A rant about “year of Linux on the desktop” from a tired old man. I’ve been part of the Linux community since before Linux was called Linux. Over the years there’s been many people telling me directly that Linux is silly or wrong or imperfect, or that free and open source software is foolish or pointless. A lot more people have, of course, pontificated along those lines in public, and not directed it at me. I’m not claiming to be targeted at that, but I’ve been around and active for long enough that things accumulate. It’s the end of a long year for me, and I though I’d let off some steam myself. Hence this rant.
Over time, the goal posts of success keep being moved by the naysayers. I’m too tired to dig up all important milestones and dates, or references, but here’s highlights of the timeline as I have experienced it (years may be a little off).
The most popular operating system in the world by a huge margin, and yet, it still gets ridiculed by users of platforms that still have to manually install drivers and update applications by hand while getting spied on left, right, and centre. Strange times we live in.
It’s so sad. I mean, PCs come with Windows. And the vast majority know zero about even doing a Windows install. Yet still, people will install Linux, even beginners in some cases. Most of the time, I find the experienced are going to install Linux (but obviously a small percentage). It’s just not the majority of users (most of which have no business being on the Internet).
The fact that the Steam Deck doesn’t run Windows should be noted.
chriscox,
Why is it sad? The author also seems frustrated at all the naysayers too, and I suspect it may be even more frustrating that they are right about linux’s small market share…but it really shouldn’t matter, does it? Why do we really need to care what OS others use? I mean, my own utility of an operating system has never derived from it’s popularity (beyond having a sufficiently critical mass to keep it viable). Windows being dominant doesn’t make it the best choice for me. Give everyone the freedom to choose the hardware they want with the software they want without any coercion. I think we have some work to do to eliminate coercive & unfair practices in the market place, but otherwise I harbor no resentment for those who choose windows any more than I would for those who choose chocolate ice cream.
Yes, PCs come with a preinstalled OS which is actually ready for the desktop and offers support for software which was released as early as in the late 90s.
Linux is “ready” only for geeks/IT pros who have a ton of time to tinker with the OS.
I take issue with the “late 90s” bit since Windows 9x and Windows NT have incompatible DirectXs. For example, DirectX for Windows NT does not support 256-color mode, so games like Colin McRae 1.0 which use 256-color mode for the menus won’t work and this particular issue is not fixed by “compatibility mode”. There is also a timing issue when running some Windows 9x games on Windows NT which makes the games run in slow motion, but this is fixed by compatibility mode thankfully.
Windows 2000/XP compatibility is excellent though, with the usual exception of secdrv.sys. The only issue I have come across is some games trying to read HID devices which aren’t controllers, mice or keyboards (for example PC fan speed controllers or Alienware LED controllers) as if they were controllers, mice or keyboards and crashing as a result, but that’s a programmer error I guess (assuming all HID devices are controllers, mice or keyboards). Really my only complaint is secdrv.sys, and of course this problem happened during the Windows 10 as-a-service dark ages. They had no problem making it an option for Windows 7/8.1 users. But when it comes to Windows 10, “it’s a service so we can break apps at will. That’s what “as a service” means, right?”
Most people don’t use their pc for much. Googling/web, social media, email, stream stuff, store pics they rarely look at… The Linux desktop seems to be capable of those things without any real problem or tinkering. I think a whole lot of people could switch to the Linux desktop and be just fine, but they don’t because there’s no motivation to do so and they’re already familiar with Windows, MacOS, or their smartphone doing those things. Most people don’t give a damn because why should they?
Sometimes ships sail…
friedchicken,
Completely agree.
Telling people what they need has worked out well for Circuit City and a number of other now defunct businesses. Hoping they never have to explore their computer or do anything outside of your expectations… Honestly, I don’t even feel like it’s necessary to finish that sentence.
dark2,
Do you realize that Circuit City only sold windows computers? It’s ironic that you would try to highlight their failure as an example of why linux isn’t suitable. Anyways, you haven’t refuted anything friedchicken said at all: many home users are using the web for nearly everything and might have some documents/pictures too but linux can do those things without much fuss. You might find it’s not for you, and that is fine, but friedchicken wasn’t prescribing linux for anyone who doesn’t want it, only pointing out the fact that it does handle many ordinary use cases fine.
Circuit city went under because they told people Divx disks that would stop working after 48 hours were what customers needed, much the same way friedchicken and other Linux advocates tell people they only need a tablet, webapps, etc. It’s much the same as watching an episode of Kitchen Nightmares and the management tells the customers their food is good. When that fails they try appealing to authority (in that case Gordon Ramsey) that their terrible food is good, and actually believe if he just tells people their terrible food is good it will solve everything. Sorry, real people don’t settle for the “you must only need a web browser and email” argument. It’s tone deaf, customer hostile nonsense.
dark2,
It’s a bad metaphor with too much handwaving needed to get to the point, just sayin’… Also unlike your single use divx disks, webapps & tablets are actually extremely popular so you’d need more explanation for why the metaphor still holds, but honestly I think it’s just a bad metaphor in the first place.
More to your point though, about linux telling people what they need, I actually think apple and microsoft are more guilty of this. Linux tends to be fairly well geared to people who want to maximize choice and customization, maybe even to a fault, which is quite the opposite of what you are saying. So, no I’m afraid I cannot agree with your assessment, but it’s fine because I’ll acknowledge that linux isn’t for everyone and IMHO everyone should be free to make choices that are best for themselves.
Except when they very literally do. For all this blame you attribute to linux for telling users what they need, you seem to be guilty of doing the very same thing. I for one make a very conscious decision to respect people’s own choices, whatever their choices may be, maybe a linux desktop works for them or maybe it doesn’t, but I maintain that their actual needs are what actually matter and *not* what you say they need. Think about this carefully, because it highlights some of the hypocrisy of your position. I hope you would agree with me that whatever our opinions are, everyone’s needs and preferences are different and people aren’t wrong for being different than you and I.
When it comes to GNU/Linux i feel it’s safe to say some people and their opinion indeed still belongs to the 90s.
“The fact that the Steam Deck doesn’t run Windows should be noted.”
No, it should not. This is like claiming victory because your wireless router runs Linux instead of BSD.
