Apple provided testers and developers with a new pre-release seed of Mac OS X 10.3, code-named Panther. The company also seeded a new Jaguar build, Version 10.2.7. Apple also seeded build 7B20 of Mac OS X Server 10.3 to developers. The new build of Panther Server was posted as two installation CDs. Microsoft has started the next big Visual Studio release “Whidbey” Alpha program that’s expected to ship in 2004.
Beta Seeds: Panther, Panther Server, Visual Studio “Whidbey”
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
will a net .NET Framework come along with that?
Also, what new ‘features’ will included in VS?
Mac OS X keeps getting better and better!!!
Security patches and updates are still being released for 10.1. I don’t know anyone in their right mind that would want to run 10.0. If we had continued to use MacOSX Server 1.0 we can STILL get support for that.
I have found Apple’s support for their legacy hardware and OS to be good. They still ship and support systems with MacOS9 today.
The only 32 (and bit) bit operating system… which I guess kinda makes it 48bits… yaay!
Subby says it at. I forgot and too busy to google.
“I wonder after Panther is released, how long is Apple going to support Jaguar? M$ supported Window$ 95 for about 5 or 6 years. It doesn’t seem Apple is going to do that.”
Agreed. If anything, Apple will probably support the OS for 8 or 9 years.
When system 6 came out, Apple supported software written for it until Mac OS 8. (Approximately 8 years) Apple has supported software written for systems 7-9 for approximately another 8 years.
Considering the transition for 9 to 10 was greater than any other OS transition in Apple’s history, I would suspect that the company will support software written for the OS for at least a similar amount of time… if not greater.
“I forgot and too busy to google.”
Last thing that I remember reading is that Panther is due in November
Is ‘seeding’ the same as an alpha release or what?
“Why does Apple call it ‘seeding’??”
It’s not just Apple.
“Is ‘seeding’ the same as an alpha release or what?”
It can if an OS is very imature, but there have been several releases of Panther and OS X server that have already been distributed. So, in this case the word “seeded” can be interchangably used with the word “distributed”.
This is starting to look like service packs for windows. 10.2.5. then 10.3? why not 10.4, make it similar to sp4 for win2k. I hope this will be faster then 10.2, 10.2 was rather slow on g3 hardware. I’d give 10.3 a try if it were fast on g3 600
“This is starting to look like service packs for windows. 10.2.5. then 10.3?”
Actually, the latest release of OS X is 10.2.6, and there will be a 10.2.7 later this month with the release of G5 hardware.
You are right, Apple releases minor updates not unlike service packs for Windows.
The reason why the latest update (service pack) isn’t being called 10.3 is because that version number is reserved for a major update (Panther). Unlike Microsoft, Apple makes whole point releases significant updates andreligates its .x.x releases to bug fixes and minor updates. Panther will be a major update and will therefor be given whole point status in 10.3.
“I hope this will be faster then 10.2”
I’ve been using the Panther preview release and it is significantly faster than 10.2 (which is already very fast)
“10.2 was rather slow on g3 hardware.”
Jaguar (10.2) seemed slow because you didn’t have a supported graphics card. Most G3 hardware doesn’t have a supported graphics card that Jaguar requires with Quartz Extreme.
“I’d give 10.3 a try if it were fast on g3 600”
I’ve heard many reports that Panther will be significantly faster than previous OS X releases even on older G3 hardware.
Why would you put these two story’s together? they have nothing to do with each other, and just clutter up comments. Some people should really try using their brain some time.
“The company also seeded a new Jaguar build, Version 10.2.7”
They did? Someone just mentioned it’s not out til the G5 is out. That, and I can’t seem to find any info on it. I’m kinda new to Mac, though. Anyone know more?
>>>”The company also seeded a new Jaguar build, Version 10.2.7″<<<
“They did? Someone just mentioned it’s not out til the G5 is out.”
“Seeded” typically means that the update was distributed to developers. I’m sure thats what it means in this case, as it hasn’t yet been distributed to consumers yet.
“I can’t seem to find any info on it. I’m kinda new to Mac, though. Anyone know more?”
OS X 10.2.7 is code-named Smeagol and is said to be referred to within internal Apple documents as “precious” or “my precious”.
Here’s a bit of information that might help: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/31116.html
Awesome! Very straight forward answers. Hard to come by, sometimes. Thanks!
Speaking of the G5, when will that be available? The Apple store gives an estimate of 4-6 weeks. Unfortunately, Apple, like other companies, has developed this pattern of announcing products only to be followed by months of waiting by consumers. I hope Apple keeps its promise of the G5 being the first 64-bit personal computer, it might be somewhat embarrassing if the 64-bit Opterion systems were shipping first.
I now return you to your previously scheduled Panther drivel.
“Speaking of the G5, when will that be available? The Apple store gives an estimate of 4-6 weeks.”
That estimate was a blanket statement placed there about 3 weeks ago. I better judge of ship dates is to look at the estimated ship time of an individual that has already placed an order. I purchased a G5 shortly after they were intro’d. My estimated sip date is August 28th. (Others have said their estimated ship dates are as late as September 2).
“Unfortunately, Apple, like other companies, has developed this pattern of announcing products only to be followed by months of waiting by consumers.”
A month and a half is certinly acceptable in my book. Considering the fact that we have only 3 more weeks left, its not too bad at all IMHO.
“I hope Apple keeps its promise of the G5 being the first 64-bit personal computer, it might be somewhat embarrassing if the 64-bit Opterion systems were shipping first.”
Even if Apple ships the G5 after the Opteron, they will still have kept their promise, as the Opteron is not a consumer desktop system like the G5 is. This fast is compounded by the fact that the Opteron wont have a an OS that can run 64bit applications like the G5 will (Panther may not be 100% 64 bit, but its applications written to take advantage of 64 bit technology will be able to fully utilized by the OS.
“I now return you to your previously scheduled Panther drivel.”
drivel?
This fast is compounded by the fact that the Opteron wont have a an OS that can run 64bit applications like the G5 will (Panther may not be 100% 64 bit, but its applications written to take advantage of 64 bit technology will be able to fully utilized by the OS.
Umm… Linux, FreeBSD and NetBSD all have amd64 ports…
“Umm… Linux, FreeBSD and NetBSD all have amd64 ports…”
and are not consumer operating systems
Yes, I understand that some are using them as consumer OSes, but no, they are not consumer OSes
yup i agree OS X keeps getting better and better!!
Curious…
Why is nobody talking about the next big Visual Studio release that Microsoft has started and this new link eludes to?
Do people care that much more about Apple or do people care that much less about Microsoft’s “next big Visual Studio release”?
I think it’s just a little out of favor at a place like OS News. Apple’s very popular around here. Even BeOS is remarkably popular. Windows… is kinda… one of the other things available. A new Visual Studio is probably seen in terms of “eh, the old one’s fine, and this one’s alpha. What’s so great about that?” as opposed to news directly related to an OS, such as news of OS X 10.2.7 and 10.3. A lot of people here use Macs, and not many people here use Visual Studio (comparatively).
