Sun Microsystems’ new GNU/Linux-friendly Java license does not go far enough for Red Hat. It says Sun should have open-sourced Java instead. Brian Stevens, Red Hat CTO, told The Register Sun should open-source its Java Virtual Machine (which is licensed by Red Hat) so developers can improve the software’s real-time capabilities. According to Stevens, Sun’s Distro License for Java – launched at this week’s JavaOne conference – will reduce companies’ legal costs, but does not satisfy the desire for open source Java. He criticized Sun for being reactive, rather than leading, on the issue of open source Java. “They try to do the minimal amount they can get away with,” he said.
Linux users:’We are never happy’
> Linux users:’We are never happy’
Thats completly wrong, what you say.
“Linux users” (they are not a homogene group) say that they want an OpenSource Java and Sun presents one license to another. All are different and all are not OpenSource.
If you want to buy a green car and you become at first a blue car, after complaint a yellow car and then a brown one, I also not say “Hey, you are never happy”.
Sun do something, what isn’t wanted.
Huh?? What are you trying to say ? Lay off the booz
Linux users:’We are never happy’
More exactly: Make it GPL, or we will not use your software.
No. Xorg is not GPL and people use it.
But it’s still “Open Source” and “Free Software” (e.g. freedomware).
It doesn’t have to be GPL to be acceptable (nor is GPL always acceptable IMHO). There is a gazillion of acceptable licenses out there – and Sun doesn’t use them (for Java that is).
I think it is a bit pitty that people are making so much noise about opensourcing java and bringing negative energy to Sun, they have enough of that anyway, enough troubles also. Why not someone ask IBM to open their Tivoli product line? Sun is doing well with java support on different OSes and provided a viable model for development of the technology, which is bringing them also money. They have open specification, open standards, and nobody is limiting developers to make their own VMs. IBM is actually the biggest company that would profit from this, and that is why they are so much “asking” (crying) to have java opensourced, and of course, media articles are the best way to do it. From the viewpoint of the user,there isnt really so much difference if Java is opensource, if it has its source open (as it ever was), or if it is free (as it always was). Now the linux distros may sell themselves with java inside, what more?
What’s interesting is that Java is a published standard if I’m not mistaken. So how come there aren’t any fully OSS alternatives that are current with Sun’s Java, but there is an OSS implementation of dotNet which from what I understand is complete enough to become used for a handfull of Linux applications by significant developers and companies?
Not to start a Java vs. dotNet flamwar, but it just makes sense to go with the language that was there first, is more mature, and comes from a company that hasn’t taken an offensive stance against open source and Linux. If Java was better implemented and supported on Linux I might have stuck with the language, although speed was a significant issue too.
Who are we? I think thera are just as many we:s that wouldn’t use it if it was GPLed
Java isn’t like most other software, it is mor like a deployment platform than a program or a language. People deploy on Intel even though the microcode for the Intel processors are not GPL:ed, just like they will deploy on a Java Virtual Machine.
If Intel one day decided to GPL:ed the code in their processors and thereby demanded that everything that runs on the Intel platform should have GPL compatible licenses, that would be the day Intel would lose a lot of business.
The same thing would happen to Java if it went GPL over night.
RedHat is a company, not a user.
I don’t think this is as much issue for Linux users as it is for Sun. Linux users have plenty of free languages to chose from. We don’t have to use java.
For Sun on the other hand, it is important to get/keep java users, as they are much more likely to run some kind of unix or Linux than C# users. A free java could be a big blow for mono, and indirectly Microsoft and running some kind of unix they are more likely to buy things from Sun.
Sun have allready made this mistake once when they forced Microsoft to exclude java from windows, even though the java that existed in windows was somewhat twisted.
I see little risk in opensorsing Java, as long as Sun, or even better, some standards body define what java should look like. Having a standard that could be reffered to decide what is a bug or not, and a lot of open source developers fixing deviations from the standard could only be a good thing for Java and for Sun.
It’s not like C/C++ have been hurt from having free implementations like gcc. Why should it hurt Java or Sun.
That expression is often used as a compliment for an ambitious person. So, thank you.
Of course, if you meant it with a whiny sort of intonation concerning someone complaining it might be more like a mother complaining about her child’s incessant desire to push boundaries.
