The true reason for this article is to point out some sensitive points and to start a discussion. Hopefully, this discussion will produce some useful outcome and if some people in the Linux community are willing to listen to them, I would already be very enthusiastic. Let’s start, shall we?
First of all, this document is a comment and at the same time an addition to many articles that have recently been posted on the internet concerning the fact if Linux is ready (or not) to face the desktop and if it is ready, why it is still lacking behind. This articles formulates certain ideas. You either agree with them or you don’t. However, this is of no importance. The true reason for this article is to point out some sensitive points and to start a discussion. Hopefully, this discussion will produce some useful outcome and if some people in the Linux community are willing to listen to them, I would already be very enthusiastic. Let’s start, shall we?
Linux has potential, there is no denying that. The success of a distribution like Ubuntu is not something that has gone unnoticed. Out of nowhere, this distribution managed to make it to one of the most popular distros in a couple of months. The innovations are there too. Enlightenment, Luminocity and many more are wonderful technologies that improve the Linux experience like never before. Finally, the bling is finding it’s way towards Linux. Furthermore, there are a lot of companies who are beginning to offer some very decent support for Linux. Even graphics drivers seem to have matured. NVidia has been out there for a long time offering support for the Linux community and the speed of their drivers under Linux are better than those of the drivers under Windows.
Yet, with all these wonderful assets, Linux does not manage to become commonplace in the average household. Mind you, I’m not talking about servers or geeks here. Nor am I talking about the family of some geek. Very often, you will find that his parents, his grandparents and a lot more of his relatives use Linux because he single-handedly installs, updates and manages them. No, I’m talking about the average human being, with little to no computer experience. Why is it that he cannot get the hang of Linux on the desktop?
Well, for some reason, the largest amount of the Linux community still believes that people actually intend to struggle their way through a hefty manual to get the thing installed and configured as they wish. Strange, especially when you see how successful an operating system like OS X is becoming, simply because this operating system is so simplistic and easy to use, even for a complete newbie, that it gives the user a very powerful feeling.
And for some reason, the entire Linux community seems to hide themselves behind the idea that one needs to “grow into” a distro. One should apply for leave for a month before being able to actually getting used to his or her distro of choice. Some may find this absurd, and it is, but this is actually advice people have given me in the past. A lot of you will also agree that if you do want to get acquainted with Linux, you should do it like this, one does need to grow into it and that’s where the shoe pinches. People do not like to be told to grow into something, unless it is worth it. And Linux simply is not worth the trouble.
But then, why is it that operating systems like OS X and Windows are so much more suited for end users? One needs to look beyond his own nose to see why this actually is. If you only focus on the end-users, this is essentially a computer-illiterate, it is hard to see why Windows would be any better than Linux. They both have a start menu, they both have a taskbar, they both have a traybar and I could go on summing things up that are exactly the same for most users. If a user is unable to operate a mouse and point and click on an icon, then he won’t be capable to do a single thing with a computer nowadays. If he can, then he can do all he wants, as long as the computer has already been configured and all his favourite apps are to be found on the desktop.
At this point, you should start to see where I am taking you. Measuring how good an operating system is for an end-user is not a thing someone can measure by looking at how well an end-users can point and click the icons on both systems. What is important, is to see how many people are around that can actually configure the operating system to the needs of this end user. Furthermore, I am once again not talking about the geeks here. Once a person attains a certain level of computer knowledge, he will be held back to do simple things like configuring a computer for a computer illiterate. Believe me, there is nothing so tiresome as having to configure a computer for someone who is a true computer illiterate.
So, one needs a broad base of people who can do simple administrative tasks, like installing software and configuring the system, yet not someone who works in a computer store as a computer technician. The first group, the illiterates, can’t do jobs like these. The latter have done it too many times in the past, and have outgrown the phase in which they found such endeavours to be challenging.
If we look back at Windows, we see how this operating system has a huge base as we want it. The illiterates working with Windows are numerous, but it is safe to say that every five illiterates are backed by at least one person who can configure the machine more or less as they would like. Let us from now on call these people disciples. If these disciples need help, they can always fall back on the geeks, who are also numerous for Windows.
The reason why Windows has such a neat distribution of this knowledge pyramid as I will call it from now on, is because of historical reasons. It has nothing to do with a better system than the others on the market. It has to do with power, and widespread usage. You may love this, you may hate this, you may love to hate this, but the fact remains. Windows is powerful, and it will remain so for a long time to come. If you believe otherwise, you are most likely one of those stubborn geeks who has not yet found the virtue of self-criticism. Please, for once and for all, stop believing you and only you are right, because you are not.
Moving to OS X, we come across a system who has earned every bit of respect thanks to their great efforts. If you have ever worked with OS X, you know what I mean. For those who don’t, I’m talking about simplicity. Installing a program on OS X is nothing more than dragging and dropping the folder where you want it. In fact, OS X even hides the fact that it is a folder, and it simply appears to be the program. Drag the icon of the program to where you want it, and you are ready to rock and roll. Same goes for the control panel. This is much like in Windows a central place where you can make some of the most important adjustments.
Final thing to look at when it comes to installing software, is how different sources interact. This is, when you install from a file from your computer or from a CD, how much difference does it make? As for Windows, thanks to autoplay, there hardly is any difference for the average user. For OS X, it is even better, since every install program automatically behaves as if it is actually a CD. This further increases the consistency of performing an installation.
We not only need to look at how easy it is to install a program or to set some options, but we also need to look at how consistent this is with earlier versions. Here, Windows has done a great job. From Windows 95 and onwards, it should be a breeze to configure the system as you want. While not looking as lovely on one version as on the other, the functionality is to be found at about the same place, and one can rather quickly set everything to his preferences. The same goes for OS X. This is, once again, mainly thanks to Apple itself. Apple is constantly pushing people to use the latest and greatest, and with success. This saves Apple quite some money on support costs, and Apple has wisely used this money to promote people to switch even faster. One has to admit that a family license of OS X (which allows you to install OS X on 3 computers) sounds a lot more attractive than Windows XP Home edition that you can install on a single computer. Oh, and yeah, they both sell for about the same price.
