Sun has offered a frank response to the open letter from Eric S, Raymond, President, Open Source Initiative, in which he called on Sun to make its Java platform Open Source and described the company’s Open Source strategy as ‘spotty’ and ‘confused’. ‘I’d say this is 100 per cent rant,‘ Sun’s Chief Technology Evangelist, Simon Phipps said. ‘His simplistic accusations don’t hold water… If this is the way that Open Source treats its friends, I’d hate to see how it treats its enemies.‘
Sun Fires Back over Open Source Java Accusations
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As Phipps said in the article, Java is not controlled by Sun any more. The Java Community Process is now the authority, and all of the specifications are open and free. Anyone can make a free implementation of Java that adheres to the specification.
Sun has spent literally millions (perhaps hundreds of millions) on developing its Java implementation. What Sun wants to do with their implementation is their business. IBM also has a competing implementation that is technologically advanced and meets the specifications, and runs on Linux, why isn’t ESR crying out for IBM to open up THEIR code for Java?
*sniff* Smells like a double-standard. Because IBM talked up Linux and promised lots of money for developing it (cough, for their own purposes of course), that’s fine.
Besides, ESR is completely misinformed. There exists already several Open source Java efforts. Kaffe and GCJ. Oh…and how about JIKES, a completely open-source, high-performance and free Java VM which about 150 papers have been published about for the past 4 years, but ESR doesn’t know about? Wake up, Eric.
I’m with sun on this one, too much heart, not enough brains on the part of ESR. Sure if Java was completly open it would surely take off, but what would sun get out of the deal? they’ve been dumping funds into this for years. I do not blame them one bit. That being said when C# is mature on mono Java is going to run into a few hurdles.
…but to make it “free software” in the semantics of the smelly GNU legions, it would cease to be one of its most important defining characteristics, a standard. By rigorously testing Java implementations, Sun ensures application interoperability regardless of the platform. Allowing anyone to simply make changes willy nilly yet still distribute the package as Java would destroy this, along with any hope that Java has of surviving .NET
He said that “If this is how open source treats friends, I’d hate to see how it treats enemies.”
Heh heh heh… Sun LOVES the way O.S. treats its enemies (M$).
WHY would they open-source it? It’s not like they have to, stop stupid open-source zealots, java is good, sun owns it, let them enjoy it.
First, ESR should have known that Sun has been getting needled on the open source issue for years. Maybe its pride, maybe its strategic, who knows, but Sun is not going to let go of Java. Arguably its the one key technology that keeps them relevant as a platform company. Without it they quickly become another box vendor.
On the other hand, Phipps comments regarding Perl and Python make no sense. The merits of open source are valid regardless of the label of “scripting language” etc. There are numerous firms that trust parts of their enterprise to Perl and/or Python (presuming his intention was to imply that “scripting” langs are not seriously employed and hence do not need serious stewardship).
That said, the JCP is a broken process long term because it will devolve into corporate wars (probably already has) instead of what is best for the language.
The losers long term will probably be Java users, as Sun adds cruft to the language to stay one step ahead of gcj, kaffe, etc which are bound to catch up given enough time.
>> …but to make it “free software” in the semantics of the smelly GNU legions, it would cease to be one of its most important defining characteristics, a standard.
What standard? If you answer me that it is a “de facto” standard, then I argue that the .doc format is also a standard.
>> Sun has spent literally millions (perhaps hundreds of millions) on developing its Java implementation. What Sun wants to do with their implementation is their business.
True, but I think the point people have been making is that only open source/free software implementations tend to survive and prosper over time, so by that argument (you may or may not agree with), Sun’s best long term ROI on the entire line of Java-related software is to open it up the JDK/JRE and focus on ancillary tools. Certainly the ISVs marketing Java tools would benefit from a larger userbase.
Sun might also benefit from a environment change that forces them to focus more on ancillary tools than the JDK/JRE itself, seeing how Eclipse is eating their lunch in IDE mindshare.
by Sun or whoever.
but it really needs to be controlled,
just for a sake of interoperability.
as long as its spec is open,
and drive by committee (like JCP),
i see no reason why we need anything more from Sun.
(source code of Sun’s Java reference implementation is available — in a non-open source compatible license. but its spec is just there, and many open-source implementations also.)
they DO open source when it makes sense to do so.
see
http://www.sunsource.net/
see major contributions like
i18n in X, a11n in GNOME, let Tomcat to Apache, i18n in Mozilla, and OpenOffice.org
but for Java, they just can’t.
I tend to be cautious when it cvomes to supporting
anything ESR says. He lacks the levelheadedness of
Linus. IMO he is as extreme as RMS (but without the
steadfastness and dedication to principle that, IMO,
is RMS’ saving grace).