Thank you.
Redhat or anybody can contribute Sun Java, or Java itself any time they want ( http://download.java.net/jdk/JDK-Contribution.html ) , also now that you can distribute it without fuss what is the compelling reason for making Java open source here again? fixing cosmetic bugs faster?
> Redhat or anybody can contribute Sun Java, or Java itself any time they want
But they don’t want, because it’s not OpenSource.
If you contribute to Java, then it isn’t something for the community or so. The code goes to the ownership of Sun. And Sun allown decide, if it will be integrated in Java or not.
If Sun goes bunkrupt or changed the management in a negative way, it can be possible that newer versions of Java are no longer free of charge or so.
And nobody is allowed to improve older versions of Java anymore.
There existing a lot of reasons to not supporting a not OpenSource Java.
Greatings
theuserbl
so, the only reason you come up with is that Sun one day will die and will want to make JAva go to cemetary with him? or charging java downloads? if you look at the history of th IT or nowadays trends no company would ever do that. This is the fear of fool. and what will happen with the IBM’s Java then?
> so, the only reason you come up with is that Sun one day will die and will want to make JAva go to cemetary with him? or charging java downloads? if you look at the history of th IT or nowadays trends no company would ever do that. This is the fear of fool. and what will happen with the IBM’s Java then?
You are also not allowed to publish modified Java-versions.
Porting Java to other Operating Systems or different Hardware you can not publish the work in progress ports, because they have not passed the Java Compatiblity Kit (JCK) Test.
Why is it better to have on some platforms like Haiku/BeOS no Java instead of an WorkInProgress one?
Sun have the trademark of Java. So you can call the work in progress ones other, so that eveybody know, that it havend passed Suns JCK.
The JCK itself is under an read-only license and FreeBSD must payed money to be allowed to run JCK for the BSD-port of Suns Java.
There are a lot of reasons why a not OpenSource Java is a bad thing
You are also not allowed to publish modified Java-versions.
This is a good thing. TM Otherwise we’d have some ugly GNU Java language that won’t compile with another other than JavaG. Like GNU C and GCC.
Porting Java to other Operating Systems or different Hardware you can not publish the work in progress ports, because they have not passed the Java Compatiblity Kit (JCK) Test.
Why is it better to have on some platforms like Haiku/BeOS no Java instead of an WorkInProgress one?
Perhaps because it’d have poor stability and make Java overall look bad. Either implement it or don’t… there is no try.
The JCK itself is under an read-only license and FreeBSD must payed money to be allowed to run JCK for the BSD-port of Suns Java.
I believe this was resolved.
It is not about happiness it is about ease of use and performance. If companies like Redhat were able to edit the source for the JVM they could optimize the JVM for their OS. Shipping out binaries for other companies to use is lame. Let’s get with it Sun! Redhat and Fedora should come with the full source for the JVM. All the other open source applications cooperate with this method of distribution. Why should Sun be different?
Edited 2006-05-19 13:41
“their OS?” they can contribute the JRE for “Linux” maybe?
I agree with Brian Stevens.
Also there are utterances on Debian-legal
http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2006/05/msg00065.html
where some people say, that there existing already better Java-licensed by Sun then the new DLJ.
And if Sun don’t want to OpenSource Java, in this case there existing GNU Classpath.Have a look at this nice screenshots:
http://www.theuserbl.ag.vu/jtanswithjamvm.png
http://www.object-refinery.com/classpath/free-swing.png
http://gnu.wildebeest.org/~mark/freemind.png
http://gnu.wildebeest.org/~mark/ww2d-goldengate.png
http://kennke.org/~roman/swingset2-1.5.png
http://kennke.org/~roman/java2d.png
http://kennke.org/~roman/java2d-fonts.png
And as I have seen here in other forum-articles, it seems there are a lot of people, who are already happy with Suns license. Some people mean, that Java is “nearly” OpenSource or “so good as” OpenSource.
But it isn’t OpenSource!
And in the points where the license differs from OpenSource, it makes problems.