Too bad for Linux, but it is time to evaluate them too. Linux has some share in the end user market, about none when it comes to the disciples and way too many geeks. This is caused by, again, numerous factors. Linux has outgrown the hobby stage, and a lot of geeks had a hand in this. However, as popularity grows, the other two groups should have started building them up themselves and grow into a nice looking knowledge pyramid. But for Linux, this has not happened. Why?
Linux has a learning curve, that is more than just steep. Linux is not something that one learns to configure after a couple of hours of clicking around. Furthermore, where the other two OSes could fall back on a large group of geeks who are more than willing to help, it seems like Linux suffers from a so-called uber-geek effect. When one needs to simply know how to install a driver, and one is offered a solution that resembles more the activation of a nuclear rocket, it is not so hard to understand why the disciples are so thinly spread amongst Linux users. If they ask for more advise, it is not so rare that they get an answer that is full of disbelief and contempt. I know a lot who have tried to make the move to Linux, who struggled their way towards becoming a disciple, but who have failed. Not because they didn’t try. Most of them even tried too hard. No, Linux is open software with open documentation. So you just try to struggle your way trough the sometimes way too complex documentation and please, leave the geeks alone. They are evangelising Linux as “almost” ready for the desktop. So please, do not disturb them. Maybe later. But not now.
When it comes to consistency, I’m afraid to express my opinion. Simply because I know that a lot of Linux geeks will simply activate their defences again and tell me that Linux, well, isn’t Linux. Linux consists of many different OSes where every OS has his own set of rules and own set of features. However, as soon as it fits them, they will once again join forces again and come out as Linux. The Big One. Well, for end users and disciples, Linux is Linux. Debian, Suse, Gentoo, Ubuntu, Mandrake, Fedora, Vector Linux and so on, they are all just different flavours much like Windows 95 and Windows XP. And once again, I agree with them. There is just too little of a difference to actually say they are all different OSes instead of just flavours of Linux.
Getting a disciple to work with a single distro is certainly doable. Linux has some great ideas, and if one only focuses on one distro, things look great. However, even two distros can make a world of difference to a disciple. I think it doesn’t need clarification that getting something installed in Mandrake does not mean you will be able to do the same thing in Fedora. Or Debian. Consistency is the greatest deficiency of Linux. Simple because it is absent. And this is, sadly enough, present in every aspect of Linux. Think about Gnome. Think about KDE. Think about repositories. Think about installation packages. Think about every single aspect of Linux, and you are confronted with an OS that seems to be schizophrenic. For some unclear reason, Linux users are in constant conflict with themselves, trying to outperform the others and building a better copy of what they are making. Not only does this waste most valuable time, it also makes that Linux has too little money to do something (however, combined, Linux would be quite wealthy) and that the good programmers are spread out over projects that are making exactly the same thing.
For some reason, the Linux community simply doesn’t understand what Caesar was saying when he invented the very successful strategy of “Divide and Conquer”; this does not mean that one needs to split up his own troops, but this means that the troops of the enemy should be divided, so that your mighty large army can come and squash those silly small troops. Right now, Linux is nothing more than a bunch of silly small troops. I am not the only one pointing this out, and attempts have been made to make this possible. However, they were all in vain. Yet, people are more than ever saying that Linux should unite. And these aren’t any longer only small fish, but even an executive of Redhat has recently declared that Linux should unite. And he is right.
Linux also needs to leave behind their ubergeek image. Configuration panels are there for disciples, not the geeks. So don’t confront them with options that they would never set. Simply because as soon as one knows what the option is for, one would already have reached such a high level of experience with this operating system that one would be able to simply alter the desired files directly. So keep it simple and stupid.
Innovation is another thing that Linux lags. Linux is a copy of a lot of other things, all pieced together. This is not immediately something bad. However, it needs to be done right. When you copy, you need to innovate, or at least, make a good copy. It is no use to reinvent the wheel, so don’t do it. But don’t copy it and think that a square wheel will do the job as well. For example, look at Abiword, KOffice and OpenOffice. If you throw them all together, you would end up with a more than wonderful package. Leave them as they are now, and they all represent both a small amount of good value and a huge bunch of real annoyances. To tell you the truth, Word will remain my favourite editor for quite some time (oh, and before you start to doubt my credibility, I’m using Word on my trusty iBook running OS X Panther). So please, now is the time to unite. Well, actually, it was yesterday, but you all seemed to have missed the train.
Some other huge things where Linux lags behind is the fact that they have the urge to bundle every possible application and that they are terrible at localising their software. There’s nothing like a distro like Ubuntu. It is small, easy to install and without too many options to set. No filling up your hard disk with useless programs, but most of them are simply necessary programs of a very high quality. This should become the standard for Linux, however, due to the broad range of different ways to install software under Linux, this is not yet truly achievable. The only exception is when you offer a large website with installation packages or when you offer a central repository. In both cases, these things cost a lot of money to maintain.
The other deficiency that Linux has, is even more important than the one I just stated. It is their localisation. Getting Linux to work in English is no big deal, however, trying out other languages is a huge challenge. For example, go ahead and try to get it all running in Dutch. Dutch is no small language, with over 30 million people who have it as their native tongue. Yet, getting a version of Linux that is in Dutch is harder than ever. Not often you are confronted with bad translations, or, even worse, half translations. When it comes to trusting an operating system, I can tell you that there is no trusting a system that can’t even get the translations right. Therefore, why not move to the Apple way of doing things, and make every program de-facto multi-lingual? Truly, Linux lags way behind here. Windows works like a charm, OS X does it even better (allowing two users on the same computer to operate in different languages), but Linux, well, it can zijn better. (and no, the last part of this phrase does not include a clerical error. It is the Linux way of saying things in other languages).
