When it comes to Apple Computer’s new Mac Mini, beauty is in the eye of the person holding the wallet, says C|Net. My Take: I updated my blog with an… unrealistic hope for an even cheaper Mac Mini.
Mac Mini a maxi deal? Depends what you want
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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Well, I think this would be a great machine for Joe Sixpack. Sure, it may cost a little more than the cheapest PCs, but the hardware is of better quality and the increased cost may be worth it when you consider that you don’t have to deal with all the spyware and security nightmares that is Windows.
Of course, for people like me who don’t have any issues at all with Windows or PCs in general, there’s nothing really appealing about Macs at all, much less this new one. But my parents would probably love it
“A lot of whether (the Mini) is a good value or not depends on who it’s targeted at and who is really going to buy it,” said Steve Baker, an analyst with The NPD Group. “Is it a good value compared to the entry-level PC that you can find at Best Buy or Wal-Mart? The answer, I think, is clearly no.”
Of course, this Steve Baker must be a clueless Mac-hater. I mean, after yesterdays thread, I suppose we’ve established that anybody who doesn’t think the Mac Mini is a steal of a deal is being complete irrational?
/sarcasm off
It’s a nice machine to run OS X, plus you get the iApps. No other machine can edit HD cheaply and easily as this with iMovie HD or spending a few hundred dollars more for Final Cut Express HD. It’s just a nice deal.
I mean this machine is not for everyone. The same people who complained about price are still complaining about it or something else. Things never change, but they do for Apple, because they keep making, selling and becoming bigger.
“”Is it a good value compared to the entry-level PC that you can find at Best Buy or Wal-Mart? The answer, I think, is clearly no.” ”
It’s a matter of opinion, isn’t it, when you’re talking about value? It’s like Darius said, the lack of malware ought to be worth alot in time and money. And if you don’t know how to stop the malware on your brand new PC, what good is it? At least with this, you don’t have to hold your breath when you go online.
I had a question with regard to your blog entry. Is it common for companies to price products the same in dollars as Euros, or is it just Apple? Given how hard the dollar is tanking against the Euro, it would suck to have to pay 1.4x as much (plus VAT, etc), for electronics.
I think people who have decided that the Mini iMac doesn’t have value for them can have their opinion.
But, I’ve found some of the rationalizations for that opinion to be specious at best.
I think given market realities (cost of goods, cost of development, etc…), this is a QUITE LOW price.
Considering how much more volume x86 machines sell in, and how standardized the market is (much larger selection of parts suppliers who compete with each other, and so… prices are lower), there’s just no fair comparison with the Mac Mini.
I paid $1000 in 1979 for a TRS-80 Model I, Level I 16k unit.
$499 for a Mac Mini (plus $60 or less for a keyboard and mouse [included by MacMall for free], and under $100 for a 15″ tubed display), makes a nice starter unit for a student or any home user.
It wasn’t long ago when a 1.25mhz G4 was top of the line.
I’m still using a G4 500mhz PowerMac (and a G3 350) every day. It’s VERY usable, and the Mac Mini has to be lots more usable…
People are going to grumble about this or that.
But, let’s see in 6 months what the sales look like.
As I said elsewhere, I think bundling software is the best Apple can do. It costs them no money and adds value. Then, if mac mini owners are used to iLife apps, they’ll nag other people to get them (=buy them) as well.
With this box coming out all the other MACs will be going on sale…
It’s mostly Apple, but I am sure there others too… I don’t have other examples handy though.
I have never seen it shown how much other countries are really paying over us Americans once you factor in all local taxes and tariffs. I really don’t doubt that the products are somewhat more expensive though. It’s no different than when the same item will cost more or less depending on the part of the U.S. you are in.
oh what they call it?
Oh yeah the bundled software iLife’05
@Egunia :
About your blog as you said there are people who want computers just for basic purpose, they are either used to Windows computers also competition in this level is too much.
So according to me it doesn’t make any sence to enter into something where compition is too much & profit margins are low.
try and find someone who at one point or another owned a mac, and didnt like it. they do exist, but they are extremely, extremely rare. the opposit is true for windows pc owners.
look at the beos community, they are developing for a long dead os. hell, look at the amiga community, we are talking museum machines here. look at the mac community, with their undieing devotion to the company. then look at the windows community, with its occasional paul theurott and rob enderle aside, the average windows user looks at their machine as something that needs to be overcome to get work done, not as a friend who helps out whenever possible.
when your done varifying my statements, we are left with two facts. 1 – be, apple, and amiga customers are shockingly satisfied customers, 2 – windows customers tend to be about as happy as the guy who bought the five year old toyota. it runs and does what he needs it to, but otherwise is a pain to deal with and certainly nothing to get excited about.
now we are on the last step, its obvious that there is a difference in user satisfaction between windows users and users of the various operating systems i have mentioned. its equally obvious you have absolutly no idea why, as you said “Of course, for people like me who don’t have any issues at all with Windows or PCs in general, there’s nothing really appealing about Macs at all, much less this new one.”. youve got a choice, either ignore it and laugh at all the people paying slightly more and comming away way more happy then the guys going for the bargain and coming out at best, satisfied. OR, actually turn on your brain, stop bad mouthing stuff you dont understand, and actually talk to a mac/be/amiga user and try and figure out what it is that makes them so happy.
pretty sure this is an exercise in futility, but im tryin to get it in early so it will be read, and hopefully a few people who have never used anything but windows boxes before will stop and think for a moment that maybe there is something they are missing.
So according to me it doesn’t make any sence to enter into something where compition is too much & profit margins are low.
Bingo. As I’ve said before, Apple isn’t *going* for the volume market with this machine. They’re not trying to compete head-to-head with Dell, Compaq, or eMachines. Like all the other Macs, the Mac Mini is a low volume, high-margin machine, otherwise, Apple would lose money selling it. It’s a premium product for which you pay a price premium, just like the iPod, the Studio Displays, or the PowerMacs.
I am a Windows PC user (A+, MCP) but I like computing in general and this is a great additional computer to add to my setup. I like my monitor, keyboard, and mouse so I don’t need those. I’m going to add the mini to my existing hardware using a KVM switch. Now I can play with OS X (never tried a Mac before) and see if this could be a better machine to setup for my parents who currently run Windows.
I’ve been wanting to learn a Unix type of OS that is also easy to use and less prone to the issues Windows faces. I know Linux fits this bill and I have tinkered with it some. But, a Mac is definately easy to use and still powerful. This little machine fits my needs very nicely. I think it will be the best computer for my parents who can replace thier current pc with this and still keep the peripherals.
Oh yeah, they can still use Quicken, as can I, but in a safer OS environment. No need to learn Gnucash or try to run Quicken in an emulated environment.
My folks don’t do gaming but just email, surf the web, checkbook, simple stuff. I know I would feel better if they were using this mini instead of Windows.
The price you pay is fine for the power you are getting. I do wish they would throw in a keyboard and mouse by default, but like every cheap PC, you have to usually buy a monitor separatly.
You people seem to keep forgetting a couple of things:
1) Most people really don’t like computers. They kind of sort of know how to open up Word docs using Windows and have absolutely no desire to learn ANYTHING new beyond that. The thought of learning how to use a whole new operating system will make their heads explode (even though OS X is arguably easier to use).
2) People that at least know how to use their computers don’t want to start over on a new OS and reinvest in all the new software they’d need (even though OS X comes with a lot of essential software already). Just take some simple precautions and you can make Windows decently secure. I’ve never had a virus or spyware/adware on any of my computers, ever.
3) Coke vs. Pepsi, Chevy vs. Ford, Apple vs. PC… Religious reasons. Apple has spent 20 years fighting a marketing jihad against the PC and enlisting a core group of followers. While this core group kept them alive during the rough times, most people just aren’t willing to convert to a new religion.
As for me, I’ll probably buy a MiniMac pretty soon just to add a little OS X experience to my resume. I’m willing to play around with it and maybe get Mac certified just for the hell of it, but I doubt I’ll ever completly “switch.”
