This month’s Wired magazine has a terriffic story about a team of students from a high school in an economically depressed part of Phoenix, who took part in an underwater-robot building competition against students from the top universities in the country — and won. All of the students are undocumented Mexican immigrants who don’t qualify for most financial aid or even in-state tuition, and therefore can’t afford to attend college, in the US, Mexico, or anywhere. When I read the article I determined to try to do something to help give these kids their chance, and I was delighted to discover that their faculty advisor has set up a scholarship fund for them, and I’m about to donate some money to help. I’d like to encourage OSNews readers to read the story, and if they feel the same way, to donate.
Those from the US, also , shouldn’t call themselves “americans”, since they’re not the only ones from “america”. South Americans then should call themselves “americans” too. And those from central america, and the carribean. Just like “america” should not only
mean the US. “Gringos” is a more appropiate term for you.
First of all i want to say that i’m not Mexican, but i am a legal immigrant turn citizen not too long ago.
Two main arguements which i pick up from posts are 1)that these genius high school kids defeated the smart people representing the best of the best tech university, MIT. To me, because they are from MIT doesn’t mean that they are smarter than others from even community colleges. If they are indeed smart doesn’t mean they can’t make simple mistakes. The article hardly mention the complexity of each of the robot design. ESL students produce better reports? why not? All it takes is lots of proofing and revising by others an F paper can easily be an A. While MIT students are more than likely to overlook this and concentrate on the technologically advanced aspects. I know people with 4.0 GPA and they are dumb and i mean really dumb. They talk like they know the world and socialize with intructors like close friends. When it comes to actual work, they speak with fancy terms that bearly have any relevance what so ever relating to the project. Yet someone with like 2.0 about to be kick out of college posses talent and skill beyond my understanding. Why they do so poorly in college i don’t know. But my point here is that those kids might have potential but its more like plenty of luck to win that competition. Based on that one incident and label them as genius is simply out of line, anyone truely believing that should seriously consider higher education for themselves. In addition, i believe most individual have their own strength and skills, given the right opportunities they can all excel in what do best.
2nd agruement was that USA/White male racist/discrimination etc. Well, true that i agree all of the above exist, but which country doesn’t. No matter which ethnic group, all those apply more or less but none should go as far as to label whole ethnic group base what the extremist says or do. Despite being a citizen, i don’t show patriot blindly. Myself believe that USA is too into other countries internal affairs constantly using reasons of human rights/torturing/terrorism/corruption/whatever fancy word the government got. USA like any other coutries are also messed up in their own way. We pretty much work on the buddy buddy system despite having glorious laws on equality and bla bla bla. Alot of people do think they are superior due to be american and pride themselves unrealistically while constanly criticizing others. But nonetheless, politics is a game and the USA is a major power both economically and militarily plus excellent PR which denies any wrong doing and accuse every other nation not on our ally list as evil. Any nations could easily be recognize as a friendly nation simply by presenting themselves to Washington as their Bi**H.
My 2 cents got carry away, anyways,illegal immigrants should all be treated the same and not get special treatments on individual bases. The government didn’t pay for my education, why should the illegal immigrant get aide. USA have its goods and bads but if u live in USA u get to criticize others and defend yourself arrogantly…isn’t it great to be in the USA, why many people want to come here, illegally if neccessary. And for those whom argue the illegal immigrant hold shitty jobs, have to think about them not having a job or even shittier jobs in their native countries.
my multiple 2 cents
” Taxation for education is theft, no matter what size of majority is in favor of it..”
well – the taxation itself is a kind of theft in a first place, but the one we all agree to; what is important is that it works; too bad for you if you don’t like democracy
“If I break into FBI computers, should they give me a job?”
if you were good – why not? – it would be better for u,them & all of us if u wouldn’t go to jail (it olso cost’s money, wright?) – and we could benefit from your talent instead
“do you know why the statue of lady justice has her wearing a blindfold??”
justice IS NOT law ; law ought to bring justice to reality – wheather it succeds remains to be considered
law is for people to obey, but you have to remember also that law is for people in the first place ; it ain’t sacred – people made it, and _sometimes_ when the law just obviously doesn’t work properly maybe people should be more resilient…
however if you choose not to – send those kids to Poland – we gladly welcome them – they’ll be Poles in a matter of days, even if not leggally
“sorry if your people did not adapt to change” by smartpatrol.
If by “adapt” you mean massacring them and put them in reservations, then yes, they didnt adapt. would you have adapted?
was trying to make a historical point. My ancestors were enslaved and killed by the Romans. They eventually went back and sacked rome. Some of my other ancestors took part in the last major indian uprising in the United states that being a sauk indian uprising near Rock Island Illinois. I don’t condone what happenend to the Native Americans i think it was a horrible thing but its happened all through history over and over again by different people. Its not something i would participate in modern times but who am i to judge those in the past who felt compelled to do such things. If we are going to play this game of “wo is me persecution” i would like to point out that out of all the peoples in the new world the middle and south american peoples Mayans etc.. got screwed over the most not by anglo-saxons but by the Spanish.
I never said you worked for IBM, I was refering to another poster. You can judge alot about a person/business by the company they keep, and I would not like to be affiliated with extremist from either wing. Like anything else in life there isn’t a one size fits all solution for all the problems that come up, one needs to be pragmatic as opposed to shooting from the hip with comments like; “OMFG!!1 Illegalz!” or “OMFG!!1 U r teh genius take my rupiez!” take things on a case by case basis.
OSNews as of late has deteriorated to name calling and the such. I should have known on the sort of thread this was going to be, just by reading the first two post.
Lastly I appologise if anyone took offense to any of my comments, but that’s how I feel, and I hope that some of the comments I made were of some use to someone.
That’s pretty much what I have noticed. The bone is there, but the meat isn’t.
I guess nobody cares how they beat the MIT since they are too busy slinging shit to americans. I mean, it is an excellent opportunity to evacuate all this accumulated angst/stress. And of course, it’s just easier to label every american citizen with the typical redneck stereotypes to blame them for all their problems (google “Blame Canada!”). It’s cathartic!
Then again, it’s nice to see that people at the other side of the ocean are not that different from us… I mean, they are proud, elitist, not really civilised…
Great! More of my tax dollars going to support people who come to this country. We already give them free electricity, food stamps, and welfare. Now, they want a free college education?
What about all the poor people who live here in America? I think its time we start supporting Americans instead of all these foreigners.
If you want to absorb the U.S.’s illegal immigrants into Poland, don’t put the economic burden on the U.S. to send them there. You can pay to have them brought to your country, where I’m sure your populace will be ecstatic to receive them.
Americans don’t refuse jobs. They wont work for substandard wages or work conditions.
People who hire illegals are unscrupulous characters who exploit human misery.
Illegal is Illegal. There is no suger coating it. You can’t play down the fact using statments that they are “Bright Young Men”
More like “Bright Young Frauds”.
I would like to have their title stripped and them to return to Mexico post haste. My ambition now is to see that happens.
I respect those that work hard and do the right things in life. If I were to move to another country, I would apply to be a citizen there. Not unlike these cheats who walk across the border and say, “Here I am, give me your money”. That’s like a robber coming into a gas station and robbing it. That’s againest the law and so are these illegals.
> Actually, I think it means we are the number one power. Sorry
> if you’re having trouble dealing with that.
The problem you have is that you really think that US is number one power… it’s really funny (or maybe not funny at all).
USA is relatively small nation 300mln (in usa they use bln) and when you change your country into gettho you will soon see how hard is to compete with EU, or much bigger China.
You are currently number one in economy and propably your army is number one too, but let’s think about this for a while…
Imagine for a while your economy without Eastern Europe, China, Japan, Mexico…. than you’ll see that most products from US companies are not even developed in USA.
