A federal judge largely approves a proposed settlement in the years-old antitrust case. The government praised the decision, while critics said the case should have looked at what Microsoft’s up to now. It may not be completely over, yet; the remaining states could appeal.
Judge OKs most of Microsoft Settlement
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Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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These things happen in our legal system.
Life goes on!
ciao
yc
this is a good decission.
Should we all just jump off the earth now or wait until Bill Gates is Supreme Dictator of all the Bits and Bytes? It sickens me that there was a settlement at all, but this affirmation of a simple slap on the wrist just makes one wonder. Have they all just lost their minds? Do they want Redmond dictating what will be on your box and when and how you can and cannot use it? The rest of the world seems to understand this, and they are quickly moving to Free/Open systems. We in America head for the nearest cliff like an empty-headed lemming. So, rest easy my fellow Americans, Bill Gates is the steward of your PC.
blame him..
all the big computer comapnies (not the punny desktopers) are selling servers running Linux, and the proprietary Unix platforms will be fully compatable wiht Linux.
the PC market is not the future…a networked home with Cobalt type drop in servers and wirless clients that serve multimedia and web access to the home owners on there end tables, on the TV, and universal PnP with the entertainment center will be what the future is.
Linux fits that very well as it is an open platform for hardware makers to put a wonderfully user friendly system together on. look at Tivo..well old Tivo…now the subscription crap has gotten in the way…nice and easy to use. OEone might be an interface for a web tabblet on your end table where you get can control your radio, cd player, mp3 jukeboxs, tv, etc from…and while your not using it, you have a digital picture frame.
home of paid off
Since Microsoft doesn’t have to open the source code to their API’s, they can continue to limit the ability or stability of other programs in favor of their own. Ouch.
I’ve written many Win32/MFC based applications. Problems that occur because of instabilities don’t occur because of stuff Microsoft does. These problems occur because of bad code and weak understanding of the API.
Both of which are correctable w/o MS releasing their source code…so stop crying and start studying and experimenting.
Kevin
Wait.. I live in Canada, anyways, all of us seem to hate Microsoft for wanting to conquer the whole computer world, yet all of us are hoping that products to clone Microsoft’s efforts will take over. Ok so much for learning from the past.
dude…I am not talking about a windows clone crap…I am talking about a totaly hidden system…like…you do not know you are running Linux sort of thing…like you do not install applications the way they are installed today…hell even MS is moving to platform indipendence….
Stop blaming George Bush. Bush is only a member of the executive branch of government, his job is to enforce laws, not create them. If anyone is to blame, it is the judicial branch. Then again, there really isn’t a particularly good alternative to windows which is as easy to use, and as well understood as microsoft itself understands their own product. Nothing looks stupider than Linux advocates and members of these so called “Linux companies” who fumble when asked how to do simple things on the KDE/Gnome desktop interface. It really makes them not only look foolish, but also shows how unproductive linux really is in the office environment. As insecure as Windows may be, you have to give it credit for being consistent over the years, it still works fairly integrated and the interface has undergone gradual change allowing users to adapt, rather than the radical, chaotic, unpredictable change of linux. Until someone writes a more consistent interface, and replacement for X11, similar to what Apple did with OSX, I don’t think Linux will ever be a competitive desktop to windows.
Though from what I understand, this decision would give OEMs the freedom to put competing OSs on the computers they sell, that really has no bearing since MS pretty much destroyed all of the competition a long time ago.
Now the only ones left to compete are the knock-off, wanna-be Linux ditros that nobody wants.
Well this is both a good and a bad thing. It does open the possibility for some competition to arise, within the next five years offcourse. Maybe the penalties were not harsh enough, from a windows hater’s perspective at least (and there does seem to be a lot of us).
This is not just about making it easier for MS competition. This SHOULD HAVE been about proper disipline of a company that was indeed found guilty of breaking the law(s).
Despite your feeling of MS or their products, how can anyone consider a company not resposible for its actions a good thing? Especially one of such size. That is exactly why we have *cough* laws *cough* to protect us.
Makes me sick =(
err.. make that responsible =)
But just another example of how the US government is for big business NOT for the people, as one is led to believe in the US educational system. Long gone is the myth – that the US government, is “government of the people, by the people and for the people.” as once stated by Abraham Lincoln.
Now all we have to look forward to is even more draconian Eulas by big business controlling what we put on our computers and how we use our computers. Maybe after 20 years in this business its time to become a farmer. But of course then there is Monsanto.
His justice department is the one who put the softball sized settlement proposal up there instead of pursuing further litigation when the first case was thrown out by a superior court. If his justice department (part of the executive branch for those not up on US government structure) therefore dropped the ball and forced this 9-state lawsuite issue.
> Stop blaming George Bush. Bush is only a member of the
> executive branch of government, his job is to enforce laws,
> not create them.
Well, Bush appointed Ashcroft as the Attorney General, and he is very happy with the settlement:
“Attorney General John Ashcroft praised the ruling. “The court’s decision is a major victory for consumers and businesses, who can immediately take advantage of the final judgment’s provisions,” Ashcroft said in a statement released Friday afternoon.”
Here are the dumbest parts of this settlement in my opinion:
The decision eliminates the establishment of a technical committee to assess Microsoft’s compliance with the agreement. In its place, a corporate compliance committee — consisting of Microsoft board members — will make sure Microsoft lives up to the deal, the judge said.
Oh this is a great idea, let’s let the inmates run the asylum. Has self governance of for-profit entities ever been successful in driving what is good for the public instead of driving what is good for that company’s bottom line.
Gates said during three days of testimony in the antitrust case that the added penalties would unfairly confiscate Microsoft’s intellectual property, cause mass layoffs and force the company’s research and development efforts “into a 10-year period of hibernation.”
What a bogus threat this is, along with Balmer threatening to stop all future Windows development. I’d love to know how Gate’s team arrived at that number
The Real Solution
The only solution that would have worked has been dropped by the US Department of Justice. Microsoft needed to be divided along their truly independant product lines. Basically the application group becomes one company and the OS group becomes another company. Furthermore the licensing agreements for the development environment for the application company could not be any different from the licensing agreements for other parties.
This is the only way that Microsoft’s true monopolistic practices would have been taken care of. The browser debate has become a non-issue now, even though it is treated so highly in the current debate. Sadly this day will never come, and MS will get to have carte blanche to continue their big brother development project.
I said limiting, not sabotaging. Microsoft doesn’t have to do anything to keep an upper hand when the competition has to use up a lot of time experimenting (your word) to create a good program while Microsoft literally knows the API inside and out.
Though from what I understand, this decision would give OEMs the freedom to put competing OSs on the computers
they sell, that really has no bearing since MS pretty much destroyed all of the competition a long time ago.
Now the only ones left to compete are the knock-off, wanna-be Linux ditros that nobody wants.
Microsoft will just punish OEMs indirectly for preloading other OSs.
The american judicial system remains a puzzle to outsiders. Remember the Supreme court ruling on the Bush-Gore debacle? This MS ruling is nonsensical, of course.
nevertheless, I still admire Microsoft and what they have achieved business-wise. The primary reason why they are successful is because, they are smart, hardworking and relentless, not because they do illegal things. Its now up to the competition to step up and fight like men.
“The primary reason why they are successful is because, they are smart, hardworking and relentless, not because they do illegal things.
Only partially right…They are smart hardworking and relentless about doing illegal things.
[i]”Its now up to the competition to step up and fight like men.”,/i>
They already have been all along… too bad they wont be able to compete in a fair business climate.
It is often pointed out that Linux will play a hidden role in tommorows home appliances so MS will matter less & less in those interconnected toys of the future.
I have worked on networking technology that was to be integrated into such appliances, looking forward to it getting shipped, only to find out some months later that Linux had been replaced by WinCE or some other such MS …..
Did engineers ever do the switch, noooo. Obviously MS has a long reach & gets to change other companies product specs through some sort of pressure!
“Oh brother. Eventually people will realize how bad MS products really are. Kinda like online pop-up ads. Stupid.”
Who cares how bad they are? Those products sell, that’s the only thing that matters. There are no other priorities. The ‘intelligent customer’ is a horror that will never come true.
> The american judicial system remains a puzzle to outsiders. Remember
> the Supreme court ruling on the Bush-Gore debacle? This MS ruling is nonsensical,
> of course.
Actually, that would be the *Florida* Supreme Court. 😉
> nevertheless, I still admire Microsoft and what they have achieved business-wise.
> The primary reason why they are successful is because, they are smart, hardworking
> and relentless, not because they do illegal things. Its now up to the competition to
> step up and fight like men.
I agree.
> Oh this is a great idea, let’s let the inmates run the asylum.
Sounds like the Florida recounts all over again. The Florida Supreme Court whose members were all Democrats let the Democratic election officials in heavily Democratic counties count blank ballots as votes for their Democratic candidate.
Never mind the fact that the state judiciary branch has zero authority in the election *and* that the partial recounts violated several election laws written by the body which was specifically empowered by the federal constitution to oversee the election process.
The Democrats were not even able to prove that their theories about the chads was correct. No, we were just supposed to take *their* word that *their* theories were correct and that *their* candidate should receive votes for both blank ballots and also ballots which had been marked for other candidates.
The real shame is that we allow people who have no respect for election law to call themselves “Democrats.” And yes, I know I am getting way off-topic here, but we are nearing election time in the US. 😉
God, what a sad, sad day.