They’ll probably sell a bunch of these things and a large percentage of them will just canabolize the higher priced models. Who knows, maybe someday they’ll climb up to 5 or 6% of the world’s market share… but don’t get your hopes up. I give them a “B” for effort though. Great little product, but they should’ve done it 5+ years ago.
I bought mine as soon as the Apple store let me (shipping date 1/21, baby!) but I still think Apple could sell them cheaper.
Part of the genius of the Mac Mini is that Apple upgrades their OS a lot more than Microsoft, and each OS upgrade is another $129. Sure, a user could decide not to upgrade but I’d bet that if the user’s experience is good with the present OS, they’d be more apt to pay for the upgrades as long as there’s value added. Apple has shown that IMO with each release of OSX.
Even if the hardware is break-even or at a bit of a loss, there’s a good chance you’ll make it up at some point, either through OS upgrades or new users who decide to upgrade their hardware to an iMac or PowerMac. I think the key is getting the user to actually *use* OSX, then they’re hopefully hooked.
The only thing that Apple needs to do is lose the somewaht elitist mentality that is shown by a lot of current users. I’d hate to see an influx of new users get turned off by the community while the OS is so good.
What about taking four of the minis, and installing XGrid?
http://www.apple.com/acg/xgrid/
would only cost $2k! And, stacking these guys, one on top of another, would be like having a skinny tower, 8″ high!
And, for that matter, install linux on them, and do a linux cluster! Not much heat, so, no A/C. And, would take up very little space.
The thing that most people are forgetting is that the vast majority of the public doesn’t know how to USE a computer. They have just memorized a set of steps required to accomplish the tasks they perform regularly. Without the underlying understanding of filesystem management, applications, data files, memory, etc. the task of switching to a different OS means throwing out everything you “know” and memorizing a new set of steps.
The idea of a 1Ghz 30 gig drive Mac Mini for $399 doesn’t work for me. I mean, it might very well sell, but sometimes it gets to be a question of profit margins. By not-bundling iLife, dropping 10 gigs off of the hard drive, and dropping the processor to 1Ghz, do you really think Apple would be able to drop $100 off of what it costs to *produce* these machines?
I mean for Apple, I doubt they’re really paying much more for a 1.25 Ghz G4 than for a 1Ghz. Same thing for the hard drive. The difference in price between a 30 and 40 gig drive is pretty negligible. Bundling iLife costs Apple nothing in terms of production costs, but greatly increases the value of the Mac.
Usually with these things, companies set a profitable low-end price point, and add what costs them $30 of components and charge an extra $100 for it. But that doesn’t mean they can afford to drop $30 worth of components and drop the price $100.
So, I ask you, how is Apple to make up the $100 lost on selling a $399 Mac mini?
DISCLAIMER: These comments are an interpretation of data found in the Apple financial reports and comments made by the editors of AppleInsider. The following comments also assume we are discussing the as is $499 USD base model.
If you’ve read apple’s financial reports you’d realise that
their financial advisors find the margins on the Mini Mac “acceptable”, but they’re not overly happy with it. Especially for education or government accounts. In fact, the margins on the Mini Mac are below what the normal industry margins are for this product.
I think it’s ludicrous to expect a company like Apple to shrink the margin even further, at that point there wouldn’t be any business sense in selling them at all given Apple’s smaller market share.
Your solution of reducing a few more components isn’t going to make up the margin difference based on Apple’s financial report.
Based on the comments made in their report, the Mac Mini has around a 20% or lower margin (about $100 or slightly less). That margin is not pure profit, but is what they walk away with after paying the costs for the unit in the immediate term.
That margin even grows smaller for educational or government and ends up at around $70.
Now, if these turn out to be popular enough, and Apple can ramp up production volume, then they can lower the price some if they want to because costs will go down somewhat.
But, as it stands right now, I think you were right when you said it was an “unrealistic hope”.
Given the single-digit margins posted by Dell or Compaq, 20% is absolutely enormous!
Enormous to you maybe, but Dell has significantly more volume and sales than Apple, that makes a big difference.
“look at the beos community, they are developing for a long dead os. hell, look at the amiga community, we are talking museum machines here. look at the mac community, with their undieing devotion to the company. then look at the windows community, with its occasional paul theurott and rob enderle aside, the average windows user looks at their machine as something that needs to be overcome to get work done, not as a friend who helps out whenever possible.
when your done varifying my statements, we are left with two facts. 1 – be, apple, and amiga customers are shockingly satisfied customers, 2 – windows customers tend to be about as happy as the guy who bought the five year old toyota. it runs and does what he needs it to, but otherwise is a pain to deal with and certainly nothing to get excited about.”
Beos and Amiga people are hard core nerds and computer snobs. Not saying there’s anything wrong with that, but they are not your average every day computer user. If they were car guys instead, these would be the guys that complain about how ugly and lame modern cars are and would be out in their back yards building their own custom drag racers. Some peopel just like to tinker, but MOST people just want to stick with what they know don’t want to deal with getting their hands dirty.
The great majority of Windows users whine and complain about Windows because most of those people just hate computers in general. We’ll never know, but I believe that if Apple had the monopoly on the computer world, those same people that hate computers would hate OS X. They might not bitch about the blue screen of death, but they’d just find something else to bitch about.
People hate computers. They’re forced to use them at work and think that a minute of your life sitting in front of a computer is a minute of your life wasted.
One last piece of evidence is the “scoreboard.” If people really hate Windows that much (instead of just whine about it) why do they have a virtual monopoly? Okay, enterprise and government markets aside, why can’t Apple at least take a chunk out of the consumer market? Because people really just don’t care what they use and like to bitch a lot.
Yesterday the Dell Dimension 3000 was $499 incl. 15″ LCD flat panel display. Twice the speed, twice the RAM, 4 times the FSB.
I fail to see the attraction of paying the same price for less than half as much.
This is basically a ‘cheap’ Mac for Apple owners, it’s no kind of enticement to switch. If Apple drops the price to $300 and includes a flat panel, I’ll consider it tho..
I don’t know if it’s intentional but Apple has done something evil… launched a product like this two months before the release of a major OS upgrade. I think they’re going to sucker a lot of people who haven’t owned Macs and bought an iPod and went “Gee whiz, this rules!” into buying a cheap Mac Mini only to discover that two months down the road they’ll need to shell out $130 for a copy of Tiger.
I will certainly wait until rev 2 of the Mac Mini is out and it comes preinstalled with a copy of Tiger before making my purchase. With all the accessories I want (1.42GHz/80GB, SuperDrive, 512MB RAM) the price is approximately $766 (that includes ordering a $29.99 USB Mac keyboard from MacMall), and the Mac Mini is simply awesome to begin with, so that’s certainly worth it to me.
to read on my mobile phone
Part of that comment is true but Mac OS isn’t THAT different from a new user point of view. The modern UI paradigm is pretty well accepted and works fairly similarly across Windows, KDE, Gnome, Mac OS (X and earlier versions), Be, Next/OpenStep and probably any other GUI based OS.
Changing from Win XP to OS X is probably less of a culture shock than moving from Win 95/98 to XP (and don’t forget there are plenty of “Average Joe” users out there still running those OSs on “legacy” hardware… Just like there are probably plenty of users with legacy Macs running OS 7-9
That doesn’t seem a like cause of not switching, people with that much inertia /fear of change aren’t going to buy new hardware full stop…
I really don’t understand all the whining about this system lacking mic / linein ports. The iBooks also have this problem. Most people do not use these ports, especially the target group of users for this machine. If you need these ports, then the system is obviously not for you. It’s made for the average person’s needs. (ex; listening to mp3s, and not recording your old cassette tapes to mp3 format)
This product is totally amazing for the amount of money Apple wants for it.
But alas, people will always bicker and complain. If Apple did include the ports, you people would complain about the lack of a keyboard, or ONLY 256 mb of RAM. If Apple lowered the price a hundred dollars, there would be a gigantic debate over ‘Why they didn’t do this at product launch.”
Final statement; If you are so mad that they didn’t put the ports in, quit your day job and become an Apple engineer.
