It seems that the SMP 1.25 & 1.42 GHz Apple PowerMacs came by default with a NEC USB 2.0 controller and no one knew about it. A Korean site broke the news that while these Macs are currently sold as “USB 1.1”, in reality they are USB 2.0-capable, missing only the drivers needed to function as such. Some users claim that these drivers work fine with that NEC chipset, as USB 2.0. Caution: Installation on other Mac models could render the system inoperable.
Unofficial USB 2.0 Drivers for MDD Power Macs
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I have not read anywhere where the Orange Micro drivers add USB2 functionality or even work:
From http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/
Another MDD G4 USB 2.0 Driver report on Orange Micro drivers not compatible –
Another report as a follow-up to yesterday’s news items on possible USB 2.0 drivers for NEC USB 2.0 chip based MDD G4/1.25-1.42GHz models. A Dual 1.25GHz MDD owner noted the same (major) problem mentioned yesterday by a MDD Dual 1GHz owner (which did not have the NEC chip)
“Hi Mike,
I posted this in the BBS this (yesterday) afternoon :
Trying that new Orange Micro USB 2 driver on my FW 800 dual 1.25 Gz Mac (without an Orange Micro card, but with the “good” NEC controller) did not work. Not work = my Mac would no longer would boot up at all. Lucky for me I had seen this before (playing with a SanDisk USB 2 6-in-1 reader and installing a USB 2 driver that was unneeded in 10.2.5) and had another OS X drive to boot off of internally. That Orange Micro package does NOT leave a nice clean log file to tell you just what it did, but I was able to find the .kext files that had been changed and can now boot again (with USB 1.1 internal ports – sigh).
— Joseph ”
Another related email:
“Hi Mike,
Just FYI for your readers. Yes, loading incorrect kernel extensions can leave your Mac into an unbootable state. Usually, you can fix this by going into single-user mode (Cmd-s during reboot); fsck the disk while your /System/Library/Extensions directory (usually your root–/–partition) is mounted in read-only mode; remounting it as read-write; removing the extensions; then reboot. When you get into single-user mode, it has part of this procedure displayed.
With that in mind, to see if things work, you’d only need to install the EHCI extension. Rebooting in verbose mode (Cmd-v) will probably give a good indication if it has problems. To check if the driver is actually working, run the “ioreg” command within Terminal to see if the device has an associated driver attached.
Ken L. “
Can someone explain why Macs don’t have USB 2.0 in first place?
Kobold,
This has come up a few times here. For some reason many make people don’t want it. Maybe apple feels this way to. Though in reality it’s crazy not to support it. I mentioned before it would take no effort to do it since the plugs and such are the same. All apple needs to do it change the chip. And indeed they did that. My guess it there is probably a lot less production of USB 1.1 chips now since it’s kinda pointless to make USB 1.1 and 2 chips when only USB 2 chips are needed. So apple probably will be using USB2 chips in the feature even if they chose for whatever reason not to support it. It’s not a issue of if USB 2 or firewire is better. It’s just a matter that USB2 is here, and growing like mad. Apple has no choice but to support it.
I hope maybe the same thing is going on with new powerbooks.
USB 2.0 is a direct competitor to Apples own firewire. Additionally, benchmarks have proven again and again that the superior firewire is faster than USB 2.0 in nearly all instances, despite USB 2.0s higher theoretical transfer rate.
Personally, I fail to see the purpose of USB 2.0 at all. Why can’t I just get it with a firewire port and have it work better?
Firewire is not superior for a very simple reason: royalties. Technically inferior free standarts have repeatedly defeated the ones that require a licencing fee. Apple’s market share is at 5% for that reason. Let’s hope they would learn this lesson.
The purpose of USB 2.0 is choise. You know, like being able to have or not have an inferior floppy drive. Give users some choise – those who only plug in a keyboard and mouse to USB won’t feel worse because of it.
“The purpose of USB 2.0 is choise. You know, like being able to have or not have an inferior floppy drive. Give users some choise – those who only plug in a keyboard and mouse to USB won’t feel worse because of it.”
When has Apple ever restricted Mac users from connecting floppy drives to their computers?
