Submitted by “Not that long ago, a significant portion of desktop GNU/Linux enthusiasts were actively advocating GNU/Linux among Windows users. I even remember doing it myself at one point, though now I really don’t care what you use on your computer as long as I don’t have to use it too. I thought that sentiment was isolated to me, but lately I’ve seen an abrupt decline in GNU/Linux evangelism on online forums. Here are some possible reasons for this change in community thinking and behavior.”
Mac evangelists are able to create a viable marketplace for mac software to be bought and sold. What viable marketplace exists for Linux software to be bought and sold?. There are just a handful of desktop apps that get sold in Linux land – vmware and win4lin and a few distros.
You are looking at commercial evangelism. I believe the article is looking more at individuals who are promoting Linux. This is like your average everyday mac user telling his friends and associates how superior his mac is over their clunky PCs. He doesn’t benefit monetarily at all if Apple gains market share. Same goes for the everyday Linux user.
i for one never gave a crap what anybody used. i use what i like. What you use has absolutely no affect unless of course you start bashing what i use because you don’t like it. Then hell will break out and you better run!
“It certainly isn’t because fewer people are interested in it.”
Unproven. Many of the of the weblogs available to me show almost no one is using Linux.
Linux accounts for about .13% of the hits in my K12 organization weblog.
No offence, but are the weblogs available to you really the right place to look for the whole spectrum of linux users?
Other weblogs shows more than 50% visitors as linux users. Some shows more than 50% visitors as Mac-users.
It definitely depends on the weblogs you visit.
Unproven. Many of the of the weblogs available to me show almost no one is using Linux.
Linux accounts for about .13% of the hits in my K12 organization weblog.
YAWN………
and I suppose you are using the weblogs for something like winsupersite.com or winfanboys.tk ?
statistics can prove anything
uh huh.
and a site designed for sheep, draws sheep.
and that’s informative how?
Yes its mostly true whats stated in the short article Id say .
It used to seem a few years ago that Linux was the great fantastic overlooked underdog – but now Google is even bringing out stuff for Linux & Linux is being used by big companies & it just isn’t a surprise any more when another company switches to Linux .
& Yes the hardware support has certainly improved .
X is finally getting somewhere
The proprietary drivers from NVidia & ATI do their job .
But – I just have to say this – OpenOffice Sucks – fact .
Please stop saying it is great when everybody knows it isn’t – it is not equal to MS Office .
To me ATM it seem like what X by now was – a huge intangible lump of code (under several licenses steered by Sun) .
IMO not a “proper” GPL project .
How about giving OpenOffice to the FOSS community ?
Post Scribbles : How about stopping the OSS against proprietary software attitude – in the real world e.g. Adobe will not “free” Creative Suite & hand out pretty flowers for peace – it does not happen .
Believe it or not – proprietary software can exist on Linux .
Edited 2006-06-13 23:14
” How about giving OpenOffice to the FOSS community ? ”
am i misisng soimething here or ou have no clue about OpenOffice.org?
🙂 – its proipably the latter – but why then doesnt it show up on sites every time there is a new version or imprqvement ?
There is a post on OSn every time there is a new GNOME or KDE or X .. – feature – what about OO ?
Why does it need to be steered by Sun ?
Why cant it just be straightforward ?
OpenOffice does not “suck”. It is not equal to office, but there’s a huge range between sucking and being equal to MS Office.
OpenOffice is not as good as Office. It is good enough for most people.
Okay yes – it doesnt suck – but it is still far away from MS Office .
So Yes I agree with you – but I am just allergic to people saying OO is as good as MS Office & poeple claiming GIMP could be a full replacement for Photoshop (on forums e.g.) – hooray for WINE
.
Edited 2006-06-13 23:23
OpenOffice.org belongs to the community, is Open Source and Free Software, and is no more controlled by Sun than X.Org is controlled by Redhat or Novell.
I consider OpenOffice to be much better than MS Office, if not as good as good ol’ WordPerfect.
It doesn’t mean I can’t find flaws in OO.o – of course I can, but I can also find flaws in Gnome, Windows, KDE, SkyOS, Syllable, Haiku, AROS, Firefox, Thunderbird, GNUmail, Wine and what not.
I still have to see somebody claim GIMP to be a 100% feature complete alternative to Photoshop. But it’s more than a complete alternative if you are a normal user. Super users of Photoshop _will_ run into limitations. The rest of us don’t really see the difference because we only use a little part of the functionality in either.
What usually happens is guy A says “The Gimp is a full replacement for a large number of photoshop users” and then guy B “Um, since when is The Gimp equivalent to Photoshop?”
What has happened here is that guy B has setup a straw man argument. Guy A said one thing and guy B simplified it so that he could show it to be stupid, but in simplifying it he has changed the meaning.
The GIMP isn’t equivalent to Photoshop, but it’s always been plenty for the raster tinkering I’ve done.
what I despise is that the “guy A” feels comfortable to decide (on his own) what is good for other users… without asking them.
Most people, I assume, that want to just use writer- that seems to be the most mature of all of them. Calc won’t graph X versus Y, only Index versus Y. It also crashes when I load Excel documents with charts in them (presumably because they graph X versus Y and it doesn’t know how to do that). I’ll grant you, using a spreadsheet program for graphing is probably not the right tool for the right job but it’s a stunning lapse to say that’s Excel compatible.
I have to be VERY careful in Impress when loading Powerpoints. I got very good (in my overinflated opinion) at using effects in Powerpoint; Impress slows to a crawl or hangs the system when I use effects, sometimes hanging the system. I had that happen with zoom effects, most notably. At least OO.o2 Impress supports removal effects… which makes it twice as good as OO.o Impress. It’s still very very slow, and very, very easy to overload. This might be somewhat unfair of me, since these were Powerpoint presentations, not Impress Presentations, but still.
//Calc won’t graph X versus Y, only Index versus Y.//
Yes it will graph X versus Y.
Don’t lie. I can’t see any point in lying to people.
Post Scribbles : How about stopping the OSS against proprietary software attitude – in the real world e.g. Adobe will not “free” Creative Suite & hand out pretty flowers for peace – it does not happen .
Believe it or not – proprietary software can exist on Linux .
OSS and proprietary software coexist in many organisations and homes. Whilst there are many freeloaders in the OSS community, there are also many people who would pay for proprietary software. I would have no problem paying for a native version of Photoshop for *nix because I think its a much better product than GIMP (the interface is awful) and it would make my life as a web developer a lot easier.
Proprietary software can exist in linux but who cares, use what ever the hell suits you and stop crying about it!
In order to get someone to switch operating systems, you have to convince them that the problems they are having with their current OS will not be present in the new one.
Of course, it’s also a bad idea to try and convince people about problems that they’re not having, such as …
After more than a decade with Windows, I know what to expect from it — I expect that it will often break, crash, or otherwise not work. This is not a myth; show me someone who says that they have never had a major Windows malfunction
Well, show me somebody who has never had a major Linux malfunction either. My Win2k install at work has been going strong for nearly 2.5 years with 30+ apps installed, and it is just now starting to show signs of decay. And the reason it’s starting to die is because I don’t have complete control over the apps that are installed. The IT department insists on installing Norton and other crap applications.
Generally speaking though, the reason why you have these issues with Windows is because either you’ve got some cheap-ass hardware or else you never learned how to use it properly. Like Linux, Windows has a handful of tricks you use to keep it running properly (security included). And once learned, you rarely run into problems.
I think many people who are moving away from Windows are going to GNU/Linux with the expectation that it is a software utopia where computer problems don’t exist.
And gee, I wonder why they think that? People have been screaming that Linux is God’s gift to operating systems ever since color text installs in Slackware were considered to be a luxury item.
Edited 2006-06-13 23:24
Well, show me somebody who has never had a major Linux malfunction either. My Win2k install at work has been going strong for nearly 2.5 years with 30+ apps installed, and it is just now starting to show signs of decay. And the reason it’s starting to die is because I don’t have complete control over the apps that are installed. The IT department insists on installing Norton and other crap applications.
Well I have had 50+ applications running on my Linux install for about the same amount of time and I haven’t had a problem.