Then again, I guess I am interested in what might be new about VS.
“I think it’s just a little out of favor at a place like OS News. Apple’s very popular around here. Even BeOS is remarkably popular. Windows… is kinda… one of the other things available.”
Considering the fact that a PC from a major name brand manufacturer is dificult to purchase without Windows already-pre-installed, perhaps this lack of affection for Windows is not uncommon even outside of OS News as well. Users didn’t choose Windows, it chose them.
“A lot of people here use Macs, and not many people here use Visual Studio (comparatively).”
Its interesting to observe community forums which target multi-platform enviornments, (IE… individuals which choose their preferred platform rather than it being chosen for them), rarely do you find individuals that are passionate about Windows. However, there are large amounts of people that are passionate about alternative systems.
If my experiences are like other peoples that have observed this trend, it would seem that more and more people prefer Apple and Macintosh systems than others.
I’m a mac user at home and have windows xp at work. However, I don’t think Apple is the first one to release a 64 bit OS. Some other guys talked about Linux, FreeBSD and NetBSD already, but I also found a version of windows 64 bit.
http://www.microsoft.com/WindowsXP/64bit/evaluation/overview.asp
The only thing Apple is ahead would be the 64 bit processor in a Desktop machine. Apple just has the right combo. Package deal
My 2 canadian cents.
Exactly why are they not consumer OS’s. What its the criteria you place on an OS before it can be considered a Consumer Operating System. Consumers buy Linux and BSD OS’s which seems to make them consumer OS.
For that matter why is an Opteron system not a “consumer desktop system”? The Opteron is designed for both servers and Workstations and a “Desktop system” is nothing more than a workstation. So if a consumer buys one and uses it as a desktop system then it seems to me that it is a Consumer Desktop System.
Are the distinctions that if Linux etc were Consumer OS’s and Opterons PC’s “Consumer Desktop systems” then the G5 would then NOT be the first 64 bit Desktop so they cannot be Consumer OS’s/Desktop Systems?
“I don’t think Apple is the first one to release a 64 bit OS. Some other guys talked about Linux, FreeBSD and NetBSD already, but I also found a version of windows 64 bit.
” rel=”nofollow”>http://www.microsoft.com/WindowsXP/64bit/evaluation/overview.asp”
You are correct, Apple hasn’t released the first 64 bit OS, nor have they released the first 64bit hardware. Then again, they never claimed to.
What they did claim was that the G5 is the worlds first 64bit personal computer. That is correct. Linux, FreeBSD and NetBSD (while all wonderful OSes, they are not yet personal computer or consumer OSes. Additionally, Microsoft does not make a consumer version of its XP operating system that is 64 bit. However, they do have a Windows XP Pro (not for consumers) which is 64bit.
“The only thing Apple is ahead would be the 64 bit processor in a Desktop machine.”
Apple is ahead in many ways… but if we’re talking specifically about 64bit technology, Apple is (like you said) ahead as far as having the 64 bit processor in a Desktop machine and the they will have an OS will be able to run 64 bit applications on that machine when it ships.
“Exactly why are they not consumer OS’s. What its the criteria you place on an OS before it can be considered a Consumer Operating System.”
In Microsoft’s case, a 64bit OS is that when a company declares it as such… Microsoft declares its 64 bit OS as a professional OS not a consumer OS. In the case of Linux and the BSDs, a consumer OS can be declared when it is easily installed, easily maintained and very user friendly.
“Consumers buy Linux and BSD OS’s which seems to make them consumer OS.”
My friend hollowed out the back seat of his VW Bug (took out the seats and such) and converted the back side of the vehicle into a flatbed. Does this make his vehicle a flatbed pickup since thats what he uses it for now?
“For that matter why is an Opteron system not a “consumer desktop system”?”
Well, for starters, AMD refers top it as a workstation or server processor as opposed to a desktop processor (unlike its other processors)
“a “Desktop system” is nothing more than a workstation.”
Most would disagree
“So if a consumer buys one and uses it as a desktop system then it seems to me that it is a Consumer Desktop System.”
And you are among the few that might also refer to my friends VW (mentioned above) as a flatbed truck
“Are the distinctions that if Linux etc were Consumer OS’s and Opterons PC’s “Consumer Desktop systems” then the G5 would then NOT be the first 64 bit Desktop so they cannot be Consumer OS’s/Desktop Systems?”
Yes, but because AMD refers to its Opteron chip as a workstation and server processor and because the OSes you mentioned are not consumer operating systems (even though some may use them as such) computers bearing this hardware and software can not be declared a 64bit personal computer which makes Apple statement correct.
This one has OS X, even the icon, and Eugenia throws in info about MS Visual Studio.
This website is a joke…
Well, for starters, AMD refers top it as a workstation or server processor as opposed to a desktop processor (unlike its other processors)
Right. The Athlon64 is the first slated desktop chip.
Yes, but because AMD refers to its Opteron chip as a workstation and server processor and because the OSes you mentioned are not consumer operating systems (even though some may use them as such) computers bearing this hardware and software can not be declared a 64bit personal computer which makes Apple statement correct.
Windows XP Pro 32-bit is a consumer OS. I can buy it retail anywhere. The 64-bit version of XP is not a consumer OS yet. You can only purchase it with a new system.
It could go either way right now. If AMD launches the Athlon64 in time and Windows XP is available for it then apple will have lost the race to market with a 64-bit desktop. If Apple ships the G5 with a 32-bit OS they haven’t really delivered the world’s first 64-bit desktop either.
The race is still on from what I can see. Until a company ships a desktop system that is 64-bit with an OS that is 64-bit capable then the crown is still up for grabs. Apple hasn’t stated the full extent of when a 64-bit version of OS X will ship (unless I missed something?).
If they are talking November for 64-bit OS X (which I’ve heard) than AMD is very much in the running. Windows XP 64-bit is in beta right now with Opteron and Athlon64 support.
One thing I still have not been able to find out is: With MacOS10.3 Can a single application allocate more then 4GB of ram and access all that ram at the same time(That is widtout using bank switching/bridging or what ever they call it)?
And the same thing with files: What happend if an application memmorymap a 3GB file, and then try to allocate 3GB ram?
Martin Tilsted
“Right. The Athlon64 is the first slated desktop chip.”
You are correct about this. And yet its scheduled release date will not negate Apple’s claims. Additionally, there is no consumer operating system that will run 64 bit applications on it.
“Windows XP Pro 32-bit is a consumer OS. I can buy it retail anywhere. The 64-bit version of XP is not a consumer OS yet. You can only purchase it with a new system.
Both of which does not negate Apple’s claim.
“It could go either way right now. If AMD launches the Athlon64 in time and Windows XP is available for it then apple will have lost the race to market with a 64-bit desktop.”
When you say “in time” i think you mean ahead of schedule because (at last check) the scheduled release data of the Athlon64 chip is further out than the release data of the G5.