At any rate, I couldn’t let the comment about “friends”
pass. Lest you folks forget, Sun’s support of Open Source *has* been spotty, at best.
They also gave SCO several million dollars recently. This, IMO, is an unforgiveable sin which has directly contributed to the grief SCO has caused the Open Source community.
Is Sun a friend to Open Source people? I don’t think so. A temporary ally at best.
And yes, I do know about the stuff (like NFS) that Sun
has contributed to the world. I also know that Sun has benefited greatly from Open Source (BSD, to be specific).
What standard? If you answer me that it is a “de facto” standard, then I argue that the .doc format is also a standard.
Standard as in the behavior of the Java VM should be virtually identical on any Sun certified build. Horrible problems arise when a particular VM implementation deviates from these standards, such as the Microsoft VMs. The likelyhood of a community supported VM making substantial changes to the Java VM yet still being able to pass Sun’s tests is minimal. Should Sun really allow disparate VMs to be distributed and still be called “Java”? Doing so would only damage Java as a platform independent language.
“The likelyhood of a community supported VM making substantial changes to the Java VM yet still being able to pass Sun’s tests is minimal.”
How can you say this?
And open source != community supported
“Should Sun really allow disparate VMs to be distributed and still be called “Java”?”
Open source != no trademarks
“””How can you say this?”””
There aren’t really any free opcodes in the VM to add whiz bang features. They’d have more luck trying to optimize certain libraries.
Hello,
Nope… Following this reasoning there should be many versions of Linux, GCC, OpenOffice, etc. etc. But it’s a non-issue in Open Source world. Partly because bigger projects attract more developers, then become bigger, then attract yet more developers then… etc. etc. These kinds of project are called category killers and, unless horribly managed, are extremly hard to be overgrown by another, similiar projects. Of course, there are sometimes forks of big projects (for example gcc/egcs), but it usually because of a major unresolved problem occuring for some time (for example, gcc and egcs joined back after gcc folks realized that fork occured because of bad management/lack of progress in the project).
Sun’s position comes off mainly because OSS as a whole thing (platform, application server stack) is also a major threat to their business. Sun leaders were blindly ignoring market trends for a long time (upcoming monopoly, software/hardware becoming a commodity etc.) and didn’t prepare their company for these threats (for example, by extending their businness to consulting/services as IBM did).
So, today we have semi-closed, opening-slowly, a bit crappy implemented Java, still not ready to be put into most distributions of Linux/*BSD (mainly because of licensing problems) and is losing ground to .NET (in Linux arena too, see MONO). Open versions of Java (Kaffe, GCJ, Classpath etc.) don’t follow original Sun implementation just like CORBA implementations don’t strictly follow official CORBA standard: it’s too difficult to follow paper spec of such a complicated thing (API, complicated protocol etc.). At that level of complication there SHOULD be ONE really open reference implementation (Sun Public License?).
Sadly, most of open source java software doesn’t work reliably on opensource JVMs. I’m looking curiously at MONO: those folks are trying to create their own platform based on ECMA specs, some Microsoft APIs (ADO), GTK#, GLADE#, Novell extensions, etc. It looks great and grows at astonishing pace, but it’s still too young, lacks of good class libraries (yeah, there are thousands packages for Java) and Evil(R) can potentially throw their lawyers and smash MONO as soon as it will take off, using more or less bogus patents (yay, we all love software patents!).
Summary: 1) proper open sourcing a software product will strengthen standard, not break it ; 2) Sun chiefs have misguided their company and today are suffering because of it ; 3) java is still waiting for its prime time in OSS world ; 4) Sun can’t control Java so tightly forever, something else will take Java place otherwise ;
Forgive me my bad english
Regards,
rle
“There aren’t really any free opcodes in the VM to add whiz bang features. They’d have more luck trying to optimize certain libraries.”
And why would a open source java would add “whiz bang” features?
This to me sounds like another open-source zealot who belives that if a certain thing were open everything would be x10 better.. this is sometimes true, but not always. Keep it up to Sun or whoever is in charge of Java, to control their code.
ESR is 100% correct to say that Perl and Python are a better choice than Java. The source code is open and accessible, nobody will be discontinuing those projects or else phasing them out, it is impossible. Maybe after 300 years they will get phased out, but we would never know the difference. Java on the other hand as well as .Net maybe have ten years left before they are discontinued and phased out by the vendor that controls them.
ESR is a great asset to the open source community. He is also much more knowledgable regarding the issues than you kids give him credit for.
That Evangelist is a paid representitive. If McNealey told him to sleep upside down, than you better believe it, he would.