Generally speaking though, the reason why you have these issues with Windows is because either you’ve got some cheap-ass hardware or else you never learned how to use it properly. Like Linux, Windows has a handful of tricks you use to keep it running properly (security included). And once learned, you rarely run into problems.
Actually the problem is more often than not bad drivers, not bad hardware. The drivers included in the kernel are of much higher quality than the crap ass drivers that a lof of manufacturers include (a la all-in-one drivers). It is true you can secure Windows but the biggest problem is the default admin account and the fact that there are so many poorly designed apps that don’t work without admin rights.
And gee, I wonder why they think that? People have been screaming that Linux is God’s gift to operating systems ever since color text installs in Slackware were considered to be a luxury item.
Oh you mean like the color text install of Windows where you have to install SATA drivers from a floppy during the intall?
Well I have had 50+ applications running on my Linux install for about the same amount of time and I haven’t had a problem.
Yeah, that’s what I’m saying. In the hands of a compitent user, either OS is about as good as the other. The main things that will determine which you use are your religious beliefs and/or what kind of apps you need.
It is true you can secure Windows but the biggest problem is the default admin account and the fact that there are so many poorly designed apps that don’t work without admin rights.
Unless you’ve got a lot of crackers gunning for your machine specifically for osme reason, you don’t need to give up the admin account. Do a search on this site for a Windows security article I wrote under my old nickname ‘Darius’ … read it, as pretty much all of it still applies
Actually the problem is more often than not bad drivers, not bad hardware. The drivers included in the kernel are of much higher quality than the crap ass drivers that a lof of manufacturers include (a la all-in-one drivers). It is true you can secure Windows but the biggest problem is the default admin account and the fact that there are so many poorly designed apps that don’t work without admin rights.
See, the problem is that you’re thinking about it too much, approaching it like it was a Linux box. Stop that
Except for trivial things, you don’t really ‘fix’ Windows problems. Basically, learn what an imaging program is and set up the Windows box just the way you like it, then make an image of it. When something terrible happens simply blow the entire thing away and re-image it. This won’t happen very often, and you’ll be back up and running in about an hour. That is, assuming you do things like keep all your apps on one partition and all your data on the other.
“But why should I have to do all that?” Well, in Linux, what’s the alternative? Spending 3 weeks trying to get xyz device working? It’s really all the same sh*t, just different problems. As many Linux advocates like to say, the two operating systems are just different
So don’t do stupid stuff like thinking you can’t optimize Windows because you can’t recompile the kernel. Remember, Windows ain’t Linux and vice versa. To use either OS at maximum proficiency, it takes work.
Oh you mean like the color text install of Windows where you have to install SATA drivers from a floppy during the intall?
No, I mean when it took 3 days of tinkering just to get Slackware to see my CD-ROM drive back in 1996.
Unless you’ve got a lot of crackers gunning for your machine specifically for osme reason, you don’t need to give up the admin account. Do a search on this site for a Windows security article I wrote under my old nickname ‘Darius’ … read it, as pretty much all of it still applies
That is the worst idea I have ever heard. Limited accounts are a cornerstone of security.
See, the problem is that you’re thinking about it too much, approaching it like it was a Linux box. Stop that
Except for trivial things, you don’t really ‘fix’ Windows problems. Basically, learn what an imaging program is and set up the Windows box just the way you like it, then make an image of it. When something terrible happens simply blow the entire thing away and re-image it. This won’t happen very often, and you’ll be back up and running in about an hour. That is, assuming you do things like keep all your apps on one partition and all your data on the other.
How many ordinary users out there can actually accomplish something like that. Who the hell would want to deal with that kind of instability anyway? I would rather know that I didn’t have to resort to such measures. In fact I reserve those actions for hardware failures.
“But why should I have to do all that?” Well, in Linux, what’s the alternative? Spending 3 weeks trying to get xyz device working? It’s really all the same sh*t, just different problems. As many Linux advocates like to say, the two operating systems are just different
So don’t do stupid stuff like thinking you can’t optimize Windows because you can’t recompile the kernel. Remember, Windows ain’t Linux and vice versa. To use either OS at maximum proficiency, it takes work.
The difference is that once you get something working in Linux it just works. With windows apparently I have to blow it out and reinstall every once in a while, at least according to you. For me it never takes weeks to figure out Linux problems and the only things that did take me a while to figure out had nothing to do with normal usage. It had to do with some tweak or unstable application. During normal everday usage I don’t run into any problems.
No, I mean when it took 3 days of tinkering just to get Slackware to see my CD-ROM drive back in 1996.
And? That was a decade ago. Windows still has a color text installer.
Like Linux, Windows has a handful of tricks you use to keep it running properly (security included). And once learned, you rarely run into problems.
Okay, I’ll bite. What are these magic tricks?
Because of the three OSs I use regularly (OS X, Linux, and Windows), only one ever gives me any trouble.
For example. My brother’s XP machine is set up with two users, me and him. When the machine comes out of sleep mode, I’m presented with a login prompt with two users. If my brother was stil logged in from the previous night and I click my user icon, the computer screen will go black for a second, then go back to the log-in screen as if nothing happened. To log into my account, I’ve got to go into his, log out, then log in myself.
I don’t know why this happens, or even if this is a “feature, not a bug”, but Windows does this sort of “goes what I’ll do next” bullshit all the time. Linux is utterly predictable, and so is OS X. That’s the least you can ask of a machine.
I couldn’t agree more. I haven’t had a real blue-screen crash in Windows for years. People cling to these old cliché’s about Windows instability.
Also, I have SUSE 10 installed at work (much to my employers amazement), and it crashes pretty regularly. And I mean to the point where a reboot is the only option.
It’s not fair to say that anyone who claims that Linux is not ready for the desktop is only saying so because they can’t find the solution to some problem. The problem is the amount of TIME REQUIRED to solve such problems.
I use Linux because I enjoy a challenge, and I like being presented with something new that I have to think about. But it still pi$$es me off sometimes, and I wouldn’t recommend it for my Mum for example …
I wouldn’t recommend Windows for my mum if she had to fix problems with it, either.
A lot of people take the attitude that a desktop Linux is “too hard”. It isn’t, its just different to what the Windows problems you have already been forced to learn about.
That (relearning) is a valid reason to keep using Windows, but it doesn’t mean one is harder than the other.
it’s because multimedia and codecs are still non-existant legally. The market/use of computers has moved to media center pcs (a pain in the ass to set up in Linux), and DRM software (like it or not).
Well, it’s no more difficult to set up a Linux-system as a media center, than it is to setup windows as a media system.
Good luck with getting WMP to play Ogg Vorbis (it’s doable, but no ordinary user will do it – they are too scared).
“Well, it’s no more difficult to set up a Linux-system as a media center, than it is to setup windows as a media system.”
ROFL, Oh my god this is so far off base. A few weeks ago I set up a WinXP Pro media machine. Up and running playing Xvid, DVD etc. in no time.
Sigh, my Suse Linux install took countless unacceptable hours just to get Xvid going thanks to Yast being the crap it is. Yum would supposedly install components with no affect. Apt just plain failed. For Linux geeks maybe they enjoy all this hassle. For me, sorry I have life and better things to do then spend countless hours just trying to get something to work that should have from the start
“Good luck with getting WMP to play Ogg Vorbis (it’s doable, but no ordinary user will do it – they are too scared).”
-Did I miss something here? Umm just install the codec and voila. Maybe you are confused with Linux where you have to compile and config for counteless hours to get crap to work.
Linux, to me, is the best at being a server. But desktop Linux is a joke that the Linux community pathetically refuses to see the reality. Maybe for geeks that like to sit in a dark room on a Friday night might enjoy all the work Linux takes, but the vast majority of people just want an OS that simply works. Period. Desktop Linux is not that, and as long as these zealots continue to delude themselves it will not ever be.
In Fedora Core 2 (more than a year ago) all I had to do was using Synaptic to install codecs, and everything worked from there.
With WMP you have to install DirectSound codec, mess with configuration (in non-intuitive ways) to get WMP to accept it, and hope for the best.
