Home > Windows > Microsoft Unveils Windows XP Digital Media Edition Microsoft Unveils Windows XP Digital Media Edition Eugenia Loli 2002-12-17 Windows 88 Comments Microsoft will release a Plus expansion pack for Windows XP to enhance the digital media features in its desktop operating system. At the same time it will make available the final release of its Windows Media 9 software early next year. About The Author Eugenia Loli Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker. Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli 88 Comments 2002-12-17 1:25 pm Ok, so some people like XP. I for one don’t, and think it’s utter garbabe. but why would they release THIS, instead of more security, usability fixes!?!? Just proves that BeOS is/was ahead of it’s time. openBeOS will rule though. Soon. 2002-12-17 1:39 pm Chris, please be a bit more realistic. BeOS was never secure, I remember hackers were able to influtrate BeOS in no time… BeOS is a lot of things, but secure is not one of them. As for Windows, Microsoft has already said that they will be releasing security fixes for 2k/XP while .NET Server will be their most secure OS to date. They announced last February their innitiative for more security. Oh, and our subject here is the new XP edition. 2002-12-17 1:54 pm If a hacker want to hack a system, then system wont matter… I feel more safe with BeOS than with XP, last I checked I had over 400 infected files in XP. And yes, why dont I use a firewall/antivirus applications.. couse they make XP slow, and the built in Firewall.. that is a joke.. And they cost money. First of all BeOS is free, and its fast, and it runnes even better than XP with my hardware. And dont make me compare MultiMedia on XP compared to BeOS, its not fair =) Windows has the good commercial applications for pro Audio, but you can do PRO work with BeOS also. /Konrad 2002-12-17 1:56 pm I meant that, in regarding BeOS’s media concepts. Concepts. Microsoft is just now starting to realize that people like to play with media. BeOS has had mp3 encoding since 1998, built into the OS. 2002-12-17 1:58 pm And, I will point out that the security issue in BeOS was not even BeOS’s fault. It was a faulty library that Be Inc. used, that had an exploit for FTP. They released a patch/upgrade almost immediately, by M$ standards. That’s the only exploit I am aware of for BeOS. Yes, I understand that you can’t actually DO anything with BeOS at this point in terms of locking down a machine like you can with windoze, but the API was in place, and the system as a whole was far better thought out than windoze will -EVER- be. openBeOS will rule. 2002-12-17 2:00 pm OpenBeOS will rule ……Within time…. Simon maybe you should give us some more news on BeUnited projects… that can attract more users/developers. A status would be nice ( % done, daiary etc ). /Konrad 2002-12-17 2:04 pm >openBeOS will rule though. Soon. No. When released, we can say if it would rule or not. And when released, it will still have same problems as BeOS, lack of apps. BTW, I’m writting this from Phoenix on BeOS, and I use BeOS 99% on my PC at home. 2002-12-17 2:05 pm >First of all BeOS is free, and its fast, and it runnes even better than XP with my hardware. I remember you, Konrad, seeking hardware support for your laptops, just a week ago on the BeOS OSNews forum. >And dont make me compare MultiMedia on XP compared to BeOS, its not fair =) I agree. Have you ever tried to serious code for the Media Kit? I think not. >OpenBeOS will rule ……Within time…. I don’t like that future tense.. XP is here, today. OBOS will come, if it comes, IF it will be what it supposed to be. Again, please, let’s be realistic here. I like BeOS too, but moaning and bitching against Windows and putting hopes on vaporware or dead software, it is just not great either. 2002-12-17 2:14 pm Eugenia, I use 2 computers.. one is my laptop and the other is my workstation. Both of my computers work, and Linux has the same problem as BeOS with Static IP ( so its probably our gateway ). <Have you ever tried to serious code for the Media Kit? I think not. > Yes I have, and Iam working on a MultiAudio/recording application ala, Cubase ( much litghter though ). MultiMedia have been hard for me, and I dont think its BeOS MediaKit api, its just my expereience in programmin. ( soon 1 year, yeah ). If you intrested in knowing more.. just email me. OBOS or not, I use some of their applications in BeOS, and even 2 Kits =) I can agree with you that it will take time to replace BeOS with an alternative OS. I use XP on both my machines also, and the onlu reason for that is that I cant use OpenOffice in BeOS ( yet ). Eugenia dont get me wrong, I use XP becuase I have to, not becuase that I want. /Konrad 2002-12-17 2:17 pm The lack of the multiple users concept who have restricted file access is a pretty serious security issue IMO. The lack of any sort of serious security trackrecord is also a good reason to avoid it in productivity settings. Did the code get reviewed on security errors? Especially when you code in C or C++ it’s extremely easy to make these sorts of errors. (and operating systems generally are written in C/C++ for speed reasons) The only reason you felt secure using Beos, was because nobody was using it.. Not because it was *actually* secure. 2002-12-17 2:21 pm Well, I’ll pay $19.95 to see what this is all about. I feel like doing so, but will not pre-judge. But, it will be interesting to see if it meets Apple’s iApps quality and integration. Not only that though, the fact is that Sony’s own multimedia apps that come with VIAOS are apps they’ve worked on for a long time. So, it isn’t just Apple. The full blown XP Media Edition has gotten pretty good reviews, especially the HP media center computer. The only real criticism I’ve seen of it is that is doesn’t work nearly as well with TV as hoped. 2002-12-17 2:28 pm “I feel more safe with BeOS than with XP, last I checked I had over 400 infected files in XP. And yes, why dont I use a firewall/antivirus applications.. couse they make XP slow, and the built in Firewall.. that is a joke.. And they cost money.” Trend PC-Cillin or whatever its called is free…..most rounters have a built in firewall. I have never had infected files on my xp box. 2002-12-17 2:36 pm Anonymous! Thanks for the tip… /Konrad 2002-12-17 2:37 pm Your problems with XP are YOUR shortcomings not XP. There are plenty of lightweight cheap/inexpensive solutions to your problems. In the meantime you are allowing your system to be a nice breeding ground and repository for viruses. Thanks. 2002-12-17 3:06 pm To Anonymous, Trendmicro’s PC-cillin isn’t free, although there is a trial version. You were probably thinking of CA’s free InoculateIT Personal Edition, which has since been discontinued and replaced by eTrust EZ Antivirus 2002-12-17 3:10 pm “Trendmicro’s PC-cillin isn’t free, although there is a trial version. You were probably thinking of CA’s free InoculateIT Personal Edition, which has since been discontinued and replaced by eTrust EZ Antivirus” Your right…..I was thinking it was free because I got a copy of it with my ASUS Mobo. My bad…..still….its only 50 bucks…not to bad. Your could always go the old way of putting Nortons on and setting the system date back when getting the updates to by-pass the registration. :-)….but thats not honest. 😛 2002-12-17 3:11 pm The fact that there are viruses STILL present on any windoze platform is astounding. Perhaps Billy is secretly funding anti-virus companies to create viruses to keep the rotting ship afloat? 2002-12-17 3:21 pm Warning, this may sound, smell and looks like a troll… So if you don’t like them, stop reading here. Ok… so now Microsoft has iApps too, the only difference is that you have to pay an extra to use them. And, I bet that any Web based service that may come from these can’t be emulated setting up a simple WebDAV server. I don’t see this as a smart move from M$. They’re just admit that Apple has a nice set of applications on their OS. And they’re so nice that M$ had to provide something equivalent in their OS just to keep it up with MacOSX. I warned you, it’s a Troll. Sorry, but i couldn’t help myself. Oh, and please sorry my poor english! 2002-12-17 3:33 pm “The fact that there are viruses STILL present on any windoze platform is astounding. Perhaps Billy is secretly funding anti-virus companies to create viruses to keep the rotting ship afloat?” Get real you little troll….when you have the market share on the desktop as MS does (ie. outlook, IE…among other things) you are going to see lots of attacks……If any other OS had the same marketshare you would see the same thing with the alternative. Crawl back in your hole. 2002-12-17 3:35 pm Using Windoze when you state MS just shows your level of intelligence….people like you will make it impossible for any alternative to be the mainstream. 2002-12-17 3:41 pm So I was trolling… I prefer alternative operating systems. I do not like windoze. I choose to spell it that way, for my disdain of it. Got a problem with that? 2002-12-17 3:51 pm “Got a problem with that?” Yes…actually I do…what are u gonna do about it? Show respect for everyone here…..I think MS has it place as where linux/freebsd does as well. 2002-12-17 5:18 pm Okay, with Windows 95 Microsoft caught up with the Mac OS. OS X was a leap ahead of Windows. Now Microsoft released their own “iApps.” The Longhorn(?) screen shots look a bit like OS X. The next version of Windows will have a lot more eyecandy and a new graphics engine or something for it that will off load a lot of it to the graphics hardware, and Apple has Quartz. Will this ever end? 2002-12-17 5:31 pm Go for it people. This is the best looking desktop I’ve ever seen for *nix (including osX IMHO). I’ll just sit and drool until the first file posting. 