Early Apple engineer Andy Hertzfeld chronicled his tales from the trenches on his website, Folklore.org, and has now compiled them into an illustrated coffee table book called Revolution in the Valley: The Insanely Great Story of How the Mac Was Made. There’s an interview with Hertzfeld at Wired.
It should be a very nice book. I just ordered it now !
Paul Graham (of Lisp fame) has an interesting book out called “Hacker and Painters”. Chapter 2 is available online over at O’Reilly. He gives some interesting philosophy on programming from the sample chapter that I read. He pulles no punches, saying how he disdains the term computer science, and how computer scientists are really disguised mathematicians. He goes on to describe how hackers are really more like painters and how programming is messy and should be.
dude, while I respect the man (LISP rocks) he is so wrong about Computer Scientists. saying a CS is a Mathematician in disguise is as dumb as saying a physicist is a mathematician in disguise.
mathematicians do mathematical research with no application in mind except perhaps for other mathematical problems.
in the early days there was a lot of cross over between the fields because so much mathematics is useful in computer science, but just like in Physics and Chemistry, CS is APPLIED mathematics.
there is a reason that for a computer science degree the most math one must know is Calculus and Linear Algebra. after that, anything the students learn might be things like mathematical proof, but only in an applied way, not in a formal way as a mathematician must know it.
I am nearly finished with my double major in Computer Science and Mathematics. the differences between the fields are very noticeable and I do not consider CSs to be any more mathematicians than physicists.
Did you read the sample chapter 2 over at O’Reilly? And if mathematicians do research with no applications in mind then why do mathematicians get degrees in Applied Math?
…dusted nasty keyboards and cheap mice
Hehe, don’t macs still ship with one mouse button on insistance of the Reality Distortion Field generator, Jobs?
Because it is the name of a graduate degree meant for people in mathematical sciences for use in the commercial world. Applied Math degrees are not for studying the science of mathematics, which is what a mathematician does.
“Hehe, don’t macs still ship with one mouse button on insistance of the Reality Distortion Field generator, Jobs?”
and? all you need is one mouse button to get anything done in OS X. if you feel more comfortable with 2 buttons, get another mouse, I did.
oh, and the one button mouse is hardly cheap, it is made of polycarbonate plastic.
Well, It’s not a game station for sure and apple users are not like linux freaks with a half open case, poorly patched up computer with dusted nasty keyboards and cheap mice.
Hey! I may run Linux, but I have only the best peripheralage! (Go Logitech)
That buttonless mouse is just the worst. The circular one can be quite annoying after a lot of use. Thankfully three button mice work well in OS X.
Hey! I may run Linux, but I have only the best peripheralage! (Go Logitech)
But.. do you have neon and a funny little fan switch?
Apple hasn’t been really “cool” in over a decade … and I’ll pimp-slap anyone who mentions the iPod cuz that whole scene got corny a long time ago
OS X, beautiful hardware design, minimalistic marketing and stores, iTunes Music Store, real plug and play, a top 10 super computer, 30″ display, Pixar, Spotlight (and hiring Dominic Giampaolo in general), rendezvous, 802.11b/g (they were all over that real early with AirPort), iMac G5, Motion, and cutting a deal with Oracle.
most of that is just over the past couple years, but its still a lot of stuff. if you can’t find something in that list that’s cool (in computer world view), then maybe its time i hang up my keyboard. Apple’s a rockstar compared to any company in its marketplace (Sun, SGI, Microsoft, HP, Dell, etc.).
I hate hearing that “Oh, your Mac only ships with a one button mouse” crap.
Apple ships with a one-button mouse because they have spent a great deal of money on usability studies that show 90% of the computer using public only needs one button.
People here and on other highly technical sites prefer multi-button mice… fine, go buy one and get as many buttons as you want.
Answer this question. Of those of you out there who have helped non-techy friends and family, when you explain about right-clicking, how often do you then hear fom the person you are helping… “Whcih one do I press now, right or left?” The added button oftens just adds to their confusion about using the OS.
Answer this question. Of those of you out there who have helped non-techy friends and family, when you explain about right-clicking, how often do you then hear fom the person you are helping… “Whcih one do I press now, right or left?” The added button oftens just adds to their confusion about using the OS.
Hehe, in your attempt to be a one mouse button apologist, I think you just called Mac users stupid.
>Hehe, in your attempt to be a one mouse button apologist,
>I think you just called Mac users stupid.
This is a sample of absurd attitude of arrogant techies, who
think everybody who is not interested in computers is stupid. I have a friend who is a composer, he is so damn smarter than most of the techi friends that I have and yes he also got confused about which mouse button to click when. The fact that we have got used to all these doesn’t mean that they are obvious.
“Apple hasn’t been really “cool” in over a decade … and I’ll pimp-slap anyone who mentions the iPod cuz that whole scene got corny a long time ago”
alright, what’s a ‘pimp-slap’ and how does if differ from other slaps (b*tch, punk, etc..)?
Hehe, in your attempt to be a one mouse button apologist, I think you just called Mac users stupid.
No, but the simple fact of the matter is that users of any operating system are sometimes not going to be computer savvy. They’re not always going to pick up on things quickly.
Apple has chosen the right approach. They allow developers an easy way for their apps to take advantage of multiple mice, but for the vast majority of apps (there might be one or two which require multiple buttons) require that all features be available with a single button.
If Apple shipped a two/three/four/57 button mouse standard, developers would take such for granted, as they have with Windows systems. The result is a base of applications with features that require mastery of multi-button mice.
Apple hasn’t hindered application developers if they want to provide conveniences for users of multi-button mice, but they’ve maintained an environment which encourages developers to make their applications accessible to single-button mouse users. This makes it easier for casual non-savvy users to “discover” new features via explicit menus rather than having them “hidden” in contextual menus.
