Sun Microsystems is guiding the spotlight away from a once-prominent feature of Solaris 10. Elsewhere, Solaris Engineering: huge amount of technical articles. Sun Microsystems is revamping the start-up process for its Solaris operating system, scrapping an awkward, elderly approach for one the company promises will be faster, more familiar and more useful on a wide variety of computers.
Sun has second thoughts about Linux on Solaris
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Eugenia Loli
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The usual thinking from Sun.
In less then 2 years they will change their minds about an “open source” solaris.
“The interest in doing Linux applications on Solaris has been for migration. But when you talk about running certified data center applications, you’re going to run that on the full stack of software that’s been certified,” said Tom Goguen, director of Solaris marketing for Sun.
Well, I think they have a point here. I don’t know of any commercial vendors that certify their applications for “Linux” generically, they’ll usually certify them for specific distros and releases. And I doubt they’d bother certifying them specifically for Janus. This leaves you with the option of running the particular version of Linux your application was certified for.
Try getting support from your software vendor for an application that’s been re-hosted on a non-native OS. They tend to get kind of stinky about that sort of thing.
You can’t run datacenter grade certified Linux apps on an OS other than Linux or your certification won’t be valid. Sun went ahead too fast with Janus before realizing this. Now they’re backing Xen, which is a good thing IMHO. The end result will be the same so it’s not like they’re really taking features away. I picture Janus as a kind of emulation layer similar to the ones in the BSD’s that emulate Linux and other binaries. Virtualizing the whole OS is an improvement over this if you ask me since, running on its actual native OS, a Linux binary will be less sensitive to emulation related bugs. I don’t see why Sun deserves a bashing over this.
Why try to re-invent the wheel? Xen offers Sun the ability to run Linux distro certified apps on their platform. While Janus in theory would do so, getting the certification would be costly endeavor. Smart thinking on their part. Now if Sun would only stop the boneheaded corporate take overs that are wasting money and man hours.
Why bother. Who is going to care anyway. All the programs that are used in web stacks run native on Solaris and those that don’t with Xen who cares. Just load the certified distro and go. So what’s left? As the momentum bilds most apps will run native, then you can ‘zone em’ and be happy.
Now if Sun would only put out a line of developer x86 workstations and low end deskside servers that were certified to run the GA releases, stand back.
Ditto the waste of money acquisitions.
BTW, if you haven’t tried the community release, you will be surprised, in fact a lot of folks are going to be 🙂
That Sun’s greatest misachievement is supporting Linux in a poorly way and supporting Windows in an adequate way. What a world. Talk about sleeping with the enemy.
.Net will eat Java alive, and Sun will be too late to make Java last… Oh, but Java is cross-platform, right? Good. But once the developers start using the .Net tools, they won’t look back to the Java tools.
Sun, RIP in 5 years.
You’re wrong Java is here to stay. With the support of many big companies like Sun, IBM. Have you seen any financial institution using .NET for any mission critical applications?
First, the title is a little flame-bait-ish. Second, please read the article. Lastly, would the detractors rather Solaris not have Xen support then?
Brag about it as much as you want, but the multiprocessor machines with easy administration and development tools are in favor of Microsoft right now. Intel and AMD, hardware-wise, are becoming a pain the arse of Sun. Sun wants to leverage Java in its favor, but as you noted, Java is a everyones tech and should be treated as such. Sun shouldn’t try to coopt the Java developers in any harming way. .Net, Mono, Windows, Linux, are here to stay.
PHP is gaining corporate support while Sun drags Java to its ending, but the competition is bigger than PHP alone.
> .Net will eat Java alive, and Sun will be too late to make Java last… Oh, but Java is cross-platform, right? Good. But once the developers start using the .Net tools, they won’t look back to the Java tools.
Dewd, you’re a bonified bonehead if you think that .Net is posing some sort of a mortal threat to Java. You’re probably so bogged down in your own ignorance that you don’t see anything that is going on in the real world. .Net lost its momentum more than a year ago and the hype around .Net is all but history by now. Java has much wider deployed base that .Net in the server environment and margin between Java and .Net is not narrowing, but widening. If you want a hands on examle that Java is *much* more popular than .Net, just check the number of jobs available for each platform. You quickly discover that there are almost twice as many Java jobs compared to .Net. There is absolutely nothing .Net can do that Java/J2EE can’t, only Java is more solid, more mature, cheaper, and more open than .Not. The only edge .Net had over Java was the quality of IDE, now Java has beaten .Net even on in that department — Java IDE’s (IntelliJ IDEA, NetBeans, Eclipse, etc.) are now better than VS.NET. There is no reason to use .Net any more, unless you’re an M$ loving masochist.
