I’m a long-time Windows user, but for years I’ve been searching for an intelligent alternative. Macs are actually a great choice, but have you priced them lately? I don’t have two grand to spend for another system. I had been reading all the hoopla surrounding Xandros Desktop for a number of months and decided to take the plunge. I had been burned two times previously trying to install other Linux distributions. Their tech support was non-existent. I’m essentially working in a vacuum. When something has gone wrong in the past, I’ve found that I was on my own. I received my copy of Xandros Desktop only two business days after ordering. I opened the box and popped the CD in. So much has been written about Xandros installation that I won’t belabor it. Suffice it to say that it’s easier and faster than Windows. Anyone with a modest amount of Windows experience can easily set up Xandros, even if they choose the custom install and the machine already has Windows installed. I’ve installed it five times already. It took me 26 minutes the first time, and 17 minutes the last time.
Xandros picked up and correctly configured all of my hardware, including my wheel-mouse. All except my sound card, that is. More about that later. Both of my Ethernet cards were installed and I was able to connect to the internet instantly. No Internet Connection Wizard directing me towards MSN.
So what’s it like to run Xandros Desktop? It boots up very nicely, and after logging in, I got my first look at the KDE in years. Experienced Linux users already know that it’s very Windows-like. But I’m writing this article for people like myself – Windows users who are sick of Microsoft and want something —– else. The default desktop setting is 1024 X 768, which I changed by going into the Control Center. Right-clicking on the desktop and choosing properties gave me an error message and an invitation to report the bug, which I did. Xandros does have music when entering Xandros Desktop and shutting down, but no sounds that you can configure. You just have to go with the defaults.
I started looking around to find out what came with Xandros. Hmmm, let’s see. Two browsers (Konqueror and Mozilla); 2 e-mail programs (K-mail and Mozilla Mail), OpenOffice, a bunch of games, most of the major instant-messaging programs, and various other utilities I don’t completely understand yet. Drag-and-drop works just fine, even between Linux and FAT partitions. The games looked chintzy; the colors were relatively low-contrast. Their version of Solitaire is a perfect example. I tried the Xandros Networks, which is probably similar to Lindows’ Click ‘n Run. It has applications that you can select, and they download and install pretty quickly. I chose GnuCash, a money-management program similar to Microsoft Money, and Ximian Evolution, an e-mail client. Evolution looks a lot like Outlook, but it’s not as sophisticated. It’s O.K., but it needs work.
I installed Microsoft Office, and CrossOver Office picked up what I was doing right away. However, it would only let me install Word, Excel and IE 5.0. I knew it wouldn’t install Access, but I thought it would install Power Point and Outlook, but no such luck. If you don’t have MS Office, Xandros comes with OpenOffice, a suite of programs similar to MS Office. You can open, edit or create Word and Excel documents with it. I upgraded IE 5.0 to 5.5 with Windows Update and even installed the Google Toolbar, but it doesn’t work in Xandros. For some reason, it won’t let you place the cursor in the Google Toolbar to type anything.
A lot of the familiar keyboard shortcuts I like to use don’t work in Xandros, either. For example, Windows + M or Windows + D doesn’t minimize open windows. Alt + D doesn’t highlight the address in Mozilla, although Control + Enter does add the http://www. and the .com. Alt + Tab does move between open windows. Since I’m tri-booting (I have Windows 98, Windows XP and Xandros Desktop all on the same machine), I often forget and start using shortcuts in Xandros.
Burning CD’s was a disappointment as well. Xandros comes with a primitive CD-burning program called X-CD-Roast. It works – sort of – if you really know how to do it, but it’s neither intuitive nor user-friendly. If they’re looking to attract more Windows users, they’ll need to upgrade that.
Most of my other problems were related to my own inexperience with Linux. I can download Linux programs from the internet, but I don’t know how to unpack/unzip or install them, and I have no idea how to use WINE.
Xandros tech support seems to be first-rate. They were very attentive to my sound card problem. They not only promised to work on it immediately; they sent me an e-mail from time to time to reassure me that they hadn’t forgotten me. And they did find a fix after a little more than two weeks. Having a good attitude about tech support is something that can set a company apart. They also have Xandros forums, a part of their web site moderated by members of their tech support team, where users can post questions regarding anything relating to Xandros. Other users can and often do offer help and suggestions as well.
Longtime Linux users are probably scoffing at this distribution, but it’s not aimed at them. It’s for Windows users looking to take their first srious step into Linux. Knoppix and DemoLinux are fine to play with, and I recommend them for anyone wanting to take a risk-free look at Linux. But Knoppix doesn’t seem to run on older machines, and neither of them are useful for everyday computing.
Has Linux reached the point where it can replace Windows in the office or home? No, not yet. But this distribution shows that it’s getting closer to being a reality.
So what do I think? Is it worth it? No easy answer here. At $99.00, Xandros is one of the more expensive distros out there. But that’s still less than any legal copy of Windows, except maybe an upgrade CD. If you’re a Windows user who’s looking for a stable, easy-to-use introduction to Linux, I’d say “yes”, this is worth it. Plus you can keep Windows and set up a dual-boot. If this describes you, I’d say “go for it!”
My summary: Installation is a breeze and most normal computing tasks are easy and fairly Windows-like. This distro is crying for a firewall, and as mentioned above, the CD-burning program is as basic as it gets. Overall, I give it an 8 out of 10. It’s a winner.
About the author:
My name is Phil Hall and I live in central New York. I worked a help-desk for a major computer manufacturer for six months. I love/hate Windows, and I’m always willing to look at something that might be better.
I hope exandros will release a demo linusx version. I am really skeptical sicne it’s their first release adn their suinga dated KDE> But it sounds liek tehy’re doinga good job.
I got mine for 1499, a g4 tower.
The cheapest G4 tower (and not the lamely slow i/eMacs/ibooks) starts at $1700+tax. And if you want a monitor with it, you easily go ABOVE 2 grand.
BTW, this is a review of Xandros, and not a mac debate. I will mod down any other comment trying to start a fight about Macs.
But I’m writing this article for people like myself – Windows users who are sick of Microsoft and want something —– else …. Right-clicking on the desktop and choosing properties gave me an error message and an invitation to report the bug
Getting away from Microsoft doesn’t sound so bad, butI don’t know if I’d want this instead
lol
Seriously though, I don’t know why anyone hasn’t chimed in yet to either personally diss the author or claim that he was ‘using the wrong distro’, but I suspect it’ll happen sooner or later.
My thoughts echo his in that it’s not ready yet, but getting closer. Well, actually .. if you were hellbent on using something besides Microsoft, couldn’t afford a Mac, were willing to work through the initial headaches, and didn’t need much more software than the stock programs that come installed with the OS and the ‘click and run’ interface, then Linux might be right up your alley. Unfortunately though, the characteristics I just described certainlly doesn’t represent myself or anybody I know personally
I think I’m going to be a convert to Linux in a few months *or year* because I no longer use Windows anymore
.
I like the feeling of being in control of your computer!
well, phil had a different experience than i did.
i just installed xandros, and i’m posting this from xandros under mozilla.
– desktop properties
i received no error when right-clicking on the desktop & choosing properties.
plus there’s a dialog box for adjusting the refresh rate. sweet!
-change startup/shutdown sounds
launch(start)>control center>sound>system notifications>
kde system notifications>kde is starting up …or >kde is exiting
– solitare
what’s wrong with solitare? looks just fine to me.
plus it works like it’s supposed to. i actually play
freecell, and the ms version often has the spaces available
to move a row, but moves all but on card. dammit. most annoying.
whoever programmed freecell on xandros did a much better job
than the bozo at ms. also undo actually works, unlike the ms version.