Of course, this still comes from people thinking of computer use in a rather procedural way. “Select this, then go over here and tell the program to do this to it.” A more object-oriented view would favor contextual menus, but look at how long it’s taken for object-orientation to catch on among even the technically savvy.
Hehe, don’t macs still ship with one mouse button on insistance of the Reality Distortion Field generator, Jobs?
Tell me, do you still use the mouse that shipped with your PC? Didn’t think so. me either, no anyone I know. I’ve got a MX700, before that a wireless Intellimouse.
My mother has three degrees, two with first class honors. She mucks up left and right click all the time. She used to double-click hyperlinks, but thankfully that’s passed.
Matt
Wow check out the SPAG errors in my last post.
Just wanted to add…OS X has inbuilt multibutton support, so it’s simply a matter of plugging in another mouse. No installing generic software “drivers” and no restarting to use the mouse.
Matt
shows how long you have been ignorant of Macs.
Apple has not shipped a mac with a Puck mouse (horrible evil little thing) since 2001.
I have a laptop, and sometimes while staring at the screen and not at the keyboard/touchpad I won’t notice my hand has moved and I’m now clicking the right button when I reach for where I thought the left was.
That said, I’d feel real cramped without a two button mouse. And more cramped without a scroll wheel/button. I’d just factor in that cost to the price of a Mac, I guess.
“alright, what’s a ‘pimp-slap’ and how does if differ from other slaps (b*tch, punk, etc..)?”
I ain’t Iceberg Slim, and I”ve never heard of a “punk slap”, but I’m pretty sure a bitch slap and pimp slap are the same thing.
http://www.playerappreciate.com/HowTo.asp
You get used to it. At first when I switched to a Mac I thought it’d be annoying, but really I almost never have a problem with it. Of course I’ve gotten used to ctrl-clicking to get at contextual menus, but even so, I don’t have to do that because generally everything that’s in a pop-up menu is in a normal menu someplace, too–and that is mostly on account of Apple only ever shipping with single-button mice.
In fact, since I’ve had my PowerBook, I’ve had a couple occasions where I ended up on a x86 laptop here and there fixing something or whatever and I’ll be damned if I’m not constantly clicking the right button by accident because where I think the single click button should be on the track pad, there’s a split. I hate that. A lot. And it even confuses me at first because I’m simply not used to that anymore.
It is simple: people adapt and get used to things like this. It isn’t even worthy of a holy war. I happen to think Apple made the right choice with the single button thing because the barrier of entry for a newbie is less. And, as a tech-savvy programmer-type, I don’t ever feel constrained by the single button. Heck, even at work where I *could* use a multi-button mouse, I’ve got used to one of those optical no-button Apple mice. I just don’t need the multi buttons unless I’m playing some ported windows games which get pretty annoying with only one button (such as Age of Mythology which uses the right button as a quick “walk here” thing). In those cases, I just plug in my regular multi-button mouse at home and run with it.
It really isn’t a big deal and anyone who thinks that the single mouse button is even worthy of this level of complaint has, I think, said more about themselves than about the quality and worth of Apple products and users.
I am not a mac user, and probably never will be (don’t like the designs, and I want to play games. No, my game-consoles are not enough :-))
But I do help my family with their computer questions, and my mother does have a problem with 2 mouse buttons. She knows how to right click, but she doesn’t remember when it is necessary, when to double click or when only to click once, etcetera. She understand the scroll wheel though, and probably can’t live without it.
So, I think the idea is not so bad. except, I don’t believe people like my mother (or other family for that matter) will buy macs though, they go for the cheapest stuff. All mac users I know can get around any kind of computer really well. So maybe Apple caters to the wrong people with the one mouse?
Quick, name the 5 places on the screen that are the easiest to click on.
..
Answer: the corners, and *where your pointer currently is*. Not having a context menu removes one of those 5 points. No easy way to get a menu of frequently used functions without having to aim the mouse at all (unless you hold control, yay. Or buy a two button mouse of course) While we’re at it, does OSX use any of the other 4 points either? Well, no! None of them do anything. At least the menus are at the top of the screen where they are easy to get to. But whoops! KDE can do that too..
“Just goes to show that going to school does not make you smart.”
It’s the other way around, you have to be smart to get into and finish a good school.
It does go to show that being smart (or having a good education) doesn’t make you computer savvy.
Nothing to be condescending about.
Don’t you think it would make good design sense to have at the very least a scroll wheel? I mean I think jobs only cares if it looks cool. The Mac mouse looks nice but when you use it after having a scroll wheel it seems two steps back.
Also a mac purchaser should not have to go and buy another mouse because apple refuses to supply a functional mouse on the grounds that it won’t go well with the rest of computer.
I have heard people defending the single button by saying “you can just shift click”. Why would I want to use two hands when can just right click?
Are useful, but their necessity is somewhat mitigated by the fact that both arrow buttons can be grouped together, meaning very little mouse movement is needed.
Additionally, as previous posts have stated: their inclusion by default would lead developers to create applications dependent on them, which is not a good thing.
It would still mean moving towards the arrow to move the page instead of just scrolling a bit and immediately continuing on the right place.
I know that’s only a small movement, but it would irritate nonetheless, especially after you’ve gotten used to a scrollwheel.
Scrollwheels are also very useful for changing weapons in games.
(sigh)
Is it just that Mac topics bring out a burning need to discuss mice and prices? Every one, no matter what it’s about, has enough people who sidetrack it to oblivion. The other thread talks about 10.3.7, and one of the early posts is a price issue in Italy. Completely irrelevant, totally off topic, but it took over half the thread.