The fact that only Microsoft uses Windows operating system for running games is in my opinion telling. That is there is a whole lot of gaming outside Windows ecosystem. And that gaming oriented ecosystem(s) do work just fine without Windows. GNU/Linux is now a significant player also. You just can’t ignore product such as Steam Deck. And to continue to claim GNU/Linux can’t run games. This claim was refuted. Numerous times.
Agreed. Gaming is one of the last obstacles towards full home user switch (or majority of it). Once games get either native Linux ports (some do, even AAA games) or Proton start running decently new AAA titles, nobody will even want to use Windows anymore because, big surprise, people don’t like to pay for stuff (Windoze piracy statistics over the years are really telling here) and don’t like to be spied on (which Windows 10 does and Windows 11 does even more. Linux doesn’t and it doesn’t even require a CPU that costs arm and a leg and a spychip nobody wants and nobody asked for).
Why would you expect Microsoft to use something other than their own NT OS line of operating systems? They understand it the best, a bunch of VMS guys made sure it was highly portable when they developed it, etc. Honestly it sounds like you let the Linux propaganda get to you. The problem here is bringing it up is about as irrelevant as saying “I prefer sedimentary rocks.” At best it’s moving the goal posts, but like the wireless router, it just doesn’t matter what OS it’s running because people don’t do work on it.
> The most popular operating system in the world by a huge margin, and yet, it still gets ridiculed by …
You must hang out at different places than I do, both digitally and in the snail-world; I’ve yet to observe either linux or excel (from the earlier news post, where you claim the same) being ridiculed.
I’ve no idea where “The most popular operating system in the world by a huge margin” comes from.
Android? The Linux kernel inside? Thom must be joking, 1) 99.99% of users don’t know or care about the kernel. 2) The Linux kernel could be replaced and nothing will change for the user. 3) The Linux kernel itself is not an OS. By itself the Linux kernel is 100% useless.
Maybe Richard Stallman was right all along. Linux is just a kernel, and as a result it’s not that important to the user experience. The real culprit for Desktop Linux having such an awful user experience is the GNU userland, PulseAudio, ALSA, and Xorg (although if I were Richard Stallman, I wouldn’t take pride in being partly responsible for that mess). Enigma and Android are actually nice OSes and beloved by their users (as long as you run them on compatible hardware, which is how they are sold so no problems here), and they are rarely marketed as Linux as to not scare off normal users by association with Desktop Linux.
On a semi-related note, I find it amusing that win32/64 is becoming the stable API of Desktop Linux and the Steam DRM client into its default app vending service (with repositories slowly becoming an analog to Windows Update, aka the service you use to update the OS components and the bundled browser and media player).
But that is the beauty of it. Isn’t it? In the end it’s not all that important if majority of user does or doesn’t care if the kernel their operating system uses is Linux. And if we focus only on end users and their devices. In 2023 it’s rather safe to assume an average person uses more devices running Linux then Windows in their home.
It will happen eventually. Once somebody else makes this decision instead of general public. Appealing to general public to do the right thing. That will never work. Not in regards to adopting GNU/Linux on desktop, using Mastodon, saving the planet by preserving the environment … General public couldn’t care less. Nice example of this is Firefox. General public just ditched Firefox and switched to Chrome. No questions asked and no real resistance involved whatsoever. No real technical reason on why that was needed. Just because. Google can now for example start blocking ad block extensions. Due to the position they are now in. And general public won’t do anything about it at all. At best they will defend Chrome and what Google is doing. As often seen by Microsoft and Apple users.
No, it will not unless Linux distros start caring about backward compatibility, intercompatbility and stability.
All these words mean nothing for Linux distros and it shows (except for RHEL/Debian but those are not desktop distros).
Artem S. Tashkinov,
It’s the dependencies that are always tricky. I think flatpak and snaps are delivering on this though. Compatibility on windows isn’t all roses either, after all windows is where the term “DLL hell” originated. Users expect things to always work on windows, but they sometimes take for granted that developers are patching their software to keep things working over time. Interestingly enough part of my job is fixing software breakages on windows.
I’ve been using Debian on the desktop for ages and I don’t believe there’s anything wrong with RHEL either…?
Oh, God, here we go again.
Can you grandma use either of Debian or RHEL? No? What are you talking about then?
Meanwhile grandpas and grandmas use Windows just fine.
That’s the bloody difference between Linux (distros) and Windows. The first requires you to be a geek/IT pro, the second can be used by a toddler/very old person.
Why wouldn’t grandparents be able to use Debian?
@Geck
Imagine they connect an obscure USB device to your Debian/Redhat distro and there are no drivers (kernel modules for it), finita la comedia.
Imagine you send them a video file encoded using H.265. Good luck playing it.
Imagine you ask them to share a desktop screen cast because they are lost on a particular website? Good luck with that.
Imagine they want to install desktop Telegram. Under Windows -> Download an exe, double click it, all done. Under Linux? Good luck with that.
I can come up with three dozen more simple tasks which an idiot on Windows can perform just fine and which Linux will make you pull all your hair.
You look like yet another programmer/IT pro who absolutely overestimates what people can and cannot do.
Artem S. Tashkinov,
Yes actually they can. For a given desktop environment, you might not even know which distro is running under the hood.
Linux too. I typically advise people to stick to what they’re most familiar with: no need to fix what works. But I’m sure I’m not the only person to have worked with older folks on linux and guess what: it’s not nearly as difficult as you’re making it out to be. If they’re locked into windows software, then sure that’s an issue, but if not, then it’s not difficult to pick up a linux desktop and applications. I’d even argue some of microsoft’s UI changes in windows & office have felt more foreign than switching to linux at times.
Your counter-examples really fail to hit the mark. The fact is that kids and grandparents can and do use linux just fine. My kids actually used linux during the pandemic. I get the impression that you are too biased to really accept the truth, but many people have been using linux as a home desktop for quite some time. It’s not for everybody, but man there’s no reason to become so defensive just because kids and grandma are using linux desktops like it’s sacrilege.
@Geck
It’s not about whether grandparents are able to use it, but whether the point is even relevant. “I installed Linux on the PC of a relative who is barely computer literate and they didn’t have any problems with it” isn’t really an argument as they barely do anything with their PC. It also likely explains that time when Mint started urging people to update their systems as 5-30% of their users were on an EOL’d version. If they actually use their PC for stuff, there will be problems. If they just use it to browse the internet once in a while and never run updates, then why are we even talking about them? They’re barely a computer user to begin with.
