Home > Windows > Microsoft Asks Linux Users, “How can we get your business?”Microsoft Asks Linux Users, “How can we get your business?” David Adams 2003-12-22 Windows 59 CommentsFrom Newsforge: “Microsoft has started distributing two online surveys to Linux User Groups and Linux users in general, one asking primarily about home computer use, the other about business use.”About The Author David AdamsFollow me on Twitter @david_adams 59 Comments 2003-12-22 7:21 pm For starters, lower your prices, listen to our opinions, and then build a better product!The principles of business are crystal clear, if there is a product on the market that people are not attracted to, for whatever reason, they will not buy it.Microsoft’s business tactics are just now starting to change and they now realize they need the input of Linux users to see what they’re doing wrong, and what Linux is doing right. However I think it’s too little, too late. I will never be a Windows user, except for at work where I have no choice (Monopoly anyone?) nor will I participate in any surveys they are looking to have completed.Disgruntly Yours,– jstn 2003-12-22 7:39 pm release ALL sourcode to the GPL make Windoze FREE so the world can fix your Kludgeware… 2003-12-22 7:41 pm be our beta testers, be our market annalysis be etc….I say one thing to M$, stay just like you are, it’s perfect that way 2003-12-22 7:51 pm so who has PROOF that this survey actually IS from Microsoft???? surveymonkey.com doesn’t look like microsoft.com… and anyone can put a microsoft.com email there.. 2003-12-22 8:01 pm First, M$ will have to pay for me to repsond its survey. I will not colaborate to an enterprise like M$ for free. And even if you pay me I will give wrong responses…The only way to fight Linux is lowering MUCH the prices or giving M$ bloatware for free. But the only collateral effect is the M$ bankrupcy… :-)) 2003-12-22 8:03 pm First, M$ will have to pay for me to respond its survey. I will not colaborate to an enterprise like M$ for free. And even if you pay me I will give wrong responses…The only way to fight Linux is lowering MUCH the prices or giving M$ bloatware for free. But the only collateral effect is the M$ bankrupcy… :-)) 2003-12-22 8:05 pm At least make a download version freely available. 2003-12-22 8:05 pm > “How can we get your business?”You can’t. We don’t want you any more.We used to support and promote you. Then you became the 8000 tonne gorilla. You have stifled innovation and are out to monopolize and dominate the world with your crudge.We are tired of wasting away our time making your crudge work. We are tired of giving you money for newer crudge and then wasting away even more time trying to make it work. No more. Your time is past. Go away. 2003-12-22 8:08 pm give these comments on the survey. they don’t do any good here. microsoft needs to know what unintelligent nerds you are, not us. 2003-12-22 8:12 pm I suggested that they make an affordable “lite” version of Windows at a reduced price, as long as they don’t strip the OS down to much the idea could really take off.Just because I’ve been using Linux for years doesn’t mean I can’t get a copy of Windows for games and with al lot of Linux distribution dumping KDE and making Gnome the default desktop I’m not happy with where Linux is going right now. 2003-12-22 8:30 pm Eh, I just don’t think this is possible. MS’s attitude towards the customer is basically one of “let’s see how far we can screw them without pissing them off too much”, cept they went alittle too far with anyone currently using Linux, and now they wanna know how to screw these people just a little bit less in order to get them to use Windows again.Of course, MS will can never truly change and still be consumed by greed at the same time, and so they will only change as little as they have to. And Linux users know this. 2003-12-22 8:43 pm >>release ALL sourcode to the GPL make Windoze FREE so the world can fix your Kludgeware…<<See an answer like this is just going to drive Microsoft back into their hole and say we tried but all that they want to do is bitch about stuff that we can’t economically do with our business model. How about instead of open source code they make an open API architecture that allows you to create more intigrated products. 2003-12-22 8:44 pm This was actully posted on /. a couple days ago. It seems litigit and with the announcement of the Kernel Team this might be a turn in the right direction for MS. 2003-12-22 8:46 pm >>I suggested that they make an affordable “lite” version of Windows at a reduced price, as long as they don’t strip the OS down to much the idea could really take off.