And this one. Most of us know about the single-button mouse and have our own views. We’re unlikely to say “Oh! My iBook really does have just one button. I never noticed, and now feel that I must discard it and all the apps I have paid for, buy a PC and install Linux on it.” Those of us who want a workaround already have a second mouse. The rest of us are happy with one button. Odd how people can make their own minds up about something, isn’t it?
To get back on-topic…
One of the interesting things to come out of this book is the challenging of Jef Raskin’s view of history. I’ve read a fair bit of his comments on the early Mac days, and it really does read like he did most of the software. In fairness, he pioneered the ideas that Xerox PARC took up (his idea for bit-mapped displays using a Quick Draw API was central to the early GUIs) but there were many other people on the Mac project and it’s good to see them recognised in print.
I’ll keep an eye out for this book, but probably not until it hits paperback.
Apple ships with a one-button mouse because they have spent a great deal of money on usability studies that show 90% of the computer using public only needs one button.
That’s probably true if you’re talking about uninitiated computer users. If you’ve never used a computer before, then yeah, I can see how learning a one button mouse could be easier.
The problem is, how many uninitiated computer users are there these days? Most people, and virtualy everyone under 30, is at least a marginally literate user. And they probably gained their experience on a Windows box.
You might as well be telling me how much easier it is to speak Esperanto than English. Technically, it’s probably true, but from a practical perspective, it’s usless to me. I’m already fluent in English, everyone I communicate with on a regular basis speaks English, and if I want to communicate with people on OS News, then I post in English.
Same with the one button mouse. Apple’s usabillity studies may prove that it’s simpler, but a two button mouse is still the lingua franca of personal computing. Just look at how much complaining you get from Windows and Unix/Linux users everytime the subject comes up, and you can see my point. That one button mouse is probably their biggest obstical to winning over a substantial number of potential switchers. I don’t really think it’s that unreasonable to ask Apple to accomodate that reality.
Good call Gary.
also, about Raskin, I think that he is the biggest blowhard there is in the computer industry. people talk about job’s arrogance, but at least job’s has some accomplishments to back him up… half of what Raskin says are lies and distortions and the guy has been pounding so loudly for so long about his weird UI design ideas that some how people think it knows what he is talking about.
umm, I don’t know if you are aware of this or not, but most computer users have no idea of how to use the right mouse button, and most also do not use the scroll wheel. My mom for instance. she has been using computers for 15 years. she used them to prep for classes and things like that. I could not get her to understand what the right mouse button was for or the scroll wheel.
I worked in office support (Government ) and most of those women did not even know they had a right mouse button.
”
You might as well be telling me how much easier it is to speak Esperanto than English. Technically, it’s probably true, but from a practical perspective, it’s usless to me. I’m already fluent in English, everyone I communicate with on a regular basis speaks English, and if I want to communicate with people on OS News, then I post in English. ”
That’s a great analogy, interesting post!
“No thats just takes alot of time and hard work.
Reading books and taking tests for 25% of your life is not what I would call smart. If you can’t figure things out on your own your not even as samrt as my dog.”
So I guess that instead of just taking that course in applied signal processing next term, I should spend the rest of my life trying to replicate the “life works” from the countless scientists that have formed the modern field of EE?? Yeah that would be smart.. everyone just reinvent stuff instead of moving forward!
On the one hand, it is a bit unfair how Macs are slagged off about mice. I consider 5 buttons a minimum and hence wind up buying an aftermarket one for my PC regardless.
On the other hand, 2 and a scrollwheel isn’t too awful, but one button is really a bit useless. There is need to use a right mouse button; say you have a file, and wish to do something with it. How do you choose between open/rename/delete/properties/cut/copy with only the one? It can’t be done, it has to be worked around.
On the other hand… oops, out of hands. Unfortunately when it comes to laptops, both OSX and Windows are teh l0sers for touchpads. In OSX, I’m stuck with a touchpad and one button. In Windows, it’s a touchpad and two buttons. Whereas in Linux, the drivers will let me simulate buttons with 2/3 finger taps, as well as a neat circular scrolling thing.
I haven’t quite figured out how I’m meant to browse the net properly without a middle mouse button (open link in new tab) but it’s a hell of a lot more painful.
And I have yet to figure out why people allegedly find mice so difficult. There are two buttons, if I say “right click”, I mean click the right button. Doesn’t exactly require an engineering degree to figure out…
” I consider 5 buttons a minimum and hence wind up buying an aftermarket one for my PC regardless. ”
All right, now I’m curious. Why is 5 buttons a minimum?
actually, since the desktop has a set of menus all of those functions plus some can be done format the menu system. you you like context menus, then hold down control, which is very natural to do when you are doing a lot of file operations because you have two hands in action most of the time anyway.
the context menu is really a work around for not having a global menu that can be used by the desktop.
“And I have yet to figure out why people allegedly find mice so difficult.”
You haven’t worked in Internet tech support, I take it… There is no “allegedly” about it. They do. Simple as that. *I* don’t… but in general, lots and lots of people do.
“Revolution in the Valley: The Insanely Great Story of How the Mac Was Made”
ick. Does that title make anyone else want to vomit?
Of course, maybe if you went to school and took an English course you’d learn that when you use the word “that’s” as a contraction of “that is” you use an apostrophe between the second ‘t’ and the ‘s’ in order to indiciate the ellipsis (ellipsis being a fancy word which means you left something out). You’d also learn that “your” is the possessive second-person singular or plural pronoun – in other words, it means “owned by you” – while “you’re” is a contract of “you are” (there’s that apostrophe indicating ellipsis once more!) You would also learn that “a” and “lot” are two separate words.