2002-12-17 6:05 pm This product is like the one Microsoft released last year for Windows XP which I bought. I will buy the new one just for the Movie Maker 2 transitions. 2002-12-17 6:05 pm Plus Dancer, another enhancement to the media player, introduces several small animated characters that dance across a user’s screen with music being played. Boy, I sure can’t live without that feature…. from infoworld: http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/02/12/17/021217hnplus.xml?… 2002-12-17 6:09 pm I’m writing this on my XP machine(dell)and I have to say that I like my 400 megahurtz:) mac running OS X much better. XP still reminds me of win 95, thought back in the day I loved it. I will probably upgrade this pc, but I still like OS X much better. I have to try this BeOS everyone is geek over, I’ve seen the screen shots…looks great. cheers. 2002-12-17 6:26 pm I have taken a look at this and I am glad they are trying to take multimedia functions a little more seriously. XP users deserve more than they what they have gotten but at the same time I can not imagine buying some of this stuff. Paying money for a slideshow program and better media players? 2002-12-17 6:36 pm And never as good. Promise as good, and then under-deliver. This will go on forever apparently. Well, maybe I shouldn’t “pre-judge.” But the odds of version one of this MS stuff matching iApps that already have been refined and debugged is low to extremely low. And apple is periodically updating everything. New iTunes, iPhoto and iMovie are almost certainties in the next 6 months or less. Also, what’s going on is MS is having to meet Apple on its own battlefield – providing a set of integrated functions out of the box. This is directly contrary to the “old” model that favors MS – namely ISVs doing everthing. We know how MS “loves its developers.” They actually service them well (not consumers). As people being to look at boxes as providing a given set of functions (kinda like a car with AC, stereo, nav. system, etc.), I think this favors Apple big time. They only have to come out ahead (in this set-of-functions to set-of-functions comparison a small percentage of times and they can increase their share such that sales double or even triple. 2002-12-17 6:38 pm “””” Okay, with Windows 95 Microsoft caught up with the Mac OS. OS X was a leap ahead of Windows. Now Microsoft released their own “iApps.” The Longhorn(?) screen shots look a bit like OS X. The next version of Windows will have a lot more eyecandy and a new graphics engine or something for it that will off load a lot of it to the graphics hardware, and Apple has Quartz. Will this ever end? “”” It is not the eye-candy that makes OS X so special. It is what is underneath it. You get to control a complete BSD machine with the ease of use of Macos. I love Linux, but IMO Apple is showing the Linux community what they are missing. An easy to use desktop enviroment. And with fink http://fink.sourceforge.net/ you can even implement X-windows. 2002-12-17 6:52 pm I also have a problem, instead of listening to your lies and trolling, I would rather listen to something true or something that makes sense. In none of your posts so far you said something that is true. All of them is trolling, and fortunately there are people out there who corrects your trolls. You didn’t express your wish to have an alternative, you lied to bash Microsoft and you lied to boost your own choice. In your own terms you are worse than Microsoft in dirty tactics. 2002-12-17 6:53 pm Avast32 by ALWIL Software, free home use license … 2002-12-17 6:56 pm Im just soooo tired of hearing people whine about Windows XP. “Paying money for a slideshow program and better media players?” Yes, they, IMHO, have to! If they give the thing away they could get sued for trying to force Apple’s marketshare to decrease further and thereby using methods deemed illegal when you have a dominant position as MS does! Still the cost/performance ratio of WinXP + the Plus Pack + PC hardware is far higher than anything Apple have. Hint to Apple: lower your prices and port the shit to x86-64. To all those spelling MS with a $ sign and calling Windows; Windoze, Winblows etc. Any views/opinions you have about computers, OSes and software are to me null and void as you have shown that you cannot express those views in a civilized fasion that people above the age of 6 are supposed to possess. “Paying money for a slideshow program and better media players?” MS have already released a slideshow program with their Power Tools that are free to download. The Media Player is free and will not be in the Plus pack except maybe as a bonus so you don’t have to download it. But you will still be able to download it for free. Windows Media 9 is by most people regarded as superior in quality/size comparisons so don’t give me no crap about “inferior product”. I will not use it tho. Why? Cos I favor other formats for the simplicity reason. It is much simpler for me to use mp3 MPEG4 etc as I use Windows, Linux and *BSD at home on different computers. 2002-12-17 6:58 pm Brandon: Win95 far surpassed MacOS. In fact, MacOS was on the same level of functionality as a glorified Win 3.11 up until the release of OSX. The only thing ‘better’ about OSX is the eyecandy, which I, from a UI standpoint, don’t think is too great. 2002-12-17 7:22 pm You complain about people labeling windows as Windoze, Winblows, etc., saying it’s not a substantive comment. But then you just label anyone pointing out negative facts about XP as “whiners.” Fact is, Apple has had the iApps for years and just now MS is coming out with this new media package. Apple has had iMovie for years, and just now MS is coming out with Moviemaker 2 which can actually export an edited movie to tape (Moviemaker 1 was worthless since it couldn’t do this). So the simple fact is MS has been and is behind. Catching up. That’s substance, and it not debateable. You said it all about Windows Media 9. I don’t care how “superior” the compression is. It’s not an open format and therefore it’s worthless. Actually, it’s a threat to consumers. It’s designed to maintain a monopoly and extract monopoly profits from consumers. If that’s not “inferior” I don’t know what is. 2002-12-17 7:30 pm I just had this thought… all these people fighting over which OS is better than the other… It’s kind of like a bunch of crows fighting over a lump of dead rabit in the road. They think they’re fighting over something important but it’s still just a rotting corpse. Sugar coat or not. Granted, crows ARE dependent on the rotting corpses for survival, but that’s not part of my analogy… 2002-12-17 8:27 pm “It’s kind of like a bunch of crows fighting over a lump of dead rabit in the road.” Actually its more about getting rid of the little kids who can’t post anything that actually means something. 2002-12-17 8:40 pm “The only thing ‘better’ about OSX is the eyecandy, which I, from a UI standpoint, don’t think is too great.” HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I’ve only spent ~20 minutes with OS/X and I can honestly say that it’s interface is 1,000x better than ANY Windows OS. 2002-12-17 8:41 pm Chreo says: Still the cost/performance ratio of WinXP + the Plus Pack + PC hardware is far higher than anything Apple have. The he says in the same post: MS have already released a slideshow program with their Power Tools. The Media Player is free. That is my point. I think XP is far more stable than any else that MS has put out and it is the nicest in terms of looks and how it behaves from a UI point of view. I still like linux but that is my choice not necessarily a bust on MS. Still, making people pay for these Plus packs that ought to be updates to the system anyway is crock. Just as much as when Apple makes people pay full OS price for a stable OS X they should have shipped in the first place. OR when Redhat makes you pay for upgrades on Redhat Network past one machine (limits I can see but come on one box!) when their biggest competitor SuSE has no such limits. 2002-12-17 8:46 pm “Im just soooo tired of hearing people whine about Windows XP” That is what I said. I did not call them “whiners” in fact you by trying to put that in my mouth seem, at least to me, to think they are. If I knew they whined over other things as well I might label them as “whiners” but not just for complaining over Windows. “You said it all about Windows Media 9. I don’t care how “superior” the compression is. It’s not an open format and therefore it’s worthless. Actually, it’s a threat to consumers. It’s designed to maintain a monopoly and extract monopoly profits from consumers. If that’s not “inferior” I don’t know what is.” Fact, MPEG-4 is a standard NOT an Open Format. You have to separate between the two. An open format is one that anyone can implement freely in their products. MPEG-4 is an ISO standard but in order to use it in your products you (the developers) have to pay a fee. I don’t see how this in any way differs from Windows Media Format in any other sense that it is not an ISO standard. If you want to use WM you pay MS the fee. About catching up… let’s not even go there shall we not cos no matter what points you bring up there are other opinions about it. Let’s just say that MS have had a picture viewer ableit not an editor for years now. MS have had an Media Player for just as long. And the new MM2 surpasses the iMovie thingy in useful features. The reason MS can’t bundle things with the OS as Apple does is for the simple reason of monopoly thingy. Bundle this with the OS, get sued for illegal and unfair competition. I still wouldn’t use either Apples iApps or MS Media apps for a simple reason: there are free software that does the job a lot better! 