“Ubuntu 7.04 (Feisty Fawn) arrived just a few days ago with promises of better hardware compatibility, included proprietary software and drivers, and more user friendliness. Was it wort the wait? And more importantly – Is it finally time to “Make the Switch”?” Read the review here. Elsewhere, “First thoughts on Ubuntu 7.04 Feisty Fawn” was published at ZDNet. Update: A reply article to the two linked above.
Ubuntu 7.04 – Time to Switch?
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
I have been using Linux on and off for a while now. Though I think this time I might stick around. It is not just Ubuntu that made me switch, but the fact that Virtualization (eg VMWare) works extremely well. I need to develop, test, and write code for talks, books, etc.
In previous days I would write scripts, install and generally hack my way through getting things to work. With Virtualization I can create an image and then save the image. It works especially well due to the new multi-core processors.
Feisty is quite nice, and by using virtualization I am giving up nothing. I have even come to the conclusion that Feisty is faster to run a Windows image, than Windows itself… So yes I have switched and will stick to it.
Yeah it’s an seemingly odd situation whereby Windows can run faster inside a Linux OS VM that on the host hardware alone. We do this at work and it’s pretty amusing to see the expression on the Windows team when you tell them.
I wish I had the time to find out why this is the case. Question, does the compatibility extend to DirectX? I’d be interested to know.
I find with graphics like games virtualization no matter the host operating system is slow…
Now regarding to all of those naysayers that Linux is missing this that and the other thing. Well, yeah, but so is Windows, and OSX and I have used Windows, and OSX. But what makes the difference with me is that I can be productive NO MATTER the host operating system.
So this asks the question if you can be productive no matter the host operating system why Linux? Simple no lame connection restriction and overbloated services that require an eight core CPU so that I can get a hello world GUI. Linux allows as many user connections as I need and thus when I run my software all of the server pieces are on Linux.
I like Windows and C# quite a bit, but when I download and install Orcas and I require at a minimum 5 Gigs you know you there is a bit of bloat somewhere.
I guess Cedega is the answer for running Windows games under Linux. It’ll be interesting to see how the DX10 only games are done in Cedega.
I have elected to stay with edgy for now. Feisty has some very nice features, however, for day to day use, edgy seems more responsive to me. I care little about compiz or beryl personally, though I’m sure they will both improve with time. Feisty “seems” to run slower than edgy on my machine(Sempron 3000, nvidia GeForce with shared memory, and I have 968 Megs of ram after the video card takes it,s share. I’m not saying Feisty is “slow”, but edgy seems to work better for me at this time. I will admit that I stayed with dapper until recently for similar reasons. In the interest of full disclosure; I also use Debian etch, and find it slower than edgy, perhaps, there are some tweaks, that I am unaware of, but this is my two cents for what it’s worth.
I was tempted to stay with Edgy…. But I wanted to try Feisty since it seemed to have more virtualization tweaks. Though let me tell you getting VMWare to run in Feisty was a pain. The problem is that the new Feisty Kernel using the Linux 2.6.20 branch and that has some changes that virtualization has to account for….
Your reason to move to feisty is more valid than mine as I don’t use virtualization. I use my system as a home desktop only and , also have little intrest in virtualization at this time. I respect your view and hope to see GNU/Linux become more versitile as it is already far ahead of Windows in my opinion.
Just a fyi, I just recently upgraded to Fesity Fawn from Edgy, and installed VM Ware on my AMD1700 server. the only package I needed to get was the linux-headers-generic-386 or something like that to obtain the header sources. otherwise vmware installed without a hitch.
I have even come to the conclusion that Feisty is faster to run a Windows image, than Windows itself… So yes I have switched and will stick to it.
So virtualization is faster than real hardware now?
Ubuntu’s great but it isn’t that good!
On a side note virtualization isn’t in the OSNews spell check dictionary
It can happen, actually. Particularly startup, since DMA hasn’t yet loaded in Windows (XP anyway, I believe one of the features of Vista was early enabling of DMA support for fast startup).
Sometimes the Linux drivers are faster than the drivers on Windows for the particular hardware, and so Windows can run faster despite the overhead.
I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that I said virtualization is faster than real hardware.
What I said is that Feisty is faster to run a Windows image, than Windows itself. In the context of my overall reply I was saying that virtualization runs slower on Windows than it does on Feisty.
I was not implying that it was faster than real hardware.
I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that I said virtualization is faster than real hardware.
What I said is that Feisty is faster to run a Windows image, than Windows itself. In the context of my overall reply I was saying that virtualization runs slower on Windows than it does on Feisty.
Aha your right I assumed you were saying that Feisty runs an image faster than Windows runs on hardware.
Close but no cigar ;/
Those things are bad for your health anyway
Hmmm thecwin: Really? I did not even know that.
Graphics and media is slower and is a pain. You need a native installation (Even Windows Guest and Windows Host is a pain).
Though for pure calculations, network traffic, and harddisk access, LINUX is darn fast! I sort of wrote this off as, “oh since I am running XP Media / XP Professional edition Microsoft is putting in some things to not allow as many concurrent connections thus slowing down thing.” I notice the difference as I run number crunching algorithms.
linux is not a fast booting OS.
On AMD 3000+/SATA 7200rpm/2GB RAM, XP boots in 12s to fully functional GUI
12s boot time on Ubuntu to GNOME or Kubuntu to KDE in a similar time on similar hardwre will not happen for some time if ever.
Kernel development is pushing server more than desktop options so this is not a spupprise.
It is to laugh.
XP boots to a fully functioning GUI in 12 seconds?
You must not be loading ANYTHING other than the OS, right?
Add in Norton AV and a firewall and try again, dude.
And “fully functioning GUI” – I’ve NEVER seen that in 12 seconds. I see a DESKTOP in maybe 20 seconds (my machine is NOT 3GHz) and then I see the disk churn for another 30 seconds at least before I can effectively use the machine.
My Kubuntu 6.10 comes to a TRULY fully functioning GUI in much less time.
well I am sorry for you. Using Norton..
make system partition sepatate and read only for user
(and adjust registry as needed so software will run) Don’t use IE.
Why would I need Norton firewall? there are better choices. Use OBSD as a firewall.