Second, neither company will have “lost the race to market” if they ship within a few months of each other. However, one of the two companies will loose the race with regard to the race to being first in the market.
“If Apple ships the G5 with a 32-bit OS they haven’t really delivered the world’s first 64-bit desktop either.”
Sure they have. A 64bit desktop is regarded as a computer with a 64bit chip within it, that has a consumer OS that can run 64bit applications. The G5 with 10.2.7 installed will be this exactly.
“The race is still on from what I can see. Until a company ships a desktop system that is 64-bit with an OS that is 64-bit capable then the crown is still up for grabs.”
I disagree. The OS simply needs to run on 64bit hardware and run 64bit applications.
“Apple hasn’t stated the full extent of when a 64-bit version of OS X will ship (unless I missed something?).”
a 64bit OS is an operating system that can run 64bit applications. Apple has been entierly fourthcoming about this. The company has said that it will ship such a product at the end of this month.
“One thing I still have not been able to find out is: With MacOS10.3 Can a single application allocate more then 4GB of ram and access all that ram at the same time(That is widtout using bank switching/bridging or what ever they call it)?
Yes, as will Apple’s Mac OS 10.2.7 that will ship at the end of this month with the G5.
http://www.apple.com/powermac/architecture.html
“And the same thing with files: What happend if an application memmorymap a 3GB file, and then try to allocate 3GB ram?”
I think its a little early to be determining specifics like that. We wont know for sure for another 3 weeks.
To comment 32:
But does MacOS 10.3 run 64bit applications?
(And my definition of a 64bit application is one in which
the usefull size of a pointer is 64bit).
If the answer is yes, i would be glad to any link that describe this feature.
If you by 64bit application just meen an application that handle 64bit data native, then my comment is that we have had theese for some time. mmx,sse,sse2,altivec and almost any fpu does atleast 64bit math natively.
Noware at
http://www.apple.com/powermac/architecture.html do they say anything about applications using more then 4GB of ram widthout a bridge. And it is worth to notice that the photoshop port to G5 which apple have used in their benchmark only use 32bit pointers and then use the hardware bridge(Similary to the hack the Xeon use to allow more then 4GB ram) to map which part of the 8GB ram it see.
32-bit PCs can only use 4GB of memory. Any more than that requires the use of virtual memory on the hard drive, which is 40 times slower than using RAM. The new Power Mac G5 can offer up to 8GB of RAM thanks to the 64-bit G5.
To repeat: 40 times faster. Theoretically, the 64-bit data paths let the Power PC G5 access up to 4 terabytes of physical memory. (Impractical now, maybe, but the Power PC G5 architecture allows for plenty of growth well into the future.)
Try this URL:
http://www.apple.com/g5processor/
The problem is that Apple likes to define things on its own terms, always.
They change the definition of 64-Bit Personal Computer to only encompass that which they produce. Linux doesn’t count, because it’s not a consumer OS. XP Pro doesn’t count because you can only get it with new systems. etc, etc.
The truth is, that the G5 is what it is. Others have come before it and have been real 64 bit machines with real 64 bit OS’s. No big deal. The G5 is almost 64 bit now, and will be someday in the next few years.
Same with the Opteron, and maybe even the Itanium.
It’s all marketing BS. The truth remains, Apple makes nice expensive machines, just like BMW or Porsche. Sure you can get a cheaper faster car and a cheaper more powerful car, but it won’t be a Porsche of a BMW.
For some reason Apple Zealots (I’m pointing at you 12.105.181.—) like to pretend that Apple makes faster, better cheaper computers than you can find elsewhere, but that’s not reality.
This link http://www.apple.com/g5processor/ just say that the processor can run with 64bit pointers. The question is: Does apple have an os to support that?
And to comment 36: The intel Xeon can address upto 32GB of ram, and there actuelly exists motherboards that support that much ram. If a single task want more then 3-4GB it will have to use some special code(An ugly hack, similary to
the segment registers) to specify which part of the ram it want to use. I know that apple offer a similary hack(They Called it a bridge) but I have not found any information
which describe the ability to use more then 4GB ram directly.
Martin
You are correct about this. And yet its scheduled release date will not negate Apple’s claims. Additionally, there is no consumer operating system that will run 64 bit applications on it.
Scheduled release and actual release are 2 different things. I’ll believe it when I see it. Until I see a G5 with an OS that can utilize a 64-bit processor I won’t buy that apple is the first with a 64-bit desktop.
Both of which does not negate Apple’s claim.
I was agreeing with you in case you are a bit slow to notice.
When you say “in time” i think you mean ahead of schedule because (at last check) the scheduled release data of the Athlon64 chip is further out than the release data of the G5.
Just as you say “scheduled release” I assume you mean “on time” because at last check companies don’t always make release dates. I’m not saying that will happen with apple in this case, but its what I’ve come to expect from the industry in general.
Sure they have. A 64bit desktop is regarded as a computer with a 64bit chip within it, that has a consumer OS that can run 64bit applications. The G5 with 10.2.7 installed will be this exactly.
Again I was agreeing with you. Open your eyes. What else would I be talking about ? If 10.2.7 can utilize a 64-bit processor I’d say they are there.
I disagree. The OS simply needs to run on 64bit hardware and run 64bit applications.
NO offense but you are dense. What did I post ? I posted that “until a company releases a 64-bit processor with an OS that is 64-bit capable” – read before you REPLY next time.
a 64bit OS is an operating system that can run 64bit applications.
Basically you didn’t grasp jack shit of what I posted. Thats obvious in the fact that you think I need an explaination of what a 64-bit Operating System is.
Apple has been entierly fourthcoming about this. The company has said that it will ship such a product at the end of this month.
Good. Thats news I didn’t hear. !
Anonymous (IP: 12.105.181.—):
32-bit PCs can only use 4GB of memory. Any more than that requires the use of virtual memory …
The 4GB limit of 32-bit addressing includes[/i] virtual memory. If you put 4GB of RAM in a computer running WinXP (32-bit w/o PAE) or Mac OSX 10.2.6, virtual memory won’t give you any more addressable memory, slower or not.
The speed advantage of 64-bit in large-data applications is more than just about virtual memory use. These apps now have to break up their data into smaller chunks and work on those – this overhead can be quite significant, depending on the app of course.
Sorry, put a [/i] where I should have used a [/b]. Can someone fix it?
To comment 41:
The 32-bit limit of the x86 chip make it imposible to have more then 4GB virtual memory, that is correct. But my point is that macos 1.2.7 will have the same problem. It’s application wil also only have 32bit virtual memmory. The real question I ask is: Will panther(Os 10.3) allow application to use a 64bit virtual memmory?.
And even with 32bit virtual memmory you can actuelly have more then 4GB ram. Intel does this with PAE and Apple with something they call a bridge. Both of theese methods are
cumbersome, ugly hacks.
