The opensolaris.org community site is
now live. Source code (some 20,000 files) is available for
download, torrent
and perusal.
Mailing lists,
a project overview
and a community
portal are also live.
Opensolaris.org now live
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
to accomodate all Linux developers which are presumably happily jumping the ship and joining the Opensolaris.
“If you choose to install from pre-built archives, you will need:
A system installed with a suitable OpenSolaris distribution, which at this time is limited to Solaris Express: Community Release, Build 16 or newer.”
So to install OpenSolaris, I need Solaris which I have to register for ….
“You will then need to download the compilers specific to your platform .”
Then I need a compiler for a pre-built archive?
Forget it.
I like Sun…I like their technologies ranging from Java to Solaris (I havent played with it yet) and their hardware…they are decent…that would be the word I am looking for. But is it just me or does it seem that the head honchos of Sun are absolutely unable to appease the public because no matter how good their intentions are they seem to kind of mess it up! I am just posting this thought becasue of the above comment posted by Anonymous…
But is it just me or does it seem that the head honchos of Sun are absolutely unable to appease the public because no matter how good their intentions are they seem to kind of mess it up!
The “public” that are upset with Sun are mostly die-hard Linux fans. Anything that isn’t Linux or GPL isn’t good enough for them. While I don’t know if I’ll be running out to install OpenSolaris right now since I don’t have a particular use for it, I’d do it in a heart-beat if I had a serious server to put up. This is a good thing.
You don’t need compilers for a prebuilt BFU archive. I can’t see how we could have made it clearer on http://www.opensolaris.org/os/downloads/ .
Today, Solaris Express is the only distro. And yes, you need a free perpetual RTU from Sun for that. All true. But soon, that won’t be the case. Give it a chance and I think you will see other distros arrive. Thanks, -dp
The only problem Sun has is that they refuse to abandon Solaris and start pushing Linux unlike IBM and HP. Because of that people here, on /., and other such sites will continue to attack anything they do that is not Linux.
How many people here actually contribute to Linux other than to post the “Solaris sucks” or “it’s too hard”, or comments of a similar vein? If Linux back in the day had to get support from some of the people whose mindless diatribe I read here on a regular basis, Linux would be nowhere!
The only problem Sun has is that they refuse to abandon Solaris and start pushing Linux unlike IBM and HP. Because of that people here, on /., and other such sites will continue to attack anything they do that is not Linux.
This is a problem why? Please explain why sun should dump their complete OS they’ve been developing for years for something they have no control over.
This is stupid. Linux is a tool that works in some places. It does not work for all tasks. Why are do so many people that like linux insist that every other OS must be wiped from existance? And once this happens, will they then go on to asking for all distributions except for one to be wiped out too? Puzzling.
I knew someone would misunderstand me. 🙂
It isn’t a problem at all. We have several Solaris servers scheduled to be installed over the next year. Two of which are larger Ultra Sparc IV boxes where we plan on running Solaris 10 and containers.
Has the page changed? I can’t believe I managed to mix the two columns up!
Show me the code!!
lol
This is pointless.. SUN fanboys complain about Linux fanboys and vice versa.
Its all wah wah from both sides. SUN fanboys because no matter what they cant get the street cred linux has and Linux fanboys because SUN boxed in solaris from linux.. Its stupid.
I agree with a poster on the previous story about solaris “Open source is about not re-inventing the wheel”. Instead everyone uses it as a marketing term to show how big their shaft is.. Its retarded. Stop walling each other off and complaing about the other and do something constructive. Like liberate all software from all licenses merge it all together. then society would truly benefit.
But noooooo,,,, everyone is so concerned about money, I have to get money for adding some bits together…
You cant take it with you folks! But you can leave a legacy of cooperation.. Not that anyone cares what they leave the next generation.. Everyone is so self absorbed and in their own little world. Imagine what it would be like if Mathematics was treated like software is today… We would be nowhere folks…
OK.. end rant.
to @f-all-licences:
I don’t completely agree with you…
Even though it seems like the actual value of a string of bits should be zero, you may forget that the people that string these particular bits together are trading in some of their limited time here on earth. Does that not have some sort of value? Should coders not get paid? Should companies that pay the coders not try to protect what they paid for so that others cannot steal it? Open source is great, but it’s not for everyone.
So, how do I get the free t-shirt mentioned in the email Sun sent me?
I don’t understand, I’m new to Solaris, I don’t know these terms. What all do I need to get? The download page is very confusing.
Ok so we see an open source Solaris with the source code. Now WHAT DO I DO, sit down and compile to get a working OS. I don’t think this news warrants any attention. Recently in one of the blogs I saw grub being used. I am pretty sure Sun has a version of Open solaris minus proprietary code. So are there any plans to release a complete Opensolaris binary.
Sun doesn’t know how to form a community.
They want to have all the decision power.
I want to download a CD with open solaris on it and install it from a CD, like I do with all my Linux distros.
I guess its too much to ask of Sun, with their limited resources and all. Good thing I wasn’t expecting a live-CD.
at ~40MB of source, OpenSolaris can’t be much more than the kernel.
At this rate I doubt Linux has /anything/ to fear from OpenSolaris.
Again, Solaris isn’t a Toy. OpenSolaris isn’t a Toy. Don’t expect Anaconda to come with it.
Who will install OpenSolaris in a server or as the main SO in a workstation?
OpenSolaris is a toy.
Don’t expect Anaconda to come with it.
I’d be surprised if it includes a shell.