2002-12-17 8:49 pm I agree that it should be free but I highly suspect that MS can’t bundle the new MovieMaker 2 because of anticompetition factors. I’d be most surprised if they aren’t included in Longhorn. 2002-12-17 8:54 pm Do you think anything posted here actually means anything? All I see day in and day out are the same old lame arguments, flames, attacks, glorifications and complaints. It’s all without content or substance. I’m tired of being any different. So I’ve become quite sarcastic. I still mean what I say, but no one ever cared what I had to say anyway. I know… stop posting then. 2002-12-17 9:03 pm quote: “I still wouldn’t use either Apples iApps or MS Media apps for a simple reason: there are free software that does the job a lot better!” Thats just it, Apple iApps are free whereas Windows Media apps are not. 2002-12-17 9:05 pm http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=2376 These posts make sense…..i dont understand why you can’t. Just because people post stupied comments means you should too? This bring me back to talking about all the little kids on here sometimes……you know the saying….if everyone was to jump off a cliff would you too?…guess so. I cant believe I am even replying to this. 2002-12-17 9:24 pm I find it quite amusing that I’ve elicited such a response, considering that most people here detest windoze as much as I do, and feel that alternatives are the order of the day. It’s time to move beyond windoze. It’s time to create real choice for the consumer. Microsoft is a detestful company, and I hope they hear me when I say, “Please sue me for libel and slander. I want you to hunt me down for saying that you, as a company, are scum of the earth.” Microsoft can die today, and I would laugh. Bill Gates could fall over dead, and I would be next in line to go to his funeral. Microsoft has done everything in their power to eliminate the competition whenever it senses a threat, and has been practising this technique for YEARS, yet, they manage to spin every controversy through use of the gigantic marketing department into a slightly more positive light. Enough of that. It’s time to wake up, and demand real choice. This “update” to their flagship product is nothing more then spin tactics. It’s a lame copy of the most excellent tools that Apple has put hard work into to do RIGHT. You want to know the Number One reason why BeOS died the way it did? Strong-arm tactics in the backroom in latenite sessions as Microsoft bullied their way to making the top FIVE hardware vendors in the world to cave in to their demands. Sick. And you call me a troll, and say I lie? Try remembering some history for a change. Microsoft can rot in hell. It’s time for a change. I personally throw out this challenge to ANYone. Contact Microsoft, tell them what I think, and see how far they get. I look forward to it. 2002-12-17 9:31 pm A loser is what you are…….Even though im not a big MS fan….I can say IBM did the same exact things in the past but now that they support linux nobody cares. I would also like to point out if Sun, Redhat, or anyone else had the money and market share MS does they would be doing the exact same thing. 2002-12-17 9:41 pm Can you prove that a company (for example) like Red Hat would do -exactly- the same thing as Microsoft? I doubt it. I seriously doubt that any company has ever done anything remotely as evil (yes, I use this word) as Microsoft. And now, here comes the part where every argument involes Hitler. Only one man is more evil. Adolf Hitler. But I digress. I’m willing to state my views here, on the record, with my full name, and ability to contact me. You (ameritech.net) remain anonymous. (well, not really. Nice dsl connection you yuppy. If I could find you, you think others can’t?) Microsoft has been found GUILTY of being a MONOPOLY. How much more proof do you need to be convinced that choice is good? Some people will never learn I guess. 2002-12-17 9:42 pm You say: “Fact, MPEG-4 is a standard NOT an Open Format. You have to separate between the two. An open format is one that anyone can implement freely in their products. . . . I don’t see how this in any way differs from Windows Media Format in any other sense that it is not an ISO standard. If you want to use WM you pay MS the fee.” Let’s see, the differences start with the fact that MPEG-4 is not controlled by a company with an OS and Office monopoly that has been found to violate the antitrust law. Also you say: “And the new MM2 surpasses the iMovie thingy in useful features.” How specifically? MM2 has started to get reviewed on the net and the overall sense I get is the program is still not as intuitive, it’s clumsier with those typical MS “Wizards” that are sign of bad design (if you make the program intuitive, you don’t need to be a Wizard to figure it out or have a MS “Wizard” figure it out for you. Also, let’s compare MM2 final to whatever is out then, which will be iMovie 3 most likely. Also you say: “I still wouldn’t use either Apples iApps or MS Media apps for a simple reason: there are free software that does the job a lot better!” Please name them. 2002-12-17 9:47 pm You are so wrong. There are plenty of MS fans on this site. Read any linux critique article on this site and you will Darius and Chreo and half dozen other folks who are very happy with Windows. I am not. But that is me. I like Unix. I work everyday with Unix and use linux for my desktop. BSD fans don’t flame me. Its a preference for god’s sake. Still, the site seems to be split fairly evenly between folks who like linux, BeOS will always have a place here right Eugenia, Mac OS X and Windows. In fact the only critical thing I can say about most of the discussions is they degenerate too quickly into a bunch of people having a great big pissing match over who has the neatest, coolest, most stable, prettiest OS with the most apps and the best multimedia. 2002-12-17 9:50 pm I guess anybody who read your comments would laugh a lot and pass it by but in case there is a person who took your comments seriously, let me clarify why they are totally worthless. There is no even single reasonable idea there. First of all on the issue whether Microsoft try to catch Macs or not. Today it is impossible for Apple to compete with Microsoft in any field. If Microsoft wants to do better you should know that they can, and they do. Microsoft hires the best people out there. Apple is not a match to Microsoft. You can’t even compare them. Given these, let me explain why MovieMaker came later a little. First of all you should understand that if you are making decisions on which product you should focus on, when to release the product, which features to include it with, Microsoft does base its decision so that Apple can not say we did it before. There are so many factors in it. For example how many number of PCs out there have USB support, or firewire support, how many number of people need it, the standards and so on. Apple controls its hardware so they should better be the first to support certain features. That’s what is expected. Microsoft on the other hand, has to support too many number of hardware which Apple can not support. In other words, there are many factors involved, and people who think simply whether a company came up with a particular software first or second are very simple minded and if they are managing a company, they will quickly bankrupt it. The only field Apple is really good is User Interface. As long as there are people out there who buys things because they look good, Apple will survive. Once Apple can not keep up with the innovations in the industry Apple will bankrupt. I don’t care how “superior” the compression is. It’s not an open format and therefore it’s worthless. Actually, it’s a threat to consumers. It’s designed to maintain a monopoly and extract monopoly profits from consumers. If that’s not “inferior” I don’t know what is. The most funny thing here is whether the format is open or not? Is Mpeg4 format open, yes. Can you use it because it is open, no. You have to pay Money. So what does it mean, whether it is open or not. Quicktime was never open. What does being open mean here? Obviously you learned something called “open format” somewhere in a site, but doesn’t have a single idea what does it mean, how it will change things and especially how come a patented open format is not a threat to consumers, but a closed format is a threat. You are simply bashing here using words randomly without any meaning, and it just shows your level of intelligence. Instead of your stupid worthless comments, why don’t you post something useful, reasonable. 2002-12-17 9:52 pm >>Microsoft has been found GUILTY of being a MONOPOLY.<< There’s nothing wrong with being a Monopoly, it’s not against the law. Hell, if I produced an OS I’d love for it to be on 95% of the desktops in the world. And I’m sure Red Hat would love to be a Monopoly, IBM would love to have OS/2 on 95% of the desktops, and every other OS manufacturer too. What’s bad is when you use your Monopoly status to stop others, to strongarm the OEM’s, give away for free what other must charge for. That’s what they were convicted of. Again, it’s not against the law to be a Monopoly. I find it sad to read posts like yours where you basically tell the world that from the moment you wake up in the morning until the moment you go to bed you think of nothing but how you hate Microsoft so much. To think that only Adolf Hitler is more evil than Bill Gates shows that you have a very narrow view of the world and really need to step away from the keyboard and go outside, experience life, kiss a girl, have a family, etc. There’s nothing wrong with loving computers and making it your hobby, but when you obsess over Microsoft and Bill Gates all day…well, you’re messed up in the head. 2002-12-17 9:53 pm On MPEG-4, I believe it’s not controlled by one company. it’s some kind of consortium in control. That’s a lot better than one company. What MS would like to do is their typical game plan – get everyone using WM9, force it on the world, so you have to use to listen to movies, music, other media. If you can’t appreciate why that’s a problem, you are hopeless. 