A simple explanation of how PAE work is:
PAE does work by allowing a program to map a single virtual address to several physical addresses. It then use the PAE register to switch between theese mappings.
“The problem is that Apple likes to define things on its own terms, always.”
I don’t understand. Apple plays by the same rules every other PC manufacturer does. Each company touts their strengths. Apple is no different. That does not negate what Apple says.
“They change the definition of 64-Bit Personal Computer to only encompass that which they produce.”
Are you suggesting that 64-bit should instead be defined by the technologies that Intel AMD produces?
I don’t know what the argument is. The G5 employs a true 64bit chip and the OS can run 64 bit applications and take advantage of 64bit capabilities in said applications.
“The truth is, that the G5 is what it is. Others have come before it and have been real 64 bit machines with real 64 bit OS’s. No big deal.”
Apple isn’t negating 64 bit chips that came before it. They are not saying they are the first 64 bit solution. They are sying that they have the first 64bit desktop computer… which is true.
“The G5 is almost 64 bit now, and will be someday in the next few years.”
The G5 is 100% 64 bit and the OS can run 64bit applications at 100%. What’s the argument again?
“Same with the Opteron, and maybe even the Itanium.”
Yes, but there isn’t a consumer OS for these computers, so it doesn’t negate Apple’s claim.
“Apple makes nice expensive machines, just like BMW or Porsche.”
Expensive? Hardly! Apple’s computers are slightly more expensive, the same price, slightly less or significantly less than PCs equipped with the exact same (or as close as possible) hardware and software as that can be had with a Mac.
The difference is that the PC allows you to buy less and therefore pay less, but that does not make the Mac more expensive. it just makes the PC more configurable.
“For some reason Apple Zealots (I’m pointing at you 12.105.181.—)”
I’m not a zealot at all.
“like to pretend that Apple makes faster, better cheaper computers than you can find elsewhere, but that’s not reality.”
you are wrong. Apple’s computers are slightly more expensive, the same price, slightly less or significantly less than PCs equipped with the exact same (or as close as possible) hardware and software as that can be had with a Mac.
The difference is that the PC allows you to buy less and therefore pay less, but that does not make the Mac more expensive. it just makes the PC more configurable.
“This link http://www.apple.com/g5processor/ just say that the processor can run with 64bit pointers. The question is: Does apple have an os to support that?”
According to a recent statement made by Steve Jobswiack, Apple will with OS X 10.2.7.
“I don’t understand. Apple plays by the same rules every other PC manufacturer does. Each company touts their strengths. Apple is no different. That does not negate what Apple says.
I don’t know what the argument is. The G5 employs a true 64bit chip and the OS can run 64 bit applications and take advantage of 64bit capabilities in said applications.
Apple isn’t negating 64 bit chips that came before it. They are not saying they are the first 64 bit solution. They are sying that they have the first 64bit desktop computer… which is true.
The G5 is only the first 64Bit desktop computer if you restrict the definition so that it only applies to Apple. People can go out and buy Opterons with XP. People can run Mandrake (which is a consumer version of Linux) on Opterons.
Apple is making a BS marketing claim, and you are buying it. That’s fine. It’s a great computer, it’s just not what they claim. It’s not the first 64Bit desktop computer as most people would come to understand that term.
The problem is that Apple uses very general terms like “desktop computer” and then restricts that definition so that they only apply it to a small set of computers. Pretty soon they’ll say that the other computers don’t count because they don’t have firewire or some other feature. It’s marketing BS. Weak minds fall for it. Zealots buy into it.
The G5 is 100% 64 bit and the OS can run 64bit applications at 100%. What’s the argument again?
I call BS on this one. Panther won’t be 64 bit, and won’t allow applications to use a 64 bit address space. To say otherwise is a complete lie. Nothing new for you, MacZealot.
Expensive? Hardly! Apple’s computers are slightly more expensive, the same price, slightly less or significantly less than PCs equipped with the exact same (or as close as possible) hardware and software as that can be had with a Mac.
The difference is that the PC allows you to buy less and therefore pay less, but that does not make the Mac more expensive. it just makes the PC more configurable.
Here we go with this dross again. You’ve never demonstrated that Apple can produce a computer that can compete feature wise in the “desktop market” which as I define it consists of computers between $1000 and $2000. Any computer in that price range that Apple makes can be smoked by a Dell which will also be more featureful.
It’s not only with PC’s that you can buy less and pay less. It’s that you can buy less and get more. With Apple, like with Porshce and BMW, you are paying for “engineering” and quality, not for raw speed.
Do you have a link to Steve saying that?
Doing a new google search I found
http://oit.utk.edu/macvolplace/oldnews/200306.php
And it does say tha Panther(10.3) will allow applications
to use 64bit pointers. Still no referance to anyware that Apple, so it might be wrong (Look after Mac G5’s 64-bit hardware and current 32-bit apps).
Martin who would like to memmory map his harddisk :}
I think it’s just a little out of favor at a place like OS News. Apple’s very popular around here. Even BeOS is remarkably popular. Windows… is kinda… one of the other things available.
Also, these have a more direct impact on the end user than development tools by Microsoft. People do get excited about BeOS and MacOS, not because they’re “special” but because when they are delivered to the consumer, they either live up to the expectations or beat them.
So far we have seen a large number of people here praise the heck out of MacOS X’s improvements in terms of responsiveness and features.
Why has MacOS X been praised? its the first time a consumer operating system has ever been based around an Unix core with a good UI sitting on top. Microsoft could do that but it would first have to take back all their anti-UNIX rants they have done over the last 15 years.
A new Visual Studio is probably seen in terms of “eh, the old one’s fine, and this one’s alpha. What’s so great about that?”
Considering that there isn’t anything relatively revolutionary for the typical developer, the only people who will really notice the difference are the buzz word compliant coders of the world who *have to have* the latest and greatest of everything regardless of whether it actually improves the end product.
as opposed to news directly related to an OS, such as news of OS X 10.2.7 and 10.3. A lot of people here use Macs, and not many people here use Visual Studio (comparatively).
Then again, I guess I am interested in what might be new about VS.
VS is great and I have used it, but it isn’t anything to write home about. If Microsoft said tomorrow they were to kill of VB and there would be only C#, C and C++, then I am sure it would get headlines. Oh, btw, who on earth is still using VB when C# is even easier?
It could go either way right now. If AMD launches the Athlon64 in time and Windows XP is available for it then apple will have lost the race to market with a 64-bit desktop. If Apple ships the G5 with a 32-bit OS they haven’t really delivered the world’s first 64-bit desktop either.
The race is still on from what I can see. Until a company ships a desktop system that is 64-bit with an OS that is 64-bit capable then the crown is still up for grabs. Apple hasn’t stated the full extent of when a 64-bit version of OS X will ship (unless I missed something?).
If they are talking November for 64-bit OS X (which I’ve heard) than AMD is very much in the running. Windows XP 64-bit is in beta right now with Opteron and Athlon64 support.