Is that it’s exceptional for a server os, but it has close to *zero* relevance as a desktop. Sure, some scientists doing hard core simulations or something *might* want to look into it if they have a full-time IT department that can setup Solaris properly.
The reason, however, why the desktop is so important is that it’s a means to the server. Microsoft has clearly shown this. There is a tremendous benefit to providing a similar interface and standard for GUI accessibility to server configuration options. The CLI is fine and should be there, but 99.9% of all commonly-used options should be accessible from a GUI.
That is why Linux is attractive to people, because it represents a high level of GUI integration and accessibility even if it hasn’t nearly delivered on this. It’s still such that most tools are not GUI-accessible from the beginning, but rather as an after-thought. It would be OK if people added a reasonable GUI in a short enough time period, but as of now there are all of these utilities that basically suck unless you use them from the command line, and it’s still hard to use them from the command line unless you become an expert in them. One example is iptables. The best example is probably SAMBA.
So, my opinion is that Solaris will not get much adoption by casual end-user developers who might then find some itch they want to scratch because it is basically god-awful pathetic in terms of a desktop OS that an end user can actually use. While I agree with the vision of “network computing” I think Sun needs to merge it with the whole “personal computer” revolution to make a “personal network computer”. I don’t want an OS that was designed for some big company to administer from their centralized servers.
Yeah, register, for free, which takes 20 seconds, oh, scary. Also are you sure you’re not allowed to copy it still?
Go away.
“I’d be surprised if it includes a shell.”
Well considering Solaris ships with the Bourne, C, Korn, Bash, Z, and TC shells, I think your probably safe there.
“Well considering Solaris ships with the Bourne, C, Korn, Bash, Z, and TC shells, I think your probably safe there.”
That’s very true, especially since you need to have Solaris already installed in order to install OpenSolaris.
“I’d be surprised if it includes a shell.”
Djeez take 10 seconds and actually look at the site will you
http://cvs.opensolaris.org/source/xref/usr/src/cmd/csh/
http://cvs.opensolaris.org/source/xref/usr/src/cmd/sh/
To the guy complaining there isn’t an iso, the project just launched today for gods sake. And to all whiners in general if you don’t like opensolaris use one of the other fine OS and shut up.
I, for one, welcome OpenSolaris to our great free software community. I truly believe that in the end this will benefit everyone who loves free software. I’m sure OpenSolaris will be able to form a new community of motivated and intelligent hackers that have new and innovative ideas, especially for the Gnome and KDE desktops.
I’m not worried that sh*tloads of Linux users will now migrate to OpenSolaris. Mostly because Solaris doesn’t have the driver support that Linux has.
Oh and I think competition for Linux is a good thing. It will force Linux hackers to make Linux even better to make sure it remains the most popular free software system.
Well I must say that their site is much doing much better job than any linux kernel info site. Code browsing is fast and elegant (And their code is very well documented!!) There are really nice documentation on whats going on.
Install the Express 16 version and just ignore that you didn’t compiled the open-sourced kernel. Big deal?
What a lot of people don’t seem to be getting is “OpenSolaris” is to “Solaris” as “kernel and app source” is to “Linux”, at the moment. You install Solaris, and then install the sources if you want.
From the bottom of my heart– thank you for you comments on the site. A lot of sweat and tears went into that. We’re hoping to open source the source browser itself as soon as we get some sleep, and then get through with the lawyers.
If you want it to be Open, I suggest you compile it yourself. Or else you run into Sun’s lovely binary license with these restrictions:
http://www.opensolaris.org/os/licensing/opensolaris_binary_license/
3. Restrictions.
(a) The copies of Software provided to you under this Agreement is licensed, not sold, to you by Sun. Sun reserves all rights not expressly granted.
(b) You may not modify Software. However if the documentation accompanying Software lists specific portions of Software, such as header files, class libraries, reference source code, and/or redistributable files, that may be handled differently, you may do so only as provided in the documentation.
(c) You may not rent, lease, lend or encumber Software.
(d) you do not remove or alter any proprietary legends or notices contained in the Software,
(e) Unless enforcement is prohibited by applicable law, you may not decompile, or reverse engineer Software.
(f) The terms and conditions of this Agreement will apply to any Software updates, provided to you at Sun’s discretion, that replace and/or supplement the original Software, unless such update contains a separate license.
(g) Software is confidential and copyrighted.
That certainly is NOT in the spirit of open source. Its proprietary, unless you compile it yourself. Although it does include a loop hole. If you can modify the documentation you can do just about anything you want with the Software.
I still prefer the GPL, at least I can trust it will never prevent me from reverse engineering or distributing the Software. And since I’ve already read it I don’t have to read any more legal documents.
The GPL is really very simple and elegant, compared to this mess. And it covers both source and binaries. GNU has no complicated tiered licensing scheme and they don’t use words like “open” in a way that may be misleading if you read the fine print. In fact, they chose not to use the word “open” because its already too confusing.. anybody can say their product is open, but the devil is in the details.
“at ~40MB of source, OpenSolaris can’t be much more than the kernel.”
You do realize that text files compress a ton (in this case, the unpacked archive is ~262 megs…that’s a LOT of code). Have you ever compiled 262 megs of code?
You hit the nail right on the head. Very well said.
Dave
Quote: “To the guy complaining there isn’t an iso, the project just launched today for gods sake. And to all whiners in general if you don’t like opensolaris use one of the other fine OS and shut up.”