If you’re able to ‘figure out on your own’ such as things as calculus, advanced metaphysics or the growth and collapse of the Japanese bubble economy, good for you! Many people can’t, however, and they get an education in order to learn all these useful things. Studies (performed by other educated people, which I suppose you could see as a conflict of interest, but hey) indicate that such people consistently have happier lives and higher earning potential than people who don’t. But please, don’t let me stop you. I’m sure you’re busy figuring out quantum theory on your own.
After writing all that I realised I was using ‘ellipsis’ incorrectly. Leaving stuff out and replacing it with an apostrophe isn’t actually an ellipsis. There’s another fancy word for it which sadly escapes my memory right now. Ah well, ignore that bit.
to fully stop the mac vs windows (with kde & gnome on the sideline, they can emulate both by setting up the interface properly) discussion is to take a person, put him in front of one of them for a year, doing ordinary tasks. then you put in a habbit override in his brain and put him in front of the second one and let him do the same tasks for a year. then you allow him to evaluate the one that was simplest to use.
why the override? any person that does something will, given time, build up habbits and similar on how to do it (just like we can find our way around the bath in the morning without being fully awake). therefor the platform he have spent the most time useing is the one that he will prefer. any forced change will just lead to resistance. those here that have done the change have for one reason or other wanted to change. why, i cant comment on, but from the posts it ranges from objective technical to very subjective social ones.
and in this day and age where everything is online and files and protocols become more and more standardized, is it realy important what os or platform is used? as long as the person your sending to can read the stuff your sending then it will not matter (alltho that is yet not 100% sure, and never will be until every datafile is wrapped in a binary player/editor. and the security nightmare that a system like that will be is insane!)…
for me personaly a desktop mac is out of the question, for that im to much hardware geek. i love takeing apart and rebuilding computers. but when it comes to laptops you (at the moment) dont realy have that option outside of some barebone systems from acer or something. therefor a laptop mac is just as ok as a laptop x86 running whatever. the question becomes, can it read my files?
what is becomeing interesting tho is that now nvidia is trying to push a system for replacement gpu’s for laptops. and those nice external hardrives (usb and/or firewire) makes the laptop equaly expandable in the storage department as a desktop. then add the evergrowing use of wifi and the need for a desktop system is more or less gone. and now creative is makeing pcmcia soundcards (usb solutions have allready existed for some time). people are getting used to portable devices that one can use everywhere. and now we are getting mobile phone systems that have the bandwidth of weaker dsl connections. so if you store all your data on a external fat formated hardrive it no longer matters what computer you use.
the data is in the end more important then the platform. we have come to worry about data loss, be it the email from a aunt or the latest powerpoint presentation (hmm, yet a app have become a synonym for a task). before the computer revolution it was allmost only a natural disaster or something that would put your entire music collection, family photos and whats not at risk. these days a kid with to much free time and a sugar overload can wipe em in a second. and dont come talking about how your os of choice is safe. like in biology, your a small target. the bugs will go for the target that give them the biggest chance to spread. as soon as your kind become a big target then its a question of time before your platform have the same problems that the biggest platform of today have. yes, currently that platform makes it at times all to easy for them but changes will only slow them down, not stop them compleatly. its just like the discovery of penicilin stopped ordinary illnesses from being deadly. now they are comeing back as the bugs that survives are not sensitive to the drug. its a war, and it will never stop. you may declare neutral but sooner or later you will become a tactical target…
*rant off*
Actually in my post I think the opposite is true. I never insinuated the average computer user is stupid. Quite the opposite, I think that the average reader of sites like OSNews, Slashdot and ITWorld, etc are rather elitist. I include all of us (yes, I think I am a computer elitist) wether we be Windows, OSX or Linux users.
I have been using computers since before there were mice and I have no problem with right-clicking however my uncle who has had a computer only slightly less time than I have does. Hell, he was still asking me how to format floppies under Win95. He is not dumb, he is just an “average” computer user. WE are not.
I would guess that those who post things like “Macs… ick” have never in fact spent any appreciable time using them. Most Mac users however are very familiar with PCs. Please note the use of the word “appreciable” above before posting responses.
“I would guess that those who post things like “Macs… ick” have never in fact spent any appreciable time using them. Most Mac users however are very familiar with PCs. Please note the use of the word “appreciable” above before posting responses.”
This might be true, however it’s double sided thing. Because on one hand, you have drop a grand or so just to be able to use the Mac for that long. Don’t like it? Tough luck you bought it. A bit of a risk. On the other hand, if a user drops a thousand or two on a Mac and decides it’s not worth the money, well now, he doesn’t want to look silly, does he? How many would be willing to admit a rather expensive mistake like that?
It would be nice if the MAC had some decent software and games to play.
Until then, Windows will be the front runner for me.
Tom Chung
IT Analyst
ISES Inc.
your kidding right?
I know a lot of people that piss and moan about expensive electronics that end up sucking (in their opinion)
in fact, I have never seen someone who was embarrassed about complaining up a storm about their purchase.
what, like these:
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/716…
and these:
http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/716…
“WN: What were the reactions from the others?
Hertzfeld: I’ve given the book maybe to nine original Mac team members and it’s been generally very positive. The only real negative reaction I’ve gotten is (from) Jef Raskin. Jef’s recollection from what happened is just different from everybody else’s and my book doesn’t give his version of things. In Jef’s version of things, Jef designed everything, but he just didn’t. My book confronts that. I think he wishes my book didn’t exist.
I have heard people defending the single button by saying “you can just shift click”. Why would I want to use two hands when can just right click?
Because there’s a high probability your other hand is already on the keyboard within easy reach of the control key with your pinkey.