Anyone knows if the *specific* ATi Radeon 9200 version included in the Mac Mini can do 1600×1200 at 85 Hz? The website does not list what the specific model of the 9200 can do exactly and in which resolutions.
I have this nice 21″ CRT SONY monitor (I don’t want an LCD, don’t bother) and I need to know if the Mac Mini can drive it to its suggested resolution/ Hertz: 1600×1200 at 85 Hz. I know that this card can do 75 Hz in that res, but I want to run the monitor at 85 Hz (as I do with my dual Celeron 533, WinXP and an old Matrox Millenium Max 32 MB from 2000). Less than 85 Hz in that res is not acceptable for me. If the card can do such a resolution well (that is, not like cheap cards like SiS or S3 distort the picture when running on a high res/Hz — these cards can’t even do 85Hz), then I will be buying a Mac Mini when Tiger comes out.
“”Gee whiz, this rules!” into buying a cheap Mac Mini only to discover that two months down the road they’ll need to shell out $130 for a copy of Tiger.”
I’m not so sure about that. Many are saying even Panther doesn’t run so quick on a G4 1.25ghz, so won’t upgrading to Tiger slow things down even further? If a person is buying a low end machine like this, is upgrading to Tiger even worth the money?
That’s a second class computer.
Do you want to buy a new second class computer?
Too often in these types of discussions, I see people say Mac hardware is of higher/better quality. Sure, the chasis is of better quality and construction than many PC cases, but that’s about it.
Go to any Mac forum and in the hardware section there will be plenty of threads of people with hardware related problems – and yes some indeed are due to poor quality hardware.
Battery recalls (every laptop maker probably had this happen to them), dead screens, dead pixels, bad RAM on the soldered-on modules (why would you make RAM irreplaceable is beyond me), warped chasis of the aluminum powerbooks. Just some examples. And before anyone rebuttals with a comment like “oh but Dell laptops have XYZ problems too”, heh, that’s my point! Apple computers aren’t any better/worst in quality and reliability than the next company. (I just listed mostly laptop issues because they were the first ones to come to mind. My point still directs at all computer systems and product lines)
I myself have had a bad 56K modem in an iMac flat panel. Negligible yes, but reaffirms that hardware is hardware. Just because there’s an Apple logo on it does not make it somehow magically superior.
Of course it’s a second class computer. You’re missing the point. It’s $500.
Want a new more powerful Mac? Buy one.
Don’t like Mac, don’t.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with Apple creating a low priced entry-level Mac for people who don’t want to spend a lot of money.
This doesn’t relate specifically to the Mac Mini, since I haven’t seen it yet, but several previous remarks were pretty well considered. Yes, I think Apple does make money selling it’s $129 upgrades. I think most people who are happy Mac customers will upgrade — but probably not forever. OS X 10.3 Panther is so good right now, I think Apple has a real challenge getting people to pay that money for just a few added whistles. Mac users are on the whole happy customers: The hardware is reliable and robust, and the OS is truly easy to use. It’s a well-engineered system and it shows. It’s not just geeks and nerds who like their Macs, but just about anyone who uses one, regardless of how they came to it. In fact, I’d bet that most of the hostility Mac users feel towards Microsoft didn’t grow until AFTER they’d used Macs, and realized how much M$ had been holding them back.
Those who are claiming that most computer users really don’t enjoy using computers and won’t spend any more effort than they have to to learn them — you’re right. Of course, most computer users are stuck with Windows. What’s to like? You could learn more with less effort on a Mac, but you’ll spend just a touch more money doing it. It’s a shallow reason, but effective. Bargain basement sells, even when the value subtracted is greater than the cost savings.
All that being said, Apple is at a point where it needs to do SOMETHING. As good as its operating system is, in the long run, it won’t be able to compete with a rapidly improving Linux. If Apple doesn’t find a way to gain support from within the Linux world, it will wither and die.(Or transition completely to the iPod business!) Microsoft is the least of its worries.
I consider myself a very happy Mac user. I’ve had good experiences both on the hardware and software sides. But life goes on. I’m switching to Linux.
About the Europe-US price thing: I understand from a business point-of-view that Apple makes the prices the same in Dollars and Euros; it’s a cheap trick to get more Euros, which are far better value atm, in the company.
However, I don’t think it’s very fair towards us Europeans. I mean, I was thinking of buying the Mini, but this price thing is nagging me. Especially since I already paid the whole nine yards for my iBook a few months ago, I find it just wrong to be screwed by Apple again in this price thing.
I agree that the 499$ is a nice price… But why in Gates’ name do they price it at 499E in The Netherlands? It’s just not fair… Well, life ain’t fair after all.
try and find someone who at one point or another owned a mac, and didnt like it. they do exist, but they are extremely, extremely rare. the opposit is true for windows pc owners.
Well, of course you’re right, considering that most Mac users are disgruntled ex-Windows users, so they have a reason to be overzealous. But how many Windows users have you ever seen going, “Ya know, my Windows box was running great .. never had any problems with it, but then I tried a Mac and WOW it was so much better!” No, the only thing I ever hear is “Yeah, my Windows box used to crash 4-5 times a day, but then I got a Mac and blah .. blah .. blah’
the average windows user looks at their machine as something that needs to be overcome to get work done, not as a friend who helps out whenever possible.
Yeah, and why do you suppose those of us who are proficient with Windows learned how to overcome it? Is it because we are masochists? No, it is because Windows serves a specific need for us that no other platform does (or at least did at the time we learned).
when your done varifying my statements, we are left with two facts. 1 – be, apple, and amiga customers are shockingly satisfied customers, 2 – windows customers tend to be about as happy as the guy who bought the five year old toyota. it runs and does what he needs it to, but otherwise is a pain to deal with and certainly nothing to get excited about.
Well, tell me about the Mac platform then. Most people who praise Macs do so by saying “Well, it just works!” Well, my PC just works. What do you say to a Windows user who has no security/stability problems, does very little work to maintain the OS, and his box runs smoother than a baby’s ass. Right now, I’m averaging 6-7 years for each PC that I have, so not like they’re breaking down left and right. So, what benefits exactly am I going to see on a Mac? Why should I take the time to relearn a new platform – how will my productivity increase, and what’s going to blow me away about the Mac? Is it the iLife apps? I’ve tried iTunes on Windows, and I’m not impressed. Though the CD burning and media organization capabilities seem to work well, 90% of the time, all I need is an audio player … something veyr small and fast, and iTunes is neither. As for the others, right now I use a combination of Audiograbber, Nero, and DVDShrink, and they work beautifully. Hell, I can even control Nero from Directory Opus (file manager) if I want
Why do people keep comparing OSX-equipt computers to WinXP-equipt computers?
A. $499 XP computers are crap, for the most part, and they sure aren’t 3 pounds. Build quality is questionable.
B. Let’s put a dollar amount on fighting virus and spyware infections. If your time is worth nothing, then a $499 Dell is a great deal.
C. There will always be a cheaper PC. It’s a commodity item. Apples will not ever become that, even with the Mini.
@ Eugenia: while I see your point for the even cheaper Mini, I think it’s not in compliance with Apple’s vision, because without iLife, it’s not providing the whole “experience” of OSX.
“I myself have had a bad 56K modem in an iMac flat panel. Negligible yes, but reaffirms that hardware is hardware. Just because there’s an Apple logo on it does not make it somehow magically superior.”
Yes, we do have bad hardware at times, on any computer. Nobody has flawless quality control. However, in general, Apple hardware is of higher quality. It’s not magically superior, it just has superior design and construction.
“Sure, the chasis is of better quality and construction than many PC cases, but that’s about it.”
That’s a big “it”. So is the fact that Apple has more control of the components they use than most other vendors. In 12 years of using 5 different Macs, I just this week had my first hardware failure. I had one Mac for 10 years — never a whimper. Another one I kept for six years — no problems. I had a G-3 iBook that got dropped several times, used in dusty outdoor and underground drilling environments, and in both hot and cold conditions. Even though the latch for the lid and the clip for the phone connector broke from the various accidents it had, the machine still ran flawlessly. After 3 years, I gave it to my daughter for her college work — she loves it. My G4 iBook now has a dying hard drive. It’s still under warranty. No problem.