-ms office
i put in the ms office 2000 cd, it autobooted, open office came up automatically,
and i installed everything except fast find and the stupid paperclip: ie, word,
excel, pp, access, outlook & frontpage. of course access lumbers along tyring to
access some non-existant resource (i’m guessing) and frontpage terminates just
after it loads, but pp seems ok. word, excel and ie work just fine.
– shortcuts
alt-tab works, that’s all i care about. the windows key bring up the start menu.
– burning cd’s
there’s a linux native installation of fireburner. haven’t installed it yet.
but i will once i have something to burn.
Does Crossover come with Xandros? If so then $99.00 is not so bad. I just paid $69.00 to download Crossover Office and Plugin. Works great for office 97. Now if it would run on FreeBSD under Linux emulation!
my favorite part of the ms office installation was at the very end where it asks to reboot. crossover office pops up a dialog box informing you to click “yes” in response to the ms office reboot dialog, and then simulates a reboot. saved 2 minutes of my life from not having to watch yet another needless os reboot.
>Does Crossover come with Xandros?
yes
I’ve dabbled for Linux since May 2000. Starting with Helix (now Ximian) Gnome, have since tried Red Hat, Mandrake, even Progeny, current Gnome etc. etc.
Despite my strong desire (and willingness to endure pain) I really couldn’t switch. Too many things didn’t work and were a major pain.
I recently decided to take the plunge for Xandros and it was night and day. I haven’t even installed MS Office (though I think I should). Things work, I play games, write emails, and even use it as my professional work desktop. Really no problems.
I personally think it’s not only amazing, but a revolution. When I see 8 out of 10, my reaction isn’t that the rating should be higher, but that ratings don’t apply.
We are now seing better Distributions everyday. It’s like if the Community was preparing this war for a long time and then goes to the battle field
Does Xandrose come with Crossover 1.3?
>Does Xandrose come with Crossover 1.3?
Yes, Xandros comes with the latest 1.3.x version.
However, no support is included and the 6 month upgrade contract you get if you buy from CodeWeavers is not included.
BTW, alt-tab works in KDE (Mandrake 9.0) also–maybe that a KDE function. But not the Windows key.
I’m very interested in Xandros, I certainly don’t have any problem with the price considering it includes both Crossover plugin and office. But I do have a couple of questions.
I’ve heard there might be some security issues. I think Lindows runs everything from root to make it easier for the user, but less secure. Is Xandros doing this?
And will you be able to get updates for free or will they start charging for a click and run like system as Lindows has? That, IMHO is going to kill Lindows before they get started and they plan to up the price of click and run from $99 to $199/year.
If you’ve already got Crossover and/or your looking at one of the free download versions, I sugest checking out Mandrake 9.0. I’ve been using Mandrake since 8.0 and this version is supurb. And you do have an advantage in that many times programs are precompiled for Mandrake and Red Hat in the .rpm format.
First of all, I would like to thank Phil for writing a review of Xandros from the point of someone completely (or almost completely) new to Linux. I think these first impressions of new users are important.
I am typing this post from a Xandros machine, and I have had several experiences with it, and Linux in general, that contradict Phil’s. Also, I would like to point out a couple of inaccuracies. I am doing so only for accuracy sake. I do not mean to be a jerk.
— I had been burned two times previously trying to install other Linux distributions. Their tech support was non-existent.
The company may have offered little or no tech support, and if company backed tech support is the point of the statement, then I have no complaint. However, I don’t think this causes one to be burned. I personally learned how to use Linux through Yahoo and Google and jumping in with both feet. I have never read a manual or book and I have never called tech support. I don’t think a lack of information or company backed tech support can be an excuse for not running Linux successfully since information is quite abundant on the Internet (since most people dual boot Linux to start, getting on the Internet should not be a problem either).
— Xandros picked up and correctly configured all of my hardware, including my wheel-mouse. All except my sound card, that is.
I have tested Xandros on three different machines. A Dell C800 Laptop, a dual Athlon MP machine and a single Athlon XP machine; all with different hardware. All of my hardware was autdetected correctly with the exception of the ATI all-in-wonder Radeon 7500 and Sony Multiscan E400 monitor combination. With that video card in the machine, Xandros cannot autodetect my monitor correctly. However, I think this is ATI’s fault because even under Windows this card often causes the machine to boot up into stupid, I-can’t-find-my-butt-with-both-hands 60Hz video mode. With my other video cards, my monitor was autodetected correctly. I think sometimes the OS is not to blame as much as crappy hardware.
— but no sounds that you can configure. You just have to go with the defaults.
This is incorrect. All you have to do is start Control Center, click on Sounds, then System Notifications, then KDE System Notifications. You can change these sounds (along with many others) right there.
— Windows Interoperability
I don’t think the author did justice to the large amount of work Xandros has put into their distro to make Windows interoperability as seemless as possible. This may be due to his lack of familiarity with Linux in general. I have to say that Xandros has done the best job at integrating Linux and Windows of any distro I have personally tried.
— A lot of the familiar keyboard shortcuts I like to use don’t work in Xandros, either.
This is not a problem. Linux generally has different shortcut keys, but you can easily change these shortcuts to your hearts content by launching Control Panel and clicking on General Settings and then clicking on Shortcut Keys.
— Burning CD’s was a disappointment as well.
I personally wouldn’t call XCDRoast a primitive CD Burning utility. It is my tool of choice. I find it quite flexible and robust.
— Has Linux reached the point where it can replace Windows in the office or home? No, not yet. But this distribution shows that it’s getting closer to being a reality.
Actually, this depends on who you are. I run Linux exclusively and have done so for several years. My wife isn’t ready to make the switch yet, so her machine runs Windows. I think it has more to do with your flexibility than anything else. Are you the type that doesn’t mind a different approach to solve the same problem? Or are you the kind that will complain because Linux isn’t exactly like Windows? The question of Linux being ready for the desktop is a unique one for each individual.
— Available Software
The article hints that there isn’t much software available for Xandros. This is a misconception (which the author did admit to) and is not correct. Xandros, being built upon Debian, has full access to all the Debian archives. Better yet, it is based on Debian’s stable branch instead of testing or unstable (as some other Debian based distros like Libranet are). Therefore, it is a very solid distribution as well.
— Xandros Bug
Xandros isn’t perfect. But it is quite good. One of the flaws I have seen is if you enable full Debian archive support for Apt, then the Xandros Networks tool fails to load if you launch it from its icon on the Launch menu. However, there is a workaround. If you type “http://localhost:8080“ in Mozilla’s Address bar, Xandros Networks works just fine.
I am a long time Linux user and mainly use Debian, but I think Xandros is a very good distribution. I hope Xandros does well.
I’ve heard there might be some security issues. I think Lindows runs everything from root to make it easier for the user, but less secure. Is Xandros doing this?
No, Xandros does not run as root (unless you want to). It doesn’t come with a firewall that I have found, but it is very easy to apt-get a program called firestarter (or something like that) which is a good firewall. Also, you can install Apache, FTP, and other services, but they are not on by default.
And will you be able to get updates for free or will they start charging for a click and run like system as Lindows has? That, IMHO is going to kill Lindows before they get started and they plan to up the price of click and run from $99 to $199/year.
There Xandros Networks is free right now. I don’t know what their future plans are. However, Debian security and software updates are always freely available.
If you’ve already got Crossover and/or your looking at one of the free download versions, I sugest checking out Mandrake 9.0. I’ve been using Mandrake since 8.0 and this version is supurb. And you do have an advantage in that many times programs are precompiled for Mandrake and Red Hat in the .rpm format.
I think a better option is to run something else.
I have tried several versions of Mandrake, and while the distro is very flashy, it also has always struck me as very buggy as well. I admittedly have not tried Mandrake since version 8.
If you already have the crossover products, I would recommend Libranet. It has an ugly text based installer (not that I personally mind) but it really is a great distribution and they have a very good support mailing list.
