“Over the past few years, Linux has been hitting Windows hard in different places and, blow by blow, won points against the OS behemoth. Good application software is an important selling point for any operating system, and good development tools are crucial to those writing application software. The leading desktop operating system, Microsoft Windows, has a strong integrated development environment (IDE) in Visual Studio .Net, while the upstart Linux platform’s KDE environment has KDevelop. Let’s pitch them against each other and see which ends up the last IDE standing.” Read more here.
KDevelop vs. Microsoft Visual Studio .Net
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
How can you spect an objetive article when the reviewer use the word “Koncluding”?
It is a lame way to make publicity.
That gets 2nd place after that article who claimed that installing software under Linux is easiest than in Windows. But I’m biased, since I decided this was a joke when I read author comparing VS.NET 6 CDs package against KDevelop 13MB one (and, of course, hinting that other 3887MBs of stuff was just unuseful CD fillers…)…
I keep hearing about Linux (and other OSS) taking MS market share. I’ve yet to see any of it (except in niche markets).
Typical “objective viewpoint” of the linux crowd.
(And I thought real coders use emacs, by the way…)
In an enterprise environment, you simply cannot compare Visual Studio to KDevelop. VS redifines the phrase rapid development with features like an easy to use GUI tools and code completion, not to mention the .NET environment.
The section about deployment was poorly researched as well as Visual Studio provides a project type that creates and application installer. Then everytime you build your project, an installer is created too.
This comparison is a joke.
That’s just terrible. The author just came to the conclusion that a piece of free software is better than its MS counterpart.
Let’s all jump around, make stupid and insulting comments, call the author names, while not providing any argument whatsoever and cry together over this great injustice that has been done.
I have nothing against Kdevelop. I do use it quite often. However, this review was rather… poor, to say the least.
Let’s all jump around, make stupid and insulting comments, call the author names, while not providing any argument whatsoever and cry together over this great injustice that has been done.
Nobody did that.
There are OSS projects that leave MS offerings in the dust, Apache to name one.
However, a typical “viewpoint” of the linux crowd is, that ALL MS products suck like hell. Which is untrue. Would they be market leaders then?
Even KDevelop users agree that this “comparison” is nosense. Because it contains ridiculous “facts”.
Why would one listen about deployment, installers and stuff, when he do not need that?
And in linux, you do really not need that stuff.
Second, KDevelop, i beleive, have completion. Can’t say anything about ‘GUI tools’ since do not understand what do you want to say by that.
And you all comletely miss KDevelop have one thing that kicks shit of opposite in VS.Net: Qt.
P.S. But, as always, Windows users need just ‘megabytes, megaixels, megafeatures’, no matter how rarely you use all of them.
Whatever gave you the silly idea that OSNews had high quality standards in reference to anything it posts for accuracy and validity? Didn’t we just recently see a hit-frenzy discussion for something that doesn’t even involve computers in any way, shape, or form, other than it was discussing some sob story originally published in Wired?
OSNews is more along the level of the tabloid “The Enquirer” here in the US
Sometimes there are good things, although almost always with a slant, and more often than not, things are of dubious quality 
Soon as I opened the webpage and saw that the article was on newsforge I pretty much knew they were going to say KDevelop was the better platform. Lets see, a comparison of a proprietary app and an open source app on an open source website. We all knew there was going to be a bias. But I still read it in high hopes that it wouldn’t be biased. I was wrong.
“Nobody did that.”
Excuse me, but please point out one sane argument in the above posts I reffered to, there’s none.
“However, a typical “viewpoint” of the linux crowd is, that ALL MS products suck like hell. Which is untrue.”
I agree. Great mice.
“Would they be market leaders then?”
Yep, they would. First off all, looking at any industry you’d probably soon find out that it’s not always the best product that is the market leader. Or would you turn down a Mercedes, BMW or Rolls Royce because GM is the market leader?
Second, as there are many factors that decide upon the success of a product and brand, claiming that being a market leader shows that the quality of the product is great is simply ridiculous. Actually, followin MS’ story is a very good reminder of that.
In an enterprise environment, you simply cannot compare Visual Studio to KDevelop. VS redifines the phrase rapid development with features like an easy to use GUI tools and code completion, not to mention the .NET environment.
Have you ever used KDevelop or VS? I use visual studio every day, all day at work. It is not all that great. It does not redefine RAD or anything. It’s a decent tool but certainly not the best IDE I’ve used. Here are some of the major issues I run into on a day to day basis:
1. The GUI designer is sub par to QT Designer. It’s not as simple as it could be, although part of this is the fault of MFC. Occasional hangs when adding event handlers for GUI elements.
2. It sometimes randomly gets confused about its own resource files and refuses to open them. (This actually required a complete reinstall of VS)
3. Code completion is shoddy and inconsistant. It will tell you functions and variables are accessible even though they are not. It is very fragile, and will not show up at all sometimes, even though the code compiles cleanly.
I’m not saying KDevelop is better, I find the interface quite cluttered at 1024×768, and it has some weird bugs, but VS.NET is certainly not exceptionally good either.
Eclipse is my favourite so far. Of course, only for Java, which makes it not an option for most of my work.
It IS superior to MFC. It IS superior to System.Windows.Forms.
Tell me, to what it is NOT superior?
And pricing is not the case, seems noone said article is alied to development of commercial software.