2002-12-17 9:59 pm //I seriously doubt that any company has ever done anything remotely as evil (yes, I use this word) as Microsoft. Only one man is more evil. Adolf Hitler. // Go back to the history book. /Some people will never learn I guess. / That’s true. 2002-12-17 10:02 pm Sergio, You admit that “MovieMaker came later a little.” (actually MM2 is the first real competitor and it came a LOT later). Yes, you are correct a large part of the reason Macs are ahead on stuff like this is because Apple makes the hardware. MS was helpless in 1998 – there was no firewire or anything like it to bring the DV video into the system. So Apple was AHEAD because of its control of the hardware. That why windows is often BEHIND on things that take hardware and software. You say: “The most funny thing here is whether the format is open or not? Is Mpeg4 format open, yes. Can you use it because it is open, no. You have to pay Money. So what does it mean, whether it is open or not. Quicktime was never open. What does being open mean here? . . . You are simply bashing here using words randomly without any meaning, and it just shows your level of intelligence.” See my response to Chreo above. Basically, what I mean is that WM is controlled by one company (one with a bad record of abusing consumers) while MPEG4 is not controlled by one company, it’s a group or organization in control It is much better to have file formats, communication protocols (e.g., TCP/IP) that are governed by technical bodies and open consortium rather than by one company. This is so obvious. Do you really think I am wrong about that, Sergio? 2002-12-17 10:03 pm ” Win95 far surpassed MacOS. In fact, MacOS was on the same level of functionality as a glorified Win 3.11 up until the release of OSX.” ROFL CPUGuy, what color is the sky in the world you live in? 2002-12-17 10:05 pm “You (ameritech.net) remain anonymous. (well, not really. Nice dsl connection you yuppy. If I could find you, you think others can’t?)” Well considering my partial IP is in the heading of my post its no sup[rise that you can tell im on a DSL line…your so special….do you think your cool? See (IP: —.dsl.milwwi.ameritech.net)…your sooo talented…and anyways do you think people are scared because you know where they are….come get me asshole…im in milwaukee wisconsin….and yes I have an ameritech… DSL….even though I dont know why that makes a person a yuppy….considering your on a DSL line too. 2002-12-17 10:12 pm re:appleforever Are you seriously trolling here or what? There is no way to even give any logical response to what you say, because they are totally worthless, meaningless, made up stuff. There is no logic, no relation and no reasoning. Apple is a company which threatened to use DMCA against one of its own resellers. I think Apple is more evil than Microsoft. re:Chris Comparing Hitler with Bill Gates shows how evil one can be while hating Microsoft. It shows how far can somebody go in their lies, and it also sad to see how someone dare to downgrade the crimes of Hitler in order to serve their own goals. re:Johnathan I think most of the time the discussion doesn’t go the way you described. But it degenerates into a discussion between a bunch of people who make outrageous and false claims for a particular OS, and others who try to correct them. I didn’t see anybody here who claim this is the best OS ever type of stuff other than some few Mac zealots and Microsoft bashers. 2002-12-17 10:25 pm You admit that “MovieMaker came later a little Oh yeah, I “admit” it. You are right. You won. It came a little later. (one with a bad record of abusing consumers) If you want people to boycott companies with a bad record, why the hell you don’t boycott Apple. Apple is one of the worst companies when it comes to abusing consumers. Basically, what I mean is that WM is controlled by one company (one with a bad record of abusing consumers) while MPEG4 is not controlled by one company, it’s a group or organization in control It is much better to have file formats, communication protocols (e.g., TCP/IP) that are governed by technical bodies and open consortium rather than by one company. This is so obvious. Do you really think I am wrong about that, Sergio? No I don’t think you are wrong on that particular issue of having open standards for file formats. What you are wrong is that you only tell this fact for Microsoft products only and that makes your argument totally worthless, because you can’t say like if it comes from Microsoft, don’t use it because it is better to have open standards, but then when it comes from Apple, you change your mind and say nothing about it. I think that’s dangerous and will only serve to bankrupt Microsoft, and nothing else for the consumers. That’s why I don’t think your comments are meaningful. For you it is only whether Microsoft goes bankrupt or not. It is not the consumer, you only use that argument to be able to bankrupt Microsoft. I don’t think that you want consumers to win, otherwise you would also post similar comments for Apple, RealNetworks, Oracle and bunch of other companies. That’s the issue here. Also by bashing Microsoft, you serve for the competitors. Consumers do not win anything here. 2002-12-17 10:40 pm You say: “Apple is one of the worst companies when it comes to abusing consumers.” Apple is not the company making 85 percent profit margin on an OS and office apps. These are really yesterday’s tech. There are free alternatives available. MS is exacting hugely oversized profits because they are a monopoly and cracking it is difficult if not impossible. You say: No I don’t think you are wrong on that particular issue of having open standards for file formats. What you are wrong is that you only tell this fact for Microsoft products only and that makes your argument totally worthless, because you can’t say like if it comes from Microsoft, don’t use it because it is better to have open standards, but then when it comes from Apple, you change your mind and say nothing about it.” What closed apple formats are you talking about? Apple is doing everything it can to promote open file formats and communication protocols, because it has everything to gain in a world where these dominate. Apple is promoting MPEG4; Zero Config TCP/IP networking (Rendevous) based on an open and published standard Apple helped develop. MS is closed on WM9 and has not embraced Rendevous. Apple has to tread carefully on Office – but they probably are working on a new version of Appleworks that uses an XML based format like in Open Office (a rewrite is overdue and we just don’t know where Apple is headed on these types of files yet). iTunes and the iPod use mp3 for now, AAC in the future – again open versus MS closed. Another thing – iPhoto doesn’t try to change the format of your photos to anything proprietary – it keeps them as jpegs (open) or whatever. While you “import” photos into the program, you can freely export them as jpegs. You say: “I think that’s dangerous and will only serve to bankrupt Microsoft, and nothing else for the consumers. That’s why I don’t think your comments are meaningful. For you it is only whether Microsoft goes bankrupt or not.” No. Also, I don’t think MS will go bankrupt anytime soon, if ever. 2002-12-17 11:36 pm Simmons: I hate to tell you this, but that is the GOAL of EVERY single company in existance. Why you would think otherwise is beyond me. Well, it’s not, but if I said it, my post would probably get modded. Jay: Well let’s see, MacOS crashed just as much, it didn’t have things like PnP, it didn’t have pre-emptive multitasking, and the file explorer couldn’t even touch File Manager, let alone the enhancements Explorer made to it. Aitvo: Eyecandy is not usability. 2002-12-17 11:57 pm Great title, eh? Seriously, there is not much point in comparing these two people. They are in completely different realms. I think it is misguided to suggest that Bill Gates is even in the same category as Hitler. Bill Gates doesn’t come close in the level of violence against humanity; the things Hitler did and accomplished (not all accomplishments are good things) go far beyond that which Microsoft and Bill Gates have done. Organized violence and hate against human beings has no connection to today’s abuse of monopoly power in the computer industry. This is not to say that someone like Gates couldn’t become the next Hitler. With all that power and money, if he wanted to and continued to play the game he’s played so well up to now, why couldn’t he? Hell, Bush could become the next Hitler. Anyone could, given the power and opportunity. I don’t honestly believe that the state of our nation would be such that this would be prevented before things got out of hand. Chris, you’re a good guy and you have your heart in the right place. You get points with me because of knowing you in the BeOS community. If you’re anything like me, you’re so far beyond disgust for the situation in this industry that you are borderlining on losing self control (I know I am, look at all my posts as of late). I just think that there’s no logic to bringing Bill Gates and Adolf Hitler together into the same conversation. There’s just no comparison and it’s self defeating to try to make one. I find Gates, and what he and his company has accomplished, quite frightening. As a person and a businessman. He and his business partners have been extremely clever in positioning themselves to receive the benefit of many situations that others might have missed. This doesn’t win my admiration, though. Or, it can’t because of what they do with this luck and power. They’ve also clearly been found guilty of putting their own agendas ahead of the best interests of a great number of people (consumers, whatever). Being a monopoly isn’t illegal, but they operated theirs illegally and willfully and with quite a dangerous predatorial skill. Microsoft isn’t alone here, but they are probably the best example and the biggest target for “reform” of some kind. I am a very concerned citizen, but I do not know what can be done. So here I rant, like the rest of you. Hopefully constructively, on occasion. 