If not, you really do need to get out more..
This might be true, however it’s double sided thing. Because on one hand, you have drop a grand or so just to be able to use the Mac for that long. Don’t like it? Tough luck you bought it. A bit of a risk. On the other hand, if a user drops a thousand or two on a Mac and decides it’s not worth the money, well now, he doesn’t want to look silly, does he? How many would be willing to admit a rather expensive mistake like that?
One thing everyone ignores when making this point is the insane resale value Macs hold far longer than their counterparts. Decide to sell it ? You’ll easily reap back half your purchase cost if not more, depending on how long you wait to sell it. Maybe you didn’t like it but SOMEONE does, and is looking for a good deal, because for the most part these things _last_. (my current machine is 8 years old, has the case-top off so I could wire in extra things, has a cpu upgrade, maxed ram, faster SCSI card/vid card… still going. (wait, did someone say these things weren’t upgradeable? quit smokin’ dat frop, it’s exploded yo’ haid )
Like what apps?
Office, Flash, SQL, what specifically? Check Fink for all your UNIX type apps.
Games? Unreal 2004, World of Warcraft… HalfLife2 and Doom 3 are coming… who cares.
It would be nice if the MAC had some decent software and games to play.
Until then, Windows will be the front runner for me.
I game (3d, roleplay, first-person-shooter, you name it) on my Mac and have for years. Where the heck have you been?
In fact the software argument is LONG dead. The Macintosh currently runs ALL the software.
Not just Mac software, but Windows software, and all the Open-source stuff you can get your hot little hands on thru Fink or Darwinports.
You really need to re-evaluate that statement; you’re more than a few _years_ out of date.
Trying to convince someone to buy an iBook instead of a cheap (in quality sense), expensive, bulky Celeron laptop from a well known PC retailer brand.
> but Macs are expensive
-> Just check out the website, the iBook which features better hardware (both in megahertz and megabytes and quality) is 200$ cheaper, and you can even get a student discount from apple which makes it even cheaper.
> but can I run windows on it ?
-> no you can’t, but you don’t need to, it has it’s own OS suitable for all your needs. You can also emulate windows applications.
> But emulation is slow
-> fast enough for most applications, except games
> But I want to play games
-> most great games nowadays are also coming the market for the same price (Warcraft, Unreal …)
> How about Office, I need to use word and powerpoint
-> it comes with AppleWorks which is a small office suit and
suitable for small stuff, while you can get MS Office for it, 100% compatible with windows (even more functional on Mac)
> But I have to pay for it
-> don’t you have to pay for it if you wnat to get it for windows?
> well, I have already got the CD from a friend of mine. I can use that.
-> But that’s not legal! It’s software piracy.
> *silence*, But you know microsoft sucks , I don’t mind pirating their software.
Unfortunately I have seen the same attitude from many other PC users, even from some big linux and open source advocates
, they secretly have a little partition with an illegal copy of windows, just to be safe and sound for when KOffice crashes or Xine cannot show porn movies encoded in proprietory codecs or when they want to use their webcams or transfer files to their friends but Kopete or Gaim crashes because they are behind a firewall or something and also for playing again illegally pirated games.
Sure PC is a more trivial and cheaper platform for using stolen software.
“Quick, name the 5 places on the screen that are the easiest to click on. ”
WRONG. The four edges of the screen are much easier to hit (their closer and larger). To get exactly in the corner has your mouse travel much longer distances.
Also the screen corners are really hard to reach these days. If you have a high resolution monitor going all the way to the corner is travelling a long way from wherever you’ve been with your mouse, so it is reall a bad place to use for anything used frequently.
I know a lot of people who are just not using computers as often and excessively as I do, and they really have problems using the right button, or remembering what it was there for.
So, I too think Apples approach is the best, basically requiring developers to write applications so you can use them with a one button mouse for the less advanced user, but also having all the APIs and drivers in place for any multi-button mouse, so the more experienced users can use their multi-button mice without problems.
I for my part could live without the right button, but I can’t live without the scrool wheel. That’s why I installed SideTrack on my laptop to get scrollwheel-like functionality on my trackpad.
the corners of the screen would be ‘points’. The edges of the screen would be ‘areas’. Slightly different, no?
Bodensteiner: “All right, now I’m curious. Why is 5 buttons a minimum?”
Simple. Left click. Right click for context menu. Middle click for “open link in new tab” in Firefox. FOrward and back thumb buttons.
When gaming, more would be better, but it’s hard enough to find games that are sensible enough to work with five, let alone more.
Webdragon: “In fact the software argument is LONG dead. The Macintosh currently runs ALL the software.”
Don’t be ridiculous. It may be better than it was but it doesn’t run everything.
Games: Doom 3 is coming but afaik it’s not around yet. Half-Life 2 isn’t there at all; neither is say NFS:Underground or anything similar I can think of.
Hell with it, neither is Gran Turismo 3; you did say “ALL the software” after all.
Of the games I have installed here, I think Deus Ex and Diablo 2 would be about the only ones with Mac ports.
Feel free to correct me if one of the above does in fact have a Mac port I’m not aware of. I’m not saying there aren’t any good games for Mac, but trying to pretend everything’s available for them is just silly.
sorry, but you are so dead wrong it’s rediculous. please read my article on this subject of which locations on the screen are the easiest to access: http://otierney.net/comment.php?newsId=30
“” I consider 5 buttons a minimum and hence wind up buying an aftermarket one for my PC regardless. ”
Why settle with just 5 buttons?
Why don’t you just build the whole keyboard into the mouse. The ultimate and elegant Windows solution – a mouse with 110 buttons!
Ever heard of ergonomics ?