As long as you develop on and for KDE, this is OK.
And, btw, there is a second thing where it’s superior: KDE.
KDE APIs are so higher level and better, that they can be barely compared.
While in VS.Net you can get much more power messing hardly with COM objects from MS/third party, KDE gives you an immensive power out-of-box.
To summarise my position: KDevelop is a strong app and meets all user’s needs as or better than VS.Net in a lot of cases.
There are a lot of cases where it can’t meet user’s needs, but OSS projects rarely target peace on all earth.
I see a lot of comments about how kdevelop doesn’t match up to vs.net but there are simply no reasons given why it doesn’t. So I feel bound to ask:
What do you think is missing from KDevelop?(besides a good name:))
I am not trying to start a flamewar(after all I haven’t used neither of them for long), I am just wondering.
To me they seem similar:
They both have code completion
They both have GUI designers
They both have visual debuggers
They both integrate with some SCMs.
Excuse me, but please point out one sane argument in the above posts I reffered to, there’s none.
True, there is no detailed discussion.
But no one was whining or the like.
They just pointed out the lack of sane arguments in the article, and the obvious bias of an OSS website.
Yep, they would. First off all, looking at any industry you’d probably soon find out that it’s not always the best product that is the market leader. Or would you turn down a Mercedes, BMW or Rolls Royce because GM is the market leader?
In the long run it would be very difficult for any company to sustain a leading position if their own products were absolutely inferior.
MS has leading positions not only in the OS and office markets, but in several other as well.
Their products might not be A1 quality in every aspect, but claiming they are all F class would be far off reality…
Second, as there are many factors that decide upon the success of a product and brand, claiming that being a market leader shows that the quality of the product is great is simply ridiculous. Actually, followin MS’ story is a very good reminder of that.
IMHO, I disagree, see above.
Dismissing an article because of the inherent bias is pretty weak. Of course it’s biased, you will never find an article that is not biased. (And if you do, it will be worthless because the author will have no real knowledge of the subject matter).
Instead of laughing, point out specifically what you think KDevelop is lacking compared to Visual Studio.
Using the recent beta of VS, I was pleased to find that it could use emacs keybindings…. somewhat ironic that Kdevelop doesn’t have that yet? (unless I’ve missed it in recent versions?)
Don’t get me wrong – on Linux I use Kdevelop for C++ and Emacs for C – but this just highlights the lengths MS are going to to ensure they cater to everyone.
let’s not carried away. KDevelop has lots of rough edges. It’s parser is nowhere near as good as Visual Studio and it has support for many languages, but doesn’t do any of them that good.
By the way, what’s this VS2004 that the reviewer refers to?
Yeah kdevelop rocks. On my gentoo machine the damn thing cant even compile code that it itself generates. Gives me a realy useful explenation of the error too: “exited with status 1”.
P.S. But, as always, Windows users need just ‘megabytes, megaixels, megafeatures’, no matter how rarely you use all of them.
To be fair, many OSS users would only use open products, no matter how shitty they are. Few people are truly using the right tool for the right job.
Dismissing an article because of the inherent bias is pretty weak. Of course it’s biased, you will never find an article that is not biased.
It wouldn’t be that bad if the article had some content… To me, it’s pretty much an editorial, giving his opinion on stuff he prefer. It doesn’t have any real depth. I know the author pretends that he didn’t made a real look, but his argument doesn’t justify his conclusion. And this is coming from somebody using Kdevelop (along with some vim here and there)…
Go to the Settings menu, select Configure Kdevelop and change the Compiler Output to “Short” or “Full”.
Still, I bet you have an issue with libtoolize. Open a Konsole, go in your project directory and type libtoolize –copy –force. In my experience, this is specific to Gentoo since I didn’t had this problem with Debian or Kubuntu.
It wouldn’t be that bad if the article had some content…
If only your opinion about the article had some content…
Facts anyone?
To be fair, many OSS users would only use open products, no matter how shitty they are. Few people are truly using the right tool for the right job.
Well, on windows you will have to use some proprietary app, and pray it will suit your needs.
On linux you will same have to use some OSS app, and pray it would not be too shitty.
As long as your platform defines tools you can use, taking right tool would be somewhat not very easy.
I wonder, is there a 2004 version of VS.NET ?
as i can tell, there is only 2002/2003 and 2005 coming on the way!
KDevelop will have its real chance with Qt/KDE 4. It will then be available for windows as well. But this is still one to one and a half years away.
When kdevelop first came it, it was wonderful. It was rapidly evolving, had a great focus, and honored the k.i.s.s. principle. Now I think it has lost some of its focus and is succumbing to “featuritus”. But it’s still a good IDE.
As for comparing it to Visual Studio, that’s a stretch. Once you get past the superficial first appearances, they’re almost apples and oranges. VS *IS* the whole ball of wax. It’s the IDE, dialog editor, compiler, debugger, SDK and documentation all in one system. It’s a complete development system in one package. KDevelop, on the other hand, is just an IDE. Everything else (with a couple of minor exceptions) is provided by third parties.
