With the recent beta release of Microsoft Office 2003 out the door earlier this week, many customers got their first look at what Microsoft hopes will re-write the office productivity landscape with a new ecosystem of collaborative functionality based on XML (define). But will organizations have to buy into an entirely Microsoft architecture to tap it? That’s the contention of Gary Edwards, a Web app. design consultant and OpenOffice.org’s representative on the OASIS OpenOffice XML Format Committee.
Will Office 2003 Lead to Lock-in?
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Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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I’m glad to see they interviewed an objective person over this. I’d hate to see what a competitor to MS Office 2003 would have to say.
The OSS community will probably figure something out, sooner or later
.
Of course, SUN Microsystems might also… errr, call their lawyers for another attack.
‘Nuf said.
from what MS said, the formating (minus graphics) is reserved. so does that make filters for other competing products easy to impliment?….what is the catch?
So let me get this straight…Microsoft follows the XML standard to the letter (data in XML, format info in a style sheet) but they just don’t give you the style sheet. So your data is still available for export, but you don’t get the layout info. And why would you need to? Just print it out from Office…
But that kills parasite programs like OpenOffice. So Mr. Edward’s real complaint is that OpenOffice now becomes far less useful, because you’d have to re-manipulate each doc when you pull it into OO.
So Microsoft follows the standard and gets to put a major roadblock up for OO at the same time. Bill & Steve must be grinning ear to ear…
“Bill & Steve must be grinning ear to ear…”
While the poor corporate customers and home users will have to pay $399 per pop… There’s still a huge amount of users still on Office 97, Office 2000… It’ll be a while till they can get everyone on Office 2003.
But sheesh, what a setback… Only a minor one though, cause the OSS community will adapt!
But, I don’t really understand how it can kill OO.org? When, you write an essay and save it. Your essay will be print as xml (almost in text) file, correct? If it does, then I thought it would be easier for many stuff to use this like port to website, something use XML and etc. The OO.org can do whatever what they want to do with it by their own style sheet rather than reverse engine like normal doc. Or, I am getting the wrong picture here?
How is MS following the standard? By using the same format? They are using proprietary elements, which completely departs from the OO.org standard. I think the idea of a standard is more than just what the extension says.
will just like it has all along. Open Office will make a dent just in time for all the .Net stuff to require your machine to be online to actually do anything.
You still have time now. Don’t upgrade, consider open solutions and start learning alternatives.
I know that sounds cynical, but it really is the truth. Think about it for a moment. A company that big *needs* to grow. Since they have failed in every market besides the win32 / office one, where do you think the growth is going to come from. That’s right, new upgrade revenue.
Enter Office .net AKA software as a service…
Have fun guys, you are paying for it –might as well.
What Microsoft product doesn’t lead to lock-in?
Every single product that Microsoft offers, from Internet Explorer to Word to Excel to PowerPoint to .NET Server etc is designed to lock the customer in. Every single Microsoft product uses proprietary API’s, proprietary data formats, and is accessible only through very anti-customer and anti-open systems licensing.
“Yet Another Naive Developer Falls Victim To Microsoft Hypocrisy! News at 11!”
I get a little tingle of shock and awe whenever I see yet another naive and clueless developer fall victim to Microsoft’s doublethink. Everything Microsoft does is for Microsoft’s benefit, not the customer’s benefit. Why create any sort of open system when a closed or semi-closed system is so much better for Microsoft’s profits?
When looking at crime in Roman times, the motto was “who benefits?”. In today’s age, it is “follow the money”.
I hope enough people learn not to be Microsoft suckers before it is too late.
I know many attack Linux violently, and say that it will never exist on the desktop etc. But regardless of how much Linux is behind XP and Apple, the very existance of Linux is the only hope for the consumer. I am absolutely certain, that if Linux disappeared tomorrow, MSFT would get even more bold in screwing the customer who is helplessly dependent on their monopoly (Apple is just another screw-the-customer monopoly). So, even if Linux never comes close to MSFT in market share, it is important for Linux TO EXIST – it keeps MSFT in line _just a little_, because they know an alternative exists, however feeble.
Therefore I disagree with those who ridicule “Linux hype”. Sure, a lot of linux is hype – but thank god, because due to hype 2 things happen 1) more developers join linux projects making it come a little closer to being competitive to MSFT (I know, I know, still far away), and 2) it informs joe-sixpack that an alternative exists.
That is why, despite my great unhappiness at many silly things going on with linux, I’m a strong supporter of the movement – because I believe it is in the interest of consumers… which means you, and me, and consumers everywhere. I’m not saying linux is the best OS – there are probably some small ones that are much better (some say BeOS and its progeny etc.), but for better or worse linux has the momentum for now – don’t shoot it down. I have bought many distros CDs not just because I like exploring OSes, but because I want to support linux development – I wish I had enough money to sponsor some developers
C’mon people, if we all contribute (and I don’t mean just money), I’m sure we can make a difference!
Will Office 2003 Lead to Lock-in?
Answer: Off course it will !!
After OO got some filtering on .doc, what would you expect from Microsoft ?
But the adoption of XML (non-)standard will also allow some new programming features to be introced in Office 2003.
Who knows ?? (Sorry for the bolded comments).
I am betting much on K Word than on OO !