<<What do you think Microsoft Windows XP Home is? It’s all the features of Windows with out the colaborative networking that is required for corporations such as Domain Login’s and etc. 2003-12-22 8:47 pm Hmm… The argument seems to be financially driven — to get more of the Linux pie you’re saying lower the cost of Windows or make it free.How many of the Linux users here use it only becuase it’s free? I’m guessing it’s a very small percent. 2003-12-22 8:55 pm you can’t.i see the big picture.capitalism is a competition. eventually there has to be a winner.then we all lose.i intend to keep the competition going till the giant is toppled (not likely to happen) or a new paradigm comes along and the giant is made irrelevant (very possible).end users of windows should be rooting for linux, even if you don’t like it or use it.because when competition is dead, so are you. 2003-12-22 8:56 pm “What do you think Microsoft Windows XP Home is? It’s all the features of Windows with out the colaborative networking that is required for corporations such as Domain Login’s and etc.”How is $299.99(can) afforadable?http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?logon=&langid=EN&de… 2003-12-22 8:56 pm >>Eh, I just don’t think this is possible. MS’s attitude towards the customer is basically one of “let’s see how far we can screw them without pissing them off too much”<<I am an avid Linux user but I hate to see comments like this. Microsoft is one of the only software companies that ever impliment customers requests. Customers said they wanted a better user experience, Microsoft gave them that. Customers said they wanted errors that had better explainations. Such as this.Your PCMCIA device is connected. Click “Disconnect” to disconnect the device and “Keep” to keep the device connected.Everybody knows what “Disconnect” and “Keep” mean many people don’t know what PCMCIA is. Even my grandmother knows the difference between Yes/No and Disconnect/Keep. Those terms don’t need explaining, however PCMCIA does to many people.That is one of the big changes to Windows XP.Developers said they wanted an easy all encompassing API that had the simplicity of Managed Code but the power of C++. And .Net was born. You may not totally agree with this but all developers can agree that the .Net Framework is a step in the right direction for total program intigration. No more COM problems.Many other software companies never talk to the customers and see what they need to help their business move forward, they try to force a new feature down the mouth of the client and they don’t like that. Take Sun for instance, everybody was telling them we need cheaper servers for web servers and other basic servers taht don’t need much processing power. They didn’t listen and look at the shape they are in now. 2003-12-22 9:01 pm Question 15: What improvements would you like to see in Windows?The problem isn’t the lack of security or the inferior technology, it’s the attitude of the company behind it.If you made your software technically perfect, it would still be useless to me: it still would be poisoned by the underlying corporate attitude towards the customers.Question 16:List the top one or two improvements that you would like to see made to Linux.Ability to replace the kernel without rebooting. 2003-12-22 9:04 pm I don’t know why you are going to that site when you can get it from BestBuy for 199.00 at http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=1051806638052&skuId=4272…Or even cheaper off Froogle.Google.comhttp://froogle.google.com/froogle?price1=150&price2=200&btnP=Go&q=~…Or how about hear for 150.00 at http://store.yahoo.com/earth1computer/micwinxphomr.htmlI mean I can find the most expensive site selling Linux too and say that it isn’t affordable. But I don’t usually shop at the most expensive sites do you? Plus I imagine the site that you put down is in Canadian Dollars not US, since it’s domain name is Canadian. So that brings it down to just around the same price as BestBuy at 200.00. Compared to the 300.00 for the full version of Windows XP Pro.Plus most people will upgrade their OS not but the straight version, because most people are not building their systems from scratch either. So that would only be around 100.00 for Home and 150.00 for Pro. But I bet you could find the upgrade price a lot cheaper than the prices I just listed.Please don’t spread this crap around you are not helping your argument any. 2003-12-22 9:05 pm this survey is most likely a fake 2003-12-22 9:06 pm nice comments nick. i agree partly.but don’t forget that microsoft will accomplish “other” things with new versions of software.“other” things that are more important then feature requests.so yes, they do implement feature requests where-they-can.but they also, and most importantly, do what’s best for their stockholders.