JBoss Inc’s chief executive is urging Sun Microsystems Inc to resist pressure from IBM to open source Java, a move viewed by some as an attempt by IBM to take control of Java. Mark Fleury, whose organization ships the eponymous open source J2EE application server, spoke-out against releasing Java code saying Sun’s control of Java, with certification, had helped Java’s success.
Open Source CEO Against Opening Java Language to Community
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Although I see why Sun might not want to entirly open source it, it seems to me that there can be some sort of compromise, like duel licensing or somthing. I really like Java and I really like OSS, though, so I must admit that open sourcing Java does sound attractive. Would probably lead to increased use of Java in OSS, which would be a good thing. Should be interesting to see what, if anything, happens with this idea.
The entire world would be better off if Java were open sourced. Today the J2EE world is a story of vendor lock in, not “magic portability”. Open source Java would take control away from Sun and their pet interests and move a greater degree of control to the customer base.
Note IBM is talking about moving Java to “open source”, not “IBM Community Process”. It is disengenuous to discredit IBM and their motives at this early point in the process.
Unless Sun’s mission is to cripple the IT world, there is no reason for them to maintain total control over Java. Closed standards only lead to higher complexity and higher costs for everyone involved — mostly the customers.
JBOSS, with recent venture funding, is on an IPO track. For that to happen with the greatest confidence, they want zero competition. For JBOSS, if Java were open source, it would lower the bar to competition.
In short, the CEO of JBOSS is merely protecting his IPO path, not looking at the best interests of customers.
Yup. Fleury’s days are numbered.
He knows that when Apache Geronimo is released, most of his revenue will be flushed down the toliet.
I hope they open up all of it so that other os’s could actualy add a fully integreated java environment, like mac has, except one that has 100% compatibility. Kaffe doesn’t cut it yet.
Just think if Syllable or SkyOS could run 99% of java apps :-D. Suwweeet! Limewire here we come!
a move viewed by some as an attempt by IBM to take control of Java.
Yeah, IBM is going to steal Java like they stole Linux.
I wonder who actually believes IBM is capable of taking over control of Java. Anyone willing to stake their professional reputation on such a retarded blanket statement?
That’s like saying SCO really does own the copyright to the Linux kernel, because we heard it somewhere on the net, so it must be true.
I know I’ve been smoking a lot of Cannabis, but some of these articles make me wonder about the general sanity of technology professional everywhere.
Me thinks yer all paranoid and retarded.
What if IBM were to indirectly take control of Java? Maybe they’d DO something with it instead of letting it stagnate while giving it a pretty view of the exponential growth of .NET. Really, the only way java can go is up.
As stated, he is just trying to protect his bottom line. FUD is such a great and wonderful tool…you really need no basis in reality for it to work wonders.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with them merely dual-licensing it the way they dual license OpenOffice.
Please explain it. I’ve asked this numerous times already and it was never explained. SO i ask it again. If that remains unargumented i remain taking that argument as FUD like i now do. Even some SUN guy posted here defending Java, saying there’s a lot of competition on Java. I ask you again: “How could IBM exploit a GPLed Java?”
GPLed Java
LGPL would be a better choice not bsd or gpl
I dont believe Java needs to be open sourced for any reason. Javas licensing only has one stipulation, compliance. Open Sourcing Java would do nothing but hinder Java useless because then Microsoft would have its own version, Sun would have theirs and IBM would have theirs and there would be no stipulation in place to make sure that the standard was preserved and we would have a bunch of incompatible Java programs out there and we would have to have different VM’s to install to make sure we were compatible with everything. GPLing Java would do nothing but cause a big headache. Unlike Eric Raymond I do not believe Open Source is the cure all/save all, Open Source has its place in the industry but I feel that if Sun doesnt want to Open Source Java they shouldnt have to or be pressured to do so.
Why doesn’t IBM open source their own implementation of Java?
IBM is trying to screw sun over. since they are buddy buddy with the OS community now they think they can hurt sun–thats the word from inside sun. if java wasn’t with sun. Sun software would be dead.
Also- it is important to remember that wide adoption of open source technology has not been possible without commercial companies. I personally think it will turn into relationship like “Zend is to PHP” as “Sun is to Java”
well, sun invented java and make it. They maintain it. Why fund someone else when they will maintain it and fund it?