2002-12-18 12:00 am Well let’s see, MacOS crashed just as much, it didn’t have things like PnP Actually, PnP wasn’t ever needed for Macs. There are a few things that Apple did right with their systems (lots of that is being phased out now) and this is one of them. PnP was an attempt to work around the issues of hardware installation on x86 and DOS/Windows. It was never a very good solution, but at least it eliminated jumpers! 2002-12-18 12:02 am No, but no eye candy is not usability either. 😉 Please humble me with your idea of usability. <G> 2002-12-18 1:43 am The argument of which is better is mute. Both have their good points and both have their bad points. The problem isn’t with companies like Microsoft/IBM and any wannabies it is with the consumer. It is the responsibility of the consumer to be informed about their purchases in a Capitalist society but many have their heads stuck up their A$$ and wouldn’t know what they are buying. These are the same people who have made Microsoft the dominant player on the desktop with OS’s and Office applications without any thought for the issue. “It looks pretty and it works in the shop, must be great. I have no idea as to how to use it or what functions the product has but they sure have great commercials so they must be good and everyone else seems to be using it.” This is the usual mentality behind most IT purchases by 95% of the populace. It is not to disimilar to HiFi, “oh look it has X,Y,Z buttons and pretty flashing lights with big speakers, it must be good”. The anology of Bill being likened to Hitler is steep but remember people, before Nazi party went on their killing sprees they actually did quite some good for Germany as a nation (period during early to mid 30’s). Before them Germany was rife with anarchy and starvation with blowout inflation and occupation of production and resources by the French. But no, Bill is not the same as Hitler in the killing of people sense but he does share some tendencies in the way Microsoft has played the game in becoming a monopoly and using it to ensure its continued dominance in the field of personal computing. Many lessons were learnt from the Nazi machine and they are applied on a regular basis in the US and around the World. Microsoft is no different in the software field to the Nazi’s in the 20’s and 30’s getting rid of their political opposition, similar tactics but at lest to my knowledge MS has not shed blood, just made the lives of many poeple frustrating and economically difficult. Anyway, if we really want a tyrant try looking beyond Germany’s history and at that of Russia/Cambodia/Many lovely nations in Africa/and even the French and English after WW1 who caused starvation on a massive scale in Austria in retaliation for WW1 then there is the potatoe famine in Ireland caused by the ENglish the century before. Fact is human history has not been very humain. Time for people to work together in supporting each other, opens standards and accountability and this applies to the software world as much as anything else in life. We make our reality via the choices we make. Be wise and considerate in those choices. End of Rant. Piers. 2002-12-18 2:05 am Since you blame all the problems on the consumers, let me ask this: How do consumers know what to buy? They go to the store to see what’s there and talk to salespeople. They watch TV and see commercials. They read magazine reviews. They talk to people who “already bought one” (these persons are often just as technically unaware). In all these cases, every bit of info consumers and potential customers get from all the “trusted” sources say the same: “Microsoft products are the best choice for all your computing needs.” Why? Well, what other products are there on the shelf? What other brands do the stores offer? What company advertizes their products on TV? What did the customer’s neighbor buy? Do the magazines ever have anything truely objective to say about those companies’ products that are paying the magazine publisher for advertizing every month? Clearly the consumers are getting an insincere message from the places they hope to get information. What more can consumers do? Read internet forums where people complain endlessly about Microsoft or fight for this OS over that OS? Don’t be so quick to dump the blame on the consumers. Despite popular belief and assumption, the consumers do NOT control the markets (at least not as much as we would like). The USA has long since exited the realm of “the free market” and “start your own sucess story.” The advertizing agencies, corporate and government mass sales deals and lobbiests control the markets. 2002-12-18 2:14 am Apple is not the company making 85 percent profit margin on an OS I think you are lying and you are knowingly lying about Microsoft. First of all, even 85% is questionable, you should have known that the report which mentions 85% was talking about a single product for a particular instance. That profit margin doesn’t apply to Windows XP on the retail stores. It is quite clear that, you are either working for Apple, or a person who hates Microsoft so much that he/she thinks it is moral to lie about the issues. The claim that 85% profit margin for the OS is obviously a lie. Another proof why you knowingly lie in the forum is that, you don’t mention the profit margins of the Apple. Does average 40% margin sounds ok to you, and this is only 40% on average. On some products it is higher. For hardware it is 25% higher than comparable systems. What closed apple formats are you talking about? Quicktime. Quicktime is controlled by Apple, no other company can control it. I hoped that it may worth to discuss with you but obviously you are a troll here or at least your comments worth is at the same level because of lack of your knowledge, logic, reasoning, just like Chris. Mp3, Jpeg? Are you kidding? Are you making jokes? I wish you are trolling, seriously. Microsoft products also work perfectly with these formats. So what’s your point? You seem to forget your point completely. You claim that open standards are the way to go. Mp3 is not completely open. There are patent free versions of these formats which are truly open, but they offer less value in terms of compression and other issues. So your logic requires to adopt these open standards but you don’t mention them. Instead your narrow look and knowledge causes you to only compare Microsoft and other stuff out there that you are aware of. Then you try to use popular words like “open” , “standards” and so on to defend your bashing. You seem to ignore the fact that Apple itself uses closed standards, software. Why not Apple open Aqua so that we can port it to Linux. What does open mean here? Why do you use Apple, instead of supporting the true open OS Linux. Your views are only for bashing Microsoft, they lack consistency, they don’t favor consumers and users. They favor Apple. You want to bash Microsoft not to protect users or consumers, but to make Apple richer. You didn’t demonstrate anything useful, meaningful so far. You didn’t answer many claims, instead repeatedly lied about the obvious facts (such as 85% profit margin). You are not trying to make anything better for consumers, you don’t care about consumers, their budgets, all you care is Apple’s profits and the destruction of Microsoft, because only then Apple can earn more money. Saying that Apple was and is a pro open standards company is one of the most outrageous lies out there. Apple is a company which uses its lawyers frequently to threaten people all over the place, including even using DMCA. 2002-12-18 2:19 am To say that all the nonsense and noise coming down on this site can be broken down between Microsoft bashers and Mac zealots is just silly. I have seen more than a few hardcore MS fans make some pretty outrageous claims. I also here them makes statements about Macs and Linux that are either just wrong or based on experiences from at least a few years ago. I think there is enough blame for the noise and the OS battles plaguing this site for all the zealots on all sides. Bill Gates and Hitler thread — STOP! Right now, the day that Gates enslaves a continent or kills over a million people then you can make the comparison. You can compare Stalin to Hitler in fact Stalin killed more people in total numbers. However, no matter how Gates abuses his monopoly he is no hitler. Compare MS to Standard Oil or Gates to Carnegie or Rockefeller. Don’t get hung up on their icon status both Carnegie and Rockefeller were first class mean business b*stards of their time. The