Apple completely removed floppies from Macs and it doesn’t provide a 3.5″ slot on their machines. So the only option is an external floppy, the one that I saw last time at a Mac department of the university store costs $90 canadian ($60 US) + 14% sales tax. Compare that with a $15 canadian ($10 US) internal PC floppy drive.
So Apple did *partially* restrict floppy usage. Using a floppy with Mac isn’t impossbile, but it definitely got harder and costlier.
http://www.rstrc.com/Catalog/macintosh_internal_floppy_drive_978019…
USB2 is good for systems that don’t come with FW but since Apple is shipping most Macs with FW400 and FW800, it is a moot point to include USB2.
USB2 is also a direct competitor to FW400 so it would not be in their best interest to have Mac users purchase USB2 devices over FW.
If you’ve used USB2 and FW devices you’ll find the FW across the board is faster.
That previous link appears to be for older Macs.
Here’s some resources for internal floppy drives in newer Macs.
http://www.aiyamicro.com/htm-mostly-retail-items/data-storage-flopp…
http://www.globalmart.com/page/m/ing_mrmg4qs.htm
http://www.welovemacs.com/lovemacs/idock2.html
Macs don’t need floppies. Repeat after me: Macs don’t need floppies. You can boot a mac to a unix prompt from the OSX installer CDs (boot the installer single user). CD blanks are 30 cents a piece now, and they are alot more reliable. It actually costs _more_ to use floppies (10 bux for 10). Please justify this hold out of yours over a floppy drive — I doubt seriously you can.
The only reason PCs still ship with floppies is so the system can boot a rescue disk when the OS munges the boot partition by faulty driver install, etc., and the last remnants of folks who still insist upon the unreliable, overpriced floppy (I hope no one using floppies is a money manager for my money).
On FW vs. USB2.0: USB2.0 is not superior in anyway to firewire, that _includes_ royalties. Apple dropped royalties some time ago (or made it really cheap). To get the firewire symbol, though, you do have to meet all specifications at the time of release. This is a good thing too. This means your camcorder and your Canopus video capture box will work perfectly, on your PC or your Mac. FW is the only choice for true professional video editing. USB2.0 is a joke in that arena.
USB2.0 is processor centric, requires a PC to do anything, and is wasteful. It has nil chance of ever hitting theoretical throughput of even FW-A, much less FW-B, in the best of situations with a PC and real external component capable of fast IO. FW is a self arbitrating bus, it configures itself, requires no host, and supports both bus speeds on the same wire (if the connectors you are using allows the FW-B speeds — the older connector was physically limited to 400Mbps).
Additionally, last time I checked, a FW-A card was 10 dollars cheaper than a 3 port USB-1.1 card. That’s nuts, USB-1.1 should be selling at 10bux a card like ethernet by now, and yet the superior standard, FWA, is cheaper.
10 bux cheaper? You mean $3? http://shop.vendio.com/ronrsr/item/560351440/index.html?s=105066008… . Please not that it is USB 2.0.
As for floppies, I got a box of 150 1.44 meg ones for $1 canadian on a church sale. Definitely enough till we get flying cars
. This costs much less then CDRs, which have an additional levy here (so there are no cheap blanks). I have an old 486 (still enough for web browsing and reading), and it can’t even boot from CD. Sometimes I need to transfer data and I am not sure if the machine on the other end (like my university’s old junk) have a modern enough CD-ROM drive.
USB1/2 is a simpler protocol and the USB2 functionality is implemented on virtually every PC chipset.
Effectively, it makes USB2 free in the PC world. Firewire is catching up slowly, being implemented on several non-Intel PC chipsets, but has very little market penetration compared to USB/USB2.
I think it is silly for Apple not to release a DRIVER for USB2 as they obviously shipped their machines with a USB2 chip.
Rumor has it that Apple will include USB2 on the new iPod as the PC market reality is USB2, not Firewire.
Contrary to popular belief, not everyone is a video editor and needs Firewire. Outside of video, there is no compelling reason for Firewire. Yes, it is somewhat faster than USB2. But not so much for the mainstream user to care.
Apple screwed up with Firewire as they didn’t even let anyone else use the name “Firewire” without royalities until very recently thus fragmenting the brand. The chips still do carry sizeable cost disadvantages vs. USB2. So, it is another case of Apple’s overwhelming GREED that even caused USB to exist in the first place.