Your average KDevelop user could simply use kate, designer and a couple of konsoles, to perform the equivalent work. KDevelop is merely a convenience. But it very difficult to abandon Visual Studio under Windows. You either have to replace it with a competor’s product (Borland), or give yourself a quasi-unix environment with Cygwin or MKS. When your compiler *IS* Visual Studio, when your debugger *IS* Visual Studio, when your programmer’s editor *IS* Visual Studio, you don’t tend to have a lot of flexibility in choosing something other than Visual Studio.
p.s. There’s no comparison between Qt and MFC. The Qt API is miles ahead of MFC. Designer makes the VS dialog editor look like a elementary school term project, and Trolltech’s quality documentation makes Microsoft’s voluminous MSDN library look like a hack rush job by a subcontractor. Trying to write an MFC application without the ClassWizard(tm) is a nightmare of obtuse and unreadable macros. In a recent code review at work, ten out of fifteen coding errors found in one utility were discovered to have been part of Visual Studio’s appwizard/classwizard generated code.
>1. The GUI designer is sub par to QT Designer. It’s not as >simple as it could be, although part of this is the fault of >MFC. Occasional hangs when adding event handlers for GUI >elements.
Not sure about that, the GUI event handling in the latest qt designer is not intuitive at all, the VS NET is much much easier in this regard, click and write code, what could be simpler. By the way, Delphi of course and VB have both had better (particularly Delphi) IDEs for GUI development that QT designer or VS NET.
>2. It sometimes randomly gets confused about its own >resource files and refuses to open them. (This actually >required a complete reinstall of VS)
I believe this is bug, I’ve found it happen when I put code above the main class, really bad.
, you need to take into account they have different targets:
OSS app would be likely either jack of all trades, master of none, or it would master some unusual things that not every mortal would ever understand.
While they both rarely try to conquer the whole world.
Policy there is: Use first-type app until it does all you want, or use second-type app for deep things first one can’t do.
Proprietary apps are different, they are either monsters like VS.Net, or niche apps that do everything that monster can do in one specific area, plus some more in that area.
Policy is: Use monster app. Use niche app if told to.
So example one:
In linux, for web development you would need quanta or eclipse (php/java). For GUI apps you would need KDevelop+Qt Designer. For server apps, you would need master-grade text editor like vim or emacs.
In windows, you would need VS.Net. For GUI, you would need VS.Net. For server apps, you would need VS.Net. For web apps, you would need guess what? VS.Net.
So complaining that your monster can to things that jack of all trades can not, and when complaining master app can not do all that common work monster can, is pretty stupid. Just combine them.
Secind example:
Each linux distro comes with gdb and strace.
SoftICE can be ages or light years ahead of strace and gdb, but it costs money, you have to install and master it. And pay money.
strace and gdb have very low (from developer’s sight) entry barrier, so i can handle 80% software problems in linux, while i never could diagnoze even one in windows.
No. It’s hard to take the author seriously when he’s making up product versions.
This is like comparing GIMP with Photoshop. GIMP is good enough for reguler users. But for professional it just dont cut the cake. KDevelop is good enough for all of us. But to compare it with V.S. is just silly.
By the way, what’s this VS2004 that the reviewer refers to?
Possibly a beta version of VS.Net 2005, or at a guess, a typo? It’s a fairly minor point.
>On Visual Studio’s side, the functionality for layout and >spacing are inferior to QTDesigners. While guides to snap >elements to can be dragged from the window edges into the >dialog, there is no automatic or semi-automatic spacing >between elements, so that resizing a dialog during the >design phase can be very cumbersome. No grouping of >elements is possible, and the use of some functionality, >such as correctly connecting groups of radio buttons, is >opaque at best. The same goes for making fully functional, >resizeable dialogs on the code side — the user interface >frameworks are to blame.
The above is total BS. His remarks suggest to me that the author has not written many GUI apps using VS NET. VSNET uses the same approach as Delphi for mamaging controls on a form. In my experience it is far far easier to use the Dephi/VS approach to produce GOOD looking interfaces campared to the approach taken by other designers, including QT. The use of anchors, alignments and panels (grouping!) makes the generation of user interfaces much easier especially for complex forms. As for resizing, it’s automatic, you rarely have to write any code for resizing except perhaps in very rare cases where the developer would like to hand craft some specical effect.
GCC should be doing all the parsing for C/C++/Java, etc…but because of politics it can’t. So KDevelop has to reinvent the wheel, developing parsers for a C/C++/Java, etc…
Kdevelop does have a pretty cool automake importer. I imported all of cvs kdelibs, hit the build button and it did everything from there.
Gnome could learn a lot from Kdevelop because it shows the power of DCOP and Kparts.
First off, I didn’t read this…but given the title of the article, here’s my input.
There is no comparison. When pitting a half-assed piece of software against a product as polished as MS VS.NET you’ve got to be prepared for some flaming.
First let me say that 1) I really like KDE and I’m an avid Gentoo Linux user and 2) I’m also a fan of MS development tools/platforms and make a living with them…and 3) I *love* wxWidgets and have used it to build applications, it’s great.
I only needed a week or so attempting to use KDevelop to write C++ to know that it’s lacking…big time. When posting to the kdevelop forums on complaints about not being able to create dynamic libraries in the automake config menu and *several* other buggy “features” in KDevelop…I would always receive a *pathetic*, lame response that usually went something like this:
“KDevelop is free software and if you don’t like something about it, fix it yourself or add what you want.”