comparison to Hitler is just inflamatory crap. 2002-12-18 2:47 am Either they have a problem with reviewing material necessary for informed purchasing or they are too illiterate. Niether would far fetched as the information in most casees is out there. No I realise it isn’t Free Market nirvana, far from it but one can make some very informed purchases by digging beneath the surface, beyond the superficial glossy brochures and television ads. I find most people just can’t be bothered and then they winge about their mistakes. At about this time I place up my hand and respond with ” Talk to the hand sista, cause the head ain’t listening!” (-; It all seems to be about choice and critical mass. One can choose alternatives but if the majority don’t then the market dumps on the few for the bad purchases of the many. It’s sad and as a result evolution in many aspects of life is slowed down and hampered. Just my observations and I welcome some civil discussion on the topic. Thanks. Piers 2002-12-18 2:53 am ***Godwin’s Law*** Godwin’s Law of Nazi Analogies: As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one. –Mike Godwin http://www.eff.org/Net_culture/Folklore/Humor/godwins.law Godwin’s Law doesn’t actually close down threads … there is a corollary which roughly states that the invocation of Nazi/Hitler reduces the information content of the thread to zero. http://cbbrowne.com/info/godwin.html Further, in addition to mention of Nazis or Hitler, the probability of one of the following phrases being used approaches one: Get over it, Grow up (or Get a clue), I feel sorry for you, You are blind. And not a single comment modded down, hmmmmmmmm. Mod me down! 2002-12-18 3:14 am CPUguy, I didn’t mean to be so over-the-top – I was being lighthearted. Window 3.11 did have a really good file manager. Of course, at the time at least, Apple was dedicated to not having something like that. As far as crashing, that seems to depend on what people were doing with their Macs, what applications they used, whether or not people used utilties like Norton Utilities regularly, etc. But, I really do believe that Mac OS 7.x was very usable, it may have even been the apex of pre-OS X Mac system software, before the bloat really began to soar. I remember when 7.5 came out and it was like a 8 or 9 floppy install – it seemed so huge. Boy, those were the days 2002-12-18 3:21 am I have seen more than a few hardcore MS fans I didn’t see any so far. I do follow the posts here. May be you are right for some other posts, but at least for this post you can’t claim that the nonsense is because of MS fans and MS bashers. By they way, there are not two sides. I am not an MS fan, but I don’t like MS bashing. So which side I am in? Unless you consider people who don’t bash and hate to bash MS for no reason as MS fans, I think the nonesense are pretty much due to people who like to bash MS. There is not much MS fans out there, and nobody wants to be fan of them. So claiming that there are as much MS zealots as there as MS bashers seem to me pretty silly. Even there are few MS zealots, they can’t cause nonsense this much. 2002-12-18 3:51 am Who was the MS fan in the this very thread that compared Mac OS 9 to Windows 3.11. Come on that is low. Even the most hardcore Redmond fan has to admit 3.11 was a growing experience more than a real attempt at a user OS. That is like saying that XP is just now reaching the quality of Redhat 5.2 because it is now very stable. It is not fair. Mac fans and Anti-MS folks in general have been going over the top as usual. I am just saying that there is enough blame to go around and I say in general not particularily referring to the thread only. Actually some of the BeOS guys have been even harsher than many of the usual linux suspects which a lot of them have not even posted this thread. It seems that the industry is converging on the multi-media thing again with the momentum of people wanting to burn cds, and get photos off of digital cameras and such. I like Apple’s iApps and it seems that Windows is moving toward converging the gap by not so much coming up with new ideas (MS already has a media player and a slideshow app and all that) but packaging it all up and re-selling it with a few frills. I think that kind of sucks. Still, how do you advertise the fact that you do multi-media like the other guy? Re-package all your multi-media and resell it back with extras while pumping a media hit in the PC mags. It has that evil genius kick to it that just works. I like the gstreamer multi-media backend for linux. I use rhythmbox which has progressed a great deal from the hollow clone of the iMusic app in OS X. Gstreamer is now the new back-end and a requirement for gnome-media. Which is good. I used the gst-player to look over the LOTR avi trailer. 2002-12-18 5:19 am Come on that is low ???? Jonathan, I think you are missing my point here and also your first point. You said that there are two sides which made the posts nonsense here, and I said that no it is mostly because of few MS bashers who are not even knowledgable enough to make a claim. I didn’t see much MS fans here. There maybe, but the point is not that there is none. The point is that, usually these type of thread take too many posts due to MS bashers. There is usually one side only, and usually who post in favor of MS are not MS fans. They try to show the fact that there is more than one point of view into the subject. Like appleforever says that MS is closed source, yet he doesn’t see the fact that Apple is also a closed source, for-profit company. He complains about MS profit margins with some lies, yet he doesn’t complain about Apple’s high profit margins. The person you are talking about is not the reason that we have 70 posts here. You see what I am trying to say. There are 4-5 posts from Chris, many posts are a reply to him. There are some few posts from appleforever and some posts are reply to him. And there are some others. Are you saying that this one person is the main reason why we have 70 posts here? Saying that there are two sides are a total suprise to me, cause there are no two sides here as you want to depict. There are not as many MS fans as there are MS bashers. 2002-12-18 7:33 am Personally I’ve never liked the “multimedia” products from MS, except for Media Player 6.4 (which is still my video player of choice). The builtin image viewer in XP feels thin compared to ACDSee. And who uses those slide show programs anyway?? I don’t use them. I don’t now _one_ person that uses them, and I don’t know one person that knows _one_ person that uses them. The only thing that might be fun to have is the jukebox. If it’s something other than just playing from a playlist that is. Nah. I’ll stay away from that. 2002-12-18 8:07 am apple zealots defend themselves after getting ripped off for spending so much money on such underpowered machine, microsoft have always been the competitive edge for desktop machines, compare prices for OS’s OS/2? UNIX’s etc bill kept prices down and his empire grew, even today his prices arent bad, its just that we have today free OS’s that are very mature, linux, freebsd, etc… (yeah okay okay beos to some extent too.. eh eugenia ) okay ms isnt the most honourable business out there, but either is apple, and they support the USE of Opensource software, but they dont really support the movement any more than MS does. how many times have we seen clones of aqua skins, for linux, and windows, that have to be discontinued because of lawsuits threatened by apple…. i support MS, though i am not a zealot, and i am more than happy to jump into my linux (gentoo) or macosx on my powerbook, but truth to it, most of my apps are for ms platform, and there is so much more to choose from, i was delighted with the realease of ut2003, great, i play it on my desktop which runs gentoo, along with rtcw, quake3, war3 etc, i use my dell i8200 the most running windows, its rock solid, also stability issues, mac users complain how unstable windows is, which is true when you use a $500 beige box made by a shit company, but spend the same ammount of money on a x86 platform as you would on an apple platform and you’ll have far better stability than you would with the apple, i dont support either company, i’m not a zealot/slave to either, i just use which suits my needs, though both ms and apple have questionable business tactics, one thing that bugs me is apple with regards to opensource, they take from the OS community so so much, but dont give so much back… if apple were pro opensource, why are they so proprietry that you cant even run there OS on anything but APPLE hardware, why cant i design my own machine and put what OS i want, with the x86 architecture, not only am i free to run any OS on the hardware of my choice, i can build my machine from scratch and compile everything on the system from scratch, i hate it how mac zealots use the term MS tax alot…. i have several friends who laugh at me at my choice to us ms based products over there “superior” macs, but if i pay a tax, they pay so much more, and they dont live in a free society either. to summerise nothing about apple is open, they suck. macosx sure is pretty but thats all, as far as microsoft goes, hey i use them because i have to, but i enjoy the experience, cause i spend more than the minumum to buy decent hardware not dodgy shit that would make any OS crash, i love gentoo,i love linux, but its uses for me are limited, i like to spend hours tweaking my system and getting it all working the way i like it, but sometimes i dont have the time, best regards, Mark Ritchie 2002-12-18 8:13 am shut up about security, ms is a big company it has many departments, they all specialise, security is doing *cough* its job and different divisions would be doing theres, there is no point focusing on just security, i think this addon pack here is great, innovative and a way to give people a chance to enhance there os that they use to make it more usable, functionable and fun. macosx was riddled with security problems, many fixed up by jaguar which is essentially just an upgrade/addon/expansion yes????? but also inovative and functional, so… stop complaining about ms security, we know it isnt good for it, but when it comes down to it, 1 door is as good as 400, because as 1 person, you can only use 1 at a time, there is exploits for every os, if someone wants in they get it, government computers, defence force computers, nothing is safe, everything is flawed, unless you have an admin who really knows what they’re doing you can get into linux, or even freebsd without too much trouble…. 