Forgive me for not reading through all the comments but I’m a liitle short on time and wanted to throw my 2 cents in.
Is it me but does this guy need to be a little more thick skinned. If they want keep Java closed, fine their software they can do what they want. I know I’m going draw fire about so and so who in FSF ( or fill in your favorite O.S. project) that lashed out at so and so. I’m talking about a large corporation who has a problem with their execs having public tantums over a few words not a handful of induviduals. You guys complain about IBM not be as big of contributor. Sure I guess thats probably true, but they tend to work the community with a much finese and tact. And yes IBM has been on the Linux bandwagon a fair bit longer than you. That said, I would like to welcome Sun to open source community, make sure your flame jacket is fully zipped uprite position. Because if think you this is bad, until you have proven yourself to be in it for the long haul, it can and probably get worse.
>> Should Sun really allow disparate VMs to be distributed and still be called “Java”? Doing so would only damage Java as a platform independent language.
well something like the jcp should still exist, after all perl has larry wall and python has guido and linux has linus….all of whom serve a purpose of being the arbiter of what is “perl” what is “linux” etc.
no one is saying there should not be an authority of some sorts.
and also opening source to these other langs has not broken them, as the need to fork drops off rapidly. in fact perl probably runs better on more platforms than java ever has. keeping java closed will keep the forks/open clones alive, creating more fragmentation.
They also gave SCO several million dollars recently. This, IMO, is an unforgiveable sin which has directly contributed to the grief SCO has caused the Open Source community.
ahum… why does this constantly come up? Sun doesn’t “give” money to SCO like a donation. Why do people refuse to speak the truth? “Paying” license fees to SCO is quite a different thing from “giving” money.
On the other hand… doesn’t Sun “give” money to the OSDL?
John
The vendors want to maintian a constantly changing environment, so that you keep buying stuff. Every X number of years everything will change, the old way will first be discontinued and than it will be removed whether you like it or not, and you will be forced to take on the new way at your expense. At least with Perl/Python they will never be removed from your control, and they will not be discontinued ever! You will be able to take Perl/Python and its upgrades, more libraries, etc, and upgrade to a new version of the platform or new hardware. A vendor will not allow you to continue with programming methods that it decides are going to be phased out, not because those methods are no good anymore, but because they want to force you to buy all of their products whether it is in your interest or not, you have not control. Therefore an open source Java licensed under the GPL gives the open source community control to preserve Java for many decades as a way of developing software, and also we could reuse some of the research and development for other projects.
Howdy
Well Sun should still control the Java trademarks etc but why not open up the JVM source and library code to peer reveiw (ala linux kernel)?
Sun could still control the changes made etc (ala linus style) so i can`t see a reason for it.
If you look at the GNU Classpath project it basically says if you look at the Sun library source your contaminated and don`t bother contributing to this project, so instead of allowing 1 set of peer reveiwed libraries to be used by all, people have to go out and re-invent the wheel.
This seems so horribly horribly wrong to me.
“And why would a open source java would add “whiz bang” features?”
Gee, why would an open source C compiler add “whiz bang” features!!? GCC was not happy enough to take the mile of leeway available in the C language (under)specification, they even had to add their own extensions that people grew accustomed to. For example, the Linux kernel cannot be compiled with any compiler other than gcc (except Intel’s C compiler, which has tried to add all of gcc’s dumb extensions in order to be a drop in replacement). This defeats the whole purpose of a language specification. Just look how easy it is to dig under a standard and become dependent on a particular implementation.
Sun’s implementation should NOT be taken as the specification. The published SPECIFICATION should be taken as the SPECIFICATION. There are, in fact, other completely compliant implementations available.
THERE ARE DOZENS OF IMPLEMENTATIONS OF JAVA ALREADY. Just because those available open source ones happen to be pieces of shit is no reason to clamor for Sun to open theirs.
LOOK TO IBM.
Why do people keep beating on Sun?
It absolutely floors me that the open source community, which is supposed to have the one true development method continues to bitch and moan that they cannot have an implementation financed, debugging, QAed, and delivered to them on their doorstep instead of uniting behind one of the handful of current open source alternatives? The community has generally had the balls and manpower to build replacements for anything they felt was important, but now the masses just rise up and ask for a gift!
I have a suggestion. If half of the dumbasses writing Gxyz Braindead Windows Application Replacement 0.5.0 put their heads together and made a complete and compliant (although probably slow) free implementation of Java, or even just volunteered to provide alternative implementations of just a few of the classes in the JDK, they would benefit by having a REAL platform for Java, and although those Java applications ALREADY WRITTEN could actually RUN WITHOUT MODIFICATION.