My thoughts echo his in that it’s not ready yet…
As I alluded to in a previous post, the question really isn’t “is Linux ready for the desktop?” anymore, but rather “are you ready for Linux?”.
…and didn’t need much more software than the stock programs that come installed with the OS and the ‘click and run’ interface, then Linux might be right up your alley.
I haven’t done a count of all the software available for Windows in the world and compared it to a count of all the software available for Linux, but I dare say that there is infinitely more software legally available to Linux users than there is available to Windows users. Why? Most Windows users don’t have the money to spend on licenses for products like:
– Microsoft Office
– Macromedia Studio
– Photoshop
– Illustrator
– SQL Serverallude
– VisualStudio .NET
ad nauseam.
Therefore, for most people the choice is to a) run Windows with what whatever stock programs came with their machine (Minesweeper, yay!), b) engage in illegal piracy of software, or c) Run Linux; amongst some other sundary choices.
For people who want to pirate software to fiddle with it, copying may be fine (for them), but what if you want sell a program you wrote using a pirated copy of VisualStudio, or create a successfull retail website using your pirated copy of Dreamweaver with graphics and multimedia content created with pirated copies of Photoshop and Flash? You can’t do it without risking legal action.
Having worked at several large software companies, a couple who create some of the above mentioned software packages, I can tell you that the files you create get watermarked with whatever license number and name you registered with. So if Microsoft, for example, wants to go and check out the watermark of the software package you are successfully selling all over the place, and they find it was created with a copy of VisualStudio that is registered to Snoopy using a pirated license, then you are incredibly screwed.
I am bringing this up because I have noticed in many Linux articles in the past that you bring up your misconcieved notion that there is little or no software available for Linux and that Windows offers a rich cornucopia of software delights for its users.
I’m just wondering if you understand that there is literally tons of software available for Linux, and also that the amount of software available for Windows is largely irrelevant if it is not legally available to the user.
Hi,
Thanks for the review, it was good one. It’s fascinating to see what Linux newbies think of their new desktop when it’s all “just worked” and they haven’t had to invest enormous effort to get it going. A few things:
As a previous poster has already pointed out you can change the sounds in the KDE Control Centre. Look at kde-look.org for the Clear Skys soundset which is excellent, far better than the default windows sounds imho.
In Mozilla you press Ctrl-L instead of alt-D to get to the address bar. This isn’t very obvious unfortunately.
To install more software you can use “apt-get install whatever” : being based on debian stable means a lot of the software you get that way will be out of date, but it will be more solid than it otherwise would.
Downloading software from the net *is* a pain in the ass, if you don’t use apt. You’ll also find that not all software can be got via apt, and that if you switch to another distro, apt may not be available at all. I’m working hard to address this issue, but it’s a big one. There will be an article on OSNews shortly I hope that explains why this is and talks about my own project a little.
Wine – heheheh. The developers are wine are truly the unsung heros of our age. You said you don’t know how to use Wine, well when you installed MS Office that’s exactly what you were doing. It’s kind of a shame that when Wine works correctly, it’s almost entirely seamless and people don’t realise what a technological miracle it is. To put things in perspective, to allow you to run MS Office apps in Linux, the Windows APIs have had to be reimplemented from scratch. There are over 10,000 of these APIs, though Wine/CrossOver doesn’t do all of them. Wine itself consists of over a million lines of code and 160 libraries. The fact that you can run any Windows programs at all in the way you can is unique to Linux. No, Wine isn’t perfect. At the moment, there are enough bugs that we have to concentrate on one app at a time to get it running. The more bugs that are fixed, and the more APIs that are implemented though, the more apps start working.
The Google toolbar issue sounds like a bug. I run IE6 with CrossOver pointed at WineCVS here, so I’ll install the toolbar later and see if I can see the problem. Note: it’s not a good idea to use IE for web browsing. IE really, really sucks as a web browser, if you use it on Linux it’s probably because either like me you need it for web development or because it’s just what you’re used to. If it’s the second, then learn Mozilla. It is miles better, safer and has more features.
I’m a bit worried that because of the Lindows hype and the increasing inclusion of CrossOver with distributions, people will expect Windows stuff to work (“why doesn’t the Google toolbar work?”). CrossOver is primarily intended to run Word, everything else hasn’t really been thoroughly tested, and even Word has its problems. This is still an amazing feat — running some Windows apps without the underlying OS. CodeWeavers is doing a good job, but I don’t really consider CrossOver a long term solution. It’s for those who want to delete Windows but still be able to run MS Office in case OpenOffice et al. can’t handle a particular document.
In general, if you want to switch to Linux, you should be ready and willing to learn new habits — new keyboard shortcuts, new applications, new features. Linux is not Windows, and a distribution should be rated based on how well it stands on its own, unless the distro-maker makes specific compatibility claims.
As for xcdroast, keep in mind that it’s just a front-end to cdrecord, a command-line utility. There are several other such front-ends for GNOME and KDE, and some of them are or will be similar to common Windows burning utilities. xcdroast does the job once you’re used to it (the task of file selection in particular is not as fast as it should be), and gives you access to pretty much every option you may want to set (which may be confusing to newbies).
One other aspect I dislike about Xandros is that since you are *required* to pay them 99 bucks, you may have certain expectations towards applications which are, individually, completely free of charge. I just hope people don’t piss off open source developers with complaints and expectations of tech support.
This is a burning utility more similar to what Windows users are used to:
http://k3b.sourceforge.net/
Screenshots:
http://k3b.sourceforge.net/index.php?page=screenshots.html
Perhaps Xandros will make it the default once it’s more mature.
>>The fact that you can run any Windows programs at all in the way you can is unique to Linux
Project ODIN (http://www.netlabs.org) on OS/2 does the same kind of thing. Not sure whether it’s as mature as Wine though.
Xandros looks good to me. I’ve only ever tried Linux once before in the days of Caldera’s Linux 1.1, and have been waiting since then for it to become more newbie-friendly. I’m planning on installing a removable-hard drive mechanism on my next PC so that I can have different drives for Windows, eComstation (the new OS/2), and Linux all physically separated. The only 2 reasons that I can think of to keep a Windows drive are: a) MS Access development of which I do an awful lot at work, and, more importantly, b) Age of Empires!
“I think a better option is to run something else.
I have tried several versions of Mandrake, and while the distro is very flashy, it also has always struck me as very buggy as well. I admittedly have not tried Mandrake since version 8.”
Well, then you’re comparing apples with pears.
Don’t compare with Win95/98/me (but with XP home). Don’t compare with Mandrake 8.0. Or compare the very beta versions of Xandros (then still Corel Linux..) with those.
Especially if you’re going to say that the mandrake tools are buggy. I won’t say they aren’t, but they have certainly come a long way since 1.5 years (which is very long in linuxland).
I’ll stay with my earlier comments: Mandrake is a great linux distro for beginners, I also tried RedHat8.0, not bad but less easy for beginners. SuSE I won’t touch until I can download and burn to cd’s that I can redistribute.
Xandros is something I would give a try if I could download it for free (I really loved Corellinux, that was the most direct threat to MSWin from the linux grounds ever), but it sounds like it’s of to a good start.
And for someone wanting to get away from windows, not wanting to switch to Apple (why get away from the software monopolist to go to a place where you’re also locked in in terms of hardware, imho), but not wanting the Full Linux Experience (TM) (that indeed requires quite an effort, just as DOS did, or UNIX, or any real system), Xandros seems like a good place to start.
BTW they apparently really understood ‘support’, that paragraph impressed me.
Of course, to get help with linux is not so hard, one of the few things I really disagree on in the article, that it sounds like you never got help with the other distros you used before (vacuum you mentioned – weird, I usually found more help on linux forums than on windows forums; but maybe it was your internet connection that wasn’t working for you) — ok, you have to know where to go, but it’s not that hard.