Divx, XviD and other video codecs are however not a problem, but the audio codec Ogg Vorbis is damn difficult to get to work. Even WinAmp is more difficult here than even Gentoo or another mainstream Linux-distro.
With Linux you do not have to compile for hours (unless using sourcebased distribution), nor fiddling with configuration.
Configuration is pretty much automatic these days, even with Gentoo.
Getting ALSA to work is no harder than installing a soundcard driver in Windows (however, that _can_ be pretty tricky).
Most people complaining about things being hard in Linux are wannabe-geeks from the Windows platform, those who don’t even know how to fire up a shell in Windows, nor how to configure a network in Windows.
Yeah you are right, linux is easy. how funny.
Well, I know some have problems with configuration, but for me things ran automagically.
The only real configuration I had to do with Gentoo was X.org – that was a tad tricky, but not harder than getting an old Riva TNT card to work with Win2K3.
With Fedora Core 2 I didn’t have to do anything configuration at all. And switching mobo didn’t crash the system (try that with Windows).
Me bad, i failed to relize that. linux is soooooooooooo
eeeeeeeasy. A 156 old man could finaly get it
if I was 156 year old man, I think I’d probably run Babbage OS, people don’t like change!
I actually had the opposite problem, I have a dual boot system here with Kubuntu (Breezy Badger), and winxp, my MB died and I ahad to get a new one, when XP booted up, it reinstalled everything, rebooted, and it was good. KDE crashed every 10 minutes or so, and I finally had to reinstall kubuntu (that was my excuse to upgrade to dapper, I probably could have fixed it if I cared enough). Just goes to show that every users experience is different, because thier needs are different, and because every PC is different
Was the MB a completely different brand or another versions of the same MB?
Replacing a MB with a completely different brand, should make XP go nuts, and require a reinstallation. If XP actually runs on a completely different MB you can consider it a bug (XP is supposed to fail during bootup), because it’s not supposed to work that way
Different Brand, different chipset, I actually expected to have to do a repair, and I was amazed
I can understand why.
if ogg vorbis doesn’t work on windows, then it’s almost definitely because it wasn’t packaged properly. Sure, it might be hard to integrate a codec into WMP (you need to generate some GUIDs to identify your codec and then stick some registry values under the DirectShow category which is once again described by an opaque GUID). On the other hand, this stuff is all handled in setup programs or even simple .inf files. If Ogg can’t be installed, it’s probably because the developers were not familiar enough with the windows way for registering COM libraries. This stuff is generally not left to the user.
That’s clearly possible.
The one I’m using on Windows is the DirectShow filter from xiph.org.
As I understand it, it isn’t so much that Ogg Vorbis can’t be integrated into WMP, but more like the fact that Microsoft refuses to do it.
Here is a perfectly open format, freely able to be implemeted by anyone, and a good format at that, yet when you try to open a .ogg file in WMP, by default the player simply gives a message that “the format is not supported”. For most formats that are not included in WMP by default, WMP will download a codec for you. Not so for Ogg Vorbis. The wording that you get almost seems to imply that WMP cannot handle )gg Vorbis media files at all. In fact it can (all it needs is a codec), it is just that Windows goes out of its way to try to give the impression that the format is not able to be played in WMP.
I succesfully run WMP with Ogg Vorbis codecs. I have to disagree installing that codec was difficult.
Did you use the DirectSound filters from xiph.org or another package? Pure curiuosity from me. I’d like to know an easier way than to fiddle with the registry.
Yes, the same filter from
http://www.illiminable.com/ogg/
Make sure to remove all previous filters before installing Ogg Vorbis filter for WMP.
Sorry for the late reply.
//I succesfully run WMP with Ogg Vorbis codecs. I have to disagree installing that codec was difficult.//
That is not the point. The point is that Microsoft refuses to support the format for no apparent good reeason.
If “Joe sixpack” gets hold of an .ogg file, and tries to play it in WMP, WMP says “the format is not supported”. WMP doesn’t automatically download a codec as it would for most every other format that is not included by default.
“Joe sixpack” is very likely to conclude the format is not possible to play in WMP. If he got the file from a website, he might even complain to the site manager about a “non-standard audio file”.
//That is not the point. The point is that Microsoft refuses to support the format for no apparent good reeason//
Um, duh?
Ever heard of marketshare? How many “Joe Sixpacks,” as you call them, have ever asked you about an “Ogg Vorbis” player?
None? And how many have asked you about an “MP3 player?”
Dozens?
Fact is, “JOe Sixpack” is HIGHLY UNLIKELY TO EVER “get hold of an .ogg” file. Period.
Hmmm .. boy, this is a tough one to figure out …
man, you are so full of shit.
this post was out and out FUD.
Suse goes out of their way to make sure divx, encrypted DVD, mp3 etc do not play. to actually get them to work under suse, you need to remove the installed versions first.
also, compile and configure ? yeah right
Good luck with getting WMP to play Ogg Vorbis (it’s doable, but no ordinary user will do it – they are too scared).
Ogg Vorbis support in WMP is always touted as a shortcoming on WMP. However, for the vast majority of users it’s a minority format and not worth worrying about…
Edited 2006-06-14 08:25
Good luck trying to find a normal windows users who even has Ogg Vorbis files to play, most people have never heard of it
I remember having to dig up codecs on Windows from time to time as well. At the time I didn’t know what they were so I can’t tell you if it was because they were xvid and Microsoft wasn’t supporting that or some other format Microsoft wasn’t paying to support.
I remember, with great annoyance, having to play .mov’s in Quicktime (the worlds worst video player).
There are bootable cd media center setups in Linux. If you have compatible hardware (a typical prerequisite) you can’t get any easier than the way it’s setup in Linux (it just works). Now, usually you end up with sort-of compatible hardware and then it can be a real nightmare.
Evangilists of OS’s annoy the shit out of me. OMG MAC OS X (Or Linux, or Windows but right now it’s the Appleheads who are doing it the most it seems) IS TEH GREATEST YOU AN IDIOT FOR NOT USING IT ROFL ROFL!!! It pisses me off.
I stopped overtly evangalizing Linux. I found most of the people I associate with (Amateur Radio operators) just get that glassy-eyed expression on their face when I try to talk to them about Linux. I now just make snide comments on the local 2 meter repeaters when one of the folks that uses Windows starts complaining about the latest virus or malware problem he/she has had.
I even have some that ask me what kind of anti-virus/spyware/malware removal tools I use, and I just tell them I don’t run any. When they ask why, I tell them and just move on. I figure if they keep having these problems, and continue to run Windows, then they really are beyond convincing. Obviously Microsoft has done a much better job then I could.
> continue to run Windows, then they really are beyond convincing
Possibly this is because resistence to malware is not the only factor in the decision making process, and evangelism is per se idiotic and stupid, since the very premise is to start with a solution and try to fit it to a problem – or indeed just start and end with the solution and not even ask what the problem is.
Linux evangelism sucks just as much as FreeBSD evangelism, Windows evangelism, Mac evangelism, and Solaris evangelism.
Very little of this is a direct response to you, but your post inspired it. (BTW, all future uses of the word “you” are in the general sense.)
I’m going to throw out a hypothesis here, and I welcome disagreement. Here it is: Windows is the only platform despised by its own experienced users.
You could make this case on culture alone, with how most of the scathing parody directed at Microsoft products is created by their users for their users, but I think I see the reason for that.
The more I see of Windows, the less I like it. The blue screen and malware aren’t the only issues, just the most evocative examples. Installation wizards (or really any wizards), drivers, patches, confirmation dialogs, and having to restart (for any reason) are inescapable Windows usability problems. And, of course, there’s the granddaddy of them all, reinstallation. How many times do you end up restarting Windows after a fresh installation before you’re ready and permitted to use it?
When I play around with a ‘n*x, or even something off the beaten path like BeOS, I find there’s always a point after a certain threshold of research (googling) and experience where I really begin to appreciate the platform and want to use it more. The more I use it, the more I feel like I’m in control of it. Windows never lends me that feeling. There are lots of settings I can mess with, but the ones that aren’t extremely superficial or very specialized usually break something.
