This month’s Wired magazine has a terriffic story about a team of students from a high school in an economically depressed part of Phoenix, who took part in an underwater-robot building competition against students from the top universities in the country — and won. All of the students are undocumented Mexican immigrants who don’t qualify for most financial aid or even in-state tuition, and therefore can’t afford to attend college, in the US, Mexico, or anywhere. When I read the article I determined to try to do something to help give these kids their chance, and I was delighted to discover that their faculty advisor has set up a scholarship fund for them, and I’m about to donate some money to help. I’d like to encourage OSNews readers to read the story, and if they feel the same way, to donate.
In the most cyncial terms, the reason that you take illegal immigrants and you school them anyway is because educating them costs far less to society than having an underclass caste seething in our ghettos, which costs a hell of a lot of money and people to police, let alone deport. While punishing illegal immigrants via executive power might intuitively feel like the best recourse, it more a knee-jerk response than a thought-out solution.
The world at large, and especially our southern neighbors, can and will continue to furnish many more desperate people than we can ever equal with competently trained border guards. I have a liberal outlook on events, but I do recognize that immigration controls are necessary now when they were not as necessary a hundred years ago. America can not afford an open door policy, or so the economic majors tell me, and so stemming the tide at the border is prudent, if callous.
But I am not so sure about illegal immigrants already intermeshed into the fabric of this country. We cannot deny that we have already invested a lot into these four kids; indeed, that is something most of this board is hopping mad about. But they show promise, they have rewarded that investment, and throwing them back across the border now blunts that just when that arrangement, however illegal, was beginning to bear fruit. For all the Keystone Kops and Yosemite Sams on this board who are all hootin’ tootin’ angry and will tar and feather me for making exceptions to immigration policy; do not prosecutors cut deals with the guilty in exchange for a greater good – future testimony or the revelation of evidence that otherwise would have been lost? It is not a flippant issue of black and white with the law, and such tossed off comments about social justice are actually injustice. This is about shades of gray. I say we have more to gain from these kids going to American colleges than we have to lose. Going farther, if in the future, other Mexican immigrants continue to beat the pants off our engineers from MIT and the like, we should naturalize them as well. I want that kind of genius here. Do you think Albert Einstein had to go through the normal channels when he applied for his damn green card? These kids are no Einsteins, at least yet, but I point out its not like we’ve never made exceptions before.
Finally, the idea that these kids are somehow guilty of a felony is disingenuous and disgusting. One kid came over in the trunk of a car when he was 11. The only person that young I’ve ever heard get slapped with a felony shot a bunch of schoolmates with a rifle. Perhaps people will argue that every second they stay here adds to their crime, and that thus, the two that have since turned 18 are now racking up time at Arizona State (Penitentiary) like electric meters on the side of a house. Of course, we can’t really imprison them, can we, because even then they will still be violating American soil, and sucking up far more tax dollars than it would take to school them in the first place. Maybe we would expedite them to the Mexican authorities? Would they really care enough to prosecute them?
I see no point in calling these kids felonious. Really, its just a way to incite anger against them when there should be only sympathy. These kids are not even accessories to the original damn crime; when their parents said “lets go junior, we’re running the border tonight” the kid could’ve said “no, dad, that’s illegal – I guess this is where me and you go our separate ways?” No, that’s ridiculous. No court in this country, or even in Mexico, would declare a fifth grader emancipated.
Anyway, I can’t even begin to figure out all the outrage over the “leeching” these kids are supposedly doing. I’ve been in the country since birth, and am now 20 years old and am enrolled in college, and quite frankly all I’VE ever done is leech. I admire the kids out there putting themselves through college, but there are only so many jobs out there that high school grads can use to support even the cheapest college education. I’ve never paid taxes, yet I receive the benefits of higher education. I may as well throw myself across the border with those kids.
In fact, if one of them has a car, we could carpool.
In any event, even if you want to send those criminals back where they came from, donate to the damned fund anyway. It’ll pay for university in Mexico if it don’t pay for university in America, and for the greater human good these kids need to get a degree SOMEWHERE.
“do you live alone on a desert island?
so you are telling me that if you decide murder and theft are “correct” than society shall observe your decision??”
well, what if the “Great” law is telling you to murder other people ect. (Like Nazi Germany, Stalins USSR, ect.)
would you follow?
guess so
after all its the law…
breaking it makes you a criminal
and thats bad
who do you think makes the laws?
God?
I’m an Australian, so I don’t feel I really have any right to criticize American policy. But I will say this, some of the comments I’ve read on this article make me very very worried for the state of the world. Very worried. In my personal opinion, people like these kids should be encouraged, not shown the door. Sad thing is, the same thing would probably happen in Australia.
I live in Mexico and Genius people don’t get support here, that’s why they have to migrate to other countries my advice to you Americans is to use that kid talent or other countrie that is not Mexico and prolly a competence of the USA will.
Is always better to have a genious working for you than working for the enemy or the competence.
Man just because their “undocumented” dosn’t mean their human. Come on, they even rocked this underwater robot competition. I sense alittle envy from the haters.
Personally I think MIT should offer them scholarships.
I do not condone the idea of illegal immigrants but illegal immigrants and other non-citizens still pay sales tax and can be drafted.
Hi. Im a frecuent OSNews reader from Mexico,
so that means I´m not an U.S. undocumented immmigrant.
To the O.S. News editor:
I thank you, first, for providing the story,
which I think its a good article for the OSNews webiste,
even if there wasn’t anyfund, I think
it deserve to be here. And the same goes
if it was about asiatic or black kids.
Second, thanks for the fund, wheter It works,
and I hope it works.
To the rest of the readers:
I always like to listen to both sides of the story.
I have been in the US several times as a tourist,
and I know that sometimes immigrants don’t follow the law,
and sometimes U.S. citizens either.
I have to accept that if an immigrant steals,
or sell drugs, the goverment has the right to deport it.
But If a couple of immigrant teenagers enter into a school
competition and win, I don’t see anything wrong
if an individual starts a collegue fund.