I honestly don’t get the grandparent argument. Grandparents don’t lead a market migration.
PC market migration are driven by businesses and/or the young. Neither of these groups have taken up Linux on the desktop in any numbers.
Business, until Linux distros have an MDM with feature parity of the Windows versions, they won’t gain traction. Mid/Big business needs this to even consider a platform Only Windows and Mac have it. People will use at home what they use at work because of familiarity and/or working from home.
Similarly no other OS will gain traction for the same reason.
I honestly don’t get why Ubuntu or similar don’t produce something in this area (and before anyone mentions Landscape, its a laughable implementation of an MDM that misses core functions)
Kids, unless it plays games better than windows, they won’t gain traction.
@Artem S. Tashkinov
Majority of grandparents will never do the things you mentioned alone. Hence their children or grandchildren will do all that for them. And among that children or grandchildren not all of them are capable of doing that. Regardless of the OS. But there is always somebody around knowledgeable in this things. GNU/Linux or Windows it’s all the same for them. Hence in the end grandparents can watch videos, use USB, participate on social networks on the internet just fine. Running GNU/Linux. As it just works for them. And if something doesn’t work a knowledgeable person will fix it. That is exactly on how Windows manages this. Or are you telling me grandparents can buy Windows PC and all the things you mentioned will just work for them automatically? It won’t and it never did. It only works as there is a lot of (free) labor involved. For making it happen on Windows. Without that (free) labor you have much bigger chance in succeeding with GNU/Linux. As drivers are readily available and software is in the store. It’s mostly hence just point and click. Windows never managed to do that. You always have to tackle with such things manually on Windows.
That is a half-assed excuse. A bunch of terms like stability, backward compatibility, intercompatibility … GNU/Linux on desktop can already do all that just fine. But still it will happen eventually. Excuses or no excuses.
“Appealing to general public to do the right thing.”
And this is why desktop Linux will always be more of a religious experience than a practical one. Once the community stops that, they would be able to take criticisms like: “every successful product has an SDK that ensures 3rd party apps just work, desktop Linux does not.” This here is pretty much the entire story as well. No SDK, no success (but people will immediately try to stretch this into something about Posix, or the Linux standard base, none of which cover full support for GUI apps.) Problem is such an SDK takes unification, effort, hundreds if not thousands of programmers, etc. something that is too late for the desktop Linux community to get on board with. They’ll immediately fork everything/rewrite the wheel and make 12 different competing SDKs to make a name for themselves as programmers instead of unifying.
“No real technical reason on why that was needed”
Yeah, Chrome is the better product so people switched. Wasn’t there a story about how the Firefox head was trying to tell users what to think instead of listening to feedback? I remember it was pretty crazy.
Come to think of it, the whole rise of Firefox in the first place disproves the “if they just tried it/came preinstalled theory.” Everyone changed from the free IE browser to firefox because it was better, therefore they aren’t changing to Linux because it’s a worse product. History proves they’ll try and switch if it’s a better product, so that’s the only valid conclusion.
dark2,
You are right, this does happen in linux circules, but to be fair it happens on windows also with microsoft framework du jour:
Win32/MFC/ActiveX/WinForms/WPF/.net
Even when I was primarily a windows user & dev I would look towards the FOSS community to help me write more portable software. I didn’t need binary compatibility like java, but I appreciated cross platform source code compatibility and usually this meant going to 3rd party toolkits to fill portability gaps in MS tools. Consider things like FLTK, SDL, QT, etc.
That isn’t really a fair comparison. Win32/MFC for C/C++ programming and performance. ActiveX for games. And Winforms/WPF are little more than GUI front ends for .Net programs. Regardless of WPF being a bit of a failure, they each serve a very different niche. Flatpack, Docker, Snap, etc. don’t seem to serve specific niches very well, just a bunch of people making minor technical arguments saying “my way is superior and I refuse to compromise.”
dark2,
Do you mean DirectX? Because by far and large I saw (and used) ActiveX mostly for enterprise UI & application programming, not games. ActiveX was used by ASP and even IE websites (yuck). I don’t think activex was common for games over high performance toolkits, I’m hard pressed to think of any though I’m sure some existed.
I agree there’s redundancy, but IMHO there’s a lot of overlapping & redundant technology whether we’re talking windows or linux and honestly we’re only scratching the surface of redundancy. If we start digging we’d be able to come up with a bunch more (on both operating systems). Remember OLE, DDE, com+, dcom, WSDL, soap, and friends? And we’re not even talking 3rd party providers like corba. It’s the same thing across the development landscape including all it’s niches. Personally I would stick to basic sockets for portability reasons whenever possible, but there are countless abstractions wherever we look.
I don’t disagree with you about this, but there are different motivations driving people’s decisions. Every divisive issue we face in tech is driven by well meaning people on all sides of the issues. X11 for example, though mature, is bloated and convoluted. Do we keep using what works as some want, or do you replace it with something cleaner? Programs written in C are notorious for memory bugs. Over time many of these bugs have been found, but large changing code bases are riddled with more and it hasn’t abated. Do we replace these dangerous languages or keep using them like we’ve always done? While I have my own opinions on these things, my point isn’t about my opinion so much as to illustrate why it’s hard for everyone to settle on one answer.
AFAIK Roblox used to run on ActiveX (and yes, you had to use IE to play it) as well as ActiveWorlds (old, failed Second Life clone). Other than that, I am not aware of any games that would require ActiveX to run. And Roblox doesn’t require it anymore either.
They are different though. On Windows, technologies evolve with time and some things like ActiveX get obsoleted because Microsoft is fulfilling their promise with better tools. Linux on the other hand has a bunch of distros with no real justification; just a bunch of vanity projects. That’s why everything is a debian clone and Windows/MacOS have versions.
walid,
If windows were open source, I am positive we’d see forks there too. And moreover microsoft’s unpopular decisions and “flop” releases would actually drive lots of customers to those forks in the exact same way that canonical drove users away from ubuntu to linux mint. So this gets to a deeper point of what benefits the community most: forced unification, or elective fragmentation? It’s an interesting question and I think the answer will probably depend on one’s implicit attitude of authoritarianism. For me “freedom” is of great importance, which is why I value FOSS over proprietary software/platforms, however this does imply people will pursue different competing solutions to the same problems, which can be seen as having both pros and cons (competition->good, fragmentation->bad). It’s an interesting point to ponder, but personally I value freedom too much to submit to an elitist group telling me what to do.