Hopefully Apple will come out with some real business reason for Firewire 800. So far there’s only fast drives that seem like a good match. And USB3 will be fast enough for these drives. Maybe there will be some affordable HD video camcorder down the line sometime that will use Firewire. But today, Firewire doesn’t do all too much that USB2 cannot do, albeit a bit slower some of the time.
Macs don’t need floppies. Repeat after me: Macs don’t need floppies. You can boot a mac to a unix prompt from the OSX installer CDs (boot the installer single user). CD blanks are 30 cents a piece now, and they are alot more reliable. It actually costs _more_ to use floppies (10 bux for 10). Please justify this hold out of yours over a floppy drive — I doubt seriously you can.
Thanks for telling me how to compute. Next thing we’ll all be extending our arms out to the fuerer, and goosestepping at Mac World. No thanks. I leave all you delusional nincompoops (who think 95 for a floppy drive is “normal”) to benchmarking your photoshop filters.
Royalties used to be $1 per firewire port and $3 for a chipset that is cheaper then $5. The per-port fee was later slashed to $0.25. I am not sure about the chipset fee. However, the damage was already done – the industry already decided on USB 2.0. If Firewire was free from the start, we could have it in both PCs and Macs. Unfortunately, someone thought different.
Can you provide supporting details for the cost of USB2.0 controllers vs. a Firewire controller? Many PC chipsets are now shipping with 1394 on board (except Intel, of course). There is no point to use USB2.0 at that point — and may I reiterate — USB2.0 doesn’t require the level of certification of FW, and USB2.0 drops back to 1.1 speed level when the controller smells a 1.1 device near. That really sucks. That really sucks bad. It pretty much makes USB2.00 unusable for anything I am remotely interested in…
Additionally, I would argue that USB is not adequate for the normal user. Plug in some USB speakers, now do a burn at once to your CD drive and play a MP3. Hope you enjoy the musical “mantage” of silence and noise. Or maybe you’ll get a coaster, but USB CAN”T do both at once
It’s unpossible!
An Apple user talking about overpriced stuff is really funny to hear
Are iPods actually USB 1.1? On a high-capacity player? You know, it almost seems like they don’t want me to buy an iPod before buying a Mac and tattoing Apple logo on my forehead.
I might agree that technically USB 2.0 is a bit worse then Firewire. The reason for which it has lost and was squished into a tight market niche is known from PC vs. Mac and ISA vs. MCA are: cost and licensing.
The USB problem you describe is beautifully solved by having no Firewire speakers on the <$500 market
.
Home networking!
Firewire networking is WAY better than using ethernet.
The only downside is that the nodes can not be any farther than 15 feet. But Windows XP Pro and Mac OS X support it so I use it. Talk about pure speed!
I believe that firewire is also an IEEE standard, so I do not think that royalties are involved there. It is quite widespread with the digital video world…
Home networking!
Firewire networking is WAY better than using ethernet.
The only downside is that the nodes can not be any farther than 15 feet. But Windows XP Pro and Mac OS X support it so I use it. Talk about pure speed!
I actually did a test, rather than just going “Oh FireWire is 400mbit, so it’s faster than 100mbit”. Results IP over Firewire is slower than rusing standard ethernet cables through a 10/100 8 port Linksys switch.
A 30Mb file took under 4 seconds for ethernet, 12 seconds for firewire.
A 200Mb file took under a minute for ethernet, and over 2 minutes for firewire.
The larger the file was, the bigger the difference was between the two.
(sorry, I don’t have the actual numbers with me, as they are at home and I am not, but you can do the test for yourself and see).
Although if you don’t have the ethernet cables or the switch and just happen to have a bunch of long firewire cables lying around, it does beat having no network.
javi, that’s what Google is for: http://www.google.com/search?q=firewire+royalties&sourceid=opera&nu…
There definitely were royalties. Not sure about now. Currently, Apple could give manufacturers $2 per firewire port. It won’t help anyway – firewire suffered imminent death by licensing.