Herein lies a fundamental attitude problem with “free software” ideologues. It’s also indicative of a group of people who do not understand the concept of the division of labor. Not everyone can do everything all of the time. With the *glorous* exception of Gentoo and a few of my other favorite open source projects…I’ve come across this attitude more than once…one where the developers aren’t concerned with end-users only with what they want.
Rightfully so (before someone goes on a spastic flaming rant for my comments.) If you code for free, no one should expect you to code what *they* want into your project…unless of course your goal is to facilitate the wide-spread use and acceptance of your product.
Here is one area where commercial, proprietary software has been (and will continue to be) successful. The market dictates what people want and these vendors are willing to provide it, for a fee.
MS Visual Studio .NET and the .NET platform is absolutely fantastic. It’s what an IDE should be…useful, stable, easy to use, and a boost to productivity (i.e. gives users the ability to sit down and write code not fart around w/ a buggy, poorly documented environment a la KDevelop.)
Santa, here’s my list for this x-mas:
1. MS .NET framework running natively on Linux (no sources necessary.)
2. Visual Studio .NET native on Linux.
3. EASY to install/configure/use Apache mod for asp.net (I don’t even want to hear about Mono…ugh)
Thanks Santa!
Not like yours is more insightful, now isn’t it?
The author is pretty vague on everything. It doesn’t even mention the quality of the debugging tools, which is one of the most important aspect of a good IDE, if not the most. Furthermore, it doesn’t even bother to explain that 3.6GB of additional stuff coming with VS.NET. Oh, but we have two crappy screenshots of each IDE (not even in the default configuration)…
Still not persuaded? Not my problem.
I think one of the major problems in the unix world is that unix guys just don’t like IDE’s.. i’m not trying to troll her as i am a linux guy that happens to like Kdevelop but VS is not only more mature but just plain better as an IDE.
Unix people tend to discuss the merits of the compiler, notably gcc and then argue nonsensibly over wether to use vi or emacs as a devel environment(vi for me by the way)
i guess my prefs for an IDE stem from the fact that i started out with a copy of Borland C++ profesionall. v4.0 to be exact, which by the way kicked VS’s ass for quite some time. I havent been back to the windows world since about win98, but damn i still miss a good IDE
Ok I dont wanna throw in a log into the flamewar here, but I will say that article is perhaps one of the most biased articles I have ever read. I am an avid user of both Windows and Linux (Slackware-current) and develop on a multitude of platforms for work, school, and free time activities (I develop web apps using PHP and ASP.NET at work and contribute to open source apps in free time).
I will have to say that both are great products for their respective uses. VS .NET has no equal for developing windows apps and is fairly extensible for 3rd parties and KDevelop has no equal in developing for KDE/Qt apps. Both have their quirks and there are definite advantages of using one over the other besides the OS difference. But to compare them as was done and especially in such a biased view is just outright stupid. Not to mention the author sounds like all he did was hack out a few small apps in both and said oh VS .NET sucks and KDevelop rules. They obviously did not do their research into either IDE.
I would be very interested to see someone write a very in depth and deep comparison of the two IDEs and do a real comparison of the features between the two, but an extremely biased one like this is about as ugly and horrendous as me singing in the shower.
As a project memeber of KDevelop, I am slightly amused by the article. Yes, it’s not too well researched. And that dozens of fully paid developers create more polished products is no surprise. That someone is bold enough to try a comparison and let KDevelop win is a novelty for me, though
There is a lot of good code in KDevelop and a lot of people have put hard work into it. Take a look at the C++ parser, I don’t think you can find a better one licensed as LGPL.
You can either help out and make KDevelop better or pay $$$ for a commercial product. Note that “choosing KDevelop and complaining about it” does not appear on the list
Take a look at the C++ parser, I don’t think you can find a better one licensed as LGPL.
Maybe because is the only one licensed LGPL.
That KDevelop doesn’t use gcc’s parser isn’t because of politics. Grab a book about incremental code parsing and you’ll know
(if you type “a->”, you want code completion for “a” while you’re typing. Note that at this very moment, your code wouldn’t compile but KDevelop still has to figure out which scope etc. you’re in)
Take a look at KDevelop’s interfaces. You can integrate wx designer or glade, just no one has done it yet. KDevelop can integrate any texteditor whatsoever (vim, kate, nedit, you name it). Try that with VS
So no complaints that KDevelop locks you out, please…
>Maybe because is the only one licensed LGPL.
okay, s/LGPL/any free software license/
Visual Studio uses a modifiied form of Microsoft’s parsers to do all it’s parsing. And it is about politics because Stallman doesn’t want parts of GCC used by proprietary companies. Once again, Stallman represses progess.
Visual Studio set’s the bar for IDEs. Perhaps Eclipse and Borland IDE’s can compare, but VS is probably the easiest and best all-around IDE.
However, the F/OSS Linux overall development tools kick MS equivelent’s butts.
QT and GTK+ are both vastly superior to MFC/Win32 API. I’ve worked with all three, and QT and GTK+ are eons ahead of MFC/Win32 API in terms of fewer bugs, elegant design, efficiency, and ease of use.
gcc/g++ better than VC++ compiler – gcc/g++ more standards compliant, less buggy, and cross platform
QTDesigner and Glade much easier, less buggy, and more productive than VC++ dialogs.
For simple code editing, Kate and Gedit are tough to beat. VS code editing can be overkill.