C’mon people, if we all contribute (and I don’t mean just money), I’m sure we can make a difference!
I’m not sure I agree with this mentality of “Well, yeah .. Linux kinda sucks, but at least it’s not Microsoft, right? So let’s put all of our weight behind it!”
I have to admit that outside of tinkering/learning about OS’s, I really don’t like Linux as a usable desktop system, and I have a hard time supporting ‘the cause’ with the only reason being because maybe (and that’s a big maybe) it’s supposed to somehow keep Microsoft in line. And even if it does, I’m not going to pay money to keep a criminal organization from being more criminal – that’s like giving the school bully your lunch money to keep him from beating the shit out of you every day.
Well, I recognize the REALITY that nothing is perfect – so if you are waiting for the perfect OS to support, you’ll wait forever and a day. I recognize linux faults, but its the best we have for now – so rather than point and laugh, why not try to make it BETTER, so that many of those flaws are eliminated? I guess when some people see a house on fire, criticize the wooden structure, while others try to put out the fire first, then deal with the structure. I just think we should do something before it is too late. If that makes me naive, so be it, but I’d rather do something than nothing – and sometimes it is good to think of the benefit of others not just yourself, but to each his/her own. Good luck.
If they are using real XML what’s stopping OO.org from modding their DTD & schema to work inside Off2k3? 75% of users only use win 2k/xp features cause they’re new and shiny…most only cause IT headaches anyway. While you’re at it write NFS drivers for windows. Get on top and go for their balls! Take the battle to the server & database Linux strong points! All without alienating the windows users!
#1 agenda. Create a program, group of programs, etc.. that will allow sys admins to manage docs better. The dirty little secret of the corp world is document management. MS is the only company that makes tools to manage “random” user-created office files [i.e. find all the files in everyone’s stash and make some sense of them–even when they don’t follow policy]. That’s their lunch. They allow users to be really lazy, do whatever they want to–to the detriment of IT everywhere as they have to buy tools to straighten it all out. I haven’t seen one company that truly uses MS software the way it’s meant to be used–users always cheat the system! MS just deals with it. It’s time for some true integration in Linux! Linux has tools to force users to follow the rules without even telling them they are. The pieces all exist. They just aren’t put together and packaged correctly!
Start with the standard Apache/MySQL/php/perl/? web services. Throw in whatever plugin for XML. Mix in a little CVS, Eclipse, Evolution. Add OpenOffice.org + Mozilla. You’ll just have created a document management system [CVS & eclipse for management] retreivable by everyone [mozilla & evolution for internet viewing and email] built on a standard tried-‘n-true Linux backbone. And of course managed by Unix standards–work it into everything so users can’t break the rules! You have more (and cheaper) control.
Pieces missing: MySql handles for XML & XSTL & some management schema for Eclipse. OOorg viewer for Mozilla/Evolution. Make sure Evoultion can work from inside Mozilla for mobile mail. Tweak the best web management apps to work with eclipse/mozilla.
The big problem in IT is managing documents. knowing what the guy next to you was doing before they “freed” him. Computers are tools. Letters, faxes, emails, are all things a company needs to survive! I only have 20 office people and they can’t communicate, I can’t imaging 1000’s. The only choice is for IT to take all the control back. To do it without upper management knowing you did it is the catch.
Just for kicks configure it pre-setup under Knoppix 3.2 for true plug ‘n play enjoyment! Buy hardware, plug in, 15 minutes setup, enjoy! don’t even waste time HDD installing [i guess you could mirror to a “swap” file for simplicity] just run from the CD for maximum protection & stability. Release it to every screwdriver shop you can find and see just how many takers you get. I bet it could beat Office to market too!
None of the programs are neccesarily sacred, they’re just convienently ready. Honestly, what would a plan like that take to implement? The licenses are all reletively compatible, the code mostly open [but no big changes needed]. Are egos in the way? Again, if your favorite’s not there, work with the flow then add your’s back in! No one will stop you! You could probably replace every program with something else. OSS has to put something on the table before MS for once!
“All living souls welcome whatsoever they are ready to cope with; all else they ignore, or pronounce to be monstrous and wrong, or deny to be possible.”
— George Santayana
There are many who are not ready for the Linux desktop. Give it time. People choose their destiny at their own pace.
Those who are able to cope with a Linux desktop are working diligently making it better every day. The rate of evolution on Linux far exceeds that of any other platform. And it is true evolution, in a large environment, not corporate market-making stuff that most people don’t want.
It’s a constant battle to keep something out of the bankers’ control. I’m grateful that Linux exists and that it gives humanity a chance at graceful living. The Microsoft and Mac worlds are about to descend into DRM hell and there is no freedom to be found there.
I like linux, and have used it for many years in one way or another. However recently when I had a lovely Gentoo laptop working (everything just right!!), I needed two apps that run on windows, one VB app given to me with a precompiled dll and no source/datasheet, and another FPGA tool. Now I didn’t have a choice but to install windows because my work relied upon it. I thought to myself why should I piss about with dual booting when windows does everything for me. So here I am, back on MS. It works and now so can I! I really can’t ask for more. Some of us have to work.
Now you see the lock in isn’t becasue of MS, its because certain things work on certain OS’s – lock in is the same with all OS’s not just this on (just ask an Emagic Logic Audio user, or a Cadence Designer). Hell, if you use a Sun you have to buy a PC card if you want to run office/outlook/exchange.