U.S. citizens may have the right to complain
about gangs or money from the tax payers.
But attacking a private fund ?
Give me a break.
P.S. Yes, wait for my paycheck,
so I can give my small but hard-working donation…
Reading all the bigoted and slanderous replies in this thread almost make me sorry I fought for the right for these people to be free to say what they please. Too many of you are calling these kids criminals and felons. What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Most of these kids probably had no choice in the matter. Their parents probably brought them while they were to young to have a voice in the matter. I for one intend to make a small donation.
Bill
I think this was one of the most amazing stories I have read in a long time. Very inspiring. There are lessons to be learned on any number of levels.
If you boil this down to illegal immigration, you are missing the boat, and you probably need to go find the missing piece of your soul. Or you’re just young and stupid. And scared.
These guys kicked MIT’s ass. They want to be on my side. I want them on my side. Better them than some whining young jerk.
And if undocumented illegal immigrant high-schoolers can be the most prestigious engineering university, MIT, at a robot engineering contest. These kids most definately are cunning and should be going to MIT.
I for one believe all anglo-saxon’s, native or not, should be deported back to their respective countries. They, white people, have encroached, mooched, and stole land. Stealing is still illegal, no? Pilgrim get your bags, you’re going home!
can beat*
MIT should or any other prestigious school should recognize this talent and provide full scholarships, even to these illegals.
I think this story is probably blown out of proportion.. It just seems odd to me to hear this: “High school students out-engineer all university students.” Makes me wonder ya know… I mean MIT is renowned for it’s robotics research…
I think the kids will find money though. Government isn’t the only way to get money; although they should work for their citizenship in whatever way is possible. It is important to be a citizen of your country, or at least there legally.
And all the crap about law is getting old. This isn’t a question of law..
I could care less if they’re illegal immigrants. It’s a privately funded “scholarship”, and they’re kids who most likely came into the US with their parents.
Seriously… what would you do if you were in their shoes and your family was leaving the country in hopes of a better life?
Sorry ma! Sorry pa! I ain’t gonna break the law. I’ll just stay here by myself. good luck with your new life! i think i saw a nice crate round the corner that i could move into.
good luck to these kids, i’ll happily give them my precious tax dollars.
…that the US didn’t gain bright individuals, but Mexico lost bright individuals–individuals who could have been leaders in their country, but instead will be yet another set of cogs in the American system.
“send them back”…?
To all of you who say or think that these kids ought to be sent back to their countries, I must say that I am disappointed…
Who the hell to you think you are? Aren’t you and your monkey president trying to ‘free the world’? Or suddenly that isn’t the true thing? What’s up? These kids cannot produce enough fuel for you to driver your insanely V12 engines at 55mph through 6 lane highways?
Get a life US citizens. The world goes beyond your “more than weak” border and CNN; or, get a pump shootgun and start killing people. Oh, but you already do that, sorry.
id10ts.
A few observations
1) The request for donation, wasnt from tax funded money.
It was out of voluntary givings.
2) People on work visas in the US get no benefit from medicare or social security, and yet have to contribute.
So some people crying about tax money beeing ill spent
should think of this.
3) US has been successful because it has been more open
and adaptive then others. open to talent, ideas, and
opportunity.
Let’s assume we completely change the names and faces and the places involved so it’s all abstract. Race is a non-issue. Let’s say the individuals honestly want to become functioning members of some society, and have proven they can be productive. Well, part of being a functional member of a society is living by the laws, and paying for what they get. There’s no such thing as “Free” because the cost is paid by one or more people, or the infrastructure.
Let’s say there are people in the society they wish to be a part of that have expressed an interest in having them be a part of their society. Why not provide them with the Membership Kit, that has the instructions, “Some Assembly Required: Batteries Not Included!” and have them jump through the requisite hoops. Let’s get them registered as full citizens of that society, according to the laws that govern it. Let’s remember the fact that they didn’t have complete control over how they got to where they were at, but they DO have the ability to do something about whether or not they live by the laws of their current location: this is a concept called mercy, which is required for justice. The fact is, they ARE here ILLEGALLY (the kids in this case) but those decisions (in this case, at least) was forced on them by those that knew better, and had the stewardship/responsibility for their welfare and general well-being. Those that committed the crime of bringing them into the country illegally have no right to complain about what they themselves have to pay, but it’s only fair that they should pay in terms of appropriately assembling the Membership Kit, in whatever form it comes in. They can’t plead “I didn’t know!” or “Nobody would help me!” because there’s plenty of resources for doing things in an orderly fashion. After all, aren’t such societies that have Membership Kits very orderly, only too willing to give you paperwork to fill out? All these societies are insisting on is that there’s order so that things can be administered fairly, with justice for all.
Any citizen of such a society has benefits to being a member of the society, but they also have many obligations that come with it. If you aren’t really a member of the society, you don’t get the benefits (or at least, in a fair world, that’s true) and you also don’t have all the obligations that go with it. It really isn’t beneficial for either side to have someone exist in a state of limbo. If someone gets into a society as a non-member, what are their intentions? Are they friend or foe? Those intentions need to be clearly stated by filling out their Membership Kits. Ok, so things take time to complete. Oh well, did you really expect the Membership Kit to be purchased for free????
Carefully note that there’s absolutely nothing remotely racist or ethnic or economically or nationality discriminatory in what I wrote above: it’s all about justice with a blind eye to things that are irrelevant to the question at hand: it’s all about achieving a Win-Win scenario for everyone involved, willingly or not.
<rant>
It’s really not a simply “yes or no” answer. The ones that are truly “undocumented”, and yet somehow working, are really few and far in between. You’ll mostly spot them picking lettuce or some other seasonal crop. This is because it is easier for a remote and rural farm operation to make use of unscrupulous hiring practices. This first group often suffers the most — living in slave-like conditions because ‘el jefe’ is constantly threatening to turn them in to “la migra” if they don’t get back to work and do as they’re told. This group will take advantage of free public education for their children, *maybe* — only if said ‘el jefe’ allows it. This group is highly unlikely to apply for social programs beyond health care for fear of detection.