Greatings
theuserbl
well, still although being “mighty” open source, classpath is no where near Sun or IBM’s Java. What is the compelling reason to use it again? i dont think philosophical reasons can convince business people to use it.
well, still although being “mighty” open source, classpath is no where near Sun or IBM’s Java. What is the compelling reason to use it again? i dont think philosophical reasons can convince business people to use it.
Busines people are also not a homogene group.
RedHat are also business people and supporting GNU Classpath.
The people at Aicas (http://www.aicas.com/) are also business people and they are using for its Closed Source realtime JVM GNU Classpath because licensing reasons. And the employees helps to improve GNU Classpath.
the link ou gave is a Real Time Java implementation and has nothing to do with sun’s JVM or JDK. it is totaly different ball game. i am talking about the other millions of servers running Java.
also what is a “Closed Source realtime JVM GNU Classpath”
the link ou gave is a Real Time Java implementation and has nothing to do with sun’s JVM or JDK.
The RealTime Java are suppoting Swing and so on. And they want to be compatible as possible with Suns J2SE.
i am talking about the other millions of servers running Java.
You talked at first about “business people”. And not people which using Java for Server.
But on server side it will be also from time to time better. RedHat aquires JBoss. So it is to assume, that JBoss will be running on GNU Classpath JVMs.
also what is a “Closed Source realtime JVM GNU Classpath”
Oh, sorry. My mistake. wrong written. I mean the JamaicaVM by aicas is a Closed Source JVM using GNU Classpath as Class library
“So it is to assume, that JBoss will be running on GNU Classpath JVMs.”
That is a very big assumption.
“their OS?” they can contribute the JRE for “Linux” maybe?
Duh, when a company edits or modifies the source for GPL’d open source code it is usually available as a default. For example, CentOS which is based on open source code packaged up by Redhat. More research needed my friend before posting. 😉
Edited 2006-05-19 13:48
what is the relation with GPL here? Redhat uses a different linux which exposes different interfaces or just some little optimizations here and there? As long as JVM concerned i dont think those differences would matter much. The thing is, if they were serious on what they say they would optimize the classpath for “their OS”, but no…
what is the relation with GPL here?
Open and modifiable code is a big deal. Especially for servers to be able to tweek the code or recompile it specifically for a processor type can give you a real boost in performance for a server. Java’s greatest use right now is running on a server.
Currently there is no incentive for a Linux developer to make these code changes. Once you hand the code over to Sun you lose control over it and they own it. This is uncacceptable for an open source model of sharing with the community.
The attitude displayed by Sun is just not very good: you can do work for us but we are under no obligation to give anything back in return. Not a very community friendly policy.
Open Source != Community
GPL = Community.
They can Open Source it but that doesn’t mean they have to give control to the “community”
Open Source != Community
GPL = Community.
They can Open Source it but that doesn’t mean they have to give control to the “community”
Funnie to see how the “Advocates of freedom” are the first ones to press the mod down button.
Open Source != Community
GPL = Community.
Wrong!
GPL ist just one Free Software license.
Open Source != Community
Free Software != Community
GPL != Community
It’s all about freedom not about a development modell.
Freedom is also about a development model.
But it’s not like there is 1:1:1 relationship between freedom, license and development model. But they are closely tied.
> Especially for servers to be able to tweek the code
> or recompile it specifically for a processor type can
> give you a real boost in performance for a server.
The source is available, you can modify it and recompile it on your server to get your performance. you won’t necessarily get any support if you do that, but you can do it. Without it being OpenSource.
> Currently there is no incentive for a Linux developer
> to make these code changes.
What is your incentive to make the changes if it is OpenSource? If you are looking for personal use, it doesn’t matter whether it is OpenSource, only AvailableSource. If you are looking to help the world, why is it any different whether it is OpenSource or not? You contribute the code to the JCP, it gets reviewed, and excepted, and everyone gets the benefit.
> Once you hand the code over to Sun you lose control
> over it and they own it. This is uncacceptable for an
> open source model of sharing with the community.
What control do you have over some very small percentage number of lines of code anyway? I am a registered OpenSolaris developer with (so far) two integrated code put backs. I have copyright on my five lines of change. What good does that do me, or anyone? Am I going to somehow stop Sun (or anyone else) from using those five lines? If I don’t have that copyright, is it going to somehow stop me from doing anything in the future?