Here’s hoping the European Union succeeds where the asshat american DoJ didn’t.
There is a huge diference of disclosure of the API and revelation of source code of parts of windows.
API Disclusure means only that M$ should publish the interfaces of all programmable usable API that are used/implemented in the Windows OS.
There ins’t any need to reveal one line of code to do that! [of course, c++ and c# examples would be of use, but that is examples of use, not code of what is behind].
The same happens with file formats… but alas…
the implications this gives…
During the Clinton impeachment hearings some Republican
gasbag got up and reminded us of what he thought waas the the larger importance of what was at stake.
( please ensure no food or beverage is in your mouth
before reading the next sentence)
” If America is to remain the _only country in the World
where the Rule of Law is important…”
yes, while the rest of the World whirls in Anarchy
( I really feel sorry for those poor Scandinavian countries- having to do without the Rule of Law and all) or Tyranny, the US Justice System gives us such gems of
jurisprudence as OJ, Gore-Bush @Florida 2000, and now
the MS-DOJ settlement.
In the end Madge ( of Palmolove fame) may have the last
word.
Corruption?
we’re soaking in it now.
Bottom line,this ruling makes Linux more important than
ever.
Emancipate a friend today cos friends don’t let
friends use Windows.
I still don’t agree with this settlement. I don’t think there should be any settlement. I think there shouldn’t be antitrust laws. Hmmmm…
“We’re perplexed that she didn’t recognize that Microsoft’s antitrust violations today extend far beyond the browser, into other technologies and markets,” Wasch said.
Poor thing. File another suit. This suit is about Netscape vs. Internet Explorer. Yes, only one sourgrape filed a antitrust suit in 1998. Not all three.
Besides guys, is there anywhere I could download the memorandum?
Robert B.: Do they want Redmond dictating what will be on your box and when and how you can and cannot use it?
No, you, as the consumer, dictate that. If you don’t want Windows, BTW, don’t buy a machine without it. You want Windows? Then you can’t dictate to Microsoft how you want it. Don’t like it the way Microsoft makes it to be? Don’t buy it! The ultimate power of the consumer.
HagerR15: Since Microsoft doesn’t have to open the source code to their API’s, they can continue to limit the ability or stability of other programs in favor of their own. Ouch.
I’m quite sure you want it to be open source so it can be ported to Linux, but neevr mind. Can you prove to me ONE instance where it is proven Microsoft delibrately changed/remove a API that only killed its competitor’s applications? The (stupid) reasoning behind the opening up of the API is for rivals to fully take advantage of Windows, when those API, most of the time, is not needed.
Annonymous: Until someone writes a more consistent interface, and replacement for X11, similar to what Apple did with OSX, I don’t think Linux will ever be a competitive desktop to windows.
Sorry to break it to ya, Linux being successful on the desktop has nothing to do with the UI (was Windows close to being easy to use when it started dominating the market?). Linux is winning it the same way Windows won it: price. Very soon, Linux would overtake Mac OS, and later on break Microsoft monopoly…
Darius: Now the only ones left to compete are the knock-off, wanna-be Linux ditros that nobody wants.
And Be is better than that? Heck, at least those knock-offs have better web browsers.
cer: But just another example of how the US government is for big business NOT for the people, as one is led to believe in the US educational system. Long gone is the myth – that the US government, is “government of the people, by the people and for the people.” as once stated by Abraham Lincoln.
Who is behind those big businesses? Who have jobs there? Who have shares in that company? You guess right: people.
What a bogus threat this is, along with Balmer threatening to stop all future Windows development. I’d love to know how Gate’s team arrived at that number
Specifically, it would give people time to give up on Windows, and allow Microsoft to come up with something new as a second chance. But as for Balmer’s threat, it is understandable. Other people, your competitors, would be controling Windows. And they aren’t for YOUR customers, they are for THEIR bottomline. In other words, customers loose out with the state’s settlement. I wrote a brief article about that:
Hank: The only solution that would have worked has been dropped by the US Department of Justice. Microsoft needed to be divided along their truly independant product lines. Basically the application group becomes one company and the OS group becomes another company.[..]
How would this help the consumers? Nothing. Nadda. The so-called applications company’s products normally depend on Windows profit for R&D, along with Office. Windows also depends on Office profit. Breaking up the companies would result in Microsoft being dead. Nothing else.
HagerR15: I said limiting, not sabotaging. Microsoft doesn’t have to do anything to keep an upper hand when the competition has to use up a lot of time experimenting (your word) to create a good program while Microsoft literally knows the API inside and out.
In case you didn’t know, Microsoft only uses new APIs when all it supported operating systems have it. Unless that product (i.e. Internet Explorer, Outlook Express) is considered a part of Windows. It is entirely possible to use the latest Win32 APIs, but little companies do for backward compatiblity with older versions of Windows.
Besides, who’s Microsoft competitors? Sun? Look at OpenOffice.org, call me when it at least uses some Win32 APIs. Netscape? Mozilla only uses Win32 (using the DLLs that exist way back to Win95, I’m guessing) when nessecary. Do these competitors dictate what Microsoft do with the APIs?
Kevin Craik: Microsoft will just punish OEMs indirectly for preloading other OSs.
The settlement removes all possible ways for Microsoft to “punish” OEMs. The only way is via optional apps like Office, which OEMs rarely bundle.
linux_baby: nevertheless, I still admire Microsoft and what they have achieved business-wise. The primary reason why they are successful is because, they are smart, hardworking and relentless, not because they do illegal things. Its now up to the competition to step up and fight like men.
Looks like the brainwashing sessions have been successful. Look at the pre-rajan and post-rajan results. Pre-rajan, linux_baby dislike anything Microsoft. 🙂
Annonymous: Only partially right…They are smart hardworking and relentless about doing illegal things.
Those “illegal” things wouldn’t be illegal if they have, say, 69% of the market. Microsoft is a victim of its own success. Antitrust laws punish successful companies by making them bow down to their incompetent competitors.
Stupid OSnews Pop-Up Ads: I can’t believe the reasons she gave. 6 months and this is what we get.
As a judge, you must contemplate everyone’s suggestions, views. With the Turney Act, that takes a long time.
Acheron: Here’s hoping the European Union succeeds where the asshat american DoJ didn’t.
The EU can only change how Windows is distributed in the EU. Nothing else.
http://www.osopinion.com/perl/story/17659.html
Sorry 🙁
rajan
sorry but maybe you dont remember the high price of using the phones during the monoploy of ma bell… i shutter to think of the internet with ma bell in charge.
anti trust laws protect when applied correctly.
btw i wasnt alive during ma bell but i read history and talk with parents and others who were around. the phone system is much better now than it was then.
yabadabadebian
never ceases to amaze me how quick peeps are to call others names. its not like there is a shortage of democratic windbags. other than that i agree with you
.
“never ceases to amaze me how quick peeps are to call others names. its not like there is a shortage of democratic windbags.”
For Sure. Did not mean to suggest that gasbag and Republican are synonyms, tho a case might be made for politicians and gasbags.
But I have to admit you may be right about me be quick to
calling people names because I am sorely tempted right now to call rajan a “wingnut” after reading his post.
Something I saw on the Net today somes it up niceley:
Most economists agree there is nothing better than a free
market , but they also agree that free markets are terrible at making sure they stay free.
Hence the need for intelligent Anti-Trust Laws… that get used.
Competition is the Crown Jewel of Capitalism.
Take it away and you got sheis.
> Tyranny, the US Justice System gives us such gems of jurisprudence as OJ,
> Gore-Bush @Florida 2000
“Gore-Bush @Florida 2000” was not the result of the department of justice; it was the result of the Florida Supreme Court’s order to violate the laws of the institution specifically empowered by the federal constitution to decide the laws for the election.
> I still don’t agree with this settlement. I don’t think there should be any
> settlement. I think there shouldn’t be antitrust laws. Hmmmm…
I agree, but punishing those who violate the law is important even if the law itself is extremely stupid.
> The (stupid) reasoning behind the opening up of the API is for rivals to
> fully take advantage of Windows, when those API, most of the time, is not needed.
<sarcasm>They should be allowed to have the source code to Windows because…uh…they want it. That’s what the law is for – to protect the interests of people who can’t possibly succeed on their own merit.</sarcasm>
> But I have to admit you may be right about me be quick to calling people
> names because I am sorely tempted right now to call rajan a “wingnut”
> after reading his post.
People call each other names when they have nothing better to say. 😉
> Something I saw on the Net today somes it up niceley: Most economists agree
> there is nothing better than a free market , but they also agree that free
> markets are terrible at making sure they stay free. Hence the need for
> intelligent Anti-Trust Laws… that get used. Competition is the
> Crown Jewel of Capitalism. Take it away and you got sheis.
Yes, free markets need to be regulated so that they stay free, just like the government needs to tax your income to make sure that the economy doesn’t tank, and the government needs to pay people not to work so that they seek employment.
First of all I wonder how many of us would pass a test on the contents of this 300-page ruling?
I never read a page of her decision, did you?
Somehow we all know it proves America is no damn good, etc. etc. etc. Or maybe we show little more than our own prejudices?
IMO this case was very poorly drafted back during the Clinton administration when basically they accused Microsoft of not quite the optimal charges. Then the case was bungled by the sleeping Judge Jackson (and who can blame him?).
Very possibly today’s decision is correct given the law and the poorly mishandled case she was handed.