Make the platform, and the applications will come for free!
Control, control, control, never forget the most important thing in the technology business. Don’t get clouded by anything anyone tells you unless they are telling you to take hold of the research and development and guarantee it’s preservation. Why should someone else have all of the control and power, when it can be yours. Only than can we pursue the development of quality software that serves our own interests. If you don’t have control over the implemenation, than you have nothing! You are insigificant. So lets stop working for Sun, Microsoft, etc, and lets make our own decisions. That’s what open source says.
You don’t have to take control over your computer but some people will, and some people already are, because open source offers an open and accessible implementation for the community and for individuals. You can go and trumpet or evangelise Java for Sun or else .Net for Microsoft or whatever else they happen to be selling, it will most certainly completely change and the old way will be removed, who cares if you don’t want it to be taken away. Call progress what you will.
ESR wants to garuntee the future of Java, that’s why he wants it to be open source. That’s all it’s about, nothing else.
What makes SUN think that by open sourcing java, they loose control over it? I’ve said it before, and I’m saying it again, SUN isn’t serious.
They made the same mistake with their window system. They committed the same mistake with Jini, and now their doing the same with Java.
Wasn’t it after SUN open sourced NFS it gained popularity and acceptance? How about OpenOffice.org? Watch how all the Java developers become .NET fanatics.
And from most of what I heard about Java-1.5, there’s nothing impressive over what .NET offers.
suckybascule (IP: 207.162.80.—)
“Should Sun really allow disparate VMs to be distributed and still be called “Java”?”
Open source != no trademarks
I don’t know why I’m feeding such an obvious troll… perhaps because the troll’s remarks are so ridiculous. Have you ever read the Apache license? Forks of the Apache Project are not allowed to use the name “Apache”.
“Linux” is registered trademark of Linus Torvalds. Sheesh.
Following this reasoning there should be many versions of Linux, GCC, OpenOffice, etc. etc.
Of these the only one that’s really pertainent is OO.o, which is a community supported version of what was originally a commercial product. Another such example would be Mozilla.
But it’s a non-issue in Open Source world. Partly because bigger projects attract more developers, then become bigger, then attract yet more developers then… etc. etc.
The issue isn’t multiple forks… I’m not suggesting this would happen. I’m suggesting that were Sun to GPL the complete Java codebase, after a short period of time that codebase would be unlikely to pass Sun’s testing process.
Summary: 1) proper open sourcing a software product will strengthen standard, not break it
I’m sorry, but this is completely unsubstantiated in your post. For example, porting the JVM from Linux to FreeBSD broke a considerable number of things within the JVM, and it was only after repeatedly fixing the problems and submitting the codebase to Sun that the FreeBSD developers were able to receive Sun certification.
Provided Sun were to GPL the code, and their test suites, and provided the community that grew around the GPL Java release to support and develop it was committed to preserving the Java standard, a “free software” release might not destroy Java as a language.
However, is it beneficial to Sun as a company? Not in the slightest…
As is, the source to Java is open, but Sun retains control, the Java standard is not diluted, the trustworthyness of the Java platform is maintained, and users of Java can receive commercial support through Sun. What benefits would an open source release bring to the table that would not outweigh the potentially disasterous consequences?
What makes SUN think that by open sourcing java, they loose control over it?
Sun has already opened the source to Java:
http://jsecom8a.sun.com:80/ECom/EComActionServlet?StoreId=5&PartDet…
Obviously the SCSL is not a “free software” license in the eyes of GNU.
Were Sun to release Java under the GPL, they would lose all control of Java as a technology. Anyone would be free to modify the code and release versions which are (intentionally or unintentionally) incompatible with each other in various respects.
As is, any binary of Java you legally download has been placed through a very rigorous testing process to ensure that compatibility has not been broken. Java is an enormous cross-platform abstraction layer, and there are thousands if not millions of aspects which must be tested to ensure compatibility with other versions has not been broken.
Sun’s implementation should NOT be taken as the specification.
It isn’t, it’s just Sun’s implementation and forks thereof are the only ones which can pass the full suite of tests performed by the Java Techology Compatibility Kit.
The published SPECIFICATION should be taken as the SPECIFICATION. There are, in fact, other completely compliant implementations available.
Can you point to an implementation which isn’t a fork of Sun’s original code which passes all the tests contained in the Java TCK? As far as I’ve ever heard none exist…
“I don’t know why I’m feeding such an obvious troll… perhaps because the troll’s remarks are so ridiculous. Have you ever read the Apache license? Forks of the Apache Project are not allowed to use the name “Apache”.