It’s is somewhat funny to see that an operating system with such a high potential as Linux suffers so greatly from tearing itself apart. Face it, why oh why do we have for example KDE and Gnome? While this is not so terrible, it is terrible that every desktop has his own set of software of which the most of them are just copies of one another. Only, they have been designed without working together and once again most valuable time has gone to waste in building two suites of applications who do the same thing.
Lastly, I would once again encourage those who evangelise Linux to start using self-criticism. To tell you the truth, Linux has not made any advancements when you compare it to Windows. Windows has gone forward with leaps and bounds towards becoming a secure and productive system. Linux hasn’t made such advancements. Linux has only made some small steps, and there can only be hope that one day, Linux will actually start to make some leaps. Windows is a lot better than Linux because in the past, Windows has learned from their mistakes. Linux hasn’t. And OS X, well, they play in their own league.
Let me once again remind you that this article only holds a very slim amount of reasons for Linux not being successful on the desktop. Other articles will most certainly pop out other reasons and some other articles will be very correct. I do hope that I have started a good discussion with this article and that I, in a limited manner, provide a general solution to the problem. However, as I said, I’m only pointing out a very limited amount of possible reasons, so please, read other articles who are to be found almost anywhere and try to learn from them too.
About the author:
Kim Bauters is a 20 year old student in applied computer science with special iinterestin automation, artifical intelligence, operating systems and compression.
If you would like to see your thoughts or experiences with technology published, please consider writing an article for OSNews.
> get the fuck out of my face
You should increase your rhetorical skills if you want to deal with us here budd… Look at your users page. You managed to write 5 comments where 1 of them already got modded down.
Autopackage has nothing to do with Linux on the Desktop. It is a packaging solution like rpm or deb and goes far beyond the Desktop. The article here speaks about the Desktop and Desktop related issues.
Autopackage has nothing to do with Linux on the Desktop.
Of course not,it has to do with Win,Mac,OS/2,BeOS you name it , on the desktop.You idiot.
Note how my tone was changed.
[i]
You should increase your rhetorical skills if you want to deal with us here budd<i/>
I don’t have such skills (poor education and practice) and I deal with YOU here (like I would ever know who you are).That’s the difference between us.Moron (and snob,that’s from me to you,as bonus)
Budd, we do feel sorry for you. I think your parents do so as well.
Budd, we do feel sorry for you. I think your parents do so as well.
Thank you.I feel relieved now.But who the fuck is WE? Are you some sort of paranoic communist dictator watching same mirror daily and speak with himself just to hear his voice?You are still an idiot if you ask me.
The number one reason I always go back to Windows is that it runs better and is more responsive.
I have no problem installing Linux and its applications, I can live will trawling forums for obscure fixes to get it initially working.
But I can’t live with every distribution running at half the speed of XP. They all boot slower, programs load slower and worst of all the screen has terrible sluggish redraw. Nothing’s instant and snappy.
The one exception is Gentoo, but compiling stuff for hours really isn’t practical.
> I have no problem installing Linux and its
> applications, I can live will trawling forums for
> obscure fixes to get it initially working.
I assume you got introduced to the wrong Desktop by some friends or through magazines when you first met Linux. Most people I know are trying to get new people on Linux by promoting them GNOME and using arguments like “look how cool all is” and then, as you clearly seem to realized, after deeper investigations it turned out to be not as good as it was introduced to you or promoted to you.
Therefore I’d like to recommend you to give KDE 3.4.1 a try if, you feel home quite fast and you will even figure out that things are working much better and more reliable. After a while you realize how consistent things are and how polished everything looks and that things play together quite nicely. You even might come to the conclusion that it’s even far better than WindowsXP.
My personal experience is that people are right when they say “Linux is not ready for the Desktop” and I don’t blame them either, they only got introduced to the very wrong Desktop when they first met with Linux. Linux indeed is ready for the Desktop and was so some years ago, it only depends on the Desktop you are using. Personally I believe that all GNOME related Distributions (Luckely a few only) are not doing anything good to the overall Linux movement or Desktop acceptance.
When I am reading some of these comments from people that defend Linux, I cannot help but feel some pity for some of them.
I am not sure how many people realize that Linux is a philosophy of life to many people. These people will often be anti_Microsoft, anti-large corporations, anti-right, in short: power to the people!
These people will not be helped with common sense because they need much more to change their life-style.
I bought Suse Linux 9.1 and ran into many problems (could not install together with XP, bootloader issues, hardware recognition, etc.). That alone puts people off.
Also, KDE and Gnome are nowhere near XP and Mac. OpenOffice looks terrible, most software looks outdated, not to mention the file system labyrinth, software installation difficulty, kernel bugs, etc.
I am a big supporter of Linux, I also try to give feedback on forums, but, hey, let them get their act together! If they don’t unite, they will come to the level of XP long after Longhorn.
Kind regards,
Cheski
[email protected]
Very similar things can be said about Windows XP (or any other operating system)
“…I bought Suse Linux 9.1 and ran into many problems (could not install together with XP, bootloader issues, hardware recognition, etc.). That alone puts people off…”
I have run into many problems with installing Windows XP on many computers, including hardware recognition, and particularly not installing together with other operating systems. Problems that I did not have when installing several different Linux distributions on the same hardware.
“KDE and Gnome are nowhere near XP…”
Yes, in my experience KDE and Gnome are easier to use, more intuitive and far more stable. But this is just my experience. I do not claim that everyone has the same experience. To you Windows is superior, but not to everyone.
“…not to mention the file system labyrinth…”
You must be kidding here. Are you claiming that the file system on Windows XP is not also a blizzard of unknown files to the average user? In my experience Linux does a much better job of putting user’s files in their home directory than Windows does in My Documents directory.
“…software installation difficulty…”
It depends on the software. You represent all software installation in Linux with one statement. This is completely misrepresentative. There is no software installation on Windows XP that is as easy as using a package manager like URPMI or equivalent. Some software installation on Linux is easier than on Windows, some is more difficult. Similarly on Windows, not all software is installed by just double clicking on a setup.exe file.
“…kernel bugs, etc…”
Again, there are no bugs in the Windows kernel?