Why would sun open source Java? they invented it. they made it. they develope it. It’s like telling me that if i had a really successful business that made alot of profit around one platform that i should just give it away.
Makes no sense. Sun is making the sensible business decision.
>Why doesn’t IBM open source their own implementation of Java?
I’ve read that IBM’s license with Sun won’t let them do that. They need Sun’s permission.
>Open Sourcing Java would do nothing but hinder Java >useless because then Microsoft would have its own version, >Sun would have theirs and IBM would have theirs
…
> we would have a bunch of incompatible Java programs out there
that is not true…the vendors know that if they create their own versions of java, it would do nothing but hurt their product, since the customers would opt for alternatives.
the linux kernel is GPL’ed, yet the kernels are stil compatible…on the other hand, unix was closed source and look what happened to it… when a piece of code is GPL’ed, it is very hard for one vendor to create their own version AND keep their secret from their competitors. other ppl can simply grab their pathes and apply to their own code, like suse and redhat have been doing to each other…
Ray
Sun is just shooting themselves in the foot by not opening Java. I recently decided that I was going to learn either java or c#, and I ended up going with c# due mainly to the fact that mono is opensource and java is not. I have a feeling more and more people are going to start leaning away from Java, because while Java remains closed source other languages just seem to have a brighter future.
How about the invention of light? What if that was to remain secret and the method a light works is proprietary; only available to the inventor (who is now dead)? The invention of C? What if C was not documented at all, and only binaries would exist? Only a compiler to 2 persons; the inventors?
If all inventions should be controlled by their inventors that wouldn’t lead to a progressive world, would it?
So what if some GPL Java is _improved_. The improvements are wide open to anyone. Including SUN. If it improves the language, then that’s only a Good Thing in contrast to the control by SUN where they decide what happens to the language. Right?
Look at how OpenBSD development team improved C for example. That wasn’t a standard either, but it lead to more secure C programming.
Basically Sun got $2 billion to sign their name on the death warrant for Java.
With .NET now out of any sort of patent/IP issues with Java, there is nothing stopping Microsoft from completely crushing Sun and Java.
As Sun is being completely suicidal regarding Java and not opening it up and making it a real open standard, Microsoft must be laughing. It takes Microsoft a whole two months to make $2 billion in *pure cash profit*.
Microsoft knows that Sun will do nothing intelligent with the $2 billion and that as long as Sun keeps Java under their dumb little thumb, Java is going nowhere.
The fact that IBM is trying to save Sun for the betterment of the IT world and is getting criticized for it is beyond me. Sun deserves nothing but ridicule and scorn for their immense stupidity. IBM deserves praise for going into a tough situation with a stubborn donkey of a company and trying to do the good thing. Java would have never even gotten off the ground without IBM. It is just so stupid to attack IBM for trying to make Java more popular, more open, and more successful.
> nstead of letting it stagnate while giving it a pretty view of the exponential growth of .NET.
What exponential growth of .NET are you bleating about? Adoption .NET especially in enterprise has been lacklustre at best. VB programmers will be struggling for years with the paradigm shift introduced by .NET before they finally get it. J2EE is well ahead of .NET in all departments and I don’t forsee it changing — J2EE has got far more momentum behind it.
IBM’s pressure on Sun to open source Java IS a ploy to steal the momentum and to play the OSS hero, it is nothing more than anothy wily PR move that IBM became so good at. If IBM wanted the open-source Java runtime so badly there is absolutely nothing stopping them from implementing one themselves, all they need to do pick up the tab and develop one. As for all the heresy surrounding JCP, IBM has already got a very significant vote on what direction Java should move feature-wise. I see absolutely no point of open sourcing Java unless of course it is a PR move by IBM to confuse as many people as possible and make the competitor (Sun) look bad.
your comment about what if they invented light is just stupid. this is not about basic inventions. your just biased.
take a look at linux today. hundreds of distros and most of them arent compatible with each other.
atleast with java being with sun there is no problem.
I e-mailed sun and told them to donate java to an organization and include an open source license that denys forking. they said the’d think about it.