My best regards to all your 5 mouse fingers.
And I might just add, in addition to the “my god just one button mouse” issue: No there is no “decent” software for the Mac. None at all. Zero. We Mac users just run our mouse software all day long.
This is the planet Earth, isn’t it ?
“Unfortunately I have seen the same attitude from many other PC users, even from some big linux and open source advocates, they secretly have a little partition with an illegal copy of windows, just to be safe and sound for when KOffice crashes or Xine cannot show porn movies encoded in proprietory codecs or when they want to use their webcams or transfer files to their friends but Kopete or Gaim crashes because they are behind a firewall or something and also for playing again illegally pirated games.
Sure PC is a more trivial and cheaper platform for using stolen software.”
Oh now, you’re a funny guy. Not only are Macs better, but Mac users are more honest than PC users. you say. LOL. Priceless. By all means, make sure you always reinforce the stereotype of all OSS people living in their parents basements, and all PC gamers as thieves. Personally, if you ask me it’s the other way around. PC gamers are the ones getting robbed by the hardware companies by constantly having to update their hardware just to run the newest games. And don’t quote me on it, but I’m pretty sure it’s possible to pirate software and videos and music on a Mac. It’s also quite possible to crack servers, generate worms/malware and flame people bulletin boards from a Mac. And while we’re at it, lets ask Wozniak if the head Mac user, Jobs, is as ethical as you probably think he is.
Fair call. My current mouse has 8, or from a technical perspective 10 (the scrollwheel effectively being two buttons).
In that regard, I haven’t found that I’ve got too many as yet; although I don’t use the three on top too much. This probably stems from poor driver support so they’re not available much of the time I’m working with it.
I’d quite like a MX1000; they’ve got sideways scroll motion too. That’d be 12 buttons; might be nearly enough.
Yes, I have heard of ergonomics. I wouldn’t go arguing on the side of Mac mice there; those awful circular things aren’t remotely ergonomic compared to Logitech or Microsoft’s latest mice.
That being said I wasn’t actually coming down totally against the Mac in my post. My point was more that I find a large number of buttons very useful; not that everyone does.
Obviously 110 buttons are overkill. But as you astutely pointed out, you do have 5 fingers (or 4 and a thumb…) on the mouse; why utilise only one of them?
“Why doesn’t the mac ship with a two button mouse”
What is the big problem with having THE CHOICE to have a single button or two buttons? I really don’t get why this is a big deal!
Is it a case of two button good, one button bad?
Maybe it’s an insecurity issue on the part of PC users. They just can’t understand how anyone can use a computer as efficiently as them using only one mouse button.
I have two macs, a powerbook and a PC. The PC has two buttons, the macs all still use the single button. Believe it or not I get things done quicker using the macs. Why is that? I honestly have no idea, maybe it is just the fact that I’m more familiar with the one button way of doing things.
Want to open a web page in a new tab – apple click. Use the contextual menu – ctrl click. You can even set your mouse up to ‘click and hold’ to simulate a mouse click.
You people all seem to think you are so techy yet you rely on your mouse so much. That makes no sense since, really, if you want to be at your most productive you should be using the keyboard for most things.
Get over your insecurities and stop all this FUD about one button mice. So I’m not a techy clone – I’m glad I have only one fucking button on my mouse thank you very much, my choice!
What on earth is so bad about only having one mouse button?
Any long time Mac user can tell you that the Command Key is our main way of interecting with the OS after the mouse. Click on a file, Command-C to copy. Way quicker than right-click, scroll down to copy command, click.
It’s second nature to use because the keyboard doesn’t change its contents or size, unlike the contextual menu.
The only thing I’d really want is a scroll wheel, but it’s also second nature to press spacebar to scroll down web pages. Since my thumb is on the spacebar and my other finger on the Command key then I have no problems.
So unless you only have one hand or are a “new” mac user you will have learnt to live without the two buttoned mouse and can work much faster as a result.
A nice CHOICE would be if you could ask apple to include a different mouse instead of paying for the one you get AND buying another one.
Hmm, you probably can actually, otherwise the apple stores would suck. But you can’t with ibooks/powerbooks.
“And while we’re at it, lets ask Wozniak if the head Mac user, Jobs, is as ethical as you probably think he is.”
name one more ethical person in top of a multi billion dollar
corporation. Bussiness has it’s own world and standards not similar to our world. To me Jobs is not a moral role model, but I certainly respect him as a successful man and the savior of Apple. Sure he probably has done some stuff that people might not like, but I have seen many worse cases in that level.
What is the big problem with having THE CHOICE to have a single button or two buttons? I really don’t get why this is a big deal!
Show me where I have a choice on a laptop.
Yes, I realize I could buy an external mouse for it. But I really don’t need the aggrevation of one more peripheral to lug around.
Don’t get me wrong, I have an iBook, and I love OS X dearly.
But if I had the option of using OS X with a Thinkpad style of keyboard/mouse/pointer, I’d love it that much more.
Apple, of course, has the perogative of continuing to ignore the complaints of potential users who want a 2 or 3 button mouse on a laptop.
Of course, the price of that decision is that they will continue to lose sales to those potential customers who consider that to be an issue. Which there appear to be quite a few of.
Of course, the price of that decision is that they will continue to lose sales to those potential customers who consider that to be an issue. Which there appear to be quite a few of.
That’s probably why Mac sales have been increasing over the last couple of years… Get your facts right, please.
You may have no choice to have two+ button pads on iBooks/Powerbooks, but can you then point me to a x86 laptop reseller who lets me choose a 1 button pad on their laptops?
The argument goes two ways.
That’s probably why Mac sales have been increasing over the last couple of years… Get your facts right, please.