“Linux” is registered trademark of Linus Torvalds. Sheesh. ”
Hahaha I can’t beleive who is the troll here.
I totaly agree with you here, that’s why i said open source IS NOT EQUAL to “no trademarks”. Can’t you read?
And that’s why even if sun open sources java, they can keep control of it, with trademarks and specs.
And if you didn’t understand my other point, don’t forget that if Sun releases the SDK with an open source license, they still have the right to refuse all patches, do as they wish with their own SDK, etc.
Before saying that people are “obvious trolls”, maybe you should check yourself. I can’t beleive how much fud you spread here on osnews bascule.
Java is Sun’s baby. That’s just the way it is…deal.
As long as they keep supporting their JVM on linux there’s nothing to worry about. Frankly, it’s a non-issue. Sun doesn’t disallow OSS uses, they just don’t want to make their baby free…that’s not so bad. After all, Nvida drivers aren’t free either…but it’s good enough for now. In some ways OSS isn’t always the best solution. The existing OSS solutions keep sun on their toes…otherwise they’d ignore linux. And they allow OSS to develop clones…they just don’t support & endorse them…and why should they have to?
This is the classic situation of OSS gurus overreaching for ideology purposes when they’ve already got a good thing going. There seems to be a small but vocal minority of OSS leaders that simply have a problem with large companies making money! Even if Sun released the source GPL tomorrow they’d still bellyache about Sun making a profit from something else! Sun seems to be walking the line pretty closely between pleasing customers and stockholders…but remember, if they don’t get money from SOMEWHERE they won’t be able to make more Java at all..and THEY’LL need jobs! But I think they’re right on track…it’s time to get OSS out there and stop “biting the hands” willing to help us out!
Anonymous writes: “Besides, ESR is completely misinformed. There exists already several Open source Java efforts. Kaffe and GCJ. Oh…and how about JIKES, a completely open-source, high-performance and free Java VM which about 150 papers have been published about for the past 4 years, but ESR doesn’t know about? Wake up, Eric.”
Then why can’t i run certain Java applications with these open source solutions? I need Sun’s VM. More specific, a 1.4 version. Kaffe wouldn’t run it.
The open source implementations are incomplete. On the bright side:
“[…] Sun would support an Open Source version of Java, but it need a lot of money and time to do so. You can’t just flick a switch. Right now Sun has higher priorities in the form of Java 1.5,’ he said. — Simon Phipps, Chief Technology Evangelist, Sun Microsystems”
Cool! I, for one, am looking forward to the contributions by Sun to above (and other) compononents and indeed Sun supports FLOSS is in several ways. For example they started contributing to GNOME.
“Obviously the SCSL is not a “free software” license in the eyes of GNU.”
Neither is it “open source” in the eyes of OSI.
Because i don’t see it listed here:
http://www.opensource.org/licenses/
Interesting to ask why “nobody else has bothered” to write a free implementation of Java, and accuse IBM of “wrapping itself in the flag”.. since IBM appears to be supporting the development of Jikes (already mentioned above)..
Am I missing something?
Ian
Neither is it “open source” in the eyes of OSI. Because i don’t see it listed here
Again, we come to one set of semantics conflicting with another…
The source to the JDK is open in that you are free to download it, examine it, modify it for your own uses, build binaries for your own use, as well as create and redistribute patches against it. The only restriction is that you cannot distribute binaries built from the sources. Apparently, in OSI’s mind, lack of redistribution restrictions are somehow part of the definition of the word “open”.
GNU and OSI disagree on the definitions of “open source software” versus “free software”. If you read OSI’s definition of “open source software” (http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.php), you’ll find it’s quite similar to GNU’s definition of free software (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html)
According to GNU, open source software is “software for which the source code is freely and publicly available, though the specific licensing agreements vary as to what one is allowed to do with that code.” (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-for-freedom.html)
So, according to GNU, Java is open source software. I’m certainly no fan of GNU’s semantics, but in this case they’re far more sensible than OSI’s.
“Can you point to an implementation which isn’t a fork of Sun’s original code which passes all the tests contained in the Java TCK? As far as I’ve ever heard none exist…”
Look a little harder. This article is from two years ago. Since that time, HP and Oracle have completed J2EE (yes, enterprise edition) compliant versions, as well as IBM always having a presence.
http://news.com.com/2100-1001-825483.html
If you look at IBM’s site, they have their implementation of 1.3.1. and 1.4.1 available for Linux, AIX, OS/2, etc.
Seems to me that Sun could open the testsuites to allow open source version of Java to be validated without jumping over the various legal hurdles currently in that path.
Would show a commitment without diluting the value of their implementation.