I’ll bet BeOS, or Linux, or FreeBSD, or your favorite x86 OS runs on one of those new Shuttle SB51G computers. Just don’t dual-boot with any Windows newer than 98SE on the same harddrive. I agree with the comment Windows won the battle but just lost the war.
You don’t know anything about the problems with monopolies do you. I know there are some benefits, but you really just don’t get it; that there can never be a pure free market.
The anti-trust laws need some serious revision. They just don’t work now.
I’m a South African studying in the US (MBA). We don’t have anti-trust laws and it shows. 10 cents of every Rand ($ equivalent) I spend after tax goes to one company (SAB).
This is not even the largest company. This could never happen in the US.
In South Africa the banks conspire together, it is impossible to prove, but amazingly regardless of the state of the economy they manage to make record profits every year. They can do this because we don’t have the laws to stop it.
I would love to have some modern anti-trust in SA. And no I believe in a small government regulating only where absolutely necessary.
The second law of thermodynamics (entropy) is amazingly accurate in all systems (physical, biological, sociologial, etc).
If you just leave a system on its own it will decay (free market), you have to apply some directed energy into the system to prevent decay (appropriate anti-trust in this case).
Please tell us why you don’t think the US should have anti-trust.
I have everything against antitrust laws. I also have everything against those kinds of practices, but antitrust laws isn’t the best solution to treat them. The problem is with the current goverment in South Africa. It is following the same system Britain followed after WW2. Your situation shouldn’t be blamed on the lack of antitrust laws, but rather corruption in the government.
Malaysia also have its monopolies. One of them is Telekom Malaysia, which owns everything last mile related. Their services is terrible, their prices are insane – to put it nicely, it is the cause of lack of competition. I hate that company. But still why don’t I support antitrust laws?
Because the way to get rid of harmful monopolies is to prevent the government from manipulating the market. The Malaysian government invests billions of tax payer’s ringgit (RM3.80 = US$1.00) into Telekom. If they didn’t do that, Telekom Malaysia wouldn’t have come close in being a monopoly. Then they made it next to impossible to create your own last mile service by placing policies.
Read about monopolies and antitrust laws in the FAQ at http://www.capitalism.org – it is practically the same as my own opinion. Once the government removes its control over the market and places laws that doesn’t limit one’s own interlactual (in this case in business sense) skills.
I’ve watched this trial over the years (in pain) hoping Microsoft would eventually get its due, but knowing they had really won years ago. I enjoyed it because it was so difficult to come to a fair decision; and it has given me a better sense of our country and where it’s headed. Microsoft has been quite rough with customers, employees, and competitors, but they have also done a great deal for customers, employees, and the nation as a whole. So now I feel that monopolies aren’t so bad, as long as they are accompanied by a social conscience. It may be the competition that forces Microsoft to really change, but from what I see, they are taking steps in that direction.
I’ve been quoted by rajan r. as saying:
Robert B.: Do they want Redmond dictating what will be on your box and when and how you can and cannot use it?
No, you, as the consumer, dictate that. If you don’t want Windows, BTW, don’t buy a machine without it. You want Windows? Then you can’t dictate to Microsoft how you want it. Don’t like it the way Microsoft makes it to be? Don’t buy it! The ultimate power of the consumer.
Thought it only right to respond. While I do agree that we as consumers dictate what commodities are in demand, I believe that it has become quite difficult to ask for anything else when it comes to the consumer operating system market. I basically have two choices: Windows XP or Mac OS X. Now, if Microsoft had not been permitted to terrorize their OEMs, then maybe I would have a few other choices in the desktop space, but we will never know. As I cannot buy a PC (x86 architecture) from any major OEM without the Windows OS, I am not really able to shout my resounding defiance to Microsoft. So, basically, I can buy a PC and then reformat the drive to install my OS of choice, or I can build my own PC, which I do. Now, this isn’t such a bad proposition if it were not for the other pieces in this chess match. The MPAA and RIAA have made their copyrights of such importance, that Microsoft has unleashed a Windows Media Player that will not allow you to rip MP3s to a decent quality. If you want to rip music, then you have to use WMA with its digital copyright certificates. Well, if you’re pirating music, then it serves you right. However, I have not and do not now pirate CDs or download illegal MP3s off the net. What of my fair use rights? What about Microsoft’s heralded Paladium? The idea that DRM should be encoded in the very hardware of your system. You would then need a DRM compliant OS in order to use that hardware, and since the GPL and other Open Source licenses are not keen on NDAs and proprietary code, we’ll be scrounging in our closets for a hard drive that will allow us to install Linux or FreeBSD or whatever. There is real danger in the direction that companies like Microsoft are taking technology, and it’s all about control of your system. Again, I say it’s about controling what you put on your hard drive, what you can and cannot do with your computer.
I think MS needs a spanking. Come on they act like brats saying how innovate they are and without them the PCs will still be black and green, text based, 8-bit hobbiest toys.
Name 5 innovating things MS actully did.
The only the MS actully did without messing it up was porting basic.
Woz and Steve Jobs brought us boxed PCs
Woz brought us affordable floppy drives
Jay Miner made PCs better.
Commodore and Atari brought computers to the masses.
Xerox brought tons of innovations without actully getting anything in return.
Really I don’t see were MS actully helped.
How would this help the consumers? Nothing. Nadda. The so-called applications company’s products normally depend on Windows profit for R&D, along with Office. Windows also depends on Office profit. Breaking up the companies would result in Microsoft being dead. Nothing else.
So that means the only software company making money right now is one tied directly to the operating system vendor for the respective market? You highlight half of the problem with microsoft’s monopoly right there. Being that they can leverage their 90% marketshare to charge whatever profit margin befits them for their OS, they can go ahead and create and distribute for loss or for free any application that threatens to move into their territory. They can also force the issue the other way around by making it difficult for vendors to choose non-Windows operating systems by having them standardize on Office or some other piece of software that they are trying to push into broad acceptance.
You ask what the consumer gets? You’re answer was “nada”, but that is far from the truth. The consumer will get more market competition in all sectors of the marketplace. Being a market capitalist, you understand the value of increased competition don’t you? You furthermore no longer get a company who can order by proxy whatever they feel like by strong arming vendors and manufacturers with their OS/Apps double whammy.
You furthermore show an understanding of economics which over simplifies the issue. The magical market which always hovers at the junction of the most optimum intersection of the supply and demand curve is a fiction. The anti-competitive market fostered by Microsoft’s monopoly also makes your “just don’t by windows” market solution a fiction as well. AT&T was brought up in a previous thread. Would you find it equitable for the phone company back then to say, “If you don’t like our service, then don’t use it. Oh and by the way, we’ve made certain that no other company can come in and give you alternative service as well.” The Microsoft and AT&T scenario are cases of this type of practice. They were both monopolies which had negative impacts on the consumer and who had made the concept of checks and balances due to market forces irrelevant. This is why the anti-trust laws exist and why they must be executed from time to time.
The second law of thermodynamics (entropy) is amazingly accurate in all systems (physical, biological, sociologial, etc).
I hate to nitpick on this point, but I keep getting into circular arguments with creationists about this. The 2nd law applies only too thermodynamic aspects of a system. There are no physical laws that can be used for determining sociological or economic scenarios. All “laws” in these fields are not the same as physical laws because they don’t have an underlying constant mechanism behind them. Consequently, please don’t use these fields as proofs of the 2nd law of thermodynamics
When applying the 2nd law to any physical system furthermore, we are still only able to talk about it’s thermodynamic state. It can also be used in conjunction with other equations to solve for things like fluid flows and such, but it still is only relating the change of entropy to the energy transfer of the system. However entropy in the thermodynamics world, even though described as “disorder” in common text books, is not describing macroscopic degeneration as we know it. I can have a box of constant temperature, constant pressure air and do work on it that increases the entropy, thermodynamically speaking, yet it won’t appear any more or less “ordered” at the macroscopic level
I think this decision by largely uninformed, (haven’t a clue to what they are deciding on really?)is going to isolate the US from rest of the world in a way.
The US will be mainly M$ controlled by the rich as usual, since they control all, Gov., justice, big business and are all in this together for their good not ours (regular people).
I do think the larger world around the US will be much more independent and these people are better educated to make more independent decisions of their own thoughts.US average Joe just buys what is in the adds.
When the rest of the world has moved on, the US will be all by itself in it’s overpriced inferior software amoung other things.
It is pretty interesting thing to see many people who should have benn wiser to claim all sorts of things against Microsoft, with little information, with ignorance and some stupidity. Now the court says that, all of that was crap and the things proven in the court does not dictate all sorts of stupid restrictions on the Microsoft which will benefit only its competitiors at the expense of consumer confusion and the Microsoft’s own intellectual work.
I am laughing when I read people’s reactions to the court’s decisons. The judge had to be a mad woman to agree with the states’ claims, because states’ claims were so outrageous that even the judge had to use strong words about it.
I don’t like Microsoft winning in so many areas and be the dominant player. But competing with Microsoft requires competition, not whinning about stupid things. Oh Microsoft has an M on its name, oh Microsoft uses s that should be prevented, oh Microsoft finishes with t. That’s all we heard so far. There were good things about this court process though, and that is forcing Microsoft to comply with certain rules, making sure that Microsoft will not use its monopoly to compete in other areas unfairly and so on. These were good things, and these were the only good things. Everything else was crap.