Which brings me to troubleshooting. I enjoy getting Gentoo and Solaris to work how I want them to, and it’s not because I enjoy the chase. I’d much rather It Just Work, which is why OS X is my #1 choice. What’s nice about working on problems on anything other than Windows is that there is, somewhere, a clear, definite solution, and I can implement it myself. Almost any problem is both diagnosable and solvable, and if I choose to reinstall, re-implementing the solution only becomes more trivial (sometimes because some steps turn out to be unnecessary, or because the OS lets me back up my configs, or because I’m more familiar with the general functions involved, or just because I know what I’m doing and can do it without being accosted by wizards and and other confirmation dialogs.)
In other words, spending more time using any OS other than Windows makes it easier to use, which I think is a huge reason why people spend time evangelizing. They’ve worked at it long enough (which, in many cases, has been less time than it takes to reinstall Windows) to discover what’s so great about it, and then they go and try to describe the advantages to others. Those others download the CD and never take the time to get anywhere with it, but believing that they’ve “tried” it, brand the evangelist a liar.
After more than a decade with Windows, I know what to expect from it — I expect that it will often break, crash, or otherwise not work. This is not a myth; show me someone who says that they have never had a major Windows malfunction and I’ll show you someone who has never upgraded their hardware or software. I expect Windows to malfunction, so when it does, it’s no surprise — just more of the same crap from the same crappy operating system.
The author of this article may not be able to keep his Windows system running smoothly, but he should speak for himself rather than assuming that everyone has a similar experience.
I’ve been using Windows regularly for over 10 years, with plenty of hardware and software upgrades during that time, yet I’ve never experienced unexplainable/unsolvable malfunctions. I’ve experienced plenty of problems, but after reading the documentation, searching the web for help, or asking for guidance on forums, they’ve all been fixable. I don’t think I’ve ever had to reinstall Windows to solve a problem,believe it or not the copy of Windows 2000 I’m posting this from was installed over 4 years ago and it’s still working perfectly.
I have to wonder what people like him do to their Windows systems to mess them up so much? Maybe I’m being unfair saying that, but then Linux fans like him are quick to claim that people who have trouble with Linux are unable to “figure out something horrifyingly simple” or their problems are “usually minor and frequently discussed”. In my experience that’s equally true of most of the problems people have with Windows.
GNU/Linux, it seems, is never allowed that kind of leeway — one thing doesn’t work as expected and it’s straight back to Windows, where undesired operation is the status quo.
It seems to me that this author isn’t giving Windows any leeway. The fact is that both operating systems have their problems, kludges and issues that cause annoyance even to many advanced users. Users of both Windows and Linux have to accept that they’re going to have to learn about their operating system if they want to avoid “undesired operation”, but both systems can run smoothly when setup correctly. Surely Linux has enough merits of its own to attract users without its fans having to spread FUD about Windows?
unexplainable/unsolvable malfunctions
He does not claim that they are unexplainable nor unsolvable.
They are however (mostly) unrelated to user actions, and for the ordinary user they will be unexplainable as well as unsolvable.
When Windows fails, it mostly because the system can’t cope with the hardware (possibly due to bad drivers or hardware) – when Linux fails it’s more often than not because you made a mistake. Those mistakes are not possible on Windows, because you don’t have access to do such mistakes.
I have to say I don’t believe you haven’t had unexplainable crashes with Windows 3.x.
He does not claim that they are unexplainable nor unsolvable.
They are however (mostly) unrelated to user actions, and for the ordinary user they will be unexplainable as well as unsolvable.
What are you talking about? All the problems I’ve had with Windows were related to my actions. Most of them were caused by problematic hardware/software or my mistakes, such as configuration errors. I’ve experienced a similar selection of problems with Linux, and I’m sure to an “ordinary user” (by that I assume you mean someone who isn’t willing to do a bit of research to solve a problem) they’d be equally unexplainable and unsolvable.
When Windows fails, it mostly because the system can’t cope with the hardware (possibly due to bad drivers or hardware) – when Linux fails it’s more often than not because you made a mistake.
Bad drivers, configuration problems and problematic hardware can cause problems in Linux, just like they can cause problems in Windows. For example, a few years ago I had a problem where X would lock up randomly while I was running 3D software. It turned out that it was caused by the drivers for my graphics card and ultimately it was solvable.
Along with problems caused by my mistakes, that’s the kind of fixable issue I’ve had in both Linux and Windows. Personally I see very little difference between the two OSes when it comes to that kind of thing.
I have to say I don’t believe you haven’t had unexplainable crashes with Windows 3.x.
Where did I say anything about Windows 3.1? Windows NT 3.5 is the first version I used seriously, before that I was primarily a RISC OS and Mac user.
In that case claiming your Windows system is running smoothly can’t be correct, unless driver issues and configuration problems are “running smoothly”.
It’s virtually impossible to configure Windows to a state where it’ll non-work. It is perfectly capable of self-destruction.
You claim 10+ years of Windows experience. I can claim the same. And 20 years of Microsoft experience.
If you want to, we can take some bats and beat each other to death.
Fact is however, you quoted the article for something it didn’t say.
As the author of the article, I’ll add one more thing to this:
While I was writing the article, I was also doing some sound card testing on one of my reivew machines. It’s a computer dedicated to software and hardware testing. anyway, I installed a Diamond sound card in it, and used the provided driver. During driver installation, the machine locked up. I did a hard reset and found myself staring at a STOP error screen. To fix the problem, I had to start in Safe Mode, remove all of the installed drivers, then reboot and let Windows redetect them all over again. It’s one of those “magic tricks” you mentioned earlier, and if I hadn’t known it, what would my options have been?
Anyway, a day after I got that straightened out, I found the “Windows XP” screen saver had crashed, leaving one of those “send an error report” dialogue boxes up on the monitor all night. It was a totally unrelated problem. I will reiterate that this is a test machine that works perfectly with OpenBSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD, and a half dozen GNU/Linux distributions. Aside from the problems mentioned here, I had a lot of trouble with a Gravis gamepad and a Microsoft wireless USB keyboard that didn’t want to work right in XP. Windows is the only OS that ever gives me trouble on this computer, and having used it since the earliest public betas, I will say definitively that problems like these have always been there and are still not fixed. I’ll say it again: undesired operation is the status quo in Windows XP.
These problems don’t happen in GNU/Linux because the drivers are built into the kernel, and the entire kernel is tested and released as one working unit… not a mishmash of Microsoft code from six years ago, plus six years of hacky binary patches, and proprietary vendor drivers of dubious quality on top of it. The only proprietary drivers I ever deal with in GNU/Linux are for Nvidia and ATI video cards, and the occasional NDISwrapper adventure.
Anyway, what I’ve said about Windows is not “FUD.” I do not think that word means what you think it means.
In that case claiming your Windows system is running smoothly can’t be correct, unless driver issues and configuration problems are “running smoothly”.
It is running smoothly as it isn’t currently suffering from any of those problems. My installation of Linux is running quite smoothly too, despite the various problems I’ve had with that OS over the years.
I’m not claiming that Windows is perfect, my point is that both OSes have their problems, and in both OSes most of those problems are solvable.
It’s virtually impossible to configure Windows to a state where it’ll non-work. It is perfectly capable of self-destruction.
I’m not sure exactly what you’re trying to say here. As for the system “self destructing”, in my experience that’s no more true of Windows than it is of Linux.
Fact is however, you quoted the article for something it didn’t say.
The point I was trying to make is that the more extreme anti-Windows claims made in that article are nothing but FUD. A well maintained and properly configured Windows system, with fully working hardware, will not “often break, crash, or otherwise not work”. Someone who claimed that Linux had such problems would be considered a troll, or would be flamed for not being about to configure their system.
A well maintained and properly configured Windows system, with fully working hardware, will not “often break, crash, or otherwise not work”.
I don’t know how many Windows computers you have been exposed to, but that is not the experience users have in my office.
Crash? Not usually. Occasionally not work in some weird way? Definately.