You are actually assuming that Windows XP will have a 64bit line, which it won’t. Windows XP SP2 will bring AMD64 enhancements BUT it won’t be 64bit, it will be like MacOS X, a hybrid.
Considering that most “64bit operating systems” are mearly hybrids, I really don’t understand why people keep flogging the dead horse over and over and over again.
“The G5 is only the first 64Bit desktop computer if you restrict the definition so that it only applies to Apple. People can go out and buy Opterons with XP. People can run Mandrake (which is a consumer version of Linux) on Opterons.”
They certainly can, but these are not desktop operating systems which (as said before) doesn’t negate Apple’s claim.
“Apple is making a BS marketing claim, and you are buying it.”
No they aren’t nor did I.
“It’s a great computer, it’s just not what they claim.”
its a great computer. Its exactly what they claim.
“It’s not the first 64Bit desktop computer as most people would come to understand that term.”
it IS the first 64Bit desktop computer as most people would come to understand that term.
“The problem is that Apple uses very general terms like “desktop computer” and then restricts that definition so that they only apply it to a small set of computers.”
The desktop computer market is small?
“Pretty soon they’ll say that the other computers don’t count because they don’t have firewire or some other feature.”
If Firewire were a requirement of 64bits, it would be correct, but its not, so they would never say such a thing. Your argument is trivial. Apple is simply saying that they have the first 64bit hardware with an OS that also runs 64bit applications. I don;t understand why you’re trying to water that down.
“It’s marketing BS. Weak minds fall for it. Zealots buy into it.”
If thats so, then any claim, no matter how valid can be declared as marketing BS. Again, Apple is simply saying that they have the first 64bit hardware with an OS that also runs 64bit applications. I don;t understand why you’re trying to water that down.
“Panther won’t be 64 bit, and won’t allow applications to use a 64 bit address space.”
You are wrong with that statement. To be correct you should have said, Panther will be able to run 64 bit applications and will allow applications to utilize a 64 bit address space
“To say otherwise is a complete lie.”
No, that is false.
“Nothing new for you, MacZealot.”
I don;t recall seeing any Mac zealots on this board… and I am not one so i don;t know who you’re addressing. I haven;t lied about anything.
“You’ve never demonstrated that Apple can produce a computer that can compete feature wise in the “desktop market” which as I define it consists of computers between $1000 and $2000.”
And you have not demonstrated that a PC is significantly less expensive than a Mac of similar specs. I have said all along that a PC is more configurable and allows you to buy less and therefore pay less. So, who’s the one being misleading now?
“Any computer in that price range that Apple makes can be smoked by a Dell which will also be more featureful.”
In the $1,000 to $1,750 range yes, the PC’s speed will be faster but that PC will offer you significantly less. Machines compared in the $1,750+ range, the Mac will be less expensive than a comparably equipped PC and will be significantly faster.
“It’s not only with PC’s that you can buy less and pay less. It’s that you can buy less and get more.”
That statement is false.
“With Apple, like with Porshce and BMW, you are paying for “engineering” and quality, not for raw speed.”
That may have been true in the past, but Apple’s prices are comparable now. Yes, you still get the quality, but you get it for the same price or less than a PC of similar specs.
Do you have a link to Steve saying that?”
It wasn’t jobs it was Jobswiack (spelling)
(Just making that clear in case there was a mis-understanding)
I’ll get it when i have a second, but I’m busy fending off all the forum trolls
“You are actually assuming that Windows XP will have a 64bit line, which it won’t. Windows XP SP2 will bring AMD64 enhancements BUT it won’t be 64bit, it will be like MacOS X, a hybrid.”
This is false. There are already native 64-bit versions of Windows 2000 and XP for Itanium. The AMD64 version currently in beta is 64-bit native. The .NET runtimes for Whidbey will have 32 and 64-bit versions.
Windows is (with Itanium)and will be (with AMD64) a 64-bit
native platform which will also be capable of running 32-bit apps through the Windows on Windows layer much like 32-bit NT is a native 32-bit OS, but uses WOW to run 16-bit apps.
Again, Apple is simply saying that they have the first 64bit hardware with an OS that also runs 64bit applications.
Wrong. If that’s what they were saying than they’d be lying. Sun has been selling 64bit OS’s on 64bit hardware for years. Plenty of people have. Please be more specific.
You want the benefit of the general statement, just like Apple, but you can’t have it. Apple’s claim is only true if severely restricted.
Apple does this in other places too. See here: http://www.apple.com/g5processor/
It says that the G5 is the world’s most advanced processor. That is nonsensical. What does advanced mean? I’d take the Power4 over a g5 any day of the week. Apple marketing loves to play with words. I don’t buy it. Most people don’t either. MacZealots (like 12.105.181) do believe it, and try to push it wherever they can.
In the $1,000 to $1,750 range yes, the PC’s speed will be faster but that PC will offer you significantly less. Machines compared in the $1,750+ range, the Mac will be less expensive than a comparably equipped PC and will be significantly faster.
Please produce a $2000 Mac with an LCD monitor that is “significantly faster” than a PC. I’d love to see it. Of course, no such computer exists. The 17 inch iMac is cool but will get smoked by a Dell Dimension 8300 and will cost a few hundred more.
I hope that Apple is paying you good money to spread FUD for them.
the link got messed up due to the extraneous
go here: http://www.apple.com/g5processor/
While I look forward to a bit of a speed boost with Panther, the thing I’m looking forward to most is better X11 integration. So, I have a question for testers: How well do X11 apps integrate in Panther?
I guess DnD would be too much to ask (though gtk and Qt apps DnD okay, so I’m ever hopeful) but how about proper recognition by the dock? I want OSX to treat X apps just like native apps, one dock item per running app. I’d also like to just have X11 run in the background always, a background service like it does in QNX.
I don’t think this is too much to ask… If they pull this off I’ll happily shell out my hard earned coin, otherwise I’ll try to hold off…
LOL! Its nice to see PC users getting so defensive in a Mac article. Its so funny, why do you morons even invest in the time to write comments on stuff you know nothing about and being fixated on who is 64bit first and G5 not shipping and hoping it will never ship and BS like that. What else is Apple marketing suppose to do? Tell people that they have the slowest computers on the planet? Sorry a lot of companies lie in their marketing spiel, get used to it.
If you can read beyond the marketing congratulations, good for you. Pat yourself on the back, but from what I see in these posts it seems that people seek out some recognition.
Am I suppose to be impressed that you figured out something so obvious. Thats jut stupid.
Back to the topic. Can’t wait for Panther. Apple seems to be doing a lot of OS testing. Hopefully Panther will ship on DVD.
As unemployed Mac programmer, I have plenty of time to rag on Apple while I work on my LPI Linux certification. Although, sometimes I just like to be a prick.
“>>>Again, Apple is simply saying that they have the first 64bit hardware with an OS that also runs 64bit applications.”<<<
“Wrong. If that’s what they were saying than they’d be lying. Sun has been selling 64bit OS’s on 64bit hardware for years.”