That comment went more in the direction it’s time to stop just appealing. And to do more. As it’s not like Windows or Chrome comes down to just appealing or to choice. GNU/Linux on desktop and Firefox must hence up the game. And no it doesn’t come down to SDK or developing some other technical solutions. That has been already done for decades now. It’s time to force it a bit. People are basically waiting for that and would like for that to happen. Just like they are being forced with Windows and Chrome. They want some of that from GNU/Linux and Firefox camp. To be pressured into it. They want to give in but there is no pressure involved and are somehow triggered because of that. As it’s not like they are geeks.
I hope SerenityOS takes up the mantle as the hobbyist system when linux goes full corpo.
HaikuOS could become one but it severely lacks manpower/funding.
Haiku is further along for sure.
> General public just ditched Firefox and switched to Chrome.
That’s two actions. The general public ended up with Chrome, by some means, and carried on – they (the majority) didn’t actively ditch Firefox, that was just a byproduct.
Doesn’t help that Mozilla’s focus has been on anything but what they should be focused on for the last decade+
It’s still my browser of choice, has been for twenty years but I now despise that organisation.
Meh. Just some half-assed excuses. That indeed is best one gets. Appealing to do the right thing.
Geck,
tux2bsd is describing things the way they are. You are constantly complaining about people not choosing FF and the demise in its marketshare. But do you have a realistic & practical solution to promote adoption? Because unless you do, it’s all just idle talk.
Actually i was describing things the way they are. It hence wasn’t a complaint.
tux2bsd,
That’s it. Most people stick with what’s bundled and they don’t even try anything else. It doesn’t necessarily mean an alternative wouldn’t suit them fine, but firefox doesn’t have the advantage of being bundled with a dominant platform. For better or worse that’s what it takes to be popular when all browsers more or less perceived the same by the public. They’re not even going to try anything else unless they’re actively experiencing a problem with the bundled browser.
I use FF and it’s forks also to encourage diversity, but I am disappointed by some of mozilla’s decisions that IMHO created unnecessary friction with the community. They cannot afford to divide the already small user base.
IE was bundled too. And nobody used IE.
Geck,
You gave me a good laugh…. if you were older you’d understand how funny that is 🙂
Up until the antitrust lawsuits everybody was using IE. And even if you wanted to run netscape, many websites only worked in IE. After the lawsuits the microsoft monopoly was clipped. Alternative browser installers got bundled in the EU and google paid hardware and software vendors to bundle chrome.
Too true.
Not to mention that everyone also used IE before it was bundled as well as a choice, over Netscape. IE 3 was a quite decent product compared to netscape at the time. I did not go back until netscape was open source and even then the suite was a unwanted POC. Firefox however was fresh airt at the time!
Well if you used windows 95. (IIRC bundling (beyond being on the plus pack or something with no requirement to install) occured at win 95 OSR2.5 (which was pretty much win 98 beyond a small bit of theming)(or maybe OSR2.5 occured after win98 release? can’t remember I would have been using win98 beta anyway)).
So basically what you are saying is it can be done. Imagine that. And based on your text the solutions are rather straightforward. Mozilla take a hint.
Geck,
You keep saying mozilla could do better but are never specific about what they should be doing to actually grow marketshare. It’s so easy to be an armchair activist but in actuality things are a longer shot than you care to admit. Let’s say we naively suggest it plays out the same way it did in the past, do you understand there were major causalities then? Netscape failed completely as a company. Would you be ok with that happening to mozilla? And who’s to say the benefactor this time would be someone you like? What if we get a 3 way market split between google/ms/apple? It could satisfy antitrust regulators and mozilla could remain non-viable just like before. So I ask you once again: what is your specific plan to grow mozilla’s marketshare? You steadfastly refuse to answer this but being able to answer it is central to mozlla’s future viability.
It’s exactly a rant as there’s not a single argument for Linux being even remotely “ready” for the desktop.
Here’s a page with rock solid arguments which unfortunately, despite being a decade old, hasn’t lost its relevance.
Artem S. Tashkinov,
On the contrary, I’d say most of that list is obsolete and/or doesn’t apply to most of us. It’s not so much a question of is it ready, clearly many of us are using it as a daily driver just fine. But a lot comes down to preferences and familiarity.
Obviously there are areas to improve on. The same is true of all operating systems including windows (as the author in your link clearly indicates in the preface “I want to make one thing crystal clear – Windows, in some regards, is even worse than Linux and it has its own share of critical problems….”).
IMHO our discussions should focus on constructive criticism rather than “mine’s better than yours” argumentation.
“Most of the list is obsolete” is quite a statement (or exaggeration), so I’ll dismiss your response entirely. The list is kept up to date.
“Areas to improve on” have stayed pretty much the same over the past 30 years. No API/ABI stability/compatibility, a ton of regressions, broken software.
Hardware support has improved a ton over the past two decades, that’s it. Everything else is not too much different from what it was back in 2000.
People are cheering DXVK/Proton as if it’s “good” for Linux while they are cheering the fact that Linux has lost any and all native titles and has basically become a full-fledged VM/translation layer for Win32.
Yeah, let’s celebrate it. It’s depressing to be honest.
Back in 2000 we had Loki and tons of native titles. In 2022 we have zero native AAA Linux games.
Artem S. Tashkinov,
Whatever floats your boat. I’m being honest though, he brings up esoteric things that would never occur to normal users. I’m not going to claim linux checks everyone’s boxes, but by the same token it is not reasonable for you to suggest or pretend that your list of checkboxes are important to everyone else.
It’s true that Windows has the most games, but honestly so what? If that’s your main criteria for choosing an OS then go with windows. Wine/Proton is just giving people more options, especially in cases where gaming is not the primary use case. I don’t think either of us should presume what’s best for others. Does having limtied native games make macos inferior? Maybe to you, but probably not for the majority of macos owners. Here’s the thing, everyone has different needs and preferences.