It doesn’t bloody hell makes any difference if USB 2.0 is slower than FireWire. The fact is that it is being widely use, especially more so in the future when it becomes a standard feature for PCs. Besides, USB2 is affordable for devices that don’t need to maximize on speed (need something faster than USB1.1, but don’t need to be as fast as FireWire) – USB2 can bring down the cost (it probabl7y matter little when you do it bulk, but I don’t know about that).
USB (and USB2) are master-slave architectures — this is bad. It’s an antiquated system from when devices were stupid enough that they couldn’t govern themselves. The future is most definitely in peer-communications.
Firewire is not faster than 100BaseTX, but later generation standards based on firewire will be. Firewire 800 is rated for 100 feet, so this is a step in the right direction. USB’s domination of the market doesn’t mean it’s good, just so it’s clear.
Personally I don’t think I’ve used a floppy disk in years. But that doesn’t mean that they aren’t still needed by a lot of people.
For example, floppy disks are the only way for students to take work in to my local college. Most of their workstations aren’t online, internet time has to be booked in advance so e-mailing work isn’t practical. None of the computers have CD writers, so even if a student was willing to burn a CD-R every time they want to bring in some work, they wouldn’t be able to take work home on CD-R.
I imagine there’s a similar situation with a lot of schools and colleges.
The die hard pc fanboys users are moaning about the lack of USB2 on an apple machine they do not have anyway, got to laugh!
Has anyone stopped to think that USB2 is not a top priority at apple at the moment? If they are changing to a different processor and system board then introducing USB2 on the current line is a waste when the newer mainboards will have it.
However, with the introduction of the 12″ and 17″ PB’s one does have to wonder what went wrong there since they are “newer” boards, but then again, they may be waiting for the 970 and its accompanying mainboard with USB2 included.
USB2 vs FW 400 or 800 i think isn’t an issue, if its so much better why arn’t mac users just buying firewire mice and keyboards since its better than USB1.1, its less load off the processor if they did that come to think of it!
Let’s all just wait an see what happens with the 970 or G5 then we can assume the reasons for not including it in them rather than do it now if only to stop bitching about Apple’s processors.
This post btw will get buried underneath the pile of crappy posts regarding Apple/FW vs PC/USB so ignore this anyway.
I wish Apple would die today already then half the PC world will shut up and the other half will say “told you so” instead of moaning about the same old.
USB (and USB2) are master-slave architectures — this is bad. It’s an antiquated system from when devices were stupid enough that they couldn’t govern themselves. The future is most definitely in peer-communications.
Do you want your mouse to be so smart that it can think of it’s own? USB is good for lowcost periferals, mice, tablets
even scanners work fine.
Maybe back in the old days around the C64 area master/slave
wasn’t to bright because the program kept waiting for
the input but nowadays with real multitasking, a (tablet)driver is just sleeping for most of the time, waking up every few (10) milliseconds (that is snoozing 20 million clockcycles on a 2GHz machine)
so the master/slave approach just works, it’s easy enough to implement. and doesn’t eat much processor time)
USB is no longer just used to connect your mouse. So yes, the whole master/slave thing is bad. Now you will need USB3 or maybe 4 to get that. When firewire had that a long time ago.
Anyway, its sad that companies, rather than the market decide on such issues. Get this, you do not need a processor to be able to use Firewire, yet you need that for USB. Firewire has applications outside computers(as in Macs ans PCs). So do not expect it to die just yet. It might actually become even more used due to it not being too PC centric. But time will tell.
apple will indefinitely ‘block’ those USB 2 pipes in the next OS X update
(didn’t they do that schemy thing with B/W G3s so they wouldn’t be able to use G4 upgrades, a couple of years ago?) 
“Do you want your mouse to be so smart that it can think of it’s own? USB is good for lowcost periferals, mice, tablets
even scanners work fine.”
So why would you need USB2 for a mouse then? 1.1 provides enough bandwidth just fine for that (hell, USB was introduced on Macs to replace the crappy slow old ADB, and add support for more devices).
What is the point in having USB2 for Mac when you have FireWire on the board as well?
Its already a well known fact the FW is faster than USB2 despite the 80 extra megabits USB2 has.
They make FW scanners, webcams, external HDs, CDRWs and card readers. Why would you choose a USB2 implemention in these cases over FW, especially in a pro enviroment? If you have a specific need for a USB2 ONLY solution you can buy a USB2 card for the Mac. Is there USB2 specific hardware out there?