The vast majority of illegal immigrants, however, no longer fit into this first category. Perhaps we can refer to these as the “pseudo-documented”. They have obtained, for a negligible fee, false documentation through what is commonly called “identity theft”. Although this group is adding yet *another* crime to their repertoire, they cause fewer problems in the system, and live better. Instead of working for shady taskmasters, they work at “respectable” corporations. You’ll find them stocking shelves at Wal-Mart, asking if you want fries with your order at Burger King, or in just about any and every “service” job that requires minimum English skills. They have to at least provide false documentation so that the business that hires them can go through the motions and claim “Hey, we did our part” if it comes out that they were illegal. All this means that they (through the use of their false identity) are paying taxes just like you and I. Wal-Mart is required to take out Social Security, etc. from their paycheck, just like it does from yours.
This second group is usually here for much longer term that the first group. This is a 2-edged sword. it can make them tend more easily toward becoming “Americanized” in negative ways. They may start making demands of the system and feeling entitled to privileges just like most Americans do (sadly). From what I’ve seen, when they first arrive, they’re hard workers. America is the one that teaches them laziness. “What, you don’t have to work, here! Just accept state welfare and you’ll be ok”. Most of the real welfare cases are, in fact, Mexican *Americans*, not true Mexican Mexicans.
Again, the vast majority of illegals no longer work in the fields. They fall into this second category. So, in summary: Are there illegals that don’t pay taxes? Yes. Are there illegals that do? Many more, but they are breaking further laws to get there, in exchange for easier living and better treatment. What can we do about it? I feel the libertarians have the solution on this one, and you probably won’t like it. I think the only long term solution is to get rid of the socialist programs like welfare, social security, etc. thus erasing the motive of the bad apples that only come here to leech off the system. Only genuine, hard workers would want to come here anymore, and there would be enough of a reduction in quantity that they wouldn’t overwhelm the *legal* immigration system, anymore. This, of course would have the added effect of returning the tax dollars wasted on said government programs back to the citizens from whom they never should have been taken. This will never happen, however, because too many *American Americans* have exchanged their freedom for false security of government socialist programs and can’t live without them — any more than the bad apples among the illegal Mexian immigrants that they complain so vehemently about.
</rant>
“I read the article and these kids seem to be all below 18.”
Same thing I noticed. As minors brought by their parents, they didn’t break the law by entering the USA… it’s their parents who broke it by bringing them here. Therefore these kids aren’t criminals like they have been called by so many here.
This remind of that old Reagen welfare queen propaganda.
Well for those guys above here’s another welfare queen for you :
http://www.reason.com/0403/fe.js.confessions.shtml
Again, you guys are focusing on the wrong people.
Were you exceptionally bright kid that made the news? I doubt it..
I’m not the person you were replying to, but yes.
My family grossed barely $14,000 a year with two parents and three kids. I was on the news when I was only five years old because I was in a gifted children’s program. I tested at an IQ of about 130. But, did I get any special help beyond that program which consisted of extra work and no reward? No…
I have thousands of dollars of debt from College and I’m still not done. When I see stories like this I want to kick someone in the head. I had to work for everything I have or my family worked for it and life was *hard*. Do I ever get scholarship offers or other things? No.
Sorry, but undocumented means not legal, means they should be kicked out. They should have come in through proper channels.
what ever happened to innocent until proven guilty is the question? good question. lets arrest them for being illegally in the country and then go through the whole taxpayer process of finding out if they are really illegal or not. then if they are we can ship them back to mexico and they can come here legally afterwards. i would be willing to help them out then. and if they are not illegals then i would be willing to apologize.
i am just so upset that people are willing to defend illegal activity in this country. stealing movies, music, games, software via p2p. defending illegals’ rights. the list could go on and on.
its called the rule of law and we either live by it or get it changed by staying active in politics but dont complain about it or try to go around it if you arent doing anything legal to fix it first.
I think we should start a new fund, aimed at gathering enough money to bribe any gouvernment instance that controls citizenship, have them nullify the US citizenships of some of the angry, angry post-owners here, and send them to Mexico. There they could go through applying for a US citizenship again, while getting some nice experiences from Mexico and observing their surroundings.
Then, in say 10-15 years, we can have a follow-up thread in which they say their sorries, explain that they were wrong, and top it off by having them kiss everyones butt.
Why it would be worth 20-30$ to me. Anyone?
— deleted — I wrote a lot of sh**… but such postings makes me really pissed of!
“Sorry, but undocumented means not legal, means they should be kicked out.”
Imagine: One of your program is not running correct! It has a small but very critical failor. But your company need this program or it will loose a loot of money in the future. Now what are you doing? Do you realy delete the program? Or do you fix your small errors and save a lot of time, productifity and money?
Ben said…
its called the rule of law and we either live by it or get it changed by staying active in politics but dont complain about it or try to go around it if you arent doing anything legal to fix it first.
One problem with that is immigrants have very little or no rights to begin with. How can they sway public opinion if they are invisible?
Really, some smart and selfish alecky made this idea of illegal immigration to the benefit of the some group and the detriment of the immigrants.
This is a difficult situation that doesn’t have a good solution. This particular instance is only extraordinary because these students are so obviously talented.
The US cannot accept all immigrants from Mexico that want to come here. It would completely destabilize the labor market and break the current balance of taxes and services provided by the govt. Yes, historically, the US was build on the work of immigrants, and most of us only have to look a generation or two back to find an immigrant in our family tree. However, it can also be argued that this nation was also built on the exploitation of those immigrants, that it mainly benefited the rich, and that it came at the expense of the less fortunate US citizen laborers of that era. Nations are formed for the preservation of its citizens and there is an inherent selfishness in this preservation.
BUT… the motivations of these people are honorable. They generally just want a chance to work for a better life for themselves and their family, so the characterization of these people as criminals, though possibly technically accurate, doesn’t do them justice. They aren’t evil or depraved. They are simply disadvantaged. At a minimum, sympath and respect are in order, if not assistance.