My criteria is an OS which works and has a ton of native software and the ability to run older software.
Linux continues not to work in far too many cases.
Linux has a laughable selection of native software (where are all the audio/video authoring tools? CAD software? etc. etc. etc.)
Linux has no native AAA games.
Good luck running older software. GTK1/KDE1/KDE2/Qt1/Qt2 based software? Dead, no option to run it for the average user. Xorg low-level software under Wayland e.g. xcalib? Outright doesn’t work. Old Linux games? Broken.
Linux fans are masters of finding ridiculous excuses (“You don’t need this”, “This doesn’t work, but you can do this”, “I can do it”, “This is not an issue because …”, “API/ABI compatibility doesn’t matter because …”). 25 years ago and in 2022 – it’s all the same.
The only thing Linux distros have excelled in are the people who year in year out continue to vindicate their constant atrocious semi-broken state. I’ve had it over 100 times already. It’s always the same. “Can a grandma use Linux” issue remains as relevant as ever. Sorry, pals, I’m out of this discussion.
Artem S. Tashkinov,
The linux repos are even easier and safer than windows software distribution. Of course the elephant in the room is that linux doesn’t have much commercial software, which is true, but not everyone considers this a con.
1) It’s not even true.
2) Outside of egotistical dick measuring contests, why does it matter if it’s “native” or not? If it runs and it makes people happy, then what’s the problem?
The answer is still yes, depending on what they need linux may be perfect. And as someone who provides tech support for windows users who are experiencing trouble with windows, I can’t help but notice there’s a double standard when judging other operating systems.
Linux may not be the first choice for large quantities of consumer-grade off-the-shelf software & crapware but it’s certainly king when it comes to (highly) customized software used across practically all business & industry. Whether we’re talking manufacturing, military, space exploration, mining, aut0motive, movies/tv, design, AI, medical, particle accelerators like LHC, etc etc etc etc etc…
If Linux vanished from existence, the world we live in would look vastly different and not for the better. Those beloved AAA video games would vanish right along with it too.
Not really. They went for length and tried to make their point by sheer volume of complaints. A lot of those are outdated, and or highlight problems that all operating systems currently have ( Ie printers suck, they all do on every platform). Driver issues, inconsistancies in guis.
There are also a ton of x windows complaints, with the claim that its the dominant composing engine . Its not hasn’t been for years. Every one agrees it sucks.
Wayland complaints that also apply to windows. It screws up on multiple monitors I don’t know maybe every other day. I know probably a driver issue with intel.
Boot issues, yeah buddy Have I got those on windows. No debugging is really possible since windows 98.
Every operating system sucks for some people with some hardware and use cases. They all have flaws and bright spots. Listing all the bad things out is I don’t know kind of a waste of time.
IMHO, its not really honest without a discussion of the bright points of the OS. There are a lot of great things about linux on a desktop that windows is really missing.
In the end all i see is a bunch of half-assed excuses. If people would be forced to start using GNU/Linux on desktop. Starting today. They would manage just fine. As they don’t have to do that. They rather complain on how hard it is for them. Whining on why they can’t. Repeating BS. The same thing as when it comes to saving the environment. Lets save it. Just as long as i don’t have to change my ways. One thing that the list does good is it says Windows is just as bad. Or worse. Hence even from this list point of view. There really shouldn’t be any excuses. And yet there are. Excuses on top of more excuses. Hence read my list. It has a single item on it. Stop making lame excuses. And it will work just fine.
They would manage just fine.
You’re lying through your teeth. I frequent numerous Linux forums where people constantly report basic bloody issues like “My Linux is stuck on GRUB prompt”, “My Linux doesn’t get into my graphical session and looks stuck”, etc. etc. etc.
Just as of today!
This is so effing ridiculous it’s just cringe.
Wouldn’t recommend linux for the desktop unless you like to tinker. Do grandmas like to tinker with computers?
Why would a grandma need to tinker with anything just to click a browser or email icon on a desktop? Your comment seems like something you’re regurgitating from some other uninformed regurgitated post.
Grandmas belong in the kitchen, not online.
“You’re lying through your teeth. I frequent numerous Linux forums where people constantly report basic bloody issues like “My Linux is stuck on GRUB prompt”, “My Linux doesn’t get into my graphical session and looks stuck”, etc. etc. etc”
Ha, I’ve had Windows drop out to a ‘NTLDR is missing’ easily as often as I’ve ever had ended up at a grub prompt. But the main difference is you can fix a grub issue… when the NTLDR is missing, there’s a very good chance you’re going to end up reinstalling Windows.
NTLDR was last used in Windows XP and sorry to break it to you but if you didn’t dual boot or tinkered with partitions it never failed.
Get your arguments right.
Right, because nobody has issues with the love of your life, Windows. Just these past few days, a whole bunch of updates just… Refuse to install for me. The error message isn’t helpful, but it’s clearly a common problem judging by search results. There’s a thriving market of utilities to provide basic features to Windows users that should be part of Windows itself. There ain’t even a goddamn package manager! Windows users have to manually hunt around the web for each and every individual application they use, littering the system with random files and app updaters running in the background and inviting all kinds of shady apps and malware onto their systems. Windows users can’t even switch GPUs without using DDU, and Windows Update regularly fucks up people’s systems by forcefully installing worse drivers than the user him or herself installed. They even have to deal with two different Program Files folders, and applications throwing darts at the file system to see where they’re going to store user files this time. Then there’s Windows Modern Standby which is a complete and utter clusterfuck that’s destroying battery life (LTT has rightfully started telling people NOT to buy Windows laptops because of it). Then there’s the 3427 different user interfaces Microsoft layered on top of Windows, from Windows 3x UIs to whatever the fuck they’re shipping this week. And we haven’t even mentioned the intricate surveillance Windows does of everything you do. And the ads!
I could go on for hours.
Dude, stop smoking whatever Redmond is sending you.