Let me correct my first statement, …Apple is simply saying that they have the first 64bit desktop hardware with a desktop OS that also runs 64bit applications.
“Apple’s claim is only true if severely restricted.”
Assuming you consider “the desktop” restricted… then (and only then) do you have a point.
“It says that the G5 is the world’s most advanced processor. That is nonsensical. What does advanced mean?”
If you must cling to a statement that is “just marketing” then you can certainly have that one.
“Apple marketing loves to play with words. I don’t buy it. Most people don’t either.”
Yes, perhaps with the statement you mentioned above, (the world’s most advanced processor) but not, the first 64 desktop computer. Anyone that doesn’t “buy it” is just a “PC Zealot”
“MacZealots (like 12.105.181) do believe it, and try to push it wherever they can.
I’m not a zealot and I’m not trying to push anything anywhere.
“Please produce a $2000 Mac with an LCD monitor that is “significantly faster” than a PC. I’d love to see it.”
I like how you add the LCD monitor… (because we all know the LCD will make the computer go faster)
Please produce a $2000 PC sans monitor that is “significantly faster” than a Mac for the same price. I’d love to see it.”
“I hope that Apple is paying you good money to spread FUD for them.”
Apple doesn’t pay me anything, and I’m not spreading FUD…. although I AM correcting it.
“While I look forward to a bit of a speed boost with Panther, the thing I’m looking forward to most is better X11 integration. So, I have a question for testers: How well do X11 apps integrate in Panther?”
If you use Apple’s X11, they’re very very close to native cocoa and carbon apps
“I guess DnD would be too much to ask (though gtk and Qt apps DnD okay, so I’m ever hopeful) but how about proper recognition by the dock?
Drag and drop AND proper recognition in the dock are both supported
According to Apple: http://www.apple.com/macosx/x11/
“Native Aqua and X11 applications run side by side on the Mac OS X desktop. You can cut and paste between X11 and Aqua windows. You can minimise X11 windows to the Dock — even with the “Genie Effect”. You use the Aqua window controls to close, minimise, and zoom X11 windows. And of course, each X11 window comes with its own carefully rendered drop shadow. Experts may choose to replace the native Aqua window manager with their own familiar, standard X Window Manager.”
“I want OSX to treat X apps just like native apps, one dock item per running app. I’d also like to just have X11 run in the background always, a background service like it does in QNX.”
Check out http://www.apple.com/macosx/x11/
I think you’ll be impressed
[i]”I don’t think this is too much to ask… If they pull this off I’ll happily shell out my hard earned coin, otherwise I’ll try to hold off…”</i.
Break out that coin.
“LOL! Its nice to see PC users getting so defensive in a Mac article. Its so funny, why do you morons even invest in the time to write comments on stuff you know nothing about and being fixated on who is 64bit first and G5 not shipping and hoping it will never ship and BS like that. What else is Apple marketing suppose to do? Tell people that they have the slowest computers on the planet? Sorry a lot of companies lie in their marketing spiel, get used to it.”
It is funny to see the crazy reactions, but Apple is not lying with regard to being the first 64bit desktop computer.
“I have plenty of time to rag on Apple while I work on my LPI Linux certification. Although, sometimes I just like to be a prick.”
Apparently (judging by many of the posts on this board… many people, “just like to be a prick.”
Is the resizing fast?
This is starting to look like service packs for windows. 10.2.5. then 10.3? why not 10.4, make it similar to sp4 for win2k. I hope this will be faster then 10.2, 10.2 was rather slow on g3 hardware. I’d give 10.3 a try if it were fast on g3 600
We have a G4 400(?) Mhz cube at work that is running the developers preview of Panther just fine. I gather that there were a couple of glitches during the install though…but then again 10.3 is beta software.
“Is the resizing fast?”
Jaguar made the resizing issue a non issue with of quartz extreme. However, Panther makes it not only fast, but fast under intense situations.
“We have a G4 400(?) Mhz cube at work that is running the developers preview of Panther just fine. I gather that there were a couple of glitches during the install though…but then again 10.3 is beta software.”
The glitches you are experiencing are likely not the result of a bad install, but rather… the fact that the OS is still in beta.
I’ve experienced several annyong quarks from the Panther preview…. but nothing too daunting.
the line “A little more expensive, a little less expensive, and significantly less expensive” that keeps getting thrown in when comparing the mac vs pc pricing. It doesn’t make any sense to me.
You look at the bottom price, and based on that, for what you need to get the job done, you can say what’s expensive as compared to other computers.
So, for example, the commercial where the dad can’t get the digital camera to work, so she gets her Mac out, and bang! that ish is connected. Now, for that simple job, really, all you need is a baseline computer. A processor, and harddrive, cd rom, moniter, and usb slot, right? Now, for that job, the cheapest PC that could get it done would cost what if purchased new? $400, $500??? Sure, it’s a piece of trash, can’t run games, the moniter would suck, bad sound, etc… but for moving those pictures from that camera onto the computer, it gets the job done. You could probably write e-mail, surf the net, run word on the same thing, which I get the impression is what most people use their computers for.
Now, the mac, baseline, comes with a much better processor, better moniter, ram, superdrive, everything. It’s a tightly integrated package with all the bells and whistles and a nice OS too. However, if your tasks are exactly the same as the were on the PC, which was done on the PC just fine… then what benefit does all the other features have? Sure, it looks prettier on this 17″ lcd screen, and maybe word opens slightly faster, but really, what is gained?
Now, can someone tell me another example where having these extra features isn’t held against a price increase. I mean, Mercedes doesn’t really have anything that competes with the 12,000-18,000 range of consumer automobiles, but hey, it’s a tightly integrated package, and we can’t hold it accountable because it’s got more features, like brake monitering tech, an engine that would beat the shit out of the Hyundai, suspension, the whole works. SO would saying Mercedes makes cars that are “slightly more expensive, slightly less expensive, or considerably less expensive the Hyundai” simply because it ignores the low end market be a valid statement by that reasoning??? Sounds kind of silly to me.
I’m not saying there arn’t expensive PCs, or that, depending on the job a mac can’t be cheaper then a pc… I’m just saying, if you look at the baseline to do a job, PC will do it, and that’s why they are cheaper. To say, because it’s more configurable… yeah, that’s probably the biggest reason. But that doesn’t change the fact that, Computer X and Y both get said job done, comp x costs $500, and comp y costs $1500. Sure comp y looks and performs way better, but for the job, both get it done.
“the line “A little more expensive, a little less expensive, and significantly less expensive” that keeps getting thrown in when comparing the mac vs pc pricing. It doesn’t make any sense to me.
You look at the bottom price, and based on that, for what you need to get the job done, you can say what’s expensive as compared to other computers.”
Agreed. For those reasons, the PC employs a very unique advantage. It allows you to buy less and therefore pay less, but that does not make the PC less expensive. Rather, it makes it more configurable.