What, Sun isn’t able to do iso images? Or they just want you to be *using* Sun Solaris in order to build opensolaris? That’s *really* open. NOT. Sun’s been working on this project for a fair while now, and to launch without iso images is a joke. A pathetic joke at that. And i’m not even looking at the technical side of things.
Sun’s CDDL is a joke, sorry to say. It’s not open. And it’s not free. It’s a license that suits them, so they can do what they want, when and where. I don’t want a license like that, and I urge others who feel the same way to boycott the project and educate others about exactly what Sun is really trying to do.
I think you’ll find that Sun is Microsoft’s lovertoy now, and all of this is just an effort to discredit, and slow down both true OSS and GPL software, including Linux. The proprietary boys have seen OSS and Linux in development and action and they don’t like it, because quite frankly it’s a better way to design software and it’s a *true* community development process. And they fear that the general public will realise how much controlling the proprietary giants have been doing, and for a long time, and they’re afraid that they’ll lose it all because quite frankly consumers will tell the large corporate interests like Microsoft & Sun to bugger off and go the OSS/GPL route. That means losing face, losing business, and worst of all, losing money. Poor lil diddums they are!
I have no pity for Sun, or it’s products – they dug their own hole and they can now go and live in it as far as i’m concerned.
Dave
Have you ever compiled 262 megs of code?
I’ve compiled literally tens of TB of code. Every day I compile around 20GB on average. And that’s just counting the compressed, stripped binaries, not the source.
..is there was a lot of hype about this OpenSolaris and not much to show for it..
If you’re going to hype an open source OS for 6+ months please have an iso or something more substantial than 40MB of compressed source. Or if that’s all you got, then there’s no point in trying to say its going to compete with Linux. Not until its got something worth talking about.
The source for the Solaris kernel is certainly something and very nice. And I’m surprised, it really does have a shell. I hope this little project grows into a whole open source OS someday. But right now its not complete.
I’m sorry if I expected more after reading about it for the last 6 months. I’ll have to reevaluate my expectations.
From the bottom of my heart– thank you for you comments on the site. A lot of sweat and tears went into that. We’re hoping to open source the source browser itself as soon as we get some sleep, and then get through with the lawyers.
I have to say that it is really a well-designed site. And Ialso agree that the source browser is great.
Does the Linux project even have a source browser? Last few times I checked, kernel.org didn’t.
The CDDL is an OSI approved license. So it is open and its not a joke. Humorously entertaining to us FSF advocates, maybe, but no joke.
Boycott is a strong word. I wouldn’t recommend anyone avoid the CDDL for any purpose or Sun systems. Its your time and money. Sun can save you some time and not cost you as much money as they used to. Possibly save you some money for certain projects. Their OS is free, licensing costs significantly less with them than with Microsoft, for example.
I know the GPL will protect my interests and won’t let any corp take my property from me without giving anything back. But Sun is giving us lots of cool stuff. I doubt they would take BSD code without contributing bug fixes, etc.
Anyone can choose to give their property to anyone without asking anything in exchange and it won’t bother me. I’ll just smirk and nod and try to remember their name and affiliation.
–alright, last post in this thread, sorry I took up so much space.
i have to say, i thought they would pass off the source in an inaccessible way – disouraging people from looking at it.. instead they’ve made an excellent source browser…
i am very very impressed.
i’m also impressed with solaris 10 x86 running on my dell laptop – very snappy.
now hopefully linux/bsd can make improvements in things like dtrace, bsm auditing, …
I’d give it a try if ndiswrapper gets ported over. Without wireless it’s a no-go for me.
Also, I wonder if Sun has been in contact with ATI about drivers. Not as important because you can always use xorg’s drivers.
So is gentoo going to put out a distro based on the solaris kernel? I thought i heard some rumblings about that a while back.
@Fozzie
I’d give it a try if ndiswrapper gets ported over. Without wireless it’s a no-go for me.
It has been ported, but I believe it’s still held up in legal and engineering tape. SUN engineers are using it internally already.
Also, I wonder if Sun has been in contact with ATI about drivers. Not as important because you can always use xorg’s drivers.
Don’t know, but I doubt ATi will do anything. ATi doesn’t even have their Linux support up to par with their Windows drivers yet, and they keep stating that they can’t really do that until the Linux market is bigger to justify the costs.
So is gentoo going to put out a distro based on the solaris kernel? I thought i heard some rumblings about that a while back.
Well, I know that Portage should be available for Solaris soon. I don’t know that Gentoo will be putting out a distribution of it though they certainly could.
Too bad this erupts into a silly flamewar, but I guess that’s pretty predictable. As for me, I say this is awesome. I mean really fucking awesome. I downloaded it, and have been looking through the code. It’s totally clean and well organized. Only good will come of this. I can’t wait until more pieces are added to it, like the excellent Solaris man pages. I haven’t installed Solaris at home yet, but I’m going to see if it’s supported on any of the machines I have and give it a go. This may be the holy grail of open source OSes!
Does the Linux project even have a source browser? Last few times I checked, kernel.org didn’t.
http://www.kernel.org/git/>
Looks quite similar to me, (though kernel.org has many more trees than the fledgling OpenSolaris).
<A Href=”http://www.kernel.org/git/“>http://www.kernel.org/git/
maybe we’ll start seeing specialised distros appearing on the distrowatch top-ten? specialised for desktop, server, embedded …
now hopefully linux/bsd can make improvements in things like dtrace, bsm auditing, …
well.. ironically, of those two, BSD will be the folks who can directly benifit. CDDL files remain under CDDL and BSD files remain under BSDL.
a few native wireless drivers are coming down the line i hear. intel 2100, atheros chipsets, etc. perhaps a few nevada/solaris express builds from now..
