How do you measure of the performance of TurboTax running at “70% to 80% of the real thing”?
That’s VMWare’s estimation on its virutal machine’s performance level.
Not exactly, because the OSS community is a network
Is there a toll free number ? Is there a regular telephone number ? What do you lin-zealots have beyond a big mouth ?
With a linux system, how would she/he suppose to realize that she/he needs something like win4lin, vmware to begin with ?
If she runs Linux then she will already be aware that Windows software won’t run.
What if she has a Mac? What if she still has Windows 98 and it is no longer supported by the promotional CD?
Linux is ready for the desktop, but ultimately it depends on your needs and preferences.
Hey, I can’t get Final Cut Pro for Windows, so I guess Windows isn’t for everyone as well, eh?
That’s VMWare’s estimation on its virutal machine’s performance level.
You completely missed the point. The idea is that 70 to 80% performance for Turbotax is irrelevant. It’s not a 3D game, so the difference is negligible. 70% of very fast is still very fast.
linux is not ready for non-geek computer users
Really? My girlfriend is as non-geek as you can get. She’s like an anti-geek. She knows very little about computers – and yet she uses Linux at home, now more than she does Windows (her Windows PC has a noisy fan, so she usually works on my Linux box). She had no trouble adjusting at all.
There are similar testimonies about computer neophytes using Linux all the time, on this web site as well as others. The truth is that Linux is as useable as Windows for the great majority of users, period. You know this, and that’s why you’re so aggressively saying the opposite. But all your FUD-spreading won’t change the fact that my gf uses kmail and konqueror and XMMS and Kmplayer and MS Office with Crossover, and that she likes it better than Windows (she thinks it’s prettier, for starters).
Meanwhile, you still haven’t provided that data. Nor have you told me how I can swith my Windows installation from English to French without buying another copy of the OS and reinstalling it.
Then again, as you’ve admitted yourself, you’re just trolling.
without having to set up anything at all?
Without even type in the hostname, user name and password ?
Perhaps GNOME or KDE is more powerful in some ways, especially with their abililties to be transformed with modules and look and feel. The average user, the one LINUX needs to win over to become a desktop champ, does not give a rat’s butt about that. They just want to work.
Windows and OSX are better in this way. First off, the average user may run into trouble. Having an interface that is the same from computer to computer is important to helping them. They can get a book, or I can call them on the phone, and they can follow easy commands to get what they want done. For example, to get to the Control Panel it is in the same place on every WindowsXP install. With the way each distro puts different items on their menus and different basic software, this is a lost cause. Closed source has proven to be a hundred times more successful in this respect.
Additionally, Windows and Mac ARE easier to use. I have used a Linux distro before and found it to be a nightmare akin to going back to MS-DOS. I had IRQ problems. There are too many ways to install software, most difficult to understand (I remember using the Red Hat intaller and seeing tons of dependencies I needed to track doen and install). I love Windows. DOuble click the setup file, tell it where to put it and run it. Same with Mac. And don’t get me started on installing and not hving the shortcut appear on the KDE menus! Heck, WindowsXP tells me something new has been put on the Start Up menu. Easy.
And as for Adobe Photoshop not being available for Linux: If more people used Linux they would make it. Until Linux can make a UI that is the same across all platforms you will not attain that.
she doesn’t have the option to use a windows pc without a noisy fan ? where is the freedom of choice, where is her option to use a computer without adjusting to anything at all ?
“without having to set up anything at all?”
Without even type in the hostname, user name and password?
That’s not “setting up”! It’s just typing in the url as such “fish://[email protected]” – the password you type into the dialog box that pops up. Trying to argue that this is “setting up” is like saying that writing an URL in Internet Explorer is setting it up!
I’ve never seen such bad faith. Keep it up, you’re losing credibility with each new message you type.
In any case, if you put the fish URL into your bookmarks, then all you’ll have to do next time you connect is to type in the password.
So, I guess you agree that you can’t do that in Windows. Point goes to KDE, then.
she doesn’t have the option to use a windows pc without a noisy fan ? where is the freedom of choice, where is her option to use a computer without adjusting to anything at all ?
What are you trying to say? You’re not making any sense. Perhaps you should actually formulate ideas in your head before you post…
Her PC (which is a Windows PC) has a noisy fan, so she doesn’t use turn it on if she doesn’t need to. My PC (which is a Linux PC) is always on, so if I’m not using it then she uses it instead. I’ve already set up her “My Documents” folder on her PC to point to her Documents folder on my Linux machine (shared with Samba), so she always has access to her documents.
Recently she told me that she liked working on my PC better, not because of the noisy fan on her machine, but because she liked the interface better. I’m going to solve the problem by buying a new PC and giving her mine, so that she’ll be able to work on it all the time.
So there you have it: a total non-geek preferring Linux over Windows.
Your argument is based on a faulty premises, that Windows program share a consistent UI. They don’t. In fact, non-MS Windows programs are notorious for having all kinds of UI inconsistencies.
On the other hand, Mac OS does have a consistent UI throughout. And yet it has a market share similar to Linux, despite having been around longer. The logical conclusion one can make is that UI consistency has nothing to do with an OS’s popularity.