These generalizations about Linux by those that incessantly discredit it only prove that there are zealots for every operating system (the example above being a Windows zealot)
These people will often be anti_Microsoft, anti-large corporations, anti-right, in short: power to the people
Good start, making lots of red herring and making others look evil. Of course, saying that “these people” cherish their freedom, not like you who cherish being a slave, is simpler and would not put you in so good light.
These people will not be helped with common sense because they need much more to change their life-style
Most of them already changed from Windows to Linux, I don’t understand what you mean then …
I bought Suse Linux 9.1 and ran into many problems (could not install together with XP, bootloader issues, hardware recognition, etc.). That alone puts people off.
I (and most people I know) did (were forced to do) the same with Windows XP (Home), and to this day it is still impossible or VERY difficult to make Windows OS bootloader to work with other OS (like Linux).
Hardware recognition is a big problem too. BTW all these are installation issues and have nothing to do with the desktop. Hell, I still buy simple hardware (Creative Muvo N200 for example) were they put BIG warning in the doc, not to plug it before installing the driver, or it won’t work. So much for people talking about plug and play in Windows XP working. I plugged it in my Linux desktops, and in all of them, it appeared right there on the desktop, without installing anything.
Also, KDE and Gnome are nowhere near XP and Mac. OpenOffice looks terrible, most software looks outdated, not to mention the file system labyrinth, software installation difficulty, kernel bugs, etc
True, KDE and Gnome are way ahead of WinXP. To tell the truth, when WinXP came, it already ripped off some features of Gnome and KDE. Both DE have tremendously improved since 2001.
OOo looks terrible on some distros yes, as, by default, it mimics Windows interface. Which is quite hilarious, when you say after, that most software looks outdated (do you know there is a theming system on Linux DE ?). The Windows interface on Linux (and even on Windows) looks really outdated. Some (free) apps include a Gnome theme on Windows, they always look awesome. The KDE or Gnome themed OOo looks awesome too, compared to the default Windows look.
The file system is no labyrinth (except if you think /home is a labyrinth), users never explore it anyway.
Software installation is certainly not difficult (my clueless users use it without problem), and I don’t know what kernel bugs have to do here …
I am a big supporter of Linux, I also try to give feedback on forums
No you are not. A big supporter of Linux could not make such uninformed comments.
You are a big MS shill, I hope you are at least aware of it, or it would be alarming.
Ookaze
These people will often be anti_Microsoft, anti-large corporations, anti-right, in short: power to the people
Good start, making lots of red herring and making others look evil. Of course, saying that “these people” cherish their freedom, not like you who cherish being a slave, is simpler and would not put you in so good light.
These people will not be helped with common sense because they need much more to change their life-style
Most of them already changed from Windows to Linux, I don’t understand what you mean then …
I bought Suse Linux 9.1 and ran into many problems (could not install together with XP, bootloader issues, hardware recognition, etc.). That alone puts people off.
I (and most people I know) did (were forced to do) the same with Windows XP (Home), and to this day it is still impossible or VERY difficult to make Windows OS bootloader to work with other OS (like Linux).
Hardware recognition is a big problem too. BTW all these are installation issues and have nothing to do with the desktop. Hell, I still buy simple hardware (Creative Muvo N200 for example) were they put BIG warning in the doc, not to plug it before installing the driver, or it won’t work. So much for people talking about plug and play in Windows XP working. I plugged it in my Linux desktops, and in all of them, it appeared right there on the desktop, without installing anything.
Also, KDE and Gnome are nowhere near XP and Mac. OpenOffice looks terrible, most software looks outdated, not to mention the file system labyrinth, software installation difficulty, kernel bugs, etc
True, KDE and Gnome are way ahead of WinXP. To tell the truth, when WinXP came, it already ripped off some features of Gnome and KDE. Both DE have tremendously improved since 2001.
OOo looks terrible on some distros yes, as, by default, it mimics Windows interface. Which is quite hilarious, when you say after, that most software looks outdated (do you know there is a theming system on Linux DE ?). The Windows interface on Linux (and even on Windows) looks really outdated. Some (free) apps include a Gnome theme on Windows, they always look awesome. The KDE or Gnome themed OOo looks awesome too, compared to the default Windows look.
The file system is no labyrinth (except if you think /home is a labyrinth), users never explore it anyway.
Software installation is certainly not difficult (my clueless users use it without problem), and I don’t know what kernel bugs have to do here …
I am a big supporter of Linux, I also try to give feedback on forums
No you are not. A big supporter of Linux could not make such uninformed comments.
You are a big MS shill, I hope you are at least aware of it, or it would be alarming.
Ookaze
> most software looks outdated, not to mention the
> file system labyrinth, software installation
> difficulty, kernel bugs, etc.
That’s Windows you describe here.
IMHO there are Problems in linux.
#1 Drivers. ( Digital Photography, Camcoders, Scanners )
I bought a ZYX Digital camera, pluged it in. Nothing Happened.. I found out that XYZ software didn’t support that cammera.
I think that there must be an [LGPL?] interface of somewhat, so Binary drivers could link against the kernel, maybe run in userspace so thay would not easely crash the kernel.
#2 Package managment.
DEB, RPM, TGZ etc… 1. They are confusing. 2. They are not easy to use.
Again IMHO i think that all distros must use somewhat like autopackage for applications ( think Firefox, Gaim, OOo) so those aupopackages would be compatible across distros, and use internal packagers ( RMPS, DEBS) for the system ( think libs, command line utils etc…). So the distros would be somewhat devided into a SYSTEM ( normal package managment) and applications ( AUTOPACKAGE?)
P.S. yes apt-get smart or emerge are easier than the windows way of installing packages [esp. with things like synaptic and yum].
But tell that to an average joe user.
emerge =dev-libs/app-special-1.0.xyz.b9 ?
the way for the joe user – emerge bells-and-wisteles ( synaptic comes in here nicely — search by name and description, don’t know about smart or yum here…)
Personally i like the Gentoo way of packaging
#3 Applications.
People dont want to learn something new, they want their Photoshop, Their Dreamweaver, their Winamp.