HP and Oracle have completed J2EE (yes, enterprise edition) complicant versions, as well as IBM always having a presence
While the Enterprise Edition components are all vendor specific, the underlying JREs of each Java platform are all forks of Sun’s original code, but have simply been vendor optimized. Apple did the same thing for OS X, and even managed to add some nifty features like VM sharing. Bascule is right about derivatives of the Sun JRE being the only ones which have successfully passed the Java TCK. Clean room JRE implementations like Kaffe don’t even come close.
In the open source world, the equivalent projects would be something like JBoss or Apache Geronimo. Obviously neither of these projects is interested in undertaking a task so ridiculously complex as implementing their own JRE.
“It absolutely floors me that the open source community, which is supposed to have the one true development method continues to bitch and moan that they cannot have an implementation financed, debugging, QAed, and delivered to them on their doorstep instead of uniting behind one of the handful of current open source alternatives?”
Oh now that’s funny! Since when has anyone in the open source community expected an already financed, debugged & QAed implementation delivered to their doorstep? Was it when the community did the debugging and QAed XFree86? Oh I know, maybe it was when the community did the debugging and QAed OpenOffice? Oh wait, that’s not right. That is not how it works at all, is it? Oh wait, I know. Perhaps you mean when Sun expected a Unix desktop “implementation financed, debugging, QAed, and delivered to them on their doorstep” and found Gnome? I mean, after all, CDE was certainly modern enough that they had no need for Gnome, right?
Here’s the deal. Sun is no more a friend of the open source community than IBM is. Just because the interests of the corporations presently match the interests of OSS, does not a friend make.
Sun Java & OpenOffice had the same goal underneath, which was to throw a monkey wrench in Microsoft’s plans. By releasing OpenOffice as open source, Sun hoped to spur the commoditization of office software, thus blunting Microsoft’s grip on that market. A few years have passed since OpenOffice was released as open source, and what has happened since? You find governments around the world ditching Microsoft Office and using OpenOffice, which is just what Sun originally wanted. Did you also notice that Sun DOES NOT HAVE TO PAY A BOATLOAD of developers to further develop OpenOffice now that it is open source? Sun killed two birds with one stone, flipping off Microsoft and avoiding development costs on OpenOffice at the same time. Oh wait, Sun killed three birds with that move, since businesses can now purchase support for OpenOffice from Sun, as well. This means releasing OpenOffice has been a roaring success for Sun. But let’s not forget Sun’s underlying motivations here. Sun has not done these things so they can sing kumbaya with OSS.
Sun released Java for similar purposes. The whole point of Java was to have a language that was write once, run anywhere, as opposed to the Microsoft way of, right once and run it anywhere on Windows only. Sun kept the licensing loose so that Java would become pervasive, which it did, as businesses put Java to good use in droves. Microsoft saw the threat of Java as being so great towards their monopoly that they bastardized it, and were penalized in the courts for it. So again, with Java, Sun succeeded in their goals against Microsoft.
Some say now it was absolutely necessary that Sun had control over Java in those days, or else Microsoft would have been free to hijack it as they did and Sun would have had no recourse.
“THERE ARE DOZENS OF IMPLEMENTATIONS OF JAVA ALREADY. Just because those available open source ones happen to be pieces of shit is no reason to clamor for Sun to open theirs.”
Oh, I get it now. You think this is about Java. That explains everything. Let’s see. How many years are left until Longhorn? You do know that the whole point of .NET is to be a clone of Java, don’t you? What happens when Longhorn is released and everyone starts coding in .NET, instead of Java, due to the extremely large market share Microsoft has? What happens to Java then? What if, the time to strike .NET is while it is still in the crib? What can Sun do now, while the fire is hot, to make Java more pervasive NOW? Do you think if they released Java as open source they can save development costs as they did with OpenOffice? Or perhaps Sun should just leave Java as it is and let it be forgotten when Longhorn gets here and shoulder the development costs all by themselves, until that happens? Don’t forget, the open source community has been working on implementing .NET for some time now in Mono. Therefore OSS will not be required to be beholden to Java, nor will the users of Longhorn.
So who needs who more here? Does Sun need OSS more, or does OSS need Sun more? Think about it.
“Oh now that’s funny! Since when has anyone in the open source community expected an already financed, debugged & QAed implementation delivered to their doorstep? Was it when the community did the debugging and QAed XFree86? Oh I know, maybe it was when the community did the debugging and QAed OpenOffice?”