My Dell work computers, on the other hand, have needed quite a bit of service. And my Microtel Linux computer, cheap as it is, has had problems with its ethernet and sound cards.
The difference in hardware quality is pretty obvious to me.
A. $499 XP computers are crap, for the most part, and they sure aren’t 3 pounds. Build quality is questionable.
Spending $499 for a PC without a keyboard, mouse, or monitor, you can get a pretty decent one.
B. Let’s put a dollar amount on fighting virus and spyware infections. If your time is worth nothing, then a $499 Dell is a great deal.
Of course, that’s always the rationalization. But what if I told it that fighting viruses and spyware could cost $0 and take up very little of your time?
Come on people, most of us are computer nerds who will never buy a $x.xxx dollars Mac, but for $4.xx even I’m getting one, this will make a really cool mediaplayer on top of my TV!!!
I think Apple is going to sell the mini Mac like hot cakes, eventually they will release versions with a mic, more ram, better GFX chipset, etc.
Seconded. I don’t think Apple quality is all that much better than other companies. I’ve got a Dell Inspiron, and the build quality is terrible, but I’ve also got a Dimension D300 that’s been chugging along perfectly since we bought it 7 years ago. I’ve also owned two iPods (a 15GB and a 40GB), and had to replace the 15GB once because it just plain died after a couple of months of use. Also, don’t forget the continuous complaints about the iPods magic dying battery in the 2G and 3G models.
If you want to learn *nix use *nix, OS X is not *nix. It barely manages to look and act like *nix. I love OS X, but you have to see it for what it is — a hodgepodge of *nix and NEXT. At it’s core it uses a modified BSD kernel w/ a Mach microkernel. It doesnt use the standard filesystem hierarchy (/Users, /Applications) and it doesn’t use the init system that all other *nixes use. I thought I could transfer a lot of my knowledge from Linux to MacOS X and a lot of it does help you (mostly userland programs which all come from FreeBSD/OpenBSD/NetBSD), but dealing with the inner workings of the OS is a completely different matter. You could achieve *almost* similar results by installing cygwin on Windows.
As far as the Mac Mini is concerned I would love to buy one but I don’t have a use for it. I have about 6 computers already, though 1 is a server and another a router. I have a Mac which I bought at the used computer sale at my University. It cost me $250 for a 400mhz G3 w/ OS 8 (and it was used!). I wish I had waited a year and just bought the Mac Mini. I guess I couldn’t have added my extra HD to it for my fileserver, but oh well. It would fit much better on my desk and be a much better performer. I suppose I could turn my G3 into just a Linux fileserver or something… Of course I’ll probably just wait till Tiger comes out and buy it then. I’m also interested in the iPod shuffle — I couldn’t find anything else with that much space at that price and the lack of a screen isn’t that big of a deal for me.
Apple NEEDS to bundle software like iLife on on their Macs for strategic reasons. After all, why are Mac users so devoted to the platform in the first place? It’s the software.
Software like iTunes, iPhoto, iDVD, Garage Band, iMovie is what keeps people juiced on the Apple platform. Seriously – would anyone voluntarily go back to working with Microsoft Movie Maker (stuck at version what?) after slicing and dicing video in iMovie HD? Do you think people will want to pony up X dollars for Adobe Album after using iPhoto for photo management if they decide to switch back to the PC from the Mac?
Because without these pieces of software, there really isn’t too much keeping one bound to the Mac. It’s for this reason that not bundling iLife with a Mac would be a strategically bad decision, and why we’ll never see it happen.
Well, I’ve never had Apple and I like my bsd too much to have one soon.
But if you buy ibm pc with windows you won’t get much software for it.
With mac, you get HD capable video editor, image editor, music editor and stuff like ability to create PDFs just by printing to a virtual printer.
If you buy similar software for windows instead of pirating them, you would need to pay a really big penny to get such commercial quality software. And using bsd or linux is not everybody’s cup of tea.
>Apple NEEDS to bundle software like iLife on on their Macs >for strategic reasons. Software like iTunes, iPhoto, iDVD, >Garage Band, iMovie is what keeps people juiced on the Apple >platform.
Except GarageBand and iDVD that most people don’t need, all this other software you are talking about come by default with OSX. So yes, iLife COULD be removed from a low-low-end Mac system that would’t even include a CD burner and it doesn’t have any Line-in/microphones. GarageBand and iDVD would be useless for 95% of the kind of customers I am talking about in poorer countries. And the OSX-bundled iMovie, iTunes and iPhoto would still exist in the system, so no harm done.
In it’s history, Apple has always been driven by hardware. Hardware sales were their main profit stream. So, in the world of Apple, hardware was expensive and software was relatively cheap. On the contrary, in the PC world, hardware was cheap and software was expensive.
However, we must introspect this stance once again, given recent developments. Apple now charges a substantial amount of money for software updates to OS X. iPod-inspired iTunes’ popularity is also an important piece of the puzzle. This popularity is coupled with sales generated by the software ala the Music Store. So, in essense, Apple has seen a larger and larger portion of their revenues driven by software rather than hardware. Granted, hardware is still, by far, the largest part of their business.
Now, consider what the introduction of a sub-$500 desktop computer from Apple means. This, IMO, is a signal by Apple that they wish to compete with PC sales at all tiers and not just the elite strata anymore. They are not just interested in the geeks of the world who don’t mind spending a few thousand dollars on a computer. They want to market to everyone. The grandmas of the world, for example.
With this in mind, it is crucial that Apple adopt a similar business model as the PC industry. Where the software is sold at a premium and hardware becomes commoditized. If they fail to do this, they will become *the* monopoly to watch. Steve Jobs will replace Bill Gates as the bully of the software world.
My conclusion is that till something happens in this arena to give me a clear direction of where Apple is headed, I would be weary about purchasing Apple hardware for fear that I will be tied to one company for all my computing needs. At both hardware and software levels. I still want choices.
Amit
http://www.gatewayink.com
And by not bundling iLife, it will save money to Apple, as the basic versions of iMovie, iPhoto and iTunes are already included in Mac OS X anyway
Uhm – last I checked, these ‘basic’ versions are the iLife software.
I see a lot of posts on how $499 is TOO MUCH. My opinion on this is that if you don’t have a job or the discipline to save up $500, the affordability of Mini is the least of your problems.
You need to find full time work that at least pays minimum wage. Even when I made minimum wage I still had money and things that I needed. I was even able to to afford a new 6100 at the time which was 2X the price of a Mini.
The whole idea that a PC can be had for less than $499 is true but people will buy the Mini with the idea of running MacOSX not Windows. I don’t know of a single person excited by the prospect of running XP on the Mini. They are buying the Mini BECAUSE IT DOES NOT RUN WINDOWS. So all these arguments about a PC competing with the Mini is pointless because a PC does not run MacOSX.
>>That’s a second class computer.
Do you want to buy a new second class computer?
Can you buy a first class computer with $500? Please show me how.
Its not common to set the price in EUR the same as in USD. In Sweden (Where we dont use EURO) the Mac mini starts at 4695 SEK = 675 USD or 512 EUR
In Germany the price is set to 499 EUR.
The blog is way of on that statement since the prices I got are from apple.com.
look at http://www.apple.com/se or http://www.apple.com/de
/Andy
It’s always interesting to see people devolving into a pointless feature comparison battle. It’s also interesting to note that you can never make some people happy because no matter how much you give, they always want more.
The bottom line is that Apple now has a Mac for $499. 90% of consumers don’t go through the process of thinking, “Wow, only a 167 MHz FSB versus 400 MHz on that Dell?” Most people, I think, start with a price in mind (“It has to be $500 or less”) and then evaluate rather holistically. “Can it do email”, “Can it connect to the Internet?”, “Can I use my digital camera with it?”, “Can it edit movies from my camcorder?”
So yes, whether the Mini is right for you depends on what you are looking for. The “great” sub-$500 PC bundles some people have been flaunting as “twice the computer” won’t do jack squat for me if editing my home movies taken with my DV camcorder is a priority for me (mostly because such PCs don’t come with FireWire on board).