-protect the monopoly-embrace and extend-create new infrastructure (in the os) for new revenue generating schemes.so taking feature requests “sounds great”…but it’s not their priority.it’s their priority to take the few that _are_ implemented and create a PR bonanza given any opportunity.“seee! we really _are_ great guys!!!” 2003-12-22 9:12 pm 1. Stop nickel-and-diming us. As the IT manager for a small company, I sure don’t mind paying up front. But it’s very frustrating to have to buy NT Server CALs, Exchange Server CALs, SQL Server CALs, and deal with an annoying middleman to buy usable (non-Activation) copies of Office through the various licensing programs. These are ongoing costs and a management headache with every new employee I add or computer I replace.2. Simplify. Yes, Windows is an “integrated platform”. But to the degree that locks me into your product, I resent it. I would use your product just as much, maybe even more, if it wasn’t so integrated. Sell me a stripped-down OS to which I can add the well-defined and OPTIONALLY-integrated services that I want. I don’t want to add an Active Directory user (not to mention purchase another CAL) just so I can set up a quickie e-mail account for a vendor who’s onsite for a week. 2003-12-22 9:17 pm One of my biggest problems with windows is that its gui is so inconsistent.I have fairly recently switched to linux as my main os, and it has pretty much everything to do with gnome 2.4. Gnome has got to a point where I can accomplish all of my normal tasks using higified applications. To switch to linux was a gradual thing, I was just slowly drawn to the consistant easy to use environment gnome offered me. Microsoft should get all of its devolopment teams together and have them agree on a gui standard. Why do programs like internet explorer, msn messager, outlook, windows media player, cmd.exe, office, and msvc++ all have different look and feels? Why are there windows95 style icons randomly mixed in with the new xp ones? What is going on with task tray icons? Task tray icons like the ones from system monitor, msn messager, and volume control all behave differently. 2003-12-22 9:17 pm This is actully a legit survey. I am a MS Beta Tester and they use this company/domain for survey’s all the time. I have also seen Microsoft using this on non beta surveys too.They usually outsource most of these things to smaller companies so that they can have a degree of seperation away from their name to ask questions like do you want Open Source Code, and etc. 2003-12-22 9:23 pm I agree somewhat that this is a good PR idea. But some of the comments people are making are down right stupid. One example is making windows GPL. Why the hell would someone do that? Microsoft spends years and billions of dollars making Windows and people want them to just GPL it so that all their hardwork can be shown to everyone else. It’s the same as saying that Coca Cola should have put out its secret cola formula out into the public domain.The thing many Linux zealots often forget is that MS is corporation that has to answer to shareholders and show profits and revenues that are either in line with their past or those that exceed a previous quarter’s financial data.GPL just would not be a choice for Microsoft because it defies every way they’ve worked in the past. As far as the price is concerned, I think MS charges a fair price for their OS. It’s a massive product and do remember that it was because of MS that the OS became cheaper in the first place. Back in the days of CP/M, Digital Research was charging a large premium for the OS.What MS does need to do though is be a fair player in the market. There’s a very fine line between being competetive and anti-competetive behavior. MS seems to cross this line every now and then. 2003-12-22 9:28 pm >>One of my biggest problems with windows is that its gui is so inconsistent. <<Are you on crack? Just Kidding. But really I have been using Linux on my duel boot machine for a while now, and I find the Windows XP/2000 interface very friendly to users who switch between applications alot. I mean there is always going to be generation gaps between programs, but over all everything is usually in the same place. Save is always under File, things like that.>>Why do programs like internet explorer, msn messager, outlook, windows media player, cmd.exe, office, and msvc++ all have different look and feels?