In the case of PCs, if you already have USB2 on board it is almost pointless to get a FW card unless you wanted something faster than USB2 which will be good enough for a lot of applications.
The whole idea of iPod going USB2 is ridiculous. Half the iPods sold last quarter were to PC users. I am sure they were not pining for USB2 over FireWire.
As far as FW dying because Apple dropped the ball, I don’t think so. The entertainment industry loves FireWire. You will find FireWire on Alienware and Sony PCs. High end and mainstream equipment also support FireWire. You will also find support for FireWire in XP so it is a standard validated by the largest software company in the world.
http://www.animationartist.com/2001/08_aug/news/cw_apple_emmy.htm
ipod charges thru firewire,
does USB have that capability?
(people here who are anti mac criticise EVERYTHING about apple.
the usual suspects.you know its predictable, boring, and i almost feel sorry for them.)
Apple lags and lags when it comes to supporting affordable industry standard connectivity. The only things Apple supports ahead of time are too expensive for most people to use (Firewire, Gigabit Ethernet) until years and years have passed.
To date, the only compelling use of Firewire is digital video and there just aren’t that many people making their own videos on Macs. Firewire is mainly there then for the professional users, a tiny fraction of all personal computer users.
So to the mainstream buyer, Firewire is irrelevant. As is Gigabit Ethernet. It’s only been in the past month that Gigabit over copper has dropped to $20/port.
Having said the obvious, let me restate that there is nothing new here. Apple has never liked selling computers to mainstream users. Apple, Steve Jobs, and Macheads all hate normal people with a passion. They would do anything to make their machine less usuable by mainstream PC users.
So let’s just let the Macheads be happy with their little piece of pie. If you don’t talk about the size of their pie, they don’t get as defensive and it really helps the message forum stay intelligble and rational. Otherwise the Macheads go nuts and although some of the half-brained Apple excuses and rationales are entertaining, most are merely sad.
The basic governing equation of Apple has always been something along the lines of:
think different = think subculture = think small
There’s nothing new here. Apple is busy thinking on how to shrink their market share. Part of “think small” is not including USB2 drivers when they ship machines with USB2 chips. It’s just more of the same old “fuck the customer” Apple attitude. Yawn. Pass the salt.
OK, Firewire is a technically superior standard to USB 2.0.
So what? USB 2.0 offers something that Firewire can’t – compatibility with USB 1.0. I can take a USB 2.0 MP3 player and use it on an iBook, and it will still be usable (albeit slower). And I can use my USB 2.0 card with USB 1.1 devices.
Firewire is different, but it is not better. It’s faster. OK. It’s peer-to-peer. OK. Now, who actually cares? For a scanner, an MP3 player, or a digital camera, no one gives a crap about whether you can get 200 megabits or 300 megabits.
Now, FireWire is better for things like digital camcorders, VCRs, HDTVs, or hard drives. That’s when the peer-to-peer and the better speed really counts.
FireWire, by the way, bites as a networking standard. Gigabit cards are $30. Switches are under $200.
Both USB 2.0 and FireWire have there places.
USB 2.0 is for webcams, MP3 players, digital cameras, and CD/DVD burners – devices that you’ll probably always want to connect to a PC, and devices that don’t need insane bandwidth.
FireWire is for TVs, HD VCRs, Digicams, Hard Drives, and anything else that needs insane bandwidth or deals with DV. That’s what it’s best at.
Not that it matters, anyway. You can get an NForce2 based motherboard with the MCP-T which has both USB 2.0 and Firewire onboard (as well as 2x100mbit ethernet) for about $135.
@Michael
Hey thats great! Okay now what do we need USB2 for when FireWire is already on my motherboard?
Is it faster than FireWire? NO
Is it better than FireWire? NO
Will I be able to use more devices? NO
Is it more efficient? NO
Whats your point genius?
“Apple lags and lags when it comes to supporting affordable industry standard connectivity. The only things Apple supports ahead of time are too expensive for most people to use (Firewire, Gigabit Ethernet) until years and years have passed.”