Perhaps it’s because the computers in your office are not “well maintained and properly configured”? My Xp install is well over 2 years old, and runs like a charm, my GFs computer has been installed since 2003, and it never needs any work, because it was done right
[i]I’ve been using Windows regularly for over 10 years, with plenty of hardware and software upgrades during that time, yet I’ve never experienced unexplainable/unsolvable malfunctions. I’ve experienced plenty of problems, but after reading the documentation, searching the web for help, or asking for guidance on forums, they’ve all been fixable. I don’t think I’ve ever had to reinstall Windows to solve a problem,believe it or not the copy of Windows 2000 I’m posting this from was installed over 4 years ago and it’s still working perfectly.[i]
Your statement proves the author’s point. When one gets stumped in Windows, if they are knowledgeable about computers, they will google for the answer to a question about a malfunction. Often, (and I have seen this with my brother for example, who considers himself an 3l337 hax04 because he’s running WinXP with a Vista transformation pack and a dualmonitor setup, but spent all of 40 minutes futzing with the install of Mandrake 10.1 before declaring linux a lost cause and rebooting back into Windows) that same Windows expert won’t take into account that he has 10+ years of experience with Windows to build on, and that there is an inherent learning curve with a new OS. And it should be pointed out that this is true with any OS. I’m quite comfortable with Linux, but I’ve never run a BSD box. I would have a learning curve switching to BSD if I did so today.
Howdy
I think that all the zealots have finally got sick of spewing the same crap time after time and grew a few years older and found that no one really cares.
IMNSHO anyone using teh/roxor or 1337 in a sentance thats not taking the piss out of someone should not be allowed to comment.
*sigh* sometimes it makes me sad reading comments from people who obviously have no idea about the subject matter and pass in a phrase like “I`ve been doing this for twenty years” when if they`d even of done it for two they`d know that what they say is retarded.
<rant>
Still can`t beleive virii isn`t a word, if google can make it into the dictionary why can`t that !?
</rant>
The heydey of Linux evangelism, in my opinion, began in in 1998 (formation of the Mozilla project) and ended in 2003 (Novell purchases SUSE). Mozilla made Linux ready for the desktop for me and most of the people who would become the evangelists. The height was somewhere in 2000, around the time the Sun created the OpenOffice.org project. By 2003, Linux was a big enough deal for major (albeit declining) software companies to consider betting their company on Linux. By 2004, companies born and bred on Linux had multi-billion-dollar market caps, RHAT at around $4B USD and GOOG at a monstrous $29B.
Linux doesn’t need grass-roots evangelism in the same way as Firefox no longer needs full-page ads in the New York Times. There is no such thing as a CIO who doesn’t know of the existence of Linux, and not many who haven’t tried it or seen it running. The purpose of would-be evangelists has shifted accordingly. It is no longer about showing your Linux box to your friends as they stare in wonder of this mysterious new version of Windows.
The most useful target for evangelism has shifted from friends and family to the OEMs that sell Windows PCs. Just as Firefox identified their target market as people who are comfortable installing new software on their PCs, the current market for Linux is further limited to people who are comfortable reinstalling Windows. This market isn’t very large, it never will be, and there’s no real reason for it to be even as big as it is today (this is primarily Microsoft’s doing, so we can thank them for the intermediate computer users who have for some reason had to reinstall Windows, and have now moved on to installing Linux).
Linux evangelism is no longer something we can do in our preferred distributed method. It is not a divide and conquer algorithm. It now requires a one of the major Linux distributors to step up and shoulder the investment necessary to offer a hardware vendor an offer they can’t refuse. Something along the lines of: we’ll create the base images and certify them for the various product lines, we’ll handle all of the support services and give you a healthy cut, and we’ll never charge you any licensing fees for our software. My personal preferred partnership would be Canonical and Lenovo, but as a true evangelist, I realize that any progress is good progress.
“<rant>
Still can`t beleive virii isn`t a word, if google can make it into the dictionary why can`t that !?
</rant>”
Virii is the plural form of the word “virus”. Dictionaries don’t contain plural forms of words. That’s why you can’t find it in there.
Howdy
Hmm last time I googled for that it came up that it indeed was not correct the plural was viruses.
It was also pointed out to me by a few readers of this site (who may or may not still be active).
It`s funny how things never really seem to be black and white, they sort of strobe with time.
Ahhh to be young again *sigh*
It is not really any concern of mine what other people may use.
My only legitimate concern is if what they use goes out of its way in an attempt to make what I use unviable.
I am a strong “evangalist” only when it comes to lack of interoperability. I do not want to see OSes or applications trying to use a strong position to establish and enforce proprietary and closed formats on end users. That practice only promotes lock-in, which is in no-ones interest except the software vendors.
If people want to use a proprietary and closed OS, and lock themselves in to a sole-source software vendor, it is really no concern of mine. But if they then want to send me documents in a closed format that is deliberately designed to be difficult to deal with on my platform of choice, then I do have a problem with that.
Fortunately, there are standards emerging (such as PDF and to a lesser extent hopefully ODF) that can eliminate this problem. More and more, people send PDF documents rather than Word documents. If this interoperability trend continues, then there will be no need for any “OS evangelism” of any sort at all.
Unfortunately, there does seem to be one significant player who seems to be dead-set against cross-platform interoperability of any sort. In my view, paradoxically, it is precisely this focus on lock-in, eliminating competition and lack of interoperability which has the highest potential to drive users away from such a vendor.
If this interoperability trend continues, then there will be no need for any “OS evangelism” of any sort at all.
Except when you are forced to use some application not because of the files it operates on but because of the application itself. Let’s say your company uses a certain conference application, or you’re a student and some special software, like an analysis tool, is a central part of a course you are taking. If you’re lucky you get some way along using wine, but don’t count on it.
//If you’re lucky you get some way along using wine, but don’t count on it.//
Then go one further than Wine. Run your Windows-only application in a secure stable environment under a Linux OS.
http://www.win4lin.com/content/view/64/125/
Win4Lin Pro Desktop runs Windows 2000/XP applications as intended, without the need to patch the host operating system (e.g. no need to patch the Linux kernel). This next generation product is the perfect solution for the technical workstation, home, or enterprise Linux user.
* Runs Windows 2000/XP Applications and Desktop on Linux at near-native speed
* One-Click-2-Windows™ installation — the easiest way to install Windows on a Linux Desktop
* Copy-on-write-snapshot mode which can prevent changes to the user’s virtual disk from being saved, denying viruses and other malware the ability to corrupt the user’s virtual system disk
* Full support for audio playback and recording
* Requires no patches to the kernel
* Support for AMD and Intel 64-bit hosts
* Runs applications as intended in “real” Windows
* Full integration between the Linux and Windows filesystems for user documents and settings
* 90-Day Email Support
* 30-Day “Money Back” Guarantee
Organizations wishing to migrate to Linux need wait no longer because they can now run those Windows legacy business applications that until now have prevented them from moving forward.
* Win4Lin Pro Desktop runs as a well-behaved Linux process sharing Linux memory and file system without surrendering control to the Windows guest operating system.
* Because of the Linux highly stable architecture, PCs are no longer at the mercy of Windows viruses and other malware.
There you go, that should do it (but this is not free. $69 I think it costs).
Enjoy.
Edited 2006-06-14 12:00
I’m still preaching but like most great religions it seems people have to come to it on their own.
Its right <a href=”http://linuxwhores.blogspot.com/2004/06/13/amazing.html“>here<…
OMG your an iddit fore not using linux and your a fraud you idiot. xterm works better than cmd and u no it. rss even works better in linux my suse boxes agggregat tej information better in linx tan on windows. btw mac is ok 2 lol but the ipod drm sucks so says the fsf u know? i bought an iriver no probes here 😛 . gonna bujy that thinkgeek tshirt soon. peace.
I think people get tired of the same old linux is better line,is getting very old. And then when we go and try
it and it cant load the x-window or audio or it is slow as allgetout or, and yes linux does crash or get stuck. If a
person likes linux fine. You like windows or OSX? fine
Not everybody who tries linux is going to like it.It is overhyped
Edited 2006-06-14 05:33
One would hope that part of the reason is one not mentioned by the author: a realization that OS evangelism is totally counter productive. The behaviour of the Mac evangelists is enough to persuade one of that. Mac evangelism has become so widespread among Mac users, and so disagreeable, that it is probably a major force in limiting Mac sales.