” Java is *much* more popular than .Net”
And you are a neanderthal if you believe that popularity does not fade away once a technology becomes *obsolete*.
What OS do Java developers use 99% of the time? Windows. Unless Java developers all use Solaris, shut up. You are on Microsoft’s territory, bummer.
My main grip with Java developers is how they use and love Windows, while they swear by the cross-platform opportunities of Java. What if Java was a Microsoft technology that you could deploy on Windows with 16 CPUs and 4 to 8 GBs of RAM? Would it still matter that Java was cross-platform at all? Talk about politics.
There was a time when Slashdot was absurdly bigoted, and OSNews provided a quiet, technical forum for those of us interested in operating systems. Now that Groklaw seems to have siphoned off the crazies from Slashdot, Slashdot has suddenly become a lot more reasonable. And at the same time, OSNews seems to have gone off the deep-end — with every post degenerating into an instant flame war. I thought I’d never say this, but could this site please be a little more like Slashdot?
> What OS do Java developers use 99% of the time? Windows. Unless Java developers all use Solaris, shut up. You are on Microsoft’s territory, bummer. My main grip with Java developers is how they use and love Windows, while they swear by the cross-platform opportunities of Java
Again you’re drowning in your own puddle of ignorance. A *lot* of Java development is done Linux, Solaris, and Mac OS. I for one can’t even remember the last time I used Windows at all (I use Linux and Solaris all the time). As for deployment on the server side, Windows is probably the least deployed platform — J2EE applications invariably get deployed on either Linux, Solaris, or ther Unix varians and as a last resort on Windows. So, cross platform is *extremely* important regardless what M$ stoners and nimrods are telling you. Windows and M$ technology in general is still a big steaming pile of crap. If you want quality, performance and independence, stick with Java.
It’s funny you bring that up because Slashdot has definitely improved in the past half a year or more. Maybe it’s a combination of the crazies going to Groklaw, OSNews, and Michael Simms being fired.
But yeah, 4 years ago OSNews was basically a site for technically-oriented people to discuss technical matters, and then we got the GNU/FSF crazies moving in to ruin everything – as they always do.
Oh well, all good things come to an end.
Well, I hope that Linux emulation on Sun using either Janus or Xen is supported longer than Windows emulation was.
Remember running MS apps on a SparcStation? Probably not. But I bought one of those x86 boards and I can tell you that the whole experience really, really sucked, beginning with trying to use a Sun keyboard for Windows apps. The software was really buggy, and I don’t think it lasted much longer than one revision. So I ditched my 64-bit SparcStation and bought a Windows laptop and never looked back.
My point is that Sun never seems to stick with anything very long that isn’t their core business – selling Sparc processors. So their backpedalling on Linux compatibility doesn’t surprise me.
I too think that OpenSolaris will last only a couple of years, when Sun changes it’s mind again. To the comment that too many people already have the source code – what are you going to do with source code once Sun revokes the (open-source) license on you? Well I’ll tell you – exactly what the Mac clone makers did once Jobs was rehired at Apple and closed the Mac back up – hold a going-out-of-business sale.
> And you are a neanderthal if you believe that popularity does not fade away once a technology becomes *obsolete*
If you think Java is somehow obsolete, how come .Net is mimicing and copying pretty much everything from Java every step of the way? Remember .Net is just a bad rip off of Java.
“A *lot* of Java development is done Linux, Solaris, and Mac OS.”
Swing on Linux sucks in handling accented characters — *since ever*. It means that lots of languages, besides your beloved English, have problem on Linux. And thanks to Sun caring about this, 10 years have passed and it’s still a pain in the arse to type “coração” (heart) in a Swing IDE, thank you very much. But that’s not a problem if we can avoid the Swing apps. The other issue is why isn’t Java installed by default on all Linux distros? Let it go, Sun.
Meanwhile, the Windows users don’t have a big problem running Swing apps and installing Java on their machines. Fair enough. But now Microsoft is making available free and cheap IDEs and free development frameworks. It’s all free or cheap enough. Any resemblance with Java?
As long as you hippies want to play this game of “can’t we all just get along” we might as well stop dissing on Microsoft, too. They did give us IE for free. And Windows media player. And .NET and Paint and Notepad and Minesweeper. That’s all free when you buy the OS.
Maybe .NET and Java can merge and compliment one another.
Maybe Sun can run Windows in Xen virtual servers on their E15000. Man, that would be heaven.
You kids crack me up. I think I’m gonna go smoke another bowl.