All that said, I find KDevelop to be powerful, but an overbloated mess. I have yet to be productive with KDevelop after 3 years of toying with it. I greatly prefer just using Kate and QTDesigner (in KDE) or Gedit and Glade (in Gnome). Actually, with using these, I’ve found them to be as easy and productive as Visual Basic, the king of easy RAD tools.
In short, great IDEs like Visual Studio, while powerful and productive, can be quite overrated. One can just as easily be productive with the simple tools found in Linux/Unix. And I’m saying this as someone who was first a Windows and Visual Basic user, then later discovered Linux and all of it’s programming tools.
harryF is 100% correct: you can’t use a full-blown C++ parser from a compiler interactively without a lot of trouble, due to scoping issues needing to be resolved in real-time. To do code completion (properly!) requires a full symbol tree of all scopes accessible at the time and place the user is typing, and handling input of code that’s not fully typed in requires a lot of interesting error handling to not snarl things. Not only do you need a C++ parser, you also need a preprocessor to handle all the conditional #includes and other things. This requires a view of everything visible from within that current translation unit, including the context of where things are defined, to have accurate code completion that makes sense. What it does not require is a full-fledged C++ compiler that verifies that everything has semantic sense and ensuring it would actually fully compile and link.
For performance reasons, trying to reuse gcc would likely be a nightmare, as the code for the parser is not likely readily separated and reused, due to all the other lower-level dependencies.
Compiling colorations are nice for one reason: If you look really hard while it compiles your files you can pick out warnings that you would often otherwise miss. But, a little experience tells you to look for warnings anyway and so you do.
Maybe I missed it, but I saw nothing about debuggers. Frankly, I don’t like gui debuggers (I love gdb and valgrind), but they are an integral part of an Integrated Development Environment: Serious C/C++ development *needs* a debugger to be avoid as much stress as possible.
Also, yea it’s just generally shallow. I’ve used VC++6, and I doubt the .net has changed all that much. I remember that the gui was confusing, but I also tend to get lost in graphical interfaces that I’m not accustomed to.
Also, he probably should mention that gcc is vastly friendlier than vc++ is … There are a few things it will catch in the compile stage that vc++ will leave to the linker (linkers give scary errors, only people who know what a linker is seem to understand them). For example, if you try to compile and link this:
int Main(void) { return 0; }
On gcc, in my rememberance, it comes up with a compile error (assumging you compile with link: gcc -o file.bin file.c). In VC++ I’ve heard complaints of some really wierd errors.. This doesn’t matter to serious developers, but it does to introductory CS students! And every serious developer starts somewhere
. Linux is a great place for an intro dev, simply because there is no cash investment into it.
I agree with the guy above: I love gtk..
..but i find intellij idea beats both hands down.
I use anjuta for C development. Mostly because I like it’s completion, and I refuse to install kdelibs.
For performance reasons, trying to reuse gcc would likely be a nightmare, as the code for the parser is not likely readily separated and reused, due to all the other lower-level dependencies
That’s my whole point. The GCC team (on insistence from Stallman) hasn’t properly separated out the parser code for re-use.
Even assuming that you’re right (I was never a big fan of MFC), the point is you should compare to VS.NET which is here to develop using Windows.Forms and not MFC.
However, you should also notice that most comments are not against KDevelop (which has its merits), but against author who completely missed the point. IMO, you simply cannot compare VS.NET to KDevelop because they’re simply different products.
Once you buy VS.NET, you can simply develop ANYTHING in Windows world, including stand-alone apps, Web applications, Mobile applications and more.
I complained about the very fact you can even start the comparison.
yargh! my first post mainly because other articles that I actually read the discussion goes beyond my knowledge and I am for sure to get flamed for every word I type eh heh.
I don’t even use either programs. I was interested in the article because of that, had no idea what either really did so I read it…and.. It didn’t make to much sense !!
All I got out of it was that the the MS one is more clunky while the KDE one has more “flexibility, and usefull features”.
Pfft…that is BS to me because I thought the opposite of just the KDE enviroment, I recently got into Linux and I am now using Ubuntu. Out of all the OS’s I tried I liked the Gnome enviroment over the KDE one.
Reading the reply’s here I also discover a lot more goes into the comparison than said in the article, and there are longer standing and better developed ones for linux, why choose KDevelop to compare ?!
I guess it is just what you are used to though, I would take the familiar MS software over others most of time. But one thing I do know is that you can’t just make your decision by “Scratching the surface” like the author said ! >_<.
There is no comparison. When pitting a half-assed piece of software against a product as polished as MS VS.NET you’ve got to be prepared for some flaming.
When making unsubstantiated, venomous claims, do not expect to be taken seriously. There is a difference between criticism and attack.
…and just when you thought you had a chance to compare KDevelop with Visual Studio .Net…along comes Visual Studio 2005 that has no equal and trumps anything currently on the market. Leo is dead-on. I can’t take such a comparison seriously either.
>>Excuse me, but please point out one sane argument in the above posts I reffered to, there’s none.
>True, there is no detailed discussion.
>But no one was whining or the like.
Go back and read again.
While the article was highly biased, so was the reaction to it — esp. early on.