My 2p.
http://www.idg.net/ic_1188049_9676_1-5123.html
A small German institute has become one of the Interior Ministry’s first agencies to implement Linux on the desktop, as the government pushes ahead with its ambitious plans to introduce open-source software in the public sector.
You see a few flowers here and there, but hike a little bit up into the mountains and you will see valleys full of wildflowers.
In 10 years Microsoft Windows will be de minimus cost and open source as will Microsoft Office. Microsoft will no longer matter as a company. Their game is just about over as the world decides they want freedom instead of tyranny.
Face it MS uses propietary formats which lock-in customers to their products becuase they are afraid of competition. What! MS afraid of competition ! surely you must jest !
Think about it if MS used open standards for information exchange(ie. not just file formats) users could use differnt apps on differnt OS’s on different hardware and everything would just work-plain and simple. Then competition could occur- which app/OS/hardware combo present the most desired UI for content creation-if MS products are so good they should be able to convince people to use there software without having to create a lock-in situation. Some people dislike OpenOffices’ UI-finding it difficult or cumbersome. Some people like Abiword-lightweight, simple, clutter-free. Some people like KWord due to its integration with other KOffice apps and the KDE system as a whole. Some prefer WordPerfect. Some people prefer Gobe. Some hate Microsofts attempts at “artificial intelligence” which invariably is artifical and virtually never intelligent.
The point is if we have open standards as regards file format all of these different apps and thier different underlying OS/hardware platforms can seamlessly work together-and at this point real competition between these can start to appear(where there is no common denominator there can be no competition for there is no basis for comparison without it)-some apps will have, for some users, the best UI, the best feature set, the best usability, the finest aesthetics etc. IF MS trully believed in and were confident in the superiority of their applications they would not hesitate to embrace open standards-for users would then have actual choice-IF MS made the best UI, offered the best set of features, offered the finest aethetics, had the highest degree of usability-people would flock to there applications. Right now an ever increasing number of people are starting to recvolt against this lock-in situation-for to use MS software one must either use a Windows and x86 hardware or one must use a Macintosh.
Linux users can only run a partial implementation of outdated MS Office software via wine- which is anything but an optimal solution- and wine only works on a x86 platform. MS is so narrow-minded and short-sighted one often wonders if they even have a clue- If they marketed a version of MS Office which ran on Linux, perhaps even providing mulitple binaries for the various differnt Linux hardware platforms, they could sell tons of their software-and of course they make their money with their Office software not with the OS. Sure the Linux market is now quite small, at least on the desktop, where Office software is most important, but this is changing and it is likely that virtually all school/university/government/military computers in Europe will be using primarily linux software within the next 5 years-and that is a huge market.
But no MS does not want to see the righting on the wall- or perhaps it has and this is the reason why they stick to their propietary formats, afraid that if they were actually to try and compete on a fair playing field that they might just loose. But the real looser in this situation are the users. MS can maintain its monopoly through the unconscious mobbing behavior of the masses of windows/MS Office users who through peer pressure force themselves and their peers to adhere to “standards” which only MS profits from. The MS lock-in phenomena utilizes MS OS/Office sotware users to implement there lock-in strategy for them- “hey I just emailed you the latest estimates for the 4th quarter”- “why can’t I open the file-you did use Excel didn’t you”……
Does this really surprise anybody? Every single microsoft product leads to lock-in. Microsoft has never, ever used an open standard without trying to embrace and extend it. We are quite fortunate that they did not yet embrace and extend TCP/IP, but they will certainly try in the future.
stopdabombing: You are thinking the way many idealist/geeks think. I’ve got news for you: Yes, there is no perfect platform. But nobody non-geekish or have absolutely no political motive (the average Joe… and Darius) wants to jump platform over some percieved acts that would be committed in the future.
If in the future they find it hard to live with Microsoft new rules – then they would switch. Nobody switches to something less better in many cases just because some paranoid geek wrote a (suprisingly) objective article quoting an *COMPETITOR*. But just say OpenOffice.org had some features that people like and want, was faster than Office, looks better than Office… maybe they would switch.
Kword is not cross-platform. You can not introduce it to MS customers who run XP. OO is the real hope because you can start by giving them a taste of Open source without them having to leave the environment they are comfortable in. Then you can tell them that they can use OO in Linux, then migrate them over.
Kword doesn’t let you do that. This is why I am happy when I see efforts like OO and Abiword. Wish Gnumeric would come to Windows though.
>I am betting much on K Word than on OO !
But K word sux more than OO does.
Someone can tell me how to add “proprietary” extensions to XML? As far as I can tell, all saved Word XML documents here are cleartext, no base64 blocks except for the data of inserted images. So I don’t see what’s the fuzz is all about! And yes, I’m a betatester at MS.
Same applies also to Excel and InfoPath XML output.
Of course you can CHOOSE to save in standard XML just like you could CHOOSE to save in rtf. The default will be Microsofts non-standard crap. Nothing has changed and nothing will til gutless users decide enough is enough and tell Microsoft to FOAD.
Like every version of Microsoft Office hasn’t led its users into lock-in?