> The attitude displayed by Sun is just not very good:
> you can do work for us but we are under no obligation
> to give anything back in return. Not a very community
> friendly policy.
The code is available. They are giving it back already. How does making it OpenSource change anything? The JCP is already set up as an independent entity. There is no possible way for Sun to suddenly decide to take its marbles and go home and leave you stuck. And, even if they were to find some way to do that, you still have the version that you are using.
This idea that having a whole bunch of users who have control over tiny amounts of code in a larger project does no one any good and creates headaches for everyone. Look at the discussions awhile back about how linux (the kernel) won’t be able to go to GPLv3 (even if they want) because they can’t find all the people who contributed one line code changes to get their permission.
The source is out there, you can look at the source if you want, you can modify the source for your own use if you want, you can distribute your changes if you want (but you can no longer call it Java at that point), you can fix bugs and give them back to the JCP for integration and to help the world if you want. In short you can do everything that is good about OpenSource without actually being OpenSource, so why does it matter?
Edited 2006-05-19 16:28
Redhat uses a different linux which exposes different interfaces or just some little optimizations here and there?
I hate to burst your bubble, but Linux is the kernel – and it’s NOT different for R/H or any other Linux company.
R/H just adds a few extras (like RPM and R/H logo’s, and some specific R/H extras like setup/config manager).
Java makes a unique promise : Write once run anywhere. Vendors contribution are likely to go in the direction of optimisation patches specific to their target OS.
If SUN don’t take these patches in, then at best there will be other branches. If they take too many, they’ll have a problem to keep the initial promise.
Remember SUN got a big problem with the non-compliant MS implementation in the past.
So easing the distribution is a reasonable first step.
OK cool, make it Open Source but please don’t make it GPL.
I’m not hearing it in the discussion here, but everyone does realize that Sun has announced that they are open-sourcing Java. I thought that might be relevant to this topic.
what’s this?
http://www.sun.com/software/java2/download.html
“Download(SCSL Source)”
It’s not “Open Source”.
It is however available source, but that doesn’t qualify as “Open Source”.
Go read http://www.opensource.org/
What’s up with all this belly-acking!
Just join the Java Community process?
No, you just want to write some Non-Reviewed crap code into the JVM. The JVM that gets ported cross-platform, without any testing…
If you have good ideas that can withstand peer review, then you don’t have a problem with Java.
Open and modifiable code is a big deal. Especially for servers to be able to tweek the code or recompile it specifically for a processor type can give you a real boost in performance for a server. Java’s greatest use right now is running on a server.
Or, start a JSR, asking SUN to build better binaries for specific Linux/Intel cpu’s. But, your time might be better spent optimizing the JVM’s algorithms, because a recompile with other software usually results in less then 5% performance improvement.
Do you really think processor specific optimizations that are turned on by the -mcpu flag is really going to make any noticable difference to execution speed? You have bought into the Gentoo Ricer philosophy.
Someone should invite Red Hat to join:
https://rtsj.dev.java.net/
Which is all it really is.
Sun wants to license their products on their terms – Shock, the horror… Let’s face it, their ONLY MAJOR SUCCESS outside the high end server arena has been JAVA – Simple fact is Open Source would give up more control and IP rights, not to mention internals they’ve spent a LOT of money on, for no real practical gain…
… and before anyone gets their panties in a wad and says “Oh, it would help track down bugs faster” look at it this way – what are there for bugs in Java? How often do you hear about them… Think about the number – Now, had a look at Bugzilla lately? ’nuff said.
Sun wants to promote Java as a computing environment you can trust – Open Source does not always equal trust, and for a lot of the larger companies Sun deals with (the ones who don’t even LOOK at anything other than Solaris), it can quite often be the exact opposite. Let’s face it, the guys in suits have the nasty habit of looking at the OSS fanboys as a bunch of dirty hippies. (regardless of whether it’s true or not)
Not to mention Sun probably gives a rats ass what Red Hat thinks – there’s a reason they are a SUSE shop.
I’m not sure if I’m being controversial by suggesting that Java is now too big for Sun to handle on its own. Sun and its Java team have done a great job of designing, developing and leading Java to its current level of success.