AND… to all the “US sucks” people out there, Europe is no better in this respect. Most European countries (particularly the wealthier ones) are just as, if not more, protectionist than the US. The main difference between the US and Europe here is that we share a large border with Mexico. And to all the people that love to call us theives and murderers, pretty much every nation in existance has some dark chapter in its history filled with countless injustices, so the US is also not special in this respect either. If your beef is with our current actions in Iraq, please realize that the US is currently split down the middle on this issue. Not all of us were in favor of the war.
subject says it all
Firstly allow me to say that one couldn’t reasonably describe a citizen born on U.S. soil as an immigrant. They may be descended from immigrants, but are not immigrants themselves. This is simple logic; where did they immigrate from?
Secondly, the issue of law versus morality is a double edged sword. In a very platonic sense laws are shadowy reflections of the ideal morals upon which they are based.
Thirdly, many have (one in particular) equated the crime of the student’s in question to original sin. This is a bogus comparison for many reasons, but sufice it to say that ignorace of laws and morals does not excuse the act of breaking them.
Lastly, the moral broken by these students is acknowledged by great thinkers such as Socrates and Adams (the economist/philosopher). Adams posits that contributing to the economy of any other than your native country is immoral. Socrates in fact refused to leave Athens prior to his execution even though it was feasable for him to do so. The general point I’m making is that you are tied to the land of your birth. Gaining citizenship in another country is a betrayal of self and is thus inherently immoral.
Note for the casual reader (i.e. idiot): Even if immigration laws were changed or erradicated, it would still be immoral to emmigrate from the country in which you are a native.
Illegal doesn’t mean bad.
It was illegal for black person to ride in front part of the bus quite recently.
Depriving people of basic human rights (like freedom of movement) that’s what is criminal.
Some idiot said: “Gaining citizenship in another country is a betrayal of self and is thus inherently immoral…Even if immigration laws were changed or erradicated, it would still be immoral to emmigrate from the country in which you are a native.”
Question: Why?
I don’t care if they have the cure for cancer. Let them enter the country legally or get their education in their own country. And this goes for people who are here illegally from Mexico, England, Japan or wherever. Its not about racism its about the fucking LAW! They are breaking the law by being here. Send them back!
Yea, while we’re at it.. why don’t we just open the borders to the people who murdered nick berg if they have an IQ above 130. There are reasons that countries (especially the USofA – post 9/11) have immigration procedures. Ship them back. I don’t care if Einstein smuggled himself in the country – ship him back, too. We have procedures to enter in legally. If you don’t want to wait for 15 years to get reviewed, then tough. Life isn’t fair. I know, you bleeding hearts out there, thats hard to bear.
Take the emotion out of this. There are rules. There are reasons for the rules. Ship them back. Now.
I descend from European and “Native American” ancestry. Both of those groups were immigrants, and if we really want to be especially anal we’re all African immigrants.
But where we come from doesn’t matter. What our ancestors did so that we exist where we exist has no intrinsic value upon the mores of today. The customs and actions of the past create no responsibility for actions today.
Many things used to be legal that are not today, and many things today are legal that were not previously. We are not our fathers’ fathers.
If people would like to live within the U.S., and to have the respect of its legal citizens, then they need live within the U.S. in accordance with its laws. No appeals to emotion will create anything but resentment.
Fairness is irrelevant. Whether people earn citizenship or not is irrelevant. People do not earn many things. Intelligence, physical prowess, wealth, being attractive, or basically as many things as you would care to consider. And while you can certainly hope to convince people that it’s acceptable for people to illegally live within the U.S. because the universe contains a dearth of equality, you will find that your arguments fall upon deaf ears.
“Question: Why?”
One reason I gave you: it is a betrayal of self. If you were born into a tribe would it be OK with you to start working, hunting, living with another tribe that shared the same habitat? Remember that these people raised you and taught you everything you know about working, hunting, and living. Is it really right to take dear that could have been theirs?
Would you sponsor my immigration to Sweden?
This story is not tragic as much as it is ironic.
It’s not tragic because there are equally bright legal citizens who can’t afford college.
But it’s far more ironic that I got near zero financial aid for college because my family had enough money to be ineligible for the free money yet didn’t have enough to pay for me to go.
If you don’t live in America you don’t realize how much we get beat down here for being slightly successful. Everyone who is rich can easily pay for college and everyone who is poor is eligible for the handouts we subsidize through the taxes that reduce our paychecks to below a living wage. We in the middle have to work full time just to go to school part time.
Maybe you can understand why we get a little bitter when we hear stories like this. We’re not racists and we’re not anti-immigrant.
It’s just unfair, especially when those of us complaining are second or third generation Americans whose grandparents were *legal* immigrants. Believe me when we understand how our *legal* immigrant grandparents were treated unfairly because they couldn’t speak English or had dark skin.
I work full time, pay taxes, and I still can’t afford to go to school. All things being equal why should someone in my same position who is breaking a law get to go to college while I work for peanuts?
Those students don’t deserve more than anybody else.
In fact, they deserve less because of their illegal status.
“Is it really right to take dear that could have been theirs?” Yea. It’s called the survival of the fittest. I agree that they should be sent home… but I don’t agree with the premise of your argument. According to you, Christopher Columbus shouldn’t have taken the indians’ dear then (literally). I’m sure as heck glad he did though. Indians weren’t the fittest. (Hey, I’ll trade you $1 for 100 acres and some fire water.. OK!.. haha)
“If people would like to live within the U.S., and to have the respect of its legal citizens, then they need live within the U.S. in accordance with its laws…Fairness is irrelevant.”
Wrong. If the law isn’t fair then “the law is an ass” and it does not get respect, and often not even by the people supposed to be enforcing it…it is merely tolerated until it can be circumvented completely in individual cases by whatever ways and means necessary.
You may not agree with my argument, which I am perfectly fine with. However, perhaps before you decide you should understand it as from your reply I see that you do not.