YES, there are replacements for those apps, but 1. People are to stupid to read that GIMP is an Imaging Program and XMMS is just like WinAMP. They are used to old names. 2. I still can’t find a replacement for AutoCad with full dwg support etc… ( and no, those Intellicads that run under wine are not a replacement)
#4 Lack of education.
People in schools are using M$ software, so they DONT know how to use other software… again People don’t buy OS’ they buy computers with those OS’. ( and yes pre-installed computers with linux would help a lot). In the near ( optimistic ) future, when most of the schools will use FOSS software, things will change dramaticaly.
About me: Happy linux user since… err 1999 i think.
Current OS – Gentoo Linux 2005.0
Most significant Problem
#1 Choice on OS when buying a computer.
When buying a complete box, you’ll still have to search for boxes where you can buy the same hardware and choose the OS you like.
Whenever you go into a computer store, you get the feeling, that nothing else than MS (and maybe Apple) exists.
This will direct the market and consumers “choice” into a predefined direction.
I would prefere a market, where the consumer activly has to make a decision on his own about the OS.
IMHO there are Problems in linux.
Of course, but biggest problem is outside Linux.
#1 Drivers. ( Digital Photography, Camcoders, Scanners )
This is the major one, which is why Linux users like me want more marketshare. Actually, this is the ONLY reason I want more marketshare for Linux. I don’t give a damn taking over the world, I just want Linux drivers for every devices.
I think that there must be an [LGPL?] interface of somewhat, so Binary drivers could link against the kernel, maybe run in userspace so thay would not easely crash the kernel.
???? Binary drivers can already link against the kernel, they surely will not be run in userspace then (because they are linked to the kernel then), so they will crash the kernel if they are badly coded.
#2 Package managment.
DEB, RPM, TGZ etc… 1. They are confusing. 2. They are not easy to use.
BS. This is NOT a problem. Guess what, ZIP and EXE are a problem too, they are confusing and not easy to use. Most of my users still don’t grasp the concept of an archive, and most feared to launch exe files. They don’t anymore, as I migrated most of them to Linux.
Again IMHO i think that all distros must use somewhat like autopackage for applications ( think Firefox, Gaim, OOo)
Which of course is nonsense, since most distros already include these packages in their repository.
Autopackage would be usefull only for commercial packages or esoteric ones.
End user uses the default distro (un)install methods, which works, unlike in Windows where it doesn’t.
Evidence of that is the “reinstall app fix” so common on Windows, when an app does not work anymore, or apps that have to be installed in a certain order.
#3 Applications.
People dont want to learn something new, they want their Photoshop, Their Dreamweaver, their Winamp.
None of my users know about these app. They will NOT pay for or learn to use any of these apps.
I know them, but if one day they need one of them (my wife asked to learn the GIMP), it is readily available.
My users just click on files and the right app appears on the Linux desktop anyway.
The best is that the apps are described in Linux DE menus, so my wife had no problem discovering that Gnumeric was a spreadsheet (she is on a KDE desktop).
I know no user that use AutoCAD sorry.
Ookaze
> People in schools are using M$ software, so they
> DONT know how to use other software…
I find your explaination quite irritating. People do know it, if not today then they will one day. How did you get to the level you are now ? Got the golden spoon pulled up your ass ? Do you think you are something special than others because you claim the right to say the others don’t know anything but you do ? People all started somewhere and went through the process of evolution. They want to know more and one day reach the level of experience. Sure there are older people these days, moms, dads, grandparents who might have issues with the technology but the new generation of upcoming kids will grow up with these technology and know stuff. Even nowadays I detect people to be far more experienced than I am because they are younger, know more buzzwords than I do. But still I manage my way through Linux (as I did since 1996) and I still doing fine, knowing quite a lot and every day my knowledge increases.
Too bad theres no an Edit button,
i would of edited it to … Vast majority of ppl dont know how to use other software…
Even now i see people saying that they would spend a lot of cash just to get m$ office, and they don’t like OOo just becouse it is Different…
OMG it not called Excel it’s called spreadsheat.. etc…
I find this amusing and funny…
And yes the `new generation` grows up with these new technologies in an encapsulated m$ controled enviroment…
> Thank you.I feel relieved now.But who the fuck is WE? Are you some sort of paranoic communist dictator watching same mirror daily and speak with himself just to hear his voice?You are still an idiot if you ask me.
Stop acting like an homosexual you fag!
Stop acting like an homosexual you fag!
I feel the love in the air,but why calling me a cigarette?Quit smoking one year ago.
I didn’t bother reading the article because as many said, there are so many out there, most saying the same things. But what is ridiculous is the comments people are leaving. I wish you could all read this as an outside person and realize moronic we’re all being. Christ I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I think Windows forums are more civilzed.
With that said, this is my take on why Linux has issues in the Desktop market.
The best thing about Linux is: choice
The worst thing about Linux is: choice
Things seem to be getting better in this department. Yay, freedesktop.org.
“The best thing about Linux is: choice
The worst thing about Linux is: choice”
You are 100% right – I would say freedom kills linux everyday …
Ask yourself this: How many times have you been called in to fix/install etc… things on your uncles/grandmas etc. WINDOWS machine.. (my guess is a lot since the ‘geek’ of the family usually maintains the windows machines..or OS X machines for that matter)
Then ask yourself this: If HP etc, sold PC’s with presinstalled and configured Linux how many people would be using linux today?
you think it has any thing to do with ‘readyness’ for the desktop? driver support? easy of use?, you think that’s air you’re breathing?
Show me your kung fu and stop falling of the skyscraper
Before you say the word “invented”, make sure there is official history to prove your point:
[quote]
Caesar was saying when he invented the very successful strategy of “Divide and Conquer”
[/quote]
Julius Caesar was 100-44BC, where in China, there is a book that you can buy it, it’s called “Suen Zhe Bing Fa”, it contains 13 major military strategies where this “Divide and Conquer” was only one of the minor rule under one of this 13 major military strategies. This book was written at least 1000BC and before. You might say that I have no proof of that but you can buy this book on the market and it has all the history about it. Before this strategy book, there were still many of intelligent military strategies in chinese history but since these books were burned during one of the empire(800BC-300BC), there is really no proof so I don’t wanna mention it at all.