THE GPL IS NOT THE ANSWER. they need to create their own license..
however like said before. sun makes alot of money on Java so why give something away you dont make money off of. sheesh they arent communist they’re capitolists
This guy obviously shows that he does not give a damn about OSS. He is in to make $$$, and keep OSS competition away from his domain. Now, who do you trust?! No matter how you slice it, everything is about power and greed. I go for open source as oppose to what one crappy CEO says any day of the week.
It’s all about not wanting to give up control. The JBoss guy is afraid that something better will come around and he’ll have to recode to a moving target. Sun will never make money off of Java so I don’t know what their stake in it is.
I used to think that it didn’t really matter if Sun gave up control of Java or not. I’ve changed my mind. Java development is too stagant. If it wasn’t for .NET, Java would still be languishing. Who cares if it forks. The cream will rise to the top. A de-facto standard will come out of it. And people are able to choose whatever flavor they want. Sun just needs to get it throught their head that Java will never be big on the windows desktop. They seem to be clinging to the belief that they have a shot.
Why would sun open source Java? they invented it. they made it. they develope it. It’s like telling me that if i had a really successful business that made alot of profit around one platform that i should just give it away.
You don’t get it. Sun will never make money off of Java. If Sun is around for another 100 years they won’t recoup the development costs of Java…ever!
I’ve always had this question in my mind: What exactly could you open source in Java?
1. The API? No. The API is not source code.
2. The JLS? No. The language guideline is not source code.
3. The JVMS? No. the VM guideline is not source code.
4. The source code for the class files in the Java library? No. The source is already available and bundled with the SDK.
5. The source code for Sun’s VM? Maybe. But making it open source doesn’t achieve anything for the programmer except possibly allowing for speed optimizations.
So what exactly does everyone mean to “open source” Java?
4. The source code for the class files in the Java library? No. The source is already available and bundled with the SDK.
Just because the source is available, doesn’t mean it is Open Source. And it isn’t. The licence prohibits several things.
Open Source Java means mainly open source the class libraries. IBM cannot do it for their own implementation, because they simply DO NOT HAVE IT. The license most of the class libraries from SUN (Swing and others).
As for the VM, it would be nice, but it is not needed. There are already far more VMs than the world needs, including Open Source ones.
“your comment about what if they invented light is just stupid. this is not about basic inventions. your just biased.”
So are you and your mother. Everyone is biased. Great news, isn’t it? Java is pretty much a “basic invention” because so many software is dependant on it. Okay it isn’t mainstream currently, like C and C++ is, but it could become.
“take a look at linux today. hundreds of distros and most of them arent compatible with each other.”
They all go their own way, but they’re still compatible because we have the source.
“atleast with java being with sun there is no problem.”
Actually there is; lots of OSes aren’t able to implement Java in their OS because there’s no Java available. They can’t port it. They have to program their own. This stalls innovation.
“I e-mailed sun and told them to donate java to an organization and include an open source license that denys forking. they said the’d think about it.
THE GPL IS NOT THE ANSWER. they need to create their own license..”
WHY ISN’T IT THE ANSWER. Where is the argument.
“however like said before. sun makes alot of money on Java so why give something away you dont make money off of. sheesh they arent communist they’re capitolists”
Oh. If that is true why are they considering to open it up?
> IBM cannot do it for their own implementation, because they simply DO NOT HAVE IT.
Wrong. IBM has their own implementation of Java runtime totally independent of Sun’s.
“What exponential growth of .NET are you bleating about?
Like, ah, I dunno what that fella is talking about, but I’ve seen alot of desktop programmers start picking up C# over Java – they dig it, because its like Java, with all the nice-nice, except not, you know; its got all that native look-and-feel stuff down because Windows Forms is native. They don’t care too much about crossplatform anything; they just want something that works. Mono and DotGNU are just bonuses for them. I know of a few Linux hackers that are playing with Mono and having a ball. Mono or DotGNU will probably keep servers running Linux, though; all the core technologies are in place, ECMA’d, so there’d be no reason to use any Longhorn specific features on the server-side.
I think, you know, its gonna be an inevitably that .NETisms starts to crawl, you know, like Zerg Creep, everywhere else, once Longhorn ships and developers become more comfortable with the API.