That in no way negates the fact that there are still sales they’re losing.
I’ll point out that while they’re shifting more units, the total market for PC’s is increasing at a faster rate than Apple’s sales are, consequently they’re still losing market share.
You may have no choice to have two+ button pads on iBooks/Powerbooks, but can you then point me to a x86 laptop reseller who lets me choose a 1 button pad on their laptops?
The argument goes two ways.
Unless you can demonstrate that there’s a demand for a one button mouse Windows PC, I’d say that’s an irrelevant argument. I’ve yet to see anyone complain about the lack of that option on a PC.
actually, they dumped the Puck mouse for the wonderful optical mouse about 3 years ago. I did hate that thing.
You may have no choice to have two+ button pads on iBooks/Powerbooks, but can you then point me to a x86 laptop reseller who lets me choose a 1 button pad on their laptops?
The argument goes two ways.
The one button mouse is a pain in the behind and a pointless throwback to outdated technology. After a week or two of trying to use it with my new Mac I quickly replaced it with a Kensington model, but of course I shouldn’t have had to if Apple was living in the 21st century.
“The one button mouse is a pain in the behind and a pointless throwback to outdated technology.”
AAAAAAAAARRGH.
At least you had the choice to replace it! If Apple gets rid of the one button mouse then lazy programmers will start adding essential functionality to the right click. At least now they can’t do that. I like things simple, stop trying to complicate it on me!
And as to the two buttons on an ibook – have you tried sidetrack, a great customisable touchpad controller. set multiple buttons, scrollbars etc.
Stop whinging the lot of you. If two buttons really means that much to you don’t buy a mac. Your loss.
“By all means, make sure you always reinforce the stereotype of all OSS people living in their parents basements, and all PC gamers as thieves.”
Of course, not all OSS people live in their parents’ basements (some prefer to live alone in a small, windowless studio apartment). 😉
Actually, I’m an OSS person and I live in a very nice, large, tastefully furnished apartment with my lovely girlfriend; of course, I may be the exception.
While cracking and pirating software is possible on a Mac (or any other platform, for that matter), it does seem to be less prevalent than among Windows users. I’m not sure why, exactly…maybe Mac users just don’t mind spending the money (if you want to REALLY offend someone, of course, you could say that they’re too stupid to crack the software…I wouldn’t recommend saying that, however, as it’s patently untrue and may incite a ruthless bludgeoning by a mob of Mac zealots).
I know many people who have never paid for the software they run on their machines (even some administrators – to be honest, most of the sysadmins I know) and seem to think that they are somehow entitled to the software. Again, not all Windows users do it (saying that would just be silly), but there are a LOT of Windows users that do. A lot of those Windows-based machines that someone set up for Mom or Grandma are running unlicensed copies of Windows, Office, etc.
For OSS users, piracy just really isn’t an issue, for obvious reasons. I even donate time (DETAILED bug reports, etc.)and money to several OSS projects; of course, not all OSS people do, but that’s their prerogative.
I’ll point out that while they’re shifting more units, the total market for PC’s is increasing at a faster rate than Apple’s sales are, consequently they’re still losing market share.
Well, you said Mac was losing users. Which is utter nonsense seeing that their user-base is growing. The current growth in the personal computer buisiness is largely fueled by the demand in ie. China and India. Apple doesn’t compete there.
Losing marketshare doesn’t mean losing users. But hey, that’s only been explained here for about a million, plus two, times.
Unless you can demonstrate that there’s a demand for a one button mouse Windows PC, I’d say that’s an irrelevant argument. I’ve yet to see anyone complain about the lack of that option on a PC.
I’ll turn that around: why don’t you find a current Mac user that fumes at the one-button mouse? I certainly don’t; neither did I when I had my iMac before this one. And Mac users who indeed do not like the one button mouse simply hook up a multiple-button mouse and don’t complain.
I game (3d, roleplay, first-person-shooter, you name it) on my Mac and have for years. Where the heck have you been?
You really need to re-evaluate that statement; you’re more than a few _years_ out of date.
Nobody takes the Mac platform seriously as a games platform. And I doubt that anyone who primarily wanted to play games would purchase a Mac. The PC and console markets are what are driving the development and takeup of games (for both software and hardware). For many games developers (not all, but certainly a majority), the Mac is an afterthought. The Apple Emac has a paltry 32mb of video ram. Even low-end PC’s (not designed for gaming) have more memory on their video cards than that.
Call it 11 if you like; as far as the OS is concerned, a scroll wheel is THREE buttons. Roll it up, that’s one button. Roll it down, that’s two. Press it, that’s three. That’s how scroll wheels are seen by the OS…
“You may have no choice to have two+ button pads on iBooks/Powerbooks, but can you then point me to a x86 laptop reseller who lets me choose a 1 button pad on their laptops?”
Lever the right mouse button off the laptop, fill it up with Polyfilla, glue it back on top. One button laptop!
Lever the right mouse button off the laptop, fill it up with Polyfilla, glue it back on top. One button laptop!”
Go to the shop, spend 4 Euros, plug it in. Done, 2+ button iBook! And as an added bonus, you don’t loose warranty!
I’m not going to disagree that the Mac isn’t a primary target for many (mostly smaller) game developers. However, I don’t think it’s so much a matter of the hardware as it is simply perception, and perhaps software.
The eMac does come with a 32MB video card. However, I still see the majority of low-end Wintel PCs coming with 32MB of shared memory. The eMac at least doesn’t go this low.
The software aspect is the bigger problem. A lot of game companies use DirectX because it’s easy, and being from Microsoft, it’s easy to justify using it to bean-counter types.