“So, for example, the commercial where the dad can’t get the digital camera to work, so she gets her Mac out, and bang! that ish is connected. Now, for that simple job, really, all you need is a baseline computer. A processor, and harddrive, cd rom, moniter, and usb slot, right? Now, for that job, the cheapest PC that could get it done would cost what if purchased new? $400, $500??? Sure, it’s a piece of trash, can’t run games, the moniter would suck, bad sound, etc… but for moving those pictures from that camera onto the computer, it gets the job done.”
This is very true. Individuals only wanting to swap photos from their camera to their computer and do very little else would be best suited by a $400 – $500 PC. Most consumers however want to do more with their computer and therefor will need a computer costing at least $800, but on average… closer to $1,300. At these price points, Apple’s computers do offer more which make them priced only slightly more, the same, or slightly less. (Significantly less only comes when you buy a G5 and compare it to a comparable PC)
“Now, can someone tell me another example where having these extra features isn’t held against a price increase. I mean, Mercedes doesn’t really have anything that competes with the 12,000-18,000 range of consumer automobiles, but hey, it’s a tightly integrated package, and we can’t hold it accountable because it’s got more features, like brake monitering tech, an engine that would beat the shit out of the Hyundai, suspension, the whole works. SO would saying Mercedes makes cars that are “slightly more expensive, slightly less expensive, or considerably less expensive the Hyundai” simply because it ignores the low end market be a valid statement by that reasoning??? Sounds kind of silly to me.”
The mercedes to Hyundai comparison is a little misleading. A better analogy with regard to cars would be if you wanted Air conditioning, or a cassette deck or Automatic Windows or Locks are any combination of the following. Apple may force you to buy the cassette deck while PC’s allow you to not buy it.
Apple’s quality allow it to remain an appropriate comparitor to the mercedes but its price is like that of the average econo car PC with miscelanious add-ons.
“Depending on the job a mac can’t be cheaper then a pc…”
I’m assuming that can’t was supposed to be a can… because a Mac (in many cases) is less expensive than a comparably equipped PC.
“I’m just saying, if you look at the baseline to do a job, PC will do it, and that’s why they are cheaper.”
The “cheaper” comment is misleading as it implies that a comparably equipped PC is cheaper. In most cases thats not the truth. The PC allows you to buy less and therefore pay less. That does not make it cheaper. instead, it makes it more configurable.
“To say, because it’s more configurable… yeah, that’s probably the biggest reason. But that doesn’t change the fact that, Computer X and Y both get said job done, comp x costs $500, and comp y costs $1500.”
Assuming we’re talking about Sub $800 computers… you have a point… but only because Apple doesn’t compete in those markets. For everything else, Apple will sell you an appropriately equipped computer that will address the needs of any individual in any price point.
That instead of this being a discussion about MacOS and Macs in general we have the PC fanboys out in full force.
1) It is Mac, NOT MAC. MAC stands for Media Access Control, what has a feature in a network card have to do with an OS?
2) Please use proper tags. Bold and underlining is for EMPHASISING and Italic is for quoting
3) I own an eMac and have no desire, temptation or motivation to move back to a PC either now or in the future. I’ve seen the PC world and I don’t like it. You can argue with me, but I’ve made my decision and it is final.
4) An Apple computer is like buying a meal. Sure, you *COULD* go to McDonalds for a meal, *HOWEVER* you could pay an extra AUS$3-AUS$4 and buy a Kabab or a nice curry.
For me, I would much rather pay the extra AUS$3-AUS$4 for a nice meal than some processed, deep fried rubbish with zero nutritional value.
5) The software included with the run of the mill make is considerabily better in quality and quatity than the PC. Apple Works, iPhoto, iTunes, Quicktime, iDVD (on superdrive macs) etc etc. Compare that to the pultry Windows XP + Works bundle. Worse still, YOU DON’T GET THE CD’S FOR YOUR SOFTWARE so if your hard drive screws up, you are completely screwed over all.
“3) I own an eMac and have no desire, temptation or motivation to move back to a PC either now or in the future. I’ve seen the PC world and I don’t like it. You can argue with me, but I’ve made my decision and it is final.”
PC stands for Personal Computer. Your Mac is a Personal Computer. Your Mac is a PC. If you are going to harp over people’s use of the term ‘MAC’ and the proper use of Bold and Italicized text, get it straight yourself.
“4) An Apple computer is like buying a meal. Sure, you *COULD* go to McDonalds for a meal, *HOWEVER* you could pay an extra AUS$3-AUS$4 and buy a Kabab or a nice curry.
For me, I would much rather pay the extra AUS$3-AUS$4 for a nice meal than some processed, deep fried rubbish with zero nutritional value.”
No, I’m sorry, but your wrong here. A Mac is going to that fancy restaurant down the street. The meal for two people comes out at $150, but includes wonderful service, wonderful food, and a wonderful atmosphere. And you don’t have to clean anything up.
However, a Linux (as I am not a Windows user, so I don’t want to make that comparison) desktop machine is like a good home cooked meal. You can have anything and everything you want (as your not limited to a menu). Sure, you have to cook it yourself, and prepare everything yourself, but it is usually much better than any restaurant food in the end. However, when you are finished, you have to clean up the pots and pans, dishes and utensils, and clear the table.
“5) The software included with the run of the mill make is considerabily better in quality and quatity than the PC. Apple Works, iPhoto, iTunes, Quicktime, iDVD (on superdrive macs) etc etc. Compare that to the pultry Windows XP + Works bundle. Worse still, YOU DON’T GET THE CD’S FOR YOUR SOFTWARE so if your hard drive screws up, you are completely screwed over all”
Actually, when you considered what a Desktop Linux alternative offers, it’s much more than either of these. A complete office suite (thanks to Open Office), photo tools, media players, DVD players, games, a full featured email client, etc. And if your hard drive screws up, you can just reinstall with the CDs you have.
And considering that Linux installations these days are easier than using a DVD player (okay, this is merely from personal experience… but it was funny), this is really a non-issue.
I have used Mac, Linux, and Windows for actual production work. In my opinion, both Mac and Linux make wonderful choices for end users. The Mac has a leg up on Linux in that it is packaged nicely and is available where people buy computers. People don’t buy an OS, they go to buy a computer.
In Microsoft’s case, a 64bit OS is that when a company declares it as such… Microsoft declares its 64 bit OS as a professional OS not a consumer OS. In the case of Linux and the BSDs a consumer OS can be declared when it is easily installed, easily maintained and very user friendly.
So the rules are different depending on which OS you are talking about. If Microsoft says it is a 64bit OS even if it isn’t easy to use it’s a 64bit OS. In any case SuSE 64 bit, if it is anything like the 32 bit version, is every bit as easy to use as Windows.
My friend hollowed out the back seat of his VW Bug (took out the seats and such) and converted the back side of the vehicle into a flatbed. Does this make his vehicle a flatbed pickup since thats what he uses it for now?