I haven’t used either program much and I don’t know how accurate the article is, but given that even one of the developers for KDevelop says its flawed doesn’t give me much faith in its authenticity. However, I gotta give major props to the author for at least trying. FINALLY, somebody arguing on FUNCTIONALITY instead of religion – this is a great way to get the attention of Windows users like me. Now, what I’d like to see are articles that feature:
1. The Gnome/KDE file managers vs Directory Opus 8
2. Adobe Photoshop/PSP vs Gimp
3. Dreamweaver vs the best that open source has to offer
4. Outlook vs Evolution
5. Nero 6 Ultra vs K3b
These kinds of articles would be cool, me thinks
Better than the ‘M$ is evil’ bullshit that usually floods the airwaves.
Ok, to set some of the rummors straight. I am a Linux user, in fact, Linux and BSD are pretty much the only os’s I use, I do not like Windows… that is not to say I don’t like windows applications developed by MS or for MS windows. The problems are not the applications by any means, it is the unstable and in many if not most cases insecure qualities of the Windows Operating system. And besides, I like absolute control over my system and I can’t have that with windows.
I just hate the generalization….. we are not all anti MS, or or anti enterprise, I use MS Office for most all of my office productivity, and I use Adobe Photoshop for all of my photo editing and image manipulation (both running on linux though).
and oh yeah…. I dislike kdevelop…. but I dislike visual studio as well lol
Funny how no one here even mentioned Eclipse.
And for the record MS has had one of the most decent IDE’s to boot. We’re not comparing the MFC to QT or GTK – so all you people out there who are saying QT > MFC , sure granted that’s true but we’re talking about the IDE here – how a developer can create decent software (and colloborate with other developers too). Hands down MS Visual Studio wins in that arena. Give credit where it’s due people.
“1. The Gnome/KDE file managers vs Directory Opus 8
2. Adobe Photoshop/PSP vs Gimp
3. Dreamweaver vs the best that open source has to offer
4. Outlook vs Evolution
5. Nero 6 Ultra vs K3b”
heres another:
6. 3D Studio MAX vs Blender
The best IDE for development out there is called Borland J Builder
3. Dreamweaver vs the best that open source has to offer
That would be Quanta Plus. http://quanta.kdewebdev.org/
4. Outlook vs Evolution
Add Kontact in there too.
5. Nero 6 Ultra vs K3b”
K3B wins on simplicity and clarity. Nero 6 wins on DVD authoring and support for high end features of some burners.
heres another:
6. 3D Studio MAX vs Blender
I’d also add:
7. Amarok http://amarok.kde.org/ VS your favourite music player.
Amarok is one seriously killer app. Nothing compares to it in wicked features and managing your collection. I was a long time Winamp/XMMS fan because it was simple and just worked, but Amarok blew me away. Far more than an iTunes clone (I hate the iTunes interface anyway).
“The best IDE for development out there is called Borland J Builder”
Yeah! It’s great for C/C++…
Yeah! It’s great for C/C++…
I didn’t say it was for C++, but its equivalent is Borland C++ Builder X, it is the same but for C/C++. you can’t compare.
Oh, well if we’re not comparing C/C++ IDE’s then Delphi beats everything hands-down!
I have used (and continue use both) IDE’s and have even contributed patches to KDevelop The truth is that KDevelop really is a pretty awsome IDE. As far a comparing Qt and .Net, I have to agree with the author. Qt is simply amazing. The only place that .Net really scores higher than Qt is in multi-language application development. Otherwise I would (and almost anyone I know who is really familiar with both enviroments would) pick C++/Qt over C#/.Net anytime. Especially when you have to use a GUI designer… VS is noticably harder to use than Qt Designer (or KDE Designer.)
Comments like this:
>>. When pitting a half-assed piece of software against a product as
>>polished as MS VS.NET you’ve got to be prepared for some flaming.
are rediculous in the extreme and show nothing more than the ingorance of the individual who wrote it.
The biggest flaw I saw with the article is that it failed to cover debugging, which is agruable where most developers spend most of their time. VS.Nets debugging tools are AMAZING. GDB is noticable lacking in this area.
I think the article is more a testament to the author being amazed that such a powerful IDE for Linux existed. Linux developers who don’t touch KDE often have no idea how amazing some of these applications really are. I am guessing that the authors amazment leaked into the article just a bit.
>Especially when you have to use a GUI designer… VS is >noticably harder to use than Qt Designer (or KDE Designer.)
I thought I’d never read this statement, what can be simpler that double clicking on a control and adding code to it? I’ve tried designer (QT4) and can’t can make any sense of it. In order to deal with event handling with designer one has to go into a different editing mode!
“I thought I’d never read this statement, what can be simpler that double clicking on a control and adding code to it? I’ve tried designer (QT4) and can’t can make any sense of it. In order to deal with event handling with designer one has to go into a different editing mode!”
You haven’t tried Qt4. You’ve tried the beta and it’s still very much in a developmental phase. Give them a chance to get it out of the door! (admittedly, Designer in Qt4b2 doesn’t look too hot right now).
I’m working on my first KDE projekt and of cause I’m using kdevelop.
I think that the lack of guides/tutorials/docs for kdevelop is it’s biggest weekness.
The topics I need the most is:
* using the debugger
* using the GUI designer in an existing project.
I love Qt and KDEs-api. But me and IDE’s have never been friends, but I want to learn so I need good documents.
Also KDevelop’s codecompletion needs work, it’s good at using codecompletion for my own classes but it can’t do it for included classes, which is what I really need. I know this is difficult too do, but any Java IDE with respect for it self does this for Java’s API, so why not doing it for Qt and KDEs-api?