Obviously, it would be foolish to max out the Mini, buy a new display, keyboard, and mouse, and put together a system that costs $1600 when you could pick up a much better iMac system for less. But I suspect a lot of people will just look at the $499 price, think, “Well, I’ve always wanted a Mac and I guess $500 isn’t too big of a committment since I’ll just use the stuff I have at home with it” and walk out with the Mini. Or not.
The Mini is what it is. No more, no less.
What do you say to a Windows user who has no security/stability problems, does very little work to maintain the OS, and his box runs smoother than a baby’s ass.
“You don’t know what you’re missing.” 🙂
Seriously, if you’re happy with your machine, then you’re happy with it.
You have your points. I am also a Windows user with a box that doesnt give any trouble (Presario 2100). However, that doesnt mean that I cannot appreciate OS X. What? if I have a Honda Civic working all the time, it doesnt mean that I will not like to have something better if I can afford it. My point is that you have to appreciate OS X. I am a Linux user too. I love it to death. But OS X is a dream. You can now have many of the functions that OS X have in Linux and the little new things in it. But they dont run as smooth as in OS X. OS X is a superior (graphical) OS.
Lars, if you buy a new Mac, the whole iLife five app bundle comes with it. Obviously, if you buy the iLife package itself, all five apps come with it. What Eugenia is saying is that, if you buy OS X by itself, you just get those three apps. She’s saying many, many people only would use those three anyway.
“And by not bundling iLife, it will save money to Apple…”
Huh? The marginal cost of software is zero. You silly girl.
stop with the idiotic statements about OSX upgrades.
you say that now they change for updates to the OS? are you mad?
10.1 10.2 10.3 10.4 are all major upgrades to the OS… jut like Windows 4.0 4.1 4.2 5.0 5.1 are to windows… you need a lesson on what those versions reference? Windows95, windows98, windowsME (though is 98SE was 4.2 then ME was 4.3), Windows2000 and WindowsXP.
all required payment.
the versions of OS X that are sold are hardly updates.
All these comparisons to x86 boxes mean absolutely nothing OS X and iLife ’05 are the reasons to buy the Mac mini, all of the people here going on about the quality of the hardware and not mentioning the software have obviously never used a Mac before. You can feel free to debate the speed of processors for the rest of your life but at the moment OS X only runs on Apple hardware, so get over it. The Mac mini is aimed squarely at people who have wanted to try OS X but have fallen for the Mac is too expensive FUD, it is also aimed at people who currently use OS X and might want another box to use around the house, and based on the 480+ threads in the original post about it’s release it’s obviously having an effect on some Linux users who want it for purely geek reasons.
I find it interesting that it’s always the same people here bashing Apple, with useless arguments that are completely moot if all you want to do is run OS X. Face facts if you want OS X buy a Mac, if you have no interest in OS X why post? Apple have bought out a BASIC machine for $499 to which you can either add your own stuff, or purchase more. Apple don’t make DIY clone boxes they never will so get over it.
THE MAC Mini IS THE CHEAPEST BOX YOU CAN RUN OS X ON, ‘NUFF SAID!
WOW, great deal for a NEW Mac.. i looked at a newer than my 340mhz Mac 6 months ago.. i didn’t want to spend $500 for a used one that was slitely faster so i bought a used 1.8ghz windows xp system for $200… the mini would be great.. this is going on my list for gotta haves for the coming year…
You have your points. I am also a Windows user with a box that doesnt give any trouble (Presario 2100). However, that doesnt mean that I cannot appreciate OS X. What? if I have a Honda Civic working all the time, it doesnt mean that I will not like to have something better if I can afford it.
So, assuming you’ve got a Windows box that runs without issues and you are proficient with it, what specifically about the Mac that makes it better? Is it the whole ‘style’ thing? Style is for shallow people, IMHO – the same people that will spend 5x more than they need to for a new outfit just so they can look like the rest of the lemmings. Don’t get me wrong – I will pay more for quality if it has some kind of practical benefit to me, but not just for the sake of having something that looks prettier on my desk.
My point is that you have to appreciate OS X.
Why? People always talk about how elegant it is, but it seems rather ugly and clunky to me. I find the whole dock thing to be especially useless, and I’m not overly impressed with iTunes either .. seems just another bloated MusicMatch Pukebox wanna-be to me. And who the hell buys a computer for the operating system anyway? That’s like buying a car and marveling about how pretty the steering wheel is. Clearly, I am missing something.
Ok so the Mac Mini is cute. Has minimal but mostly there connectivity and it’s pretty cheap. However did anyone notice that there’s one port. One single now adays taken for granted thing that while something can be glommed on via usb. It really sort of is the thing you could miss if you weren’t thining about it.
tic.. toc.. tic.. toc
times up.. it does not have audio in. No line, no mic. Nothing.
“Style is for shallow people, IMHO – the same people that will spend 5x more than they need to for a new outfit just so they can look like the rest of the lemmings.”
Funny, this comes off sounding just as elitist as any statement coming from a fashionista. And I guess your wardrobe consists of 10 fruit-of-the-loom tshirts, a couple of pairs of jeans from Target, and you wear sneakers – because those dress shoes are all style, no comfort – when taking your date to McDonald’s because Olive Garden is too much style to pay for.
Right…style is just a shallow thing. And while we’re at it, let’s ban all forms of art, since it doesn’t really contribute to productivity!
The whole idea that a PC can be had for less than $499 is true but people will buy the Mini with the idea of running MacOSX not Windows.
Talk about marketing to geeks. If the Mini only sells to folks who know enough about computers to not only know what Windows and OS X are, but to know that one is virus-ridden and the other isn’t, then the Mini will never sell well. The whole reason people are saying that it should be cheaper is so it’s more attractive to those who don’t know anything about computers, but are shopping in that price range. For its’ capability, the Mac Mini is still at the high-end of its price range.
Couldn’t Apple put in an 8x AGP? This box really cannot be upgraded, so why hammer the consumer that wants a larger display (w/higher refresh rates)?
Come on Apple….
There’s something critical to the success of the MiniMac that most posters on this thread don’t seem to take into account: style. People not only want a functional computer, but they want one with style. Sure you can get a big ugly box for less than $500 with more CPU power and bus speed, but most users aren’t going to max out their CPU anyway and won’t hardly notice a speed difference for most applications (and certainly not for email and internet usage).
And that’s where style becomes important. Many people will choose a computer that stylish over one that has greater performance (which they won’t take advantage of anyway). By style I mean the design. Why do you think the iPod is so popular even though you can get an MP3 player with greater capacity for less $$ from Creative or Rio? Style and design.
Computers are become more like household appliances or consumer electronics goods, and that’s where style and design starts counting a whole lot more than sheer performance. And that’s why I think the Mini Mac will be an outstanding success.
“Well, tell me about the Mac platform then. Most people who praise Macs do so by saying “Well, it just works!” Well, my PC just works.”
no it doesnt. it works because you have learned how to work around its limitations. that doesnt make those limitations go away, but become less noticable and “part of using a computer”
“What do you say to a Windows user who has no security/stability problems, does very little work to maintain the OS, and his box runs smoother than a baby’s ass. Right now, I’m averaging 6-7 years for each PC that I have, so not like they’re breaking down left and right. ”
first off, congratulations. 6-7 years between windows formats is extremely impressive. secondly, security/stability problems arnt the only issues with windows.
“So, what benefits exactly am I going to see on a Mac? Why should I take the time to relearn a new platform – how will my productivity increase, and what’s going to blow me away about the Mac?”
its difficult to describe this, because its not one thing. i would also like to note the last time i used a mac was almost a decade ago, so it will be hard to give specifics on osx. i could probably still give you a really good arguement on why os7.5 was lightyears better then win95, but thats a pretty silly arguement to be having now. if you really like i can get into basic design principles in mac os and how they are vastly superior to what is there for windows, but i dont know if that would really be all that impressive to you. one thing everyone understands though is features. look at the feature list of panther, windows xp, and the upcomming longhorn. panther and longhorn are real similar technology wise, with xp having been left behind in the dust. it is more then that, but that should be the most obviously apparent.