While KWord has way less features than OpenOffice.org (although adding new ones faster than OOo), I must say I much prefer KWord. The only caveat besides the lack of features is the lack of good Office/WordPerfect/RTF export filters (frustrating like hell for me). On the ground of features, for features that I actually use in OOo, the important ones are available in KWord (of course both don’t have all the features I use in Office).
Besides, KWord is many times faster, takes far less memory, looks much better (even more so when KOffice gets their Crystal icons) and overall perform better..
Microsoft is a business. Let me repeat that: business. Their first responsibility is to their shareholders, it’s just impolitic to say something like that in these times. What sane company would commit suicide by making their cash cow irrelevant?
Microsoft is waaay too smart to do something like that.
And except in the open source crowd and among Microsoft’s few competitors in the “office software” arena, nobody really cares. Try this experiment. Go to your average office worker and ask the following questions:
1. Would you mind using software other than Office to do the same tasks?
2. Do you care that you’re “locked in” to Office, which “locks you in” to Windows (or the Mac)?
When I asked question number (1) to one of our employees, she actually got a little nervous that she might have to give up Excel, which she’s made quite an investment in learning. As for number (2), to sum it up: She doesn’t give a flying fuck about that. Just let her get her work done and she’s happy.
Now, I realize that question number (2) is probably more appropriate to ask the CEO, CFO, or CTO. In most cases, they don’t care either, because if they did, they’d do something about it. In fact, many CTOs will cite numerous reasons why they prefer to stick with Office and Windows.
Kword doesn’t let you do that. This is why I am happy when I see efforts like OO and Abiword. Wish Gnumeric would come to Windows though.
But K word sux more than OO does.
For me OO is worst than kword at the way both do things. kword has a nice page layout philosophy that is not, even remotely, present in OO (you could use text boxes, though). This will give a head start in the near future to kword on Unix/Linux word processing.
Windows doesn’t really need kword, 90% of windows users would had a hard time to adapt to page layout philosophy !
🙂
“And except in the open source crowd and among Microsoft’s few competitors in the “office software” arena, nobody really cares. Try this experiment. Go to your average office worker and ask the following questions:
1. Would you mind using software other than Office to do the same tasks?
2. Do you care that you’re “locked in” to Office, which “locks you in” to Windows (or the Mac)? ”
Yet in spite of all the “logic” being thrown at the problem. People are still converting, or thinking of converting over to alternative solutions, be it an entire converstion (OS), or simply an application changeover (OO). A wise individual would ask themselves why their world view doesn’t fit reality, instead of trying to fit reality to their world view. One can always come up with reasons that start with words like “couldn’t”,”shouldn’t”,”can’t”,”will not”, and most pre-conversion stories of companies that made the change, started out that way. In these economicly hard times, more and more will ask the hard questions, and find that the “hard” part isn’t were they thought it was.
Well, I recognize the REALITY that nothing is perfect – so if you are waiting for the perfect OS to support, you’ll wait forever and a day.
Did I say I was waiting for the perfect OS? Basically, what I am waiting for is something that is BETTER than what I’m already using. And considering that Windows is FAR from perfect, I’d say this is an acheivable goal. The hardest part is coming up with functional equivalents to the 40-50+ apps I currently have installed. (Everything from map software to softsynths). So, let’s see – Windows currently provides me with everything I need in the application department, is fast, stable, and secure (with the proper tweaking). Hmmm, and I’m going to be locked into this? So where exactly is the problem here?
Do I consider Microsoft to be evil? Yes, I suppose in the sense that they just do what Corporations do, and that is basically everything they can to fuck their competitors and consumers at the same time, but this is just the nature of buisness and Microsoft is no different than anyone else – they’re just in a position where they can get away with more, and so they do. Don’t think Redhat or Sun would do the EXACT same thing if they were in MS’s position? HA!!!
And if you don’t like the above senario, then do something about Corporate America and you will automatically do away with Microsoft (and the rest of their ilk) by default.
And do think about this – if Linux ever does get to the point where it reachers over 20% of the desktop market, it’ll be little more at that point than Windows in a differnt suit. Hell, just look at distros like Xandros or Lindows – it’s already becoming stupified. So, it’s either be locked in by Windows or be locked in by it’s successor (rather it be Linux, SunOS, AolOS, RedhatOS, AdobeOS, or whatever) – I think I will just stay where I am.
First, I’m not against corporations and business, I’m not a communist, because communism means LACK of freedom. And what I support is freedom and choice. What I don’t support is ILLEGAL business practices. Even the U.S. law does not forbid monopolies – it forbids ILLEGAL monopolies. My problem with MSFT is not that they are successful, my problem is that they achieved a lot of their success by ILLEGAL means (proven formally in court). Same with Sun or Apple – or as you put it, RHAT, Xandros, Lindows, even though that’s not the same situation – I’m fine with them as long as they don’t LIMIT competition ILLEGALY.
Note, my position wrt GNOME and KDE – I don’t mind if KDE wins by being better (or more popular with users) as long as KDE did it by having won fair and square through a better product – it would be sad to see GNOME die, but I’d accept it. What I would NOT accept is if KDE had a sucky product and they went ahead and illegally sabotaged GNOME to win. See the difference?
So, I wish MSFT the best – as long as they don’t ILLEGALY destroy competition and lock consumers in as a result.
