Home > Linux > Some Good Reasons Not to Use Linux Some Good Reasons Not to Use Linux Eugenia Loli 2002-02-01 Linux 80 Comments “Some people can use Linux, and some can’t. No matter how many Linux zealots talk nasty about Windows or Mac users or say that Linux is wonderful, not everyone can do their work in Linux.” A thoughtful editorial at NewsForge. About The Author Eugenia Loli Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker. Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli 80 Comments 2002-02-01 4:34 pm That editorial was clearly not appreciated among the penguins… I really don’t want to be associated with those people so in the future I think I will keep quiet about me liking Linux. In fact, I’m not sure I do that anymore. “…i am a huge linux fan and even have a dislike for people who use other OS’s…” Fucks like that make me feel sick 2002-02-01 4:59 pm “…i am a huge linux fan and even have a dislike for people who use other OS’s…” —- Ahh yes, the tell-tale sign it’s religous 🙂 Not uncommon. 2002-02-01 5:00 pm Unless the software you use in windows is TOTALLY specific to the job you do (for example accounting software), i dont see why anyone cant use linux. What does the average person do? -Write email -surf the web -chat with their “buddies” -use a word processor All of which linux can do quite well while being faster, smaller and more stable than windows. If you think a linux distro takes more room than a windows install, you have probably been living with RedHat or the likes. A Debian install is like 200megs, and that includes all of the above, whereas with windows it may be small to start, but it grows exponentially with applications shitting their DLLs all over. 2002-02-01 5:11 pm Raptor-32 Unless the software you use in windows is TOTALLY specific to the job you do (for example accounting software), i dont see why anyone cant use linux. What does the average person do? -Write email So there are Microsoft Exchange and Lotus Notes clients for Linux? Do they let me accept meeting requests with a click of a button and automatically add them to my schedule? Can I also view public discussion lists on my Exchange servers? -surf the web Oh good, so now I can run all those ActiveX controls I find on my internal net for doing things like changing HR information, or signing my review, or adding folks to a discussion list in a Linux browser. -chat with their “buddies” Can they chat with their MSN Messenger buddies? Are they automatically signed in to their passport so that they can have personalized content delivered to them without having to sign in to every site they go to? -use a word processor Absolutely, but is it going to produce compatible documents for all their friends to read in their Microsoft Word for Windows or Word for Macintosh products? What if the Windows folks create a document with an embedded Office control that charts or graphs, or contains a survey? Can they read that one too? I think you’ve not fully considered the tasks laypeople undertake on a daily basis. 2002-02-01 5:41 pm Unless the software you use in windows is TOTALLY specific to the job you do (for example accounting software), i dont see why anyone cant use linux. Problem #1 – Most penguins just can’t see. They can’t see why anyone would want to actually use his computer instead of just tinker with it constantly. They can’t see why everyone doesn’t program in C (or even program at all). They can’t see why others OS users don’t realize that the penguins’ sacred oss apps (at version 0.9 or less perpetually) are “morally superior” to the evil closed-source software they use now; they can’t see why Win users don’t accept that using “morally superior” software makes penguins morally superior to people who don’t. They can’t see why Windows users doen’t accept their status as a lower and less intelligent life form. Don’t believe it? Spend some time in the linux newsgroups! Dare to ask a simple question, or even question the superiority of Linux. What does the average person do? -Write email And you better not do it with any HTML formatting to a penguin! Why would anyone want to do that anyway?? -surf the web Yes, with unreadable fonts (Konqueror anyone?) -chat with their “buddies” With Netscape 6.2, this is OK. Got AOL IMs. -use a word processor With limited font support (unless you are geeky enough to figure out how to make them install) and limited features compared to Windows offerings, unless you are a professional typesetter and are paid to learn and use TeX. All of which linux can do quite well while being faster, smaller and more stable than windows. Oh, please. This is pure crap. Compare the uptime of Win2k to KDE or GNOME and get back to me, after you restart X a few times. Compare screen redraw speed while you’re at it. (Penguins always want to compare the uptime of Windows to the uptime of the Linux kernel, like that means anything to a desktop user.) Smaller? You have a funny idea of smaller. If you think a linux distro takes more room than a windows install, you have probably been living with RedHat or the likes. And RH is probably the most popular distro, right? Yes, my RH Linux install takes up much more room than Win2k. A Debian install is like 200megs, What?? I have never installed Debian, but RH can be well over 1GB even if you are very selective. 200M might just over the bare essentials of the OS. and that includes all of the above, whereas with windows it may be small to start, but it grows exponentially with applications shitting their DLLs all over. So Linux apps don’t take any space? A programming marvel! Add other issues like trying to get Linux to recognize your CD-RW, mounting (what a pain in the neck – still can’t get more than read only for most of my partitions), lack of graphics apps (don’t tell me about GIMP – I need a capable vector drawing app), and I’m sure others could add to the list. 2002-02-01 5:43 pm I agreed with the writer although I feel the pain in my heart. Unluckily, I am not a programmer yet, if I am for sure I will write software that have the basis and useful as Window$ are. Linux community should admit that although tons of software are available fo Linux, the suitable software for office works especially with printing support is still very limited. For me I am hoping that all those brilliant Linux developer will succeed to develop better software that can be an alternative to Window$. We have seen how fast linux have made since last few years (I’ve start using Linux about 5 years ago where the was very limited application compared to today) 2002-02-01 5:49 pm This will all be moot when WINE works. That said, the project has a long way to go before it will be considered widely usable. For instance, my dad wont switch to Linux until he can use it to run his software for electronic postage, voice recognition, VoIP, and MS Office (with embedded VBScript and custom templates, etc), and finally, full support and software integration for his HP laser printer-fax-scanner. All of this software only exists in commercial quality for Windows at this time, and WINE is currently hopeless with most of the mentioned software. This is the reality. 2002-02-01 6:11 pm I’m not precisely into MS-Win advocacy, but I guess that everytime I hear people talking about Linux being faster and more stable than MS-Windows they are thinking of the Linux command line Vs the MS-Windows GUI. The Linux GUI, say KDE or GNOME, is actually pretty slow and unstable, specially with that monstruous memory sucker called GNOME (Nautilus has to be alpha), Netscape/Mozilla score high too on unstability. Raptor, I’m surprised to read that from you, are you the same person? The other day you wrote: “Here is the problem with X. Its OLD, X11R6 specs are like 10years old or something. That shouldnt be a problem though. The main problem is that it was made for high end servers to dish out graphical shell accounts via terminals, it was not made for desktop PCs where the Xserver is on the same box as the Xclients. Why is that? Well like i said, it works with a messaging system, where the client sends a message saying “draw me a square of this size in my window please”… 3D acceleration on a network NOT a good idea. Like i showed above, the messaging system gets tiresome real fast. How can it all be made faster? Ditch the messaging system (im pretty sure the technical term isnt message but queue or something or rather). Use the video driver directly, which is what DRI is for, but still has X there to slow it the hell down where possible… shem put it best: “give me a uniform GUI”. X does not provide this, yet OSX, Windows, NeXTStep/OpenStep, Nanosistemas, and almost every other GUI i can think of do. What made X neat and revolutionary is now become a huge problem. Application developers now have to decide: GTK+? Qt? or use a custom widget set? And its come to a point where its not only the look of the program that its depending on, its how its coded. The result: An application who’s future relies on the success of another project. ” The handling of fonts in Linux is a complete disaster, even after an XFree86 Font Deuglification Mini