If what Linux is losing, if it ever had it, is that endless repetetive chorus of misprepresentation, cheerleading, abuse and little red book waving that characterises Mac evangelism, good riddance.
All Linux needs from its enthusiasts is for people to quietly help their acquaintance install and run it when it is the right choice for them, and not otherwise.
If its not, help them with their Windows. Or their Macs.
Edited 2006-06-14 05:42
Amen Brother, you speak the truth
there exists a plethora of badly crafted VB applications that the corporate world can’t get buy without.
Linux Evangelism is all very well and goot but what does it mean in reality.
IMHO, Linux has got to a point where it is a recognised alternative to Redmond Products. As a previous reply noted that for most people OO is perfet for 99% of users with a bit of retraining. Many major commercial app are available on Linux (Are you listening Adobe?) so many of the doubts that commercial IT depts have about deploying Linux in their companies have gone away.
There are still some gaps but I think the home grown corporate apps are the major stumbling block to wider Linux adoption in the commercial world.
IMHO, this should be a perfect opportunity for people to get the Linux foot in the door especially as Microsoft is trying to drop VB6 ASAP. There is a large cost in moving some pretty ancient & decrepit VB code to .NET even if they can find the sources to the original apps!
This is where the next phase of Linux Evangelism should be targetted. And No, MONO is not the solution.
Valour, your article is full of crap. It is almost like you want to make up problems with Windows XP.
When I used Knoppix, it locked up my laptop. I tried a newer distro and it still locked up my laptop. I tried an older version from years ago and it booted but my printer didn’t work. The games that I tried using OpenGL ran at 1 frame per second using an Nvidia GPU and my wireless support did not work. I tried to find new driver and it crashed.
Now, if I was to make my opinion on Linux like you made with Windows XP, I would have been done with it. What a simple minded person you are. You do know that linux is harder for most people and even experienced people to deal with. Right?
I am not trying to defend windows XP, but millions of people have not had issues like you have had and yet somehow it is crap. Get out of here!
His article is pretty much worthless. He puts down windows by using hardware designed a long time ago and then starts evangelising Linux.
Valour, you invalidated your entire point.
It’s like saying you are for peace and you kill a man.
Hypocracy all around.
This is what puts me off on linux. Yes I have tried it, but it is so over hyped and people like you who say that you are not evangelising it are just insane, of course you are. Your article and your posts here are full of it. You are a FUD machine.
Then you dare say that FUD does not mean what you want it to me. Get the F out of here! You don’t make the standards dude, nobody gives a crap about what you believe, it is the majority who makes the rules.
Linux is a huge bunch of patches as well and they are all put together with very little if any standards and very little coding reviews. It’s patch city. Please don’t spread lies because of what happen on some windows machine somewhere.
You seem to have a lot of trouble with Windows while the majority have very little to none. If there were tons of issues and crashes, don’t you think you would hear about it and have lots of people using linux more than there is now?
I had a ton of problems with Knoopix but you know what? I am better than you, I don’t blame knoopix. I have never seen a bluescreen in XP, but I am sure some have, that does not make me a bad person or a person who has no skills. I have been using computers since the Atari and Commore and I have used MSDOS and Unix using Solaris. I was on the Internet in 1994 using a University Unix account as Windows machines at the time were using Windows 3.1 and not using TCP/IP until Winsock came out.
What puts me off of Linux more than the OS, is people like you. Trying to act all nice and saying that you don’t evangelise and then turn around in the same article to do it! What a fake you are.
I wish Linux kids would stop writing articles and getting press like this. It is an embarrasment to the Internet community.
The problem is that Open Source has been hijacked. I used to mean that the software was free from any issues with Patents and such and the code was available for everyone no matter what Operating System they had.
I remember trying to buy Carina II BBS software on the Atari 8-bit to give the code away for free so people could improve on it.
I don’t mind that. Many people have done awesome things with this. Look at the PNG image standard. Look at DOSBOX and look at MAME. When it works, it is great.
However, I am angry that now Open Source means open software for Linux only and that is wrong. It is wrong that Linux means Open Source. I don’t mind that Linux itself is open source. I do mind that the politics mean that having a job in the industry and creating software is somehow a sin and that Closed source and Open source cannot live in an environment together and not compete.
I don’t want open source to be a poltical movement for Linux. That is crap and it is hijacking the entire purpose of software to some political stupid notion that has ruined a good idea.
If all you have for linux is politics, I am not interested. I am not a liberal hippy from Berkley CA. that is a communist. I don’t care!
I just want to see software improved and if that is under Windows and Open Source as well as Linux I am fine with that. I dislike that people want to force me to use Linux by trying to make open source projects available on linux only and push the political hype towards that direction.
This is why I think a lot of people on these forums are mental midgets. Not trying to troll or get a rise out of people, but they miss the big picture.
It is about software and pushing it to make it better, faster, more secure, and more innovative. It is not about the Operating System.
The problem with Windows is the users. It’s a decent OS, but the low quality (average) users ruin it.
Malware, viruses, worms, spyware, and most other major Windows problems can be blamed almost exclusively on users being stupid. Sure, virus writers and malware companies are a part of it, but they’re only taking advantage of the stupid users that are already there.
People often make exagerated claims of how hard it would be to get a virus on *nix becase they’d have to download it, “chmod +x”, then run it, and how they’re not likely to do that with untrusted software. The problem is, the average Windows user trusts all software. All pictures. All webpages. All emails. They would happily jump through the extra hoops and get their machine pwned.
I stopped recommending Linux to everyone except computer geeks. Getting average users to switch would dumb down the user base, and bring most of Window’s problems over to Linux.
The problem with Windows is the users. It’s a decent OS, but the low quality (average) users ruin it
That’s the attitude that I dislike the most : Windows is decent, it’s the user’s fault. Or was it sarcasm ?
There are people on this thread that live in a dream world, I wonder what they are smoking. Those are the people that say they never had a problem in 3+ years of using Windows, never reinstalled anything, … That’s just the selective amnesia that affect ALL Windows advocates I met or discussed with, even the gurus.
A good thing about Linux : we blame Linux when it doesn’t work, not the user. Because it’s not often when it doesn’t work because of the user.
Malware, viruses, worms, spyware, and most other major Windows problems can be blamed almost exclusively on users being stupid
That’s just not true. As long as all you people that run Windows alone without having to support your relatives or other users, you won’t be able to understand or even see all the annoyances you forget 5 minutes after losing days making your OS work again.
I’ve been through this, that’s partly why I toned down Linux evangelism. I don’t try to push people to Linux now, through years of supporting Windows (and the worst was in my own family) I now know that Windows is so hopelessly broken, I don’t need to push anything anymore. I just don’t support Windows anymore, and people come to me, and I say I won’t do anything, except install Linux for them. And then I see how much abuse in the Windows world they can take before accepting Linux.
I decided to let people take the abuse, if that’s what they like, but I won’t help them unless they switch to Linux.
People often make exagerated claims of how hard it would be to get a virus on *nix becase they’d have to download it, “chmod +x”, then run it, and how they’re not likely to do that with untrusted software. The problem is, the average Windows user trusts all software. All pictures. All webpages. All emails. They would happily jump through the extra hoops and get their machine pwned.
This is BS. My wife caught a lot of malware on Windows and became afraid of even reading mail. Since she is under Linux (5+ years), she NEVER caught ANY malware with the behaviour you describe : yes, she trusts anything and never had any problem. So the OS is a BIG difference, contrary to what you say.
I stopped recommending Linux to everyone except computer geeks. Getting average users to switch would dumb down the user base, and bring most of Window’s problems over to Linux
That’s just not true.
You’ve just never dealt with true average users. I’m sorry to tell you even them can see the difference, and they even tell me.
Simple things really : “it’s better than before, when I run the computer, I get it in the state it was when I shut it down. It never locks”.
Some people talk about media centers here. That’s one big area where they should not talk about Windows.