Someone tell me, quite plainly, what is wrong about the license. I hear complaints, but no statements really backing them up. I’m sure it’s no BSD, but what’s wrong?
in the past, Linux would have to be built from a non-free (in terms of license) operating system minix, but afterwards it’s all free software as later on it became possible to build Linux on Linux. would the same be applicable to opensolaris? as in when i try to build it from solaris the resulting binaries required for opensolaris (kernel and userland) to run would essentially be all open source?
Lovely. good work Sun. A pitty apple didn’t decide to try Sparc for their new boxes. :p
All in all, the new Open Solaris looks very nice and very organized.
Kudos.
Disregard Linux Fanboys that cannot live without their GPL Stuff.
An Apple User.
> This may be the holy grail of open source OSes!
When will the astroturfing stop?
That’s all I ask.
It seems like Linux users believe in the concept of free as in beer but not free as in choice.
Some people don’t care if an OS is proprietary or has corporate backing. If you don’t like it, don’t use it, but there is no need to shoot down others’ hard work.
OpenSolaris looks good. Keep up the good work Sun.
Competition is good, it keeps everyone on their toes.
The CDDL is file-based, so its not viral like the GPL.
It’s more liberal than the GPL, but almost all open source licenses are.
Nobody has a problem with the CDDL except for GPL zealots.
> The CDDL is file-based, so its not viral like the GPL.
Some of us actually like Free Software and want it to survive.
Please don’t judge Linux users and developers based on a bunch of trolls on OSNEWS. 14 year olds with a keyboard are arrogant.
Most Linux users are responsible community members and realize that _ALL_ opensource contributions are good for choice and help everyone.
Without Choice where we would all be looking forward to Longhorn!
Ok, I’m realy confused.
So now we have OpenSolaris.
So can I take, for example the TCP/IP stack from Solaris and compile it into Linux, for example if I wanted to start my own Linux distro. Could I use code from Solaris in my Linux distro? And then distribute it under GPL like Linux is?
Is that possible?
Sorry if this is a stupid question but I don’t have much understanding about all this licensing stuff.
Really, it’s a very good thing that Sun published this source.
Frist, It’s good to see what does it mean solaris is the best “unix” (as Sun named it).
Second, a huge domain of UNIX, known as AT&T SVR4 has been published and SCO blessed.
This is a _great_ day for *NIX of all flavors (no matter what some may say)! Choice is _always_ good for the educated user and the OpenSolaris project provides the open source *NIX user/community with a new choice. Embrace it if you wish….ingnore it if you wish….the choice is yours.
It is apparent that alot of work has already been contributed by many inside and outside of Sun, thanks for all your past and future efforts!
GO*NIX
1) can anyone compare ipfilter in opensolaris with the bsd/linux one
2) is ethereal ported to open solaris. i do all my work with these tools and would hate to loose them.
3) if they have equivalent please advize
Ethereal is available at http://www.sunfreeware.com
Try sunscreen lite in place of ipfilter
http://www.sun.com/software/securenet/securenet3/
“Ethereal is available at http://www.sunfreeware.com ”
snoop is also a useful tool available in the Solaris world.
OK, here’s a quick summary of the diffrent licenses and the people that prefer one to the other (being as objective as possible).
BSD License:
Software released with the BSD license can be used by anyone, in any program, anytime, for any reason. You can change the code, add stuff, remove stuff, re-release the modifications under a different license or just keep your changes to yourself. You can download the source to FreeBSD, add some stuff to it then call it KickAssOS and sell copies of it for $10 million per copy if you want. The only real restriction is that you have to admit that you used the FreeBSD source as the foundation for your new OS.
Now correct me if I’m wrong here… but you can’t take BSD code and use it directly in a GPL program. BSD doesn’t care what you do with the code, but the GPL has restrictions that say you can’t use software released under a different license or something like that… so it’s GPL being a pain, not BSD. (Again, I coudl be wrong, but that’s my understandnig of it.)
The people that like the BSD License:
Lots of people love the BSD license because you can do whatever you want with the software. Companies like it because they can use it as a foundation for their own software without worrying about sharing their hard work and improvements that they’ve added and don’t have to worry about their competitors (other for-profit companies) mooching off of their R&D that they’re paying good money for.
BSD programmers like it because the code they write is ultimately useful to anyone that has a need for it, whether that next person works for a big corporation or is programming in his parent’s basement.
——————————-
The GPL license:
Software released under the GPL license has the main restriction that the source code for that software must also be available to the public. Anyone must be able to see your source code and must be allowed to change it. The changes that people make to the source code must also be released to the public under the same GPL. This is why the haters say it’s like a virus because any code that touches a GPL program must be released back as GPL.
People that like the GPL:
GPL people believe in sort of a software socialism. We should all work together for the greater good of society and make code that other people can use without paying for it. They don’t want some big evil corporation to profit from their hard work (that they often do without getting paid for in the first place) so those big evil corporations must release any code changes back to the public.That way the big evil profit making corporation is forced to contribute to the greater good of everyone. Having all these tools and programs out in the open will keep programmers in the future from wasting time and effort by constantly re-inventing the wheel.