Also, regarding software installation on Linux systems, you should try out one of the more recent distros – it’s actually become easier than on Windows, and they do put icons in the KDE menu. There is also autopackage.org who has made an installer similar to that found in Windows. It’s not widely used yet, but it works quite well.
Linux has improved a great deal since you last used it.
so you tweaked your linux box and she uses it.
That’s not the same as she would setup a linux box.
so you tweaked your linux box and she uses it.
That’s not the same as she would setup a linux box.
Irrelevant. A non-geek wouldn’t set up a Windows box either. I know, I keep getting asked by family, friends and friends of friends to help them reinstall Windows or upgrade it – the curse of the “Family and Friend’s Tech Support.” These days I usually say no. Then they offer me beer. Then I ask what kind.
The point is that Windows users ask a geek friend to install and configure Windows for them, so there’s nothing wrong with a geek installing and configuring Linux for a non-geek.
Installation of most major Linux distros is now easier and faster (way faster, in fact) than a typical Windows install. Less reboots, and network cards work out-of-the-box, which isn’t always the case with Microsoft.
The GUI and CUI (common user interface) rules for Windows are used by most software developers. The fact is, most Linux programs do not. Where is the handbook for the common user interface for Linux? Well, there is one for Windows and one for Mac, but in the Linux world each programmer makes their own judgements and you may have very different interfaces on programs.
On Windows the main problem I have is ports from other systems not following the CUI: ProTools for WindowsXP, GIMP, etc, they don’t follow any of the CUI guidelines. Also, cheap freeware and shareware may not, but the big closed source software vendors respect the GUI/CUI.
And as for the installer from autopackage.org, hey, that is a big improvement. It is still not the standard and users will still be stuggling with the other, more esoteric installers.
I ask you, if UI has nothing to do with popularity why is it so important to MS and Apple, and why hasn’t Linux won the desktop war? For general users it is very important, for advanced users it is not, this is why such things are not important in the server market where command lines are used everyday.
My past experience with Linux left enough of a bad taste in my mouth to never go back. We use both Windows and MacOS in house. The work like a charm.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but a lot of major Windows apps do not use the same widget sets and/or do not follow the same UI rules. I mean, look a RealOne Player or WMP! What about Maya and Photoshop, do they use the same UI style as Office? What about Office 97 vs. Office 2000 vs. Office XP? Lotus Notes, AlienBrain, Quicken…the list goes on and on!
Now, compare this with KDE applications using the QT3 toolkit, and you’ll see that these applications are a model of consistency.
Autopackage.org is neat, but the fact is that modern package managers such as RedCarpet, Rpmdrake, Click’n’Run and Xandros Networks make software installation a breeze, and easier than under Windows. Click, click, click, it’s installed (and no more dependency issues).
I ask you, if UI has nothing to do with popularity why is it so important to MS and Apple, and why hasn’t Linux won the desktop war?
As I have said before, Apple has the most consistent (and arguably, one of the nicest-looking) UIs, and still it has lost the desktop war – its market share is comparable to that of Linux.
And if you think eyecandy isn’t important to Linux users, perhaps you should have another look at the modern distros – I honestly think that my own setup looks nicer than Windows.
For general users it is very important, for advanced users it is not, this is why such things are not important in the server market where command lines are used everyday.
I disagree. I consider myself an intermediate to advance user, and I want my eye candy!
(Warning: 1600×1200 desktop. There are lo-res versions if you are in 1024×768, since I don’t think IE does in-browser image resizing like Konqueror does…)
http://archie.homelinux.net:8080/images/user/kde_shot1.jpg
http://archie.homelinux.net:8080/images/user/kde_shot1_lores.jpg
http://archie.homelinux.net:8080/images/user/kde_shot2.jpg
http://archie.homelinux.net:8080/images/user/kde_shot2_lores.jpg
http://archie.homelinux.net:8080/images/user/kde_shot3.jpg
http://archie.homelinux.net:8080/images/user/kde_shot3_lores.jpg
http://archie.homelinux.net:8080/images/user/kde_shot4.jpg
Tell me that this doesn’t look good!
Sorry that your past experiences with Linux didn’t work out, but you have to admit it has made enormous strides in the past few years…
Meanwhile, I use both Windows and Linux at home. I wouldn’t mind adding an OS X machine to the mix (after all, it’s *nix). I’m a Linux enthusiast, but I can appreciate other OSes as well…I have nothing against Windows (it’s Microsoft I have a bone to pick with…)
We ust need to agree to disagree. Its what works for you. I work video post production mainly on Windows (with a couple of programs running on Cygwin) and for audio its Mac all the way.
BTW: I don’t use IE. It is terible… especially vulerability wise. I’m use Mozilla!
It’s true that, right now, Linux isn’t a good Video editing solution. Cinelerra is quite powerful, but unstable and it’s interface is fugly. In this area (as well as in Sound editing) Mac rules. However, there is a lot of interest in this area and lost of development going on for Linux. I imagine that one will be able to have a powerful (and cheap) Linux Video Editing suite in a year or two.
Let’s agree to disagree, then. I think this thread is pretty much dead anyway…