HowTo. Linux needs more time to forget Xfree for good, what J. Hubbard recently called the “DOS of window systems”. I’m waiting for the release of Xandros Linux to see if there are any advances on that matter (even with X on). And now Offtopic, about UUU, Raptor-32, I was browsing through http://uuu.sourceforge.net“>the and reading your <a ref=”http://uuu.sourceforge.net/docs/video_specs.txt“>Uuu Video Driver Specifications and I still wonder how far you want to take it. Do you really want to inplement a GUI for it? The first time I came across that project I thought it was more done for researching than aiming for a usable os. I know some of the former V2OS developers are in http://uuu.sourceforge.net“>UUU MenuetOS” rel=”nofollow”>http://www.menuetos.org”>MenuetOS project or the <a href=”http://www2.wku.edu/~barceed“>Nanosistemas one that you cited. I hope I read about UUU at osnews soon. Thx. 2002-02-01 6:37 pm TaCo, think twice before you post. But maybe you are not used to think, as you use Windows everyday 😉 Hey, I do use Wins too 🙂 Well, your arguments are really lame and out off topic. Who cares of Lotus Notes? What percent or promile of average joe users use Lotus Notes clients for e.g.? Our company has 2K of LN licenses, so I know what is LN about. And sometimes, it is even pretty lame system … As for ActiveX, you are probably kidding, right? Use ActiveX inside your company – on Intranet. Who would use ActiveX in conjunction with Internet at all? ActiveX is proprietary technology. You are probably hot candite for .Net, aren’t you? 🙂 Messenger – who said MSN is a king? Is the spec open? If so, Jabber will imo allow to bridge it … WordProcessor and using embedded controls. If you mean any kind of ActiveX – jump the wall, it helps sometimes. Proprietary once again … Sorry for such reactions, but you commented from strictly company/business point of view, while original post was really meant “average joe user’s linux usage”. Everyone seems to understand it, why don’t you? Cheers, -pekr- 2002-02-01 6:52 pm Maybe i should explain myself here, X is a bitch for desktops, but its currently the only “GUI” (its not a GUI, its a windowing system) for Linux that is usable really. I use it because i dont have options and i like a graphical browser (w3m and links are nice when shit does down with X and you need to fix stuff but for real browsing i use mozilla), and because i DO use the networking features of X via XDM with my old P120. My friend is a DIE-HARD windows2k user, he uses it as a desktop machine, his longest uptime: 20days, and that was hard for him. My uptime is currently 32days, and i do run X, but no i dont run KDE or GNOME as their slowness repulses me. Anyone who considers KDE and GNOME to be the GUIs of linux should _really_ get out more, and look around. There are plenty of faster and much more stable window managers. I switch between WindowMaker and blackbox depending on my mood, i can switch without being scared of anything crashing, and what do you know, they can run ALL of the apps that KDE or GNOME do. They just call them “GNOME apps” because they use GTK+ which is what GNOME uses, and the same is true (but for Qt) for KDE. HTML mail should be burned, ALL of it, its horrible! And there are graphical mail clients for X ya know. Crappy word processors? pfft. StarOffice was the nicest word processor i’ve ever used, and it was on my linux box (must find DEC Alpha port of it…). Online messaging clients, Everybuddy is a nice application, as are many other hybrid all-in-one clients. If you cant use The GIMP you suck, my sister can and does use it, and churns out some pretty neat images considering she’s like 13 (added note: she uses it via the remote X session). The GIMP isnt as polished as Photoshop and others, but you cant expect small volunteer-based projects to move as fast as ones with corporate support and alotta cash. The goal of Uuu is to have an OE that can be a base for any type of custom OS that someone would want. We’ve realized that good video drivers would be needed if ever someone wanted to make a GUI for it. There was an effort at porting Nanosistemas to Uuu but it was put on hold for now, because porting realmode 16bit code to Protected Mode (all 25000 lines of it) would be extremely hard. As far as collaboration with other Assembly projects, if we do have any, im not aware of it. eheh. We’ve set ourselves a goal of being as fully-featured as MenuetOS by May 2002, which would include a GUI, we’ve begun porting (and i expect to be bashed here) Nano-X (http://www.microwindows.org), its X-like but uses very little memory. Uuu was once on OSNews, i think it was for our 0.3 release of FRuSTRaTiON (the development distro), we are currently working on 0.3.2 which might become 0.4 depending on how much work is done on it. http://uuu.sf.net for those that want to read more. 2002-02-01 7:01 pm As for ActiveX, you are probably kidding, right? Use ActiveX inside your company – on Intranet. Who would use ActiveX in conjunction with Internet at all? ActiveX is proprietary technology. I never said it wansn’t proprietary . All I said is that people rely on it to do things. And yes, I definitely use ActiveX on the Internet. I use ActiveX plugins to watch QuickTime movies on Apple’s site, as well as Flash presentations. I use ActiveX stock tickers, and 3D IPIX previews of home sites (since I’m looking . I DEFINITELY use ActiveX as a home user, and I am very suprised to hear that you don’t, if you use Windows. ActiveX is entirely COM based, which is a standard (if not open) programming model. The fact that COM is owned by a corporation, and not by an independent standards comittee may have hurt it’s proliferation across platforms competitive to Windows; COM has a very strong following in the Windows community though, and chances are that *YOU* use ActiveX technology every day, and don’t even know it. You can read more about what http://www.microsoft.com/com/about.asp“>COM ActiveX” rel=”nofollow”>http://www.microsoft.com/com/tech/activex.asp”>ActiveX are all about on MSDN. 2002-02-01 7:10 pm anybody tried Evolution, Gnumeric, Gimp, Mozilla and [put a IM all in one client here]? I use enlightenment .16.5 as windowmanager and probably I’ll move to E17 as soon it goes beta. I use Mozilla as webbrowser and e-mail client. I use sometimes Gnumeric and the only thing that lacks something is Guppi (graphics). Star office/Open office is quite good for my purpose and isn’t so painful for image handling. Mplayer let me play any sort of video and Xmms let me heard any audio format. Xfree4.1.0 is quite good for me, maybe because I compiled it on my pc and I did the same for all the software present in my system but Mozilla. BTW in these days I’m doing a simple test I ask a friend of me to try linux he got a mandrake distro from the uni. that is the 3rd day, he can do about everything he was doing on win32. (he actually needs just to find a good UOL client now) 2002-02-01 7:12 pm Anybody notice the IP for Mystic TaCo? microsoft.com????????? Yeah Mystic TacCo tell us how wonderfull all that microsoft stuff is. Every time there is an anti-linux story the trolls pile on. Why do people feel the need to bash the work of others. If you don’t like Linux then don’t use it. Are you guys really this worried about Linux? God its just like when os2 was constantly bashed online just before win95 can out. 2002-02-01 7:15 pm Mystic TaCo (IP: —.microsoft.com) wrote on 2002-02-01 19:01:13 RE: Pekr Shouldnt you be out rigging votes for your evil empire’s benefit? 2002-02-01 7:28 pm That is something zealots will never understand. Not hidding the IP (something so easy to do) honours Mystic TaCo with or without The Beast. 2002-02-01 7:30 pm Anybody notice the IP for Mystic TaCo? microsoft.com????????? Of course we have. Zac is a regular reader on OSNews for quite sometime, we even had an interview with him some months ago, and I also consider him a good online friend of mine (chatting) and I have lots of respect for him. Does that make me a troll too? Be careful how you answer that btw. 2002-02-01 7:30 pm The only trolls I see here are the two above this post. And why does this have to be a anti-linux story? The author happens to be a long time linux-only user. Why can’t Linux users take criticism? 2002-02-01 7:34 pm I’m posting too slow… Of course Marques and Eugenia are not trolls. I meant someone and Raptor-32 Hope I’m not banned 🙂 2002-02-01 7:34 pm X isn’t the big problem. I can run a perfectly acceptable desktop with X on my old p200. Don’t give me all that BS about X being slow — sure, there are areas which could use some work but they’re not what holding Linux/*BSD back. I can tell you right now what’s holding back Linux: There is a serious lack of standards in the Linux world. You guys lack the whole idea of “compromise”. Whenever there’s a disagreement you run away and start splinter groups which adds one more ‘choice’ to confuse the hell out of joe sixpack. Average people don’t want to make choices about which Window Manager to use, or which Desktop Enviroment is best, they want to KNOW they are already running what is best. Don’t even get me started on code bloat. Win95 can be run on my p200 and be useable. KDE or GNOME? I think not. Not unless I become mildly retarded and in turn become as slow and stupid as both of them. Inconsistancy – Everything in Linux is so damn inconsistant, why? Because there are no standards. Nobody wants to agree on anything. Inconsistancy leads to confusion. There is a serious lack of organisation in the Linux world. No REAL companies want to develop software for an OS with less organisation than a tree full of monkeys in season. Reality bites. cheers. 