Ubuntu fast boot.. compare “your kbuntu” (with upstart if you wish) to slack, gentoo or arch.
Ubuntu is still woefully unpolished. It’s definitely an improvement over the last release, but Feisty still falls well short of a passing grade.
Would Apple ship an operating system where one menu has two mismatching “information” icons? (right-click the network icon in the system tray and you’ll see what I mean). Icons system-wide are a complete and utter muddle, and have been for far, far too long.
“Desktop Effects” is embarrassingly broken and simply shouldn’t have been shipped. Turning them on shouldn’t result in black windows under any circumstances. My Samsung monitor’s 1440×900 resolution wasn’t detected out-of-the-box and I had to resort to manually editing xorg.conf to get it working correctly. The fonts in OpenOffice.org are rendered differently to the way they’re rendered by GTK+, and have been for two releases now.
Does Ubuntu do a lot right? Yes. Do they do enough right? No.
A lot of desktop-effects depend on the drivers. i.e. I have noticed that no Nvidia drivers (repo version or official nvidia version) work for my 7900GS, while they all worked for my 6800card.
It’s indeed strange that (K)ubuntu is like the only distribution that doesn’t detect resolution automatically, even the new stable debian detects it. But well, that’s like the only flaw I could detect, don’t have the problem of inconsistent icons because I use Kubuntu which has different icon themes.
I don’t like the Human icons either. Ubuntu must switch to Tango which are much more “clean”.
I don’t like the Human icons either. Ubuntu must switch to Tango which are much more “clean”.
you can easily switch to an alternate icon theme after install if you see fit.
And what’s the problem? Then please choose Tango or Tangerine or whatever you want.
Btw, Human looks nice compared to Tango…
Click on System>Preferences>Theme and change away.
This is not Windows you are talking about!
Saying Ubuntu is woefully unpolished is being a bit harsh. Are there problems in Ubuntu? Yeah, but there are in Windows, and OSX as well. No operating system, nor hardware maker is 100% right on the money. These days I find hardware and software is a crap shot. Sometimes you win, and sometimes you loose.
The key is to recognize that things are a crap shot and move beyond that! For example I have OSX horror stories, and while I could bitch about how bad Apple is my end result is that I lost with Apple. Will it stop me from buying Apple? Sure! But do I think Apple is a garbage producer? No as I know plenty of people are happy with OSX, I just don’t happen to be one of them. And this is why I am happy with Linux (Ubuntu) and Windows as they tend to solve my problems…
I am unhappy that it cant properly support hardware like my 7 year old Intelli Mouse Explorer or Geforece2 Pro. The mouse has buttons that just don’t function under Ubuntu and my gfx card wont go higher that 800×600 with the new restricted driver. Back to Windows for me.
It sounds from your post as if you chose the newer nvidia driver – I have had no such problems with the “legacy” driver recommended for older cards.
Personally I dislike multibutton (more than 3) mice, but can’t they be setup? Kubuntu has the KDE configurator – don’t know on Gnome.
q The fonts in OpenOffice.org are rendered differently to the way they’re rendered by GTK+, and have been for two releases now. q/
The fonts look perfect in Kubuntu 7.04 but not in Ubuntu.
The same with firefox.
KDE does a better job in rendering fonts.
This used to be the other way around for years..
Sounds like you have KDE installed on an Ubuntu install or vice versa. KDE f–ks up the Gnome font settings with the changes it makes to ~/.fonts. Try removing that then restarting Gnome.
To add a few things I encountered:
System monitor’s CPU ussage is very high here (it jumps constantly from 5% to 20%), yet I can not turn of the “beautiful” anti-aliased lines so that it uses less resources. And if I start it the first time it is upset, so that the numbers on the y-axis are unreadable –> looks very unprofessional.
Same goes for the chess programm, it is very slow – maybe it uses svg for chess pieces. Yet there is also no way to use a faster method.
Maybe these programs would use less resources, if I was able to run not only in VESA.
Maybe these programs would use less resources, if I was able to run not only in VESA.
That, my friend, is your problem. You get close to no accelerated video output with VESA, so your CPU has to do all the work your GPU normally does…
File a bug. From OpenOffice 2.1.x this should not happen.
Font rendering in OpenOffice 2.1.x on my gentoo box renders font completely the same way as all other GTK+ apps (and QT3 apps) in Gnome. OO.o 2.0.x was somewhat ugly including bad kerning, but this has all been fixed with OO.o 2.1.x and 2.2.x
Few ppl are switching entirely. Ubu is cute and getting cuter,
but is not ready for ppl to make a definitive switch, fer real.
Like most ppl, I’ll keep a foot in both camps for years and years, yet!
That is a misleading exaggeration. Ubuntu is quite polished, though there are still areas where improvement is needed…but to say that a distro is not worth switching because of icons? I’m sorry, but I have a hard time taking this seriously.
Was your monitor’s resolution still not detected correctly after you installed the proprietary drivers?
Replying to myself as it appears the the Nvidia screen resolution issues are in fact a bug:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-restricted-modules-2…
This is kinda bad, as many people are affected (strangely, for once it paid off to have an ATI card, as I didn’t have any of these problems).
I hope this gets sorted out quickly. In the meantime, it is suggested to use the “nv” driver if you need the correct resolution (at the expense of 3D accel, however…)
Saying it is “woefully unpolished” because the default iconset isn’t very nice must be the most stupid argument i have heard so far.
Woefully unpolished, yes unfortunately.
The big problem as I see it is that the typical Linux user doesn’t seem to care about things like polish, design and professional looks. So the maintainers of Ubuntu or any other distro probably won’t change in this regard. I really like Linux – under the hood. I just wish it would look really good out of the box, but like I said, I have this feeling that most users don’t care. Or, even worse, actually say things like Gnome looks good out of the box etc.