2002-12-18 12:32 pm First… soz for not responding earlier. I’m on a different timezone as should be apparent by my DNS. appleforever: I is clear that you haven’t understood what I’ve written in my posts. Don’t know if this is because english is my second language (tho I speak and use it almost as much as my native). I love open formats. I use, for instance, OggVorbis (an open format, NOT a standard, see the difference?). This I stated earlier is because I use different platforms on my computers at home (FreeBSD on my server, Windows XP on my gaming machine, Linux on my workstation and on my mediabox that’s hooked up to my TV). Thus I use open formats that can be used on all of these platforms. Can WindowsMedia do that (well you can but not as easy as using open formats)? Can QuickTime be used there? No. QuickTime is a container format kind of like AVI and Apple holds a tight grip on it. Playback QuickTime on Linux/Unix… get the CrossOver plugin for a mere $24.95. How standard/open format friendly is Apple then? Hm let’s see. Can you build a PPC-box and run MacOS on it? No. Does Apple allow modifications to the Aqua GUI? (Apple actively tries to make life difficult for developers that tries to do this: http://arstechnica.com/reviews/02q3/macosx-10.2/macosx-10.2-5.html#… ) Is Darwin OpenSource a la GPL/BSD licence? No Let’s talk about catching up shall we. Let’s talk about SMP support in the OS, about protected memory. How late was Apple with those features that MS had in WinNT from day 1. Let’s talk about Word processing, spreadsheets. Oh geeze gotta restrain myself from not laughing about the AppleWorks shit you mentioned. Let’s talk about abusing customers. Now here is something Apple really excel at. Let’s check prices on memory modules. AppleStore: Apple Memory Module 256MB PC2100 DDR266 price $100 same product on Pricegrabber: 512MB DDR266 PC2100 $105.84… Just look at that will ya. Exact same specification only TWICE the size for a mere $6 extra. And Apple charges $200 (AppleStore) for a memory module of that size. Other hardware prices are just as bad. Remember this; Apple uses standard computer components to a very high degree and they do not have any higher quality requirements than HP or Dell does yet charges outrageous prices for their hardware. The LDC display on iMacs have been bashed for being of low quality for instance and the noise level on the new PowerMac Dual CPU boxes is untolerable even with PC-standards. Sure the design is worth a bit extra but not that much extra. k. That was a bit off topic and I apologize for that but you need to see the whole picture if you are going to nag about catching up/abusing customers etc. Now I do think Apple does some things right also (BSD subsystem, FireWire etc) but so does MS too (XML, SOAP, C#, Visual Studio, WinNT etc) and MS have, clearly, some flaws too. Let’s mention Outlook’s default settings, the IE-Windows bundling (which was illegal given MS dominant position on the market). Chris, comparing Gates to Hitler was a slander on the level of something I’d only expect from skinhead-racist and shows just how little you understand about how MS came to the position they have today and the questionable decisions other companies like Apple, Sun etc have taken. Your comments on other topics have, I’m sad to say, now become null and void to me. Bill Gates have donated roughly half his wealth to charity and for you then to … yuch, I wont even continue. I’m not pro MS or anti Apple cos I think they both have some good things and valid uses. I’m sorry to see a company as Apple having such a small marketshare but Apple have mostly themselves to blame for this and given the price on their machines I don’t see how this will change anytime soon. 2002-12-18 1:42 pm Bottom line, Apple is not making huge profits as a company. So how are they making too money? Please explain Second, Apple wants a world where there are open file formats and communication protocols are dominant. Obviously, that is way better for them. Because then you can be a minority player (Apple and Linux on the desktop) and still work with the rest of the world. MS is better off without these open formats and protocols for the same reason (minority players are screwed) – this all seems rather obvious. Sergio, Quicktime is based on MPEG4 which is open and not controlled by one company. Unlike WM9. Same with MP3, there are patents, but it’s not controlled by one company. Same with XML based file formats – better because not controlled by one company. 2002-12-18 2:02 pm You said that there are not as many MS proponents if you do not like the word fan as there are MS bashers. That is because they are only one-fourth of the average population of this site. There are BeOS, Mac OS, MS, and linux proponents on this site. I liked this site because on the critical linux articles the noise was at least 75% anti-linux and it is good get one’s views and ideas challenged with other people’s knowledge and experience. 2002-12-18 2:40 pm “Bottom line, Apple is not making huge profits as a company. So how are they making too money? Please explain” By charging almost twice the price for their hardware (given in my previous post) Apple is screwing their customers. They can do this because you’re hooked to their stuff. The fact that Apple, despite this, doesn’t make any huge profits just goes to show that company isn’t doing that well. “Quicktime is based on MPEG4 which is open and not controlled by one company. Unlike WM9. Same with MP3, there are patents, but it’s not controlled by one company. Same with XML based file formats – better because not controlled by one company.” Now we’re back to topic. QuickTime is in itself NOT an open format so Apple could’ve just as well chosen to licence MS WM9 codec and use it in QuickTime. If they had done this, all Apple-fans would’ve touted the “advanced features” and the “highest quality/compression ratio” and downplayed the fact that is is not an open standard by simply saying “QuickTime is a Mac-format first and now it has the best codec too”. MPEG-4 is NOT AN OPEN FORMAT it is an ISO STANDARD. An Open format is one that you can use free of charge, no strings attached, and make changes to it (this of course changes platform compatibility but that’s beside the point). This open format can also be a standard but that’s not a necessity (check Ogg Vorbis for ref.). A standard is something that have an open, common specification that works the same everywhere you implement that standard. The standard can sometimes be used at no cost but that is not what makes it a standard. MPEG-4 is a standard but it cannot be used free of charge. You also cannot change it because then it is not standards compliant any longer. Thus the only difference between MPEG-4 (besides their technical abilities) and WM9 is the fact that MPEG-4 is an ISO standard whereas WM9 is not. The fact that more companies took part in the MPEG-4 specification only added patents with fees that have to be paid. The fact that more companies took part in the MPEG-4 work didn’t help it as WM9 is more advanced technically. Both formats cost money for you to use. On Windows you pay for it when you buy Windows and Apple reclaim the fees by charging you money for the QT Pro stuff and for MacOS. If the MPEG-4 workgroup would decide to add a new patented feature ti MPEG-4 and call it MPEG-4Pro I’m betting a shitload of money on that you would not be able to get that upgrade for free. I much prefer open formats over standards. If the open format is a standard then that’s good but that’s a minor gripe to me. If MS would make WM9 an open standard I’d be more than happy to use it as it is more advanced than MPEG-4 (I wonder how many times I’ve said that now ) 2002-12-18 3:15 pm off topic – does Apple “overcharge” You seem to say apple has to cut their prices in half for them to be fair. It’s going to be hard to cut the price of the $999 iBook or eMac to $500 and make any profit. Also, the $2299 Powerbook, I don’t think $1150 is a profitable price for that product. Even the pro desktops, the cheapest is I think 1699 for a dual 867 (and you can save 400 if you buy a monitor). I don’t think Apple can get the price in half there either without losing money. Apples cost more for a variety of reason – but charging “too much” is not one of them. You can say apple’s R&D costs are higher or whatever. But then the question is, is the extra price worth it?, not is the price an “overcharge”? on topic – MPEG4 vs. WM9 I am not using the term “open” source any more. The issue is control by one company. MPEG-4 is not controlled by one company. WM 9 is. If WM 9 becomes dominant and, like Windows and Office “you have to have it because that’s what the whole world uses,” then MS