And I’m sure that current situation will really change pretty fast. For example – IBM sold it’s PC group to Lenovo – company from China.
Your economy depends on oil… but you almost don’t have your own oil.
I wonder how your economy could look without oil from Kuwait, Iraq or Wenesuela.
And now about army… sorry to say this but your army can fight only with really small and weak enemies.
You love freedom? You want democracy all over world? Go on and attack China… We’ll see how 1 300 000 000 will cover US with their hats.
And another stupid thing is that your country is able to win war with Iraq but when they win they have no idea what to do with this “freedom” they created in destroyed country.
(they thought that Iraqi people will welcome their soldiers with flowers 🙂 )
BTW you could look at Human Development Index (United Nations) your conutry is 8-th. Norway is leader.
Anyway go on and close borders more tightly, start another war and you will soon see that your country will lost it’s “number one” mark very fast.
No freebies . Everyone works for their money . No more immagrant and illegal freebies . Sorry .
You could just have said “I am jealous of your conditions so I’ll bitch you while making you dumb”. I know many american friends and they are definitely not ignorant. They are fully aware of what you are saying. Unfortunately, they are completely powerless because of the current political/corporate establishment. It will probably get saner once the baby booms are out… That might be too late, though.
The US is currently the number one power. For how long? History will tell. But you will have good memories once it becomes China, trust me. Judging by their interal policies (censorship, human rights, Taiwan), it won’t be a switch for the better.
Any country can lose the ”number one” mark .
Stop being so jelious . I used to never think this was true about the residents of other countries concerning usa but wahat a complex you guys have .
Dont go and cry about it .. ahhaa
”inferiority complex” I agree now .
Btw , Illegals harm any country and i am not going to give up my country cause you europians would love to see it fall ..Good luck with trying that . You will fail in any attempt .
In about 50 years, the US will no longer be a superpower.
> Btw , Illegals harm any country and i am not going to give up
> my country cause you europians would love to see it fall
> ..Good luck with trying that . You will fail in any attempt .
1. And we got this again – you think that “illegals” are bad while I think and I’m pretty sure that they aren’t.
Why? Because 01.05.2004 – 10 new countries joined EU, they citizens were “illegals” in “old” EU countries for years, and now they can work and settle legally in any EU country.
People in UK, Germany expected that they will see hundreds of thousands of hungry and angry immigrants that will ruin their countries… nothing happened.
Currently I earn about 2-3000 usd/month – I could about twice in UK but believe me I prefer to live where I got my home, family and friends. And I’m pretty happy with this.
So, I think that US could open borders and there could be problems for month or two but believe me that not all Mexicans wants to drive cabs and wash toilets in US.
2. We don’t want US to fall, we just want US to understand that they really are not “number one” and it’s not important who is – we all have strong relations, we need each others and we don’t need to compete all the time. We just don’t want US to start another war near our borders. You can fight on your own territory with Canada or Mexico – but don’t start wars near our homes.
And we wan’t US to be less arrogant and selfish – that’s all.
> And we got this again – you think that “illegals” are bad
> while I think and I’m pretty sure that they aren’t.
>
> Why? Because 01.05.2004 – 10 new countries joined EU, they
> citizens were “illegals” in “old” EU countries for years,
> and now they can work and settle legally in any EU
> country.
Illegal immigrants undermine the economic and security interests of the nations to which they enter. If you were illegally entering other European countries prior to being allowed to be a member of the EU, you were doing just that. Poland joined the EU and with that its citizens gained legal recognition by the other members that would permit them to have lives within their borders that someone entering illegally from a non-member would not. There is a difference in the life one leads when one is invited into the property of another, and when one invites themself.
Many European countries know that; they generally have less than open-armed immigration laws, and haven’t exactly broken down my door to let me partake in their social welfare systems. There are countless Africans living in absolute Hell, and not a single nation has taken upon itself to open its borders to all of them to bestow upon them the kindness of socialism and the benefit of their educational infrastructure.
I live in Arizona and believe that illegal immigration is illegal. But just for a moment let’s put them thru college. Every technology good paying job I have had requires a background check. Even if they get a college degree they cannot pass a background check.
By the way my ancestors came thru Ellis Island legally by filling out the forms and paperwork over 150 years ago.
I have no problem with legal immigration. And yes I did yardwork and lower paying jobs to pay for my college. It inspired me to get educated and better jobs on my own.
Of a race of people that engineered great pyramids ,vast aquaduct systems and had a calender the was every bit as accurate as the modern one.Somehow this news doesn’t surprise me.I’ll bet most people don’t think of that when they think Mexicans.One of these days they are going to re-emerge from the dark ages of centuries of spanish oppression.The folks that are putting these kids down just plain make me sick and tired,and it’s a shame I’m just one of the working poor here in the US that can’t even afford to send my own kids to college,because I would gladly kick down some tuition money to these fine young people if I weren’t!
… This topic is so not os.news it isn’t even funny. It is obvious nobody is going to convince anybody here.
The Mayan Calendar ends around 2012. That is the end of the world.
The Mayan Calendar ends around 2012. That is the end of the world.
The bible or how they call the club talks about 2013.
1) No humam being is born illegaly.
2) a 6 year old kid is not reponsible for where it is taken by his parents
3) This kid did nothing criminal.
4) There exists a law which transforms a young man who never did anything criminal or amoral into someone who is illegal.
ME THINKS THAT LAW IS CRAP, NOT THE KID WHO “BROKE” IT.
This is why I usually refer to these people as illegalized, not illegal. They would be illegal if they start stealing or become criminal otherwise.
An other matter are adult immigrants, they are responsible for what they do.
Its fairly funny to me that I asked which countries would do otherwise (a few pages back) and I don’t even get 1 response. We just keep getting flames against ‘white Americans’.
David Adams posted an article thinking about doing a good deed and it has turned into a citizen argument.
I was born in the USA so I am not too familar with all the loops and hurdles it takes to become a USA citizen. I would like to know how many years and how much money does it take to become a citizen. Is this price too high or should it be higher?
Now that ideal of the USA being the Big Melting Pot is gone and the words on the Statue of Liberty mean close to nothing, what kind of country does the USA want to be?
It is kind of ironic that the current administration preaches the wonders of freedom to other nations but is slowly closing doors in this country.
For those wanting to kick the kids out of this country, I hope you also want to kick their hard working parents out too. I would hate to think you were family wreckers.
You mean illegal, right? Fuck your god damned political correctness. THEY’RE HERE ILLEGALLY. Don’t sugar coat it.
1st I’d like to say this guy who used my name in the subject saying that I thought that the US of A was #1 power. Truth is, I did say that and I still think that’s true. However your post later addesses me as if I were in favor of it; I am not.
2nd: To those morons “gringos” who think that we as Europeans are Jealous, I have to laugh out loud in front of your pale fat Yanki face. You don’t get it, do you? We don’t like the US of A. We don’t care. We don’t give a shit. In fact we, as a Comunitty (U.E.) have everything we need. We’re growing, we’ve got strong relations with China and we’re adding more and more countries to the communitiy.
But what am I saying… you don’t even know what a Community is, you don’t even care about Canadians.
Enjoy your momentum, while it lasts. Unforunelly, the US of A either learns to behave in front of the world or will surely descend quickly in the list of powers.
The world is changing my mate… the Dollar will no longer mean anything (as it does now), the cheap labor will take over your industries. (and after all, you don’t have a clue how a car should look like). You have bad habits, you eat shitty food, you have fat people all over around, your economy is sustained by monkeys, all you have is the Dollar, and why too much freedom to spend it in useless stuff.