No, Columbus was not morally wrong for the SOLE act of exploring. The actions taken by Spain and the other so-called conquerers were immoral since what they did ammounted to genocide. Columbus, as per my earlier statements was acting immorally when he decided to sail under a Spanish flag, rather than the flag of his native country.
Please don’t use any of my previous or future posts to support racist theories about survival of the fittest. You don’t seem to understand that particular theory either.
Once freedom loving and capable people created great country and now their pathetic and useless great-great children are ruining it because they are afraid of competition with freedom loving and capable people.
@LimbaughInstitute
If 10,000 illegals are entering your country on a daily basis, as has been claimed in this thread, then you may need to re-assess your criteria for “fitness” very soon…
There is no fair way to permit everyone in the world to live and prosper within the United States. If that bothers you, then you have to take it up with a higher power than the U.S. legal system. In the mean time you can cherish all of the resentment that illegals receive for disregarding immigration laws.
Respected they are not. Exploited? Yes. Tolerated? Sometimes. Respected? No.
“US Citizens, get a life, your’re but a bunch of ruled by a monkey, id10ts.”
-The US is the only super-power in the world. Sounds like you’re the id10t. especially since you can’t spell Iraq – thats with a ‘q’ not a ‘k’.
“What gives you the right to send anyone back?”
-Two words. 9/11.
Sounds to me like you’ve been reading a little too much Carl Marx my friend.
I have to agree… I’m not going to give money to help illegals steal chances from those who legitimately follow the law and try to find legal ways to make their dreams come true.
The point you are missing friend is that they aren’t running away from a dictatorship to partake in democracy. They are leaving a free country with a poor, yet improving, economy for one with a currently higher set of attainable rewards.
I personally feel that these exceptionally bright students should jump at the chance to study at a Mexican University in order to raise the (mostly uninformed) opinion of that country. The implication of leaving your own country to move to “greener pastures” is that your country, and by extension its people, are not capable of performing at the same level.
“Respected they are not. Exploited? Yes. Tolerated? Sometimes. Respected? No.”
…all depends on who you ask, doesn’t it? I could never care less what you personally happen to respect.
> I personally feel that these exceptionally bright students
> should jump at the chance to study at a Mexican University
And I personally feel that it is their decision where to go and what to do, not yours. Freedom – Americans heard of it.
Hahahahaha! Oh man, .. yes, your intellect is much higher than anything than mine could reach – you little genius you.
*Dripping with sarcasm.
Actually, i was using the columbus thing because many people can reference the story in order for me to make my point about the “taking someone else’s dear” thing. I guess you could say it technically was the colonists that did the most of it, but I’m sure some indian went hungry if Columbus decided to “harvest” some native wildlife for supper during his grueling exporation. I wasn’t addressing the morality of him leaving or not leaving his country – i was referring to the morality of “taking someone else’s dear” – which, i gathered from your comment, you considered to be immoral. So, read your own comments before you comment on mine please.
Given the proficiency with which you whine about the sentiments directed toward people that violate the immigration laws of the U.S., I had presumed that you were capable of comprehending the distaste that is typically thrust upon them.
I mean seriously, what kind of stupid question is “all depends on who you ask, doesn’t it?” You might as well ask if morality is objective while ignoring that homophobia is alive, well, and routinely voting to deny homosexuals marriage rights.
well, i’ll be making a donation.
I hope they become citizens and take ur jobs (or ur kids)
No my friend, I believe you are the one that really needs to vist past posts.
I stated that it would be immoral for a member of tribe A to leave tribe A and join tribe B. The reason was the person leaving tribe A would be competing against HIS OWN PEOPLE. It would not be immoral for that SAME individual to STAY IN his tribe of birth, A, and take deer from tribe B. If I have broken this down far enough for you to digest, you can see that Columbus taking the proverbial deer from his competitors (i.e. the natives) was not the immoral act and therefore your counter-argument doesn’t apply.
It is NOT immoral to support yourself by taking (if necessary) from your neighbor. It IS immoral to steal from your family, tribe, country, or whatever word you choose.
Please, for the love of whatever you find holy, stop posting. You are only increasing your own shame.
By the way spanish speakers are now the number one minority in the US. Soon to be the majority. I can only imagine how Limbaugh will react when his daughter comes home with Juan, or Pablo he’s bound to flip out.
Respect, eh just wait til hispanic people make moves up the ladder you won’t help but respect them.
Anyways most minorities are put through this crap. Italians, Irish, Japanese, etc … After all America was founded on racism, and will exist on racism ’til it’s decline.
Could we keep this thread under 200, I don’t think we should break the record set by Eugina’s GNOME editorial.
Why is every comment that says something bad about illegit immigrants “pending review”?
Are we supposed to be happy US citizens are losing millions of jobs to illegits.
If all of them went back they would have enough numbers to start a revolution – but they’d rather sneek over here; that’s easier.
Losers.
While your dedication to your craft is noteworthy, I’m not the droid you’re looking for.
Woah there chief. The site is automated. The pending review probably comes up then someone hits the handy “Report abuse” link at the bottom right of a post.
Pending review doesn’t mean deleted and I haven’t seen any of the “bad posts”, even those with foul language be deleted.
“I mean seriously, what kind of stupid question is “all depends on who you ask, doesn’t it?””
As I said, with supposedly 10,000 illegals being added to your country every day, you may find that over time their collective opinions and attitudes and the effects of their presence on everyone else will carry a lot more weight than you would like. Oh, but wait, that’s happening already!…
Oh c’mon, this is hilarious! I’m having fun, how about you?
“A would be competing against HIS OWN PEOPLE.”
-Correct me if I’m wrong.. but staying within one’s own country puts you in competition for jobs with your fellow citizens, correct? I must be wrong on that one. *shakes head. It all depends on which level you’re looking at it.
I think it is you who should lie down before you hurt someone or yourself.
Many hispanic people command considerable respect by no small majority of the citizens of the U.S. You can pretend that the entire matter is one of racism if you really want, but I think if that were solely the case that the Caucasians would simply begin purifying their land or whatever act would befit your perception of barbarism.