will raise the price to above what a competitive price would be. That’s the situation we have with Office and Windows – MS’s corporate level bottom line profit on those products is an 85 percent margin. Sergio, I think you accused me of lying about the 85 percent. Please see this article: “For example, the company enjoyed a jaw-dropping 85 percent profit margin on $2.9 billion in revenues in its “Client” division, which includes all of the Windows operating System products. We all knew Windows was a cash cow, but 85 percent? That’s a lot of moo-lah.” http://money.cnn.com/2002/11/20/technology/techinvestor/techinvesto… It’s 2.4 billion in profit, on something for which free alternatives are available but you “have to use” the MS products because practically the whole world does. 2002-12-18 7:16 pm Sergio, Quicktime is based on MPEG4 which is open and not controlled by one company Either you don’t know anything about quicktime or you are really trolling. Quicktime is a technology which was around before Mpeg4. It is totally stupid to say that it is based on Mpeg4. Before Mpeg4 what was it based on? It now supports Mpeg4, it is not based on Mpeg4. If you don’t understand technology or operating systems don’t make foolish claims. Anybody here will laugh at your claim that Quicktime is based on Mpeg4 and it is not a closed standard. Regarding the 85% profit margin. Here is the fact, you don’t know how that site computed that 85%? No, you even didn’t check the SEC filing and checked whether it is really true or not. Here is the real address for you: http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/789019/000103221002001614/d1… Go there and tell me whether it is possible to say without any doubt whether Windows has 85% profit margin or not. You may not understand it because it may be complex for you, so you may be a follower and take what other sites as granted rather than learning the fact yourself. re:Chreo appleforever seems to be an apple zealot who even doesn’t understand the technology enough to explain his ideas. Because of the recent support of Mpeg4, he thinks that Quicktime is based on Mpeg4. 2002-12-18 7:25 pm You seem to say apple has to cut their prices in half for them to be fair. It’s going to be hard to cut the price of the $999 iBook or eMac to $500 and make any profit This was funny. I couldn’t resist to reply. Well of course I understood appleforever is either a troll (I hope he is), or he is really not so smart to understand simple things. Even a mac zealot can not be this much stupid. The guy talks about memory prices and appleforever concludes that every component’s price should be cut in half and goes on to say that apple can not cut the prices in half. Go somewherelse appleforever. You are a troll. 2002-12-18 8:10 pm Yes, those statements support what I say, in the Segments Note: 2002 Revenue Net Income Client $ 2,892 $2,482 Server Platforms 1,523 519 Information Worker 2,385 1,879 That $2,482 is in 1,000 millions, so its 2.4 billion profit like I said, or about 83 percent margin. Also, the notes say that Office profits are in Information Worker, so that’s another 1.879 billion, or 78 percent margin. 2002-12-18 8:22 pm On the Quicktime Player MPEG-4 File Format (.mp4) Since the QuickTime file format is at the foundation of MPEG-4, QuickTime 6 supports .mp4 files as first-class citizens. So with QuickTime 6, you can author professional-quality, ISO-compliant MPEG-4 audio and video files that can be played back not only by QuickTime 6, but by any other MPEG-4-compliant player. http://www.apple.com/quicktime/products/qt/ On Quicktime 6 Streaming Server: Now you can serve ISO-compliant hinted MPEG-4 files to any ISO-compliant MPEG-4 client, including any MPEG-4 enabled device that supports playback of MPEG-4 streams over IP. You can serve standard MP3 files using Icecast-compatible protocols over http. Build a playlist of MP3 files and serve them to MP3 clients such as iTunes, SoundJam, WinAmp, or QuickTime Player for a simulated live experience. While QuickTime Streaming Server is designed for Mac OS X Server, it’s also available as an open source server called Darwin Streaming Server. Versions are available for Linux, Solaris and Windows NT/2000. And because it’s an open source technology, Darwin Streaming Server can be ported to other platforms by modifying a few platform-specific source files. http://www.apple.com/quicktime/products/qtss/ QuickTime Broadcaster is Apple’s live encoding software that lets you produce professional-quality live events for online delivery—quickly, easily and affordably. QuickTime Broadcaster takes full advantage of QuickTime, the most powerful digital media technology on the Internet. The combination QuickTime Broadcaster, QuickTime Streaming Server 4 and QuickTime 6 provides the industry’s first end-to-end MPEG-4-based Internet broadcasting system, which allows you to reach not only the large and growing base of QuickTime Players, but also any ISO-compliant MPEG-4 player. http://www.apple.com/quicktime/products/broadcaster/ So you can make and serve MPEG-4 or MP3, and any client that can read those files can play them. Also, someone can write their own streaming server software and serve up MPEG-4 to Apple’s Player 2002-12-18 9:52 pm If you run any OS without a firewall and some AV, then you get what you deserve. Don’t dog the OS for your failure to do your homework. Try looking at KERIO and AVG for strong standalone gear for XP. If you don’t then 400 viruses are your own damn fault, not the OSes. As for Audio-I can’t get Cubase to run on BE, nor anything from propellerhead, sonic foundry, native instruments…case closed. 2002-12-19 6:06 am Just a question. I’m running windows xp with stylexp, objectdock, and a lot of skinning so that my comp looks like a mac desktop (the dock, sounds, icons, etc…) It’s pretty and everything, but I don’t really see where all this added functionality everyone mentions is. Can someone explain to me or refer to an article explaining why the GUI is so much better then windows? My only other comment is, you guys complain about Microsoft software other then the OS. What Windows user just have software from Microsoft installed? Other then the OS, there’s nothing I use by Microsoft. OpenOffice, Winamp, Flash, Quicktime, Mozilla, Divx, ACD, etc… With all the alternatives, you have the options. So complaining WMP and movie maker suck… it’s like, yeah, so what? Pick up something from Adobe, Ulead or Sonic Foundry. In this regard, I DO blame the consumers. I someone can’t be bothered to research prior to making a purchase, why is it anyone else’s fault but their own that they bought feces? 2002-12-19 8:34 am But really, appleforever, MPEG-4 is designed by different companies for a reason. And that is not to eliminate a dominant company, but rather to share the cost of R&D. If just say Apple designs MPEG-4 by themselves, it wouldn’t be have as good as it is now, if Apple spent the same amount of money on it. Microsoft is also part of the MPEG. IIRC, WMV9 is based on MPEG-4 (or 2, I’m not sure). Besides, between the two, I don’t see why I should support one over another. Both hand non-dsicrimitory royalty charges. So which would I choose? Currently neither mainly because I don’t make my own video, and when I do, I would decide which gives the best quality. As for Apple charges, Apple grossly overcharges for its desktops models, the eMac, iMac and especially the PowerMac. If I were to buy a desktop, which would be my next PC purchase, surely it won’t be a Mac unless things change. However for laptops, I would say they charge pretty good (only because of the battery life and other factors I use when I decide which laptop to buy). The reason behind this is that Apple suplies a niche. Because of that they can charge a premium for their products because there would be people buying it. It is like going to a high-class restaurant and complaining that they overcharge their food and services. While their food may taste worse than hawker food, but you are paying for their niche position. You are paying a premium. As for profitablity of Apple, their profitablity is much higher than other PC makers with the same amount of market. Guys, this is a economic downturn. Time when consumers think twice before buying something. Apple is doing remarkably well. If they were just a comodity provider, like PC makers, they probably won’t be profitable, unless they manage to get to the position of Dell. Not too many computer companies, with a exception of companies like IBM, Microsoft, Dell (notice they are all big with huge markets?), not too many are profitable. If I would to invest in a PC maker, I would place my money on either Dell or Apple. Or both. One thing for sure is that I would never buy a desktop Mac until the stop using PPC processors. Or lower their price considerably. Why? On my desktop, I do a lot of compiling, a growing amount of Photoshop work (having to do with my KDE and Fresco UI proposal projects). And I can do both on my PC better than any Mac, thank you very much. Besides, as for Microsoft price, I don’t think Microsoft charges too high for their products. Apple only charges $75 less for OS X, and they have less cost because they use a open source base instead of making one of their own. The reason for Microsoft high profit is their market share. They are able to distribute their R&D cost thinner, and therefore have a much larger profits margin than competitors. Do I think it is overprice? Maybe. I find Pro overpriced for the little it does over Home. But will I use it? Yes, because it is not all that overpriced compared to Macs, my only altenative (Photoshop isn’t available for Linux).