The equation is simple. Maybe the USA will always be on the top ten list, however, you’ll have to use all your “power” to commerce with yourself. No one will want to do anything with a nation so selfish.
And finally, tell me the truth, don’t you hate the “huuuu!” yell they do in the movies… it’s quite stupid. (Think of college or high school movies).
Yeah, I am jealous. Independance Day. Yeah. Get a life.
2. We don’t want US to fall, we just want US to understand that they really are not “number one” and it’s not important who is – we all have strong relations, we need each others and we don’t need to compete all the time. We just don’t want US to start another war near our borders. You can fight on your own territory with Canada or Mexico – but don’t start wars near our homes.
And we wan’t US to be less arrogant and selfish – that’s all.
Please point out which war we started near Poland. I’ll be waiting patiently. Seems to me that every time we have deployed military troops into combat in Europe it has been to save ungrateful European pricks like you. They say that those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it. I’d say folks like you are a classic example. I’ll go ahead and tell you “Your welcome” in advance, since my grandkids will probably have to fight another war to pull you Europeans out of trouble yet again…though I don’t expect a “Thank you.” When you have to come over here to pull our asses out of the fire twice in the space of 50 years, then we’ll talk. Until then, you are just making yourself look like a fool. Americans really don’t have any interest in remaining the worlds “official superpower” because we are confident that we can do whatever it takes to sustain ourselves in spite of any obstacles that are thrown into our path. I’m sure I don’t need to remind you that our country was coming our of a deep depression and was in pretty dire straits economically, militarily, and socially back at the start of WWII, yet we still had the wherewithal to pull together and fight a two front war to save the world. Any future American decline will be temporary, you can rest assured of that. When the chips are down, you want the good ole USA on your side. Don’t worry, we’ll be there for you when you need us just like we always have been…in spite of your lack of gratitude.
I am amazed about the bitterness and how close minded some people are.
I do agree that they should not be illegally in the US; nevertheless, these people do not understand how difficult is to even survive in some developing countries. I doubt these people have been in poor countries like Uguanda or Colombia.
In any case, these people probably are pretty dumb to not understand how valuable these type of kids could be for the US economy. These kids have to be pretty smart to beat students from top Universities (High school kids beating students from MIT university which, had much more money and resources!).
Many of the fastest growing companies in US were founded or co-founded by immigrants or people whose parents were immigrants (to say a few: Ebay, NVidia, etc).
First we are talking about helping some kids. This is not an issue on international affairs. You know why our world is falling apart we don’t like to help other. And if we do we always expect something in return (wich is not too bad) as long as you don’t cross the line. These kids have talent, they have worked as hard as you and just cuze you never got helped to make it this far, that doesn’t mean that you can’t help. I think you guys who know that it’s hard to make it thru life you should be the one helping more. This forum is becoming a battlefield for stupid ppl that don’t know what they are talking about. I really don’t care who is the best or the worst country. The bottom line is that you will find morons everywhere. I will just remind you all this is about the kids. Everybody in the States, Canada and all over America are immigrants. Mexican (Indians) have been in this continent longer than American, so for those stupid American that don’t know anything about history SHUT UP, no one is better! I don’t care what you say! Some of you might freak, some of you had a rough life. So, you made it so far that fine, help others. Yeah I am preaching you know why, ppl care only about them self. Human care about everyone, you know for a Nation to become stronger they need allies. America needs the world, and The world need America. For those that think i am wrong, don’t be stupid. The American Economy is important to all, even those country you think that they are just crap. Well think about it, some of them make the shirt you are wearing. All I want to say is that, lets get on the topic. Let’s help other! While we can… Please, forget about the color, forget about if they are here illegaly. America is a multi-cultural place, most ppl in the Army are not American, we all try to contribute to the well being of this nation. And if it’s falling apart it’s because of ppl.
Thank you!
We didn’t crossed the border. The border crossed us.
I will just remind you all this is about the kids.
You are absolutely correct. It is about the kids. I don’t want my kids having to pay taxes through the nose to support the overburdened social programs that many illegal immigrants take advantage of.
America is a multi-cultural place, most ppl in the Army are not American
Please cite a source to back up this ridiculous assertion.
I wonder how your economy could look without oil from Kuwait, Iraq or Wenesuela.
The US does not import oil from Kuwait or Iraq and more recently not from Venezuela either. Most of our oild comes from Saudi Arabia and Domestic sources. If push come to shove look for alternate fuel sources and technology to come from America like so many other technologies such as the Computer you are typing on and the internet you are using to read this post.
BTW you could look at Human Development Index (United Nations) your conutry is 8-th. Norway is leader.
The UN? the most corrupt organization on the planet? their significance in the world faded long ago. Who cares what they say hopefully they will be looking for a new home soon.
Anyway go on and close borders more tightly, start another war and you will soon see that your country will lost it’s “number one” mark very fast.
Good let someone else pay to police the world i am tired of paying for it. The EU can go ahead and be the world leaders from now on feed the millions of starving peoples in the world.
We just don’t want US to start another war near our borders. You can fight on your own territory with Canada or Mexico – but don’t start wars near our homes.
Last time i checked we prevented and contained the last war that was anywhere near Poland(Former Yugoslavia). A war that didn’t in the least bit pose a threat to our national security. I don’t remeber any Europeans protesting in the streets then about how we are killing babies and all that crap. Of course when we do conduct a war to protect our national iterests you people bitch about it.
And we wan’t US to be less arrogant and selfish – that’s all.
Your bias new media presents the US that way. I have seen it myself watching BBC and other German news channels. If you spent any time in the US you would know different. Don’t make the mistake like so many other europeans that have a negative attitude about the US becasue they visited one major city like New York or Miami. Keep in mind that the US is big country with many many types of people including Polish people the source of so many of our Polish jokes.
Please point out which war we started near Poland. I’ll be waiting patiently.
And you will have to wait a lot of time, cuz I didn’t say anything about that, you’re mistaken, please review the post again or include the IP Address in case someone is using my name (gryzor).
And the US of A think that is doing a police work… for god’s sake, WHO TOLD YOU THAT YOU HAD TO DO ANY POLICE WORK? Go, close your borders and STFU! Nobody is looking for the stupid police protection that you *THINK* that you’re offering. (This goes for that Patrol guy).
THat’s what CNN sells.
The world has been o.k. without anyone playing the rule of ´god´. And in any case, if there’s someone needed for that role, is NOT the USA. You’re obviously not doing a good job, you ought to get fired. Now go back to your Mc Donalds, and start frying French Fries (lamers!) You are SO closed minded and SO ignorant of international affairs and general culture, that you scare the hell out of you when Janet Jackson shows a tit in front of millions.. “Oh my god!!!! did you just seeeeeeee that??????? a TIT!?!?!?! ”
The world is making fun of you, can’t you realize that? The US is hillariouos, all they do is funny. Then you just rename “French Fries” to “Freedom Fries” because the French didn’t want to go to iraq, for god’s sake, not everybody is as stupid as the media citizen of the US of A as to believe that they were freeing a nation.
Idiots, the Think Tankâ„¢ in washington saw the need for the Fuel,now, or in the future, that’s why the US of A is not spending their own reserves, but eagerly waiting to deplete the rest first. Organize a war, get control, fool the monkeys that live in here with freedom stuff, they believe, and go ahead.
To the average citizen of the US of A, things are as simple as: Give ’em credit, money, convince ’em that we’re using their money to save the world, do not teach ’em anything about culture but ours, and they’ll do what we want.
Too easy, just as I thought.
LOL!
Nice job with the world (sarcasm), now… what about doing something to your empty minded inhabitants that can only carry a gun and shoot.. shoot.. shoot… themselves.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/07/canton.shooting/index.html
Mat Groening was right.
Nuff said.