I too think that OpenSolaris will last only a couple of years, when Sun changes it’s mind again. To the comment that too many people already have the source code – what are you going to do with source code once Sun revokes the (open-source) license on you? Well I’ll tell you – exactly what the Mac clone makers did once Jobs was rehired at Apple and closed the Mac back up – hold a going-out-of-business sale.
Quote:
#
6. TERMINATION.
*
6.1. This License and the rights granted hereunder will terminate automatically if You fail to comply with terms herein and fail to cure such breach within 30 days of becoming aware of the breach. Provisions which, by their nature, must remain in effect beyond the termination of this License shall survive.
*
6.2. If You assert a patent infringement claim (excluding declaratory judgment actions) against Initial Developer or a Contributor (the Initial Developer or Contributor against whom You assert such claim is referred to as Participant) alleging that the Participant Software (meaning the Contributor Version where the Participant is a Contributor or the Original Software where the Participant is the Initial Developer) directly or indirectly infringes any patent, then any and all rights granted directly or indirectly to You by such Participant, the Initial Developer (if the Initial Developer is not the Participant) and all Contributors under Sections 2.1 and/or 2.2 of this License shall, upon 60 days notice from Participant terminate prospectively and automatically at the expiration of such 60 day notice period, unless if within such 60 day period You withdraw Your claim with respect to the Participant Software against such Participant either unilaterally or pursuant to a written agreement with Participant.
*
6.3. In the event of termination under Sections 6.1 or 6.2 above, all end user licenses that have been validly granted by You or any distributor hereunder prior to termination (excluding licenses granted to You by any distributor) shall survive termination.
Unless a license contains some kind of escape clause, it is irrevocable. The CDDL (under which Solaris is released) contains the 3 clauses above. None of them give Sun the right to yank the code out from underneath us for no reason. Do you not think SCO would have terminated the licenses to all of the code they donated to the OSS community by now? Like someone above me said, use your head before you post.
Hello,
last year I talked with a Sun sales representative on a traid fair and I asked him about Janus. He told me that Janus turned out to be very desktop-centric but quite useless for servers. What we see now is just a consequence of this. Xen is clearly server oriented, so you can run your server applications in Linux environment with Solaris underneath. But if you want to run Linux applications on Solaris workstation, then Janus is more usefull for you.
Regards,
Anton
The boot chart for halcyon dates from mon december 13 2004.Besides it’s a bit dated i would have liked to see x86_64 charts for comparison.Correct me if i’m wrong but was a x86_64 port not avaible at that time?I think 33 seconds is quite a lot.
Am I responding to a troll here? It’s hard to tell sometimes.
Sun could very easily pull out of the whole Open Solaris thing. They would just stop funding it. Yes there’s a chance someone might pick it up, but at the very least Sun would probably kill all momemtum and scare off a lot of people from taking any further part in the project.
After that, does it really matter who has the source still on their own disk?
Yeah, that’s a troll. The source (if you can live with the CDDL) is out there for good.
The Linux community has demonstrated that it will continue to progress with or without a single big company paying the bills. OpenSolaris needs a decade and a self-sufficient community beyond Sun employees before they’ve reached that point of trust.
Sun has released the CURRENT VERSION of Solaris under the CDDL license. They have NOT given a perpetual CDDL license covering future versions of Solaris, which they may decide to revert to a proprietary license.
They might decide that anything developed under the CDDL license cannot be linked to or used with a future closed version of Solaris, just as GPL software cannot now be linked to CDDL.
Sure, you might be able to continue developing “open source” stuff for Solaris 10, but you might not be able to sell it to anyone using a proprietary Solaris 11 or 12.
You people really ought to start thinking before you call anyone stupid.
Here’s what the CDDL actually gives you rights to:
1.10. Original Software means the Source Code and Executable form of computer software code that is originally released under this License.
[this means specifically Solaris 10]
2. License Grants.
2.1. The Initial Developer Grant.
Conditioned upon Your compliance with Section 3.1 below and subject to third party intellectual property claims, the Initial Developer hereby grants You a world-wide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license:
(a) under intellectual property rights (other than patent or trademark) Licensable by Initial Developer, to use, reproduce, modify, display, perform, sublicense and distribute the Original Software …
[You can keep on using Solaris 10 forever …]
[But you also see that Sun reserves the right to change the terms of the license]:
4.1. New Versions.
Sun Microsystems, Inc. is the initial license steward and may publish revised and/or new versions of this License from time to time.
4.2. Effect of New Versions.
You may always continue to use, distribute or otherwise make the Covered Software available under the terms of the version of the License under which You originally received the Covered Software.
[You can keep on using Solaris 10 forever, but the new terms cover Solaris 11, 12, …]
I hope this clarifies some of the misconceptions here.