However, as was pointed out, the major players generally realize the importance of portability and are targetting things like OPenGL, which means that the most popular games are generally available on the Mac. Head on over to apple.com/games if you doubt this.
It’s a weak area for the platform, undoubtedly, but it’s equally as important to understand why this is the case as it is to be able to admit it in the first place.
..what about Andy Hertzfeld and his book? Is the whole thing about mice or what ?
sheesh
Not to get off topic, but diehard PC users will frequently refer to Macs as toys. However, many of those who take that attitude use their PC primarily for “gaming” (is game a verb??).. So they’re effectively using their PC as a toy while disdainfully referring to the Mac as a toy. I detect a hint of hypocricy.
The eMac does come with a 32MB video card. However, I still see the majority of low-end Wintel PCs coming with 32MB of shared memory. The eMac at least doesn’t go this low.
PC specs move on rapidly and low-end PCs with 32mb of shared memory simply aren’t being sold (maybe 64 or 128mb of shared memory, but not 32). When I say low-end, I mean in the price range of about $500. If you’re talking about $199 base units, that’s hardly a fair comparison. At an equivalent price point to an eMac, I seriously doubt you’ll find any PC with a 32mb graphics card in today’s market.
It’s a weak area for the platform, undoubtedly, but it’s equally as important to understand why this is the case as it is to be able to admit it in the first place.
One of those reasons being that Apple haven’t done a great deal in the past to actively encourage games developers. I’m not a Microsoft fan, but when they decided they wanted to turn the PC into a serious gaming platform they sought extensive feedback from games developers which helped to shape the resulting DirectX platform. And they did it because they knew, quite simply, that it was the only way to get developers onboard. As for the API being easy to develop for, isn’t that the whole point?
One of those reasons being that Apple haven’t done a great deal in the past to actively encourage games developers. I’m not a Microsoft fan, but when they decided they wanted to turn the PC into a serious gaming platform they sought extensive feedback from games developers which helped to shape the resulting DirectX platform. And they did it because they knew, quite simply, that it was the only way to get developers onboard. As for the API being easy to develop for, isn’t that the whole point?
I would actually say (being a game developer myself), that the API has little to do with what platforms people choose to support. Each studio will in effect create their engine in an abstracted fashion… so it’ll work with whichever API they want to use… Dx/Gl… even third party Renderware… etc…
Hate to say it but its all about money. Most developers will simply create their game for the audience that will bring them the most sales. That’s why there are so many console shops now… PC (windows/mac) programming is becoming the afterthought with less of a market. That’s not to say that all game types lend themselves to consoles though (RTS for example).
Console game bring in the money… if there is time and a large enough market to support another platform, then it’s added.
The mac community is simply too small of a market atm… (typing this from my dual g5). Most studios cannot afford to invest in a platform that doesn’t generate the revenue they need to break even. Some studios (AAA title generators) have a better chance at breaking even (Blizzard/id) than smaller shops.
This is how I see the market these days for major gaming platforms (leaving off handhelds [GBA/Nintendo DS/PSP/cell phone]:
PS2
XBOX
Gamecube
Windows
Mac/Linux
Market share is PS2 for console. Windows for computers.
Simple math, really.
well answered, sir – but it’s still not built-in to the laptop.
Well, you said Mac was losing users.
I said no such thing! I said there are sales Apple isn’t getting because they don’t offer an option that’s a deal breaker for many users. That’s an entirely different thing from saying they’re losing users.
I’ll turn that around: why don’t you find a current Mac user that fumes at the one-button mouse?
That’s easy enough. Me. As I said in the first place, I own a Mac, and I’ll probably soon own more Macs. At the moment, I’m posting from a Mac. I own PC’s and Macs both.
Look, I’m not interested in getting into a pissing match with a platform bigot. I simply made a point that I think should be crashingly obvious to anyone with sense: the one-button mouse is disorientating experience to most people who are accustomed to two (or more) mouse buttons. Given that Windows PC’s overwhelmingly dominate the market, it isn’t rocket science to figure out that that’s most computer users. It’s an important feature to a lot of people. And when Apple fails to accommodate that demand, they lose the custom of those people. I don’t see what’s so controversial about that statement. If you want to have a tantrum about it, suit yourself.
1 button or 2 button. who cares.
I for one am looking forward to reading this book.
A story of a time when this industry was youthful and optimistic. Where innovation and impressing your friends was king. Where religious wars were things in world history, not in IT camps.
The way this thread has dissolved shows the problem in this industry. One button or two. Who cares. It’s a story out of Oliver’s Travels.
THE BOOK, on the other hand, is a memory of what made this industry great once. We would all benefit to read it and connect again with the joy that is technology.
“Not to get off topic, but diehard PC users will frequently refer to Macs as toys. However, many of those who take that attitude use their PC primarily for “gaming” (is game a verb??).”
Well, when the Mac case was designed, Jobs and his marketing gurus didn’t consult with Geoffery (the giraffe). Had they done so, they would have found out that the Mac case design looked way too much like a Vectrex game box which sold for less than USD 100; not the kind of “Molloy effect” one would want for a USD 2500 machine. IBM got that part dead right (like General Motors, they always do).
The first Mac design done by Smith was a 6809 based system which might have eventually run Microware OS-9 level-2 which can “see” blocks of 64K memory up to 2 MB. Jobs should have properly investigated the design capabilities of the 6809 chip. It could be that Raskin was more in step with the larger industry than others at Apple. The 6809 chip was a design that engineers and software developers were both familiar with, and generally favorable to.
In the end, the Atari-800 was a superior machine for the same price, while the C-64 got a low price point for the home market. IBM took over the CP/M market and it’s developer base with an enhanced workalike product.