2002-02-01 7:37 pm hehe, I guess you mean, the “two stories above the previous post”. You published your comment just 4 seconds after I did, so you did not saw mine. >The author happens to be a long time linux-only user. The author is the Editor in Chief of Linux.com and NewsForge.com. These people who are replying here to “support” Linux did not EVEN READ the bloody story! >Why can’t Linux users take criticism? Spoiled children? 2002-02-01 7:46 pm <eks> a troll is somebody saying stuff only to make others angry <eks> he doesn’t have anything useful/intelligent to say <eks> he just wants to make the place go crazy I hardly see how i fall into that category. The lack of standards when talking about linux as a desktop OS is CAUSED by X being the way it is. I dont think you can compared Win95 to linux nowdays. I ran Win95 until the point where i saw i couldnt run it anymore because apps were becoming more and more win98+, more notably internet-related applications. Upgrading to Win98 would have killed the the machine speedwise and ramwise, not to mention the uglyness of Win98. On the same computer i ran the latest and greatest linux software, the only reason i bought a new machine was because the CPU just wasnt fast enough to watch ASF files in either OS (ya thats right, you can play ASFs in linux). 2002-02-01 7:50 pm *** Snort, rrrnghhhtbh, Growl, pthatptbmb, and other various Troll noises… *** RE: Raptor-32 and someone You have no idea who I am, what my background is, what I do, or even what my OS of preference is. I *LIKE* the company I work for. Mostly because they treat me very well. However, I do not agree with everything that is done here, nor do I have sway over all of it. You are zealots of the worst kind, criticizing me as a person solely based on the ip from which my computer posts. For all *YOU* know, I work for SUN, and I’m just posting from an Internet terminal in the conference center. Feel free to post another response when you feel you can do so without making rash, unfounded personal judgements. I’m glad to hear any positive feedback or fact based retort, but I don’t have any interest in your hormone driven mindless cliche knee-jerk retort to my comments. 2002-02-01 7:58 pm He was just making fun, it’s always a joy reading Raptor’s very well fundamented posts, no trolls at all. Again: he was just making fun. Trolls don’t code in assembly as Raptor does, check out the <a href=”http://uuu.sf.net“>UUU project. Awesome. 2002-02-01 7:58 pm [i]The GIMP isnt as polished as Photoshop and others, but you cant expect small volunteer-based projects to move as fast as ones with corporate support and alotta cash. [i] I agree, and I wish people would stop trying to compare Linux apps to Windows ones, because on few occasions, is there a quality substitute for what you are using in Windows. There is no Linux equivalent or anything in the same league to programs such as After Effects, PS, 3D Studio Max, Fireworks, Sound forge, Vegas, etc, etc. Even freeware Windows programs, such as Image Forge, Virtual Dub, and Anim8r, smoke all the crapware OSS Linux software. And perhaps the most pathetic thing of all, is the Linux GUI environments. Falling into either the ancient or overly bloated categories. Put LiteStep and Window blinds together on a Windows box, and you will have more functionality and eye candy for the desktop then anything that has ever been done on any *nix system. I was once a believer in the Linux on the desktop hype, but once I tried to move my day to day work over to it, the only program that could replace one of my commonly used Windows apps was XMMS and of course Mozilla, sad really. There is too many of these Linux ‘Zealots’ opening their mouth about comparative or alterative apps, but the thing is, they don’t even seem to use the apps their preaching to use (GIMP for example) on a regular basis enough to realize that comparatively to what you can find on Windows, the Linux alternatives really suck. 2002-02-01 8:00 pm And as you can see by my lack of a closing italic tag, that I use Dreamweaver often, and again, nothing comparative on Linux. ;/ 2002-02-01 8:02 pm I ask people why they feel the need to bash Linux and I’m the troll? Wooo you people are a bit off. Yes I said bashing, thats not the same as being critical. Linux users can take people being critical Linux. Saying X sucks, why can’t they fix the fonts whine whine whine. Is bashing, its not be constructive. Don’t be suprised if Linux people take the critical comments personal. Its alot of work to try and create a free OS just to be constanlty bombarded by the trolls. The reasons fonts suck under x is because fonts are almost never free. One of the tenents of Linux is to be to free to distribute. Only those fonts that are free can be included. Now insert almost any current desktop technology for fonts and you see the problem. I don’t see microsoft porting Direct 3d so Linux users can play the current games. Add to that the hardware companys refuse most of the time to publish their specs so drivers can be written. Thus your wiz bang whatever does not work under Linux, or if it does it takes a 45 page howto based on 3 months of reverse engineering work. There is zero reason that hardware companys can’t release enough of the specs for good drivers to be written. They don’t need to give away any IP, just enough to get the device working properly. I can only guess they feel its in their best interests to not make a certain un-named company(MS) mad at them.This week BSD has been featured. Everybody waxed poetic about how wonderful BSD is. Thats fine the BSDs are good, but whenever a Linux story comes along wham out come the Linux sucks posts. BSD uses x too, BSD has as many if not more of the same problems that Linux has yet people treat BSD very different. SO I ask again are you guys really this worried about OSS/GPL and Linux? 2002-02-01 8:09 pm Alright, i apologize for the M$ crack, which could be considered as trolling. I will try to keep my personal opinions about others (which are without base) out of these comment sections. I am a firm believer though that the average Joe can use linux for his day to day tasks if set up right. Once again, i apologize. 2002-02-01 8:09 pm this is Offtopic, but aren’t there too much OS’s around? OpenBeOS, AtheOS, SkyOS, PetrOS, UUU, MenuetOS, Nanosistemas, Hurd? Looks like these OS’s are purely made for fun because they will never approach a level of usability? Can’t all these people do collaborative work on one OS? 2002-02-01 8:09 pm I agree with the article. Linux has its uses and even a few good applications (open office, gimp, blender). For many though, it’s just not an option for a main OS. For instance, I do a lot of sound editing on my computer. There simply is not a professional piece of sound editing software for linux that is comparable to Sound Forge or Cool edit. The closest thing is Audacity, but it won’t even let you record in stereo! So I use windows 2000 for the most part, and frankly, I’m very happy with it. It doesn’t have the style BeOS or anything, but it’s fast, stable, compatible and consistent. (The only downtime I’ve had with win2000 has been due to a hardware failure. Linux running KDE, it’s only slightly more stable than win98.) 2002-02-01 8:10 pm And as you can see by my lack of a closing italic tag, that I use Dreamweaver often, and again, nothing comparative on Linux. ;/ Vim would have catched that mistake 2002-02-01 8:12 pm > -use a word processor > With limited font support (unless you are geeky enough to figure out > how to make them install) and limited features compared to Windows > offerings, unless you are a professional typesetter and are paid to > learn and use TeX. Professional typesetters don’t use TeX. TeX is used by programmers writing manuals. Professional designers use Quark XPress, InDesign, or similar heavy-duty software. 