“Unless a license contains some kind of escape clause, it is irrevocable. The CDDL (under which Solaris is released) contains the 3 clauses above. None of them give Sun the right to yank the code out from underneath us for no reason. Do you not think SCO would have terminated the licenses to all of the code they donated to the OSS community by now? Like someone above me said, use your head before you post.”
I agree that Sun is not going to pull the license out from under Solaris 10. However, your quotes from the CDDL license say nothing about what they will do with Solaris 11 or 12, since CDDL V1.0 only covers Solaris 10. Sun’s lawyers are not so stupid that they will guarantee a free Solaris in perpetuity.
My original assertion about Sun maybe changing their minds on OpenSolaris still stands – the license says absolutely nothing about whether Solaris 11 will be open or proprietary, nor would Sun’s lawyers even allow such forward-looking speculation in an extant license, since it would possibly open Sun to future legal liabilities.
So there you have your “escape clause” – the license only covers Solaris 10. Yes, it’s irrevocable. But what will be important for Solaris 11 developers will be the terms of the Solaris 11 license, which Sun has not said will be CDDL.
Believe me, *I* use my head before I post – how about you?
4.1. New Versions.
Sun Microsystems, Inc. is the initial license steward and may publish revised and/or new versions of this License from time to time.
Sun also controls the Solaris versioning and release dates. They can, if they want, release Solaris Version 11 next month under a closed-source license. There is absolutely nothing in CDDL 1.0 that prevents them from doing so.
So, yes, Sun CAN pull the rug out fom under open-source CDDL developers any time they want to. Just read the fine print.
Sun can kill OpenSolaris like RedHat can kill Linux.
Here’s the deal.
Sun is as obligated by the CDDL as anyone else.
While Sun can taken OpenSolaris, and fork it, and release their own distribution, what they can not do is hold back any changes to any of the CDDL licensed code (well, of course they can, but they’d be violating the license).
Suns only OTHER option is to take the “pre-OpenSolaris” fork and release a new OS from that, but then they wouldn’t be able to leverage any of the community changes made to the code base, including their own, as those files are all under the CDDL.
So, Sun really can’t back out. Backing out would effectively be suicide, as they’ll need to take a, probably, 1, 2, or 3 year code base, go WAY back on their word to the community, to the market, and to their employees (losing VAST amounts of good will), etc. It’s not like Sun has been quiet about OpenSolaris, this isn’t some little gem silently slipped in to the community. It’s a Big Deal.
If Sun had released under a more liberal BSD license, or Apache license, then they could do just that. But they didn’t. They’re stuck with it now and need to sleep in the bed they made for themselves.
Sun can kill OpenSolaris like RedHat can kill Linux.
Here’s the deal.
Sun is as obligated by the CDDL as anyone else.
While Sun can taken OpenSolaris, and fork it, and release their own distribution, what they can not do is hold back any changes to any of the CDDL licensed code (well, of course they can, but they’d be violating the license).
Suns only OTHER option is to take the “pre-OpenSolaris” fork and release a new OS from that, but then they wouldn’t be able to leverage any of the community changes made to the code base, including their own, as those files are all under the CDDL.
So, Sun really can’t back out. Backing out would effectively be suicide, as they’ll need to take a, probably, 1, 2, or 3 year code base, go WAY back on their word to the community, to the market, and to their employees (losing VAST amounts of good will), etc. It’s not like Sun has been quiet about OpenSolaris, this isn’t some little gem silently slipped in to the community. It’s a Big Deal.
If Sun had released under a more liberal BSD license, or Apache license, then they could do just that. But they didn’t. They’re stuck with it now and need to sleep in the bed they made for themselves.
For anyone reading comments from old articles, this guy doesn’t know what he is talking about. It is called dual-licensing. I could release a piece of software I wrote under the MPL, GPL, BSDL, CDDL, NPL, CPL and a proprietary EULA all at the same time since I own the copyright.
Fuck I wish people would use their heads before posting.
Oh, and the guy argueing above did say “revoke”.
Revoke /= Releasing newer versions under different license.
Completely different things.
The idea seems far fetched, since Solaris is such a popular OS, but if Janus worked well there would come a time when ISV’s would STOP shipping their applications for Solaris because “You can just run the Linux binary under Janus”…
“Oh, and the guy argueing above did say “revoke”. Revoke /= Releasing newer versions under different license. Completely different things.”
So don’t get bent out of shape because of one sloppy word.
And I’m getting sick of people in this forum calling other people stupid or dumb. I’ve got a PhD in theoretical physics. What’s your IQ? At least in the double digits, eh?