BTW to really use MSwindows well, and some of the software on that platform, also requires to go out and search a lot on the web; people make it sound like MSwin is so easy, everything just works, and with linux that’s not the case etcetc. Well, it just isn’t true. Especially when your hd (C:) gets full, and windows wants more swap, or things like that. Or what settings you have to use to make good audio-cd copies, and that you have to use EAC to rip, and DAO to avoid 2 sec. pauses etcetc.
In many ways the usability of MSWin is very overrated, so I feel that often people are not comparing in a fair way – installing linux may be ‘not easy’, it is not harder than installing windows, and much faster (all is installed, incl drivers and software). But the windows pc came preinstalled.
People forget that at some point you will want to reinstall that one too.
Anyway, I hope that soon there will be more linux-preinstalled pc’s available, with Lycoris/LindowsOS/Xandros/Mandrake etc.
I think Knoppix is the best distri for desktop users available. But unfortunately it is just a live-CD. However it can be installed on hard disc
Altough it sounds pretty good, I do wonder why Xandros didn’t take some time to redesign their dialogs and other windows from their own software..
The ‘interface-with-large-geeky-and-not-so-good-looking-buttons’ software isn’t good enough anymore.
“Lindows…….they plan to up the price of click and run from $99 to $199/year.”
Where did you get THAT information? I am a Lindows insider and nowhere have I seen or heard that price mentioned for a membership. The price is $99 to become a member for a year. They have not decided on a renewal fee cause they have a year to do so. It $99 or it may be less, but it will NOT be $199. Now if you want to be an Insider, that fee has gone up to $299 for TWO years of CNR and access to all interim beta releases. Please get the facts straight before you post something like that. And besides, what does the price of Lindows have to do with Xandros anyway?
I do not understand the title comment by Phil Hall. I do understand that he like Windows better and that Windows fits him better at this time because he wants to use Windows apps like Office and the Google toolbar. That is his perogative. What I do not understand is that a distro that contains an Office Suite, a photo editor, cd-burner software and multimedia editing apps is a lesser value then Windows. After all, MS Office cost a lot more $0.
Iconoclast,
You really have a good point there!
Phil, thanks for the review. It has created the best Xandros discussion yet on OS News. It seems like when one of “us” writes, it always seems to bring the rest of us out to comment.
As we’ve seen in other threads, there are so many articles and reviews about so many Linux distros, it has become dizzying. Each one seems to have at least one part of it that is unique and Xandros certainly qualifies. Even without Crossover, Xandros is very friendly, has great hardware detection and things work. I don’t know, of course, how all of this will shake down with all these distros, but it could be that Xandros may be the one that many will want to install side by side with Windows. Thanks again!
Does Xondros or any other distro fully redetect HW each and every boot, ie can the HD+OS be moved between entirely different systems that are themselves ok with the distro? If not, does any of them plan on going that direction?
” Does Xondros or any other distro fully redetect HW each and every boot, ie can the HD+OS be moved between entirely different systems that are themselves ok with the distro? If not, does any of them plan on going that direction?”
Yes Xandros checks for new hardware each and everytime (e.g. attach a new monitor and it will automatically configure it upon rebooting). So I imagine it does what you require. The HW detection actually slows down the boot time a little.
Xandros people are aware that Xcdroast is not an ideal solution for newbies burning CDs. It appears that they are designing some new software for this in the future. This is a quote from an employee at Xandros on their support forum:
“We’re well aware of this. We shipped xcdroast because it works reliably but it is not our long term solution. I can’t announce anything yet but I can say that some of the originally developers of Easy CD Creator (formerly a Corel product) work at Xandros.”
Link: http://forums.xandros.com/viewtopic.php?t=141&sid=ee57d0126c067eafa…
Why don’t the Wine, Crossover, Transgamming crews get together with Lycrois, Xandros, Lindows and start a logo program for compatibility? Both are now good enough to start shopping to real developers.
The logo push would go after the < $20 software crowd. (The majority of the “massive” windows software.) Come up with a logo program that certifies the Windows 98 level product to also work on Wine/ Crossover. With minor tweaking most of the stuff out there would work–and Linux would get lots of converts.
Remember, there are far more PC’s out there with Win 98 that are about to be abandon by MS. That is a huge market of little people (the Walmart crowd) that these companies shoud go after.
Personally, I have tried the demo of Lycoris. It’s very cool, I like it. Honestly, I could set my people that have seen XP in front of it and they could do OK with it. I haven’t tried it at work yet, but I may get the full version of their office desktop with full support for windows networking and mainframe terminals!
Hi!
I just want to ask for your experience w/ wine and/or crossover. We would like to install linux for an office, and they need ms office for their work. I’d like to know if getting ms office work for is only possible w/ crossover things, or w/ (as i know gpl) wine too? Maybe anybody installed it succesfully?
just a thought on xcdroast: althought it’s a great program, it’s far from the ideal for a distro like this imho. There ara many more windowish progs for that, like koncd, cdbakeoveb, gtoaster etc. All of them would be more comfortable for (ex:)win users imho.
Eugiena: it’s offtopic here, but i’ll really miss your articles here. You’ve done a great work here, hope you’ll find your hapiness in whatever you’ll do in the future. You know, you’ll always be wellcome here!
bye, hirisov
You can set up the Windows-M etc. keyboard shortcuts in the kde control panel.
Some things from an earlier reply echoes replies found on most of the other articles of this flavor that come out. It’s these things that I think makes Linux ‘egocentric’ to the average computer user (ie. people you’ll never see on this site).
“I personally learned how to use Linux through Yahoo and Google and jumping in with both feet. I have never read a manual or book and I have never called tech support. I don’t think a lack of information or company backed tech support can be an excuse for not running Linux successfully since information is quite abundant on the Internet (since most people dual boot Linux to start, getting on the Internet should not be a problem either). ”
Sorry, but Phil has it right on. It’s these kinds of replies that are severely hindering Linux because they don’t represent 95% of the users out there. From your reply, you clearly have enough time on your hands and the will to learn Linux. The rest of the world doesn’t want to spend more time tinkering with something than actually doing the thing they were interested in the first place. Most people don’t have jobs where they can spend hours hunting down internet help and, when they get home, don’t want to spend all their free time “working.”
“I don’t think the author did justice to the large amount of work Xandros has put into their distro to make Windows interoperability as seemless as possible. This may be due to his lack of familiarity with Linux in general. I have to say that Xandros has done the best job at integrating Linux and Windows of any distro I have personally tried. ”
Most of the world doesn’t give a damn about how much work someone put into something. If it works, they are willing to show their gratitude with their wallet and/or their time. I didn’t ask Ford how much time they spent improving my vehicle over the last model and I certainly don’t care if someone spent 10,000 man-hours making something that still doesn’t live up to my expectations.
“Actually, this depends on who you are. I run Linux exclusively and have done so for several years. My wife isn’t ready to make the switch yet, so her machine runs Windows. I think it has more to do with your flexibility than anything else. Are you the type that doesn’t mind a different approach to solve the same problem? Or are you the kind that will complain because Linux isn’t exactly like Windows? The question of Linux being ready for the desktop is a unique one for each individual.”
Again, you make it sound like everyone has a load of time on their hands that they can whittle away on Linux or something else (apparently less important). For most people it’s not like that. Work is work and not the time for a crash course on Linux. And home life…well, there just isn’t that much time there as it is. And it’s not a complaint to say things aren’t as easy as they could/should be. I may not like Microsoft or Bill Gates, but until a Linux distro can tie or beat the benchmark that they’ve set, I don’t think defending Linux distros helps one iota.