“tax-paying members of society instead of existing in a black market economy and providing little benefit.”
Migrant workers do NOT pay into Social Security. They get to take all their money back to Mexico. In the meantime, they get to DRAW Social Security benefits. SOmetimes crime DOES pay, especially if you can find a minority class of some sort to belong to.
With all of the publicity, it is likely that the Immigration and Naturalization Services will locate them and deport them to Mexico. Then they can build robots in Mexico without the undeserved aid of our tax money.
If I were an illegal immigrant in THEIR country, I would expect the very same.
Malcolm X needs to chill with those treating women as sex objects comments.A true gentleman does not flaunt. Obviously you are not one. Its jackasses like him that are ruining culture and civilization.
As for my opinion regarding the thread we are talking about, I cannot make judgement based on the information given. I think the law is not really blind since it is a man made construct and hence what is good for one persos is not good for another.
I am an immigrant myself, my dad has been in the software business for 20 years and he always knew and understood the benefit of being Western educated not because it was better than what we receive in India but because there are areas where a lot of other countries lack and that is fluency in English, well manners, presentation skills and a lot of open mindedness that is prevalent in this country. That is what makes this country great. We immigrated legally and now we have green cards and I just finished my CS degree from a Univ of California, and I even have a great American girlfriend whom I will most likely end up marrying. You need to realize that America is a great country because of all the freedom that is available here but it is not the only country like this. Yes there is a lot of hype, a lot of reasons why I can see now that America will not be the #1 country after a few decades.
It is true that if we look back in history white people have been oppressing the hell out of a lot of cultures. But they have also brought about the most innovation and technology. It is a scenario where to achieve something trampling over other people is required I think. My country was under the yoke of British rule once and while I am proud of my country I am not still holding a grudge against them. What has happened has happened. History is for us to learn and not make those same mistakes again. I could have stayed back in my country and received a far superior education, but just the way things are right now, and what I have seen go on with my dad because he was not American educated I decided to come here and study. I like America and I appreciate what it has given me, but I fear for people like Malcolm X and some people who are so uhh….violently patriotic that they make the mistake of isolating themselves and America from the rest of the world by making stupid comments. America needs the world, the world does not need America, I think that is the main point.
These kids in my opinion should be sent back to their country and thats all. The doors will be left open for them, maybe a counsellor provided who will guide them through the process of becoming a legit US citizen and thus protection provided for them but nothing more. I think that is fair enough.
Malcolm X and some people who are so uhh….violently patriotic that they make the mistake of isolating themselves and America from the rest of the world by making stupid comments.
Malcom X felt no sense of patriotism towards the United States, and nor should he have.
I have never heard Malcolm X make a stupid comment.
These kids deserve some form of higher-education, and I think MIT should step up. Anyone who dosn’t feel this way is a fool.
Ask yourself the last time you built a robot, let alone one that can travel under-water and beat students from M. I. fucking T.
There are many illegals in the U.S. military. If you claim to have served, you should know this. Some of them have even had their families deported while they are in Iraq. I know a local family who’s son was killed. His recruiter told him that they would see to it that him and his family got to be citizens — didn’t happen. They are all illegal immigrants from Sinaloa, Mexico.
> The US does not import oil from Kuwait or Iraq and more
> recently not from Venezuela either.
Oh really?
Than take a look here: http://www.gravmag.com/oil.html#imports
Venezuela – 11%, MEXICO – 13%!, Iraq – 4%.
> Good let someone else pay to police the world i am tired of
> paying for it. The EU can go ahead and be the world leaders
> from now on feed the millions of starving peoples in the
> world.
Sorry but we all pay for it not only you. My poor country sent 2500 soldiers to Iraq (I’m very ashamed of it).
> Last time i checked we prevented and contained the last war
> that was anywhere near Poland(Former Yugoslavia).
And you propably are blind and cannot see that Iraq is much closer to Poland than to US.
> Of course when we do conduct a war to protect our national
> iterests you people bitch about it.
Ok, then tell me what national interests you protected?
How Iraq could threat you? Or maybe you found those imagined “weapon of mass destrucion”?
And we wan’t US to be less arrogant and selfish – that’s all.
> Your bias new media presents the US that way. I have seen
> it myself watching BBC and other German news channels. If
>you spent any time in the US you would know different.
1. Believe me, I don’t want to go to US and I don’t want to spend $100 to get visa…
2. Media = people if people feel this way then media show things in that way.
3. So again remember that we want to live in peace, “cold war” is over and you should learn how to live in peace.
Than you could open your borders just like EU did for 10 new countries and live in peace and symbiosis with Mexicans and another nations.
But propably your national interest is to sell more weapon and this is why it is so hard to live in peace for you.
> Keep in mind that the US is big country with many many
> types of people including Polish people the source of so
> many of our Polish jokes.
Those people are another story, they came out from communist country, they didn’t know how to live in capitalism, they had nothing and as you propably know freedom is important but you need eat too.
So, I hope that now people that go to US from my country are not source of jokes.
But it’s sad that you can make jokes from poor people, shame on you.
The Malcolm X I was talking about sorry…my bad he posted on this thread…Malcom XXX something like that was just a loudmouth punk. Hehe not THE Malcolm X.
>Please point out which war we started near Poland.
Take a map and look where Iraq is, where is Poland and where is US.
And you propably don’t remember but after your troops bombed Yugoslavia refugees still live in Poland – not in US.
And sure you didn’t start this war but we had to help those people not you.
> I’ll be waiting patiently. Seems to me that every time we
> have deployed military troops into combat in Europe it has
> been to save ungrateful European pricks like you. They say
> that those who do not study history are doomed to repeat
> it. I’d say folks like you are a classic example. I’ll go
> ahead and tell you “Your welcome” in advance, since my
> grandkids will probably have to fight another war to pull
> you Europeans out of trouble yet again…though I don’t
> expect a “Thank you.” When you have to come over here to
> pull our asses out of the fire twice in the space of 50
> years, then we’ll talk. Until then, you are just making
> yourself look like a fool.
Are you sure that you know history?
The only nation we really should say “thank you” are Russians (of course only for WWII not for this what they did to my country after WWII). Because we have graves of their soldiers on our land, not yours soldiers.
We can only say “f**** you” for Yalta.
> Don’t worry, we’ll be there for you when you need us just
> like we always have been…in spite of your lack of
> gratitude.
US never was on our side directly. Sure you helped to destroy Nazi Germany but you also helped them to go rich and strong again after war (Marshall plan).
And currently WE are on your side (2500 troops in Iraq)…
The US does not import oil from Kuwait or Iraq and more recently not from Venezuela either. Most of our oild comes from Saudi Arabia and Domestic sources. If push come to shove look for alternate fuel sources and technology to come from America like so many other technologies such as the Computer you are typing on and the internet you are using to read this post.
Fifty years ago, america was definately the tech leaders of the world. now? its still up there, but i would say japan passed you guys awhile ago.
The UN? the most corrupt organization on the planet? their significance in the world faded long ago. Who cares what they say hopefully they will be looking for a new home soon.
Actually, if you knew your history, you would know that america was responsable for both the creation, and corruption of the UN. Im talking about the america/britan/israel voting bloc that vetos more then anyone else. The UN was the ONE good thing to come out of WWII, and now the american right simply wants to dismiss it, and install themselves in its place.
Good let someone else pay to police the world i am tired of paying for it. The EU can go ahead and be the world leaders from now on feed the millions of starving peoples in the world.
I know americans are provincial, but you should realise the world hates you guys for policing the world. right or wrong is irrelivent, most people see you guys as the next nazi germany, and consider the US the biggest threat to world peace.