Many of you guys speak as if it no longer possible to come to the US legally. Thousands of people do so every year.
Secondly, it is possible to get a very decent education in many “third world” countries. I came to the US legally, I had completed a masters degree in computer engineering my home country.
I waited patiently for my opportunity to come here legally. I have no sympathy for people trying to jump the queue.
Your tribe loyalty “moral” principle is a definition of racism in it’s pure form. In your sick world, people who left Nazi Germany because of the moral principles and then fought against it were in fact “immoral” while those who stayed and diligently exterminated millions of civilians in gas chambers were in fact, example of “morality”.
Again, your failure to grasp the situation startles me.
The job market is an open resource that anyone in our tribe (i.e. Americans) have equal access to. The resources (i.e. jobs) are allocated (in the ideal case) based on the past performance and ability to execute the required tasks.
Out performing or being more well qualified for a job is not a “kill or be killed” competition against your own people. It is a perfectly legit way of obtaining your rightful share of the common resource.
Ah, I don’t think so. Racism is used on the masses as a tool to induce bickering amongs the small factions and thus prevent them from seeing the true enemy or underlying problem.
When you get to a certain level there’s no such thing as racism. As you can probably see from this thread most people are scared of each other. Fear begets …..
10,000 fruit-pickers who don’t participate in the country will accomplish rather little for a long period of time. In generations they will have populated regions of the U.S. sufficiently to alter immigration laws to favor their relatives. Then you’ll find that it’s the Pakistanis or the Indians or the Chinese that are incapable of earning the respect of legal citizens of the U.S.
What a wonderful improvement.
<Too bad so many white Americans are too shallow and too egocentric to concern themselves for problems that don’t affect their white suburbs and SUVs.>
This particlar comment strikes me as racism in its purest form.
Let’s see . . . you could replace “white” with “black” . . . and replace “suburbs” with “inner city” . . . and replace “SUVs” with “Cadillacs”.
Now maybe you can recognize you have made a purely racist comment? See . . . its all just the same.
By the way it turns out the scientific definition of “race” is on mighty shaky grounds in any case. I predict before too much longer people will have to come up with some other completely stupid reason to hate people.
Or maybe they could try loving people instead of hating them?
BTW: I’ve got a sneaky suspicion some of you folks are getting your inpressions of the US from the BBC. I invite you to come over for a visit . . . whatever you decide about the place I bet you won’t recognize it from what you’ve seen on BBC:-)
One last point before I retract from this crap all together, public education == poop, public healthcare == a joke, etc …
If you really want your children to have a chance you’ll school them privately or send them off to some prestigious institution. American health care is also a joke, you need lot’s of rupies to hire a decent doctor.
What this boils down to is fear, and politicos federales playing off people on each other. After this whole thread I wish I had money to donate bu sadly I don’t. Best of luck to those boys, and may god bless who ever the hell s/he/it likes.
>Lastly, the moral broken by these students is acknowledged by great thinkers such as Socrates >and Adams (the economist/philosopher). Adams posits that contributing to the economy of any >other than your native country is immoral.
(of course these students were not the ones who chose to come to America, but their parents. poor young brown-skins are so difficult to distinguish, ya know…)
BTW,
Adams (the “great thinker”/philosopher of capitalism along with Marx) also posited the free movement of LABOR as the integral colorary to the free movement of CAPITAL.
…Idealistic Capitalism, incidentally is based on the individualistic pursuit of self-profit or satisfaction with NO REGARD to the community and/or “Nation”.
…so, recognizing an immoral element to emigration, would equally require a recognization of the complete immorality of Capitalism…
OF COURSE you can check any decent history book to learn more about how this contradiction was developed further (see Nationalism, Fascism… Howard Zinn offers a decent synopsis of the American state, Wilhelm Reich wrote a great analysis of the structure of European Fascism.)
>…. The general point I’m making is that you are tied to the land of your birth. Gaining citizenship in >another country is a betrayal of self and is thus inherently immoral.
‘you are tied to your country’ is an IDEAL, but obviously in the case of these kids’ PARENTS, THEY WERE NOT completely ‘tied’ to their country, at least in the sense of refusing to travel/ emigrate/ work in an economically more abundant sitaution… SO, their ‘sense of self’ was GREATER than the national border of Mexico and USA, in this case…
as many have pointed out vis-a-vis USA as a country of immigrants (and conquerors), the sense-of-belonging of the USA was from the very beginning predicated on ABANDONING a previous sense-of-belonging (from England, Ireland, France, Italy, Japan, China, etc, etc. in addition to the forced destruction of previous cultures (African, Indigenous))
ONE CASE: I was born in Japan to my American parents (language teachers) and did not move to America until I was 2 years old (where my American-ness was recognized thru my parent’s citizenship).
Japan does NOT give legal citizenship to people born in the country, and in fact there is a substantial class of people, mainly of Korean/ Chinese descent, born and raised in Japan, speaking only Japanese, who are not ‘citizens’.
(The USA does this only because of the amendment aiming to ensure the enfranchisement of ‘native’ american blacks.)
…SO? in my case, I am ‘NOT’ at all ‘tied’ to the land of my birth, except as I choose to exert my own self, i.e. the state institutions do not recognize my ‘tie’ to the land.
While the actions and intentions of Trans/National Powers (Corporations/Governments) are completely implicated in “Immoral” transgressions against community and nation
(this is the essense of Capitalism, for good and bad),
Poor families are attacked for their ‘Moral failings’, which consist of breaking rules enacted by and for Governments and trans-national Corporate Power Interests…
what is ‘immoral’? crossing a desert, or economic warfare which obligates thousands to cross a desert (where many hundreds may die, trying to cross) ?
> By the way it turns out the scientific definition of “race”
> is on mighty shaky grounds in any case. I predict
> before too much longer people will have to come up with
> some other completely stupid reason to hate people.
Didn’t this thread show they already did?
Residency papers – a perfect replacement of skin color (as a reason for discrimination).
No no. If you were able to extract that from what I wrote then I accept responsibility for not expressing my thought well enough.