Thom Holwerda,
There are ways to restore the S3 sleep mode, but some MS updates have broken this in the past and there do seem to be tons of users seeking help with sleep issues.
https://www.minitool.com/news/modern-standby.html
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/how-to-disable-modern-standby-in-windows-10-may/db950560-33da-4a90-8340-b1f181f5efe6
I received a corporate laptop running windows and I noticed this too. The laptop would stay warm & consume power when I expected it to be asleep. I dealt with it by getting into the habit of doing a full shutdown rather than leaving windows to toss and turn and kill the battery.
I disapprove of this too.
I can respect those who feel differently and prefer to use windows themselves, that’s great but I feel it’s only fair for respect to be given in all directions. I’m tired of operating system topics being mired in religious zealotry. Why is this us-vs-them mentality even a thing with computer operating systems? It makes no sense to me. I’ll say one thing about it though, it does generate a ton of clicks & posts, haha. Unfortunately though it produces more flame wars than interesting discourse.
… and if only Windows produced meaningful logs, almost everything you mention would be easier (not easy, easier) to solve…
@Artem S. Tashkinov
You see how deep this myth is embedded. You now call people liars. People suggesting you can play games on GNU/Linux just fine and imagine that. You can print too. Just because somebody is having some random issue with GNU/Linux on desktop. And at the same time ignoring a gazillion reports from issues Windows users are having. That surely doesn’t play a role. As at least they are being honest. When they say Windows just works for them. Everything. Anyway. Hence a list on the internet claiming on how this are some oppressing issues preventing GNU/Linux adoption on desktop. And only after all items from that list get fixed. Only then we should make another list and move to 2%? If you will read that list again. At the beginning it says Windows is just as bad or worse. And at the end it says consider installing Linux. To move away from Windows. GNU/Linux on desktop is ready for years now. What is preventing adoption is Windows monopoly and abuse that comes with it. Appealing to do the right thing hence won’t help. It more or less never does when it comes to monopolies. Intervention will be needed. Something like when you buy a new PC. You will first need to chose the operating system. And specs, terms of use and prices for installing that system to be listed. For consumer to opt-in and chose the option after. Being Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, Windows …
“it still gets ridiculed by users of platforms that still have to manually install drivers and update applications by hand”
Now this is just showing that you haven’t used Windows in a decade. My last GPU didn’t even come with a driver, just put it in, start up the PC, and Windows update will automatically download it. Every internet facing application that actually needs updated, automatically updates anyway. Does 7zip need automatic updating, notepad? No they don’t. obsessing over updating every piece of software on the machine says more about the user than the software.
dark2,
I realize this is completely tangential to the discussion, but theoretically software like 7zip or notepad could have a critical privilege escalation vulnerability such that updating urgently would be highly recommended. This is a common problem with languages that don’t protect from buffer overflows.
But this requires 2 additional steps: 1: Downloading and opening suspicious files, 2 having no antivirus, even in a time when ad supported free ones are available. Even Linux is facing more virus and malware challenges now that servers are seen as potential bitcoin miners with someone else paying for electricity.
dark2,
Yes, but it’s still a path to exploitation and most people don’t consider merely “opening a zip file” to have the same risks as actually running programs within it.
It’s not hard to defeat AV software though. If you write your own malware, chances are it will work until it becomes popular enough for the AV firms to pick it up and add to their databases.
I don’t know why people would ever think that any operating systems are impervious to malware. They’ve all been targeted for decades (linux/mac/windows). As an admin I see it all the time. On linux servers for example, generally an attacker uses a zero day exploit of wordpress, oscommerce, etc to install a botnet payload. If you’re in the hosting business, then chances are extremely high that you’ve got customers running unmanaged vulnerable software. It wouldn’t matter if they were running windows/macos/linux/whatever, it just comes with the territory especially when running non-updated software.
@dark2
On GNU/Linux on desktop my last GPU just worked. Without me needing internet access to download the driver.
Nobody cares what GNU/Linux is doing on servers and what Android is doing on mobile. On desktops and laptops, the ecosystem is on Windows and MacOS. Repeat after me: Ecosystem.
For example, with Windows I know my apps will work and my Nvidia card will be well-supported. You see, the OS is just a layer, it’s useless by itself without my premium apps and hardware. So, I will keep ridiculing users who try to convince themselves that an OS without an ecosystem can stand in the market. Or that it’s somehow worth migrating to because of a couple of issues on the two major OSes.
SteamOS is the exception, and that’s because it tries to support the Windows ecosystem of apps and has a supported ecosystem of hardware around it. Take note.
You`re correct, Sir!
E C O S Y S T E M! Let me write it again: E C O S Y S T E M!
That`s why Windows Mobile has won with Android. Nobody care about this funny Linux toys. E C O S Y S T E M show us what is important. I use Windows on my PC and on my phone. I know that everything is cool and works.
E C O S Y S T E M FTW!
Uhhh I hate to break it to you but Android? Is a proprietary OS controlled by Mama Google and repeat after me IS NO DIFFERENT THAN WINDOWS in that regard, full stop. want proof? can you install any OS you want on 99.99% of Android phones out there? Hell can you remove the Google Spyware out of 99.99% of phones out there? No? I rest my case.
I have to LMAO at the Linux fanboys as they got royally scammed by big mama Google who made their OS just as locked down and proprietary as anything out of Redmond but by simply saying “Don’t Be Evil” and pretending to give a flying f*ck about Linux they get praise from the Linux community.
Its the scam of the century and as the mountains of E-Waste rise to the sky high enough to choke Heaven itself (which if it was an ACTUAL Open Source OS it wouldn’t be an issue as you could simply install a lighter weight distro on those phones and tablets, and they would still have use) the fanboys will continue to cheer while Google continues to spy on them and laugh their ass off.
Was this comment to me? If so, why? I`ve wrote about Windows Mobile and escosystem that let Microsoft win with competition on mobile.
But to the alternative OSes – yes, you can on many phones, that`s why alternative roms exist. And deinstalling Google Spyware – I guess you can but I think that not many people want it, since many other apps depend on them. Just don`t ask my how to to do it – google for it.
Let me remind you that Windows Mobile was a mainstream OS in the pre-iPhone era while the various Linux phones of the day didn’t even register as statistical noise. Why? Due to its ecosystem.