And for the curious, I work in a shop that uses everything from win98 to win2000 to IRIX to several flavors of Linux (SW and RH). Yet, at the end of the day, I use win2000pro at home. Why? Averaging time spent across all apps including the OS, I get more work done on windows than on Linux. Too much time is still spent chasing down command switches, editing config files, looking for ways around buggy menu systems, trying to guess where menu commands are hidden, and working out file dependencies.
Paul is right, we have to “go out of ourselves” and look at these distros from the point of view of the end user – the average user. I don’t mean that we cannot talk about the merits or demerits of a distro here among ourselves, but when we start talking about the end user, we have to leave that behind.
That is why I think Lindows pre-installed has a shot, no matter the various things that could be said against Lindows. The Xandros Netwaork doesn’t have much on it yet and the same is true of Lycoris’ IRIS, although they have more. So, it will be interesting to see if Xandros is able to get their Network to be a good download library.
J.J wrote:
>Does Xondros or any other distro fully redetect HW each >and every boot, ie can the HD+OS be moved between entirely >different systems that are themselves ok with the distro? ———————————-
A while ago I installed Mandrake 8.2 and Win98 SE(dual boot) on an old Pentium PC I had. After playing with it for a while, I built a new Athlon XP 1600 PC, then swapped the old hard-drive (with both Mandrake 8.2/Win98 SE installs on it) into the new box.
Just for giggles, I powered it up without wiping the hard drive and re-installing. To my surprise, Mandrake 8.2 came up beautifully without any problems and ran perfectly. Remember, this was a different motherboard chipset, different CPU (AMD, not Intel), different video card, different NIC – pretty much everything was different! (Though I did have the all the drives in the same places on the IDE chain as before, i.e. primary master was 1st hard drive, primary slave was 2nd hard drive, secondary master was CD-ROM, secondary slave was CD-RW, which presumably kept LILO happy).
I then (just for more giggles) tried booting into the old Win98 SE install. As I expected, the install was totally hosed and never got beyond a slew of error messages followed by a freeze.
So I would say the answer to your question is a qualified yes. Yes, it worked on the two systems I tried. But I do not know if it would work between any two PC’s with Linux-compatible hardware.
Despite all of Linux’ imperfections, it continues to amaze me what an amazing end product has grown out of Richard Stallman’s idealism, Linus Torvald’s urge to scratch an intellectual itch, and the voluntary contributions of thousands of faceless developers.
-Aster Oid
Hey, good review and even better comments.
especially informative ones from Iconoclast and Xiricon.
I do think it’s time to retire the surprized/releived tone
that always seem to accompany the news that hardware
was smoothly detected. They all do this now… and while
we are at the installs are all pretty much no-brainers.
(redhat, mandrake, suse,xandros,lindows,lycoris, even
Libranet .. yeah they all have it pretty well nailed.
Xandros seems to be out in front for the Newbie Distros
But is this a surprize? After all this is Corel Linux
reborn. They have a head start over lycoris and lindows.
Here is my recommended migration path.
Winders –>Xandros –>Libranet—>Debian Itself.
Double boot by all means.
Migration like so many things in the Linux world is
optional.
Finally well as a transition move, running MS apps is
good, the goal should be to get off the MS and on to
real open standards.
I haven’t done a count of all the software available for Windows in the world and compared it to a count of all the software available for Linux
Really? I would’ve never guessed
but I dare say that there is infinitely more software legally available to Linux users than there is available to Windows users. Why? Most Windows users don’t have the money to spend on licenses for products like:
– Microsoft Office
– Macromedia Studio
– Photoshop
– Illustrator
– SQL Serverallude
– VisualStudio .NET
ad nauseam.
And of course, you go and list the most expensive apps you can find. Let’s say I create (for a living) Flash intros for websites using a pirated version of Macromedia Studio. So, what am I supposed to do? Drop Windows and switch to Linux? Then what? Simply use the Linux version of Macromedia Studio? Oh wait, I forgot .. there IS no Linux version!! By making the switch, what exactly have I accomplished? Freedom from the Great Satan? *pffffft*
Therefore, for most people the choice is to a) run Windows with what whatever stock programs came with their machine (Minesweeper, yay!), b) engage in illegal piracy of software, or c) Run Linux; amongst some other sundary choices.
Ok, why do you assume that a) Every single commercial Win32 app is $400+ and b) All Windows software must be used illegally?
I’m just wondering if you understand that there is literally tons of software available for Linux, and also that the amount of software available for Windows is largely irrelevant if it is not legally available to the user.
Not legally available? My friend, simply go to your nearest CompUSA, walk down the software isles, and you will see just how much software is ‘legally available’ to the user. Most of it is just crap to you and me, but Joe User really loves this stuff!
I have a friend for whom I recently replaced a hard drive for, and she had like 20-30 of these programs, and NONE of them were more than $50, and I’d guess there were Linux equivalents for maybe 5-6 of them. (If you can find a Linux version of “Pooh’s Print Studio”, then you are most certainly a better man than I
)
Sure, Linux has tons of stuff available, but how easily obtainable is it to the average (most illiterate) Windows user? Click and run is great and all, but outside of that and it’s RPM -i whatever, hehe .. uh uh.
Why must I always re-explain things to people? Sheesh!
And of course, you go and list the most expensive apps you can find.
I only listed these apps because some of them are the ones that Darius (and others) usually brings up when he/she goes on a “Linux has no apps” tirade.
Let’s say I create (for a living) Flash intros for websites using a pirated version of Macromedia Studio. So, what am I supposed to do?
You are supposed to go out a buy a license for Macromedia Studio! If you are selling work you did on an illegal copy of Macromedia to innocent consumers, you suck! Pry open your slimy wallet and fork over some of the cash your paying customers gave you and buy a license!
…Drop Windows and switch to Linux? Then what? Simply use the Linux version of Macromedia Studio? Oh wait, I forgot .. there IS no Linux version!! By making the switch, what exactly have I accomplished? Freedom from the Great Satan? *pffffft*
I don’t know what orifice you pulled this out of. You’re the one talking about Satan, Freedom and some wingnut political stance against Microsoft, not me. My point was simply that there are more apps legally available to Linux users than most Windows users. I explained the reason why as well; user’s finances. If you disagree, please do not resort to name calling, straw man projection tactics and cheap shots, simply express your opinions and back them up with facts; like a regular person.
Ok, why do you assume that a) Every single commercial Win32 app is $400+ and b) All Windows software must be used illegally?
I didn’t assume any such thing. I only used expensive applications to save on typing. I figured most people would be able to extrapolate from that data and arrive at the same conclusion regardless of the cost of the software. For example, assume that all Windows software only cost $10.00 per license. If a Linux user has 5,000 different, free software applications available to them to use, then the Windows user would have to spend $50,000 to obtain an equall number of software applications. Most people don’t have that kind of money; and therefore Windows users don’t have that kind of choice.
To answer your b) comment, if you don’t have the money to buy software, but are still using it, then you are using it…? What? Illegally, right? I knew you’d get it.
Not legally available? My friend, simply go to your nearest CompUSA, walk down the software isles, and you will see just how much software is ‘legally available’ to the user. Most of it is just crap to you and me, but Joe User really loves this stuff!
Um, I think the whole of OSNews, with the exception of you, understood my point. I’ll say it again slowly. It is not that Windows software isn’t available at your local giant software mega-mart. It is that people’s finances limit the Windows software they can buy; and therefore legally use. So my statement that Linux users have more software available to them than Windows users do because Windows software isn’t free is true (I hope you can finally see that). I only made this statement in response to Darius’ often repeated misconceived notion that there isn’t any software for Linux.