Last time i checked we prevented and contained the last war that was anywhere near Poland(Former Yugoslavia). A war that didn’t in the least bit pose a threat to our national security. I don’t remeber any Europeans protesting in the streets then about how we are killing babies and all that crap. Of course when we do conduct a war to protect our national iterests you people bitch about it.
you have got to be kidding me.
1) the reason america went in was because GWB convinced congress he had “irrefutable proof” of WMDs in iraq.
2) this has been shown to be false, the former director of the cia ended up resigning because of it, and even though there are a great many rumors of clandestine meetings with him and cheny, this has yet to be proven. but regardless, your own governament acknowledges it has no reason to be there.
3) there have been reports that the cia source actually came from reports passed on by german intelligence. there has also been stories that german intelligence warned the cia that the source wasnt exactly solid, although the people who were responsable for that information deny it. once again, ignoring the conspiracy theories, the source was bad and germany knew it.
4) currently, there is no reason for america to be in iraq, other then the pride of GWB. the people want the americans out, and it is turning into another vietnam. Kerrys exit strategy made sense (granted, its one of the only things he said that made sense), apologize to the global community you snubbed, as for peacekeeping forces to come in to establish a new governament. The fighting is not going to stop while american troops are on iraqi soil, and this is obvious to anyone who does not get their news from CNN.
Your bias new media presents the US that way. I have seen it myself watching BBC and other German news channels. If you spent any time in the US you would know different. Don’t make the mistake like so many other europeans that have a negative attitude about the US becasue they visited one major city like New York or Miami. Keep in mind that the US is big country with many many types of people including Polish people the source of so many of our Polish jokes.
You are correct, there is a very anti-american bias in the world media atm. But america has violated international law by this illegal war, the very laws they pushed for in nuremburg. By all rights, the UN should have declaired war on america. Thank god they didnt, but it came damn close. Instead of german/japan/italy, it would have been america/britan/israel vs the world.
So yes, there is a strong anti-american bias in the world today. All it takes is looking at how the bush administration has acted on the world stage to see why. I think like most things, people get angry about things they dont fully understand, so you will get alot of uneducated insults about stuff that doesnt make much sense. Ignore them. But americans need to realise that if their governament is truley a democracy, they are responsable for its actions. This lack of responsability is why your governament is corrupt as it is (ignoring things that cant be proven, theres big juicy ones like the haliburton scandle, or the fact that you are currently occupying a foreign country because of a cia foobar.).
Its actually a little scary, america believes they were the main guys in WW2, even though they only showed up about half way through, and made blunder after blunder.
I am a canadian, and when I have travelled in europe, I have gotten nothing but respect. I never would have expected that, but people remember that while the russians were almost as bad as the nazis when they liberated a city, and the americans “liberating” a city usually left it demolished, the canadians actually managed to help the civilians, and went out of their way to not leave a trail of leveled cities in their wake.
By contrast, every american film, game, or book will portray them as the heros of WW2, with the brits kinda along for the ride, and as little mention of russia as humanly possible. They walk through europe like they own the place, and are astonished when they are met with anger. “What, how can these people hate us, we freed them from the nazis!”.
I think it’s wonderful, that capacity they seem to have in the USA to rewrite history in real time, and to not be bothered by facts, timelines…
Actually, if you knew your history, you would know that america was responsable for both the creation, and corruption of the UN.
I am well aware of the history of the UN was a good idea then but turned out to be a worthless endeavour.
But america has violated international law by this illegal war, the very laws they pushed for in nuremburg. By all rights, the UN should have declaired war on america. Thank god they didnt, but it came damn close. Instead of german/japan/italy, it would have been america/britan/israel vs the world.
Please! if you you believe that you are seriously flawed in the head. Illegal war whatever! The course of the United States will never be dictated by a group sniveling whiners that are more concerned about hurting someones feelings and protecting their own corruption then doing what has to be done for the betterment of the world(history will vindicate these times).
you have got to be kidding me.
1) the reason america went in was because GWB convinced congress he had “irrefutable proof” of WMDs in iraq.
2) this has been shown to be false, the former director of the cia ended up resigning because of it, and even though there are a great many rumors of clandestine meetings with him and cheny, this has yet to be proven. but regardless, your own governament acknowledges it has no reason to be there.
3) there have been reports that the cia source actually came from reports passed on by german intelligence. there has also been stories that german intelligence warned the cia that the source wasnt exactly solid, although the people who were responsable for that information deny it. once again, ignoring the conspiracy theories, the source was bad and germany knew it.
4) currently, there is no reason for america to be in iraq, other then the pride of GWB. the people want the americans out, and it is turning into another vietnam. Kerrys exit strategy made sense (granted, its one of the only things he said that made sense), apologize to the global community you snubbed, as for peacekeeping forces to come in to establish a new governament. The fighting is not going to stop while american troops are on iraqi soil, and this is obvious to anyone who does not get their news from CNN.
You conveniently left out the fact that there was 13 years of failed diplomacy and non-compliance with UN mandates that were put in place after the first gulf war with the condition of comply or else. You also fail to mention the oil for food program; better known as make Europe rich on the backs of Iraqi’s program. You need to come up with a better argument.
Its actually a little scary, america believes they were the main guys in WW2, even though they only showed up about half way through, and made blunder after blunder.
The worst blunder being wasting so many lives to liberate France.
I am a canadian, and when I have travelled in europe, I have gotten nothing but respect.
Becasue Canadians are America haters too you fit right in.
I never would have expected that, but people remember that while the russians were almost as bad as the nazis when they liberated a city, and the americans “liberating” a city usually left it demolished, the canadians actually managed to help the civilians, and went out of their way to not leave a trail of leveled cities in their wake.
Which is easy to say when Canada didn’t do any of the hard fighting and dieing. Funny i don’t recall Canadas contribution to rebuilding Europe after WW2 or defending them from the Soviet Union during the cold war. What about rebuilding Japan? the Phillipines? i wonder what country did that?
Let me start off by saying that I’m a white, native-born american, descendant from “Native American” blood and “European” blood. I do not believe it is accurate to call me an immigrant, as I was natively born on US soil. I received my citizenship as a residual right from the citizenship of my parents, who were also born on US soil. I don’t think it’s fair to say that “everyone in the US is an immigrant”, this simply isn’t true any more. Every human is descendant from humans who “immigrated” from Africa/Asia uncountable years ago, we have to draw the line somewhere. I’m sorry if this offends, but someone who was born in another country and moved to the US is more of an immigrant than I am. As a white american I would like to point out that I’m not racist, I do not support current American millitary efforts, and I’m not some fat lazy capitalist drinking the blood of brown people. I was born with my own position in life, and I have worked hard to make the best of it that I could, it is racist and prejudiced to say I have any particular obligations as a white american that others don’t have. I don’t oppress anybody, I give to charity, I am politically vocal on issues that I feel are important, and I resent anyone who would characterize me otherwise. If we are to achieve unity as a species we have to let go of old debts that could never be repaid anyways.
It is interesting how emotional an issue this is, and how clearly emotion clouds judgement on both sides of the debate. I totally understand both the desire to provide social services (including subsidized education) for all people equally, and the fear of supporting social leeches with these services without receiving any social benefit. The “ratio system” we have in the US is one of taxation – the higher up you are on the economic scale, the more you pay; the logic being that the more money you have, the more you benefit from society, therefore you should contribute more back to society.
There is an unfortunate problem in this system in that the wealthy are often able to manipulate the tax system to pay less, the people who most utilize free social services contribute the least to the economic pool, and the slack is made up by overtaxing the middle class, which leads to the middle class resenting the lower class. This problem is exacerbated by the presence of individuals who don’t pay all of the required taxes by still benefit from social services. I have read the arguments in this thread that illegal immigrants pay “more than their fair share” of taxes, but it is my experience that most illegal immigrants (I have had a number of friends who were illegal, and have worked with illegals in construction trades) are paid in cash under the table in exchange for a lower wage or worse/illegal conditions. While I have no doubt that there are some illegal immigrants who pay in to Social Security and whatnot with no hope of reaping the benefits, this is not the general condition.