I am sorry if I wasn’t clear the first time, but RIGHT NOW THEY ARE ASKING FOR A FINANCED, COMPLETE, DEBUGGED, QAED VERSION OF JAVA INSTEAD OF BUILDING ONE THEMSELVES FROM SCRATCH. You make my point in the case of OpenOffice! Sun already had done the vast majority of the work on OpenOffice (it was called StarOffice 5) and tossed it to the Open Source community like a leftover bone. Where was the Open Source community rising to the challenge and building the entire system from the ground up?
“Did you also notice that Sun DOES NOT HAVE TO PAY A BOATLOAD of developers to further develop OpenOffice now that it is open source? ”
Well, sorry to point this out but, StarOffice 7 is still a commercial product, and is part of the Java Desktop system, and is developed internally by Sun, still. Open Office is a fork off the 5.x codebase. Sun basically sloughed off the mortal coil onto the community and charged ahead with development on new (and much improved) features and better compatibility. Saved development costs by Open Sourcing? Not quite.
“Do you think if they released Java as open source they can save development costs as they did with OpenOffice? Or perhaps Sun should just leave Java as it is and let it be forgotten when Longhorn gets here and shoulder the development costs all by themselves, until that happens? ”
I am starting to see a pattern and that’s that you’re not listening to what I have to say, which is unfortunate. I made this point already 3 times.
A.) No I don’t believe that Sun will save development costs by Open Sourcing, but I think they stand to lose a lot of revenue from J2EE.
B. ) Java will not be forgotten. It has the momentum to carry on for decades. Did Java kill C++? Java is a bigger deal on UNIX servers for Sun than for desktop dolts.
C. ) I think Open Sourcing Sun’s implementation will contribute to quality death spiral, lead to incompatibilities, and be detrimental to the platform in the long run.
D. ) Sun doesn’t control Java.
“So who needs who more here? Does Sun need OSS more, or does OSS need Sun more? Think about it. ”
It seems to me the OSS community has been bitching, moaning, and crying like a bunch of babies until they get thrown some scraps by big companies like IBM, HP, and Sun.
You have NO IDEA what it costs to build and maintain a platform like Java. That kind of manpower is not something you drop lightly. I personally don’t believe that the Open Source community could do remotely as well as Sun (having seen it from the inside), and I think its a bit of stretch to suggest that overnight the manpower needed is going to happily spring up out of the Open Source community and heed the call.
I don’t think it is all that important that Sun open-source their SDK, but I would like for it to be redistributable in binary form (just J2SE). It is just stupid that I have to download the runtime from Sun after installing just about any Linux (at least Libranet has a script that does this).
What I would really like to see is IBM open source a whole Java SDK (since Sun just isn’t going to do it). They are really the only other company that has the resources to do this. Like it or not, a Java SDK/runtime takes a lot of reasources to write and money to certify. The current open-source Java initiatives just aren’t getting anywhere (still hopelessly out-of-date and incomplete).
Right now, Linux really isn’t very useful as a general application development platform (i.e. non-server applications) on Linux. Its pretty strange that C#/.Net is getting traction on Linux while Java flounders. I find this really sad since I LOVE the simplicity of the Java language and find C# kinda “messy” (just an opinion). I am, however, worried about possible intellectual property issues with C#/.Net.
Wow, so many people are missing the point on this one. The reason it is important to open source java is that if they do it it has the possiblity to become ubiquitous before .NET traps us in Microsoft’s web. This doesn’t bother MS supporters/users but it has a big impact on the rest of us. If their (MS) past is any indication of their future, the rest of us will be locked out. (Mono is not the answer, MS still has some important features under wraps).
Contrary to what Phipps says java is not everywhere. Who cares if a few sites use java applets and a couple of programs are written in java. It has nowhere near the penetration that .NET is planning.
Phipps’ assertion that SUN contributed more to Open Source than anyone else is assinine. They have been flip flopping on Linux for years now. Until very recently they haven’t had a real strategy for Linux at all. What else have they done other than release Star Office? IBM has certainly done more for Open Source. They’ve been fully behind Linux for longer and they have contributed a great deal of code to Linux.
Then there is this:
The question he (ESR) should really be asking is why has no-one else offered to create an Open Source version of Java. Maybe because it’s on the ‘too hard’ list.
Uhhh. What about Kaffe and others? It has been done before. The problem is interoperability and lack of features. Open Source java would fix that in a hurry. What’s the point of holding the language back? Why not let the users decide where it goes? The present alternatives will never work out as long as the specification changes and they are left one step behind.
“Sun already had done the vast majority of the work on OpenOffice (it was called StarOffice 5) and tossed it to the Open Source community like a leftover bone.”
You mean Sun acquired a leftover bone, even to the point of not realizing at first they could grow a business with it.
“Where was the Open Source community rising to the challenge and building the entire system from the ground up?”