I think murloc is very correct in that a lot of Linux users are not concerned with the polish, design, and looks as long as they are using a non-MS OS. It is like in an article I read a while back about BSD that described Linux users as people that use Linux because they hate Microsoft. Ubuntu does fill a basic need in that it is a entry level non-MS OS for people to use who do not wish to use MS. The problem is that the zealot crowd fails to understand what non-geeks like or want. And they have spoken
I personally do not foresee Linux as a threat on the desktop for some time, it just is not there. And it is quite possible someone or something else will come along and be the “it” OS in a few years, surpassing Linux as the desktop replacement. When you consider what Apple did by designing an OS from the ground based on BSD it shows that with motivation, the *nix OS can be used. Problem is, Linux is just NOT the OS for the masses, and it still is no way close to being there. Many of the geek features of Linux are a complete turn off to non-geeks. Even more, something that wasn’t touched too much in this blog review was this. At present, these distros are adding in technology such as XGL, compiz, beryl etc. that really needs to be left out and tested more. These desktop effects are a disaster. And as this author notes, the average user does not give a damn about the reasons why or any excuses, they just expect things to work. Roll out Linux on a desktop PC for HP or Dell, and give people these results will lead to a complete disaster for Linux.
But then again, I am in the minority who thinks that Linux should just drop this desktop crap all together and focus on it’s core where it has found success. As I write this I am conducting a server migration with Linux that I would NEVER be able to do, or at least to do as painlessly, with any Windows server.
Different people have different standards. As a developer, I have very high demands for consistency, reliability, and maintainability. A novice might prefer simplicity and usability. Power users, it seems, like nice icons and smooth fonts. To each his own. The free software desktop will have an easier time appealing to the massive population of limited-needs users (including the corporate desktop market) and the strategically important population of developers than it will have attracting (demanding and useless) power users.
My definition of polish is that things work and work together as one would expect. I personally couldn’t care less if an icon isn’t as nice as it could be as long as it’s clear what the icon is supposed to represent. I know there’s a whole slew of people working on Tango, Oxygen, and other icon projects, and while I wouldn’t mind some more attractive icons, I think there’s way more important “polish” issues to be ironed out.
I’d like these X resolution detection bugs to go away and never come back. I’ve been editing XF86Config and xorg.conf for ten years, and it’s just embarrassing that we can’t lick this one. Xorg 7.3 can’t come soon enough, and I hope it lives up to its expectations.
From a desktop perspective, we’re currently in between the second and third generations of free software desktop technology. I switched to Linux as my predominant platform at the dawn of the second generation, characterized by the arrival of Mozilla and later OpenOffice. Many more with switch with the third generation, which will be characterized by modular applications and high-level abstractions.
Free software is about participation and network effects. It’s still too difficult for power users to contribute to application development. But tools like QtDesigner and PyQt/PyKDE are making free software development accessible to casual programmers and even first-time programmers. Programming is going to become a more universal skill as time goes on, and free software will capitalize on this trend, especially if we keep lowering the barriers and embracing modular development.
We used to get “Hah! Linux is a joke and will never make it on the desktop.” Now we get more of a “Sorry geeks, but Linux just isn’t there yet and won’t be for a long time.” I don’t see the Linux desktop having a breakout year in 2008, but it will be a damn fine product by that point in time. Some pretty fundamental aspects of the computer industry have to change if Linux rapidly gains marketshare, and that can’t happen over night. There’s only so much we can do as a community effort with little commercial exposure in the consumer market, and the OEMs and ISVs can only redefine their business models so quickly.
The higher-ups at IBM like to talk about Linux in terms of eventualities with no time frames. Linux will eventually run on the majority of computers. When? Nobody knows. Certainly not this decade, no matter how great the platform evolves over the next couple years. What Linux and the free software desktop need more than any feature, hardware support, or third-party application is time. We just need time to let this era of computing run its course while we continue to improve our platform under low marketshare conditions.
Eventually the market will come around due to some change that’s out of our control. Maybe Vista will be the OS that breaks the fat client’s back in the corporate space. Maybe politics will intercede (positively or negatively). Maybe personal computing will take on new shapes and sizes. Barring some unforeseen IP law changes, any change in the industry will be good for Linux and bad for Microsoft.
What is really comes down to is who is the thought leader in platform technology. You can lead by being the best, or you can lead by simply putting your ideas out there. One takes money, the other takes time. But if we lead, they’ll follow… eventually.
Well Butters I like having the fact that xorg.conf exists. I can get something working without hoping Nvidia has it in their anemic control panel.
Yes, TV-Out using component from my Nvidia 7600GT to my TV using a scart adaptor. I can’t for the life of me get this to work in Windows consistantly in XP and at all in Vista. I hope Xorg 7.3 still gives uis the option to use xorg.conf if we need as I don’t trust automation.
Another thing, I can get Nautilus to burn data DVD’s with no issue at all. Vista x64 can’t seem to do it as explorer just throws up file errors. Maybe something for Service Pack 1 later this year but definately not for now and I don’t want to have to install something like Nero which has a tendency to try and take over my system.
So I guess, from my point of view, Ubuntu x64 is as ready if not more so than Vista x64. There is the issue of certain apps that I like on Windows that Linux hasn’t but my dependence on them will be weaned some time in the not to distant future just as I have been weaned from MS Office (in a digital print production environment).
I think one of the big problems when asking if linux is ready is that we harp on every flaw, no matter how small (duplicate menu icons? Come on). Yes, there are problems. Nobody can deny that. But is it better than the alternatives? Is it easier than Windows? In many areas, yes. In some show-stopping areas (hardware support), no. I think that if people take the time to buy fully supported hardware the amount of problems is pretty small. It’s not going to be perfect, there will be a learning curve but it’s at the point where people can use it. I just installed in on a friends laptop and she recognizes the fact that she has fewer problems with Ubuntu than she does with Windows (not insignificantly, I recognize the fact that I get fewer tech support calls).
Duplicate icons was just an example. It’s a general lack of attention to detail which is the problem. Ubuntu doesn’t even have an artwork team. If you’re looking to get the world to use your operating system, you should at least find room in the budget to hire a designer who knows what they’re doing, rather than relying on community contributions.
Don’t ask if it’s on par with Windows, ask if it’s on par with OS X. Ubuntu doesn’t need to be as good as Windows, it needs to be better.
Ubuntu doesn’t even have an artwork team.
https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art
But by all means, do continue bitching.
I can recall that there was some controversy between Shuttleworth and the Art Team when Mark suddenly decided to recall all the hard work the Art Team had done for Edgy.
http://www.linux.com/article.pl?sid=06/11/14/1714241
Is it time to switch yet? Better read the ubuntuforums poll before you decide:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=414935
Interesting poll! Many thanks.