No offense but please make sure that you check the history before you say the word “invented” next time.
with linux the only driver i installed is nvidia… with windows, i need to install via, nvidia, scsi, scanner, apn driver…
stop to fud and try linux
“Linux kiddies can whine all they want, the reality is that their desktop dream seems to be getting screwed day by day. ”
~~~ faairy dust ~~~
~~~~~fairy dust ~~~~
~~~~~fairy dust ~~~~~
my dream has become reality and my reality a dream… linux on MY desktop….
sorry not screwed….thanks anyway…
JT
Linux is definitely not user friendly .. for people with little computer experience. I am getting tired of having to make entries in FSTAB so it will recognize all the partitions.
I am also tired of having to go through the xfree setup to get it just right.
The fonts still hurt my eyes… and yes they have improved significantly but they still are not up to par with the windows fonts.
I am also tired of having to add newly installed programs to the gnome menu manually.. why can’t they just show up in the gnome menu like windows newly installed programs..
I know KDE has kappfinder.. but half the distros I know don’t include that anymore…
The OSX gui speed and fonts are the best unix has to offer. Linux can get there too.. but that is what the article is about.. how to get developers realize this and get something started.
I understand that a lot of people are frustrated with these “improve linux” articles.. but these discussions are needed to get things moving.
Linux is definitely not user friendly .. for people with little computer experience. I am getting tired of having to make entries in FSTAB so it will recognize all the partitions.
And in my experience Linux is very user friendly for people with little computer experience.
Unless you think managing viruses/adware/fragmenting is user friendly on Windows.
I NEVER edited fstab in any distro for it to recognize a partition. I now know you are a MS shill.
I am also tired of having to go through the xfree setup to get it just right.
Even though in the rare cases this has to be done, it has to be done once. But you manage to do it often ?
The fonts still hurt my eyes… and yes they have improved significantly but they still are not up to par with the windows fonts.
So why do you not install them ? Every distro propose this option !! You can even do it yourself easily.
I am also tired of having to add newly installed programs to the gnome menu manually.. why can’t they just show up in the gnome menu like windows newly installed programs..
They can and every distro does it. So now I know you are a troll.
I know KDE has kappfinder.. but half the distros I know don’t include that anymore…
Of course, the one that don’t include it put the icons on the menus, that’s why.
The OSX gui speed and fonts are the best unix has to offer. Linux can get there too.. but that is what the article is about.. how to get developers realize this and get something started.
No, the article is not about that, and your specific fonts problems are solved since a long time. There are other, more technical problems with fonts, but your problems are not one of them.
I understand that a lot of people are frustrated with these “improve linux” articles.. but these discussions are needed to get things moving.
They are when the author has a clue. I still have to see one that has a clue.
Ookaze
Here’s what desktop Linux needs:
better driver support in certain areas (wifi, usb, scanners)
noob version of synaptic for super-dumb package installation
gnome needs an official menu editor
distros should come with better media codec and java vm support (free and non-free)
dependency handling across both the .deb and .rpm worlds
wider use of autopackage
There … let’s focus on some specific, realistically attainable items.
wider use of autopackage
Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh,you will upset other Anonymous on this board.The idiot one.
Here’s what desktop Linux needs:
better driver support in certain areas (wifi, usb, scanners)
This has nothing to do with the desktop, but yes, that is what Linux needs.
noob version of synaptic for super-dumb package installation
You just defined synaptic. Solved.
gnome needs an official menu editor
Why ? None of my users ever needed one. Power users need that, not ordinary users.
Every app is under logical menus, not like in Windows, where everything is spread all over the place.
distros should come with better media codec and java vm support (free and non-free)
But they can’t, you should know it. Or I would rather say, free ones can’t. As you’re too much a leecher to buy the commercial ones that do come with these, you should keep a low profile about this issue.
I won’t pay for these either, but I don’t complain and know how to install them. It is very easy for Mandriva, there is a website dedicated to this. Solved.
dependency handling across both the .deb and .rpm worlds
This is actually dependancy handling between different OS you’re asking for : impossible.
wider use of autopackage
Why ?
There … let’s focus on some specific, realistically attainable items.
You just gave one impossible to do …
Ookaze
” file system labyrinth”
linux i save something to my “home” folder
/home/guest1
windows i save to my desktop
C:Documents and SettingsAdministratorMy Documents
not much of a labyrinth to me… yes linux is a bit more flat and spread out…just different not bad. You wanna see a real mess take a look in your winnt folder then take a dip in the system32 folder…. now that is a mess!
————
“I am getting tired of having to make entries in FSTAB so it will recognize all the partitions.”
uh, how many times have you done this?this should be a set it once and forget it…. Most distros do this or give you the option to set this up anwyay…
So windows sets up access to all your partitions… strange because mine doesnt in fact mine cannot even access some of my partitions…
——–
JT
feeling flaming today
better driver support in certain areas (wifi, usb, scanners)
>>>> so petition lexmark and all those crappy companies, if they chose to NOT support windows then would everyone BLAST windows for not having support? nah didnt think so…
noob version of synaptic for super-dumb package installation
>>>i thought synaptic was the noob edition how much easier can it get…. guess i need to bring my oneclick installer back out of the closet
gnome needs an official menu editor
>>>true and i think they have been blasted with this numerous times… how hard is it to create a shortcut on your desktop tho or even add it to your taskbar
distros should come with better media codec and java vm support (free and non-free)
>>>people should not be willing to use propritary formats and as soon as free alternatives exist they will be installed… I personally do not bother with most of that stuff…. Second it isnt that hard for a distro to write a little script with a shortcut on the desktop that says “click here to isntall XYZ” and then away it goes…
dependency handling across both the .deb and .rpm worlds
>>i personally think debs rock and rpms suck BUT I do think it would be fairly trivial to make a system handle both fairly well… I mean the rpm tool is installed on most debian based systems and I have used it numerous times to install a package if I really needed it… but yea, probably would be a good idea… then again maybe not! How about the installed system being a normal install and anything a user wants to download and use being a monolithic application with all the requirements rolled into it…. no dpeendency issues at all…
wider use of autopackage
>>no solution is 100% perfect and neither will be autopackage be…. different problems, some would say better, some would say otherwise…
JT
posting like a madman!