I have a friend for whom I recently replaced a hard drive for, and she had like 20-30 of these programs, and NONE of them were more than $50…
Those programs would have cost her how much? $1,000 to $1,500 right? How many people have a free $1,500 sitting around? For those that do, does 20-30 apps compare remotely to the thousands of apps available to Linux users for much less money (usually $0)?
…and I’d guess there were Linux equivalents for maybe 5-6 of them. (If you can find a Linux version of “Pooh’s Print Studio”, then you are most certainly a better man than I
)
There are many programs on Linux that Windows doesn’t have an alternative for. What’s your point? Please, if you’re going to start a big debate with me and try to put me in my place, at least do me the coutesy of staying on topic. I hate it when people whip up a straw man anti-Microsoft persona, project it on me, and then try to pelt me with vebal tomatoes for things I never said. I never said that people have to dump Windows and use Linux. I don’t care what you use. That’s as dumb as saying you should wear only blue tones, leather belts and Hushpuppies. Why on Earth would I want to concern myself with what you wear (either on your body or your computer)?
My only care is that somebody who has never tried Linux would be turned off by some posters false statement regarding Linux. When I see a statement that is false, I will provide a correction, an alternative point of view and a positive experience with Linux. Don’t let it bother you. I’m not bothered that you like Windows. I simply don’t care.
Sure, Linux has tons of stuff available, but how easily obtainable is it to the average (most illiterate) Windows user? Click and run is great and all, but outside of that and it’s RPM -i whatever, hehe .. uh uh.
It is very easily obtainable and easily installable. It is different than Windows in many cases, but exactly the same in others. What’s your point and how does it relate to what I was talking about?
I want to thank all of you who took the time to read and respond to my review of Xandros Desktop. There were some intelligent, interesting and helpful comments,and I did learn some things. It did seem that a few respondents didn’t read the article in the spirit it was written: A Windows user who wants to change and actually jumped in. I realize that not everyone who tries Xandros will have the exact same experience I did, but that’s true about almost anything (think Windows). Some respondents seemed to think I was trashing Xandros; on the contrary, I feel it is certainly one of the best, if not THE best distribution out there for Windows refugees.
I did express my frustration with the CD burner. If you’re used to Nero or Adaptec, X-CD-Roast is pretty primitive. I did burn one CD with it, but it was such a hassle that now I just boot back into Windows for burning. It’s not that it doesn’t work, but the average Windows user just isn’t going to be able to figure it out without help.
Some writers didn’t seem to think the lack of a firewall was such a big deal. I do. Someone commented that I didn’t like the fact that Xandros didn’t load all of my Office applications, even though I clearly selected them. Well, it didn’t. If it installed them for you, great. I just related my experience. I did make a point of commenting on OpenOffice, which I think is a great addition, since not everyone has MS Office.
So I’ll stand by my original review; top to bottom. And I still say that if you’re thinking about expanding your computing experience from Windows to include Linux, Xandros is probably the best place to start. I have no beef with Lindows or Lycoris; in fact, I wish them well. I just feel that, right now, Xandros Desktop is the best value.
Sorry, but Phil has it right on. It’s these kinds of replies that are severely hindering Linux because they don’t represent 95% of the users out there.
Why is it that someone makes a false statement (“There is no help available when it comes to Linux”) and I provide a correction (“There’s lots of help merely a Google search away”) you write to tell me that’s not how people do it? Well, if it is the right thing to do, the answers are there, and it works then shouldn’t people start doing it instead of whining? One would think.
From your reply, you clearly have enough time on your hands and the will to learn Linux. The rest of the world doesn’t want to spend more time tinkering with something than actually doing the thing they were interested in the first place.
First of all, a Google search turns up answers quite quickly, and yes, I do have the will to learn; concerning many things, not just Linux.
As for the second part of the last segment of your post, if you don’t want to spend any time and effort to learn Linux, then don’t. Stick with Windows and quit trying Linux. Stiffle your desire to try every new “Linux has finally taken over the desktop” distribution and be content where you are because Linux will always be different and always require some up front effort on your part to use. To expect anything else is silly.
Most people don’t have jobs where they can spend hours hunting down internet help and, when they get home, don’t want to spend all their free time “working.”
I have a job too. I am a manager over several people and am responsible for their jobs as well; it is very time consuming. I have a family and don’t want to come home and work either. Yet somehow I learned Linux through hands on trial and error and Google searches. If you don’t like my methods, don’t use them. Stick with Windows.
Most of the world doesn’t give a damn about how much work someone put into something. If it works, they are willing to show their gratitude with their wallet and/or their time. I didn’t ask Ford how much time they spent improving my vehicle over the last model and I certainly don’t care if someone spent 10,000 man-hours making something that still doesn’t live up to my expectations.
I don’t believe you wrote a review of any Ford products either did you? Phil chose to do so for Xandros. To not be thorough in his review of Xandros and give them credit where it is due is irresponsible. However, I realize that Phil is new to Linux, so I don’t fault him for that. I just provided the information for other readers on this list who may be happy to know that Xandros is almost seamless when integrating it in into a Windows network.
Again, you make it sound like everyone has a load of time on their hands that they can whittle away on Linux or something else (apparently less important).
I never said any such thing. I didn’t spend large amounts of time learning Linux. You pulled this assumption out of the private files of your own brain. Don’t blame me for them. All I said is that whether or not Linux is ready for the desktop is not really the question. The question is whether you individually are ready to use Linux as a desktop or not. I am. You may not be. I believe my statement is valid. If you don’t, feel free to formulate an opinion of your own. I don’t mind.
For most people it’s not like that. Work is work and not the time for a crash course on Linux.
I never said to do it at work did I?
And home life…well, there just isn’t that much time there as it is. And it’s not a complaint to say things aren’t as easy as they could/should be. I may not like Microsoft or Bill Gates, but until a Linux distro can tie or beat the benchmark that they’ve set, I don’t think defending Linux distros helps one iota.
Well see Paul, that’s where we don’t see eye to eye. I think that Linux has surpassed the standard set by Microsoft. Linux is far better suited for the kinds of tasks I use my computer for. What do I do? I write articles and stories. I write computer programs and web applications. I have automated many of the lights in my home through my computer. I maintain a web site. I watch TV on my computer. I sort and filter email for all the computers in my house on my computer. My computer is a firewall. My computer has not crashed or been rebooted in over two years. My computer is a jukebox of all my music which can be accessed from the other computers and the stereos in my house.
Another thing. Saving a file is saving a file. You don’t have to learn what files are again when switching to Linux. You just have to learn a few steps to saving a file that may be different from Windows. Big deal. This is also where Google comes in very handy. You type “saving a file linux” and you’ll most likely find your answer (or a variety of them). Are you willing or ready to do that? If so, then Linux may be for you. If not, then stick with Windows.
And for the curious, I work in a shop that uses everything from win98 to win2000 to IRIX to several flavors of Linux (SW and RH). Yet, at the end of the day, I use win2000pro at home. Why? Averaging time spent across all apps including the OS, I get more work done on windows than on Linux. Too much time is still spent chasing down command switches, editing config files, looking for ways around buggy menu systems, trying to guess where menu commands are hidden, and working out file dependencies.
Then is sounds like you are at home and happy with Windows. If you are content why switch? If Linux makes you unhappy, don’t use it. At the same time, however, please don’t disrespect those who find Linux to be as close to computing paradise as they can get and wish to share their success excitement with others. Everyone is different and has different needs. You may not be ready or willing to use Linux as a desktop. I am. This is why I believe the question isn’t whether or not Linux is ready for the desktop, but rather individually, are we ready to run Linux as a desktop.
Please allow those who are undecided the opportunity to find their comfort level without having to wade through inaccuracies, anger, frustration, political nonsense, etc.
I am grateful that you did a review of your experiences with Xandros from the perspective of a new user. I think Linux is a great OS, but it could use some polish. Functionally it does everything I want it to, but there are those little things every now and then that can frustrate new users (as you pointed out). Making these things known is important I think.