But you see, the iPhone with its new finger-driven UI and excellent for-the-day mobile browser reset the market for touchscreen smartphones, essentially opening the segment to many more people than before, and Windows Mobile failed to adapt to the new UI paradigm, or even get a decent mobile browser that wasn’t stuck in 2003. Ballmer-era Microsoft incompetence at its finest. Don’t get me wrong, it’s probably for the best, since Android is a better OS all around (for example, installed apps can’t edit the settings and binaries of other apps, nor can they ask for root, and they need permission from the user to access things such as the user’s file storage and microphone), but let’s not pretend that Windows Mobile wasn’t a big OS among the stylus-driven touchscreen smartphones of the day and surrounded by a huge app ecosystem.
And all this change was done by Apple, not Linux phones of the era.
Linux is used by everyone the same way Mac users use FreeBSD while using MacOS. If Mac users use MacOS and only the select few know how to use the underlying FreeBSD, do we still say that all Mac users use FreeBSD? I don’t think it’s a good description of most Mac users to say they use FreeBSD because if you give them another computer with FreeBSD on it they won’t know how to use it. Linux itself doesn’t get ridiculed because we don’t ridicule the nuts and bolts of some constructed device for only being there. Linux users who keep waiting for Linux on the desktop, well, they deserve to be ridiculed.
The most popular operating system in the world for:
a) Servers (including supercomputers) where it doesn’t matter that the GUI is bad, video/audio is bad, the scheduler is bad, power management is bad and the range of apps is bad.
b) Smartphones; if and only if you radically customize the kernel to make it suck less and then replace the entire user-space because you’re making $$ on spyware/spam and locking people into proprietary services and have no reason to care how awful the OS is even after you replace all the worst stuff.
c) Some embedded systems where the whole OS is irrelevant as long as it can run some low performance python code on top.
d) One games console, because “Wine + Linux” is cheaper than paying Microsoft to play Windows games.
e) NOT DESKTOP; where 97.23% of people (based on https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide ) would rather pay Microsoft or Apple to avoid the high cost of a “free” OS; but even then it’s only if you’re generous/lazy enough to assume “one OS” is equivalent to 200+ pointlessly different operating systems/distros that are trying their hardest to prove the correctness of “divided we fall”.
Based.
Just look at the amount of list items on where you say Linux is more popular. Compare that to a single item where it is not. I feel it’s should be safe to assume the author of the mentioned line was correct.
Sure; the author of the line is technically correct; but when the line is a response to an article about Linux on the desktop it’s also a silly and irrelevant. It’s like saying “lots of people have cars” in response to someone saying “cars will never replace boats”.
Worse; for markets where it is used, the reason it’s used never has anything to do with the OS being good – it’s always development time/cost combined with not having much reason to care that most of the OS is shit.
Of course within the next 5 years or so Linux will probably be replaced by Fuchsia on smartphones (and chromebooks).
Brendan,
Linux/windows/macos…the truth is they’re all shit in various ways. The main advantage for the wintel desktop monopoly has been its lion’s share of applications, something that didn’t carry over to windows on servers/embeded/mobile/etc.
We’ll have to see what happens and whether it’s good or not. Despite the dominant markethshare, linux has many of us grumbling about execution on mobile. IMHO mobile & ARM have been a major continuing disappointment for FOSS users. The same disregard for the community that microsoft was guilty of applies to the linux kernel too. After years of hardship for FOSS on mobile they’ve made practically no progress in evolving to benefit the community, especially with ABIs that could decouple proprietary drivers from the rest of the kernel.
I know that Geck keeps placing responsibility on manufacturers, but after decades in this stalemate, it’s become a dead end argument – one that is unlikely to resolve itself without action from ourselves no matter how many more decades we wait. Personally I’ve waited long enough and since linux leadership is evidentially not going to fix this, I welcome more FOSS competition to see if we can’t get a better solution from a new source (*).
* Honestly I have many reservations about google’s motives with Fuchsia, but 1) I’ll withhold judgment until I see it for what it is, 2) only a corporate juggernaut like google has enough influence to reshape a mature market. As much as I’d prefer an independent grass roots alternative, I don’t think it’s a realistic option, at least not for mainstream devices.
I’m with the author on this topic. People sometimes expect Linux to beat Windows in its own game – desktop PC OS, forgetting Windows is a platform. It is not possible to replace an entrenched platform (not without regulatory measures) but it is entirely possible to create a new platform, and let the old one fade into obscurity. With web and mobile OSes this process is well advanced already.
Being a platform has its drawbacks too. For example, it is not possible for Windows to change a CPU architecture (not without 100% transparent emulation) or to support non-desktop applications. This creates a lot of niches where alternative OSes thrive: embedded systems, servers, virtualized environments, engineering workstations, custom systems like thin clients, Steam Deck etc. Linux CAD market alone is worth hundreds of billion of dollars and vendors are not even targeting anything fancy.
Gone are times when many online services required proprietary Windows applications or at least IE6. That was a real pain in early 00’s. They have all either moved to other platforms (web, mobile apps) or are well supported natively. In practice, compatibility issues are rare and, with some care, can be avoided completely. Same thing with hardware, I don’t recall any problems in the last decade (to be fair, I buy/build my hardware for Linux but why wouldn’t I, that’s the only OS I use).
Overall, the glass may still not be full but what is in it is sufficient and it certainly tastes a lot better.
I really don´t understand why people get triggered by this. Why would I care about what other people think about the OS I use? As long as it is actively developed and fits my use cases (at least to a large extent), I´m happy.
I use Linux, OSX, Windows, and Haiku (all for different tasks and reasons), and all of these OS are ridiculed by someone on the internet somewhere. Do I care about that? Short answer: No!
Let´s all just enjoy the OSes we love, or talk about things that are frustrating about them, that´s OK too. But worrying that not all people are fond of Linux? That´s a waste of time.
DigitalHippie,
+1!
Some people get so triggered by other opinions. It’s hard to comprehend why so many people are thin skinned about it.
As a linux user, I have no feeling of superiority over windows or mac users. However some people seem determined to treat operating systems as dogma no matter what, It doesn’t matter if it’s linux/mac/windows/whatever, it smacks of superiority complex.
The world has become a place where you’re expected to oppose whatever `the other guy` likes/uses/thinks/feels because decency, courtesy, and mutual respect is too submissive & soft. BUT, all is not lost. There are still people, like me, who absolutely could not give a single sh*t about which OS you’ve chosen to use.