Apparently, the majority of Americans voted him in. So, if you want someone to blame, blame those who voted for him.
Umm, i don’t think you understand
Microstoft ARE GUILTY!
This ‘judgement’ does nothing about that. MS are convicted of using the monopoly to artificailly raise the barriers, this judment stands.
All that has happened is the judge has said that she believe MS when they say they won’t do it again.
Yeah right.
And i thought the majority of Americans actually voted for Gore? but the whole weird election stuff ignores the popular vote?
And as for this judgement isolating Amercia, thats not true. It is things like Iraq, blind support for Israel, Kyoto, IMF, and the fact they refuse to open their markets even a tiny bit without bullying smaller countrys into submission which is going to/has been isolating America.
“The problem is with the current goverment in South Africa. It is
following the same system Britain followed after WW2. Your situation shouldn’t be blamed on the lack of
antitrust laws, but rather corruption in the government. ”
The Labour government after WW II may have been mistaking in
nationalising industry, but they were not in general corrupt.
(You can find the odd crooked individual in every government.)
> As I cannot buy a PC (x86 architecture) from any major OEM without the Windows OS, I am
> not really able to shout my resounding defiance to Microsoft.
You are not a mindless sheep, correct? Then you do not have to march in lockstep with everyone else. If you think that Microsoft is wrong, do not buy a computer from a major OEM; go to your local computer store and have them put one together for you.
> The MPAA and RIAA have made their copyrights of such importance, that Microsoft has
> unleashed a Windows Media Player that will not allow you to rip MP3s to a decent quality.
> If you want to rip music, then you have to use WMA with its digital copyright certificates.
No, you use another media player.
> What of my fair use rights? What about Microsoft’s heralded Paladium? The idea that DRM
> should be encoded in the very hardware of your system. You would then need a DRM compliant
> OS in order to use that hardware, and since the GPL and other Open Source licenses are not
> keen on NDAs and proprietary code, we’ll be scrounging in our closets for a hard drive
> that will allow us to install Linux or FreeBSD or whatever.
Penguins are such skittish creatures! You would not need a Palladium capable operating system to use the hardware; you would need it to run applications that require the Palladium hardware. It is the same difference between buying a VCR that supports the new 8-hour tapes vs. buying a VCR that supports only the new 8-hour tapes.
> There is real danger in the direction that companies like Microsoft are taking
> technology, and it’s all about control of your system.
I would prefer that some people not be able to control everything that goes on in their system. For a good example, consider cheating in online games. With the entire Windows line, it is possible for a cheat program to patch the game files, read/write the game’s memory, intercept its messages, etc. With Palladium, however, the game could make all these things impossible to do in software. Not hard, but impossible.
The first game of Diablo that I ever created on the Realms was crashed by several cheaters dropping bugged items and offering me Godly Plates of the Whale. Jerks! 😛
> Again, I say it’s about controling what you put on your hard drive, what you can and
> cannot do with your computer.
Well, we could say the same thing about registration keys, but I do not think that they are evil.
> Being that they can leverage their 90% marketshare to charge whatever profit margin
> befits them for their OS,
Complete BS, straight out of the anti-Microsoft camp. The profit margins have been lowered substantially because 1) inflation has risen much faster than the OEM price of Windows, and 2) by rolling applications into the operating system package, their development cost further erodes the profit margins.
> they can go ahead and create and distribute for loss or for free any application that
> threatens to move into their territory.
Where is my (legitimately) free copy of Office? You did say, “any application,” right? When will they be bundling Office?
> The anti-competitive market fostered by Microsoft’s monopoly also makes your “just
> don’t by windows” market solution a fiction as well.
That must be why I am using OO.o instead of Microsoft Office.
> Would you find it equitable for the phone company back then to say, “If you don’t like our
> service, then don’t use it. Oh and by the way, we’ve made certain that no other company
> can come in and give you alternative service as well.”
Yeah, that happened to me, too. As soon as I removed Windows XP from three hard drives, they failed. I had to buy a new hard drive just to install Linux.
When we switched from AT&T to Sprint, a very similar thing happened. A guy from the phone company came over and ripped all the wiring out of the house, and then they tore up the ground to remove the telephone wires running to the house.
Not.
> This is why the anti-trust laws exist and why they must be executed from time to time.
Ever heard of Teddy Roosevelt?
> The US will be mainly M$ controlled by the rich as usual, since they control all, Gov.,
> justice, big business and are all in this together for their good not ours (regular people).
That must be why they profit from selling us such useful software that the Linux geeks cannot wait to clone, right?
> Apparently, the majority of Americans voted him in. So, if you want someone to blame,
> blame those who voted for him.
No, actually Gore won the mythical popular vote, and I certainly blame those who voted for him, although I do it for different reasons. 😉
“If you want to rip music, then you have to use WMA with its digital copyright certificates. Well, if you’re pirating music, then it serves you right. However, I have not and do not now pirate CDs or download illegal MP3s off the net. What of my fair use rights?”
Fair use is a defense, not a right. People need to understand the distinction. There’s nothing in the fair use doctrine that says that rights holders have to make works available in any and all formats, or have to facilitate any and all forms of copying. Just that you can’t be prosecuted for making “fair use” of them.
So your fair use “rights” as you call them have not been eroded one bit. Copy your CD’s to tape and chill out.
> Fair use is a defense, not a right. People need to understand the distinction.
> There’s nothing in the fair use doctrine that says that rights holders have to make
> works available in any and all formats, or have to facilitate any and all forms
> of copying. Just that you can’t be prosecuted for making “fair use” of them.
Yes, it most certainly is! Taken directly from the mythical Section VIII, Article B of the U.S. Constitution:
“A person having digital media shall be able to do anything he or she wants to with it, provided it complies with the Fair Use laws enacted centuries after this document was written.”
That is under the same fictional section which defines the fourth branch of government, the judicislature, which allows judges to create new laws from campaign rhetoric and to order people to violate existing laws.
The US will be mainly M$ controlled by the rich as usual, since they control all, Gov., justice, big business and are all in this together for their good not ours (regular people).
<sarcasm>Ahh yes, this is definately a uniquely American phenomenon.</sarcasm> Certainly we have a problem with this type of thing in the US, but it is not unique to our time or to the US. Every country in the world is at the same junction point and has been for the last 10,000 years. If you want to be critical of things like this, then at least be honest and apply your standards universally. It is also a problem in instances, and not an epidemic problem.
“Yes, it most certainly is! Taken directly from the mythical Section VIII, Article B of the U.S. Constitution:
“A person having digital media shall be able to do anything he or she wants to with it, provided it complies with the Fair Use laws enacted centuries after this document was written.”
No you’re thinking of Section IX. Section VIII says:
“Any person suspected of using non-open source products, including but not limited to those manufactured by Microsoft, shall have all previous rights granted under this Constitution revoked, specifically, the protection against cruel and unusual punishment.”
> No you’re thinking of Section IX. Section VIII says:
>
> “Any person suspected of using non-open source products, including but not limited
> to those manufactured by Microsoft, shall have all previous rights granted
> under this Constitution revoked, specifically, the protection against cruel
> and unusual punishment.”
Hmm…well, I probably did not know about it because the judicislature has not yet invoked it in a major case. I wonder when they will get around to the one that allows politicians to lie on TV without having their integrity questioned by the interviewer(s)…?
“I wonder when they will get around to the one that allows politicians to lie on TV without having their integrity questioned by the interviewer(s)…?”
That would fall under the more general principle known as “the pot calling the kettle black”.
“J. No provision of this Final Judgment shall:
1. Require Microsoft to document, disclose or license to third parties: (a) portions of APIs or Documentation or portions or layers of Communications Protocols the disclosure of which would compromise the security of a particular installation or group of installations of anti-piracy, anti-virus, software licensing, digital rights management, encryption or authentication systems, including without limitation, keys, authorization tokens or enforcement criteria; or (b) any API, interface or other information related to any Microsoft product if lawfully directed not to do so by a governmental agency of competent jurisdiction.
2. Prevent Microsoft from conditioning any license of any API, Documentation or Communications Protocol related to anti-piracy systems, anti-virus technologies, license enforcement mechanisms, authentication/authorization security, or third party intellectual property protection mechanisms of any Microsoft product to any person or entity on the requirement that the licensee: (a) has no history of software counterfeiting or piracy or willful violation of intellectual property rights, (b) has a reasonable business need for the API, Documentation or Communications Protocol for a planned or shipping product, (c) meets reasonable, objective standards established by Microsoft for certifying the authenticity and viability of its business, (d) agrees to submit, at its own expense, any computer program using such APIs, Documentation or Communication Protocols to third-party verification, approved by Microsoft, to test for and ensure verification and compliance with Microsoft specifications for use of the API or interface, which specifications shall be related to proper operation and integrity of the systems and mechanisms identified in this paragraph. ”
and palladium is the new deal…
people welcome to the dark age of computing
another corruption of our legal system
…or when no one will listen to reason.
LemerTheRemer: sorry but maybe you dont remember the high price of using the phones during the monoploy of ma bell… i shutter to think of the internet with ma bell in charge.
If you read up history, you would see various politicians were investors in ma bell, plus ma bell practically bought the government. When the party they support lost in elections, bang – antitrust.
Really, lemer, if the US Constitution prevents things that leads to corruption (ESPECIALLY election campaign donations), Ma Bell incident would have never happen. And UNIX would never be seperated and Microsoft and IBM would never be monopolies of their age.