I think that’s the worst experience I ever had with Windows. When in the evening, your wife says she’d like to see a movie that’s on the disk, that it worked the day before, and refuse to load, and then you take 3-5 hours searching what is wrong, not finding it, and reinstalling everything (and your codec pack that’s supposed to work with everything), if you can’t see is a nightmare, your wife will remind you of it. Like in 99 Win98 pushed me to Linux, in 2002, it was WinXP that pushed me to GeexBox. The Windows client was the only PC connected directly to the rear projector, that’s how I used WinXP to view movie in the living room. Well, I had to ditch Windows after losing several evening repairing it. With GeexBox, it just worked flawlessly each time !! Even with badly encoded videos, or yes, videos like xvid/ogg in ogm (and yes, there are a lot) or mkv. It just worked, with support of remote control, no need to launch the OS, launch the player, and pray like with WinXP (and I know computers).
So I don’t need to evangelize anymore, I’m happy with Linux, all my users and family are happy with Linux, I just let the others choose between me helping them with Linux or not call me for Windows problem.
Well, I still defend Linux against trolls too.
> A good thing about Linux : we blame Linux when it
> doesn’t work, not the user. Because it’s not often when
> it doesn’t work because of the user.
This is a very helpful attitude, but unfortunately it is not perceived as such by average users when they disagree with you about what “work” means. I do not know you, and I don’t know how you use that word. However, many of the issues I had with Linux would be consideren “not working” by normal (non-geek) people.
Being a geek myself, I know that these can be considered misunderstanding of the system, or problems caused by legal issues, or problems caused by nonexistant specification of the hardware, or a hundred other things. That’s because I have a certain knowledge of the subject and thus can imagine the reasons behind a problem. But average users don’t have that knowledge. For them it’s working or non-working. And then enter some Linux advocates who tell the user about that underlying problem, that either doesn’t happen with (say) Windows or which a Windows geek simply *fixes* rather than explaining to them why the problem is inherently unsolvable (or solvable only in theory, like the legal stuff). I don’t think it’s suprising that Linux leaves a bitter taste to them.
I don’t know if you act the same towards users; I simply hope you don’t
Please disregard comment, I actually meant to respond to the parent
Edited 2006-06-14 13:59
No, it isn’t. ‘Virus’ doesn’t have plural (singularia tantum).
I have new toys to play with.
Solaris 10 sure it has its major pitfalls especialy on my netra X1 but oh look… (freebsd openbsd linux suck on it) Toster BSD is actualy the only thing that works apart from solaris 10. (note my version of works is out of the box)
Solaris 10 is kind of like linux was for me 6 years ago. Why use a popular OS anyway? I have only ever come accross one major nark in solaris #irc but I am sure there is more out there.
With longhorn dawning people are looking for an operating system that provides real development roadmaps.
Debian = you will get it when its good and ready
Mandrake = yep we will market you this (i rejected mandrake around 9.1-10)
sourcemage = its getting there
unbuntu = I have sponsership so ill be able to feed developers
gentoo = ooh its a fast one a!!
These days its more of a platform issue and it seems each year more distro’s pop up why not join together more?
unix light looks interesting
tux on tux = population controll
When I started with Linux, windows 98 was the dominant OS on home computers. About a year later, XP came out and within 2 years, for most users, Windows was not unstable anymore. Still unsecure but largely stable. For corporate users that happened earlier with windowsNT.
Most Windows users don’t even see Windows, let alone see it as a problem. And when you are advocating a solution to a problem that people don’t think they have, you are unlikely to be well received.
There used to be some valid criticisms of Linux – eg lack of drivers, too hard to install software, too few applications, etc.
These days Linux supports way more hardware out of the box than Windows does, GUI package managers have solved the software installation problems, and for nearly every common Windows application there is a Linux equivalent as good or better. Yet still the trolls (some even on this thread) try to put Linux down. Why do that?, one has to ask.
Meanwhile, Windows is indeed more stable than it was, but it is still insecure (by design), and there are many, many times more threats out there. The majority of Windows systems that have been exposed to the internet are riddled with malware infections. People think PCs “decay” and slow down over time – it is actually just Windows that does that.
Then there is the litany of un-mentionable objections about Windows: WGA; threat of BSA audit; phone-home-ware that is an official part of the system disguised as ‘security updates’; lock-in proprietary data formats; lack of standards support; lack of a competitor; single-source supplier; runs only on a very limited range of platforms (x86 and amd64); near-complete lack of cross-platform interoperability; threat of pay-per-use software; one-sided EULAS; DRM; never-ending upgrade roundabout; etc, etc.
//And when you are advocating a solution to a problem that people don’t think they have, you are unlikely to be well received.//
None of these obnoxious things mentioned above apply to Linux. It is not that the people don’t think they have a problem, they just don’t realise that there is an alternative that solves all of these problems.
OpenOffice.org is in many ways equal or superior to Microsoft Office
OpenOffice is certainly growing up but ‘in many ways’ does not mean necessarily in ‘my’ way. I know lot of people tired of its relative sluggish behaviour and its results quite variable when importing Word or Excel docs. In that case, ‘tired’ means : back to MS Office.
High-end users have little trouble moving to GNU/Linux
AFAIK Windows and Mac don’t generate much ‘high-end users’. They do generate tons of users who have troubles to find their documents and know very well how to click here and there. That’s about it.
Those people are in no way ready to land on Linux ground whatever distro you can think of. They are not encouraged to ‘think’ but ‘use’. They are made dependant of the technology they use.
About the trolls he forgot to mention people answering posts of users lost in open source world with the famous : ‘Read the f–king Doc’ lol
//OpenOffice is certainly growing up but ‘in many ways’ does not mean necessarily in ‘my’ way. I know lot of people tired of its relative sluggish behaviour and its results quite variable when importing Word or Excel docs. In that case, ‘tired’ means : back to MS Office.//
I know of a lot of legacy documents that open better in OpenOffice than they do in MS Office.
I know of a lot of Windows systems that are extremely sluggish due to all the resources of the PC being used to run viruses, rootkits, spyware and keyloggers.
Your point?
//Those people are in no way ready to land on Linux ground whatever distro you can think of. They are not encouraged to ‘think’ but ‘use’. They are made dependant of the technology they use. //
Au contraire, here is a User Guide of a “newbie friendly” easy Linux desktop distribution written for just such users. Largely you operate the system in a way that is very similar to Windows. I have tried several new-to-Linux non-tech people on this system, and they had no trouble at all.
http://www.pclinuxonline.com/wiki/HomePage
http://www.mypclinuxos.com/downloads/root/PCLinuxOS_User_Guide.pdf
Enjoy. Its easy! You can have a new system up in a couple of hours, as easy to use as Windows, with a FULL SET of applications out-of-the-box, and thousands more ready to downlaod, all for free! No ads! No spyware! No EULAS, No CD-keys, no registration, no cost!
etc, etc, etc.
There, is that evangelistic enough for you?
Edited 2006-06-14 11:51
I know of a lot of legacy documents that open better in OpenOffice than they do in MS Office.
My experience is different. Most people (and I mean 99%) I tried to bring to OpenOffice have encountered lot of problems importing Word, Excel, Powerpoint docs and tired of those problems went back to MS Office. Evangelization in those conditions is not easy believe me lol
I know of a lot of Windows systems that are extremely sluggish due to all the resources of the PC being used to run viruses, rootkits, spyware and keyloggers.
I know a lot too since that is part of my job. I mentionned its ‘sluggish behaviour’ whatever OS it is run on. AFAIK I’m not the only one out there to find Oo slow. I’m glad it does exist but it still has a way to go.
Your point?
My point is it is one thing to tell like the author ‘OpenOffice.org is in many ways equal or superior to Microsoft Office’, not giving any demonstration about the equality and superiority and it is another one to experiment on daily basis the two problems I have mentionned previously.
The people I made try Oo didn’t see much of this ‘equality and superiority’. That is concrete experience no fancy expression in some article.
The two links you provided look pretty good and I will certainly recommend them for beginners. However that is the work from one particular distro. Linux is a huge world, Windows and Mac users are not used to that diversity and universe of choices.