————————————————–
The CDDL license:
Sun can explain it better than I can: http://opensolaris.org/os/about/faq/licensing_faq/
I could be wrong here, but this is what I get out of it… Sun couldn’t use the GPL because Solaris has a lot of software inside that was created by other companies. Much of this software doesn’t belong to SUN, so it’s not theirs to simply give away to the public. The CDDL resembles the BSD license becase you can mix that code with anything and there’s nothing in the CDDL preventing it. So Sun can release their code in the CDDL and that allows their open code to be used along side the secret code they borrowed from other people.
The GPL can’t use the CDDL code however. So you can say the non-mixnig of GPL and CDDL code is the GPL’s fault for requiring that everything be GPL, or you can say it’s the Sun’s fault for not just using GPL since the GPL was already around in the first place. Depends on which angle you’re bitching from.
———————————————–
My opinion: I like BSD.
The problem with the GPL is same problem communism had (at least in my opinion). People and organizations are selfish by nature and they still need to make a living and feed their families. While the idea of everyone pitching in for the good of society and not for themselves sounds great, the simple fact is that people still do what’s in their own best interest. Programmers need to make a living and the easiest way is to work for a company that makes money.
BSD allows you to donate to the good of society with no strings attached (including evil profit making companies that feed their employees and pay taxes so we can have roads and an ass kicking military that keeps us all safe).
If they were really interested in *true* open source, they’d have released open solaris under the GNU GPL
Sun has explained multiple times that the GPL could not be used because they weren’t going to be able to release everything at once. If it was GPL licensed, no one but Sun could redistribute an entire working OS until all those bits were replaced by GPL licensed bits – by using a license that allows mixing with files under other licenses, including those without source available, other people can redistribute it and make their own distros, bringing it far closer to what most people associate with *true* open source. Perhaps not ideologically pure, but a lot more practical.
PPPFFFTT!! Where do people get his communism stuff.
Read this with an open mind:
“When a private individual mediates an undertaking, however directly connected it may be with the welfare of society, he never thinks of soliciting the cooperation of the Government, but he publishes his plan, offers to execute it himself, courts the assistance of other individuals, and struggles manfully against all obstacles. Undoubtedly he is often less successful that the State might have been in his position; but in the end the sum of these private undertakings far exceeds all that the Government could have done.”
This is Alexis de Tocqueville’s definition of what Democracy is after visiting America for the first time and learning what it was really like.
That sounds more like open source than communism to me.
Is it possible to comment on Solaris without mentioning the L word?
Solaris is it’s own operating system with a giant installed base. This is a huge development for Sun and it holds a lot of promise. Congrats to them and all the best! (now I’ll go back to installing Fedora Core 4
That does sound like OpenSource but GPL doesn’t define Open Source. GPL is just one of the many licences included under the domain of open source. It is not hard to view GPL as a communist or socialist licence, it is just a point of view. While I don’t see it as such, other people might and they have a right to.
I am also sick of GPL fanatics bagging out everything else. In the end they will end up become what they started out against, fascists.
Making money is not evil and nor should it be seen as such. If someone wants to make money writing software, it is their choice. If they dont want to release the source under GPL it is their choice. Condemning them for that is narrow minded and borders on ultra right wing behaviour.
Quote: “Most Linux users are responsible community members and realize that _ALL_ opensource contributions are good for choice and help everyone.”
And i’m *not* responsible? Please. I like the GNU GPL – very much. It gives me freedom. Sun’s CDDL does not.
As to the GPL being ‘viral’ I find that offensive. It ensures that improvements go *back* to the community, and are not hoarded by corporate bastard entities like Sun, Apple, Microsoft et al. The bastards are kept honest. If, as a developer, I choose to use the GNU GPL, knowingly allowing others to copy, modify and of course return the community, what gives you the right to say that’s wrong and viral? That was my choice on perceived freedom.
By nature, man is greedy (not to mention stupid). Man would rather fuck his mates over to make a buck than act like a mature being and work for the benefit of the species. That’s not communism, that’s a mature species. Since most of mankind is rather immature, and self centered, this explains the plethora of software licenses out there that protect someones interested, rather than empowering everyone for a community benefit. A True community benefit.
Dave
Everyone is sick of everyone else because everyone’s opinion on what they like best is different.
That’s what makes the world go round, unfortunately it’s more vocal on the internet because it can be.
being as objective as possible
Really?
GPL people believe in sort of a software socialism.
First, let’s look at how you start this sentence. Saying “GPL people” seems like we’re stereotyping people who prefer a certain license over the other. And saying they believe in software socialism is bizarre. There are many corporations that use and release GPL software that are very capitalist in nature. RedHat, for example, makes liberal use of the GPL while making a profit.
They don’t want some big evil corporation to profit from their hard work
You mention this big evil corporation a few times in your objective post. Is that honestly being objective? Sounds very biased to me.
Software released under the GPL license has the main restriction that the source code for that software must also be available to the public.
Where does it say your souce code must be released to the public? You must not have read the GPL. Please, go read the license:
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html
It says if you sell or distribute software with the GPL license you must offer your source code to any customers that request it, but you can charge for the cost of the media used to copy and transfer it, basicly S&H. That is far from making the source code available to the general public. What this means, however, is if your customers choose they can release your source code publicly as granted by the license.
So if your business plan is to take thousands of man-hours of GPL source code, build a binary application and sell it without giving away any source code, you should rethink your plan. Use BSD or CDDL code instead, that’s what its designed for. Anything licensed with the GPL explicitly forbids “code theft”. Which is exactly what you are doing if you take from someone without paying or obtaining permission and try to sell it to someone else. Its like downloading mp3s and selling CDs instead of making your own music. Also known as piracy, if you agree with the MPAA, Microsoft, BSA, etc.