Speaking on price….. had oil prices came as low as during Rockfeller Standard Oil’s days? 🙂
LemerTheRemer: anti trust laws protect when applied correctly.
Syariah laws protect when applied correctly. Yet, it is sending a Nigerian woman to death because of a crime that could be proven wrong if scientific methods can be used.
On the Democrats and Republican issue, as a outsider – they both suck.
Anonymous: Most economists agree there is nothing better than a free
market , but they also agree that free markets are terrible at making sure they stay free.
Hence the need for intelligent Anti-Trust Laws… that get used.
Competition is the Crown Jewel of Capitalism.
Most economies? (Besides, competition provided because of antitrust laws are pseudo-competition, competition that doesn’t work in favour of the consumer).
null_pointer_us: I agree, but punishing those who violate the law is important even if the law itself is extremely stupid.
The bad thing about antitrust laws is cases are a open and shut case. That means had this case been given to another judge other than Jackson, or had Microsoft used another tactic in its defence (the initial defence was laughable), things would be way different.
Anonymous: Competition is the Crown Jewel of Capitalism.
Take it away and you got sheis.
It isn’t. Individual ingeniunity and personal aspirations, goals and achivements is. The original American dream is exactly what capitalism is about.
JP: I never read a page of her decision, did you?
First 51 pages only, so far.
JP: I agree with the comment Windows won the battle but just lost the war.
I have to agree here with you. Amazing to see with such “anti-competitive acts”, Linux still haves a sales growth of 30% in the desktop.
Robert B.: As I cannot buy a PC (x86 architecture) from any major OEM without the Windows OS, I am not really able to shout my resounding defiance to Microsoft.
I’m not able to buy a Malaysian-made car without a Mitsubishi-manufacturered engine. Does that mean I have to stick with that company? Nope. I can buy a foreign car. Most people DON’T CARE. The people who care is where every cent count, which is why, albeit there isn’t a price different, most major computer makers have some of their corporate machines Linux compatible, and ship Linux-only if wanted.
Robert B.: The MPAA and RIAA have made their copyrights of such importance, that Microsoft has unleashed a Windows Media Player that will not allow you to rip MP3s to a decent quality.
Actually, Microsoft stop bundling a MP3 encoder when they have to pay, let me repeat that, PAY royalties, for a competiting file format.
Robert B.: What of my fair use rights?
Thanks to the people you elected; down the drain.
Robert B.: You would then need a DRM compliant OS in order to use that hardware, and since the GPL and other Open Source licenses are not keen on NDAs and proprietary code, we’ll be scrounging in our closets for a hard drive that will allow us to install Linux or FreeBSD or whatever.
Actually, Palladium is optional. If you don’t want it, you can disable it. This would be true for Windows for the first few Palladium-enable versions where it is suicide not being able to run on most PCs.
What worries me is that Microsoft advertise Palladium as a good thing, and Linux can’t adopt it. Microsoft won’t/can’t strongarm Linux off the market. Especially not this way.
Psy: Really I don’t see were MS actully helped.
Microsoft made it possible for multiple hardware makers, thus bringing the PC to a wider audience.
Hank: So that means the only software company making money right now is one tied directly to the operating system vendor for the respective market? […]
Wow, Hank, thanks for repeating what I have been debunking all this while.
The government should never come to the aid of a incompetent company, in this case, it is Netscape.
Matthew Gardiner: Apparently, the majority of Americans voted him in. So, if you want someone to blame, blame those who voted for him.
Hovering just above 50% (which itself is a controvesial issue), I wouldn’t exactly call the voters “majority”.
Ores: It is things like Iraq, blind support for Israel, Kyoto, IMF, and the fact they refuse to open their markets even a tiny bit without bullying smaller countrys into submission which is going to/has been isolating America.
Iraq, if you read the history behind it, is all about unifying the Arab penisular to form a Sunni Islam Socialist nation. However, UAR (United Arab Republic) isn’t supported by majority of Arabs, and of course, majority of the world. The devasting war with Iran would never have happen without Saddam hands in it. Of course the whole Iraq thing have Britain to blame for.
Israel on the other hand is being used by Arab leaders to get popular support and to hide real problems in their respective country. Palestinians, a people that a century ago never was recognized, dig their own grave holes for themselves. And Israelis, while pushing them into their grave, is falling in themselves.
As for the other issues, if you really think destablizing the economy during this conditions would do the world a lot of good, you are dead wrong.
Don Cox: The Labour government after WW II may have been mistaking in
nationalising industry, but they were not in general corrupt.
Legally, they aren’t. But in my mind, they are.
Anyway, on antitrust laws, notice only when the so-call “victim” has something to gain does he sue its competitor under this law. I can think hundreds of companies in countries with antitrust laws which have violated them numerous times, yet get off scott free because of the lack of sour grapes.
I just got a email saying I work for Microsoft. Believe me, any action against Microsoft would benefit me, a future (hopefully) competitor against Microsoft.
Adopting TCPA is easy. JUST when you recompile your system, it stops being TCPA-compatible. In other words, unless you plan to be a Linux distribution (in which, under any economic situation, please continue your father’s footsteps), you should be all right. Besides, Palladium is optional outside the MS world.
note the irony
Rajan, you are showing some real ignornace here. I don’t presume to talk about countries I know nothing about. And based on your comments you know nothing about it. We have one of the most transparent governments in the world. I cannot imagine a more transparent government.
Before you talk about corruption in government go to the World Bank site and check out the corruption index. I found it interesting that the US and South Africa were for all real purposes tied. This takes into account all kinds of corruption not just governmental.
We have a real culture of inclusion and openness in South Africa which resulted from all the negotiations leading up to the 1994 elections. Sometimes its ridiculous the way we feel we have to include everyones ideas.
The Minister of Finance is respected around the world, because we have some of the best macro economic policies anywhere, he is chairman of the World Bank Development Committee.
You seem to have this ability to make sweeping statements that for some strange reason should be taken as fact because you say so. Please offer some real reasons as to why anti-trust is a bad idea. They exist but I don’t think you know any of them.
I would love to read one legitimate reason.
RE: Fair use rights, rajan r said “Thanks to the people you elected; down the drain.”
Don’t be so quick to assume that anyone here voted for any particular candidate. I find it personally offensive when I am given responsibility for a candidate I did NOT vote for.
Besides, most American citizens don’t even think about the great scheme of things when they vote. My father, for example, chose his candidate based on ONE, narrow, impossible issue while hating everything else about that candidate. Shameful.
Somebody said that you can turn Palliduim off, whats the betting that ppl won’t realise and leave it running then when the majority are hooked it then become mandatory?
BTW the Palliduim feature should be off by default and turned ON if you want it, just like the Pentuims 3’s.
Microsoft may punish OEM’s for shipping other OS’s but i do beleive that evesham.com sells lindows as well as XP in the UK.
If nobody likes MS software and don’t like the sound of linux why not buy a mac, thats not hard is it?
If you still don’t fancy a mac then buy a second hand pc or laptop, they are not that bad and ppl should really understand what they need a pc for.
I bet the second hand market will be a huge boom in the next couple of years when people start looking for non DRM enabled machines.
Apples are not expensive these days if you think about it, my next pc purchase is going to be a mac because of this shit.
Remember Apple isn’t going to support DRM in their PC’s.
If they do then buy a off SunMicrosystems and install linux.
Rajan maybe you can educate me on this one. I am sure you have read the entire 300+ page decision by now.
How do these sanctions punish MS for what they did in the past? To me it just seems like they are weak measures to prevent them from doing the same things in the future.
The problem, is that they have this massively dominant position in the market, a 40billion dollar war chest and nothing to penalise them for the past.
I also think that the case brought against MS missed a lot of points, but the finding of fact I believe anyway indicates that they broke the law.
Andrew, I don’t mean to insult. Even though there is way less corruption then say… Malaysia or Singapore, many of the policies are more lopsided to the lawmaker’s interest.
Besides, South Africa is the only country in Africa I have read up about (quite fascinating development you have there is less than a decade of peace). But let me restate, I have no intention of insulting your government. No government is perfect. Give me another government and if I haven’t read up about them yet, when I do, I can insult them full-blown.
Call it a personal interest.
Nope, got too bored after page 52. Haven’t gone further.
To Jace: Well, sorry. So you didn’t elect them, big deal. Somehow they got elected. hey! I never been part of a election 🙂 (my age…)
To CrakedButter: My worry is not the Palladium being on default thingy, is that it would be advertised as a feature. Hmmm…
rajan r wrote
Microsoft made it possible for multiple hardware makers, thus bringing the PC to a wider audience.Not really IBM did by mistake. IBM making their PC platform with nothing but off the shelf parts and outsourcing the OS to Microsoft made it easy for clone makers to make clones legally without paying IBM money. If IBM put say custom chips on it or did the OS inhouse not even MS could get clone makers without IBM’s consent.
Any software house would have sold to the clone makers if they were in MS shoes since that what business do make money.
As for bring the PC to a wider audience yes it brought the IBM compat to a wider audience but I’m not sure how much it is responsible for bringing personal computers in gerneral to a wider audience. Even without IBM the other companies could have in theory starting playing the the ideas of clones. Apple played with the idea for awhile with the Mac
IBM did nothing by mistake. People think that it is a mistake, but people don’t think what would happen if that mistake was not done. That mistake made IBM PC the PC as we know today. If IBM did not do that mistake, then we would have a different computer as the PC. What happens to Apple would happen to IBM.