Doesn’t surprise me: I did a clean install and have noticed several little bugs which no doubt will be cleaned up over the next month or so as ppl write in.
Feisty’s okay.
> Don’t ask if it’s on par with Windows, ask if it’s on par with OS X.
I have been inside the Mac and Linux bubble for years, and yes these operating systems excel in their own tiny domains. But seriously, you are limiting your options if you are measuring an OS against OS X. What about things like application support? What about things like hardware support? What about considering usability issues that Apple chose to ignore or reject?
There is more to the world than Mac OS X.
[you should at least find room in the budget to hire a designer who knows what they’re doing]
Ohh so you purchased the Ubuntu and you are not getting world class product? STRANGE!!!
In some areas yep, I totally agree. In others, we’d clash. On the hardware however, I think people still want the ability to build a system based on the components they want rather than a subset. I think setting hardware requirements for infrastructure (i.e. servers, etc) is in fact needed. It affords you at a greater level of confidence on stability. On the desktop, I would agree with you that it could be a show stopper.
Edited 2007-04-22 08:31
/*I just installed in on a friends laptop and she recognizes the fact that she has fewer problems with Ubuntu than she does with Windows */
oh, i see, you convience her linux was better so you could keep her expensive windows apps for yourself so you would not have buy them,smart.
That’s a little silly don’t you think? The context of his comments suggests to me he’s an advocate of Linux, perhaps even a solid user. Why would he want to trick someone, a friend no less, only to take a Windows based application off her?
It doesn’t add up.
Hi,
For me this is the second time ubuntu ( version 6.06 was the first and since i’ve given up) messed up my boot partitions.
I started to install ubuntu onto a new extended partitions and wanted to keep the NT Boot Loader to boot all the Oses, but the only option I could see during the install process was the grub configuration that stated (hd0) (not very user friendly it is). I’ve tried to put there the new partition but at the end it failed and remarked some other partition has active.
I couldn’t make it boot again without the help of partition magic.
Anyway I’ve just found the instalation process of OpenSuse much more user friendly for the regular user.
At the end of the instalation it showed all the options it will use to instal.
Seems that our old friend GRUB is causing Ubuntu a lot of problems.
I brought up the subject of GRUB-related dual-booting problems in seeming excess, on the linuxforums dot org site, and was told that indeed GRUB is way-old, and there’s a new GRUB2 in the works somewhere!
I see FAR too many GRUB-related problems, and if I were Canonical, I’d seriously get my GRUB act together, and soon, coz it’s screwing up a lot of people and their Windoze data, and is not winning Ubuntu any friends!
I simply will not take the risk: I keep my two separate OSes right where they belong, on two separate HDs.
My system is primitive as hell (like me) but I plug and unplug those two as and when I see fit.
No GRUB BS for me.
just an fyi… but you can plug both drives in and still have it work without a boot-manager (assuming it is not a laptop… but even then, as long as it has a dual-drive you are cool)…
Your bios should have some key that loads up the boot menu… esc (if not set to bios), F10, or F12 seem to be the most common….
When it comes up, select “hard drive” from the list, and it will show you the installed drives and ask you to choose one.
Not all bios’ work that way, mind you, but all 7 of my PCs do… so even if you can’t use that, someone else probably can (not that it’s odd, just not something people tend to think about)
I also think this is a great release!
And I think feisty +1 will be even better!
I think feisty is an excellent release. I have so far installed it on two test pc’s. A compaq celeron 733mhz + 384mb ram. All hardware detected and working, inc sound and display at correct res. Its early days but the laptop feels really quick, and i have noticed that feisty doesnt seem to use as much ram on it. The compaq doesnt have wifi built in, i tried a pcmcia card but it didnt work. I then tried a usb wifi card and it worked fine, and as commented above seems to provide a more reliable connection. all of this without having to download anything.
The second pc is an old dell 1.7ghz 512mb ram, again no problems, it has a geforce2 which worked for for the wobbly windows and cube desktop effects.
Linux is getting more impressive every time!
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Time to switch? Ah, that must mean it is the first Sunday after a release of Ubuntu.
I’m sure 7.04 is very good, but if you have the time and inclination I’ve found a well-tweaked Debian Testing superior to Ubuntu (so far – no guarantee that won’t change). Besides, I tried an early beta of Kubuntu 7.04: it trashed my mbr and failed to install grub at all so I was left with an unbootable system and tiresome repair work. I think I’ll wait till a lot more user feedback is in before trying 7.04 a second time.
These “reviews” are pretty much just brief impressions in the way of the internet. Is the first one, on olmweb, a hoax or spoof? It certainly reads like one. The guy says he’s an “old fart” – with two apartments – but rites with the incredibil grasp of spellin and grammer of a fourteen year-old. And! Loads! Of!! His laptop seems in dubious condition for any review and much of what he tried with Ubuntu didn’t work, necessitating work-arounds that a new user wouldn’t know how to perform. Ho hum.
The second review, on zdnet, makes a very good point, and one that so far no Linux distro seems to have answered convincingly:
What the Ubuntu dev team need to do is find, I don’t know, 100 people who aren’t Linux geeks and stick them in front of the OS. Use these people to get feedback on different aspects of the OS. As soon as users start to look confused, scared or go bug-eyed then something needs tweaking.
This doesn’t sound so difficult. Microsoft and Apple must do this stuff as a matter of course. So why not Linux? It’s the kind of question one can imagine Michael Dell asking Mark Shuttleworth.
They get plenty of that kind of feedback, problem is upstream dev’s refuse to acknowledge there is a problem – Gnome anyone? And plenty of zealots are lined up ready to jump on anyone that suggests certain things could be better in Ubuntu!
Just have a read through Gutsy Gibon(Next Realese) dev pages on Ubuntu forums, 90% of the great ideas and requests relate to Gnome. Most of them regurgitated over and over again ad nauseum and ignored
And to add my bit
Feisty’s a nice distro, I’m running it now, but it’s far from ready for most windows users to make the switch, Ubuntu forums couldn’t cope with the problems, although it would probably do wonders for a service/support based business model
~~
They get plenty of that kind of feedback, problem is upstream dev’s refuse to acknowledge there is a problem – Gnome anyone? And plenty of zealots are lined up ready to jump on anyone that suggests certain things could be better in Ubuntu!