And, you know, there’s only one way to destroy Zerg Creep.
TANK RUSH!
Yo, ah, somebody a rock-remix of “Paint it black.”
“So what exactly does everyone mean to “open source” Java?”
“Let us freely tweak the source of the virtual machine.”
Why start over? You know, with the source for the virtual machine, it could be tweaked and made more efficient, instead of having to do a Kaffe or something and start over from scratch, which, you know, its reinventing the wheel, ‘specially if the default VM only need a few “tweaks.” Also, the thing could probably do with some serious internal hacking. Java’s getting too big for the virtual machine its using, you know? I mean, Fake Generics. What the hell is with that, man? Fake Generics. Like, I thought the only point of generics was for the crazy speed-boost, no need to box/unbox because you know the input/output. The hell, man?!
“Let us freely enhance the Java libraries.”
You know, this, I think, this is a good one. Sun has proven pretty stagnant, you know, they’ve only kicked it into high-gear because of .NET’s inevitability, so, you know, they gotta rock back as hard as they can. This won’t be introducing any weird compatability problems, courtesy of object oriented programming – as long as the return type is the same, or the function does as expected, then you can go to town on the internals and optimize till the cows come home.
Only problem is, Java’s liscense for the libraries are “look, don’t touch”-esque, so, you know, you can’t just sight a bug, jump right in and fix it – you gotta wade through the JCP. I’ve talked to other Java developers, and most of the time its nothing but profanities when I mention the Java Community Process. Probably because their favorite bug hasn’t been fixed. Like, whatever. I’m sure numerous bugs would be cleaned up simply by developers who had “pet peeves” with’em.
“Let us freely tweak the Java language.”
Personally, I suppose they want to clean it up a bit, steal some of the C#isms that they like and Java’s missing, them mush them together into a big puddle of love. This, I gotta say, seems like no biggie to me – as long as it all compiles to JVM compatiable bytecode, there’s no compatability problems, unless you happen to be, like, running some kind of crazy .java file interpretor. I mean, as long as it conforms to the bytecode spec, why not tweak the language to make it better? It’ll still keep that sweet-sweet ass “WORA” Sun is always talking about, and you know, it eases the mind-numbing strain on developers.
“Let us murderize Swing.”
Alright, that one, you know, was just mine. But goddamn, I hate Swing for alot of different reasons. C’mon, Sun, why’d you go and staginate on the GUI like that for?! You reached too far into the server-side market, man, and now .NET is gonna crawl – CREEP – over the desktop market, and you know, after that, there’s only one other place to go…
Tangent:
Sun says, “Native look and feel.”
My ass, man! I can put on a bearskin cap and pull my boxers up to my nipples but that doesn’t make me a damn eskimo.
I’m partial to SWT, myself.
Just because the source is available, doesn’t mean it is Open Source. And it isn’t. The licence prohibits several things.
Open Source Java means mainly open source the class libraries.
What exactly would open sourcing the libraries amount to? The libraries have already been written and any modifications would only either fix bugs or provide optimizations. But that doesn’t solve stagnation nor allow for innovation.
If open sourcing calls for the ability to add new files to the library freely, then that’s not an open source issue, but a collaboration issue. It means you want Sun to use the Java name for any new API’s you propose and to make it distributable on Sun’s website. IMO, I don’t think open sourcing solves the collaboration issue as open sourcing doesn’t deal with branding and hosting; it only deals with having unrestricted access to source code. On the other hand, if you wanted to add to the library unoffically, then everyone has access to the extension facility in Java.
“Let us freely tweak the source of the virtual machine.”
I’m being picky here, but the source for Sun’s VM is not part of Java. Java only contains a specification for every VM to follow. If we wanted access to source code then wouldn’t we want access to Microsoft’s VM which, from benchmark tests, is much faster than Sun’s VM? All we would need to do is to strip out the non-compatible parts and then we’d have a fast VM. Also, Apple controls access to the VM on MacOS X, would we require Apple to release their source code?
“Let us freely tweak the Java language.”
In my interpretation, Open Source deals with source code only. Being able to change language specifications is not entailed by an Open Source license because the specification is not code.