The BSD style licenses make it difficult to pirate or steal their software, you can do just about anything short of defacing the copyright notices.
The CDDL says you have to give Sun the ability to use your source code, or something like that. I read it a while back, so I’m not 100% sure on this. But it is more complex than both the BSD and GPL licenses, so unless you understand license agreements or know a lawyer I’d suggest more research before trying to use it like a BSD license.
“OpenSolaris is nice and all; however, I will stick with GNU/Linux. Because GNU/Linux is well-supported, under a non-draconian liscense, and has excellent performance.”
What happened to all the nay sayers, stating that this would never happen. Anyone that said it was going to happen was advised that they were telling a falshood. Now, it has come to fruition and what do we get? States listed above.
Grow up kids and deal with it.
Quote: “Making money is not evil and nor should it be seen as such”
Money is most certainly ‘evil’. It causes marriage breakdowns, it causes the divide of the rich and the poor, the haves and the have nots. It means those with money have more legal rights than those who are poor, and without money. It means those that have money can afford medical treatment, and those without die. You must obviously lead a very sheltered life.
Dave
I believe this pretty much covers the whole anti-GPL arguement to releasing source code publicly..
The CDDL says:
3.1. Availability of Source Code.
Any Covered Software that You distribute or otherwise make available in Executable form must also be made available in Source Code form and that Source Code form must be distributed only under the terms of this License. You must include a copy of this License with every copy of the Source Code form of the Covered Software You distribute or otherwise make available. You must inform recipients of any such Covered Software in Executable form as to how they can obtain such Covered Software in Source Code form in a reasonable manner on or through a medium customarily used for software exchange.
http://www.sun.com/cddl/cddl.html
So I suggest reading the whole licensing before making any assumptions. Its definitely not the BSDL.
Calling money evil shows how naaive you are. I suggest you go to the convenience store and ask for a pack of chips on goodwill. Do you have a job? Do you expect remuneration or do they pay you in high and lofty ideals?
Did you want to go back to the barter system? There would have been no industry as such without a profit motive. Money does make the world go round and wanting to earn a decent remuneration to give your family a decent lifestyle is in no way evil. Social disparities existited before money. The caveman who was the better hunter ate better and wore better furs. Would you ask him to share meat under the GPL. Be prepared for clubbing to the head.
What happened to all the nay sayers, stating that this would never happen.
I think I said “I’ll believe it when I see it.” But I was thinking they would be releasing Solaris, or something that closely resembles it as OpenSolaris. This is definitely not what I thought all that hype was about. Not that I’m complaining. Its very nice of them to give us a peek at this source.
Grow up kids and deal with it.
Or what? You’ll build your own OpenSolaris system and compete with Linux? Lol!
Money is most certainly ‘evil’. It causes marriage breakdowns, it causes the divide of the rich and the poor, the haves and the have nots. It means those with money have more legal rights than those who are poor, and without money. It means those that have money can afford medical treatment, and those without die. You must obviously lead a very sheltered life.
So David Pastern, with that post and his other posts in the thread, inadvertantly proves that a lot of the GNU/GPL zealots are really commie hippies. Thanks David.
David Pastern and his cohorts in this thread and elsewhere turn people off. Lots of people just don’t want to be associated with commie fascists like him and the others in the GNU/FSF crowd. It’s great we have choice.
“””The changes that people make to the source code must also be released to the public under the same GPL”””
not quite true, you arent required to release your changes at all as long as you arent distributing your work!
—————————–
“””It says if you sell or distribute software with the GPL license you must offer your source code to any customers that request it, but you can charge for the cost of the media used to copy and transfer it, basicly S&H.”””
not just your customers as you put it but basically anyone has the right to receive the modified source code
You hit the nail on the head.
Depending on the day RedHat could be evil because they are making money, even though they are one of the main reasons Linux is so popular.
Sun is evil because they make money, even though you can download and run Solaris for free, which is what a good majority of people really want anyway.
Then if they can’t pick on companies that make money, they pick on Debian for daring to keep a stable release around for a long time and not making people upgrade all the time.
It is best to just speak about the facts of what each OS can do and avoid the politics/religion.
Frank is obviously one of those with money!
oh how i would love to see the day he is ranked with the have-nots and it finally dawns on him that we arent commie hippies but instead are simply people where reality has set in and now we see things with a different eye since the position we held in the “haves” was lost to us….
Software licenses never assume the user has rights. Often they go out of their way to restrict the user and limit their rights, especially with regards to warranty, to protect the merchant. This is capitalism, after all. It is only illegal for the merchant to take their pound of flesh if they forget to mention the blood somewhere in their contract. This is why we regulate the hell out of capitalism. Its not a safe world out there, folks.
Back to software licenses. They restrict your freedom. That’s what copyright is all about. Otherwise you’d run rampant stealing and selling things that don’t belong to you. So when they want to give you freedom, like the right to steal, they have to do it in a way that also restricts your freedom, like the right to horde.
The GPL simply forces its merchants to grant their customers the right of access to the source code.
What this means is once the customer pays for the product they get the whole product and the right to do anything they want with it, including sell it.
But its also legal to build a Product that includes GPL software and the Solaris and BSD kernels and a bunch of commercial software under any license. These things are modular.