Actually, Gnome does do usability testing. And responds to it. I remember videos going around the net showing new users being told to do different tasks in Gnome to see how intuitive it was. I couldn’t find direct links but they are probably somewhere here:
http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/
Just because they ignore the endless complaints of ex-Windows power-users on Ubuntuforums doesn’t mean that they aren’t listening to anybody. I’ve seen the ideas for Gutsy Gibbon. Some of them are good ideas, but many are just “Windows/OSX do it like this, why can’t we?” When somewone explains why it’s not a good idea they just get called zealots.
“The second review, on zdnet, makes a very good point, and one that so far no Linux distro seems to have answered convincingly:
What the Ubuntu dev team need to do is find, I don’t know, 100 people who aren’t Linux geeks and stick them in front of the OS.”
This is a bloody obvious idea and has already been done with Gnome and a few other projects.
The real problem is you also need thousands of pounds and years of developers time to implement the obvious things that need work. Just pointing out what’s wrong helps no one.
Do you really imagine no one has thought that more hardware support would be a good idea? Or that total file compatibility with proprietary office and email software would be neat? Or that booting faster would be nice? Or that an inexperienced user should never, ever, have to use the terminal?
Perhaps it’s just me, but I don’t think “average users” have some magical ability to see flaws that other people cannot. The ‘geeks can’t see what’s wrong’ idea is a myth and distracts from the real problem of resources.
Sorry. Rant over.
I find it very interesting how people diss Ubuntu because it’s not akin to Windows/OSX. Can I just reiterate that Ubuntu is not Windows/OSX?
Ubuntu and other non-commercial Linux distros aren’t marketed as immensely as Win/OSX, and in no way did they ever intend to make the whole world use their distros (I’ve read a comment that assumed Ubuntu wanted the world to use it).
It is a testament to how much Ubuntu has grown, though, that people make these assumptions and is highly critical of it (as with any other high-profile product, Windows and OSX included).
Curious comments indeed… seems like you may have assumed an assumption has been made. Please take a look at ubuntu bug one (famous among geeks).
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1 “Microsoft has a majority market share” reported by: Mark Shuttleworth.
Although the goal “to make the whole world use their distros” is not explicitly stated, it isn’g not too difficult to infer (Ubuntu was designed to fix this bug). And since marketing and user friendliness are mentioned explicitly here, I find no fault when people “diss” it based on glaring flaws and omissions. In fact, I consider your comment about the lack of marketing a valid “diss”. In order for Ubuntu to close this bug they will have to endure a heck of a lot more criticism than they have received on osnews today. And I’m glad, Ubuntu isn’t anywhere near ready for the masses, but it is improving. To quote Jello Biafra “We can’t grow if we don’t criticize ourselves.”
If it wasn’t for already having switched to Mac OS X I’d be using Ubuntu as my main desktop. The latest relese is very nice and I fully expect the next LTS release (probably 8.04) to bring over a lot of Windows XP refuges from the dark side.
Time to switch? Not for me. I still haven’t found one good compelling reason to switch to linux full time. I install it, I play with it a bit to see what new features are in the latest distro, and once I’ve done that I sit there and ask myself “What do I do now?” If linux wants me to switch they are going to need to convince me on why I would want to ditch my Windows set up thats already installed and configured they way I like it.
Some of the applications I use in Windows are not available for linux and I also like using some of the instant messaging programs for the extra features they have like file sharing, video conferencing, and greater assortment of emoticons.
What the Ubuntu dev team need to do is find, I don’t know, 100 people who aren’t Linux geeks and stick them in front of the OS. Use these people to get feedback on different aspects of the OS. As soon as users start to look confused, scared or go bug-eyed then something needs tweaking. If your average home user is going to look at Ubuntu as an alternative to Windows or Mac, all these geeky corners have to be smoothed out.
If and when a distro does this in the interest of gaining desktop ground, they will succeed.
The results will be different depending on whether the 100 users:
– Haven’t used a computer before.
– Are Windows users.
– Are Mac users.
The Windows and Mac users will be looking for ways to do what they’re using to doing in their usual OS. That means that the only way to avoid them looking confused is for the Linux UI to be very similar to what they’ve already used. The first group is the easiest, and best judge, as you’re finding out what is truly most (or least) intuitive for someone who isn’t already “trained” a certain way.
The problem is, the vast majority of people who could use a computer fall in the second and third groups.
I use both OS X and Linux. Working between the two is extremely transparent.
Both the previous and latest Kubuntu live CD will boot an Intel-based Mac Mini and it recognizes all devices including wireless and bluetooth.
There is absolutely no reason to run McSoft products. It’s just getting people past the Redmond `marketing` hype, showing them how the *nix world does things as-well-as getting them to trust computing again.
Edited 2007-04-22 16:00
I will continue to run Fedora the entire hysteria over Ubuntu is unfounded.
In the server world Red Hat is #1 and running Fedora on your laptop just makes logical sense plus you can test and so on.
Ubuntu has to many problems.
Edited 2007-04-22 17:16
I’ve been using Ubuntu since Warty, and switched over completely from Windows XP when Hoary was released. (I still run WinXP in a VM for the rare occasion when I need to run a Windows-only program). Each release has improved, of course.
My upgrade from Edgy to Feisty wasn’t smooth but only because I didn’t remove customizations I had made with beryl before upgrading. (One I “purged” beryl and reinstalled my problems went away.) VMWare took applying patches to (to be expected with a new kernel version). But everything else went like clockwork.
Unlike another poster on this forum, I find Feisty to be MUCH more responsive than Edgy. Apps run noticeably faster. Maybe I didn’t have Edgy configured properly or something, because I’m truly surprised by the speed increase.
I use Beryl, but found that Heliodor (which allows you to use Metacity themes) is more stable and faster than Emerald, so I use that instead.