Apple’s first iMac supported USB as its serial port technology long before the PC industry started even using USB. Hell, Dells that ship today don’t even ship with USB mice and keyboards unlike all Macs. Last I heard Apple uses PCI AGP, 802.11b/g, Bluetooth. USB2 adapters are available for Macs. I guess all of those things are way ahead of their time and too expensive for most people to use.
“Having said the obvious, let me restate that there is nothing new here. Apple has never liked selling computers to mainstream users. Apple, Steve Jobs, and Macheads all hate normal people with a passion. They would do anything to make their machine less usuable by mainstream PC users.”
I guess iApps are all aimed at corporate users since Apple has such disdain for the consumer. I guess all the Apple stores cater to business customers as well. Oh well you must be right.
“So let’s just let the Macheads be happy with their little piece of pie. If you don’t talk about the size of their pie, they don’t get as defensive and it really helps the message forum stay intelligble and rational. Otherwise the Macheads go nuts and although some of the half-brained Apple excuses and rationales are entertaining, most are merely sad.”
Apple has a tiny marketshare. See? No crying, no aching, no sighing? Unbelievable right? Also understand that as the computer market gets larger Apple’s marketshare will get smaller despite modest gains. Apple does have problems getting new customers but it is getting new customers.
It would be a challenge to counter your arguments if they made sense, otherwise they are just too easy to shoot down.
@Brian. I do think that Apple will incorporate USB2 into their motherboards but at this time its not a priority and Apple is all about proliferating FW, it only makes sense. If you want USB2 on Mac you can have it, I don’t see what the big deal is.
As far as USB2 being compatible with USB1 that great but Macs come with USB1 on board. Also hooking up a USB1 device to a USB2 port slows down all the devices on that chain to USB1 speeds.
USB is a great technology. My iSub, keyboard and MS mouse use it. My KVM connected to my Mac and PC use it. its a port standard that has allowed a lot of PC peripherals to be used with Macs. For a Mac that has FW on board it is a moot point to have USB2, its not necessary because FW is already there and is faster. There are no compelling devices using USB2 that cannot be found on FW at this time IMHO. If their is I’ll get a USB2 card for my Mac and may do the same for my ECS motherboard.
I will admit I am usually biased against Apple. One of the things that Apple did that I admired was create firewire. It is a great transport, especially for Video.
Technologically, it may be better than USB2.0, though not by as much as some here seem to indicate.
Apple could have dominated the market had they not been greedy. Sheer greed forced the peripheral companies to go the USB route.
Granted, there are a few more peripherals out now that support firewire, but by and large, there is a much larger selection of devices available to USB users.
What I don’t understand is why people would defend eliminating choice. If the hardware already exists, and all that is necessary is a simple addition of a driver, why not do it? How is it going to hurt anything? If firewire is so superior, people will keep using it. It’s not going to just go away. But people will have more choices on peripheral devices.
The zealots would have you believe otherwise, but USB2 IS the standard that most consumer level products are coming out with. Inferior or not, it is here and it is dominant in the market. Where is the harm in giving your users a choice?
Heck, it may encourage more people to switch, knowing some of their existing peripherals would work on a Mac.
Silly things like this are reasons I won’t switch. I’m more than happy with my Wintel stuff. Oh, and don’t spout rhetoric about my Wintel being crash prone, slow, bloated, whatever. It has great uptime and does everything I need and more with zero problems.
There is a place for both USB 2.0 AND Firewire800 in new Macs. Apple knows this, and I would bet that when Panther gets released in June-July, there will be a USB 2.0 driver for all Mac models with this chipset. Apple will probably make a big deal of it too.
Gawd the mac verses windows idiots are at it again.
I just install an FW/usb card in my PC for devices and as said before they are very similiar technologies.
similarities
– Very close to the same number of devices.
– FW 400 / USB 2.0 both will power external devices
– Both on my sony laptop
– Both Have mini connectors sans power channel
diffs
– USB has larger market share outside cameras
– FW owns cameras
– USB has about 70 of external drive market.
– USB provides for a slow guarantee channel. (keyboard/mice)
– FW Always provides guaranteed channel. (Devices request
bandwidth at start and are limited there)
– FW Chains
– USB hubs (5 layers deep is tech limit)
Conclusion.
If you have FW devices or getting digital camera get FW.