However, the GPL protects its customers so viciously that it can’t be used for libraries. So they made the LGPL to provide similar protection for libraries that allow commercial binary-only software. What this means is if you want to write an application for Linux you get a lot of free tools to write it with that won’t force you to use the GPL.
You can write commercial pay-only software with online registration and authentication with GNU tools and sell it for all the money in the world. We won’t try and stop ya. That’s what competition is all about. We might even fix some bugs in the toolchain, libraries or system if you point them out before we hunt them down. The goal here is to provide the customer with a complete operating system for free, unencumbered by patents and restrictions that prevent you from doing what you want with your hardware, and a software library that gives you a head start, and a hint of what true love really means.
Sorry Eugenia – some of the below is really off topic, so I felt it needed to be expressed. I won’t be too upset if you moderate it down 😉
I had to laugh at people calling me a ‘commie’. Communism had money. It relied on money. It had trade.
As an example of what I mean – how many of your like Star Trek: The Next Generation I wonder? A “true blue” American show. Set in the 24th century, you’ll note one thing: they don’t have money, people work for the benefit of the community, of the species. Money doesn’t exist, and has no importance, it was seen as a failure of man in the 20th and 21st centuries. This was something Gene Roddenberry was very specific about. I don’t remember too many people calling him a “commie”.
As yawn has pointed out, the GPL ensures that people who take, return back to the community. Microsoft took the BSD net stack, because it was too lazy and lacked technical ability to write it’s own efficient network stack. Did it return to community? Nope. Microsoft is trying to hijack email, internet and document open standards and bastardise it to suit its own needs and ensure it’s monopolisation of the market continues unabated.
The GPL isn’t so much zealotry, but an admission to ones self that the current way of doing things isn’t right. It’s harmful to society and mankind in the long run. Do you think the poor will continuously stand for being maltreated by the rich, powerful and those that ‘have’? Nope. By nature, man is self centred, greedy and selfish. Money works perfectly into that framework.
I personally believe that software patents should be disposed of, because they do more harm than good. They benefit the few, they are not equally available to everyone. Tell me, I discover something cool, but i’m poor. I don’t have the US 10 grand to patent it. Microsoft steals it/finds out about it etc. They patent it. Who wins? Sure, I can sue them, but I won’t stand a chance – no money. Microsoft has lots of money. Copyrights? Ever heard of public domain? The whole idea of the founding fathers and public domain was for a limited period of copyright to compensate those who invent for their troubles, but after that, the work(s) would return to the public, for the best interests of the public. Where has copyright gone in the past 20 years? Out the window, that’s what. Copyrights have been extended to benefit the rich, powerful and ‘haves’, to the detriment of the public, who previously had a right to public domain material, for the benefit of the public – or society as you might want to call it.
So, you can call me a commie. In the next 100-200 years you’ll see things change. Or mankind as a species will self destruct…
Dave
A forum full of people arguing about something they have never tried.
“So David Pastern, with that post and his other posts in the thread, inadvertantly proves that a lot of the GNU/GPL zealots are really commie hippies. Thanks David.”
It doesn’t prove anything. Just because one individual is emotional and flaming, and this one person likes Linux and the GPL, doesn’t mean that either he is a commie hippy, or others that also like Linux and the GPL are commie hippies. You’re stereotyping because of the emotional posts of one individual.
Reality is quite different from your knee-jerk emotional post. The fact is the vast majority of Linux kernel developers are paid to do so, and are employees of corporations like IBM, HP, Red Hat, Novell, Mandriva, Dell, and other companies. And more than likely most of these developers are pretty mainstream, regular people, and not communists in any way, shape or form. Linus Torvalds himself is paid to develop and maintain the kernel, he’s married, has children, and is about as regular guy as you can get.
BTW – I’m a Linux user. I like the GPL. I work for a proprietary software company, and support my wife and children and pay a mortgage with the money I earn working for that proprietary software company. I also think Solaris and CDDL have great potential (I’d like to try the Solaris version of the Java Desktop System). Thus, I like open source, of various licenses, and I like proprietary software, if it serves my purposes (and supports my family). It all has it’s place, and none of it will go away.
“David Pastern and his cohorts in this thread and elsewhere turn people off. Lots of people just don’t want to be associated with commie fascists like him and the others in the GNU/FSF crowd. It’s great we have choice.”
Commie fascists? That’s about as big of an oxymoron as I’ve ever seen. Did you realize that communism and fascism are pretty much polar opposites on the socio-political scale? Apparently not. Or perhaps you were just blurting out jibberish in knee-jerk tourettes syndrome fashion. lol
Anyway, I wish an article/thread either about Solaris or Linux wouldn’t erupt into a childish flame war.
What’s really silly about it is that the trolling Linux fanboys and the trolling Solaris fanboys should really see more eye to eye. Afterall, both Solaris and Linux are excellent implementations of Unix, and share a lot of design philosophy, functionality, usefullness, and development methods. They even share a lot of the same tools (Emacs, gcc, Perl, Gnome, TCP/IP, C, etc). Thus it can be quite baffling how the fanboys in both camps can be so at each other’s throats all the time.
Oh well, such is life on OSNews.
Not so long ago, people used to say that Hell would froze over before Apple switchs its processors from IBM/Motorola to Intel. And some also argued about the possibility of an “Open” Solaris (I´m ashamed to say that I were one of this particular group… :-))
I still am looking forward to see if Sun can get their act together and pull this one. But it is good to see that they already gave the kickstart… I wish them all the luck on this.