The US can provide social services for a limited number of people, this is only rational, we do not have infinite resources. Libertarians ( a political party in the US) advocate completely opening the borders and eliminating all free social services, therefore people would be free to come to the US and work, but would not receive free health care, education, etc. There is no workable way to provide free social services that would ensure the quality of life that is deemed acceptable by American culture for an unlimited number of applicants, there is nothing ethically wrong with drawing a line at a certain point as to who is entitled to these services, it is the ONLY way to provide such services at all.
That said, there is no reason why individuals should be prevented from contributing money to any charity or fund that they see fit. I for one would rather have more robotics engineers than another few fast-food servers. For those of you who don’t want to contribute to this fund (I am one of these), no one is forcing you, but aiming resentment at these kids because no one paid your way through school is at best somewhat misplaced.
There’s no simple solution to the immigration problem, and has been pointed out on this thread, there are conflicting interests in the US about the economic value of illegal immigrants. I just wish everyone would take a step back and try to see both sides of the issue, and relax the animosity a bit. Perhaps then we could begin to solve the problem.
Smartpatrol:
“Last time i checked we prevented and contained the last war that was anywhere near Poland(Former Yugoslavia). A war that didn’t in the least bit pose a threat to our national security. I don’t remeber any Europeans protesting in the streets then about how we are killing babies and all that crap.”
and you’re right – you’ve done well there ; it’s a shame on Europe that we couldn’t tackle with it by ourselves
“Your bias new media presents the US that way.”
actually the “new” (?) polish media show you in a fairly good light – people from at least the WW2 perceive Americans as allies and are very grateful for what you did back then ;
but on the other side it’s hard not to see your ignorance (especially about anything outside your country)- let’s just say that when i was in highschool and one of the worst student in our school went to US on exchange program, after a year he returned with a local news paper (becouse no one would believe him otherwise) showing him as a best student of their school ; common mistake i find in Scintific American – reffering to USA as a “world” ; and from outside you really seam like arrogants – sorry to say
your bigotry doesn’t look very good either (remember Schiavo?); the law execution? – how about claim for huge recompense from big company for not metnioning that the coffe is hot (well – i wouldn’t figure it out by myself
few of my friends actually were in USA for about a year, know what thay said when they came back ? – big disappointment
and about that war in Iraq – it was started without a real reason, but _maybe_ eventually it will become something good
as to Europeon part in it – France basic export product is …wine ? – no… – guns! military industry ; and their disagreeing with GDB has nothing to do with fairness – they become arrogant and egocentric too ; thay (namely Chirac) have their mouth open widely, but when it comes to act….
IP: —.e-dev.tele2.pl:
“The only nation we really should say “thank you” are Russians (of course only for WWII not for this what they did to my country after WWII). Because we have graves of their soldiers on our land, not yours soldiers.”
WTF ? maybe we should thank them for the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact ? – for attacking as from back stating that it is liberating just after Germans crossed our boundaries ? that is blunt fucking LIE ; of course the red army fought with Hitler, but that was not from the beginning ; and Russians were perhaps even greater danger for Poland then the Germans.
and that is fact that W.D.Roosvelt and Churchill sold our country to this son of a whore – Jo Stalin – from what i hear – USA and GB then was most thankful for what Russians did with Hitlers army than what Poland did to prove it is worth independence.
is worthless, yeah, lets bring in illegals and give them all sorts of shit while so many people that really need it live on the street. Change the world, send an illegal home and give a bum a buck.
“The only nation we really should say “thank you” are Russians (of course only for WWII not for this what they did to my country after WWII). Because we have graves of their soldiers on our land, not yours soldiers.”
WTF ? maybe we should thank them for the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact ? – for attacking as from back stating that it is liberating just after Germans crossed our boundaries ? that is blunt fucking LIE ; of course the red army fought with Hitler, but that was not from the beginning ; and Russians were perhaps even greater danger for Poland then the Germans. ”
You are absolutely right but I said we could say “thank you” for what they did during war. For their fight with Germans – nothing more.
But I wrote this as reaction to those words:
> I’ll go
> ahead and tell you “Your welcome” in advance, since my
> grandkids will probably have to fight another war to pull
> you Europeans out of trouble yet again…though I don’t
> expect a “Thank you.” When you have to come over here to
> pull our asses out of the fire twice in the space of 50
> years, then we’ll talk.
And I think that we at least could say thank you to Russians – we have graves of their soldiers in almost every city – but say thank you to Americans? What for?
Anyway we had very important and emotional day today in Poland, And we all feel very proud to be Polish, but also especially today we think about peace, tolerance, human dignity etc.
So, now I’m really upset after reading all those posts form US “citizens” but I don’t want to argue anymore if they don’t understand simple things.
I just from today will cut any donations to any open source projects that are managed by US citizens. They just don’t deserve to get my money.
I am well aware of the history of the UN was a good idea then but turned out to be a worthless endeavour.
The purpose of the UN was to prevent another hitler. This was, and alwas will be a good idea. The US has done what they could to invalidate that, and now is acting in direct opposition to them. This a bad thing.
Please! if you you believe that you are seriously flawed in the head. Illegal war whatever! The course of the United States will never be dictated by a group sniveling whiners that are more concerned about hurting someones feelings and protecting their own corruption then doing what has to be done for the betterment of the world(history will vindicate these times).
are you really so tied to your partisan politics that you cannot see this is another vietnam? it will be remembered in exactly the same way, one of the most brutal, drawn out, bloody, and utterly useless wars in history.
You conveniently left out the fact that there was 13 years of failed diplomacy and non-compliance with UN mandates that were put in place after the first gulf war with the condition of comply or else. You also fail to mention the oil for food program; better known as make Europe rich on the backs of Iraqi’s program. You need to come up with a better argument.
So basically, because of making europe rich, and not allowing UN investigators in, you see that as reason to invade their country? a war is a terrible thing, and must be done only in the last resort. to declair war is to basically say you lack the competance to resolve the situation in any other way, and have absolutely no time left to keep trying.
What you are giving me are low level republican reasons. Do you know why bush says you are there? Not because of failed deplomacy, but because you went in on false pretenses, and now cannot leave.
The worst blunder being wasting so many lives to liberate France.
Why would you say that? Because the french are so liberal, and you are obviously quite conservative? so basically, those who disagree with you on political matters should be left to die.
Its statements like that which make me question my longstanding policy of defending americans, while condemning their governament when speaking to people from other countries. In general, I find americans to be good and decent people. That perception has really begun to change though over the last two years or so.
Becasue Canadians are America haters too you fit right in.
I have many american friends. I believe that the american founders were some of the great revolutionaries in the history of the world. I believe your constitution (in its origional form at any rate) to be a true legislative work of art. I also believe that your current governament is in diametric opposition of your forefathers, and I believe the people at this point are caught up squabbling about such useless issues as gay marriage instead of trying to figure out how to fix your governament. I am most definately not an america hater, I have a greater respect for the ideals that built your country then you do.
Which is easy to say when Canada didn’t do any of the hard fighting and dieing. Funny i don’t recall Canadas contribution to rebuilding Europe after WW2 or defending them from the Soviet Union during the cold war. What about rebuilding Japan? the Phillipines? i wonder what country did that?
The canadian engineers were well respected in world war 2. our boys from newfoundland consistantly were in some of the dirtiest fighting, and we proportionally suffered some of the highest losses in the war.