2002-02-01 8:26 pm This will all be moot when WINE works. That said, the project has a long way to go before it will be considered widely usable. True. The examples I have seen so far of WINE apps, such as Corel PhotoPaint, are disasters. They are dog-slow, crash a lot, and can’t repaint the screen properly. What is the problem with WINE?? It has been in the works for years and still doesn’t work! How long have Macs been successfully running Windows software? Since about 1994 (+ or -)? And Macs have to deal with emulating a different CPU! 2002-02-01 8:28 pm I take my trolling accusations back. Sorry But I still don’t approve of bashing people for being pro-MS, pro-linux or whatever. This have to stop. Feel free however to criticize the OS’s, including my current OS of choice, W2K. 2002-02-01 8:30 pm Some of those OSes out there try to reach a general public, some don’t. Those that don’t are developed either for the individual to develop their knowledge before jumping to some other project that can’t tolerate newbies, or for research purposes. I personally develop UUU not to be a Linux/Windows/BSD alternative, but simply to have a friendly project that other ppl can learn the art of OS development from, in something much simpler than the various desktop OSes, as well as for research. Yes, I try to explore avenues which aren’t approached often by others, and sometime even if the design is often seen as flawed I will still try to explore some different way out of it. Nanosistemas? this project is old and was done when Win95/98/NT/2K/ME/CE were not yet on this world, back then developing a alternative GUI was day to day story. Alot of work went to translate the sources to english so that more ppl can benefit from the work of Justin (original author). AtheOS? I feel like they want to get an alternative OS without the, so called, bloat of X window. Make the project a bit more friendly to enter and it could move on quite nicely. OpenBeOS? Come on, you can’t hope all those Be fans to give up on their hope. BeOS was one of the marvel (and still is) of this world, achieving something not many operating system can claim: fast, small, a nice looking. No need to push it further, we all got Be in our heart. SkyOS, MenuetOS? Can’t keep young people from trying to learn the art of OS design. Not everybody love Linux, many ppl would like to develop and fix Windows, but it’s closed source. They are trying an alternative. PetrOS? A small footprint OS that tries to give the user as some freedom and speed, while not necessarily bringing in the whole complexity of a full featured Unix box. Hurd? Come on, no need to motivate this project, it’s been around for a while and try to break away the monolithic barrier (even though Linux has module) by presenting a true micro-kernel based Unix (and a free one at that). You didn’t bash QNX? why? they too tried to implement something, and what about HeliOS? Creating alternative OS isn’t something new, the only reason many of us belive so is because it’s easier to see those projects and learn of them, thanks to OSNews. 2002-02-01 8:53 pm Linux users can take people being critical Linux. uh huh… Saying X sucks, why can’t they fix the fonts whine whine whine. No, it is customers demanding from you what they can easily get elsewhere. How clueless can you penguins get?? Don’t be suprised if Linux people take the critical comments personal. Why not?? It is ridiculous. Users’ criticism of a product is called FEEDBACK. It should motivate penguins to improve their products. It should give them a strong hint that something needs to be fixed! Its alot of work to try and create a free OS just to be constanlty bombarded by the trolls. So, everyone who criticises Linux is a troll? Now who’s whining? Who forced you guys to create a free OS anyway? You act like it is everybody else’s fault that Linux is free! Keep that monkey on your own back, thank you. When IBM gets this criticism, they fix problems. When penguins get it, they flip everyone the bird and complain about how they work for nothing! The reasons fonts suck under x is because fonts are almost never free. One of the tenents of Linux is to be to free to distribute. Only those fonts that are free can be included. Gee, sounds like a fundamental flaw in “free software” to me! Can’t even deal with fonts! What else can’t it do? I don’t see microsoft porting Direct 3d so Linux users can play the current games. Would be nice, but why should they? They created it for their OS, not yours. Thats fine the BSDs are good, but whenever a Linux story comes along wham out come the Linux sucks posts. BSD uses x too, BSD has as many if not more of the same problems that Linux has yet people treat BSD very different. There is a big difference. Penguins try to force Linux down our throats as a valid desktop replacement for Windows (which is isn’t). FreeBSD does have X, but FreeBSD is promoted as a rock-solid server OS (which it is) and not nearly as much as a desktop system. FreeBSD people (including freebsd.org) are quick to tell you that their system isn’t there yet as a desktop OS for most people. Why can’t penguins demonstrate that kind of intellectual honesty? SO I ask again are you guys really this worried about OSS/GPL and Linux? Who’s worried? We’re just tired of the high-horse Linux advocacy attitude and the total lack of consideration for what PC users really need. This attitude of “You will take what we give you, and you will like it” is no way to increase your market share. 2002-02-01 8:56 pm RE: Raptor-32 Thanks dude. RE: someone <u>Disclaimer:</u> The following is an opinion I have formed based on experience. It is in no way grounded in fact. I think that you’ll find most of the readers of this site are pretty hype on the following operating systems (in this order) FreeBSD, BeOS, Win2K. These are all very good platforms, but very differennt from each other. FreeBSD doesn’t pretend to be more than it is, a stable, secure, open platform aimed at system administrators and developers. For this reason choice of FreeBSD as a person’s favorite OS is usually grounded solidly on different principles than those which usually spurn interest in Linux. Linux seems to be at heart mostly concerned with providing an open platform which is a free alternative. The Linux community places their product directly across from Windows and MacOS in a head-to-head battle for the desktop. Often, Linux users, though no fault of the platform itself, seem to have some religious objection to Windows; this is not usually the case with FreeBSD people, who just want to find the right tool to get the job done. When you place yourself in a position of religiously believing in one cause or another, you often open yourself up to criticism by the scientific community. I think this is the main reason many Linux posters get flamed; too often they display a religious belief in their platform of choice. BTW: My platform *of choice* is MacOS X. I just like to use it; it *feels* good to me. I can’t use this to do my work though. 2002-02-01 8:59 pm WINE might never work. For WINE to work, all of the windows APIs would have to be 100% fully documented. Do you see Microsoft helping a group that is trying to elliminate windows? WINE is a reverse engineering project, they will probably get sued the moment WINE gets close to being really usable. WINE does a great job getting solitare and hearts to run. If I might add, use the system that works for you. If its windows then use it, if its a Mac then use that. Let the people interested in Linux plug away. There is no reason for these holy wars about a persons choice in computing. Come on lets all play nice with each other. Let the PR depst act like @#$$ to each other. 2002-02-01 8:59 pm “What is the problem with WINE?? It has been in the works for years and still doesn’t work! How long have Macs been successfully running Windows software? Since about 1994 (+ or -)? And Macs have to deal with emulating a different CPU!” If you’re referring to Virtual PC, keep in mind that an actual copy of Windows is being run within a “virtual PC” to accomplish that feat. WINE is trying to create its own implementation of the Win32 API. Linux users can run VMWare to get the same results as Virtual PC, or run Win4Lin to avoid the need to emulate a CPU. 2002-02-01 9:13 pm WINE might never work. For WINE to work, all of the windows APIs would have to be 100% fully documented. Do you see Microsoft helping a group that is trying to elliminate windows? WINE is a reverse engineering project, they will probably get sued the moment WINE gets close to being really usable. Once again, if this is true, why have products like SoftPC/SoftWindows and it’s successors managed to get the job done on Macs? None of these companies have been sued. Maybe because they went in Microsoft’s front door to license the product instead of trying to break their code? WINE does a great job getting solitare and hearts to run. True, though of no benefit to anyone. I’m not against WINE. If it would work, I would boot into Linux more. I just don’t see how they can succeed in hitting such a secretive and mobile target by going down their chosen path, as you described above. 2002-02-01 9:16 pm The reaction to Roblimo on Newsforge, in my opinion, was based more on the disorganization of his editorial and the “no shit” nature of its content. If he was not a Linux user and didn’t run Slashdot and hadn’t been writing for Newsforge, which is a Linux based news site, he likely could have gotten away with it. The main bitch from any users that regularly read either of these sites is that Rob’s editorials are so utterly useless. Their atmosphere is that of a hastily written opinion piece that regurgitates what everyone already know anyway. Is Linux ready for everyday use by everyone? No. So, what’s his story? Who is he preaching too? And, why does the anyone need to waste their time discussing these dead issues? Of course he got some reaction out of the “my-love-for-Linux-has-blinded-me” crowd. The most relevant thing about his article was that it was offensive, because of the way in which he tried to make something out of nothing. There was no issue there to discuss, but for idiots. Rob was trolling for idiots. That’s all. I think maybe he just got a bug up his ass about all of the stupid little punks he has to deal with everyday on Slashdot. Thoughtful editorial? Hardly. Truth to some of what he said? Duh. Did everyone already know it? Yeah. Who cares? Not I. . 