And people from all camps: Please let´s keep this conversation on a civilized level because, in the end, this is about another *NIX joining the crew and this is as good as it sounds. 🙂
Thus it can be quite baffling how the fanboys in both camps can be so at each other’s throats all the time.
I think we tend to take things like capitalism too seriously. Its almost a religion for some of us. Or anti-religion.. We form groups and reenforce our opinions until they explode.
But I do enjoy the debate.
I keep seeing people bringing up the same tired argument against the BSD license…
– the BSD license allows people/organizations/companies to take your work and not contribute back
…this is certainly true, but I think what is lost on several GPL supporters is that some of us (including myself) could care less if people contribute anything back while using my work.
Code released under the BSD license is intented as a gift. If someone finds my code to be useful, that’s great, if they make money off of it, oh well. I fail to see how I’m losing out if I never intended to make money from the software in the first place.
When you donate to your charity of choice how often do you expect to get anything back from it? Every time you give blood to the Red Cross do you expect a blood transfusion in return?
(Anyway, this whole subject is terribly off-topic and I wouldn’t be offended at all if this got modded down.)
I agree with you 100%, I am a FreeBSD/OpenBSD/Solaris/Windows XP user and I agree with what you say. When a piece of software is released under the BSD licence it is given away to the people to do with it as they please (fguratively speaking). It is truly charitable. If the salvation army started putting terms to the homeless people it wouldn’t really be charity now would it.
Linux has an online kernel source code browser, though, it is not at kernel.org.
http://www.softwarerevolution.com/jeneral/open-source-docs.html
flamewars are entertaining, when you’re not with either side
To those that bash the GPL, its funny to see how they bash the GPL when Linux grown so fast in such a short time, much larger than the BSDL or the CDDL. Linux already has more user space than OSX, where’s BSD? wheres Solaris? and to say that sharing software is communist, well you know what, thats how it was before the days of MS they were the first to push for propiratary systems, but its funny because no matter what OS License you use its still sharing software so that would make you a commie too.
For all the fan fair over Solaris, and its license and the ones that say the BSDL is better, you know what, BSD or Solaris will probably never get as big as Linux. I’m not even a Linux fanatic and I can see this, did MS go after a BSD or a Solaris Developer, no they whent after a Linux developer because Linux is its main threat, I’ve never heard them say anything about BSD or Solaris.
The GPL is there for two reasons, so we dont have to keep making the same software over and over and to protect the rights of its users. If you cant agree with that then maybe you shouldnt be using any OSS. All OSS is a good choice, I agree with getting rid of software patents, they do more harm than good.
“If the salvation army started putting terms to the homeless people it wouldn’t really be charity now would it”
and if a homeless person managed to better himself and became a wealthy person but yet turned a blind eye to those that are needy then what? If you was one of the people that helped him get back on his feet and something happened and now you was the homeless person how would you feel knowing you did what was “right” and helped him but now he refuses to do the same…..
he is technically under no obligation to give back! he can enjoy his wealth, spit in your face and call you trash and ignorant because you actually helped him. If everyone was a “good” person and did give back then we wouldnt need the GPL but as it is I like that the GPL makes people give back for the most part….
yes this has been a gross over exageration – too much coffee
1) with regards to the bashing, look where most of it’s coming from and especially where most of it starts from.
2) if they were really going after the Linux developer, then they wouldn’t put an anti-viral mechanism in the CDDL.
3) the GPL really doesn’t protect the rights of its users — it replaces them. It has become popular simply because it’s memetic as it appeals to the egos of certain peoples and gains influence as it spreads.
4) you cannot truly promote OSS if you want to turn it into a monoculture. In other words, “don’t get religion”.
5) the sharing of software you speak of before the days of MS were done in the BSD spirit–one of altruism. Which is why they weren’t “communists”. It takes real sacrifice to release under BSDL so it never did become a meme.
The CDDL is compatible with the GPL, completely; it’s the GPL that’s not compatible with the CDDL. It’s like a white supremacist (GPL) and a non-white kid (CDDL). The kid doesn’t mind playing with the white supremacist, but the racist guy would never let be seen withthe kid.
I think this analogy is necessary, because it’s apparent that nothing refined and sensible is able to enter the superthick skulls of some (misinformed/uninformed) people.
Let me repeat: CDDL doesn’t mind GPL code, it’s the GPL that can’t stand mixing with CDDL (and several other licenses).
memetic?
emetic maybe? hope not!
OH!!! meme gotcha…. never seen it as memetic…
got doctorate!
no racist analogy is EVER needed…. racism needs to stop being used as a analogy or anything, i wish the word was removed from the dictionary and the whole idea erased from peoples heads…. no tinfoil hat on this one!
Yeah I agree that the analogy about racism is pretty dumb. Its more like this:
You have a 10 year old kid and a 16 year old kid. The 10 year old kid doesnt mind hanging out with the 16 year old kid, but the 16 year old kid would rather be dead than be seen in public hanging out with the 10 year old.
“1) with regards to the bashing, look where most of it’s coming from and especially where most of it starts from.”
I’m not entirely sure which camp you are refering to, but it seems to me to be starting from, and coming from both sides equally. I see tons of bashing from Linux/GPL fanboys against Sun/Solaris/CDDL (“evil, untrustworthy Sun”, “CDDL is only good for Sun”, etc) and plenty of bashing from Sun/Solaris/CDDL fanboys (“Linux/GPL is communism”, “Linux fanboys are commie hippies”, “Linux fans should get out of their parents basements”, etc). These comments are all equally childish.