You sit there and say: well, there is nothing better than Windows – did you think why? Maybe because MSFT has for 20 years done everything it can, often ILLEGALLY to destroy any better alternative. You support that? Seems it is exactly against what you want – a better product. So, a business illegally destroys better alternatives and you support them “because there are no better alternatives”.
Wake up. Quit being so _extremely_ selfish. Yes, I know linux is behind XP – far behind, especially apps. So, it would be a hardship to switch – for me too, because there is software I use in my work that doesn’t exist for linux (or rather is extremely inadequate in linux). But I’m willing to sacrifice in order not to support the bully MSFT. You have to somehow break the cycle – and yes, it demands sacrifice, unfortunately. Your attitude is “FOAD”. You know, ultimately everybody, all consumers benefit if there is competition (basic capitalism – LEGAL business, Adam Smith, all that) – and many of us are willing to sacrifice FOR YOUR SAKE AS WELL. Now, some are not willing, they just sit back and say: “I’ll wait until you deliver to me on a platter something better than Windows, and I won’t lift a finger to help you”. Of course, there are even more lovely fellows. The kind, who not only won’t lift a finger to help, but who actually kick those try turn the situation around. Funny you don’t reserve your wrath against the strong like MSFT who denies you choices and leaves you with as even you say “not perfect” Windows. No, you prefer to violently attack the weaker linux movement – yep, kick the weaker. They are trying to help the consumer – here’s another kick. Yeah, wonderful. Have you noticed that in most of your posts you go out of your way to attack linux? Hey, I got news for you: it is easy to attack linux for its faults are well-known, but it is a young struggling movement that is designed to help everyone. Very nice of you to not make any contribution, but rather viciously attack. Great. I take a different attitude – I try to contribute whatever way I can, whether a piece of code, or a few bucks, or turning a few windows users to linux, or helping a newbie. And so do thousands around the world. And you, Darius? When you sit by yourself, without having to defend yourself from anyone but your conscience, what do you think to yourself? Are you happy after you just violently attacked the linux cause? Do you think “job well done”? You don’t have to answer me – just stop and think, and answer it for yourself. Some only think about themselves – and I think it ends up in sadness in the long run. Good luck, and I wish you the best.
Before I begin, I wanted to say that I’m a little intoxicated at the moment, so I apologize in advance for any huge typos or incoherent thoughts
What I don’t support is ILLEGAL business practices.
You mean like denying consumers right to fair use of the products they buy? Which reminds me, how many CDs do you currently own? If you’re going to get idealistic, why not go all the way?
You sit there and say: well, there is nothing better than Windows – did you think why? Maybe because MSFT has for 20 years done everything it can, often ILLEGALLY to destroy any better alternative.
Uhh, yeah … as I’ve already explained, they’re a corporation and this is what corporations do. Of course, most of them don’t do it illegally because they can’t get away with it like MS can, but it still doesn’t change the fact that they wouldn’t do something illegal if given the opportunity. If the corporate scandals of 2002 didn’t teach you this lesson, I don’t know what will.
So, it would be a hardship to switch – for me too, because there is software I use in my work that doesn’t exist for linux (or rather is extremely inadequate in linux). But I’m willing to sacrifice in order not to support the bully MSFT.
So, here’s the question that nobody (even the most hardcore zealot) has been able to answer – you understand that there’s software in Windows that’s severely lacking or just flat out doesn’t exist in Linux. So, if the software isn’t there, then what the hell am I supposed to switch to? If I were to switch tomorrow, I’d lose access to about 50% of the apps I use. This is especially important for people who need these apps to do their jobs. I mean, idealogy is nice and all, but it doesn’t put food on the table.
You have to somehow break the cycle – and yes, it demands sacrifice, unfortunately.
Actually, I don’t have to do a damn thing. You’re the one with the political agenda here.
You know, ultimately everybody, all consumers benefit if there is competition (basic capitalism – LEGAL business, Adam Smith, all that)
Actually, in the case of operating systems, I don’t think this is the case – I like the fact that there is only one mainstream one. I mean, sure .. prices are higher and innovaction is slower, but imagine if there were 3-4 OS’s on the market, all with apps you wanted to use that weren’t supported on the others. Do you really want to have to set up a tripple or quadrupal (sp) boot system? And this doesn’t even account for the hardware – new killer graphics card comes out on the market and is only supported in 3 out of the 4 OS’s on the market, and wouldn’t it just suck that the one OS you use is the one not supported? Tradtionally, AFAIK, there have never been more than one or two operating systems to choose from on any one platform. I mean, when you buy a Mac, how many different operating systems can you get pre-installed?
You might say that this wouldn’t be the case if there were open standards, but when it comes to corporations, they don’t play with open standards (if they did, then why isn’t Java open source), so as I said before, you have to do something about Coporate America to solve this problem. Making MS go away doesn’t fix a thing – it’ll just put some other corporation in charge, with the same agenda as Microsoft.
Now, some are not willing, they just sit back and say: “I’ll wait until you deliver to me on a platter something better than Windows
That’s because I am currently happy with Windows as a desktop OS. Sure, it’s not perfect, but it doesn’t have enough imperfections to make me want switch to something else, especially when that something is becoming more of a Windows clone by the minute.
nd many of us are willing to sacrifice FOR YOUR SAKE AS WELL
If you wanted to do something for me, you could work to install some kind of global Internet filter so that every time one of these jerkoffs busts out with “Micro$haft” or “Winblowz”, they automatically lose their Internet account. Get rid of these people and having to put up with MS woudl be like a walk in the park
Funny you don’t reserve your wrath against the strong like MSFT who denies you choices and leaves you with as even you say “not perfect” Windows.