Time to switch? Well, that depends. I think that if you’re a new computer user and you have access to someone who is familiar with Linux, then yes, go with Ubuntu. If you’re a pseudo-power-Windows-user (who likes to tweak your system but doesn’t have a fundamental understanding of computer systems in general), then moving to Linux can be frustrating because you don’t know how to do all the little tricks you’ve learned over the years on Windows–so be prepared for a learning curve (not because Linux is more difficult, but just becaues it’s different). It helps to have someone who knows Linux to ask for help — just like a completely new computer user needs someone who knows Windows around if they’re going to tackle that. (That’s where some of the “Windows is easier for newbies than Linux” comes from. It’s not. It’s just that people are more likely to have someone around who knows Windows to help them when they’re starting out.)
Issues I’ve encountered this time with Xubuntu, roughly in order of appearance:
– Widescreen monitor resolution not detected properly, as usual. (More on this below.)
– Terminal has some bad echo lag not seen in previous releases.
– Firefox UI fonts are blurry compared to the rest of the UI. Turns out this is fixed by checking the Subpixel Hinting (or something) checkbox in XFCE’s UI settings.
– Firefox opens links in new windows, even though I have it set to open in new tabs.
– Firefox autoscrolling tends to snag. Stop-and-go.
– Firefox profile import (chosen during installation) didn’t work right; I was started up with a fresh blank profile. Got around this by copying my profile folder over manually and running “firefox -p” to make a new profile using said folder.
– Themes/extensions don’t seem installable from disk. The Windows method of drag-drop into the Add-Ons manager wouldn’t work. Also, a website for picking and installing add-ons from disk wouldn’t work either. (This is an issue because I’ve customized some add-ons for myself. But copying the profile folder got around this too.)
– Attempted to get full widescreen resolution by installing 915resolution. Haven’t done it in a while though, so didn’t remember all the steps to automate it. Eventually got it working, but due to a step where all my fonts were changed to size 9 automatically at 1024×768 resolution, and my manually changing them back to 12 once full res was attained, Firefox UI fonts are now stuck at three sizes larger than the rest of the UI, no matter how I change sizes in XFCE settings. Complete uninstall-reinstall of Firefox, including profile removal, didn’t fix it. Blargh.
– Suspend doesn’t seem to work quite right, and is no quicker than a normal startup on recovery. Also, after recovery only a 1024×768 box is shown of the widescreen desktop at a time, though you can move the view around to get to each corner.
– I can somehow access the internet by wireless, despite the Network Manager saying the wireless interface isn’t active. I presume I was leeching someone’s open network, since I hadn’t supplied my own network’s password. Btw, is WPA still unavailable out of the box? How about WPA2? I haven’t gotten that far yet.
I think that’s all so far… hope I didn’t forget anything. But yeah, it hasn’t been all smooth sailing. :/
I installed ubuntu in vmware 5.5.3, upon reboot after installation i found that it hangs. Definitely NOT ready for prime time.
And Windows XP bluescreens when installing under accelerated QEMU, so what? Maybe you shouldn’t blame emulator problems on the OS, which is intended for real computers.
As quite a few people use VMWare for testing purposes, they should have made sure ubuntu was working smoothly under it. I AM testing ubuntu server, i’ve heard ubuntu desktop actually works, however.
if OSNews is any indication. I have Fiesty on my 3 primary machines and all 3 installs went smoothly (fresh install with an existing home partition and backed up /etc).
Though I had no problems I am not terribly surprised that others were not so fortunate. I researched my hardware beforehand; I knew what to expect and what needed to be done to get myself to an operational system. I do not expect to be able to stick an install disk into a random system and get an operational install. While Linux installs on a lot more hardware of late, the habits I picked up from the early days still serve me well.
If you want to install on some random machine it is likely to work, but it is still a crap shoot. Honestly people trying to install on hardware known to have problems and failing will get little sympathy from me. A little research before hand would have saved them the grief and me from their persistent whining on the forums. If you want to be serious about running Linux though, know your hardware and what the limitations of that hardware are on Linux. (In the vast majority of the cases it is not Linux not supporting the vendor, but the vendor not supporting Linux.)
I applaud and encourage people to try Linux, but don’t do it blind. Research and know what you are getting into. If you do not have the will to research prior to install I think you will likely also fail to stay on Linux in the long run in any case. Linux takes time and knowledge to go beyond a box for browsing the web and checking mail. If you do not have the will to learn something new then it will not work out.
So to recap: Decide why you want to switch. Then figure out whether you can do what you need to do on a Linux install and if what you will lose (if anything) is worth your reason for switching. Research, plan, execute. Fail to do all three and you will probably be back in Windows inside a month.
Edited 2007-04-22 21:16
And they’re true – Linux does NOT support BRAND NEW PROPRIETARY LAPTOPS with BRAND NEW technology out of the box.
And it will NEVER support such things UNTIL the corporations get tired of working around Microsoft’s problems and start demanding Linux.
Then they will demand that their hardware suppliers like Dell and HP support Linux.
And THEN those suppliers will start pressuring their peripheral manufacturers to provide tested and certified drivers for Linux.
And THEN the average CONSUMER will be able to buy a laptop with Linux ON it, already configured for their hardware.
This is ALL going to happen. It is NOT a “chicken-and-egg” situation where the corporations will not migrate to Linux until there are adequate drivers. Corporations don’t care about adequate drivers – they have more important issues to deal with – issues which Linux can solve handily. When corporations want Linux, they will GET adequate drivers.
Besides which, while most corporations may have laptops, mostly they have common three-year-old desktops which Linux TODAY supports almost perfectly – as the critical article admitted. These guys ALWAYS criticize Linux using the latest and greatest LAPTOP – ever notice that? They never try Linux on a vanilla two-year-old desktop with no consumer entertainment hardware on it. In other words, the sort of machine sitting on every CORPORATE desktop – and the one sitting on mine.
One way to speed up the solution to this driver issue is if the big outfits making billions off Linux – IBM and HP in particular – would start pressuring – or even paying – for driver development by the manufacturers who make their systems.
Somebody needs to bite the bullet on this because Linux is not going away and Linux and OSS can solve the problems Microsoft has caused for corporations and end users and the IT industry in general.
Everybody knows in their gut that Microsoft needs to go away – NOW. And the only alternative is Linux – and conceivably Mac (but only if Mac OS price comes down and it runs on commodity hardware.)
Meanwhile, these articles debating whether “Linux is ready for the desktop” are boring, repetitive, juvenile, inaccurate, misleading, and shallow.