2002-02-01 9:18 pm If you’re referring to Virtual PC, keep in mind that an actual copy of Windows is being run within a “virtual PC” to accomplish that feat. WINE is trying to create its own implementation of the Win32 API. I don’t have the necesary midnset maybe, but why would they take the time to do this when better alternatives are available (as you describe below)? Linux users can run VMWare to get the same results as Virtual PC, or run Win4Lin to avoid the need to emulate a CPU. Maybe I should try that! Do both of these work well? 2002-02-01 9:21 pm Doug, WINE is not an emulator. It is a re-engineering of the Win32 API, and it DOES need full documentation of the Win32 API, otherwise it will *never* be possible to have WINE run the majority of Windows apps. WINE only runs on x86. SoftPC/SoftWindows are emulators. They emulate the x86 PC and its surrounding architecture, not Windows. Having Windows running on them is an outcome of emulating the x86. These emulators have nothing in common with WINE and they can run on other platforms, like Mac. VMWare is a x86 runtime, therefore it can only run on x86 machines (it is neither an emulator or a Win32 re-engineering – but somethign in between and yet, different). 2002-02-01 9:25 pm Doug you see Linux is not a product. There is no way to provide feedback to the company producing Linux because there is no company. You can complain to the group that produced your distrobution. The problem with fonts is not a problem with free software its a problem of companys demanding payment to use what they own. Thats fine they own their IP. There is no way to fix this problem until GPL fonts can be created to replace the commercial ones people want. You seem to have a great deal of hatred for Linux. Why don’t you just ignore OSS and Linux and use what works for you? Do you get some kind of cheap thrill bashing other peoples work? As far I can tell no one ever tried to force Linux down anyones throat. Linux got hyped a bunch by the clueless hoards thinking they were going to get to rich off of another microsoft. Again if Linux bothers you so much just ignore it. “Who’s worried? We’re just tired of the high-horse Linux advocacy attitude and the total lack of consideration for what PC users really need. This attitude of “You will take what we give you, and you will like it” is no way to increase your market share. ” Thats a funny remark because thats exactly what microsoft says about windows, and apple says about their stuff and sony says about their stuff and……………………………….. 2002-02-01 9:27 pm Talking about emulation, anyone has tried <a href=”http://bochs.sourceforge.net/“>it? “Bochs will allow you to run Win 95 and associated software on your Unix/X11 workstation, displaying a window on your workstation, simulating a monitor on a PC.” 2002-02-01 9:31 pm Yeah, I’ve tried BOCHS, but it is nowhere near as solid and fast as VirtualPC on the Mac. Speaking of emulation, does anyone remember the 6/7/8100-PC PowerPC systems? They were really cool. They had a PPC as the primary CPU running MacOS, then they had an additional x86 CPU on a daughter card which could run Windows simultaneously. You had a key combination to switch between the two. Now that was some cool shit. Of course they were prohibitively expensive (ahhaahhmmmghhnewimac) for a college student, as I was at the time . 2002-02-01 9:32 pm WINE’s task is rather complex, it has to act exactly like windows does, wait for interupts, do whats needed, and return to the app. Coding the receptors for these interupts is no small task as Windows is quite complex. WINE only works on x86 compatible CPUs because it actually executes the binaries that you pass through it. Pass an x86 binary to another platform, either it just wont run or you get a nice crash, the end result cant be good. Virtual Machines, for example Bochs, VMWare, nesticle, ZSNES… Yes, your favorite console emulators are virtual machines. They dont actually execute the files you send to it. What they do is analyze the file, and emulate the output. To make a virtual machine for a simple processor isnt THAT hard, there is usually plenty of documentation from processor manufacturers about how their processors work. x86 emulators can get hairy sometimes though, mainly because a whole lot of x86 OSes require a BIOS to do many of their functions. So not only must they code the emulator, they must code a compatible bios too. Thats where VMWare shines, they have a very nice bios for their emulator and so almost any os can run in it flawlessly. 2002-02-01 9:35 pm The problem with linux is NOT the lack of applications, it is NOT the GUI and NOT X Windows, it is simply the attitude of the distro makers and community. The reason Windows is successful? An idiot can use it. I use computers a lot. Yet after I installed Mandrake I was scratching my head trying to work out just how to install packages and programs. Little help, little explanation. Lots of apps though? Just not the ones I wanted. When somebody finally dons their thinking cap and constructs a distro that assumes the user is a complete moron, then you’ll have the desktop king of the castle. The problem, however, is not linux. And you have to consider that all this is free. Sure, tell me windows rules etc etc. Tell me of all the great programs. The GIMP does everything the lay Photoshop user wants, but doesn’t cost £600. StarOffice does everything the lay MS Office but doesn’t cost $500. If I don’t understand something, I can go on irc and as long as I ask the right way somebody will put me back on track. Unless you are a professional and you need the best of the best, a well set up linux based system can do everything you want and better. Just the problem is you need a guru to set it up well. 😐 So go on, tell me all these problems with all this free software. But don’t complain that you had to spend £2000 assembling your collection or make yourself a criminal by pirating it – which is probably how 95% of the readers of this website got their propietry software. /me included. 2002-02-01 9:37 pm “Once again, if this is true, why have products like SoftPC/SoftWindows and it’s successors managed to get the job done on Macs? None of these companies have been sued. Maybe because they went in Microsoft’s front door to license the product instead of trying to break their code? ” Yes the WINE could go and ask to license the windows API and pay for full documentation. Then WINE would useless. The point is to create a FREE as in no money and a FREE as in here is all of our source code, emulator that would allow people to run the windows apps they have on top of an x86 Linux box. See WINE is not a “PRODUCT” thats going to be sold, its a free software project. The whole idea of Linux and GNU is to provide a, totaly free form intellectual property constraints, operating system. Linux is not a product. Its an ideal. Although I think WINE uses a BSD style license. 2002-02-01 9:39 pm > Thats where VMWare shines, they have a very nice bios for their emulator and so almost any os can run in it flawlessly. Technically speaking, VMWare and Win4Lin are NOT emulators. They are x86 runtimes. This is why VMWare has better speed than the real emulators, like Bochs, VirtualPC, SoftPC/Windows etc (emulation of any kind results to 70-100 times slower execution speed, depending on the quality of the code – Runtime results to ~5-10 times slower than the real thing). The x86 instructions that need to be executed are not emulated, but passed to the existing x86 cpu on the machine to run “natively”. This is why VMWare and Win4Lin can only run on x86 machines, while the real emulators can run on any other architecture, like Mac, SPARC, SGI etc. 2002-02-01 9:45 pm First of all TaCo, didn’t he just say, “Unles you are using software that is TOTALLY specific to you job…” So I don’t see how your being VERY specific does anything but prove his point. Now for my response to what you wrote, you are obviously ignorant on several topics here. Let me enlighten you. “-Write email So there are Microsoft Exchange and Lotus Notes clients for Linux? Do they let me accept meeting requests with a click of a button and automatically add them to my schedule? Can I also view public discussion lists on my Exchange servers?” There are Lotus Notes clients for Linux, and exchange supports Webmail, which works just fine on any Linux browser. Whether you want to admit it or not, Webmail is a client. LN also has a web based client come to think of it (although I can’t for the life of me understand why anyone would wish to use Lotus Notes). “-surf the web Oh good, so now I can run all those ActiveX controls I find on my internal net for doing things like changing HR information, or signing my review, or adding folks to a discussion list in a Linux browser.” Why would you put ActiveX controls in a web page? ActiveX is a virus. You just have to hope it’s not a bad one. Safer ways exist to do dynamic content. What you should be saying is, “thank goodnes the people who engineered Linux did not port ActiveX to that platform!” “-chat with their “buddies” Can they chat with their MSN Messenger buddies?” Yes, through Jabber, Everybuddy, and a shload of other tools. “-use a word processor Absolutely, but is it going to produce compatible documents for all their friends to read in their Microsoft Word for Windows or Word for Macintosh products?” Actually, yes. StarOffice and OpenOffice can do that quite well. “I think you’ve not fully considered the tasks laypeople undertake on a daily basis.” No, I think you have no experience or understanding of the powerful tools that are available to Linux users. Why don’t you wait until you know what you’re talking about before you start flapping your wag hole? 2002-02-01 9:53 pm Eugenia: Huh, i didnt know that, good to know. Know of a good x86 emulator besides bochs that can run on a DEC Alpha? I could use one. 2002-02-01 9:58 pm “I never said it wansn’t proprietary . All I said is that people rely on it to do things. And yes, I definitely use ActiveX on the Internet. I use ActiveX plugins to watch QuickTime movies on Apple’s site, as well as Flash presentations. I use ActiveX stock tickers, and 3D IPIX previews of home sites (since I’m looking . I DEFINITELY use ActiveX as a home user, and I am very suprised to hear that you don’t, if you use Windows.” Actually, you can watch QuickTime, ShockWave, Flash and other thing on Linux. You apparently just don’t know how. I use Windows all the time. It is easy to use, but it is much more sterile and much less stable than OSX and even X with a good WM. Not bashing Windows, I use it all the time. I’m just saying it has a long way to go in the stability arena. 2002-02-01 10:00 pm > Every time there is an anti-linux story the trolls pile on. > Why do people feel the need to bash the work of others. > If you don’t like Linux then don’t use it. Are you guys > really this worried about Linux? God its just like when > os2 was constantly bashed online just before a win95 release. Oh yea. Your post is just piece of crap. Here, let me return your *EXACT* message, with some adjustment … + Every time there is an anti-Windows story the trolls pile on. + Why do people feel the need to bash the work of others. + If you don’t like Windows then don’t use it. Are you guys + really this worried about Windows? God its just like when + freeBSD was constantly bashed online just before a Linux release. Please ! There’s ***NOBODY*** like the Linux community members to bash on every single opposition. 2002-02-01 10:06 pm > Not bashing Windows, I use it all the time. I’m just > saying it has a long way to go in the stability arena. Which kernel are you using ? Yea, Windows ME is a piece of crap. But I don’t understand how you can get so much unstability with NT kernels. Personnaly I play (real) games, develop for Win & embedded QNX, constantly try new softwares, and times to times render some 3D “art”. And my Windows 2K is STILL VERY STABLE WITH AN UPTIME OF MANY WEEKS (sometime many months !!!). That’s not what I call an unstable OS. 2002-02-01 10:08 pm Steve is spot on. Linux users are the biggest bashers of alternate OS’. I know because a lot of my friends and colleagues are exactly this – mad evangelists. Just look at slashdot for linux users bashing microsoft at any chance they get. On that note (most interestingly), after being slashdotted some time back, I noticed that the 13k browser fingerprints in my w3 logfiles showed 90% of the browsers being IE 4.0. Go figure? 🙂 2002-02-01 10:10 pm > Linux users can take people being critical Linux. > Saying X sucks, why can’t they fix the fonts whine > whine whine. Is bashing, its not be constructive. > Don’t be suprised if Linux people take the critical > comments personal. Its alot of work to try and create > a free OS just to be constanlty bombarded by the trolls. PPLEEEAAAZZZEEE !!! Don’t tell me the Windows OS is not the #1 victim of bashing out there. How many time we can read ssooo constructive post like “Windows Suck ! Stupid Blue screen ! ” Don’t try to be the victim. There’s nothing like a teen jerk hooked on the linux HYPE (I put the emphasis on the later word) to bash everything around. You’ll not make me cry … 2002-02-01 10:15 pm > Linux users are the biggest bashers of alternate OS’. > I know because a lot of my friends and colleagues are > exactly this – mad evangelists. Exactly. I’m a big time BeOS developer. I love this little community. Is any freeBSD ever came to bash us ? ***NO*** MacOS? Windows? QNX? AmigaOS? EpochOS? WhateverOS ? *** NO ***. Who come bashing us ? Linux people. Again. 2002-02-01 10:38 pm About the <a href=”http://uuu.sf.net“>UUU future GUI. Quoted from Raptor-32: “we’ve begun porting (and i expect to be bashed here) Nano-X (http://www.microwindows.org), its X-like but uses very little memory.” Could you please explain briefly why do you prefer porting the old Nano-X, instead of other minimal GUIs like http://www.tutok.sk/fastgl/“<OpenGUI MiniGUI” rel=”nofollow”>http://www.minigui.org”>MiniGUI, or <a href=”http://pgui.sourceforge.net“>PicoGUI? PicoGUI being the coolest of all of them inmho. Thanks! 2002-02-01 10:41 pm Or <a href=”http://www.tutok.sk/fastgl“>OpenGUI. 2002-02-01 10:50 pm I didn’t bash QNX because: 1) It is a commercial OS, all that I’ve named are community OSs 2) It has it’s place and that place is reserved in embedded and realtime world also, I’ve never heard of HeliOS so I guess these OSs are very specialized either in education or trying to be different, therefore I understand now that they don’t need a collaborative effort… 2002-02-01 10:59 pm Did you even read my post? Did you read my responses later in this thread also? Clearly this comment of yours… BakaSmack: First of all TaCo, didn’t he just say, “Unles you are using software that is TOTALLY specific to you job…” So I don’t see how your being VERY specific does anything but prove his point. was made before you even bothered to read this: Mystic TaCo: I DEFINITELY use ActiveX as a home user, and I am very suprised to hear that you don’t, if you use Windows. Try reading to the end before you jump to conclusions. I have to commend you on the very PR way you took my comments out of context and tried to make them look like something I hadn’t intended to say though. This is one of my favorites: BakaSmack: “-chat with their “buddies” Can they chat with their MSN Messenger buddies?” Yes, through Jabber, Everybuddy, and a shload of other tools. Original: Mystic TaCo: Can they chat with their MSN Messenger buddies? Are they automatically signed in to their passport so that they can have personalized content delivered to them without having to sign in to every site they go to? The intent of this question was to point out the pervasive nature of Passport in Windows. Some users highly concerned with security, who do not want to be identified don’t care for Passport, but my wife likes that she can log in to MSN, Messenger, and Hotmail with the same log in. In fact, with XP, she’s logged into that Passport at Windows logon time, so she doesn’t have to re-enter that info for each provider. Actually, you can watch QuickTime, ShockWave, Flash and other thing on Linux. You apparently just don’t know how Ahh, I think you missed the point here. The point was not that these things couldn’t be done on another platform, the point was that they are done with ActiveX in Windows. If you use Windows, and don’t think you use ActiveX, then you have no idea what ActiveX is. BakaSmack I use Windows all the time. It is easy to use, but it is much more sterile and much less stable than OSX and even X with a good WM. Stability wise, I don’t agree with you here I’m afraid. I use Win2K for professional development (e.g. the machine gets used) and I’ve only had my Win2K box crash one time. Of course we buy high end hardware here, Dell Precision Workstations to be a little less vague. When you say “X with agood WM”, would that be X on IRIX? or maybe Solaris? old SUN-OS? HP/UX? A/UX? BeOS? FreeBSD? OpenBSD? NetBSD? Or were you trying to compare GDI to X? Or was your comparison meant to be Explorer to your favorite WM? <BakaSmack Now for my response to what you wrote, you are obviously ignorant on several topics here. Let me enlighten you. This was a rude thing to say, and for what it’s worth, I don’t feel any more enlightened for having read what you wrote. It doesn’t make you cool trying to make other people look bad. 2002-02-01 11:03 pm Hmm, some formatting problems. Let’s try that last part again: <BakaSmack Now for my response to what you wrote, you are obviously ignorant on several topics here. Let me enlighten you. This was a rude thing to say, and for what it’s worth, I don’t feel any more enlightened for having read what you wrote. It doesn’t make you cool trying to make other people look bad. 2002-02-01 11:05 pm Now that is strange. I wonder what is causing that text to be all bold. Check it out, this is what I wrote: <BakaSmack Now for my response to what you wrote, you are obviously ignorant on several topics here. Let me enlighten you. This was a rude thing to say, and for what it’s worth, I don’t feel any more enlightened for having read what you wrote. It doesn’t make you cool trying to make other people look bad. 2002-02-01 11:13 pm NICE <Baka !! I’m such a dope sometimes. 