<<Why do programs like Mozilla, Gaim, Evolution, XMMS, Konsole (any command line shell here), Open Office, and KDevelop all have different looks and feels? Like I said many of these programs are generational things can you can’t put the Office GUI in with Free programs because it took alot of time to create that. But to answer you question they are trying to solve problems like this with the a standard UI that is managed for all of their products. This will help eliminate the problems with the GUI that are developed in C++ or VB. Because that is the main reason for the problems of not having a common GUI.>>Why are there windows95 style icons randomly mixed in with the new xp ones?<<I have often wondered this myself, and I really think it has to do with they didn’t really change the Icon’s that weren’t going to be viewed all the time by their customers. Because if you look throught the System32 folder you will find a ton of 8bit icons, they probably, did want to spend the time and money to change these icons and recompile the program from the Windows 2000 state. But that is just my guess.>>What is going on with task tray icons? Task tray icons like the ones from system monitor, msn messager, and volume control all behave differently.<<I didn’t really understand this question? Can you elaborate a little. I mean they all have their different popup windows for changing the parameters or exiting the program. But this is really up to the developer and it is sort of anoying to double click on MSN to re open the Buddy List, and only clic once on the Sound Icon to open a volumn changer and double click to open a more advanced volumn changer. 2003-12-22 9:33 pm Thank you for stating what most of us Windows People have been stating for a long time. You stated it so well.As a Windows developer I don’t want to worry about 30 distrobutions to deal with and that is what would happen if the code went Open Source. Which I don’t want, I like developing for a pretty static platform, it helps drive down costs and increase productivity. I would like to seem them keep their Kernel closed and probably their business layer. But I would like to see their GUI layer API’s opened up to allow more windows mangement programs to come out.I don’t really agree with the GPL license anyways, it seems to limit developers more than helping them. I like BSD or LGLP. 2003-12-22 9:34 pm Cost and open code are the whole point here. Microsoft is not going to be lowering their prices nor opening the source, so there’s really no point in a survey and nothing to discuss. 2003-12-22 9:49 pm “We used to support and promote you. Then you became the 8000 tonne gorilla. You have stifled innovation and are out to monopolize and dominate the world with your crudge.”Oh and Linux doesn’t stifle inovation, how is Yet Another Unix Clone inovation? How is coping everyone else inovation? How far would HURD be if linux wasn’t around to steal all the developers. 2003-12-22 9:49 pm Get rid of product activation, open all filetypes within your OS to other competing OSes, and provide a free development environment with the OS. Stop trying to crush everyone who makes a competing product and do some real innovation.…oh and only charge $20 for the OS for home use.IOW…they never will. 2003-12-22 9:55 pm Yeah…This would be funny if these surveys actually were from Microsoft. I can gurantee you that they aren’t.Microsoft isn’t going to use surveymonkey to host their surveys.And Frank, a supposed Microsoft employee is going to respond from a Hotmail account? Yeah right.These are almost certainly bogus surveys that did not originate from Microsoft. 2003-12-22 9:59 pm Yeah, but the Prozac should be bundled with Linux distro’s. Cripes, what a bunch of angry panti-loads.I use both WinXP and Mandrake, and I don’t use either based on Company Philosophy. I use them as tools to get a job done.I filled out the survey in the hopes that it is real. For #15 & 16 I wrote:15. Easier ways to “lighten” the OS (define and turn off unwanted services, Registry control, etc).16. More specific software titles (Street Atlas, Blitz Basic, etc). 2003-12-22 10:26 pm Strip Windows down, just the most basic stuff with the classic theme. Make it a free download in ISO format or FTP install. All the extras like IE, WMP, DirectX can also be downloaded on their own, individually. Charge a small fee for things like movie maker and the like. Offer no support for it and make sure people know it’s the free download edition by keeping the logo, or whatever you like, in the bottom right corner like the beta and trial versions of Windows do.Another thing they could do is make this download version 64bit only, to really limit the number of users at the start.I think it’s a good idea. It’s too much of a hassle for average users to do so it won’t hurt MS that much. OEM’s will still have to buy Windows as well, people that buy comp’s won’t want the stripped download edition.So let’s see if MS will do this! One can dream… 2003-12-22 10:32 pm “Oh and Linux doesn’t stifle inovation, how is Yet Another Unix Clone inovation? How is coping everyone else inovation? How far would HURD be if linux wasn’t around to steal all the developers.”Hardly, it is precisely the success and spread of Linux that allows more and more developers to work on it. Younger than BSD and Unix but giving both of them a run for their money. Stealing implies the developers would almost rather be working on HURD which is a real stretch. HURD languishes in the GNU basement because of RMS’ stringent rules. 