You’re right – my wrath is reserved for those cocksuckers who like to hurl insults at me simply because I don’t use the same OS they do.
No, you prefer to violently attack the weaker linux movement – yep, kick the weaker.
Personally, I don’t have anything against the Linux movement. If the Linux community sees Windows as something they don’t want to use and want to make something better for themselves, more power to them. If they want to build ‘Linux for the masses’, I think they’re wasting their time, but I don’t have a problem with it, so more power to them. Normally, my ‘attacks’ are aimed towards those zealots who usually have something stupid/uninformed to say – ie “Windows crashes all the time, blah blah blah …” Believe it or not, I don’t personally have anything against Linux, but rather the few outspoken individuals who won’t shut up about what they perceive to be God’s gift to OS’s.
Yeah, wonderful. Have you noticed that in most of your posts you go out of your way to attack linux?
Go back and read the archives and I think that in 95% of the cases (at least), you’ll see my posts as a response to someone else (see above).
When you sit by yourself, without having to defend yourself from anyone but your conscience, what do you think to yourself?
What I think about is – WHY THE HELL DO I HAVE TO KEEP DEFENDING MYSELF?
I mean, here I am (along with many others) using WIndows, and by the attitudes of some people, you’d think we committed murder. I mean, geez … now I understand how the homosexuals feel. Constantly persecuted, and for what??
And why the hell do people continue to bash/boycott Microsoft and basically ingore all of the other corporate criminals? And don’t give me any bullshit about ILLEGAL business activities – this kind of crap was going on long before they were found guilty of anything.
PS – If you want to continue this discussion (as I’m sure this thread will soon be lost in the pile), the email address listed in the header is real.
Yes you might be right. But I had a lot of problms when I used KWord in my RH8.0. It just CANNT open a normal rtf file, meanwhile OO dos it without problems. OO also has also better fonts. Kword seems to me too buggy.
it is a simple matter darius.
1. microsoft does not need you to defend them. between gates, the company and the top 5 officers, there is 120 billion dollars. they can defend the monopoly themselves.
2. this is a forum about OPERATING SYSTEMS…note the trailing “S”, indicating plural. Microsoft HAD every intention on removing that “S”. One world, one government, one operating system {sarcasm)
3. it’s ok to use microsoft. but you look like a lemming/sheep when you VIGOROUSLY defend them. you can use them, and not be a sheep, because you may not have a choice. For non-technical people, this is true. Most don’t have a choice.
the last point is represented by a spectrum….you are pretty much at one end though. it’s not about “not attacking” another OS…it’s about defending just one.
in a forum, where the representation of different operating systems in no way matches real world usage, it’s no surprise then that many here, in view of point 2., won’t really appreciate your perspective.
microsoft is underrepresented here…and every other os overrepresented.
deal with it.
Microsoft is only one convicted of defying antitrust laws. But then again, reading up antitrust laws, I can list out a number of companies eligible for suing – like Apple. The big problem is that what can I get? Microsoft is a rich company, the richest software company. Why target software companies like AutoCAD – how much can you get?
That’s why everyone is suing Microsoft. If just say the software market is 1000 times smaller, but Microsoft just as ruthless, would anyone would sue? Doubt it. Which is one of the many many many many many reasons why I don’t support antitrust laws
>>>But then again, reading up antitrust laws, I can list out a number of companies eligible for suing *snip*
so your proof of microsoft’s innocence is: others are guilty too.
i noticed you mentioned nothing about severity or degree.
persuasive argument.
keep it coming.
If you read any of my comments, you would realize I never said Microsoft ISN’T guilty. I always say Microsoft *shouldn’t* be guilty. You must be incredibly bad in comprehension because you fail to realize i’m anti-antitrust from my posts. As for severity, I invite you to check it out yourself – I wouldn’t know. Had Microsoft’s case fell into another judges’ hand, the punishment would be different – it depends on the judge.
My opinion is, that OO has more professional look and does its job much more better than KWord. KWord has a bit toyish look. U know, guys at KWord need to fix a lot bugs before u can say it is better than OO.sure it seems to load faster than OO but in functionality OO is much more ahead.
One damnd stupid bug of KWord is(I experience it still in Suse 8.1, ,The same is true for RH 8.0):
Open KWord with a new blank document. From Insert menu select
table of contents.Then “change ur mind” and click Undo.Please tell me what happens
.
Regards.
“3. it’s ok to use microsoft. but you look like a lemming/sheep when you VIGOROUSLY defend them. you can use them, and not be a sheep, because you may not have a choice. For non-technical people, this is true. Most don’t have a choice”
You can also MAKE A CHOICE to use Microsoft, and not be a sheep, quite a few people who visit OS News do exactly that, they are technically adept enough to use any half decent operating system, but they choose Microsoft because they feel the advantages outweigh the disadvantages (technically, financially and morally). You might personally think these people are uninformed, have the wrong priorities, or are acting imorally, but they can hardly be described as sheep.