Must have USB 1.0 consider upgradeing to USB2.0
(keyboard is USB)
And just to top it off. Macs used PC busses (128 or 256 Mbi/s max transfer rate) FW prvides 800 MBi/s transfer. hmm
I think the 800 is marketing bullshit. Therefore the max speed is crap. When mac gets 64 bit 66Mhz pci buses then lets talk. (On a note both of my computers run 64 bit PCI buses (one 33 Mhz one 66 Mhz) So this entire argument is stupid, Mac screwed up and hurt FW so bad it may never recover, shrug, big deal. USB has more uses, eaiser to write drivers for. FW is more like SCSI and for “Serial busses” thats bad.
Aldo show me ONE embedded chip with an FW port while Microchip sells and USB enhanced PIC micro, and Rockwell sells an bluetooth package that has an usb port. USB may no be technically superior but it’s a hell of lot easier to use.
just my 6 cents,
L. Donaldson
Note: I dud not look up exact numbers so I may be off by a few percetage points here and there.
So why would you need USB2 for a mouse then? 1.1 provides enough bandwidth just fine for that (hell, USB was introduced on Macs to replace the crappy slow old ADB, and add support for more devices).
Actually for scanners, the better quality and resolution of the scanned image, the more bandwidth required – especially on high end scanners. Sure they could use USB1.1, but it would be far slower and potentially more expensive (keeping the image on the scanner and transfer takes time).
On the other hand, all high-end scanners I see nowadays comes with dual port – USB2 or FireWire..
“USB2.0 drops back to 1.1 speed level when the controller smells a 1.1 device near.”
No, it doesn’t. Read the tech specs at usb.org. USB 2.0 devices operate at full speed, even when used in conjunction with older 1.1 devices. Enhanced Host Controller Interfaces (USB 2.0 controllers) essentially include a USB 1.1 controller as well.
get it threw your heads. It’s not an issue of which is faster or which is better. USB2 is a current technology, same as firewire is. Lots of stuff is being made with USB 2. Sometimes a item is only avalible in USB2, same as sometimes it’s only avalible in firewire. People have both. You don’t just block out a current popular technology because of not liking it, or saying it’s inferior. Apple is currently trying to get it’s user base up. The people they get are coming from windows world. They are going to have USB2 devices, maybe firewire devices to. They will want it to work. Apple supporting USB2 will not hurt them in anyway. I’m sure they would like to see people using firewire, but blocking USB2 isn’t going to help firewire sales. It’s just going to stall their growth and piss people off.
Far as the floppy, they are still alive and well. Many people have to use them for things like the university example given. I have that same situation. Just because there are ways around using them doesn’t mean i want to avoid them. They work quit well. I prefer them over cdrw’s, I hate buring data to cd’s. Pre winXP you needed seperat software. Not all computers have burners. CDRW’s are bigger then floppies. And for me anyways i have never had a floppy die, an i have abused them. CD’s die very easy. One scratch and it’s over. And don’t talk about network options for moving stuff around. This is hardly an option for most people. Floppies will be around for a good while longer.
First of all, I think it’s funny as sh*t that the people who love to comment on what Apple should and shouldn’t do are probably all computer nerds who are nowhere close to 1. owning or running their own company, 2. working for a company as successful as Apple, who continues to post profits and enjoy large margins in this weak economy, or 3. have the capacity to do anything as incredible as invent Firewire among other things. I’m sorry, but I’m not so sure that Apple really needs your expert opinion to be successful. They’ve done fine w/out it so far.
So Apple chooses not to support USB 2. So f*ing what? Did we ever stop to realize that there is no shortage of equivalent or better FW devices for every USB 2 device out there? Hello!!!!
Ok, let’s say they add USB 2 support tomorrow. Am I gonna run out and start buying all kinds of USB 2 devices? Oh wait, I already have a FW webcam, a FW hard drive, a FW CDRW, FW scanner, FW card reader – and for the slower or low-power devices, my PC and Mac already have USB 1.1.
So can someone tell me what we’re all bitching about? Let’s all go back to our jobs at the failing dot com, coding sweatshop, best buy, or mcdonalds, and let Apple do their thing, because we are obviously not qualified to run Apple Computer. 😉
“And just to top it off. Macs used PC busses (128 or 256 Mbi/s max transfer rate) FW prvides 800 MBi/s transfer. hmm
I think the 800 is marketing bullshit. Therefore the max speed is crap. When mac gets 64 bit 66Mhz pci buses then lets talk.”