Having completely ditched windows for ubuntu. I can tell you what the biggest help was to switching. for me, it was ubuntu forums. I would still be using windows if not for those forums.
The people on the forums helped me learn quite a bit, there are a few fundamental differences between linux and windows, and the forums helped me understand them. They also helped me get pieces of hardware working like my wacom tablet. They also helped me find pieces of software i needed, games and other tools. After about a month i felt comfortable enough with linux to ditch windows entirely. I’m quite happy with ubuntu
Is it the fault of Linux that vendors dont supply linux drivers?, no.
Lets take cameras, applications like gphoto have 600 cameras supported, in SuSE you just plug it in and konqueror file manager loads up with your pictures. I dont see Windows doing that as you need a third part app to use it. In SP2 it desides to open explorer up automaticly just like HAL does in Linux, MS copying there.
It’s also true that the Longhorn Control Center looks very close the Mandrakes Drak and have they ever heard of YaST in SuSE?.
The fact os that people just dont explore what you can do in the Linux desktops proper, they assume it works like Windows and when it dont wonder where the fuctionally is. There is alot of issues with usablility in Windows where GNOME/KDE win hands down, and I’ve not seen one artical here where is shows kde/gnome features that show just how good they are compared to Windows.
in just about every (what i see as unbias) study that i have seen where to completely computer illiterate people were put on both windows and good linux noob friendly desktops (suse, Mandrake, xandros, etc..) people generally catch on to them both at about the same speed, some think windows is a bit easier, some think linux is a bit easier
My point is… the reason linux is so fricken hard for windows users to handle is not because it is harder to use but because it is different,
there are always growing pains when moving to something different…
I have friends who use OSX and think windows is the hardest os to use in the fricken world
friends who use windows and think linux and osx are just as hard
and yes…. I myself find linux easier than windows.. why?…. because it is what i have become accustomed to.
two…. not to lol
“This is actually dependancy handling between different OS you’re asking for : impossible. ”
why do you consider this impossible? as long as the tool knows where to look for dependencies then it should not be a problem at all…now different distros putting things in different places could be a problem but then again nothing says you cant have the same thing in two places… not wise but should be doable… or a symlink…
the biggest problem is getting your apt/tool to realize what has been installed with the rpm/tool but if that is ONEtool that is used for both and can figure out how to keep track of everything then it shouldnt be a problem either….
now if a distro makes a package that relies specifically on their version of a package then that could be a problem but could be worked around…
> http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/ OMG
> they are already at 2.0 !! Which just shows as
> uninformed you are
>
> http://freedesktop.org/ OMG !!!
>
> Clueless morons wanting to argue what they don’t
> know about …
I think the one who don’t know about is you. GNOME has a hig, fine. But you can’t compare the GNOME hig, which of course is a nightmare for all developers, to the hig offered by microsoft. The latter one has professionals and paid people working on it. The first one was mainly done by 2-3 SUN employees and a handful of volunteers as you can see in the writers appendix. With GNOME everyone became a HIG expert over night, an usability expert over night, an expert in marketing over night etc. So I don’t put my money into something or simply narrowmindly follow something just because it has been written down by someone.
Oh and why did you mention freedesktop.org ? It’s NO standards declaring place as you can read on the frontpage, it’s a place where developers from different desktops met, talk, trying to work out some solutions, most of the time they don’t agree on everything and sometimes they do agree on some small specs to some degree…..
I think the one who don’t know about is you. GNOME has a hig, fine. But you can’t compare the GNOME hig, which of course is a nightmare for all developers, to the hig offered by microsoft. The latter one has professionals and paid people working on it. The first one was mainly done by 2-3 SUN employees and a handful of volunteers as you can see in the writers appendix. With GNOME everyone became a HIG expert over night, an usability expert over night, an expert in marketing over night etc. So I don’t put my money into something or simply narrowmindly follow something just because it has been written down by someone.
You don’t give up spreading uninformed doodoo,fuckface? Aren’t you?
> The people on the forums helped me learn quite a
> bit, there are a few fundamental differences
> between linux and windows, and the forums helped me
> understand them. They also helped me get pieces of
> hardware working like my wacom tablet. They also
> helped me find pieces of software i needed, games
> and other tools. After about a month i felt
> comfortable enough with linux to ditch windows
> entirely. I’m quite happy with ubuntu
Nice try for getting your UBUNTU evangelism up here. But said that, UBUNTU is not Linux, UBUNTU is a distribution based upon debian. In case the people from those forums forgot to tell you. But then I wonder why they told you to use the broken GNOME Desktop it’s totally inferior to what you used before – Windows.
> True, KDE and Gnome are way ahead of WinXP. To tell
> the truth, when WinXP came, it already ripped off
> some features of Gnome and KDE.
While I agree that KDE is ahead of WinXP I otoh disagree that Gnome is ahead of WinXP. Gnome is quite broken to be ahead of anything and even Owen Taylor GTK+ lead developer confirmed that Gnome is nowhere near to Windows (be it any version) and he even stepped so much back that he saw KDE as the real competition rather than Windows.
Reading the article, as well as many of the comments, I’m struck by how much mis-information about Linux on the desktop there is out there.
Stuff like driver support, file system completxity, software installation, desktop environment, etc, are all very, very easy with Linux these days.
Any of the stuff that the anti-Linux trolls (or the paid MS astroturfers) keep complaining about is easily solved, or is a non-exisitent problem, if they would simply use a newbie friendly, desktop oriented distro like SimplyMepis, Linspire, Xandros, or Mandriva.