Rajan R.
Just because laws are not applied universally does not mean that the laws should be scrapped. In some cases we should be pushing for them to be applied in more situations, in others we should look at the reality of the situation, rather than the letter of the law.
Anti trust laws are there on the whole to prevent a situation where a company with a monopoly can use that power to completely distort the usual balance of forces that work in a market. Microsoft is in that position, Apple on the whole is not.
Note that the class actions came out AFTER the DOJ and State prosecutions… those were not for-profit cases, though the sudden reversal when the Republicans came into power does rather smell of a financial or at least “old boys network” influence.
On the other hand on more basic levels (IP theft, fraud, breach of contract and so on), I think laws definately should be applied universally and strongly. No company should be allowed to get away with that kind of thing.
it’s ok to use microsoft. but you look like a lemming/sheep when you VIGOROUSLY defend them. you can use them, and not be a sheep, because you may not have a choice. For non-technical people, this is true. Most don’t have a choice.
I guess what I’m defending is my RIGHT to use Microsoft products (or anything else for that matter) without public scorn or ridicule from those individuals who don’t seem to understand that there are still some things you just CANNOT do with these alternative OS’s. Of course, there’s always Macs, but even then, you’re still relegated to running Virtual PC and Windows for some things.
Many are missing the point with monopolies – monopolies are LEGAL under U.S. law. If you have a superior product that consumers freely choose and you end up with a 100% market share, you have a legal monopoly. However, there is a problem if you have achieved or are maintaining, or extending your monopoly through ILLEGAL means – now you have an ILLEGAL monopoly.
Example: two merchants in a small town. Merchant “stopdabombing” has superior products and lower prices. He drives merchant “rajan” out of business, and achieves monopoly in the town. U.S. law says – that’s fine, you have a legal monopoly. But, in the next town, there is a different scenario. Now merchant “stopdabombing” has inferior products at a higher price, but he kidnaps merchant “rajan’s” wife and extracts a huge ransom, driving merchant “rajan” out of business. Now merchant “stopdabombing” has an illegal monopoly.
Microsoft has been convicted in a court of law of being an illegal monopoly. That’s what’s wrong – not that MSFT is a monopoly as such (which is why the Apple example is useless), but that they committed monopoly crimes – how this is bad for the consumer is obvious. Darius point that all businesses engage in illegal conduct is wrong on two grounds – first, it simply is not true, because there are many that do not, and second it is a non-sequitor – the number of criminals or prevalence of a crime does not affect the legality of a law (“but officer – the next guy raped too” – won’t wash), nor does it make it any less harmful to the consumer, nor does it make it any less desirable to clean up the mess.
@rajan – your position of anti-anti-trust is disastrous economically. As a matter of fact, what is best about capitalism and market forces is one thing: competition. Anti-trust legislation prevents the destruction of competition. The father of modern market theory, Adam Smith cautioned against that by citing merchants who meet together in order to set common prices – and he declared that practice to be deeply destructive. Thank God, the U.S. listened to him, and established anti-trust laws which allowed this country to flourish. I don’t know where you come from, or what your experience is, but the universal laws of competition and the necessity of busting trusts holds all over the world – countries that have forgotten that, have gotten into dire economic situations. I think you have no background in economics.
Why spending $$$ when there are better things like Linux and OpenOffice?
http://www.openoffice.org (available for linux, mac, windoze, …)
Linux distros
http://www.redhat.com
http://www.slackware.com
http://www.debian.org
n0dez
Darius point that all businesses engage in illegal conduct is wrong
Ummm, no. First of all, I’m talking about ‘big’ businesses here (especially Corporations), not all businesses.
And secondly, I didn’t say they all do engage in illegal activity – I said they would do it under optimal circumstances.
not that MSFT is a monopoly as such (which is why the Apple example is useless), but that they committed monopoly crimes
I was not limiting my discussion to monopolies – but shady business practices in general.
Microsoft has been convicted in a court of law of being an illegal monopoly. That’s what’s wrong
Of course, you’re right .. technically speaking. But I fail to understand where people get this logic that it’s ok to be Corporate Whores to clothing manufactures (anyone who has ever paid more than $100 for a pair of tennis shoes with a brand name of them is probably still bleeding from the asshole), the RIAA, the MPAA, cable companies, telcos, etc. who are fucking consumers out of BILLIONS each year, but then let’s all become political activists when it comes to Microsoft ??? Just because they haven’t been convicted of anything YET (or have they?) doesn’t make it any more right than what Microsoft is doing. The only difference is that Microsoft had the brazen brass balls to not even bother to hide it, thinking they could get away with it.
“And secondly, I didn’t say they all do engage in illegal activity – I said they would do it under optimal circumstances. ”
Companies are collections of individuals, each of whom is a potential criminal. The larger the company gets, the more chances there are that someone in the company will do something illegal in the course of the company’s business, so by simple probability mathematics it’s pretty likely that large megacorps will have something dodgy going on somewhere. It is the corporation’s responsibility to prevent this, which is why they would be liable for damages in such a case.
But there’s a big difference between this and criminality as company policy. Company policy is set by the people in charge of the company, so your statement presupposes that all people in charge of big businesses are criminal in nature, just that some of them don’t think they could get away with it… do you limit this prejudice to successful people or do you think this is true of humanity as a whole?