However, Java’s getting BIG. Mustang will be shipping with its own webserver for goodness’ sake. Swing is huge. Java2D is massive. The JVM is big and complex. Yet Sun only have a finite number of developers to not only create new features and improvements, but also fix bugs.
The official Java branch will still be under Sun’s control, but I don’t think that Sun will complain about having more eyes looking at the code to add to the potential of 3rd party fixes/improvements.
Many will point out that Project Peabody – Sun’s rather strict contribution system – has been put into place to make this possible. It’s simply not flexible enough. IMHO, it was Sun pretending to be Open when they were in fact keeping a very tight grip.
There are many, many bugs in Java’s bug database. A surprising number are years old. The idea that OSS is bug-free is clearly laughable, but large projects, like Java, have such gravity and vested interests that there will undoubtedly be a swifter resolution to problems within the platform.
Read the license (http://download.java.net/dlj/DLJ-v1.1.txt) . A few points:
1. If it’s even distributable with GNU/Linux (they only mention the Linux kernel in the license), it’s not distributable with any other free OS’s (besides their “OpenSolaris”).
2. It misses the whole point of open source and doesn’t allow you to modify the source and redistribute.
3. It leaves the door wide open for sleight of hand by saying that, “Subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement, as well as the restrictions and exceptions set forth in the Software README file, …” (my emphasis).
All this new license does is supposedly allow you to package and distribute it with GNU/Linux. It’s just a silly trick to try and get distro’s to distribute Java instead of users having to download from Sun’s site. That’s it. Nothing to see here.
> All this new license does is supposedly allow you to
> package and distribute it with GNU/Linux. It’s just a
> silly trick to try and get distro’s to distribute Java
> instead of users having to download from Sun’s site.
All the Linux distros were complaining that they couldn’t distribute Java because of the license (even though Sun many times said it could be). Sun has changed the license to specify that they can distribute it. It isn’t a “silly trick”, it’s a valid response to a perceived distribution issue. It’s Sun affirming their statements that distribution is OK.
> All this new license does is supposedly allow you to
> package and distribute it with GNU/Linux. It’s just a
> silly trick to try and get distro’s to distribute Java
> instead of users having to download from Sun’s site.
All the Linux distros were complaining that they couldn’t distribute Java because of the license (even though Sun many times said it could be). Sun has changed the license to specify that they can distribute it. It isn’t a “silly trick”, it’s a valid response to a perceived distribution issue. It’s Sun affirming their statements that distribution is OK.
The reason it’s a silly trick is because Sun is trying to make it out to be something it’s not. Just as dylansmrjones points out, making it so you can view the source is different than making it open source.
Which is a really, really silly way to try to make friends and influence people.
In particular when the FAQ says that it’s legally completely irrelevant.
i don’t see what the problem really is, by java becoming open-source would just lead to more problems for it, at the moment i think the licence is fine, easy to distribute, java source code is available and you can contribute to it if you like, what more do u need?
its easyly understandable that Sun being a large company wants to protect its product. As a developer i think Sun has done a good job and it works for me.
Besides if you really are an open source zealot, then GCJ should be fine and has become quiet good of late.
Red Hat should just stop complaining… But that is typical of some of the extemist FOSS people. They are given a gift, and all they do is complain that it isn’t good enough.
They are lucky they even got what they did, considering that the FOSS people are a verey small minority of the Java users, and that the vast majority of Java users don’t care if it is open source, and many are actively against it because of compatibility concerns that they will end up getting stuck trying to support their software on incompatible open source VMs.
And besides, Sun made it pretty clear at JavaOne that open sourceing Java is in its future. It’s simply not something they can do overnight. There are a lot of logistical concerns and such that have to be dealt with before a company can open source something that big.
Fortunately, some in the OSS community are a lot more sensible. Gentoo, Debian, and Ubuntu all collaborated with Sun on the new distro license, and all praised Sun for their efforts in making it easier to distribute the JDK with Linux.
Red Hat has built a brand around maintaining an open source foundation. To say that they should “just stop complaining” about Java not being open source is like badgering a kosher deli for not selling pork products. Sure, they may miss out on customers that don’t care about open source, but they maintain their base of customers that do care. Funny thing about Red Hat’s orthodoxy on this subject is that, in terms of tangible revenue, they seem to be way out in front of the other distributions.