Firewire, USB, and gigabit ethernet are all integrated directly into the system controller on a Mac board, thus bypassing any PCI bus and basically negating your ignorant statement. Also, even if you were right (which you’re not), it has already been shown in real world tests that a PCI-based FW800 solution (external HD hooked up to FW800 card) provides a performance increase of over 2/3. Get some facts before you babble.
Darn new-fangled USB 2.0! Why can’t Macs go back to ADB ports, integrated video (with VRAM)…and Nubus…ahh the good old days of expensive proprietary hardware.
the reason that Apple is using NEC 2.0 USB chips are that its not viable to use EOL USB 1.1 chips.
The costs for 2.0 are less and more in supply. And its backwards compatible. If USB 2.0 was required, and Apple felt that a “faster” mouse was needed, I am sure it would be done. But since FW is faster, and Apple is the holder of the FW licensing, why bother with USB 2.0?
Hello?
Why does anyone argue over OS’s anymore?
Look. I’m a Mac and Unix user from waaay back. (What? How can this be? Yeah…I know).
I’ve also had my share of OS/2, BeOS and Win16/32 OS’s.
Ya know what? It doesn’t even matter
Typical Mac Users remind me of the kid that used to get picked on at the playground that never got over it. They grew up (sorta) got a Mac, and troll the ‘net, trying to show all the schoolyard bullies how “over” it, and them, they are.
Very sad.
Then there are the Wintel boys, commonly referred to as ‘Sheeple’ by some. THEY have it all…Bill Gates, The Numbers, The ‘Leet Games, The Peripherals, the whole enchilada…
But yet, they feel compelled to respond..”No..see…WE’RE ALL WINNERS you LOSER MAC *insert explicactive here*”
This is very suspect. What’s the problem? You’re Winners. You got “more”.
Mac people are winners…they have “better.”
And yes, it is. Remove “Mhz Myths” (both sides) and “dearth of applications” and the *experience* by all measurable objective criteria is a better one.
Unless the two above points are paramount to you, personally. If so, then yeah, the Win32 platform is *definately* “better” in this regard.
See? it can be both ways
Then there are guys like me
You’re both wrong. I say, as I type this from my PB 17″…
“Dowhatchalike”.
The value of a computing platform, to anyone, is based more on what the individual puts into it and gets out of it, more that anything else. I do highly techinical work for 16 hours a day. I know what I’m doing. I do NOT want the OS to “interview” me everytime I plug in something or install things. I don’t have that kind of time. It cost me money click, click, clicking, or drilling down five levels of dialogs to make it stop.
One of my best friends, OTOH, is attracted to the myriad of crap to “collect” that Win32 has to offer. He’s a compulsive nutjob, God love him, and there will never be enough for him to do.
USB 2.0 is fine. So fine, that I bought a cheapo PC USB 2.0 Cardbus card from Circuit City and popped it in my otherwise unused Cardbus slot on the Powerbook.
Not suprisingly, it sorta just worked, and that is that.
Firewire? Its alright too. Firewire800? “I don’t know, I didn’t go into Burger King.”
Like many things I pay for on my Macs, I suppose I’ll use it eventually.
But as much as I enjoy seamless networking between my hardwire, Airport and Bluetooth, and all the little “well DA-YUM…Thas’ Niiiiice” computing extras I get from using Apple Tech, I personally don’t feel compelled to jam it down anyone’s throat.
People use Windows for a reason. It works better for their needs.
Believe it or not, people use Macs for the *exact* same reasons.
If the NEC Controller on these new machines supports USB2, and *works well* you can be assured that it will be another Apple “well DA-YUM…Thas’ Niiiiice” when it is enabled in an update or OS Upgrade.
If it doesn’t work “Apple-riffic” it won’t. Nothing stops anyone from adding the capability, so I really don’t see how this went from “Try these drivers” to “Its an Apple conspiracy” to “Macs/PC suck.”
Its 2003 people. Its kinda done. A lot. To death. No, no really.
-K