As for your comment on what other companies have done and are doing, and the fact that Microsoft is getting so much flack because “The only difference is that Microsoft had the brazen brass balls to not even bother to hide it, thinking they could get away with it.”
The very fact that they did not bother to hide it is good cause for picking on them FIRST (Any other corporations guilty of illegal activities should follow). There are a couple of good reasons for this.
1) If someone sees someone else openly committing a crime, then they’re more likely to think it’s ok for them to do it, because it seems society, or at least the justice system, doesn’t really consider it a crime.
2) Those who are ready to commit a crime regardless of how it is viewed by society will not be able to do it in the open, they will be forced to do it secretly. That takes a lot more effort to keep things hidden, effort generally costs money, thus making the crime less profitable and so less attractive.
Once you’ve tackled the obvious breaches, then you can use your resources to dig and find what’s been hidden more deeply.
But the Microsoft/DOJ thing was handled badly, firstly I don’t think that bundling of IE with Windows was such a big deal, it was all the other things that came to light in the trial that they should have been prosecuted for. And then after they were found guilty, no real punishment has occured, which makes the whole system seem toothless.
damnd stupid bug of KWord is(I experience it still in Suse 8.1, ,The same is true for RH 8.0):
Open KWord with a new blank document. From Insert menu select
table of contents.Then “change ur mind” and click Undo.Please tell me what happens
.
No. Choose ‘page layout’ with 3 ‘frames’.
Then click the frames you don’t want, and start typing and resizing the frames as you would like your document to be printed, you can undo just fine. Always works (most of the times) for me.
You can always Insert > New frame and put a picture or a new text sentence and move it in the doc ‘a la’ Microsoft Publisher (this is tricky but works 90% of the times). ‘Print’ the doc with “Print to PDF” (GNU ghostscript). Open it with Xpdf and either read it or print it with finer quality.
I use kword 1.2.1 (if I recall it well).The last test I did was to open the MySQL text manual page (about a 2.1 MB file)and print it to pdf. Takes a few minutes but it doesn’t crash on my Mandrake 9.0 (duron 1.2 Ghz).
Off course, when I have to make a very professional doc with plenty formating (foot notes, cross reference) and good fonts I will my Office XP (or maybe Lyx).
(Sorry
OpenOffice is my last choice, I personnaly never used it.
But there’s a big difference between this and criminality as company policy.
Yes Mr. Bill Gates wants to keep the MS Office formats closed and incompatible. So what ? He can wwhat he likes with the software he invented. And 90 percent of windows users are really sheeps (me included, hue!)!
Think of a big insurance company with hundreds of employes changing internal documents via email corporate servers. Do you tink they would use OO format ? They use text for messages and .doc and .xls for attachments; that’s what Microsoft’s XML wants, a interchangable (xml) format bettwen all Office Suite documents (lock them inside and don’t let them escape, ever) not the home user typing on OO at a linux system. That’s not crime that’s agressive bussiness and the real world (the strongest wins).
so your statement presupposes that all people in charge of big businesses are criminal in nature, just that some of them don’t think they could get away with it… do you limit this prejudice to successful people or do you think this is true of humanity as a whole?
Humanity as a whole? No, not really. This kind of thing is a result of being properly ‘trained’ by the Advertising and Corporate Machine. THere was a study once that kids who watched little or no TV tended to be less greedy than the others. Can you take a guess as to why that is?
i’m glad i participated.
i’m sure this would be a hulluva lot more fun (and far less serious) over a pitcher of beer.
>> So your data is still available for export, but you don’t get the layout info. And why would you need to?
Hmmm, how many reasons do you want? Image all web sites without any layout info. They would all look pretty bland.
What if you wanted to generate technical documentation (as I do a lot for legal companies) on the fly, from web to PDF to OO format. I use XML for all of this and I need the layout info (stlyesheets) to do it, its all part and parcel. Hence why I output in OO and PDF not Word.
If M$ can’t give me the stylesheets to turn the XML into something useful then theres no point in the functionality of having it.
Unless you want to go back to the ‘good ‘ol days’ of the text based browser and notepad?
microsoft is a perfect example of what unfortunately
so much of american business has become. instead of
competing, business has become stealing and coniving.
the future of computers is not proprietary but open
source. isnt freedom something that the u s is supposed
to stand for ? of course big american corporations have
redifined the word freedom.
i have spoken to many people in austin texas and practically
all of them tell me that stealing is nothing more than a
good business tactic. what are we becoming ?
“Unless you want to go back to the ‘good ‘ol days’ of the text based browser and notepad?”
It wouldn’t be surprising tm me in that least, if they hid some of the meaning in the style sheets, or designed them in such a way that meaning would be obscure without them.
The key point about this has nothing to do with Microsoft, Open Office, or Linux. It has to do with being honest to people about how *their own property* is being stored, and whether that property can be recovered intact from another piece of reading equipment that has nothing to do with the original one.
Imagine if you had to go to a particular manufacturer to look at pictures you took with a camera.
Or if you had some old vinyl recordings and only a company that’s been out of business 20 years knew how to play them back?
As far as I’m concerned, this kind of “data lock-in” trick is patently ridiculous. I don’t care *how* big and powerful Microsoft may be, it must stop.