I’m not sure for any general purpose developer that any one OS can suffice, I get it if you are in a niche sector, but for general purpose cross platform development the best tools are spread across multiple platforms.
Seriously, I’m using KDE on a daily basis since version 2.0, in parallel to Windows (on another computer), both at work and at home. And in my case I think that Linux as a desktop environment is ready since about the 4.2 release of KDE, and around the same time for other desktop enviroments. I’ve even installed a KDE+Linux machine for my father, who was happier with it that with the Windows machine it replaced… (he was a bit of an anti-Microsoft person anyway…)
“The most popular operating system in the world by a huge margin”
On servers, where you don’t care about 4K graphics, X11, high-DPI displays, power management or Bluetooth (among other stuff).
On embedded systems, where you don’t care about 4K graphics, X11, high-DPI displays, power management or Bluetooth (among other stuff).
On smartphones, where you don’t care about 4K graphics, X11, high-DPI displays, power management or Bluetooth (among other stuff).
Just not on desktops, where people care about, you know, power management, Bluetooth and having graphics stuff work out of the box instead of requiring you to grow a neckbeard.
Then again you can have GNU/Linux on desktop with good power management, Bluetooth and having graphic stuff work out of the box. And lets just pretend then. And ignore all that.
You forgot to mention all those routers and switches, that make the internet happen. Every single person who uses the internet, uses Linux this way. The internet would not happen the way we know it today, if Linux were not invented.
Linux on the desktop is still not a big serious thing. But the reason is simple: nobody have put the kind of work and resources into making Linux on the desktop big as has been put into things like Windows, macOS, ChromeOS (yes, Linux), Android (yes, also Linux). If somebody *did* it absolutely could become big, but the commercial incentive simply haven’t been there. But maybe that’s a good thing?
But that’s only if we’re measuring mainstream success. If we measure it by being able to have a open source desktop environment for a long time. Just because it’s not on the level of other desktop OS doesn’t mean it’s a failure. And it‘s small size and partly hobbyist nature means it can do things mainstream OS will simply never do.
Sincerely, mac user who‘s very impressed with Linux on the desktop and happy it exists.
Try it then yourself. Try to write all the code and produce an operating system such as Debian with all packaged software in the repositories and everything else that comes with it. Then give an assessment on how much work have you put into it. And if Windows, macOS, ChromeOS, Android really did that much more.
I think it probably was more, but that only because there’s just more money (i.e. paid workers) put into those mainstream operating systems vs Linux on desktop. Apple, Microsoft and Google are literally some of the biggest companies in the world. The amount of resources and money it takes to make something like that is incredible (and even with that they all struggle in various areas).
As far as individual effort is concerned, Linux on the desktop is extremely impressive. I’m sure people working on those projects works really hard! That doesn’t change the fact that there just isn’t that much money put into linux on the desktop in comparison.
Another good comparison point is actually Linux as a server platform, which *does* get enormous amounts of money and resources funneled into it, which expected results.
As for *why* Linux hasn’t gotten those kind of resources put into it, it’s probably because nobody have managed to make a bussiness incentive for it. If somebody found that I bet Linux on the desktop could seriously compete with the others.
That being said, in the meantime we get to have a Linux on the desktop that because of being niche, while not competing with other desktops in the mainstream, has some really unique things that the mainstream ones will never have. That‘s really cool too.
Happy new year. This was such an appropriate discussion for the end of the year. It had such 90s vibe to it. Kids in 2022 on the other hand more or less wanted Steam Deck for Christmas. On how time flies and things change. And stay the same.
Kids in 2022 wanted Steam Deck for Christmas? I hope that’s a troll attempt because it’s hard to believe you don’t know how silly that sounds. You know who probably did want a Steam Deck though? Middle-aged men who think that B/III/indie games are the future of gaming.
And middle-aged people don’t have kids? And middle-aged people won’t let the kids to play games on Steam Deck? And kids pay for Windows and games on Windows? As for the “Indy” remark. I already said this thread has such a 90s feel to it. When i guess KFC was still a thing.
I’m not sure why you think middle-aged men who think a Steam Deck is cool translates to kids thinking the same and putting it at the top of the Christmas list. It sounds like you really badly want Steam Deck to be a thing, which is totally fine. You’ll just have to settle with only a very niche slice of the adult male population feeling the same. You know the ones – they also thought Steam Machines (R.I.P.) were the new hotness that everyone wanted too.
You must admit, though. The KFC in-joke was a good one. As for the Steam Deck. It’s already a rather successful product and i am sure that more is to come. That is in regards to gaming on GNU/Linux in general. Some of you will hence just have to cope with that. Games really do run on GNU/Linux. Imagine that. All the years we were told to believe otherwise. On how GNU/Linux can run the world but it can’t run a video game. On how you need to use Windows for games. And all that BS.
“Kids in 2022 wanted Steam Deck for Christmas?”
…yes? My 10 year old has been begging for a Steam Deck for months. And not because of me, I’m completely uninterested in it.
The Steam Deck is like the incredibly popular Nintendo Switch but plays all of the games he loves on Steam.
I’m sure there’s a 10 year old somewhere that loves eating peas too. There are exceptions to every rule and apparently you’re the parent of one.
The year of desktop Linux for me, was 2016. That was the year that Linux were finally ready for my personal need’s, and as Win7 EOL were announced around that time. Then it was the year that I finally switched fully to Linux on my daily driver. I have never regretted my switch.
That said. I did start to learn Linux many years before. First time I installed Linux and gave it a go, was after a Unix course, and when asking around if Unix were cheap to obtain in one way or another, then people recommended me to give Linux a try. Learning Linux from 1995 to 2016 were well invested for me.
Regarding the article. Then it still seems strange to me, that people are making fun of Linux. At the same time they rave about Android. Like what? But it always turn out, that they have no knowledge of computers at all, other than more or less how to start a game or word processor on Windows.
How funny. Have read all the comments. I’m not going to engage here – I’ve been and done that for years. Hats off to Geck on defence.
Thom will be pleased this article was posted before the end of the year so it rockets up the list for “most active/commented article of 2022”.
As a Linux household for 18 years now, I’m more interested in what Haiku is up to for fun/hobby.