If Red Hat cared about maintaining an open source foundation, they’d remove all the hooks for propreitary binary drivers they ship their product with. Red Hat doesn’t care about open source — they just care about maintaining the perception that they do.
The new license is about as bad as the old one, the changes are rather small. Given that this is Sun’s poetically gifted legal division we’re talking about, that was to be expected.
Unfortunately, Sun dicussed this new license with just a handful of people, and sort of sneaked the package into Debian’s non-free archive without debian-legal having a chance to examine the license beforehand.
For three days in a row so far, Debian developers have been tearing Sun’s newest license to shreds on debian-legal because the license text says one thing, and the FAQ pretends it says something completely different, among many other things. Nevermind the behind-the-collective-back way this whole affair was conducted.
There is an easy way for Sun to save the day, still, and make everyone forget about it: Announce that you’re putting your code under a free software license *today*, and start pushing that code out.
The whole DLJ sideshow is as relevant to distributions as which license Netscape will chose for Netscape 10. Yawn.
For three days in a row so far, Debian developers have been tearing Sun’s newest license to shreds on debian-legal because the license text says one thing, and the FAQ pretends it says something completely different, among many other things. Nevermind the behind-the-collective-back way this whole affair was conducted.
Yer, it’s really sad what’s going on there and definitely bad from a PR point of view.
I don’t see what Sun is trying to prove. They want to control Java, and yet, they make very, very little out of it in the way of revenue. If they set up a project and put the code under an adequate free license tomorrow Java would be swept along on a wave of new thinking and ideas, and would push Java further forward than it has ever been done before and ensure its future.
As it stands, hard work will continue to be put into GCJ and the components around it, and it will become the standard installed implementation of Java in all but name. This will eventually make Sun irrelevant, apart from as some certifying body just so you can call something Java. As soon as someone comes up with a catchy name to replace Java Sun will become totally irrelevant.
Edited 2006-05-19 22:22
I think the question that has to be asked is what does RedHat get out of Open Sourced Java? And as usual Sun is being painted by the Linux Zealots and RedHat as “evil” for not Open Sourcing Java fast enough or to RedHat’s satisfaction. Since when did Sun have to jump through RedHat’s hoops? Isn’t Java a product that Sun spent millions of dollars developing?
Just as with OpenSolaris, there are probably some legal issues that need to be checked out first before Java is released. The more I read about Linux Zealots bitching about the licensing not being “open enough” or not using the GPL, the more I think “what a bunch of ingrates”! Sun doesn’t have to do anything, and for a company that claims to be “kicking Sun’s ass” in sales and installations, why do they need Sun to Open Source Java at all?
Sun doesn’t have to do anything, and for a company that claims to be “kicking Sun’s ass” in sales and installations, why do they need Sun to Open Source Java at all?
Because people and customers, especially in the application server world, have come to rely on Java and Java compatible implementations over the years with absolutely no help from Sun in pushing Java forwards whatsoever. Sun either moves Java forwards and allows it to become ubiquitous, or they open source the thing, let other people do it and get out their way.
All right, I’ll bite. What is RedHat going to do to move Java forward?
All right, I’ll bite. What is RedHat going to do to move Java forward?
First, they will make modification that is optimized for RH. Then, because the modification can’t be implemented in other platforms, then they fork into RH Robusta (Java is Sun trademark, so RH Java is not possible). Then other forks will emerge, e.g. OpenSuse Arabica, Debian Toraja, etc. There will be no more compile-once-run-anywhere Java.
I think what RH does is trickier than Sun (if Sun does tricky thing). First, with Fedora, they use the free beta testers to minimize development cost for their RHEL (in which more expensive than Windows 2003 Server). Now they try with non-opensource Java FUD. If RH is truly OSS suporter, why don’t they help to develop GNU/Classpath?
“If RH is truly OSS suporter, why don’t they help to develop GNU/Classpath?”
You might want to check the number of commits from Red Hat full time GCJ developers before you comment on that.
All right, I’ll bite. What is RedHat going to do to move Java forward?