Well that is pretty much what Apple did with the G5, they took a Server CPU and converted it for use with Desktops. Besides AMD is not a PC builder as Apple is and if a company like Dell or HP designed a desktop system around an Opteron it would be no Different than Apple Designing around the G5. You can Split hairs all you want but a CPU is a CPU no matter what use you put it to, it’s the complete design of the PC and the use it is put to that specifies the function.
Well, for starters, AMD refers top it as a workstation or server processor as opposed to a desktop processor (unlike its other processors)
See previous.
Most would disagree
I don’t think so
Yes, but because AMD refers to its Opteron chip as a workstation and server processor and because the OSes you mentioned are not consumer operating systems (even though some may use them as such) computers bearing this hardware and software can not be declared a 64bit personal computer which makes Apple statement correct.
Yet Apple can declare the G5 as a Desktop PC, a Workstation and a Server? Again AMD is not a PC manufacturer and it’s the use the CPU is put to that matters. Who decides what you can declare a PC as besides the person who builds it? If I build a PC based on the Opteron and say it’s a desktop then that is what it is. If you want to limit your statement to Major Manufacture then the G5 may be the first PC with a 64 bit processor but it definitely will not be the first fully 64bit Desktop Computer as Panther is not a 64 bit OS. It is a 32 bit OS hacked to support 64bit addressing, so in the end it will be a Wintel PC which is the first to be Truely 64 bit even if you want to limit the discussion to Major Brands.
I am still waiting for any kind of documentation for the claim that MacOS 1.2.7 can run 64bit applications with 64bit pointers.
Martin Tilsted, who would like to nmap his entire harddisk.
PC stands for Personal Computer. Your Mac is a Personal Computer. Your Mac is a PC. If you are going to harp over people’s use of the term ‘MAC’ and the proper use of Bold and Italicized text, get it straight yourself.
Ok, if you are into anal-retention, it isn’t a PC, it is called an “IBM-Compatible Computer” OR “x86 based computer”. Is that analy retentive enough for you?
No, I’m sorry, but your wrong here. A Mac is going to that fancy restaurant down the street. The meal for two people comes out at $150, but includes wonderful service, wonderful food, and a wonderful atmosphere. And you don’t have to clean anything up.
I would hardly call a computer valued at AUS$1899 comparable to a high class meal.
However, a Linux (as I am not a Windows user, so I don’t want to make that comparison) desktop machine is like a good home cooked meal. You can have anything and everything you want (as your not limited to a menu). Sure, you have to cook it yourself, and prepare everything yourself, but it is usually much better than any restaurant food in the end. However, when you are finished, you have to clean up the pots and pans, dishes and utensils, and clear the table.
I am comparing fast food. If Linux is taken into the picture, Linux is like Subway, you can chose your bread, fillings etc etc and heck, if you want, you can get it in a combo with other stuff (aka a distribution).
Again, Microsoft is mass produced garbage. It maybe popular but it isn’t the superior product.
What would you rather have, a greasy burger for McDonalds or a nice, fresh Subway filled roll with everything on it?
Actually, when you considered what a Desktop Linux alternative offers, it’s much more than either of these. A complete office suite (thanks to Open Office), photo tools, media players, DVD players, games, a full featured email client, etc. And if your hard drive screws up, you can just reinstall with the CDs you have.
And considering that Linux installations these days are easier than using a DVD player (okay, this is merely from personal experience… but it was funny), this is really a non-issue.
I have used Mac, Linux, and Windows for actual production work. In my opinion, both Mac and Linux make wonderful choices for end users. The Mac has a leg up on Linux in that it is packaged nicely and is available where people buy computers. People don’t buy an OS, they go to buy a computer.
Linux *WOULD* be a nice solution *IF* it had the ISV support there, but it doesn’t. Until I can purchase the SAME applications I run on this Mac or of equal quality, why should I move? I am happy with 4D for my database, Office X for productivity and Mozilla/Safari for webbrowsing. Why should *I* change to suite the agenda of a few people suffering from the tall poppy syndrome.
“Ok, if you are into anal-retention, it isn’t a PC, it is called an “IBM-Compatible Computer” OR “x86 based computer”. Is that analy retentive enough for you?”
Well, no, I am not. That was your deparment when you went into anal-retention mode bitching and whining about people using MAC instead of Mac. I was merely implying that you were being anal-retentive for no good reason.
“I would hardly call a computer valued at AUS$1899 comparable to a high class meal.”
Well, then you entirely missed the point, and have no reading comprehension skills.
“What would you rather have, a greasy burger for McDonalds or a nice, fresh Subway filled roll with everything on it?”
Well, I thought that was pretty obvious in my comment, but I am a Linux user.
“Linux *WOULD* be a nice solution *IF* it had the ISV support there, but it doesn’t. Until I can purchase the SAME applications I run on this Mac or of equal quality, why should I move? I am happy with 4D for my database, Office X for productivity and Mozilla/Safari for webbrowsing. Why should *I* change to suite the agenda of a few people suffering from the tall poppy syndrome.”
Hrm? I don’t know why *you* should change. I never suggest *you* should change. Any suggestion that you make saying that I suggested *you* should change is wrong. I always suggest that people choose what works for them, rather than pushing a solution down their throat (as you are suggesting that I am doing). Use what works for you. Me, I find that my Linux distrobution allows me to be more productive out of the box then both Windows and Mac currently offers. So I use it.
If you actually read what I wrote, you will see that I generally agreed with you on most parts, but for some reason, you fail to see that; instead assuming that I am bashing the fact that you are using a Mac, and that I am suggesting at every step that Linux is the one and only solution (which I am not).
Reading comprehension is a valuable skill, and you should look into it (though, you will probably misread this post as well, so don’t bother replying).
Agreed. For those reasons, the PC employs a very unique advantage. It allows you to buy less and therefore pay less, but that does not make the PC less expensive. Rather, it makes it more configurable.
Dude this logic makes absolutely NO SENSE. First you say it allows you to buy less and PAY LESS (cheaper right?) and then claim it dosen’t make the PC less expensive ?
You don’t make sense and I think you confuse yourself.
I’m assuming that can’t was supposed to be a can… because a Mac (in many cases) is less expensive than a comparably equipped PC.
Most would disagree. (sorry had to use one of your pathetic lines)
The PC allows you to buy less and therefore pay less.
HAHAHAHA! What does it mean if you pay less for something ? It means it was cheaper than something else right ?
That does not make it cheaper. instead, it makes it more configurable.
Read your previous sentance “therefore pay less”. What does that mean ? That means something was CHEAPER.
Assuming we’re talking about Sub $800 computers… you have a point… but only because Apple doesn’t compete in those markets.
That doesen’t mean they can’t be compared to those markets as they are selling the same types of products.
If they don’t even compete in the low end then they are more expensive in general.
Did you pass highschool ? I would have failed DECA using your logic and that was a basic business class.
Come to me my darling…