2002-02-01 11:19 pm Please put down the crack pipe before embedding any more HTML codes! My eyes are burning! 2002-02-01 11:38 pm Marques : To tell you the truth, we’ve never heard nor seen any of the projects you put forward, but i have 3 extra mozilla tabs open for them. So the reason we chose Nano-X would have to be “lack of knowledge of other choices”. When we were looking into Nano-X, the only other small GUI I had seen was nanosistemas (we have partially translated sources on the Uuu CVS is anyone wants them). Now that you have presented us with alternatives, we will have to re-evaluate what we will do. The things that made us choose Nano-X over nanosistemas were: -its device independant way of doing things -very nice API -well documented -Pseudo-compatibility with X -its sources not being a single file with 25000lines of realmode x86 assembly with portugese comments. Both had very small memory footprints though, and very small binaries. Nano-X ELF binaries are about 100kb, and there is alot of that that is just whiped out when porting to Uuu, because we will provide our own drivers, and not use its. Dave is currently trying to build PicoGUI for his machine, to see what its like, maybe if its good enough we will switch from nano-X to picogui. 2002-02-01 11:42 pm WINE – I hear all the good comments about WINE. My question is this: if other technologies are succeeding in getting Win apps to run on Linux, is WINE worth doing in the first place? Is the goal to run Win apps on Linux, or is it just to create something we can call “free” whether it works well or not? …while the real emulators can run on any other architecture, like Mac, SPARC, SGI etc. Eugenia – There’s an interesting concept: a real emulator! Sounds like the IRS’s “passive activity.” The reason Windows is successful? An idiot can use it. Yeah! Want my testimonial? So go on, tell me all these problems with all this free software. Well, if you insist. My issue isn’t that the software is bad (sometimes, but not others); it is that what I nee to do can’t be completely done by current Linux offerings, and that the system itself is such a pain to work with. YMMV. The lack of apps (like a good browser) is why I don’t boot into BeOS much. I love this OS!. Great font handling, easy app install, easy drive mounting, easy everything. As a desktop OS, it KOs Linux in the first round. But it has fallen behind, or the software doesn’t exist. If all things were equal, I’d Be using Be for everything. But don’t complain that you had to spend £2000 assembling your collection or make yourself a criminal by pirating it – which is probably how 95% of the readers of this website got their propietry software. /me included. Never have complained about paying for good software. If it is worth somebody putting the time and sweat into writing it, it is worth paying for it. I haven’t spent a £ since 1977 ($ only here), but my software is paid for (bargains are out there on eBay if you’re careful).” someone – Why don’t you just ignore OSS and Linux and use what works for you? I do. Do you get some kind of cheap thrill bashing other peoples work? Who’s work have I bashed? Names, please. All I have done is dare to challenge a few Linux sacred cows. From the viewpoint of the user sitting in front of his PC, these are real problems (such as the font problem and general usability) that must be dealt with. In general, people don’t care about some Linux distro maker’s (or Gnome’s or KDE’s) problem licensing closed-source technology; that isn’t their problem. They just want it to work. Making comments about my “hatred of Linux” or how I “bash other peoples’ work” doesn’t address the problems and is untrue. Frankly, it is a cheap shot. Bashing Windows is OK it seems. Is Linux off-limits? Are you going to direct this same comment to everyone here who criticises Linux? My comments are not unique, even in this thread. As far I can tell no one ever tried to force Linux down anyones throat. Not literally, of course. But anyone who has spent any time in Linux newsgroups has seen how people are treated who don’t agree that Linux is THE operating system for the desktop. Yes, people are called stupid, morons, idiots, less intelligent, if they say they prefer Windows. I have seen all of those words used. Again if Linux bothers you so much just ignore it. Linux does not bother me. Linux advocates bother me (to a point). Once again, am I not allowed to express an opinion if it is about Linux? If the Linux lovers don’t like Windows, why don’t they just ignore it? Linux is not a product. Its an ideal. Now that is getting right to the heart of the matter. Most software products tend to run pretty well on my computer. Ideals have more trouble. Software is a product, like it or not, whether closed source or open, and whether or not it is for sale. WINE may be an interesting concept, but what is it accomplishing of any real value to anyone, especially if the same task is already being done successfully by other means? 2002-02-02 1:33 am TaCo, I know what ActiveX is, but I used it only once in my App. In fact, I would kill my folks, if they would link our IS to Windows registry sytem. It can all be done much better – simplicity is what I like. Copy and run … So you working for SUN, right? Strange you seem to propose ActiveX here 🙂 COM/DCOM is fine (from what I read about it), we just actually don’t use it. Some programmers do, but I prefer clean TCP based communication, which is a little more tolerant to multi-platform issues. I know that 95% of desktops run Windows, but once PDAs and other stuff takes off, IE + ActiveX is not all that clear advantage to me, or I am just confused and missunderstood your comment … Well, what a coincidence. I just read one computer mag, and two short news on one site: – Exchange from Linux, downloaded by more than 800K users, done by company called Ximian – FreeThink 2.0 – MSOffice compatible format under Linux? As for Lotus Notes – you probably forgot what was the original platform? IIRC, OS2 and some unix was first. If our admin was right, then RNext – LN 6.0 should work also under Linux … -pekr- 2002-02-02 1:37 am >if other technologies are succeeding in getting Win apps to run on Linux, is WINE worth doing in the first place? Is the goal to run Win apps on Linux, or is it just to create something we can call “free” whether it works well or not? With either an x86 emulator or a runtime, you run Windows under another operating system, inside a window that represents a virtual screen. The whole “emulated” OS is running inside that window. (check screenshots on their respective websites) With WINE, you run individual applications by double clicking them. You can use them as they were native Linux ones. You only run the application you want, you do not run the whole OS emulated. WINE is posing itself as Windows, and applications think they run under Windows. So, WINE is trying to be a free re-implementation of Windows of some sort (not quite, but I am trying to help you understand). No copy of Windows needs to be purchased. With runtimes or emulators you will still need to buy Windows, fire up the emulator/runtime and then install the purchased Windows copy on the virtual machine, running inside a window. 2002-02-02 1:38 am Well, I haven’t read ALL of the comments here, but quite a few. It’s funny that when someone asks “Why would anyone ever use Windows instead of Linux?” and you start to explain to them the apps you run and things that Linux can’t do, and you usually get reposnes like “Oh, that’s bloatware!” or “Oh, what a useless feature, who uses that anyway?” Personally, I am not willing to trade the functionality of my apps in favor of a ‘superior OS.’ I use Win2k now (which never crashes) but even when I used Win98 and had to reboot once or twice a day, it was still worth the trouble because the computer did what I needed it to do. I am not a diehard Windows user and would definitely switch if something better came along. But as far as Linux is concerned, don’t even waste my time. 2002-02-02 1:50 am Continuing my above comment: Problem with WINE is that they re-implement the whole Windows API. And not all the Windows API is documented. Therefore the incompatibilities and low success rate. If Microsoft do not document all their functions and stuff, WINE will never be able to run most of the apps. You can reverse engineer some things, but that would be illegal. 