Let me attempt to clear up what I feel is a misconception of my words.
The immorality was on the part of the Nazis. Many of the jews they exterminated were members of their tribe (i.e. Germans) and they were being selected based on their religious belief and ancestry. What they did was genocide which can not be considered in any form to be moral killing. It was done with no real provocation and not in defense of themselves.
Human beings aren’t perfect and therefore they can do immoral things. People that weren’t able to see the immorality of the holocaust and took part in it made a very bad choice.
The whole tribe thing is an analogy, you simply assumed that the members of my “tribes” were all the same color. I hadn’t even considered that aspect.
Great story!
The reality is they contribute to the economy in many ways – Western Union, Check Cashing, Wal-Mart, and grocery stores to name a few. The problem is they come here because SOMEONE is willing to break the law — those that PAY FOR THEIR LABOR. Two guilty parties however one has a noble intention.
Stiff penalties/hard-time for exploitation or even fair treatment of UNDOCUMENTED workers.
Humanely provide a one-way ticket back to undocumented
workers homeland.
I am from Central America myself (Nicaraguan). My grandmother immigrated legally worked her tail off in manufacturing clothes (sweatshop anyone?!) she quickly realized her destiny was in her hands pick up a trade. She went to cosmetology (spelling?) school. She learned that vanity was a good business in the states and eventually OPENED AND OWNED a beauty shop in San Mateo, CA. Anyways she did all this LEGALLY.
I know some Mexicans her in Durham, NC some undocumented and others documented. Those that come here only wish to improve their lives and their family lives. Those that use undocumented workers are criminals and are more than likely reaping huge rewards. I appluad them for their hardwork. Some reform must take place in regards to immigration. I sincerely believe since we have too many lawyers we do not have JUSTICE. Laws MUST BE ENFORCE ACROSS THE BOARD or BORDER
Most liberals try to equate anti illegal immigrant sentiments to anti immigrant sentiment. These are two very different things.
Most of the people I know who harbor anti illegal immigrant sentiments, treat legal aliens very decently.
Adams (the “great thinker”/philosopher of capitalism along with Marx) also posited the free movement of LABOR as the integral colorary to the free movement of CAPITAL
Yes he did. However, stopping the flow of illegal immigrants into the U.S. would not necessarily stop the free movement of either labor or capital. The flow of both would only seize up if there were no excess of either. That is to say, if there are unemployed people in the work force and there are jobs they can fill, labor and capital are moving. If there are more jobs than people? Economic down-turn.
I agree, for the most part, about your comments toward the ideals. Morals are inherently ideal and I never said the system does, or would ever, meet them. Would you rather I based my argument on current laws? Those are mutable.
<<Residency papers – a perfect replacement of skin color (as a reason for discrimination). >>
Yes indeed. I think you’re onto something there. Another advantage is since Residency papers are so easily forged you can more easily change your opinion of someone merely by updating the paperwork.
Alright. Well I’ve voiced/defended my opinions do with them what you will.
I have some tv to watch.
What are the requirements to go to University in Mexico? Are these students out of country so long that they won’t be admitted?
Frankly I’ve no problems with these kids getting student visas or being greencarded.
But, given how draconian the INS is of late … there was a case recently in Las Vegas where two teens were almost deported back to Armenia, despite the fact they had lived in the US since they were tiny children and didn’t speak Armenian. (The father, who became a citizen back in the early 1990s, thought for whatever reason that his daughters had become citzens when he became naturalized.)
These girls were in the INS center in LA, about to be shipped to a foreign country (which didn’t want them, because they didn’t have Armenian passports) before a lawyer managed to get an emergency hearing.
So yeah, real CRIMINALS, these girls.
Finally, my husband did not become a US citizen until he married me, and he was in this country ILLEGALLY for many years. Why? Because he didn’t know until he was 25 that his “dad” wasn’t his father. (And his dad, being a lazy SOB, never got around to formally adopting him. Meant to, but never did, and intentions don’t count.) So, my husband had a green card (when he was 6 months old) but had never re-registered when he was 13 and 21.
Now, granted, he had family still in Germany, but he had no German ID of any sort, und ich spreche mehr Deutsch als ihn. We did go through all the proper channels to get him naturalized, but there were a few very very nervious moments when it looked like he might find himself with a one way ticket to Munich.
your initial dear comment did not go nearly into that much detail as to explain exactly what you were talking about when it comes to ‘taking deer’ if you will. if we’re talking about a free market economy and job market, you appear to be very learned on the very relevant subject and i commend that. on the upside, we agree they shouldn’t be here, on the downside, we disagree that it’s wrong to taken a deer from another person in another country.
In fact I think I see the real way out of this.
We need a more dynamic bigotry for the 21st century.
Tiger Woods may have already shown the way. I ask you who is the more successful “white man” today, Tiger Woods or Michael Jackson?
The static forms of bigotry which characterized the 20th century led to continual warfare. Jesse Owens runs a little too fast, Joe Louis fights a little too well, and only warfare can resolve the “crisis”.
Today we have the computer as arbiter. Therefore the computer needs only to tell us these Mexican kids were actually born in the USA. Case closed.
It seems most people shouting to send back the kids home (in a box?) just act out of jealousy or something…
Just how many did say “I didn’t get it! Why should THEY?”
Well, because usually people want the next generation (our children or others) to get better things. Yes, your children could be mexican!
Anyway, having to get a loan and pay back years after.. just to be able to study is really frightening (outside of a third world country). I guess if we had to do this in Europe we’d just decide the information we get from TV is good enough and forget that dumb expensive college thing. Cartoon Network would do just fine 🙂
If you had to fight like a lion to be able to study … why the hell don’t you just wish others, after you, could do it in an easier way? Because you’re just too pissed off? Just like when you bought the fastest PC and someone got a cheaper and faster one, just the next month?
Oh, and please don’t mention that “illegal” thing about frontiers. The guy who put the first fence started this whole mess… Take a trip to outer space (they’re cheap nowadays) and watch the american continent, and others, from the sky. Do you see a line? Other than the one they put in your head?