IBM eventully thought they made a mistake. That was what the PS/2 and OS/2 was about to try and regain control of their platform.
If IBM was able to regain control the IBM PC probably would never been more then a office computer yet I’m not sure if that would have been a good thing or a bad thing. Atari and Commodore might still be around well come to think of it their stupidity would probably have still killed them off yet we might have clones of both after their death. Of course this is theoretically speaking.
“How do these sanctions punish MS for what they did in the past? To me it just seems like they are weak measures to prevent them from doing the same things in the future.”
There are no sanctions, and there is no punishment. The present decision upholds a settlement originally made between MS and the DOJ. Settlements are not meant to be punitive.
“The problem, is that they have this massively dominant position in the market, a 40billion dollar war chest and nothing to penalise them for the past.”
A monopoly in and of itself is not illegal, neither is having $40 billion dollars, and blame the DOJ for not pursuing “appropriate” sanctions.
“I also think that the case brought against MS missed a lot of points, but the finding of fact I believe anyway indicates that they broke the law.”
Agreed but it’s a moot point. In any event, part of the settlement stipulates that MS acknowledges its wrongdoing, for what that’s worth.
Hank: So that means the only software company making money right now is one tied directly to the operating system vendor for the respective market? […]
rajan r: Wow, Hank, thanks for repeating what I have been debunking all this while.
The government should never come to the aid of a incompetent company, in this case, it is Netscape.
The seed started with Netscape and grew from there. Are you forgetting the rest of the complaints against Microsoft that came up after the government began their investigation? Luckily the potential Microsoft application company has plenty of historical precedent of software companies being able to survive without being tied to an OS division. Don’t worry, the sky wouldn’t fall, the two MS companies would furthermore do fine and would probably produce even better products faster in light of the new market pressures.
There are lots of companies (AOL, Sun, Be) suing Microsoft right now. If I’m not mistaken, there’s either a class action suit in progress or at the very least talk of one (or more). Microsoft hasn’t gotten away with anything. Once all is said and done they are going to pay. It will be near impossible for them to win the civil antitrust trials they are facing. They’ve had to pay huge settlements in the past (such as to Caldera for destroying DR-DOS). This is nothing compared to what’s coming.
The European Union has been watching and waiting to see what the US would do before firming up their own gameplan. The EU just authorized a huge study to explore the feasability of moving parts of the EU members’ governments to non-Microsoft products. Doing business in the EU and the rest of the world is going to get harder and harder for MS. Not only that, the EU might impose sanctions and fines of its own. The European Union is not the 3rd world, it’s a sizable chunk of the 1st world. Losing it — or even having its business seriously curtailed there — would be quite a blow.
Other countries are most likely going to look on this settlement as the US government handling an American breadwinner with kid gloves. The EU has no reason to treat MS so kindly. I’m very curious to see what’s going to happen there.
Does anyone think this will do anything but strengthen the Chinese resolve to avoid/replace Microsoft products? What about India? Those two countries alone make up a large fraction of the planet’s population. Those two countries have already shown a willingness to embrace alternatives and both are a hotbed of IT growth.
I really don’t see why everyone seems to think Microsoft is in such a great position. It’s just not. It’s being sued by pretty much everyone in the world, it’s under constant scrutiny, the governments of the world are actively displeased with its conduct and seeking alternatives. If China, India and the European Union would throw the full weight of their support behind an alternative OS such as Linux, Microsoft could very well find itself less and less an international power. Left with no one else to squeeze it would be American customers who’d take the punishment, but I’d wager not for very long. It will be interesting to see how it all unfolds.
Before anyone mentions Apple, the powers that be simply aren’t going to throw their support behind Apple because most of the hardware in the world is x86 and Apple simply isn’t a contender in that arena. Unfortunate, but true. I know all the arguments about Apple being a hardware company, but I’d be willing to bet that if Apple released Jaguar for x86 tomorrow they wouldn’t be able to stamp the CDs fast enough to keep up with demand.
You are really reading more into this then you should. Ms is not proof that the rich have an oligarchy. Money can, and does, buy influence in all countries (even “communist”) ones. That doesn’t mean no one else matters. Presidents are elected by the masses. Same as senators, reps, mayors, governors, etc. Sure the rich can give financial support but bill gates gets the same single vote you do. You can’t blame the rich for the lemming attitude of some people. No amount of money can guarantee a political victory, or “getting away” with committing a crime.
As for education did you know that California has more colleges then England? Or that the US has more colleges then all of europe? It amazes me when people sterotype americans as stupid when we have more highly educated people then anywhere else in the world. People are stupid. Not just Americans. Europeans, Africans, South Americans, Asians, Oceanics, Canadians and Mexicans are all stupid. Thats why advertising works everywhere, not just in the US.
You may think ms’ software is inferior, but in reality it depends on what you use it for. For my purposes its the best choice, for my friend’s purposes netbsd is, for another friend its debian linux. You see how we all exercised our right to choose?
at&t could provide shitty service and force customers to stay because they were a government supported monopoly. Thats why regulation can be bad (I won’t go as far as rajan r and say it is). Thats also why my cable service sucks, it was over-regulated for so long that the competition has failed to materialize. Same with local phone service, gas, electric, etc. Cell phone companies are on the opposite end though. Because of a lack of regulation once you’ve got a plan your stuck pretty much for life. The company owns the phone number, not you. So if you want to leave once your initial contract is up you have to spend time contacting everyone you know, and everyone you do business with and give them your new number. For many the hassle is great enough where they’ll put up with bad service to keep from having to do it.
Actually from what I understand the ruling is more lenient then the settlement. The reason being the actual case at hand, is now a moot point. You’ve got to remember this is an extension of 1997, not yesterday. The lawsuit is 5 years behind the times, thats why it has no teeth.
As for the civil suits they’re jokes. The sun case is an admitted attempt at “monopoly busting”. Which can’t be done by a civil suit. All sun wants is to push ms around when it comes to java so they can feel like men. Be’s case is even funnier, they claim ms strongarmed them out of an oem deal. Even if its true (lets say it is), thats not illegal. Its a waste of the courts time. And aol knows it won’t win. Its just using the courts to judge a big dick contest with ms because ms continues to be strong financially while aol/timewarner is losing ground.
The EU may be looking at using other oses, but they will stick with they find that has the best value/price ratio. If thats ms they’ll continue to use windows. China doesn’t want to use windows because of costs. If it was free they would eat it up. Same with india. They’re both still developing markets and what they need is cheap products. The EU case against ms may be interesting though, depending on when they finally make it. They seem to be moving at about the same rate the doj did when this all began in 1994. Which means they may have a ruling fit for today in 2010.
Hank: Are you forgetting the rest of the complaints against Microsoft that came up after the government began their investigation?
The only offence Microsoft is “guilty” of is against Netscape. Java and Be have their seperate cases against Microsoft that haven’t reach the stage of judgement.
I don’t believe someone should be punished before the court charge them as guilty.
Rob: They’ve had to pay huge settlements in the past (such as to Caldera for destroying DR-DOS).
The DR-DOS case was funny. This is because they expected IBM and clone makers to support them over Microsoft or bundle both versions of DOS when DR-DOS’ OEM cost was probably at least 2 times the cost of MS-DOS. They defended the cost by saying that DR-DOS has way more features than MS-DOS – so?
Rob: The EU just authorized a huge study to explore the feasability of moving parts of the EU members’ governments to non-Microsoft products.
Actually, they spend considarably little money, compared to the Malaysia, Indian, Chinese governments. Plus they are investigating the use of open source software, not non-Microsoft software. If Microsoft release their stuff under a open source license, they would consider their software too.
Rob: Not only that, the EU might impose sanctions and fines of its own.
Fines won’t hurt Microsoft. There is a limit to what EU can do, which is the way Windows is distributed and priced, not how it works.
Rob: Other countries are most likely going to look on this settlement as the US government handling an American breadwinner with kid gloves.
There is two countries also investigating Microsoft, Taiwan and Israel. South Korea threw out a antitrust suit against Microsoft, IIRC, allegding the offence was done outside of South Korean control (besides, it was Office related). Israel is investigating the fact that IE for Mac don’t have Hebrew support (IE related, not Windows). Taiwan is investigating Microsoft pricing (well, this might hurt Microsoft, but Taiwan is a small market).
Rob: Does anyone think this will do anything but strengthen the Chinese resolve to avoid/replace Microsoft products? What about India? Those two countries alone make up a large fraction of the planet’s population.
The Chinese wants to replace Microsoft even though they are all goody-good. This is because they are in the US and closed source, and naturally they become a suspect. India and China also wants Linux and BSD over Windows because they can’t afford the latter. (Besides, most of the Chinese and Indian population don’t even know how to read or write. Heck, most of them don’t even know their national languages).
If China, India and the European Union would throw the full weight of their support behind an alternative OS such as Linux, Microsoft could very well find itself less and less an international power.
China and India pretty much threw their weighs behind Linux. EU gives that choice to its component countries to decide what software to use.
but I’d be willing to bet that if Apple released Jaguar for x86 tomorrow they wouldn’t be able to stamp the CDs fast enough to keep up with demand.
Well, they have to transition towards it ala Palm, moving towards a software company and seperate its software and hardware business. Releasing for x86 Jaguar tommorrow would only cause Apple’s death.