For now I manage on the easy doc access thats build-in KDevelop.
The documentation I’m refering too are of cause for (about) kdevelop. I’ve about all the documentation I need for Qt and kdeapi.
what can be simpler that double clicking on a control and adding code to it?
In VS you click on a control and start adding code to it. One problem though, controls don’t exist in isolation. At least out in the real world they don’t. Under Qt’s signal/slot paradigm, you get to connect controls (widgets) together. If you haven’t been trained since infancy in event handling and callback juggling, it’s actually more intuitive.
While I give respect to all active Open Source projects, you should Make No Mistake About It…Visual Studio .Net is hands down much better than KDevelop. You can’t even compare the two.
I’ll easily admit that Visual Studio .Net has bugs and can become quirky with a project, but it is far easier to work with than KDevelop. The GUI designer is much more tightly integrated and it’s much more intuitive. The compiler handles flags so much easier too…In fact, it’s so easy it’s got a “Don’t worry about it. I got it covered” attitude. With KDevelop you gotta worry about that yourself. Google around to get the right flag. Go through project settings and change it. It’s just a pain in the butt.
Creating an installer is much better too. The installer that results has a full graphical interface which allows for user interaction and complex actions like creating databases and setting up websites.
This review is so incredibly biased that I don’t think I could ever read a review from this author again and take it seriously. It was nothing but a joke!
Rather light on the details – seems more like a one-man-band comparing his favourite development platform to the “arch enemy from Satans cave”.
Sure, kdevelop is nice if you are a small developer, but in a larger setting, those cds may seem like fillers, but there is some value in what Microsoft provides. I’m sure there are many here who can vouch for the added features that VS.NET has over Kdevelop.
Not to say that Kdevelop is bad, but lets be relistic about its limitations.
VS is mainly a .NET developer tool. And the .NET main language is not the C++, but the C#. You can create C++ application with VS, but IMHO the most of VS.NET applications are written in Visual Basic and C#. Yes, the Qt is comparable to MFC. But IMHO the QT is not comparable to the whole .NET framework. If you want to create a multiplatform C++ application with Qt, the KDevelop is the best solution. If you want to create a multiplatform C++ application without Qt (because the Qt’s price is relative high if you want to develop small but commercial application, or if you doesn’t like Qt) IMHO the best tool the wx-DevCpp (wxdsgn.sourceforge.net). If you want to create business applicatios (multi-tier, good RDBMS support, web and desktop user interface, etc) the best soulution is the M$ VS.
That has to be one of the worst reviews I have ever read on Newsforge. Talk about amateurish journalism.
I can’t believe this, you did again OSNews. Another very poor article written by guy who is Linux fanatic. It took 2 lines to find it out that guy have no sense of judgement in this case.
Kdevelop isn’t even best programming tool for Linux. Program has so many bugs and have bugs that can crash whole program. Makefile autogeneration doesn’t work all time, lack enough information in compiling errors, QtDesigner crashing, debugging and UI problems. Kdevelop is one of those rare Linux software that freezed whole system long time. I don’t even want to talk about things you can add to VS.Net to make even better tool.
It’s joke to compare these two since better comparision would Eclipse that has more same features as VS.Net than Kdevelop.
How can you spect an objetive article when the reviewer use the word “Koncluding”?
It is a lame way to make publicity.
That’s basically all this article is.
KDevelop may be better (in this guys opinion), but a rally grade steering wheel in a Reliant Robin isn’t going to attract anyone.
Make a decent OS, then worry about the developer tools.
I don’t even want to talk about things you can add to VS.Net to make even better tool..
Excellent move – why spoil a good rant with some actual insightful comments?
I’m a developer for Linux (Delphi – Kylix) and Windows (VS C#). Although Visual Studio has a few downsides I find it a great tool and one of the best (non-java) programming IDE’s.
This isn’t really an objective review. Lame publicity and a typical anti-MS reviewer. There are a many other free/open source development tools that are better than KDevelop.
Linux enthousiasts should be carefull. Look and learn from windows!! Because they are also learning from you (and Mac)! Thin-clients, dedicated webserver releases, cheap (free) databases, it is all comming our way with the Longhorn release.
This isn’t really an objective review. Lame publicity and a typical anti-MS reviewer. There are a many other free/open source development tools that are better than KDevelop.
This isn’t really an objective comment. Please give examples of non-java programming IDE’s which are better than KDevelop?
I do not know Nautilus (Gnome) or Directory Opus 8.
I only know Konqueror, and to put it with some understatement:
Konqueror can do almost anything as a filemanager.
Let us take a fairly complex task to fulfil:
You want to have:
1) a directory on a lokal disk
2) one on a ftp server
3) one on a windows share
4) and have an audio cd in the cdrom drive.
you want to get the audio tracks ogg encoded to the windows share, while downloading an ISO9660 image file from the ftp server to the local directory.
You further want to copy some files from your local directory to the windows share.
You can do this with konqueror, with having as an interface ONE Window, which has a tree on the left side (like windows explorer) and the main window split into 4 smaller sub-windows.
You see every item – even the audio tracks – as files which can be copied by drag and drop from each window to each other window or to a location in the tree view. Of course you cannot copy something TO the audio CD, since it is not writeable.