Ill give you a bit of a history lesson to show you the difference. Every year, holland sends several hundred tulips to ottawa (our capital city). The reason for this is that the queen took refuge here during the war. She was with child, and when she gave birth, canada imported dutch soil so the future king would officially be dutch. Because of that, and liberating their country, to this day they send us gifts. If you happen to have a canadian flag on you in holland, you will be treated with an unbelievable amount of courtesy and respect.
This doesnt happen for americans. ever.
As for protecting europe during the war, supporting corrupt governaments (like the turks, who were the largest recipient of arms during the clinton era in exchange america putting missiles there, who then took those arms and used them to attempt genocide of the kurds) does not qualify as heroic. how about columbia, great ally of the states, and one of the top human rights violaters in the world according to amnesty international. what about saudi arabia, again, huge human rights violaters and one of the global hotspots for terrorists.
We didnt help rebuild japan, at the same time, we didnt nuke hiroshima. in fact, we just havnt nuked, period.
I really doubt I will reach you. I know people like you, on both the right, and the left, and reasoning with them is an exercise in futility. Hopefully though, I will be able to get some people thinking, reading, and researching. I wasnt joking when I said your forefathers were some of the great men in the history of the world, and I pray that someday, america reclaims the right and just governament of its past.
another comment on how canada is america haters. after 9/11 there were thousands of grounded americans who couldnt get back into the country. do you know that hundreds of maritime families opened their homes to total strangers?
Canada may not blindly support the american governament, just because americans do doesnt mean we hate you. It just means we wont kill for you without good reason.
> And I think that we at least could say thank you to Russians
> – we have graves of their soldiers in almost every city –
> but say thank you to Americans? What for?
You could always thank them for preventing further Soviet encroachment into Western Europe, which certainly helped there be an economically prosperous European Union for your country to join. Or maybe spending the Soviet Union into collapse in a suicidal arms race. Or supplying the UK with aid prior to entering WW II that helped it hold out against Nazi invasion, which in turn helped keep German forces spread thin.
While people from the U.S. often have a misunderstanding of the significance of their contributions in WW II, and those made after, I think certain other countries like to trivialize its contribution. While you can certainly feel justified in flaming pompous and ignorant members of the youth of the U.S., disregarding and insulting the acts of the people that actually made a difference during the war by trivializing their contributions is about the most callous thing you can do. They did more than a little, even if they weren’t as thoughtless with the lives of their soldiers as the Soviets, and didn’t happen to leave them on your doorstep.
> So, now I’m really upset after reading all those posts
> form US “citizens” but I don’t want to argue anymore if
> they don’t understand simple things.
You really don’t know the slightest bit about the U.S., and the longer you pretend to while feeling like you know some secret truth, the longer you’ll find that its citizens don’t care about what you have to say. There’s really nothing more amusing than some arrogant person complaining about how arrogant the U.S. is, then babble about something completely irrelevant, and pats themself on the back for how enlightened their original position is.
> I just from today will cut any donations to any open
> source projects that are managed by US citizens. They just
> don’t deserve to get my money.
Personally, I don’t want your money. I think you’re a pompous jerk, and if you want to cut off your nose to spite your face then feel free. You don’t really strike me as the charitable type, anyway.
> it will be remembered in exactly the same way, one of the
> most brutal, drawn out, bloody, and utterly useless wars in
> history.
I’m sorry. Just how many people do you think died in Vietnam? How many do you think have died in Iraq?
Also, out of curiosity, why is it that no one except the writers of MASH seem to even remember the Korean war?
Anyway, while people may babble about how useless Vietnam or the second war in Iraq were, they really will be a far stretch from the most brutal or bloody conflicts. And just being “one of” doesn’t exactly convey much context.
As for one of the most drawn out, they won’t even rank.
Do the right thing. Work hard and get paid. Once you get paid, pay of your tuition like the rest of America. Why do people feel “bad” for people who come from poverty? Everyone has the opportunity to make something for themselves if they work hard enough no matter where you come from.
astonishing to read how citizens in the US allow themselves to be divided. poor people fighting against poor people. a pity to see how this US-ideology (both dems as well as reps) have made you like this.
“I just from today will cut any donations to any open source projects that are managed by US citizens. They just don’t deserve to get my money.”
i don’t think it’s a good idea – we can’t generalize like that – definetly not all Americans are like that – i am almost certain that their unwillingness so many times expressed in posts is partly becouse of their faith, that you have to obey the rules no matter what (it’s somewhat related to their religion – i heard of explanations of american economy wealth – that is due to them beeing religious and patriotic at the same time – that makes them worh more efficiently…there is of course oil & lack of war on their land for many years) – and we here in Poland have long tradition of not obeying law and circumventing regulations whenever it’s possible – haver this feature isn’t of any value when we are independent, democratic, capitalistic country – maybe their wright that obeying law without hesitation is good, or maybe that is true only in America ; but still voices saying “i worked hard and didn’t have any help – why should he have?” aren’t one’s that i could agree with – we say here in Poland – that this is our national virtue – that we behave like that (i don’t have it – you can’t have it), but i would never expect anyone from here to say that he will not help becouce he didn’t get it either
and supporting the open source projects is definitely the way to go – don’t give up on people that easy !
“The worst blunder being wasting so many lives to liberate France.”
i agree on this one – you should help Poland during our uprising in Warsaw (200 thousand civilians killed) instead of helping them out only to have Chirac saying things i would never expect to come out of politics mouth ; and their (politics) hipocrisy about Iraq ; they would like to rule world without making risk that USA are willing to and without even powerfull enough army – pathetic
and as to differencies about war in Iraq – Europe has different experiences – WW II had much more impact on us than on US (6 out of 36 mln people in Poland were killed, total destruction of Warsaw and many other cities) ; and one more thing about American participation in WW II – it wasn’t until Pearl Hurbour – was it ? and we have to thank You and mr prime minister of GB – winnie Churchill for Yalta and agreement on soviet occupation of our country for the next 35 years (it was not so bright president of yours – Roosvelt) ; George Kennan had sth to say about this (he died in march)
on Korea you are right – people hardly remember that, nonetheless – it was very important ; the same Yugoslavia (different scale)
But, not being the first, I would like to say something about WWII ans the liberation of France. Since I’m French, I know my opinion will be automatically dismissed by some as the opinion of an ingrateful American hater, an arrogant French or whatever, but there we go.
Absolutely no country participated in that war to liberate France. Undoubtedly some individuals did it for that reason, and wanted it most than anything else, and most of these individuals were French, which is normal, and anyway the best way to have soldiers do what you want is to give them a noble goal, and that was a noble goal. But in reality, the Allied were at war with Germany, or better said the Axe (or is it Axis ?),and the goal was to totally defeat Germany to end the war. Hence, the necessity to invade Germany and have it surrender.
Now, you have the Russians coming from the east (and you want to beat them in the race. You must beat them). You need to open a front in the south, and one in the west. With your troops in UK, what choices have you ? The ennemy is in front of you. Where will you land your troops ? In Spain, a “neutral” country far south from the front ? In Belgium ? In the Netherlands ? The only choice was France, and was never debated (even the Germans knew that, and that’s why they fortificated the french coast more than any other). Not only was there a geographical advantage, but a strategic also, since there was (even if some Americans contest its existence, or its role, and yes, I know, there were more “résistants” after the liberation than before;-)) a structured “Résistance”. What was debated was “where in France ?”, and how to surprise the ennemy. Anyway, France would have been liberated, once Germany defeated, by all means.