Having written an article on OSNews before too, I know that no matter the amount of thought and effort you put into an article, people are always going to question why you chose to do it one way vs. another, or why you left such and such out, or some other critisism. They don’t understand that you can’t possibly do a full mental dump of all your knowledge into one 5 page document. I hope you don’t let any of it bother you. Without people like you writing articles, there wouldn’t be a place for all the critics and complainers to congregate.
You give our whiny lives meaning. 
I enjoyed your article a lot and hope you do more. Thanks for your efforts.
First of all, to clear up any confusion/misconceptions, I am also WorknMan. I normally use the handle ‘Darius’ on this board .. WorknMan was just a case of using the wrong handle on the wrong board
I only listed these apps because some of them are the ones that Darius (and others) usually brings up when he/she goes on a “Linux has no apps” tirade.
AFAIK, I’ve never listed any of the ones you mentioned, but you did bring up a couple of good ones that I neglect to mention because I don’t personally use them
And no, our argument is not that Linux has no apps, it’s that Linux does not have THESE apps and THESE apps are what we use and love. Sometimes it’s not a matter of learning how to send an email attachment in Linux. Sometimes its a matter of apps or features that are severely limited or missing altogether.
You are supposed to go out a buy a license for Macromedia Studio! If you are selling work you did on an illegal copy of Macromedia to innocent consumers, you suck! Pry open your slimy wallet and fork over some of the cash your paying customers gave you and buy a license!
Yes, I agree with you completely, but you totally missed my point. You go off and say that there is more software legally available under Linux. Well, tell this to the guy who uses Macromedia Studio for a living. If even there were 3 million free apps available for Linux, if none of those offer the functionality of Macromedia Studio, then what difference does it make? Well, if you don’t use Macromedia Studio, it makes no difference. But if you use it profesionally, then it becomes the single most critical app that you use. You said in a previous post that I think it has more to do with your flexibility than anything else. So, what is the Macromedia Studio guy supposed to do? Churn out Flash content using vi?
I don’t know what orifice you pulled this out of. You’re the one talking about Satan, Freedom and some wingnut political stance against Microsoft, not me.
I never said you said any of that. I was asking you that if Linux doesn’t have the apps I need/want to use, then what good is it, and what difference does it make how many apps are available and how cheap they are? The “Bill Gates is Satan” crap is just the typical response I normally get from the Linux zealots, as it ALWAYS boils down to the revolution as to why I should PERSONALLY switch. And if you think that I’m better off with Windows, then I’ve got no problem with you
Well, except for your notion that nobody can afford to buy Windows software and therefore must pirate it all. Out of the 20-30 apps my friend has, some of them are pirated, some of them are bought, and most came with her computer. Also, most people I know have no problem using pirated software at all. It’s all a matter of conscience – I don’t judge people one way or the other over it.
Please allow those who are undecided the opportunity to find their comfort level without having to wade through inaccuracies, anger, frustration, political nonsense, etc.
I think that there is are even bigger inaccuracies surrounding Linux than there are Windows zealots spouting crap about Linux, which is why I guess I’m so passionate about this.
For example, a Linux zealot would never tell somebody that by choosing to switch to Linux, they lose the freedom of being able to go out and buy most new pieces of hardware and have the drivers (or even the hardware itself) officially supported by the manufacturere running on their Linux OS. They lose the freedom to go out and buy new’off-the-shelf’ PC games and have them work in their OS, except for whatever WineX happened to support at the time. They lose the freedom to be able to run different kinds of hardware that only work in Windows, or have the functionality of that hardware severly limited because the support for it under Linux is still in alpha. (Pocket PC anyone?) They will lie and say that Linux is infinitely more stable than Windows, which has been untrue for quite some time. (True in some cases, not in others).
I will readily admit that if the apps you use demand that security be of utmost importance, you’re probably going to be better off in Linux. I also never claimed that Windows does it all better, and I am quite away that the opposite is also true in a lot of cases. I’m just tired of this notion that “Oh, you can do all the things in Linux that you can do in Windows, you just have to do a Google search to figure out how.” And no, you didn’t specifically say that, but your little ‘flexability’ comment most certainly implies it.
And yes, I know there is software in Linux that isn’t available in Windows. My whole point is that a user should select his/her OS based on the applications that he/she wants to run, not on the technical merits of a particular OS. Because at the end of the day, it’s all about the apps and nobody (except for the most hardcore geeks) use their computer soley to dick with the OS. And I personally believe that if most of these reviews would center around feature-for-feature comparisons of the best apps that each OS runs instead of “Oh, look .. Linux is easy to install, and it comes with Open Office!”, though it might win quite a few races in the server department, but in the realm of desktop apps, Linux wouldn’t stand a chance in most software categories.
Oh yeah … one last thing. I wish people would lay off this “Linux has thousands of applications” shit. If you took out all the gcc/c++ libraries , the console CD players, mail & newsreaders, the 500 emacs clones, the 300 command shells, etc .. etc from the list … and were left with apps that most people actually used (ie – apps with clickable menus, toolbars, etc), what are you left? Quite a number of apps, yes .. but thousands? Doubtful.
I thought that was you. The writing style was very similar.
Just a few quick comments.
First of all, I don’t care what anybody runs. My last posts were from my Debian machine, and this one is from my Windows XP machine. I am quite flexible in what I use and I don’t care one way or another about what anybody else uses. I do care that people are accurate when posting about either of these operating systems, and I will usually comment if I see inaccuracies; intended or otherwise.
Well, except for your notion that nobody can afford to buy Windows software and therefore must pirate it all. Out of the 20-30 apps my friend has, some of them are pirated, some of them are bought, and most came with her computer. Also, most people I know have no problem using pirated software at all. It’s all a matter of conscience – I don’t judge people one way or the other over it.
Well, that statement right there sort of makes my point that in order to have Windows be useful to them, users either have to fork over large amounts of money, or illegally use the software. Users don’t have to face that moral dilemma under Linux. Also, not many users lives depend upon Macromedia. Most users check email, write documents, balance a checkbook, play Freecell, etc. They can accomplish all of that on Linux quite easily.
If your livelyhood does depend on Macromedia, then you had better have a legal copy. If your stuff permeates the market enough to get noticed by these companies, and they find your web pages, graphics, etc. have been created with the Long John Silver version of Dreamweaver, you may find your livelyhood significantly taxed by Macromedia.
So, to answer your question, if somebody absolutely had to have Macromedia products to support their family, but couldn’t afford them, what would they do? Well, let me give you a personal example.
I used Borland’s C++ Builder to create Windows applications, and InstallSheild to deploy them, for a number of years. It was the first development environment I learned and the only one I knew. However, a few years ago, Borland and InstallSheild raised their prices far beyond what I was willing to pay (not to mention the costs of custom VCLs). My choices were to pirate C++ Builder and the other software, or to learn a different approach. I chose to take the legal route and learned how to write dynamic web apps using Java Servlets. I stopped writing Windows applications and instead created browser based applications. I ended up making more money, increasing my programming skills significantly, and I had a lot more fun on my programming projects because the scope was so much larger (instead of doing pretty front ends to databases, I moved to hotel reservation systems, Human Resource software, etc). I am very thankful that I was flexible at that particular crossroad in my life.
…And no, you didn’t specifically say that, but your little ‘flexability’ comment most certainly implies it.
Actually, my flexibility comment is quite accurate I think. If your goal is to write a letter to someone and you’re hellbent on doing it in Word, then your focus is not on the desired result, but rather on the method and using something you know. That being the case, it is probably best that you stick with Word (I am not an advocate of running Windows applications under Linux either, so this would mean sticking with Windows).