The only thing I can think of which does not work with konqueror is burning CDs. I am speaking of KDE 3.3.x here.
Maybe Directory Opus can do this all too, I don’t know, but for me konqueror feels like the cockpit of a spaceship, it gives me CONTROL and OVERVIEW of what is going on on my system. Give it a try and see for yourself, maybe it suits your needs, maybe not. Dual-boot machines are quite common nowadays.
It’s a shame there’s not even one clue regarding project debugging, which is quite crucial in some cases. I don’t know about VS.net but VS6 surely has much better and clearer debugging features than KDevelop.
And this linux-zealot also forgot to mention that VS.NET ist fully automatable via its own IDE. This is really important to extend the IDE.
I think they should also take a look at Sharp Develop, which is at http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/
It’s basically a GPLed .NET IDE that has most (except the debugger) of the features of VS.net and a few that it does.
It is very nice, but the debugging and the web forms support is missing.
… this just pisses me off. What I’m hoping for is a VS.NET clone for Linux, and KDevelop doesn’t come close. MonoDevelop is the best I’ve seen, but again doesn’t touch VS.NET.
Oh, well if we’re not comparing C/C++ IDE’s then Delphi beats everything hands-down!
As someone whom use the Delphi IDE every day I cant tell you that kick ass, but the Borlands C Builder X IDE is better yet, has lot of things Delphi IDE doesn’t like code administration, versioning, automatic generated CMM graphics, etc.
sharpdevelop is nice, and has an assload of potential, but at this point i wouldnt compare it to kdevelop let alone vs.net. personally, im not a fan of the “one environment for everything” deal. i use komodo by activestate for perl/python stuff, intellij idea for java/jsp stuff, and gedit for everything else (i dont like working with c/c++). as much as i like gnome, im not a fan of C, anjuta, or glade.
as for the article, the author should have tried to say “look at how cool kdevelop has gotten”. comparing it to vs.net is a joke, all you can do is compare it to the subset of features vs has that are comparable to kdevelop. as has been pointed out in the comments, vs does pretty much anything. and qtdesigner is NOT a part of kdevelop, it isnt even written by the same people. kdevelop has no equivilent to the vs.net form designer, and pointing to a different tool that does isnt comparing kdevelop anymore, its compareing the kde development environement with the windows development environment.
Write software that runs on both Windows & Linux.
Write apps that run on both Windows & Linux.
http://www.realbasic.com/
Tired of Microsoft’s always shifting focus, here’s an alternative to the VB6/#NET mess.
..and qtdesigner is NOT a part of kdevelop, it isnt even written by the same people..
Well Qt Designer is integrated into KDevelop 3.2.0 as a KPart thanks to the excellent work of Alex Dymo. There is a connection between the author of the KDevelop code completion parser, and the author of Qt 4.x Designer too I believe..
“As someone whom use the Delphi IDE every day I cant tell you that kick ass, but the Borlands C Builder X IDE is better yet, has lot of things Delphi IDE doesn’t like code administration, versioning, automatic generated CMM graphics, etc. ”
Well, I used Delphi for 2 1/2 years before switching back to a job with C++. I can honestly say it was an excellent IDE whose features and performance were always ahead of C++ Builder. Of course, that was in the days of Delphi 5/C++ Builder 3/4. Things may be different now. The magic of Delphi was it’s proprietry nature (flame on), it was incredibly well coupled to the IDE and had keywords that supported RAD directly. C++ Builder had a special C++ compiler that added new keywords to the language like the ugly __property to achieve this.
Still, now I use Qt and Designer + whatever compiler and debugger is available on the platform. It’s not as nice as a well integrated IDE, but there are _always_ tradeoffs. In my experience, nothing in Delphi, C++ Builder, Win32 or MFC even approached the power and flexibility of Qt layouts when designing forms (don’t even mention ‘align’ – please!), but that’s another story.
sorry, my bad. havnt used kdeveloper (seriously) for quite awhile, last time i checked, qt designer integration was mostly a button that launched the app.
“However, a typical “viewpoint” of the linux crowd is, that ALL MS products suck like hell. Which is untrue. Would they be market leaders then?”
Yes, yes they would. You can’t remove somebody from a monopoly standing because all the involved companies are bound by contract to sell only MS things.
If every computer manufacturer requires you to take microsoft products with your computer because of an agreement they have with microsoft, it really doesn’t matter whether the product is good or not, does it? If you ask for them to take it off and they say “We can’t do that, however you can uninstall it later” (which they do), then you are still giving your money to them (MS).
When every company is so entrenched with MS products that it won’t even answer a question about a BIOS bug unless you have “XP installed on your system”, there is no question as to whether they would still be market leaders…
That’s not to say there aren’t a few good MS products, just that even if there weren’t it wouldn’t change 20 years of monopolistic behavior…
“I keep hearing about Linux (and other OSS) taking MS market share. I’ve yet to see any of it (except in niche markets).”
I’m sure it depends where and who (what type of companies) you work for. I’m seeing a huge amount of interest in the UK in moving away from Microsoft – main concerns, lack of security (viruses and continuous administration and shut down while the computers are cleared (in small companies)) and costs.
Of this huge amount of interest quite a lot of small and medium companies are making the move away from Microsoft enough to give Linux folk a huge amount of work lined up
Knowing Linux is certainly keeping me happy and employed.