“Is it the iLife apps? I’ve tried iTunes on Windows, and I’m not impressed. Though the CD burning and media organization capabilities seem to work well, 90% of the time, all I need is an audio player … something veyr small and fast, and iTunes is neither. As for the others, right now I use a combination of Audiograbber, Nero, and DVDShrink, and they work beautifully. Hell, I can even control Nero from Directory Opus (file manager) if I want
”
not qualified to answer on iLife, although i have heard good things. i can tell you itunes for windows is most definately not itunes for mac. i actually perfer the by album method that muine uses when it comes to jukeboxing software, but itunes is the greatest thing since sliced bread to many, many people who disagree with me.
——————————————
ok, time for a bit of a HCI lesson. we’ll start with fitts law, the time taken to aquire a target is a function of the distance and size of the target. (this is what inspired the “tile” view for windows explorer) lets look at how menus work on a mac, probably the biggest difference between the two platforms. on windows they are on top of every window. on a mac, its that one singular bar. ever wondered why? fitts law. having the bar on the edge of the screen makes its size infinate in one direction. that means that instead of having to aim in four directions to aquire your target, you have to aim in two.
if you dont believe me, and happen to have linux, or another os that is more configurable then windows installed, try this out; put a terminal launcher in the upper left hand corner of the screen. without taking your eyes off of whatever you are doing, “throw” the mouse up into the lower left hand corner and click, then bring it back into your field of vision. its like a magic trick, and a great illustration of keeping fitts law in mind when designing. windows has gotten alot better about this, but theres still sillyness like a one or two pixel buffer between the screen edge and the scroll bar.
then theres nested menus. usability research shows that a human hand naturally moves a mouse in an arc, not a straight line. on windows, nested menus have about a half second timeout to give a bit of a margin of error if the user goes a bit outside of the menu item on his way to the nested menu. on mac, there is a v shaped buffer area, and no timeout. on a mac, nested menus act the same as normal ones. on windows, the half second delay gives it a sluggish feel, which is never a good thing.
theres shortcuts, not only are mac shortcuts designed to be more memorable (iconic symbol rather then text for the modifier key, simply using a program will subconsciously teach you its keyboard shortcuts) but they are far more numerous, which is ironic considering how mouse oriented mac has alwas been. the apple HIG is actually mostly followed, giving applications very similar behavior and design, allowing you to learn new ones quicker. the control panel allows for MUCH more customization then a windows machine (without resorting to third party hacks of course).
i could keep going, but this is a massive post already. the mac os is literally riddled with all these small things that save you time and thought, while not much by themselves add up to being quite significant, and giving a very pleasureable experience. when you use a mac, you feel like things are working for you rather then against you, and that is something that anyone can appreciate, from the total newb to the “power user”.
i would also like to reiterate that im not a zealot, or a troll. i havnt used a mac since my ancient mac classic II. i use linux at home and am very happy with it, and windows at work which i am mostly happy with. i want kidding in my last post, it is very very hard to find a mac user that doesnt love his machine. the funny thing is they have no idea why, i know i sure didnt. awhile back i started doing some usability reading (mostly cause linux UIs suck to such a huge degree that i wanted to learn how to make them better) and the more i read the more i understood why i still have fond memories of that ten year old machine.
I would have been much happier if the Mini had 512Mb as standard, a slightly more powerful processor and a better graphics card for an extra $200-$300. Then I would buy one. But as a power-ish user who plays the odd game and develops, I think the Mini is too light for my needs. For email, browsing, personal finance, office work and website development, it’s a great machine.
Conclusion: Not what I wanted, but welcome all the same.
“Talk about marketing to geeks. If the Mini only sells to folks who know enough about computers to not only know what Windows and OS X are, but to know that one is virus-ridden and the other isn’t, then the Mini will never sell well.”
With all due respect, I’m really wondering if you have ANY experience with actual “end users”. I easily convinced a friend of mine to buy an iBook a few weeks ago. I only had to show him mine, tell him “virus and spyware free” and he was convinced– he knew nothing about OSX or whatever. He’s now very happy with his purchase.
What I’m trying to say is: Apple can say what I said to that friend in a 30 second ad, show them the pretty box, the apple web address and they’re done. Local Apple retailers or Stores put up a few posters on street level and it will lure the people in, where the salesmen can tell them the vrisu/spyware thing, and show them the pretty white box.
See? It’s that easy to make people aware.
“Wow, only a 167 MHz FSB versus 400 MHz on that Dell?”
No, but they will see that the Compaq has a “2800+ rocessor” while the Mac only has a “1.25GHz processor”. Most people know just enough to realize that 2800 is a bigger number than 1.25G. Apple says as much in their 10-k financial statement. Now, Apple could move to PR ratings like AMD, which would help them out, but the kicker is that unless they completely lied (ala VIA), no G4 would hit a PR-rating of a 2800+ Athlon. People do have a vague idea that some computers are more powerful than other computers, and power sells. See a Chevy commercial lately?
“Well, I’ve always wanted a Mac and I guess $500 isn’t too big of a committment since I’ll just use the stuff I have at home with it”
What non-geeks have “always wanted a Mac”, and how many non-geeks have extra monitors and keyboards lying around at home?
all of the people here going on about the quality of the hardware and not mentioning the software have obviously never used a Mac before
Our library has a lot of iMacs, and I use them a lot because they are usually in low-demand when the place is crowded. Plus, it’s got a CLI so it’s to my taste. I like OS X, but to me, it’s not worth the dirty feeling of paying $500 for Pentium-3 class hardware.
>Anyone knows if the *specific* ATi Radeon 9200 version
>included in the Mac Mini can do 1600×1200 at 85 Hz?
A friend of mine was able to confirm for me that the graphics card on the Mac Mini can do 120 Hz on 1600×1200, so all is good. I will be getting one when Tiger is out.
I’m not saying that educating the consumer about Mac’s being spyware and virus free couldn’t be done, I’m saying that that level of education doesn’t exist right now. If you’re depending on that knowledge helping Mac sales right now, then your expectations are misplaced.
Most people don’t know any Mac users (I don’t know any personally), and when was the last time you saw an Apple ad that wasn’t for the iPod? I also think you have to consider just how hard educating the public can be. Most computer users think that “computers” have spyware and viruses, not Windows specifically. For example, whenever one of my computer-literate friends as a computer problem, they say to me: “Windows blows!” When my mom has a computer problem, she says: “The computer is broken!”
You can counter this idea, but it’s hard. Consider Mozilla. Mozilla has “shipped” way more copies of Firefox than Apple shipped of Macs last year. They have a word-of-mouth buzz that Apple hasn’t had for a decade and a half. Yet, it’s still an uphill for them to convince people that IE is their problem, not “the computer”.
[i]all of the people here going on about the quality of the hardware and not mentioning the software have obviously never used a Mac before [i]
Our library has a lot of iMacs, and I use them a lot because they are usually in low-demand when the place is crowded. Plus, it’s got a CLI so it’s to my taste. I like OS X, but to me, it’s not worth the dirty feeling of paying $500 for Pentium-3 class hardware.
#
I’m not going to comment on the obvious “Pentium 3 class” troll but I’m the same the Mac mini is not something I’m interested in, I have a Power Mac Dual G5 here for what I need it works great.
Don’t upgrade the mini. If you do, you might as well buy an iMac. Apple has planned this out perfectly. Price the mini so that if you absolutely must upgrade it, you will eventaully be jusy shy of the price of an iMac. The Mini is only a good deal if you take the stock $499 config, or maybe just up the ram to 512 which I did with the student discount. If I had added everything into the Mini that I wanted, it would easily have ended up costing twice the price.
@Rayiner Hashem
Our library has a lot of iMacs, and I use them a lot because they are usually in low-demand when the place is crowded. Plus, it’s got a CLI so it’s to my taste. I like OS X, but to me, it’s not worth the dirty feeling of paying $500 for Pentium-3 class hardware.