Now, don’t get me wrong. I am not saying that France should not be grateful to the USA. In fact, France is grateful. To the USA, to Canada, to the UK, to Australia, New-Zealand, to the South-Africans, the Poles, Norwegians, and all those who participated in the liberation. The Americans, who tend to forget they didn’t single-handedly win that war (and that they didn’t fly to help the French or the English) would like to see a more evident gratitude (does that word exist ?). They have liberated France (with all the others mentionned above), but don’t like it one bit when France show some independence.Their stance seems to be : “we have saved your butt, now we own your butt”. They would have wanted France to blindly follow them, considering any dissent as unfriendly, traitorous. So, they ignored that France was helping (without discussion) them in Afghanistan, or dismissed that help as weak, useless, unimportant, and some declared that France was an ennemy, as if a friend, an independent friend, telling you “you’re going right in the wall and I won’t go with you” is an ennemy (I’m not discussing who is right or wrong).
Americans, I wish you the best. Iraqis, I wish you the best. World, I wish you the best.
“ts actually a little scary, america believes they were the main guys in WW2, even though they only showed up about half way through, and made blunder after blunder.
I am a canadian, and when I have travelled in europe, I have gotten nothing but respect. I never would have expected that, but people remember that while the russians were almost as bad as the nazis when they liberated a city, and the americans “liberating” a city usually left it demolished, the canadians actually managed to help the civilians, and went out of their way to not leave a trail of leveled cities in their wake.
By contrast, every american film, game, or book will portray them as the heros of WW2, with the brits kinda along for the ride, and as little mention of russia as humanly possible. They walk through europe like they own the place, and are astonished when they are met with anger. “What, how can these people hate us, we freed them from the nazis!”.”
Yes, the Candians really kicked ass at Dunkirk… Oh wait that’s your greatest loss.
Ah, the Candians really trounced the Japanese… Oh wait, that was America. Wow, those Canadians really put up a hell of a fight against the Italians in 1943, oh wait, that was the U.S. again.
And for the absolute idiot who believes that “No Country participated in the liberation of France:” What exactly do you believe happened on June 6th 1944? Did you prefer the Vichy regieme? What was Operation Cobra for? How exactly did those Frenchmen defeat the Tiger and Panther tanks with no tanks of their own? And you call the US arrogant?
Oh poor thing. Don’t you read ? I never wrote that no country participated in the liberation of France, I said that no country participated in that war to liberate France. That’s very different. But since you seem to have understanding problems, let me say it (once again) differently : the goal wasn’t to liberate France, it was to defeat Germany. France would have been liberated anyway, once Germany defeated. You should read my post again, and use some of your brain. That’s my last word.
” and as little mention of russia as humanly possible”
Russia started that war on the same side as Germany.
They were not – EVER – the “good guys” in WWII.
“But america has violated international law by this illegal war”
What “international law” would that be? Do you even know what “international law” is?
“By all rights, the UN should have declaired war on america.”
Considering the US is a Security Council member, hosts the UN, and provides most of the support for it, just how would THAT work?
“Thank god they didnt, but it came damn close.”
No, it didn’t. The world wasn’t going to bring about its downfall to defend a murderous dictator who has violated ceasefire agreements and teh people in the France and Germany profiting off of him.
“apologize to the global community you snubbed”
Let me guess… We should apologize to France and Germany from stopping their profitable arrangement with Iraq….
I am continually suprised at how blindingly ignorant some people are….
With attitudes like this no wonder America is losing its competitive edge. You people have forgotten what made your country great. People. You have losted your compassion for others. The world is changing and without a base of people who are willing to world for low wages you will no long be able to compete. If you think you will be able to maintain your position in the world much longer without putting to use the people who are already in your country I really feel sorry for you. People are already getting turned off from going to your country. Your country was built on the backs of emigrants. Wake up people.
“With attitudes like this no wonder America is losing its competitive edge.”
So, we should reward people who violate our laws and commit fraud. We should give them free medical care, drivers licenses, welfare benefits and should allow ANYONE who wants – regardless of who they are and what their intentions are – to enter our country without even informing us of that…. In short, you want us to cease being a sovereign nation. Are you a member of the Council of La Raza? Support of Aztlan?
What’s interesting is just how seriously countries like Mexico demand we open our borders completely, yet keep their’s closed….
” Your country was built on the backs of emigrants. ”
LEGAL ones are welcome. ILLEGAL ones are not.
I’m an atheist and I wouldn’t consider myself patriotic. I typically think of the Federal government as corrupt, inept, and filled with idiots. A number of those inept, corrupt, idiots are also quite happy that people can enter the country illegally–it saves them money on nannies and gardeners, and helps them get contributions from Walmart, farms in California, and other such businesses. (Would anyone be surprised if some of their interest was from the illegal drug trade?)
I do however believe that the U.S. can and does have the power to legislate its borders and decide who can immigrate into them, and that people that undermine that legislation will be exploited and denied respect by the citizenry.
People from the U.S. donate to foreign and domestic charities. The U.S. absorbs a lot of legal immigrants, and issues many student visas so that foreign students can learn in U.S. universities. A lot of open source contributors are from the U.S., and U.S. businesses employ a lot of prominent open source developers. A number of people in the U.S. study Chemistry and Biology so that they can do research to help everyone have enough to eat, have treatments for diseases, and otherwise increase the standard of living.
But people seem to feel entitled to everything. No matter how compassionate people from the U.S. are, it’s not sufficient. Companies patent those discoveries and sell them, the U.S. charity per capita isn’t high enough, we don’t want people entering our country illegally because we’re evil racists.
All countries are the result of immigrants. And pretty much all of them regulate who can immigrate to them, what immigrants can have and do, and no shortage of them are much less open than the U.S.
If you were to fine all companies or persons who hire illegal aliens in the USA 1 million dollars for each one, there would be zero problems with people crossing the border.
You wouldn’t need a border patrol, if that money was instead spent on inspectors checking to see who was legal in Walmart or Sears.
Legal immigrants are more than welcome. Illegal sponges are not.
> France would have been liberated anyway, once Germany
> defeated.
You REALLY should say thank you to Americans, Canadians, Poles etc. that THEY (not Russians) liberated France.
You propably are right France wasn’t main goal, but for you it was important who defeated Germany.
And you were really lucky, we in Poland weren’t.
Btw did you know that in US are Polish jokes and in Poland are French jokes ?
Sample:
Question: What it is? One million men with their hands over their heads?
Answer: French army.
Keep warm.
Perfectly right.
Yalta was a mess. True, Poland wsn’t lucky. Poland has never been lucky. The Poles have some reasons to be proud, for having survived, and for having developed a rich culture (btw, many French, especially in the north of the country, originated from Poland).
Wow ! The polish jokes about the French are not really different from the American jokes about the same. I suppose it has to do with WWII, and it doesn’t do justice to the 80,000 french deaths (and the 40,000 german deaths) in the six weeks before Hitler’s troops entered Paris. But why would a joke do justice to History ?
Wow ! The polish jokes about the French are not really different from the American jokes about the same. I suppose it has to do with WWII, and it doesn’t do justice to the 80,000 french deaths (and the 40,000 german deaths) in the six weeks before Hitler’s troops entered Paris. But why would a joke do justice to History ?
Well sure but compare this:
During WWII Poland lost 6 028 000 people it was 22,8% of all Poles and 38% of our property.
Until WWII on each 1000 citizens died 220, compare this to Russia – 116, FRANCE – 15 (!) and USA – 2,9…..
So, I think that it is a kind of miracle that Poland is economically where it is now.
But it is absolutely off topic and we should end this discussion
Although when I hear selfish and arrogant people from US so proud about their economy I always think “kill 22% US citizens, destroy 40% of their property, give them 50 years of communism and then we could talk about economy again” 😉
I’ll be donating my money here instead:
http://www.minutemanproject.com/