2003-12-22 10:49 pm I am guessing most people use it becuase they think they are cool becuase they can make mindless bashing remarks even if they don’t know why its better or worse or whatever. 2003-12-22 11:12 pm It’s simple… tell us what you want in Longhorn. 2003-12-22 11:32 pm >>Why do programs like internet explorer, msn messager, outlook, windows media player, cmd.exe, office, and msvc++ all have different look and feels?<<Why do programs like Mozilla, Gaim, Evolution, XMMS, Konsole (any command line shell here), Open Office, and KDevelop all have different looks and feels? Like I said many of these programs are generational things can you can’t put the Office GUI in with Free programs because it took alot of time to create that. But to answer you question they are trying to solve problems like this with the a standard UI that is managed for all of their products. This will help eliminate the problems with the GUI that are developed in C++ or VB. Because that is the main reason for the problems of not having a common GUI.I am not going after 3rd party apps for having a goofy look and feel. Things like winamp and icq are out of microsoft’s control. All I am asking is that the core operating system apps at least try to look and act the same. Compare how well totem and windows media player fit into their respective desktops. Totem has a normal gnome style interface that works like the rest of the desktop. wmp9 (just installed on the w2k box I am using now) with the default setup has some weird silver theme, a funny shaped window, a nonstandard image based buttons, and to top it off it doesn’t even have the standard “File Edit View …” menu or windows decoration.A program needing new widgets is not a good reason to completely reinvent the wheel. Unless there is something fundementally wrong with their process I do not see why office could not use the standard widgets for 90% on its interface and create the other 10% derived from the standard set.>>What is going on with task tray icons? Task tray icons like the ones from system monitor, msn messager, and volume control all behave differently.<<I didn’t really understand this question? Can you elaborate a little. I mean they all have their different popup windows for changing the parameters or exiting the program. But this is really up to the developer and it is sort of anoying to double click on MSN to re open the Buddy List, and only clic once on the Sound Icon to open a volumn changer and double click to open a more advanced volumn changer.Sorry, I’ll try and give an example:When I have windows task manager open double clicking on the tray icon opens it. If I double click on it again nothing happens. If I click on the minimize button “_” the window disapears. If I click on the close button “X” the tray icon disapears and the application closes.Compared to say the volume control tray icon. If I double click on the tray icon it opens it. If I double click on it again it opens another window. If I click on the minimize button “_” it minimizes the window. If I click on the close button “X” the window disapears, but tray icon stays there.Basically what I am trying to say is that I wish that all of the tray apps would do the same thing. I am forever closing apps when I think I am minimizing them, and minimizing apps when I think I am making the window disapear. Again I don’t blame microsoft for 3rd party apps like aim, but they should come up with some type of hig and make sure at least their apps stick to it. 2003-12-22 11:58 pm because I don’t want microsoft to have any understanding of their enemy. 2003-12-23 12:17 am >>Basically what I am trying to say is that I wish that all of the tray apps would do the same thing. I am forever closing apps when I think I am minimizing them, and minimizing apps when I think I am making the window disapear. Again I don’t blame microsoft for 3rd party apps like aim, but they should come up with some type of hig and make sure at least their apps stick to it.