OH, I don’t know, maybe building the entire Sun desktop called GNOME, which beautifullly replaces the antiquated CDE?
“Saved development costs by Open Sourcing? Not quite.”
Oh please. StarOffice 5.2 was free. Sun was giving it away and almost missed the boat, or should I say, almost missed yet another boat, on that one. They FINALLY realized businesses would pay them for support if they would only start charging for it and charging for support. THAT is when they released OpenOffice to the community, not to mention the world. So of course Sun pays for development of StarOffice, since they sell it. But I don’t recall mentioning anything about StarOffice in my original post, since StarOffice != OpenOffice, so what was your point again?
“It seems to me the OSS community has been bitching, moaning, and crying like a bunch of babies until they get thrown some scraps by big companies like IBM, HP, and Sun.”
HAHAHA! Yeah, because the big companies aren’t using anything from open source, are they? You act as if all the open source community does is make demands, and these poor companies are being taken for a ride. Those companies are leveraging the hell out of the technologies that spring out of open source and turning a profit on the services sold based on open source. Or did I misread and it turns out Sun is not shipping a Linux desktop, enabled with GPL and LPGL libraries? Why the attitude that the OSS relationship with companies is a one way street with OSS always making demands? These companies sure don’t seem to have a problem availing themselves of the technologies available in open source.
“A.) No I don’t believe that Sun will save development costs by Open Sourcing, but I think they stand to lose a lot of revenue from J2EE.”
Oh you mean like how Redhat is losing revenue due to 183 other Linux distributions that don’t have the Redhat name on them? People would rather buy a well-known brand, not necessarily any product, is all that I am suggesting. Everyone knows Sun invented Java and no one will ever forget that, no matter what happens to Java.
“B. ) Java will not be forgotten. It has the momentum to carry on for decades. Did Java kill C++? Java is a bigger deal on UNIX servers for Sun than for desktop dolts. ”
Whether Java is forgotten or not, it will still face competition from .NET. There is a limited amount of time Sun has to extend the reach of Java as far as they possibly can.
C. ) I think Open Sourcing Sun’s implementation will contribute to quality death spiral, lead to incompatibilities, and be detrimental to the platform in the long run.
Yeah, after all, that is what happened with Apache, Netscape/Mozilla, Perl, Python and of course, Gnome, which is why Sun would not dream of shipping it in their products, given the low-quality death spirals found in these products, not to mention the incompatibilities found in all the different implementations of Python, Perl and the Linux kernel, for that matter.
“D. ) Sun doesn’t control Java.”
They must, or the discussion about Sun releasing it as open source would not be happening.
“I personally don’t believe that the Open Source community could do remotely as well as Sun (having seen it from the inside), and I think its a bit of stretch to suggest that overnight the manpower needed is going to happily spring up out of the Open Source community and heed the call. ”
You mean in the way no has stepped forward to heed the call of the XFree debacle? You are entitled to your opinion.
wake up people.
if sun does ‘free’ ‘your’ java. other notorious companies like ms will come in and mess up the whole technology.
the best case for technology is freedom
the worst case for technology is freedom
Funny calling .doc a standard, I dont remember MS giving the source out. I have download the source and compiled it. When did MS give out the file format much less the source for word? And not comments about a college or univeristy. Any person can download and hack at the java source. Tell me that you can do that with word and you will have my vote.
There is not 1 application written in Java that I use, I don’t know any close friend or relative that uses one.
I don’t feel like writing a program in Java, Java seems like a dinosaur compared to Ruby, Perl or Python.
I am sure that Java has its place in Enterprise development, and that it is an improvement upon using C++. But for me Java is just obsolete.
I totally disaggree to Phipps.
Phipps says, that everyone can crate an Java 1.5.
But this is so hard, like recreating Windows XP.
If Microsoft gives the complete API of WinXP open, do you say thet it is an System with Open Standards, which everybody can recreate?
For some years RedHat have talked with Sun, because they wanted to create an OpenSource Java2 with Suns help in backgroud. But Sun spurned.
Sun says that the eclipse project, is too much dominated by IBM. And IBM now goes more in backround. Eclipse is now a community of a lot of companies.
But why see Sun a problem in an IBM dominated eclipse? Eclipse is OpenSource – Java isn’t.
IBM let lose their domination in eclipse. But Sun keep their domination in Java. Sun have still a special position in the JCP. And they are the only one which have created a Java2. All other Java2s (IBMs Java, Blackdowns Java, etc) are only based on Suns Java. And so, the license can not be more free then Suns Java license.
In point of Java, Sun isn’t better then Microsoft.
Knut
ESR asked. Sun answered. End of story.