On the other hand, if you are only interested in the outcome, or the letter, then you could type it in StarOffice, Hancom Office, KOffice, Abiword, or even VIM. You wouldn’t care, as long as you got your letter.
The first person is better off sticking to what they are used to. The flexible person, who is only interested in results and doesn’t care how they get them, would probably do fine with any of the several desktop centric Linux distros available today.
Finally, you made this comment, “…Oh, you can do all the things in Linux that you can do in Windows“. I’m sorry Darius, but it is true. Personally, I can do everything I do with Windows with Linux. Does that mean I can run Macromedia products under Linux? No. It does mean, however, that I can use any of a number of programs available under Linux to create the same things that you might use Macromedia Studio to create. There are some things, however, that I am unable to do under Windows that I can do with Linux, which is why I like it so well.
I don’t begrudge you using Windows. Do whatever feels good and be happy. I would suggest that you have a live and let live attitude towards Linux users as well. Don’t begrudge them for their OS choice.
As for your C++-to-Java example, I now understand what your idea of ‘flexability’ is. It’s not just learning how to do the same thing you were doing before in a different enviroment (ie – learning how to write letters in Open Office instead of Word), it’s learning how to do something completely different because your OS isn’t up to the task of doing what you were doing before. I know that in your case, it was more a case of your pocket book than it was the OS or its apps, but your example still applies. If I make a living writing database frontends in Visual Basic.NET, I can’t do that in Linux. Flexability would be picking up a Linux alterantive that would allow me to write VB.NET apps using a different tool. But as it stands now, I’d probably have to pick up on Kylix, basically having to learn an entirely different language (Pascal or C++). That is NOT flexability .. that’s pretty much abandoning everything you know, and that is NOT a workable solution for a lot of people.
Finally, you made this comment, “…Oh, you can do all the things in Linux that you can do in Windows”. I’m sorry Darius, but it is true.
Ok, so you’re telling me that every piece of hardware that currently runs under Windows (and I’m talking about mp3 players, scanners, printers, digital cameras, drawing tablets, PDAs, and even down to that toy mouse my friend recently bought his daughter that interfaces with the computer) will work under Linux as well? And are you telling me that every single piece of software that has ever been written for Windows has a (functional) Linux equivalent? Even if the answer is yes to both questions, certainly you would admit that in a lot of cases, your options in Linux are severaly limited by comparison?
I agree with you that you don’t need Windows or Word to write letters, but I also think your belief that Most users check email, write documents, balance a checkbook, play Freecell, etc is a bit misleading. This does accurately describe most people, but from my experience, it’s only about 60-70% of what a ‘normal’ person does on their PC. The big question is, is Linux going to have problems with the other 20-30%, and from my person observation, the answer is yes. For example, my friend likes to create & print calenders with Winnie the Pooh characters all over them. How the hell do you do this in Linux? Unless Di$ney has licensed some company to create a software alternative for Linux, I highly doubt it is possible. I know, it seems like a really bad excuse to stick with Microsoft, but then again, it is one of her ‘killer apps’, and everybody certainly has their own killer apps.
Yes, I am completely aware that Windows can’t do everything Linux can, but I never made this claim either.
This this thread will soon pass into oblivion, you are more than welcome to email me to continue this discussion if you’d like
Iconoclast, I think you missed my point entirely and I fault myself for not making it clear.
Linux is desparately trying to get out of the developer/geek box and into the average user markets (home and office). I’ve used this analogy before but I think it makes sense: give me your keyboard for a day and let me scramble all the keys up (and their output) and give it back to you. I’m sure given enough time, you’ll be able to type fine with it. But why should you learn to type all over again? That’s wasted time — hours and hours of your life that are gone forever.
Similarly, windows users, who are the Linux target, are use to fast GUIs, install shields, drag-and-drop, click-activation, etc. I don’t think users are lazy or incompetent if they shy away from text menus, dependency-hell, hand-editing config files, etc. – they are just pragmatic. Linux is getting better at this stuff but only if you stay on the surface. Once you scratch that away, which every user does eventually (inadvertantly most of the time), you’re still stuck with tons of unnecessary complexity.
That complexity is fine for you and me. But I take no joy in dealing with an operating system that way and don’t expect everyone else to either. If you do, honestly, more power to you and I’m glad you like it. For the rest who just wanna get things done, it seems like a huge evolutionary step backwards.
Cheers.
Darius:
I’m not sure what your point is. I buy quality hardware that I know runs well under Linux (including drawing tablets, USB mass storage devices, digital cameras, scanners, etc.) because I want to run Linux. I like that is is very stable and has tons of development tools readily available. I like that I don’t have to install in every 6 months to keep it running at a decent pace.
If you want an OS to run all hardware, then use Windows. I don’t recall ever saying that Windows wasn’t an option. Linux serves a different purpose that Windows. It fits my needs. It may not fit yours. As I’ve said before, use what makes you happy. Just don’t tear down what makes me happy.
Paul:
I understand what you are saying about Linux’s complexity, but seriously, I don’t see much of it in Xandros (which is the distro we are talking about).
I don’t think Linux is as easy to configure as Windows can be (although Windows can be quite daunting to the average user too), but I do think, once configured, it is every bit as easy to use as Windows.
As these desktop centric distros progress, I think you will start seeing the refinement in Linux that you currently see in Windows. But, if you don’t that’s fine. You can still choose to use Windows, OS X, BeOS, or stop using your computer all together and go outside for some fresh air. That’s the beauty of choice.
I’m not sure what your point is … If you want an OS to run all hardware, then use Windows.
My point is that you say if I want an OS that can run all hardware, then I should use with Windows. You also say that Windows. On the other hand, you say (in a previous post) that Linux can do everything Windows can, which would natrually include the ability to run all hardware. So if Linux can do all things Windows can, then why would I need to stick with Windows to run all hardware?
I buy quality hardware that I know runs well under Linux (including drawing tablets, USB mass storage devices, digital cameras, scanners, etc.) because I want to run Linux. (Emphasis mine)
So what you’re saying is that any piece of hardware that does not run in Linux is not quality hardware? What about the devices that used to not work in Linux but now do? Were they simply pieces of crap until somebody wrote a Linux driver for them and then they became high quality?
Instead of tryng to make Linux look and feel like windows you might be better of just learning how to use a Unix-like system. Linux is the way to go. I just got a new IBM laptop and it came with XP pro. I tried it for a couple of days and hated it. Got Suse 8.1 on it now. Just dump the windows mindset and go for Linux. Tech support is available, but not the windows kind. Use the news groups it’s free. Read the How-to’s and learn about man and info. Most likely the information you are looking for is already installed on your system. You just need to learn how to find it. Start with man man from the command line. Do a search for the Linux document project. There is more info there then you need. While you’re at it make a donation to the free software foundation.
$2000+ for a Mac? This ain’t the ’90s anymore.
Try $999 for a brand new G4, ‘Combo’ drive, and 17″CRT (1280×960).
http://www.apple.com/emac
Beware: model update on Jan.7. Buy then and get better specs.
Instead of tryng to make Linux look and feel like windows you might be better of just learning how to use a Unix-like system .. Just dump the windows mindset and go for Linux.
You don’t seem to understand what I’m saying. There are some applications in the Win32 world with functionality that is currently NOT available on Linux at ALL. It’s not a question of having to ‘relearn’ things, but more like having to completely do without. Of course, if you don’t use any of these ‘specialty apps’ (or ‘specialty hardware’ for that matter), then you of course will not be affected. But for those of us that do use them, there is still very much a need for Windows (unfortunately).
I know that some people have ‘made the jump’ and had to sacrifice some functionality/luxuries along the way, I guess mainly because of their dislike of MS. But, IMHO, there is more freedom lost by ‘crossing over’ than there is gained, or at least there would be for me.