Then, you should be pretty happy. Apple hasn’t had a computer with Pentium 3 Class processor for several years…
A G4 is NOT a Pentium 3 class processor. It’s MUCH more powerful than a PIII of the same speed.
You keep trolling with this type of comment, and it doesn’t contribute anything.
I’m sorry you have some unreasonable grudge against Apple and the G4 Processor.
Many people use Celeron Computers, and don’t need the highest speed P4’s in the x86 market.
The same will hold true for the Mac Market. I’m nicely using a G4 500mhz machine at home, and a G3 500 iBook at work.
They are PLENTY fast, and I have no problems with them.
A G4 1.25/1.42 mhz processor is going to be AWESOME.
And that you are upset it’s not a G5 2.5GHz Processor is just too bad.
The user experience with this computer will be excellent, even if you can misconstrue performance based simply on processor GHz speed.
You just don’t need a Land-Speed Record Car to go to the corner store every day.
very well spoken matt, thanks
It’s really not even worth replying to his trolls, he’s done it constantly and will keep doing it. Just throw rotten fruit or something.
The best argument against the fact that MHz means crap these days is the fact that even the biggest MHz-addict, Intel, started using version numbers and model numbers and such instead of just MHz.
IDC analysts added “the stuff you’d want,” and the final price came to $1,300
Uh, what do I want that costs that much? I priced out a system and came up with $1,300 Canadian, about $1,000 US. More telling was why my expenses are so high: seeming as my current machine is a laptop, I had to buy a new monitor ($400 alone) and a decent keyboard and mouse. Then throw on some RAM. My tastes may be modest, but they certainly are not cheap!
And what is with the comparison of real prices with “scam” prices (ie. with mail-in rebates)? Mail in rebates are as fat as they are because a certain percentage of people either don’t submit them or don’t file them in properly. So the average price paid is somewhat higher than the sticker price. Think of it this way: if you bump the price by $50 and 50% of the people file for the rebates properly, you can offer $100 rebate. The additional labour can be made up for the additional marketing data you acquire.
The article threw a lot of numbers at the reader, and few of those numbers were backed by anything but hearsay. This article amounts to trash journalism, and little more.
A G4 is NOT a Pentium 3 class processor. It’s MUCH more powerful than a PIII of the same speed.
I’m not going to have this argument again. In retrospect, the only people who don’t admit the G4 is clock-for-clock as fast as a PIII are some fringe Mac-faithful. I refer you to an OSNews article on the subject: http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=769
As for those who doubt the utility of SPEC:
1) It’s the industry standard.
2) It tests real-world programs like gcc and gzip.
3) Apple used it to show how awesome the G5 was!
I’m not going to say anything more on the subject. For those who want to relive the 1990’s, I recommend you read the previous threads and pretend someone typed them today…
I consider myself to be a poweruser but I really don’t get how people here are obsessing about raw cpu power. For normal tasks I haven’t really felt an improvement by upgrading since we broke the 1Ghz barrier. And lets be honest here, if a familie has some had core gamers in it it probably has an xbox/ps2/whatever too.
If you need to serious development work, you will need something heavier – but then you won’t be buying a standard pc either. (And I do not consider compiling the odd Linux app serious development BTW)
Finally, small is cool in computerland these days and having a tiny system like this will go a long way to impress the pseudo-geeks (the kind who throw around acronyms without knowing their meaning) who will be installing these babies for their families.
Rayiner, your Pentium 3 class hardware comment is a little worrisome, you’ve spent a lot of time in this thread talking about the Mac and how it’s not a good value. I’d counter that it *is* an excellent value. Right now there is only one x86 product that competes with the Mini, and that’s the MochaPC / CappucinoPC, at 5.75″ x 6.18″ x 1.77″” it is a marginally smaller footprint computer, and has a starting price of $305 US. Adding the parts to bring it up to spec, a 1.20ghz Tualatin PIII, 40gb hard drive, slot loading combo drive, and Windows XP Pro, brings that price to $867 US, and guess what, it’s a Pentium III. That chip I might add, compares favorably to the Athlon MP’s at 1.4 and the Pentium 4’s at 1.3ghz according to most Winstone benchmarks. While the numbers I’ve seen put the PPC G4 1.25 at just slightly behind a 1.5 ghz Pentium 4.
Further, these numbers are comparing raw hardware performance, the infamous SpecInt numbers. Now these are in fact raw performance numbers, but the reality is that do to hardware implementation details, and better control over the display architecture, the implementation of the less expensive x86 hardware implements a design compromise that degrades overall system performance, and that is the video chipset logic with the common use of ‘shared’ memory for the video chipset, so the overall performance numbers of like priced hardware is more divergent than the hard numbers indicate.
I would also point out that most of todays ‘Celeron’ chips are derived from the Tualatin, and are for the most part Pentium III parts. The Pentium M series chips are the mobile P4 parts, and they are clocked like the PowerPC’s not the desktop Pentium’s despite putting up similar performance numbers. So the clock speed is quickly becoming a marketing problem for Intel as well :-).
In short, comparing the G4 to the P3 is unfair, though the G3 does compare much more favorably to the P3. The G4 has a lot of leg left in it, and it does compare vary favorably to the Mobile Pentium 4, but benchmarks designed for measuring the performance of x86 hardware and performance of Windows don’t tend to compare favorably to other platforms. After all, last I checked, you’ve got to spend a small fortune to get enterprise sun hardware clocked over 1.2ghz, but I don’t see anyone arguing that they are slow because the specInt scores are a little behind the current x86 🙂
//2 – windows customers tend to be about as happy as the guy who bought the five year old toyota. it runs and does what he needs it to, but otherwise is a pain to deal with and certainly nothing to get excited about.//
Five-year-old Toyotas are a pain to deal with? What the hell? My *ten*-year-old toyota runs like a Swiss watch.
I’m calling the analogy police on your Fass.
Maybe it is Apples fault for adverticing the mini Mac as entry PC. But technically most comments and the whole article are totally clueless. There is a machine with an ultra small formfactor which is totally silent compared with run of the mill entry level PCs with loud fans an awful thermal design and a huge power consumption. Totally different league technologywise. If you ever wanted to go for low power small form factor solutions, this is a totally different playing field and if you want fast processors additionally a very expensive one.
Currently on the PC side of things it is more or less like that, you can go for low performance, with C3 and mini ITX, you get around the same power consumption, around the same price if you add all the additional components you need and less connectivity (mostly firewire missing). And no matter what price you pay, the C3 is dead awful.
There also is the Efficeon with miniATX boards slowly emerging on the market, boards are around 300 and currently somewhat flakey and still much slower than the this apple offer. Note I am talking about the board and processor.
Then there is ARM, less power consumption but industrial miniITX or miniATX boards cost a small fortune and I have yet to see a small arm based PC like solution with HD and good connectivity for less than 700 USD, besides that ARM is also very slow.
All other options if you go for mini itx/mini atx with more processing power are much more expensive if you add the needed ram and HDs and the case (Centrino being the most prominent, but there a processor itx/miniatx board combo is more than the new Apple).
If you go for prebuilt with a good thermal design dont expect to get anything remotely noiseless lower than 700 bucks, if you need more power, centrino is the only option, miniITX formfactor in this case means industrial boards and thus very expensive.
Apple in this arena, has and I am not sure if even Jobs has noticed that, the machine with the best bang for the buck, I am probably not the only one who just bought it because it is the perfect homeserver (it basically has it written all over it).
Most press commentaries and forum commentaries dont seem to recognize this fact, no wonder, many in all the forums never really looked into serious silent / low power PC offers currently on the market or self building options, they see this fine machine just as a low entry machine, but that does not give it full justice.
I already know 3 people including myself who are getting one of the mini’s and I’m gettng a superdrive in mine. Two of these people own pc’s and I own 2 pc’s and a iMac dv. I know of 3 other windows users that are facinated with what I do on my mac with Final Cut Pro, iDVD, and iMovie who are looking at the Mini now.
These Mini’s came at the right place and the right time.
Look at the threads, there is so much hype around this computer. I can hardly believe it.
This computer won’t break the bank buying one…….so stop complaining.