2002-02-02 2:30 am Just a few things to add after reading more comments … “There are Lotus Notes clients for Linux, and exchange supports Webmail, which works just fine on any Linux browser.” But does it work as well and have all the functionality that Outlook does under Windows? “(although I can’t for the life of me understand why anyone would wish to use Lotus Notes).” This is an example of what I was talking about above .. they go off with the “why would anyone ever want to use such-and-such’ rant. I’ll give you a good reason … some people are forced to use it because the companies they work for (*cough* IBM *cough*) insist on using inferior apps simply because it is not made by Microsoft. This is not unlike the Linux crowd as a whole. (Having said all that, just to be fair, Lotus Notes can and does run under Wine.) “Why would you put ActiveX controls in a web page? ActiveX is a virus.” This proves my point even further. Personally, I don’t have a webpage to put anything ActiveX on. But other webpages do, and want to use them. This is a prime example of Linux zealots thinking that just because the technology is of no use to *THEM* means that is should be of no use to anyone else, so therefore everyone should give up such technologies and switch to Linux. “Can they chat with their MSN Messenger buddies?” Yes, through Jabber, Everybuddy, and a shload of other tools.” Will Jabber and Everybuddy let people do voice/video chat and IMViroments with Yahoo Messenger users? Ahhh yes, I know … who would ever want to do that, right? Also, I don’t have the exact quote, but people who whine that X can’t support decent fonts or that Linux can’t support my hardware for one reason or the other, here’s a quater .. call someone who cares … “But don’t complain that you had to spend £2000 assembling your collection” Who’s complaning? The Mac users are right when they say quality is worth paying for. I would say that all of my apps cost upwards of $1,000 or more, but if it means I don’t have to spend months dicking with my computer just to get half the functionaly that I currently had to pay for, then so be it. 2002-02-02 3:25 am GNU is the OS I’d like to use GNU on HURD or on Darwin or somewhere else. I’d like OBOS is already set Anyway at the moment GNU/Linux is almost perfect for my needs, qnx isn’t complete yet and I’m not good enough to help in OBOS developement. the only thing that GNU/linux lacks is a good CAD. for the 3d we got blender and for the manipulation we have gimp that are already good (not perfect, good) 2002-02-02 3:49 am Linux is not a product. Its an ideal. Now that is getting right to the heart of the matter. Most software products tend to run pretty well on my computer. Ideals have more trouble. ———- LOL! My favourite line in this whole thread. If Linux is an IDEAL, I’d like to know whose ideal it is. *laughs hysterically* Linux has a long way to go with Joe User. If the average Linux enthusiast doesn’t see it, I’d say it’s their geekness is religious, and/or they have lost sight of the bigger picture and what Joe User wants in an operating system. 2002-02-02 4:03 pm RE:clone304 >I think maybe he just got a bug up his ass about all of the stupid little >punks he has to deal with everyday on Slashdot. Thoughtful editorial? Hardly. >Truth to some of what he said? Duh. Did everyone already know it? Yeah. Who >cares? Not I. If everyone knows it mabye you should tell the “Bashing MS is the prupose of my life GNU Linux zealots”. RE:someone >There is no way to fix this problem until GPL fonts can be created to replace >the commercial ones people want Maybye someone should make some fonts instead of making another text editor, I mean how many do you need. >As far I can tell no one ever tried to force Linux down anyones throat. Linux >got hyped a bunch by the clueless hoards thinking they were going to get to >rich off of another microsoft. Again if Linux bothers you so much just ignore >it. What rock have you been living under mabye you should read some more of the threads here you don’t see it often but sometimes someone comes along and gives it a try. I’ve seen people do it on gaminng forums (Linux for gamming hahaha). RE:Mystic TaCo >Speaking of emulation, does anyone remember the 6/7/8100-PC PowerPC systems? >They were really cool. They had a PPC as the primary CPU running MacOS, then >they had an additional x86 CPU on a daughter card which could run Windows >simultaneously. You had a key combination to switch between the two. Sun used to sell PCI cards that had a 486 built on them that was used to run X86 stuff. The Amiga had them too (probably before Sun), comodore even built one with a 286. Brigeboards I think they were called. RE:Doug (the other one) >WINE – I hear all the good comments about WINE. My question is this: if other >technologies are succeeding in getting Win apps to run on Linux, is WINE worth >doing in the first place? Is the goal to run Win apps on Linux, or is it just >to create something we can call “free” whether it works well or not? Wine will ues your acctual hardware whereas VPC, VMWare, etc. emulate standard hardware eg. 2D only S3 video card. This means you can’t play modern games on VPC, etc. But might be lucky with wine. 2002-02-03 1:02 am lu_zero GNU is the OS Gnu’s Not Unix 2002-02-03 9:07 pm i find this really amazing. if so many supposedly great developrs are working on linux, can’t they see that it is missing any sign of elegance or the presence of a single modern feature. for god sakes, a single person can come up with something so much more neat!!!! people should just stop bashing MS, they people woring there arevery intellegent and it shows in the products. period! fuck linux GUIs, look at LiteStep!! it shows that LiteStep programmers are much smarter and ages ahead of linux morans. the good thhing about Linux is that it provides a giant toilet for all stupid programmers to shit in! thank you. 2002-02-03 10:19 pm You posted that in another thread the jimbo 2002-02-04 8:24 am YEAHH !! WINDOWS IS BETTER. windows have 100,000,000,000… of virus!!!! linux is more dificult because I don’t now how write my .vbs in POSIX 2002-02-04 5:43 pm This kind of conversation has degenerated to the same level as the worst Slashdot troll wars, as usual. This does nothing to benefit society, the fair spreading of alternate operating systems, or even the hissing readers of this forum. WHY are people whining about Linux? Why do they complain about the shortcomings of MacOSX? Are AtheOS’ widgets really worth arguing about? All this forum does is convince people NOT to try out these OSes. Nobody’s willing to try something new because of shortcomings – shortcomings that *could* be fixed if these OSes had over 5% market share, which they never will, thanks to you giving them ALL a black eye. It’s like the card game my brother plays, right now Windows is the Prez, Linux is Vice, and so on down the line. Windows, being the top dog, has all the cards stacked in its favor. The only hope the little A-holes have of getting up in the world is fluke luck and good publicity on these boards, which I notice they never get. You guys whine forever. Why don’t you just stick with WindowsXP and give up any chance of an alternate OS ever becoming good enough to use on the desktop? When Windows wins, it’s because of YOUR voting with your wallet. When Linux/Mac/BeOS LOSES, it’s because you compare every new up-and-coming OS to one that is pretty much complete, funded with BILLIONS of dollars and has THOUSANDS of companies writing software for it. How is Kurt at AtheOS supposed to compare to that? How are the BeOS guys supposed to stay alive, if it’s not through the support of their people? If you’ll notice, Microsoft has MANY people in their corner. Whose corner are YOU in? Microsoft loves to cut off the air supply of their competition, and every time they succeed, they have more strength to attack someone else. And this forum doesn’t help Linux overcome their GUI flaws, and Eugenia complaining about the price of Macs doesn’t help Apple lower prices (since bigger marketshare usually means lower prices, since costs are carried per unit). And of course, the universally beloved BeOS lost many sales due to widespread public attacks over their lack of Bone and OpenGL (and Microsoft’s nasty OEM agreements, which are fueled by the strength of the Microsoft marketshare, which in turn is fueled by people like you tearing down all non-Microsoft operating systems daily in a forum designed just for ranting). You do a great work for pushing the status quo – Windows. Thanks a lot. The market really needs it. These guys have to prop up Corel and Apple financially to make them look like competition, and they claim Linux is competition, while others note that <2% use Linux on the desktop. Great. No thanks, this site is no longer for me. I’m a *Windows* user who wishes the market was a bit more even, because I feel the pinch due to Microsoft’s increasing laziness because of their monopoly, and OSNEWS has just lost me as a regular because you ain’t helping. Your slogan shouldn’t be “Exploring the Future of Computing”, it should be “Tearing apart the weak and the young”.