<<Well if you have ever created a Window App all that those buttons do is the standard stuff unless the event is caught and compromised by making the program think the the close button is a minimize click. This probably happens with some Linux apps too. I mean wouldn’t overriding 3rd party software be stifling the competion? Couldn’t somebody make that argument?I agree they should have a common way of operation across the OS, but many of these programs are left over from the NT days. And many probably have a phase out date. 2003-12-23 12:49 am this is blatently obvious.. Why would I tell you what to do to steal the ideas from my os.. If this is a business survey.. I chose it for business purposes.. if personal.. I chose it for personal reasons.. The end… Go steal someone elses Ideas.. 2003-12-23 12:56 am Microsoft had something good in the beginning. However I was turned off in many ways to Windows back in Windows95 days. I was an original beta tester who ran it then on an old 486-66 with 16MB of RAM. It was great until something happened in a new beta which made it crawl like a dog. I do admit that as machines became faster, Windows became bigger but still remained a dog.Windows XP will be my final version for many reasons. First, product activation is really not what I wanted. Second, too many of its components are integrated and cannot be removed. Finally, the endless security fixes and patches that you have to update every week. It’s tiresome. Longhorn is suppose to fix this?I will not be purchasing any more Windows products until Windows addresses the following issues. It must be fully functioning and secure without the need for 52 to 104 patches a year. Second, I’m getting tired of rebooting my machine every time I install software and that’s got to be fixed. Finally, make a lite version to the point where we have the core but have many of the tools (IE, Media Player, and others) separated and not integrated. Make it affordable and not costing three figures or more for the desktop version.By the time Longhorn comes out, I will be fully converted to Linux. Microsoft will lose my business. 2003-12-23 1:19 am “this is blatently obvious.. Why would I tell you what to do to steal the ideas from my os..”This coming from someone who is a fan of an OS that stole virtually everything from another OS I suppose… 2003-12-23 1:21 am “Second, I’m getting tired of rebooting my machine every time I install software and that’s got to be fixed.”Um… It has been fixed. Windows XP almost never requires a reboot. 2003-12-23 1:23 am I suggested that they make an affordable “lite” version of Windows at a reduced price, as long as they don’t strip the OS down to much the idea could really take off. The biggest problem with that suggestion, of course, being that your idea of “too much” may differ greatly from other people’s ideas of “too much”. 2003-12-23 1:28 am How is $299.99(can) afforadable? Who actually pays $299 ?Most people (that actually buy Windows) get it either as an OEM copy or an upgrade, not a full retail version. Heck, even most of the people who bought the full retail product probably only needed to buy the upgrade. 2003-12-23 2:41 am 1) Release all code under a copyleft license. Preferably a liberal one. Liberal does not necessarily equal GPL however i’d propose a discussion about this with The World; in contrast to sharing source with governments. When governments do not trust the software without seeing the code, and the sharing of the code to government has the target to achieve trust; why shouldn’t companies, NGO’s and home users be able to view and/or use the source in order to trust it? Liberate your EULA’s too. Change the way you intend to make profit.2) Accept the fact there’s competition, and allow this. Adopt this philosophy in your OS. Ie. make the programs and selling of them more modulair.3) Resulting in a charge for MSIE, charge for WMP, etc and lower the price of the OS. Stop the appeal to force ‘bind them all together in the shadows of OEM’ and while you’re at it stop that same thing with MSIE and WMP too.4) Like described in point #2: stop embrace & extend. Open up standards; don’t rip & rape them. Building on standards is np when the new implementation is open (SMB, AD, etc). Adopt a more transparant, open philosophy. Be honest about what exactly is going on with your insecure webbrowser and your Trusted Computing Group.5) ???100) Profit for BOTH the company and humanity.Given i’m not high on hope you’ll ever reach step 1, 2, 3 and 4 in a similair way i describe, you can’t satisfy me and in the end i believe you won’t reach point 100 anymore. In order for Microsoft to continue her existence, it must not ignore her history for more and more Microsoft software users will continue to view Microsoft’s steps with suspicion. No matter how hard you try with propaganda and tin foils, i believe only a real change in Microsoft’s business model like i described will achieve a longer survival and humanity as a whole will benefit.