Enough already!
I do not want the drivers written by the vendors because it will be locked down bug ridden horrible code.
If they opened up for the OSS to write the drivers or have them GPL’d or whatever would be the best choice by far.
I have Fedora Core 6 installed on my workstation/laptop at work and it works like a charm. I do not recall Windows working very well with the latest hardware and once the drivers are written they are rarely updated leaving generations of bugs at bay.
Most Linux distro’s are more than ready for the desktop and SuSE has the best chance since they have really polished up SLED/SLES and now Red Hat is wanting a piece of the desktop action.
Lastly, like anything else word of mouth among systems guru’s like myself is not the answer marketing will be the savior for any Linux distro. I would like to see what the market would do if for example Red Hat, SuSE or even Canonical software vendors had a tv commercial that aired explaining to the end user how stable and easy to use their product is (like Apple does).
Ubuntu is making waves, they may not be the best distro but they are trying in which Dell is trying to win over the Linux community by stirring the pot about pre-installing it which will never happen IMO.
Most Linux distro’s are more than ready for the desktop
The “ready for the desktop” argument always misses the point by a mile. The large number of desktop Linux users proves that Linux is perfectly capable as a desktop OS. The problem is that there is generally no demand because the majority of users in the dominant Windows desktop ecosystem are simply not looking for a replacement.
Many Linux advocates seem to think this demand can be artificially created through marketing and distribution by large vendors and specifically by those vendors offering Linux PCs at a cheaper price than their Windows counterparts to emphasize the freeness (as in beer) of their choice OS. This seems to be a dubious practice at best and a harmful one at worst because unsuspecting users may buy these cheaper PCs only to find that they will not support certain pieces of software or peripherals and will be forever soured by their Linux experience.
I do love Linux and even though my company produces Windows/Xbox360 game middleware, we use Linux on a number of machines here. I just wish the vocal Linux advocates would calm down a bit, take a step back, and realize what a great thing has been produced by a very dedicated community that is not based on a hatred for Microsoft or a quest for global market share, but on a love for computing, a joy for sharing, and the reward of participating in a global project.
Linux in specific and OSS in general are relatively new to humanity. In terms of computing, we certainly live in interesting times and I, for one, am looking forward to seeing how it all turns out.
[Southern.Pride: This post is not targeted at you. I just latched on to your ‘ready for the desktop’ remark as a suitable point to make my reply]
I totally agree with you about the TV commercial. I too would like to see them semi-naked girlies advertise Ubuntu.
Can anyone remember the impact the RedHat advert had during the superbowl a few years ago ? And the amount of people who switched to Firefox after they ran a full page advert in the New York Times ?
Ubuntu does need to get on the marketing bandwagon, but, what amazed me the most, was when I tried to download Feisty the day it was released… the servers were bogged down by the amount of other people downloading it. I was getting 3kb per second.
In the end, I gave up, and got a copy from a guy who downloaded it during the night.
We had queues of people, maybe 150-200 people wanting a copy of it that day in work. Others have asked for a copy after they heard their friends talking about it.
Now imagine the impact if a Ubuntu advert was stuck on during the break in Coronation Street,(UK), or Simpsons (US).
I just tried Kubuntu7.04. It is really a slick distro with lots to recommend it. The really big thing that drives me crazy is the crippled root account and the changes made in the normal names and designation of the file systems.
For instance, Parallels will install but the changes made to the filesystem makes it nearly impossible to compile the drivers. On the Parallels site are new scripts to install in various files, however, one has to be in the root/file manager to replace them, but there is no root account.
I just can’t see learning to use a crippled distro!
Maddening!
penguin7009
I totally agree it is crippled and this is one of the many reasons I do not like Ubuntu and the fact the installer is terrible. But when you do not praise this distro you get attacked or it has become the Windows of the Linux distro world.
To me Fedora is so simple and refined compared to Ubuntu or Kubuntu or Buntu madness!
Lastly the jungle bongo drums make no sense along with listing the time zones with Africa first (is this what Ubnutu is bringing us)???
Oh yeah I forgot the USA needs to be crippled to give away jobs and money to 3rd world countries who have been ruled by greedy dictators and regimes. But as usual it is our fault, they need everything we have worked for ‘FREE’…
No thanks, the brainwashed masses can praise it no different than Windows zombies.
Edited 2007-04-22 22:27
You do realise that to install Windows in a non-US locale requires you to tell the Windows installer 4-5 times that you are not in the US.
And as for Africa being at the top of the list, it does have the advantage of having a name that begins with A. What right does the USA have to always be at the top of any list?
Either way Ubuntu is not the ultimate Linux distro by any means and I do not live in Africa nor would I have any desire to.
Yes the USA needs to be at the top of the list because Africa does not even have electricity much less computers!
Well, I hope to god that you were joking in that last statement.
As far as Ubuntu being the best distro around, that is a matter of opinion and I won’t argue with your opinion.
You are right Ubuntu is not the ultimate distro. There is no ultimate distro, just choices.
And don’t take this personally, but insulting other nationalities with sweeping generalizations is really annoying. Would it be possible for you to recognize that not everyone lives in the U.S. and show some courtesy?
The time zone list is in alphabetical order, this is not an insult to the U.S..
You know whats funny? Ever seen the list with America prefixing many countries who are not even in its time zone?
Edited 2007-04-22 23:22
Does it really make a difference who heads the list first?
Suppose Antarctica was to head the list would you feel the same way ? They have researchers over there with computers don’t they ? However small and insignificant that might be.
The guy who heads Ubuntu is South African.Basic logic would dictate to me that he would want to input a feel of something he was familiar with.
Whats more , Linux touts on customize-ability.Don’t like the drums? Change it.
Edited 2007-04-22 23:24
sudo su –
You might try searching or reading man pages. Many advocate leaving root disabled but if you are not caapable of living without root there is a somewhat involved procedure to get it working:
sudo passwd root
as far as “changes made in normal names and designation of file systems” I assume you mean the change in fstab to use UUID rather than device name? You are aware this is not a Ubuntu specific thing right? Pretty much any distro that uses kernel 2.6.20 or above will be using UUID (or worked around the change using udev).
It is indeed maddening when people whinge without actually seeing what could be done or why things have changed.