Besides, Apple isn’t interested in market dominance, rather it is in profit. And with high margins in its niche markets, why compete with Microsoft?
genaldar: As for education did you know that California has more colleges then England? Or that the US has more colleges then all of europe?
And you are forgeting Europe was devastated by two world wars, while American infrastructure was little hit by those wars. Having more colleges doesn’t mean the citizens are more smarter. It depends on the things they teach.
Besides, when it comes to consumer knowlegde, I notice average Americans are better than the average European.
genaldar: Its just using the courts to judge a big dick contest with ms because ms continues to be strong financially while aol/timewarner is losing ground.
The ironic thing is that AOL is loosing money not because of Microsoft, but because of the most stupid merger that ever happen in history. (Oh, BTW, notice when AOL filled the suit against Microsoft, they was and still using IE in AOL?)
It’s all over – and not because there is a ruling which might be the last. It’s all over because this political agenda means Bill Gates now has a mandate to steal stuff and destroy companies and beyond all that to keep churning out shitty software. Man, in his world there is no professional pride, there is only greed.
Which makes the rest of us feel bad, real bad. Bad enough for some of us, like yours truly, to get out.
Also, watch what happens with Apple now. They’ve been in Microsoft’s lap so long, but Microsoft doesn’t need them any longer. If Bill Gates still owns that $150million in Apple stock, expect him to sell it fast and dramatic and make a run on the market. He can make Apple bankrupt in a fortnight.
“As for the civil suits they’re jokes. ”
MS has already lost civil cases that cost them $$$ so we’ll just see how much of a joke those cases are when $$$ come in.
The DR-DOS case was funny. This is because they expected IBM and clone makers to support them over Microsoft or bundle both versions of DOS when DR-DOS’ OEM cost was probably at least 2 times the cost of MS-DOS. They defended the cost by saying that DR-DOS has way more features than MS-DOS – so?
What happened with the Windows 3.1 betas and DR-DOS is that Microsoft put code into Windows 3.1 so that when it was installed on DR-DOS, a misleading error message appeared in order to fool users into thinking that there was a technical problem with the install.
If MS had used an error message that said something to the effect of “You are installing Windows 3.1 on an unsupported DOS,” then it would have been in the clear legally. Instead, MS resorted to borderline fraud.
When I mentioned the number of colleges I was simply responding to someone who basically called american’s uneducated. I just wanted to point out that its hard to be uneducated when more of your citizens go to college then any other country in the world.
btw I don’t think ww1 and 2 are the reasons for lack of colleges in europe. It has been almost sixty years since the end of ww2 and I’m pretty sure the infastructure should be as good as its going to be at this point. The only way the wars could still be affecting the number of colleges (and the number of students in turn) is that since those generations aren’t as full as they should’ve been the population is smaller. Meaning even if the same percentage of people would’ve gone to college, more space would’ve been needed since they’re would’ve been more people. Of course europeans can blame no one, other then other europeans.
nuff said
Obviously the US has many great minds and Universities.
Some Points :-
– There are many, many foreigners studying in the US.
– Inside American Colleges and Universities, not the few really good ones, you will find terriblly ignorant students.
– There is so much grade inflation its a joke. You pay your tuition and it is extremely difficult to fail. Even with that being the case there are many dropouts.
– Having attended a University while on tennis scholarship in the US and now doing my MBA (I would not have been qualified to do it in SA), I can say this with some real knowledge.
– I have attended FMU, an accredited university for undergraduate and graduate programs. Supposedly in the top 10% if US Universities not colleges. I know nothing like the top Universities in the US.
– I have attended The University of the Witwatersrand in South Africa.
– There is no comparison between the two. Now I am sure Stanford and Harvard etc. are better, but they are a minority.
– Europeans only go to University if they are the top or in the Academic stream (or so my European roommates tell me). Otherwise they go to technical colleges and insitutions like that.
– Graduates coming out of the US high school system when ranked against the top 30 nations internationally came 29th in Math and Science. Ironically for me, South Africa (my country) came last. But many of the people from South Africa in the study would never have made it into University.
– Having said all that I like the setup in the US, apart from grade inflation, entitlement, choosing your professors etc. I believe it creates opportunites for people not doing so well in High School to fix all that and is much more flexible.
– The European system is just aweful in my opinion.
Finally a lot of the perception about Americans is that so many of them are completely ignorant of the rest of the world. One thing I always find funny is that a world map in the US always has the America in the centre, instead of the centre being on real time.
“- There are many, many foreigners studying in the US.”
Making up a very small minority of the total student population.
“- Inside American Colleges and Universities, not the few really good ones, you will find terriblly ignorant students.”
Inside of any institution you can find terribly ignorant people.
“- There is so much grade inflation its a joke. You pay your tuition and it is extremely difficult to fail. Even with that being the case there are many dropouts.”
With all that grade inflation you must have a perfect 4.0 huh? People drop out for several reasons, not just bad grades. Hell I know people on the dean’s list that dropped out because they weren’t sure what they wanted to do and couldn’t afford to go to random classes for years to find what interested them.
“- Having attended a University while on tennis scholarship in the US and now doing my MBA (I would not have been qualified to do it in SA), I can say this with some real knowledge.”
You probably would’ve qualified if your country had more colleges. Besides thats 1 school.
“- I have attended FMU, an accredited university for undergraduate and graduate programs. Supposedly in the top 10% if US Universities not colleges. I know nothing like the top Universities in the US.”
First off what is fmu? I’ve never heard of it. btw the where did you get the 10% from? A recruitment brocure? On what is it based? According to whom? Besides 10% is still a lot of schools.
“- I have attended The University of the Witwatersrand in South Africa.
– There is no comparison between the two. Now I am sure Stanford and Harvard etc. are better, but they are a minority.”
If you compare a bad us school to a top school in sa then the sa schools would appear to be superior. Compare 5 random us schools with 5 random sa schools and see what the outcome is. or compare stanford, harvard, yale, princeton, carelton college, northwestern, etc. with their sa equivilant and see what the outcome is.
“- Europeans only go to University if they are the top or in the Academic stream (or so my European roommates tell me). Otherwise they go to technical colleges and insitutions like that.”
horrible system. Einstein would’ve gone on to be a mechanic or something because he was a bad student.
“- Graduates coming out of the US high school system when ranked against the top 30 nations internationally came 29th in Math and Science. Ironically for me, South Africa (my country) came last. But many of the people from South Africa in the study would never have made it into University.”
That is a horrible number, especially for the us. Its sad more students aren’t interested in math and science. I keep hoping its a trend that changes. btw why do you make exscuses for the south african students? Every stupid person in all the other countries took the same test so they all could’ve used the same exscuse. Secondly since when did it become thirty? the last time I saw this it was top 13 nations.
“Finally a lot of the perception about Americans is that so many of them are completely ignorant of the rest of the world. One thing I always find funny is that a world map in the US always has the America in the centre, instead of the centre being on real time.”
A lot of americans are completely uninformed on other countries, and to be honest they can be. Your average american doesn’t have to know about the rest of the world to do their jobs. I wish more people would take an interest in international news, but it won’t happen unless another super power emerges. When england was the super power english people only knew about english territories. So until the US isn’t the worlds only remaining super power we will most likely continue to be nearly oblivious to other countries. btw the map thing is funny but who cares? Its like the british taking mean time because they were the super power at the time, live with it.
One question though. If the schools in the US are so horrible then why are you here? Why are all the other foreign students here? I mean sure theres plenty of spots available, but I could probably just eat roadkill and not worry about starving, that doesn’t mean I’m going to.
It’s all over because this political agenda means Bill Gates now has a mandate to steal stuff and destroy companies and beyond all that to keep churning out shitty software.
“Stealing” has nothing to do with this case. Antitrust has to do with market dominance. And in the market, there is no “stealing” when it comes to taking the possition of power. As for destorying other companies, I would say other companies destroyed themselves.
Netscape never got the support of ISVs. Internet Explorer did. It was not because Netscape wasn’t pre-IE dominate (in fact, all major OEMs bundle Netscape) but rather was how Netscape was built. When IE start aggressively taking away marketshare Netscape had no choice but the rewrite – a 4 year rewrite during which Netscape was pretty much stagnant.
Be never had a target market. I could kill to get as much opportunities as Be. For example, when Copland died, Be Inc. had its biggest opportunity in courting disgrunted developers. They didn’t even try to take advantage of that.
Sun’s case was its legal team’s fault. Okay, here goes: Sun and MS signs contract, MS makes JVM for Windows. MS violates contract by making changes in the JVM. Sun sues and was going to win when they made a settlement that takes MS off its previous contract. Sun thought MS would never get rid of Java, they were wrong. If Sun pushed for a better settlement, we would still have Java in Windows after 2004.
J. J. Ramsey: If MS had used an error message that said something to the effect of “You are installing Windows 3.1 on an unsupported DOS,” then it would have been in the clear legally. Instead, MS resorted to borderline fraud.
I read a few articles about this at DR-DOS web sites, but know too little to really make a statment. So until the next quote, all the words after this sentence is a mere guess.
We wouldn’t know what actually happen. What is true is that Windows 3.1 was Microsoft’s feature, Microsoft product, and Ms-DOS is a requirement. The technical error that came up during the installation is very legitimate, cause you, I and Caldera have no proof Microsoft did it on purpose. Windows 3.1 also didn’t work on older versions of MS-DOS, after all.