I didn’t say anything about Red Hat moving Java forwards, rather everyone using an open source project(s) to move it forwards. Typical Sun. Open source (Linux, whatever) == Red Hat for some reason.
For one, you’ll actually be able install the damn thing and distros from Red Hat to Gentoo will actually be able to submit patches and improve it, as per every other half-decent open source project. Sun is going to open source Java, right? Well that’s what it means.
For one, you’ll actually be able install the damn thing and distros from Red Hat to Gentoo will actually be able to submit patches and improve it, as per every other half-decent open source project. Sun is going to open source Java, right? Well that’s what it means.
Haven’t you heard of the Java Community Process already?
What’s Stopping Them from submitting patches…
if sun ever open sources java – I’m looking forward to being able to use classpath regardless
Oh gee, how surprising seeing RedHat, a company of no substance and very little real contribution to OSS, to complain about Sun — by far the largest contributor to OSS movement. RedHat has absolutely no merit to even raise their voices, they are a little re-packaging company that doesn’t invent anything on their own and does nothing but ride the Linux hype wave, they are a leech of open source. Taking cheap shots like that at Sun is just lame. RedHat, you suck!
Well said!
The CTO of Redhat could at least have said “Thank you for making distribution Java easier for Linux distributions. We know our customer will appreciate that, and we hope you will make Java Open Source sooner rather than later.”
Instead, he pretends to be standing on a higher ground.
“the failure to open-source means that it can’t be used on millions of $100, Linux-powered PCs”
What failure? Java is used on billions of Java-enabled devices. It’s freely available to any developer who have access to a regular computer.
Which is moral: to enable the technology on the $100 laptops (which just happens to run your Redhat OS) for the poor, or sticking to your narrow definition of OpenSource and refuse to deliver Java for the poor?
How dare you even mention “bring affordable computing to children in developing nations”!
“He criticized Sun for being reactive, rather than leading, on the issue of open source Java.”
Yes, Sun is being reactive, but Sun is also _leading_ the progress of Java. If you don’t believe it, watch the videos from this year’s JavaOne.
Since you’re “critizing”, you must be “leading” on open-sourcing something, right?
Oh wait, most stuff you have today are taken from open source.
So being a contributor, you want to get more credit as someone who create the technology in the first place.
“We have reached out to Sun… we’d like to get in there to enhance and innovate.”
Wait, you won’t contribute until the Sun GPL the technology so that you can automatically take advantage of any innovation happens later, and largely made by others, and you’re so afraid of others “stealing” your contribution if it’s not GPL’ed.
In the meantime, you just take whatever Java clone out there and put into your distribution and claim “look, who cares about Sun’s JVM, we have our own”.
“To get in there and give it real-time capabilities.”
This must be a joke, if you really meant “real-time”.
While you talk the talk, Sun already demonstrated the first conformant commercial implementation of Java Specification Request(JSR)-001 in JavaOne:
http://java.sun.com/j2se/realtime/index.jsp
“We are not worried about J2EE any longer. That’s liberated. It’s more the VM.”
Wow, somebody liberated J2EE!
You simply bought a company called JBOSS and all the suddent you’re the liberator. Again, who cares about Sun anymore, J2EE is liberated, thank you for creating it, you’re not longer relevant!
Utter non-sense, that is, to even put Redhat in the same league as Sun Microsystems.
RedHat, you suck!
Come on man, what are you, two years old? You might not like Redhat and that is fine but if you are going to bother making a post you would be better off describing what sucks about their behavior, policy, etc.
Redhat is just a company like other companies that employs people and is publicly owned. They have actually done quite a lot to promote linux and Fedora. I use Fedora 5 and it works well and best of all it was free! At work I use CentOS and it also works well. I like all the Python based admin tools they have contributed to the community. Thanks Redhat developers!
Edited 2006-05-20 02:26
red hat actually needs to stop trying to run other companies IP. How would the folks form red hat like if Microsoft or any other comapny tried to ordering them around? I think red hat should innovate instead and develop something to compete with java.
Oh pulease; don’t want breakages, simply don’t allow people to call their version of “java” Java until it has been tested by SUN – simple as that.
OK cool, make it Open Source but please don’t make it GPL.
I doubt they would make it GPL, it’ll most likely be under their OpenSolaris CDDL licence.