These distros have extremely easy installations, super easy software installation (Linspire’s Click-n-Run Warehouse is especially easy, Xandros networks is great, Synaptic in Mepis is awesome, and RPMDrake in Mandriva rocks) programs, easy GUI config tools, well configured, attractive, easy KDE desktops, huge hardware driver support, media codecs supported out of the box, Java, Real player, flash supported out of the box, and tons of great software.
Now, if the trolls try to use Gentoo, Slackware, LFS, Arch, or pure Debian, then some of the complaints hold weight (those distros are hands-on, techie oriented distros for enthusiasts or pros who like the command line). Even distros like Fedora or Ubuntu, while very easy, require some downloading and minor tweaking to get media codecs, Java, Nvidia drivers, etc working.
But if one goes for the newbie friendly, desktop oriented like SimplyMepis, Xandros, Linspire, or Mandriva, one will have as easy of a computing experience as there is out there. That is a fact.
I am a fulltime Linux user and have been Windows free (at home) for 2 years. I will give my honest opinions on this, but first, I have to pick at something in this article.
“Linux has not made any advancements when you compare it to Windows. Windows has gone forward with leaps and bounds towards becoming a secure and productive system. Linux hasn’t made such advancements.”
Ok, so Windows has become so secure and Linux has not been advancing. Sorry to tell you, but Windows is catching up, so I’d expect nothing less from a multi-billion dollar company to make “leaps and bounds” to catch up. How long has linux come with a firewall in the majority of distros? How about windows? Linux does not need to make leaps and bounds if you are comparing to the security advancements of windows.
Anyway, not all is good in Penguinland. I do feel that there are good reasons that linux doesn’t have a place in many homes. On my laptop, I can get linux up and running with wireless and all faster than windows. RPM’s (I use Mandriva) and URPMI make installing some software easier than windows. I have never opened up a list of software to install, checked a box for a program I don’t even have on hand, and simply clicked install to get the OS to download and install it for me in windows. I know that it can be done through add/remove programs, but you have to setup each package you want to be able to install like that to be in the list. Using URMPI, they are all there, and ready to go. Spyware and viruses are also minimal in linux (and this would likely change if linux became market dominate). But there is still the software out there that requires compiling, hardware that doesn’t work so well, and a huge market of windows software in local retail stores. These are all reasons that linux doesn’t quite fit the bill of desktop software for everyone. For those who don’t mind compiling software and have the patience to make that unsupported hardware work, the rewards are wonderful. For everyone else, the reward of convenience and simplicity from windows is greater.
How long will we these articles keep being posted here? Why are there no similiar pieces about BSD, Zeta or other newer operating systems? Is this just fun for OSnews mods to post these? How many times must we go over and over the same arguments on this topic?
On the spot for the most of the stuff. However, I don’t agree on a few items.
One of them is internationalization. My native language is Swedish, probaly spoken by a lot less people than Dutch and I must say the translation is very good. Usually much better than what you find in product from a certain Redmond company. Linux is also translated to a lot of minority languages for which Microsoft offer no translations at all.
Another area where I don’t agree is the matter of integration. Look at KDE it is one of the most integrated software system I know, parts are very much reused. To help the situation furter Linux have things like HAL and D-BUS. Some improvement in this respect could be made in Gnome. There are too many applications that look like Gnome apps but in reality only or mostly relys on gtk++. Still the situation is not worse than in windows where varios version not always work all that well together.
Of course a Linux user will always have the freedom to make his desktop as unintegrated as he wants, but if you install something from one of the major distros integration will be just fine.
Then what do you think is required to brig linux more popular than windows on desktop
preinstalled is a biggie
used/taught in schools is a biggie
education about the dangers of propriatary software
Like some of the early posts, I am not interested in reading the same thing over and over again (why did I bother with this article?).
Your forums are the place for this sought of correspondence.
What I think is of more importance is what’s happening to OSNews.com? This is one of my three daily ‘must read’ sites. More and more it is letting standards slip (like this article which is badly written and promises to be contraversial and then says nothing). I think you need to lift your game.
Regards,
Peter
I have two of my family using gnome, my mum how is 50 and my uncle is 46 and both use gnome. They used to use Windows and find daily tasks easy in gnome, such BS about Linux desktop not being user friendly.The fact that we are having this debate is testement to just how far Linux desktops have come. It also seems that people see them as a threat by the crap remarks people here and the artical say.
Linux distributions like Mandriva and SuSE are very easy to install, but with windows it’s slightly easier because it dont sercure the OS, i.e Administrator as default. Also Linux installs much faster even with 3 Gb worth of software (approx 35Mins on a Celeron 566Mhx/320Mb ram)
Linux are lusers!
Next time a new worm or virus brings down your Windows OS i’ll remember that while using Linux, worm virus, spyware free 🙂
I think that Linux needs a single desktop environment. Granted, it’s fun to mess around with Gnome, KDE, XFCE4, etc, but there really needs to be a single desktop environment where developers can say “Okay, we are developing for THIS desktop. Period.” Same deal with the toolkits. Decide on GTK or QT and just drop the others. There needs to be consistentcy.
I am not sure what the solution is, but honestly I think the only way this will ever all come together is if you have a major company, like IBM for instance, have it’s own flavor of Linux to complete directly with Windows. Some platform where developers will program FOR IT and it only — “Sorry we only support IBM Linux/2”. This will force other distributions to follow suit in order to remain compatible.
I love Linux, but it’s way too fragmented right now. There needs to be ONE supported distribution and forget the others.
I had this same arguement (before reading this article) with a “linux geek” co-worker of mine. We both got involved in Unix with HP-UX 8 back in the late 90’s, he’s become a Linux geek, and I ran away from it after the frustration of the learning curve.
Lately I decided to give it another try (on his recommendation) and found that the learning curve really hasn’t changed.
Until people are able to run it “out of the box” and find someone to help them easily, Linux won’t make any REAL desktop penetration. The geeks will continue to run it and claim it’s great, but the masses aren’t going to come running.