Can I have your clothing?
> I didn’t treat you poorly, I’m sorry if my ancestors did.
> Are you here illegally? Go home, or we will help you go home.
And then some years later your grand-child will say to those you are going to “help go home”: “I didn’t treat you poorly, I’m sorry if my ancestors did”. And then his going to force someone else out (by some other principle, as “residency papers” will no longer be acceptable characteristic to discriminate by, just as skin color isn’t today anymore).
If you aren’t here legally, you don’t deserve to be here. If you do want to be here, go home and apply to be here legally. Once that’s approved we will welcome you with open arms. Don’t twist what I said to serve your agenda.
If you travel into space and look down upon this planet, you won’t see your house, your dog, your children, your town, or all of the little agreements you and your neighbors have come to about them. Should you, or should you not be able to own a handgun? Should you or should you not be able to have hateful imagery flying from a pole in your yard? Should one or should one not have private property? Should I be able to take your children? Should I be able to live in the house your daughter and her husband just built?
Well if you look at the Earth from space, you won’t find any answers to any of these questions. You can look at the Earth from where you sit right now, and you still won’t find any answers to these questions.
You can construct answers to these questions. That’s because they are all human constructions. How any one of you would answer one of them or an indefinite supply of others will more often than not depend on where you were raised and who raised you, because “they” have been putting civilization into their childrens’ heads since time immemorial.
I’m from Poland and recently my country joined European Union and all these people in “old” EU thought that we will massively go to their countries and will work for 3 euros/hour and will be happy and will ruin their economy.
Nothing like this happend. Because we already all know that employers from “old” EU are mostly criminals and we often prefer to work for less but at our homes with our families.
And I’m sure that it could be very simmilar in USA/Mexico relations.
But americans thinks that everyone that lives outside USA is criminal or terrorista… and this is good
because they will create their own gettho, they’ll keep talented people away and when they will make more wars their economy will collapse and this is good for the world 
I said people without papers allowing them to be in my country shouldn’t be here.
That’s not discrimination, not by any means.
The U.S. encourages talented people from abroad to come and learn in our universities, work in our industries, and start their own enterprises. It’s a shame you know so little about the country, and a further shame you choose make such comments regarding the businesses of Europe.
It’s perfectly clear now.
You want to come to america, and you don’t want to do it legally, so we are discriminating against you by saying that you should stay home.
Apply for a visa, or don’t come in. Locking our doors and only allowing people in that we want in is not discrimination. We open our doors to almost anyone, so unless you have a shady background you shouldn’t be offended that we want to check you out first.
> But americans thinks that everyone that lives outside USA is
> criminal or terrorista… and this is good
because they
> will create their own gettho, they’ll keep talented people
> away and when they will make more wars their economy will
> collapse and this is good for the world
This is indeed what would have eventually happened were it not for massive illegal immigration. America IS getting huge influx of fresh and talented blood, they are just not getting it nice and easy way but rather hard and painful way.
> You are the living walking proof. You are saying people
> without “correct residency papers” should not have equal
> rights. Just as your ancestors said about black people.
Don’t forget those “correct dog ownership papers,” “correct airplane piloting papers,” “correct accreditation papers,” and “correct ownership papers.”
There are a lot of papers those racists want that are denying people equal rights!
the correct automobile driving papers
> fuck what my grandpa said. He’s dead, get over it.
> you continue to show your ignorance by not letting go.
You are doing the exact same thing he did.
You’ve made several posts regarding some notable philosophers of the past being of the opinion that one must remain loyal to their place/tribe/whatever of birth, no matter what. I don’t care who said it, or how brilliant they may have been at other times. This idea is simply ridiculous. Why don’t you do some thinking of your own, instead of blindly trusting dead philosophers?
> Don’t forget those “correct dog ownership papers,”
> “correct airplane piloting papers,”
> “correct accreditation papers,” and “correct ownership papers.”
>
> There are a lot of papers those racists want
> that are denying people equal rights!
With all those papers they and you have equal rights. They and you have to go through the same procedure to get them. That is what is called equal rights. With regards to freedom of movement you and they do not have equal rights. You are discriminating against them.
“blindly trusting” is a little of a stretch don’t you think?
The fact that I mentioned Socrates should be enough of an indication that I recognize the importance of thinking for one’s self (in case you don’t know that was his whole bag).
That being said, why would I cast out good ideas just because someone else thought of them? One can think for one’s self and still pay proper tribute to the ideas of others.
has freedom of movement here, you just have to prove that you are worthy of coming here. Everyone has to go through the same process unless you were born here.
Deal with it.
> Everyone has to go through the same process
> unless you were born here.
> Deal with it.
That’s what I am doing.
Just as my ancestors fought with yours about slavery.
>The U.S. encourages talented people from abroad to come and
>learn in our universities, work in our industries, and start
>their own enterprises.
Buuuhahaha… yeah right…
U.S. encourages talented people only when they are able to pay for their education.
And more – U.S. citizens are allowed to visit my country without visa and any problems, while we need to pay $100 for visa procedure (while they reject 30% requests but take money) we need to scan our fingerprints, eyes, photos etc. like neat.
I don’t even want to know what I need to do to work or start my own company in U.S.
>It’s a shame you know so little about the country, and a
Propably I know much more about your country than you know about mine.
>further shame you choose make such comments regarding the
>businesses of Europe.
Believe me – I know what I’m talking about.
Lot of employees in “old” EU that want to employ _legal_ immigrants form East Europe are criminals.
They don’t pay at all for job and almost always they pay much less than they pay to their citizens for the same job, they expect people to work for 16hr a day, often in extremal environment. Just because they want immigrants to do jobs that any German, French etc. doesn’t want to do at all.
Nebraska now has in-state tuition for undocumented.
>>These kids are hardworking geniuses.
oh and a farmer, rancher, minister, machinist types aren’t smart and just as deserving? occupation bias pisses me off so much.
I guess the art of mowing lawns is the modern day calligraphy.