Maybe linux.org might be revamped, redesigned from the ground and could federate all linux distros and provide linux users/beginners/curious more stuff. That might help.
Things get better every day but there is still lot of hard work to do.
My experience is different. Most people (and I mean 99%) I tried to bring to OpenOffice have encountered lot of problems importing Word, Excel, Powerpoint docs and tired of those problems went back to MS Office.
Not to nitpick, but you judge an Office Suite on the support it has for non-native, closed source, proprietary formats without documentation?
What about judging OOo on its abilities, when using it as an Office Suite in its own right, instead of using it as the cheap ass replacement version of MS Office.
That OOo can import .doc, .xls, .ppt is a bonus, not the raison d’etre of the suite.
I doubt that the OOo native formats would give the same amount of trouble…
> Not to nitpick, but you judge an Office Suite on the
> support it has for non-native, closed source,
> proprietary formats without documentation?
I read from his posting that he judges OO.o by the amount of trouble when switching to it, versus the advantage of using it. Not being able to open MS Office documents *is* a disadvantage for most people. This is by far not the only way OO.o should be judged, but it’s the way it should be judged by people who consider to switch *now*.
I thought the article’s analysis of the two troll types was excellent. You can imagine how a newbie will see the community when they post a simple question and are told to go back to Windows in a scolding tone – completely unnecessary.
I work in a substance abuse detoxification center and people are often grumpy, sick, angry, and depressed coming off of drugs. Often times the addicts demand nurses help them or criticize the programs. Sometimes I point out to patients that have they ever noticed that people who ask for things and help in a nice way are more likely to be helped. It is a simple thing but so often forgotten. If you need help ask for it nicely. Threats and demands and name calling on forums just turns people off and pretty much guarantees you won’t receive help.
The threats and name calling and inappropriate language used in posts is more an indication that the poster has some emotional issues to process. Healthy people help in a rational way not in an aggressive, irrational way.
Edited 2006-06-14 13:50
I tried to move to linux for some time now, Kubunto was a nice choice although i was confronted with many problems, lack of hardware suport or hardware not fully suported or software that isn’t fully compatible (i never found a MSN client in linux that suported the games…)
For hardware examples, is the Ageia PhysX Card suported in linux?
Is the new Creative Labs Sound Blaster X-Fi Card suported ?
Is the Graphics cards from ATI & Nvidia FULLY suported?
I don’t think so…
Don’t take me wrong, i kinda like linux, last time i installed it in my computer under dual boot, i installed mandrake 10.1 Beta in x86-64, and it was preatty fast (windows XP x86-64 version is also fast, dispite the lack of hardware suport), and i liked the idea of knowing what was installed in my computer, but i use small programs that don’t have portability to linux, or that similar programs aren’t fully compatible like MSN Messenger.
I like to play games, and it’s with my experience, that i say that windows is better suited for games rather than linux.
I also have OpenBSD installed in my little server (its a pain in the ass to setup, but worth every second spent on that). Reason? Security, it’s a P2 350Mhz serving as a Wi-Fi Router with VPN.
I also want to say that most of my friends that use linux, have windows side by side in dual boot, but most of windows users don’t have linux. I also don’t have, i had but realised that din’t needed it and never used it, windows was able to do everything.
To end, i just want to say, many windows users didn’t change to linux already, simply because, linux doesn’t offer equivalent programs for every little program that some of us, windows users, use, or like me, don’t have full hardware suport.
I like linux, don’t take me wrong, it simply doesn’t do what i want.
For hardware examples, is the Ageia PhysX Card suported in linux?
Is the new Creative Labs Sound Blaster X-Fi Card suported ?
Is the Graphics cards from ATI & Nvidia FULLY suported?
They are working on support for the PhysX card, yes. But it isn’t exactly all that well supported on Windows. Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter is the only game that I know uses it, and I only know of the Unreal Engine 3 that will support it in the future.
Not to metion the extra effects I’ve seen it do are not worth $300, not to mention that it doesn’t take as much load off the GPU as it should.
For the X-Fi card, see http://opensource.creative.com/soundcard.html
In particular “The X-Fi series of products are not supported under Linux. Closed-source drivers will be available for the X-Fi series of sound cards in the second quarter of 2007. These drivers will have full support for ALSA (playback, recording, mixer, MIDI, synthesis) and OpenAL 1.1 (with EAX effects)”
As far as nVidia and ATI go… I have an nVidia card and am very happy with it. Everything works great from Dual-head to 3D acceleration. Can’t really say about ATI, except from what I’ve read their drivers are getting better.
It seems to me that evangelists tend to work the hardest when they believe that they’re operating from a position of weakness. Four or five years ago, Linux was far from ready for the desktop and, yet, evangelists were banging their drums at a fever pitch and declaring this the “Year of the Linux Desktop”. Since that time, Linux has come a very long way toward becoming usable on the desktop. Yes, it still has challenges (ie. multimedia, DRM, etc) but, I believe, the fact that it has narrowed the gap means that evangelists have fewer reasons to necessarily convince people that Linux is viable. Clearly, it IS viable for many applications.
Also, I believe that as Linux has become more accepted, this change has taken away some of the allure of being a one-time fringe operating system. The debate turned away from “Us versus the World” to “Geeks versus Newbies”. When even newbies can use the OS, it tends to lessen the technical mystique to many geeks. Technical knowledge of how to manipulate config files, etc tends to become marginalized when those same files can be transparently modified via user-friendly UI. Perhaps many geeks that evangelized Linux became a bit disillusioned when they realized that their community had become a little bigger (and less technical) than they anticipated.
Plus, perhaps we have reached a saturation point, where people have contributed enough features to ask, “What next?” How can we make this thing significantly better? Sure, you can always improve perf, usability, and appearance … but are these just minor tweaks — or are they huge leaps forward? I tend to look at them as minor tweaks. The real huge leaps forward were done 30 years ago in Dennis Ritchie’s time. What we are doing now is evolutionary, not revolutionary. Perhaps this notion simply caught up with us now.
you judge an Office Suite on the support it has for non-native, closed source, proprietary formats without documentation?
I don’t. Most windows users do.
Importing .doc, .xls, .ppt is a bonus but not a detail for users who have a bunch of ms office docs.
I doubt that the OOo native formats would give the same amount of trouble…
I use OASIS/ODT doc with no problem (although I had some troubles some time ago with ODT between Kword/Kspread and Oo).
I wasn’t trashing Oo. I was just sharing my experience.
I also don’t really care… if you’re satisfied with what you use, then keep using it. Isn’t that the ultimate goal? To be content with what you use. That’s how I am with Linux.
When someone complains/posts somewhere about having Window$ problems, a virus, spyware, etc, then I’ll tell ’em about Linux.
The problem is that Open Source has been hijacked. I used to mean that the software was free from any issues with Patents and such and the code was available for everyone no matter what Operating System they had.
I remember trying to buy Carina II BBS software on the Atari 8-bit to give the code away for free so people could improve on it.
I don’t mind that. Many people have done awesome things with this. Look at the PNG image standard. Look at DOSBOX and look at MAME. When it works, it is great.
However, I am angry that now Open Source means open software for Linux only and that is wrong. It is wrong that Linux means Open Source. I don’t mind that Linux itself is open source. I do mind that the politics mean that having a job in the industry and creating software is somehow a sin and that Closed source and Open source cannot live in an environment together and not compete.
I don’t want open source to be a poltical movement for Linux. That is crap and it is hijacking the entire purpose of software to some political stupid notion that has ruined a good idea.
If all you have for linux is politics, I am not interested. I am not a liberal hippy from Berkley CA. that is a communist. I don’t care!
I just want to see software improved and if that is under Windows and Open Source as well as Linux I am fine with that. I dislike that people want to force me to use Linux by trying to make open source projects available on linux only and push the political hype towards that direction.
This is why I think a lot of people on these forums are mental midgets. Not trying to troll or get a rise out of people, but they miss the big picture.
It is about software and pushing it to make it better, faster, more secure, and more innovative. It is not about the Operating System.