Edited 2007-04-22 22:29
Need I say “apt-get install sux” for all your root needs!!
Yeah it bugs the hell out of me too, but just do this in the console:
sudo passwd root
then set the root password to whatever you want.
or if you are just interested in a root shell for the current session then run:
sudo -s
and you will be given a root shell to work with =)
Sorry if I got a flame war started. AFIK the reason the “root” account was disabled was to prevent new users moving to Linux from destroying their OS?
While this might be a good thing, wouldn’t it be better to keep Linux Systems the same as far as the structure of the file systems and teach users HOW to use them properly.
Linux is a great Operating System and getting better all the time. Changes are bound to happen as it progresses and Ubuntu/Kubuntu et al are very good distros.
However, there are already mulitiple differences in Linux in general and doesn’t this Sudo thing just add another fragmentation to the mix?
Now Parallels and other devs are going to have to deal with new uneeded file system structures and names in addition to .rpm/.deb/targz etc. Seems counterproductive?
penguin7009
It wouldn’t be the internet if there wasn’t a fire roasting somewhere.
sudo was originally created for BSD on VAX in the 80’s, making the sudo command predate Linux by a good bit.
The purpose of sudo is to help provide accountability as well as a certain measure of security for commands which must run as root. It provides and audit of the commands used as well as having the ability to restrict what commands a user can perform. It was not created to protect the users from themselves so much as to allow administration of large multiuser systems in such a way that an administrator did not have to have full root access to perform his duties.
sudo is available on Solaris, OS X, BSD, Linux, and AIX at a minimum. Not too sure on other platforms. So you see, the availability and use of sudo is hardly out of the ordinary for *nix. It is just not as common in the Linux world.
Ubuntu has a long way to go to beat PCLinux ease of operation.
PCLinux downright stomps MS Windows and easily out performs Ubuntu/Kubuntu.
Just my 2 cents!
Out of the box maybe…..
However, PCLinuxos falls over too easily when you try to add software to it.
Being rpm based it is far more unstable than deb based systems, and the default texstar repositories are limited.
Add 3rd party repos in there and you start to get dependency hell.
It allows me to tell Nvidia drivers to output TV via component. I can’t get that with Nvidia drivers in XP or Vista.
I do think there needs more standardisation between the Linux distros in file system layout and configuration, most could learn from Arch Linux with its configration simplicity but Linux is a hell of a lot more usable now than 5 years ago.
Slow load times and poor font quality of OpenOffice.org when compared to for example, Microsoft Office and iWork.
I couldn’t agree more. That’s why I just installed Codeweaver’s Crossover Linux and Office XP. Works like a charm and fonts aren’t an issue. At least until OO.o gets the font issues corrected, this is the only real solution I have found. And one hell of a good one at that.
There is oooqs available to download, this brings the speed of opening OpenOffice up to par with MSOffice on Windows.
BTW… why does MSOffice open quicker under Wine than it does under Windows ?
I can tolerate the load times because once its loaded, the wait is over for the day. What I can’t tolerate is fonts that have poor kerning/antialias/hinting. The font rendering in OO is just abysmal. Its a shame because I really like the package on Windows.
As to why MS Office loads faster under Wine than XP itself, I have no idea. But I notice that too. Quite odd to say the least. I am in awe of the genius that is Wine and crossover linux.
I wanted to try Ubuntu, but the installation runs in 24-bit graphics mode, something Virtual PC can not handle. So no Ubuntu for me (the trick to change the video mode in installation by hitting the console and alter the X-Windows parameters does not work either).
Unfortunately… I cannot switch from 6.10 to 7.04 all though I’d love to… Reason is My ATI XPRESS 200M card with Beryl doesn’t work in 7.04. While I tried a lot to play with 7.04 for Beryl with ATI 8.36.5 drivers it simply doesn’t work. It does configures display with ATI drivers but never works with Beryl… I also tried the drivers shipped with 7.04 – 8.28.5 but they also just configure display never work with Beryl…
So I move back to Edgy and 8.35.5 and 8.36.5 both are working well with Beryl… so for me I still have to stick with Edgy. Infact my guess is most of the ATI users with XPRESS 200M have to stick to Edgy if they want Beryl running.
While I was checking the new 7.04 I didnot find any visible difference between Edgy & Feisty.
I’ve read these reviews, and frankly, they don’t address the right issues for me here.
If Joe User is going to use Ubuntu, then he won’t be the one installing it.
An average joe user should never install their own operating system. Most don’t; Dell or some other PC manufacturer already install the OS, the drivers and software needed to get a system going. Unfortunately, Bill Gates, in his effort to get Windows to the masses, made Windows installs look easy. They’re not, not by any stretch.
I’d like to do (or see) a review in which I pit Windows Vista or XP vs Ubuntu on the same hardware, and see how much time, effort, energy, and trouble it takes before both are installed for use with a “average” home user.
I think then would be the telling tale as to how easy Windows is to install.
You’re right. I’ve installed Windows so many times on so many machines that I sometimes forget this. My most recent install was on an Abit board with ICPlus ethernet, ULi chipset, RealTek audio, ATI Radeon graphics and a Canon N1220U scanner. I had to configure these devices with Windows. I know what I am doing so it seems simple. But you are right, its not.
On Ubuntu, everything was properly configured and worked on first boot. My experience has been extremely positive in terms of install/hardware support with Ubuntu Feisty. It seems the biggest complaints are coming from the laptop users.
What strikes me is how efficient Ubuntu is with memory use. And boy is the system fast. I have an Athlon 3200 and Ubuntu is damn fast on my machine. I am very pleased.
I agree with both of you.
When installing Windows I would prefer it to ask all the questions it needs and then install the OS. (I do not know if this has changed in Vista.)
The only adjustment I have done is…
Creating a folder called applications in my home folder and installing some of my apps there like on MacOS X.
And creating a short cut to my .wine folder for my windows apps.
Is it time to switch? … Well for me yes.
After 24hours running BOINC, surfing, emails, writing documents, google earth. Out of 994.5MB of ram 262.8MB has been used. No swap file used.
You know, the last “review” listed had so many spelling mis-takes I quit reading it…….how can you take someone seriously if they post kindergarten write-ups like this?