Besides, does it make a difference? Nope. If Microsoft heeded you suggestion, it wouldn’t change things. Windows still can’t be installed on DR-DOS. DR-DOS failure in market has to do with the lack of substantial OEM support. If DR-DOS was priced cheaper than MS-DOs, big OEMs would drop it faster than you can say “Bill Gates Is The Anti-Christ”.
genaldar: btw I don’t think ww1 and 2 are the reasons for lack of colleges in europe. It has been almost sixty years since the end of ww2 and I’m pretty sure the infastructure should be as good as its going to be at this point.
By time Europe had time to recover fully economically and financially, they were way behind America in education insitutes. Give Europe another 60 years, they would probably surpass America.
It has always been that way on and off for the past few millenias.
Some points.
I think you take my post way to personally.
The University I attend now, doing my MBA is not a bad University it is in the top 10%.
I was talking about US students in general.
The Univesity I went to in SA, I already told you is a great institution. By the way I think it would compare favourably with any UNiversity, but I can’t say from experience. I do know that there are many South Africans in London right now. 8 years ago graduates from WITS Univesity occupied the third most Managing Director positions in the UK after Oxford and Cambridge. Which is astounding when you consider it is a foreign University.
I agree with you it is unfair to compare the University I go to here with WITS. I know there are many, many great Universities in the US though (Huindereds?).
I completely agree with your statement of what European Universities are like which is why I said, “i think they’re aweful”.
I came to the US originally to play tennis, study, and visit another country, all at the same time. When my scholarship came through I left WITS. That is why I am here. Looking back I would not have left, but thats another issue.
The point still stands though that at the Unversity I go to (FMU) which has great professors in the Business School. There are so many students who don’t deserve to graduate with a degree, but do.
There is a horrible problem with Grade Inflation, and entitlement in the US. The system is also not designed to protect itself against this. Selecting your professors is a crazy idea
I read a study on Grade inflation here. The average grade even at Harvard is above a ‘3.0’.
Actually my grade point average for undergrad was 3.9. But I never cared to select my professors, and I also took classes like Calculus 2 and 3, Pysics (instead of intro to Physical Science) etc. Pretty much the only B’s I got where in English, because my grammer is just not up to scratch. AND I DID NOT REALLY DESERVE THAT GPA.
With regard to SA’s poor performance. We used to do much better before Apartheid ended. As you may know ‘Whites’ received excellent education and ‘Blacks’ terrible education. The whole country is very peculiar as a result of those policies. So now if you take the schools as a whole they are bad, but getting better. If you take Private and model C schools (subsidized by government, with nominal tuition fees), they are still very good.
Lastly, I think it is much better to just take an honest look at the situation which is what I have attempted to do. I could be wrong.
Hmmm, that’s interesting. Microsoft was ruled an illegal monopolist. Guess they’ll have to really pay for their transgressions now, huh? Yeah, let’s see — “I promise not to do so much illegal stuff in the future under pain of” … well there doesn’t seem to be any consequence whatever they do. But at least Microsoft has to pay a really, really big fine. I mean, how could they possibly be allowed to keep that $40 billion they have in the bank when it was gained illeaglly. Let’s look at the document … fine? fine? Oh. I see. No fine. So, “Justice” Department minions … what am I supposed to think about the settlement? I’m not supposed to think about it? Okay. Turning off my brain now. Bye-bye.
Hmmm, that’s interesting. Microsoft was ruled an illegal monopolist.
They were ruled to have abused their monopoly position. There’s no illegality in having a monopoly or being a monopolist, only in abusing that position. Furthermore, what was proven in the case was the means of that abuse, which was mostly tied to contractual terms with OEMs and ISPs/ISVs/etc.
Guess they’ll have to really pay for their transgressions now, huh? Yeah, let’s see — “I promise not to do so much illegal stuff in the future under pain of” … well there doesn’t seem to be any consequence whatever they do.
There are two groups formed by the judgment to ensure compliance with the order, one of which is formed by appointees of the states and DoJ, the other of which is formed by appointees of Microsoft (3, which cannot be past or current employees of Microsoft, and will vote in a compliance officer). The states’ committee determines if Microsoft has committed any violations of the settlement and brings those matters before the court, which can then decide on punishment for those actions.
But at least Microsoft has to pay a really, really big fine. I mean, how could they possibly be allowed to keep that $40 billion they have in the bank when it was gained illeaglly. Let’s look at the document … fine? fine? Oh. I see. No fine.
To quote directly from the second to last paragraph of the judgment: In accordance with the imposition and affirmance of liability, the Plaintiff States shall submit a motion for the award of costs and fees, with supporting documents as necessary, not later than 45 days after the entry of this Final Judgment.
There’s your fine, to be determined.
rajan said: “What is true is that Windows 3.1 was Microsoft’s feature, Microsoft product, and Ms-DOS is a requirement. The technical error that came up during the installation is very legitimate, cause you, I and Caldera have no proof Microsoft did it on purpose. Windows 3.1 also didn’t work on older versions of MS-DOS, after all.”
Bill Gates said: “You never sent me a response on the question of what things an app would do that would make it run with MSDOS and not run DR-DOS. Is there any version check or api they fail to have? Is ther feature they have that might get in our way? I am not looking for something they cant get around. I am looking for something their current binary fails on.” September 1988
And:
“Bill Gates ordered to all application business units to include checking routines of operating environments and if it is Microsoft DOS, nothing will happen. But if it is non MS-DOS (such as DR-DOS), application will display messages saying that ‘This application has been developed and tested for Microsoft MS-DOS. Since you use different environment, this application may not work correctly . . .’ ”
B. J. Bahk, August 9, 1989
A look at the ugly OEM deals:
“I took the opportunity to negotiate in German, sign our offer as is — this is an agreed upon package deal or if you change any component, we will too. Second option: scratch the DOS clause, pay $35 for Windows instead of $15. . . . In my judgment they will hurt if they do not ship WIN and paying $35 for it is out of the question.”
Joachim Kempin, March 26, 1991
This translates to: Ship OUR DOS or you pay over twice as much for Windows. Lovely. But maybe that wasn’t good enough. Here it’s spelled out:
“We are forcing them to NOT ship any DRI machines.”
Ron Hosogi, September 10, 1990
“Opus agreement has finally been signed by Redmond. Another DRI prospect bites the dust with a per processor DOS agreement.”
Microsoft OEM Status Report, October 1990
The FUD machine:
“We are engaged in a FUD campaign to let the press know about some of the bugs. We’ll provide info a few bugs at a time to stretch it out.”
Brad Silverberg, July 22, 1991
Now, back when I was a kid (teen) I used DR-DOS with Windows and it DID work, I don’t care what anyone says. Now take a look at this:
“We’re currently hearing from numerous callers (approx 150/day) who are experiencing severe incompatibilities with MS-DOS 5.00, to the point that PSS is unable to get the operating system to work successfully on their machines.”
Microsoft PSS Report, June 13, 1991
Go figure.
“Now, only months after the release of MS-DOS 5.0, DRI has again stepped ahead with the release earlier this month of DR DOS 6.0, which once again matches and exceeds the features and capabilities of Microsoft’s product.”
PC Week, September 30, 1991
“We need to slaughter Novell before they get stronger.”
Jim Allchin, September 9, 1991
Here’s some more fair practices by MS:
“There is an obvious conflict quickly approaching us, and I get the feeling we are not very prepared PR wise. The conflict is Windows 3.1 and DR-DOS. Apparently DRI is quite aware of our plans to not test with DR-DOS, our plan to not let them enter the Win 3.1 beta program, and our plan to detect the presence of MS-DOS and warn the user they are on an un-tested OS if MS-DOS is not detected.”
David Cole, November 7, 1991
“What the guy is supposed to do is feel uncomfortable, and when he has bugs, suspect that the problem is dr-dos and then go out to buy ms-dos. or decide not to take the risk for all the other machines he has to buy for in the office.”
Brad Silverberg, February 10, 1992
“heh, heh, heh . . .
my proposal is to have bambi refuse to run on this alien OS. comments?”
Phil Barrett, September 30, 1991
“Objectives: FUD DR DOS with every editorial contact made.”
MS-DOS 6 PR Plan, November 1992
“if they really release the version with all this junk in it, it will mean that for three ms-dos releases in a row (5, 6 and 7), DR will have had our key features in their product 12-18 months before us.”
Richard Freedman, March 26, 1993
“This really isn’t that hard. If you’re going to kill someone there isn’t much reason to get all worked up about it and angry — you just pull the trigger. Angry discussions before hand are a waste of time. We need to smile at Novell while we pull the trigger.”
Jim Allchin, September 18, 1993
“Compaq things they can distribute our os sw however they want. Joachim, you’ll need to check the contract on this. If they think they can distribute however they want, again, it’s a small step to putting other os software on the cd rom.”
Brad Silverberg, October 1, 1993
Those are just a few out-takes. It took me about 5 seconds to find that on Google, which I decided to do before offering an opinion (like yours) that was at least in part provably wrong. I’m not knocking you, but you should definitely read up a bit before making sweeping statements. It’s a fact that MS did go out of their way to break Windows running on DR-DOS. Everyone seems to have an “opinion” on the DR-DOS thing but no one seems interested in learning the well-documented facts of the case …
Lest anyone accuse me of being anti-MS or whatever, I’m typing this from an XP machine, so save it.