Those saying if you can’t scrape together $x you’re a loser are likely people with
– no house
– no electricity, gas, property tax etc. bills
– no car (and I mean no reasonable sedan of recent vintage)
– no dependents
– no retirement savings
Priorities, kids! Grown-ups have them. Yes we can all spend like drunken sailors but it doesn’t work in the long run.
I started out with an Atari ST because of its onboard MIDI capabilities. Without knowing more than diddly about computers I was able to compose, sequence, mix and record to tape. After a few years of happy MIDI I decided I wanted to move on to audio. Well, by then the Atari platform was just a memory, although there were some valiant efforts to keep it alive. I bought into the “Mac’s are too expensive” and spent close to $4000 for a built-to-my-specs P3 with pro quality sound and MIDI/Audio (Gadget Labs WavePro, and Echo Layla). This box was running the latest/greatest rendition of Windows at the time, namely 98SE.
I never regretted anything more than trying to do audio on that win98 box! It was one problem after another. Sure I was able to get some stuff accomplished, but I fought both the hardware and the OS ALL THE TIME. I lost a lot good music because of sudden crashes and program lockups. I even lost music trying to save! About 3 or 4 years ago I installed BeOS and bought that Echo Layla which was “about to come out with Be drivers” which never happened. Then Be died and the remaining audio problems never got addressed.
I then tried Windows 2000. It was worse than 98SE! I was even advised by others doing audio on Windows that reinstalling the OS every 6 months was the only way to stay on top of it! After spending $250 on W2K I told myself I would never give MS another nickle. I’ve given up trying to do audio on Windows and my 15 year old Atari ST still does the MIDI better.
So I’m buying a Mac Mini, with 512M RAM and a combo drive. I don’t need a bigger hard drive since I keep everything on my Fedora server. I’m really looking forward to using Garage Band and recording to CD and DVD! I’ve got a nice monitor attached to that P3 which I’m going to enjoy donating to my local Sally Anne. I’m going to buy an Edirol USB audio connector for about $60 and maybe it will work with my edirol MIDI/audio breakout box. I’ll sell the Echo Layla on eBay, since Echo refuses to write drivers for Mac.
I think the Mac Mini is an excellent deal. Sure, I could assemble another Linux box for half the price, although it would not be the same form factor! But then I would still be faced with the reality of why I haven’t done any audio on my other Linux boxes: the computer savvy and hard work involved to make it all work. And then it’s only half ass. Maybe in another year or two audio on Linux will be worth it, but it’s not now.
As hard as I’ve tried I can’t love Linux. I think Linus Torvalds is a great guy. I work with Linux every day both at home and at my day job. I even have several Tux figurines. I think it’s great and all, but it just doesn’t excite me. At least not the way my old Atari did, or hopefully the way my new Mac will. Any way, it’s been a long time since I did any audio and I’m really looking forward to doing it again.
In Sweden (Where we dont use EURO) the Mac mini starts at 4695 SEK = 675 USD or 512 EUR
That is including VAT. The comparable price is 3756 SEK = 540 USD, which is a mere 8% more than in USA. If we were to have the exact same price in Sweden, it would be 4207 SEK. Really not that much of a difference.
Rayiner, your Pentium 3 class hardware comment is a little worrisome
What is worrisome? It’s a statement of fact.
most of todays ‘Celeron’ chips are derived from the Tualatin, and are for the most part Pentium III parts.
All current Celeron chips are based on the P4 core.
The Pentium M series chips are the mobile P4 parts
No, the mobile P4 parts are based on the P4 core. The Pentium M is a different processor entirely.
and they are clocked like the PowerPC’s not the desktop Pentium’s despite putting up similar performance numbers.
The Pentium-Ms are clocked like the G5s, not the G4s. And the Pentium-M is clock-for-clock *much* faster than the P3 from which it is derived. The P-M has a deeper pipeline, much larger cache (1-2MB vs 512KB for the G4 in the Mac Mini), a P4-inspired trace cache, improved branch prediction, and a number of other improvements. It performs clock-for-clock more like an Athlon64, not a Pentium3.
but benchmarks designed for measuring the performance of x86 hardware and performance of Windows
SPEC isn’t designed for x86 hardware at all. It’s been around for a very long time, and was designed for the workstation and server markets long before x86 broke into them. SPEC is the standard used to compare everything from Pentium 4s to Alphas, POWER5s, Itaniums, and Opterons. Remember, not even Apple denies the validity of SPEC anymore, one of the prime reasons the G5 got so much attention in scientific circles was because of its great SPEC scores.
but I don’t see anyone arguing that they are slow because the specInt scores are a little behind the current x86
Actually, they lose by a *lot* in SpecInt and SpecFP, to not just x86, but POWER and Itanium too. And a lot of people *are* complaining about it.
“Clearly, I am missing something.”
no comment
do you even know what you’re talking about? os x is a full fledged unix os. down to the X11 support, and base utilities.
Rayiner, your Pentium 3 class hardware comment is a little worrisome
What is worrisome? It’s a statement of fact.
Hilarious! You’re drinking too much of your own cool aid.
Whats this actually got to do with ‘os news’? In the last 20 headlines only 5-6 are actually about Operating Systems!
One thing I found funny was this constant ‘but the hardware is of better quality’ how do you know?!?
It’s the ultimate iPod docking station for only $499 usd!
If your time is worth nothing, buy a PC. If you consider your time valuable, get a Mac.
if u guys knew what u were talkin about… then u would have known that apple recently adjusted its priced in the EU to go with the difference in EU-DOLLAR…
yes it did take some time…. but thats how economy is….
every time the japanese yen or us dollar goes up or down 10 percent u cant adjust prices.. thats not how it goes…
It’s not raw speed that counts. My mom, 53 years old, had a 2.2ghz P4 machine for her photo stuff. She likes to make cards, books, calenders … the works. I spent hours explaining how all those applications worked and she barely managed to create things.
Then one day she said: “What about Video” en I had to enter the XP hell with Adobe premiere and DV camera’s using firewire on PC’s. It was a complete disaster. Sony DV camera, DELL PC, all licensed and purchased software, so don’t start saying that I used totally rubish hardware).
After that, she tried one of your Pentium 3’s. In this case it was a 1ghz G4 powerbook. Within one hour she was working on fotobooks with music and slideshows with music. She never succeded in doing that on that P4, but with Ilife she managed.
She plugged the Sony cam in the PB and iMovie popped up and she started importing the movie… no explanation, while on XP it was absolute horror to get the Cam working, even with the Sony software installed. The Mac did it all automatically.
She even creates her own DVD’s now …
So you might be right that the P4 has more processing power than that G4 you call a P3, but in the end you actually get things done with that G4. And that is what counts to most of us, you know.
Didn’t we just discuss this in another thread? Anyway, I’m bored with it already.
I think the real purpose of the DVI connector is not actually to allow high-end monitors (even though it’s accidentally possible, and a very nice option), but rather to have a neutral video output which you can convert any way you want, to suit your needs, without compromising quality: VGA, composite, S-Video, etc.
I think this is a very shrewd move and got me thinking that this is actually a stealth “Media Center” PC. I think Apple are trying at all costs to be associated with MS’s vision of the MC PC, but they are providing all the technology that’s necessary for such a usage in order to test the waters. Heck, up to yesterday they even had a third-party IR remote in the mini Mac accessories that can control iTunes, DVD player, and all sorts of apps (it’s prgrammable too).
You can use the box to play your DivX ripped movies, listen to your iTune music, watch a DVD, plug in a guitar to record your practice, plug in a RadioShark to listen and time-shift FM radio, etc: use the TV as a primary monitor and you can just pop in a DVD and watch it the way you would do with a normal living-room DVD player.
Why is it that suddenly I was pining for an Apple media center, while I think the same idea in the PC world is ridiculous? Reality Distorsion Field in full effect…
I just remembered that EVEN the iMac G5 still have only mini-VGA output (and so do the iBooks). The mini Mac has specs similar to the iBook, yet has a superior video output. It’s not even mini-DVI like the 12″ PB, but full-size DVI, which is more robust.
Something is really going on here.