—-Linux is merely a kernel while Windows is a OS. Unfair comparision. Linux (2.6) is for me a kernel with which i’m highly satisfied. The only thing i’d really like to see in the Linux kernel is a OpenBSD PF-alike. A non-Linux related improvement is the development of (Debian) GNU/K*BSD. There are also other minor things like more WLAN hardware support and BSD related improvements, but the PF-alike one be the most important for me. 2003-12-23 3:20 am Windows does not have OpenSSH and the current implementations are either proprietary or not good in combination with its CLI. I also filled in the other survey though that is about an NGO, not a company. I take it that’s ok. 2003-12-23 3:54 am Besides the fact that I simply can’t give away my money to a company who keep Steve Balmer alive(that man just scares me, have you seen his cold dead eyes?), I can’t support a company who’s main goal is to make money. Some of you may think that I’m naive. But in my opinion a company should focus on making a good product. If they make a good product, then they will most likely make money out of it. You shouldn’t start a company with the vision of making billions of dollars.Also, if you focus on making a good product, there would be NO NEED to lock you costumers in. There would simply be no reason to not give you users the freedom to switch to an alternative whenever they want. If you make a good product, the users will stick to it. Ignoring open standards and killing off third party developers are not a good way to maintain a userbase in the long run I believe. Eventually, the caged bird will see the blue sky outside the window and he will want to get out of there, but if you somehow prove that the cage is much more fun, you could leave the door open and the bird wouldn’t even bother to escape. 2003-12-23 8:16 am Base your desktop on BeOS (god knows that you can afford buying it from PalmSource), and base your server on a unix.Just as long as you do it right. 2003-12-23 9:18 am Look, I don’t know what happened to you guys (microsoft) but you’ve been pissing me off so much lately. I heard about your new .NET framework and so wanted to invest my time in that learning ASP.NET on my computer. What I found was another company doing what you should’ve been doing and providing more support then you.. I mean from what I’ve heard you were going to provide lots of tutorials for C#, I found 1.Can’t run 2000, XP on this computer.. programs are way too sluggish. You guys stopped support on your older OS’s.. So, I couldn’t get IIS 5.. Though I didn’t try NT. Eventually after repeated times of trying to get it all to work out I gave up. Decided not to invest my time in this new technology. No wait, waste my time sounds more accurate.Personal summary:To me, microsoft looks like it’s trying to improve on usability.. and they have. Just nothing we can afford. We dont’ want to have to buy a new computer just to run your stupid operating system.Further more, I went and got msn.. I hate the new msn. Actually I would’ve stuck to the old msn.. but you guys force me to go to a new one. why? I got sick and tired since the new one provided so many problems. I don’t use msn at all anymore.I like the older WMP (windows media player).. you could play Shoutcast streams.. then you upgraded, made it so fucking bulky and loaded and took out that feature. So screw windows media player. I dont use that at all anymore.Those were some of the main things. I could go on if you like, but I’d be wasting my time more than I have been already.No support for 98? Oh well, it was decent for a while. It’s not invasive like the new OS’s you have.. but never the less.. I’m not using that anymore.Happily using my Red Hat Linux. The cost.. A toenail clipping. 2003-12-23 11:04 am The biggest problem I see with Windows is that it isn’t as powerful as a Unix-like system. To me, the stability and speed of Windows and Linux are fairly comparable: Windows XP never crashes on me because I am careful to choose which programs I throw on my system. In general, Linux apps have crashed on me more than Windows apps, but that’s just my experience. The Windows GUI also seems much more responsive than KDE and Gnome. While most Linux users that I have talked to think that Windows is slow and buggy, I have found that the two systems are fairly similar in respect to speed and stability on my desktop system. I chose Linux (well actually I mostly use FreeBSD now) for a more important reason: I can do more with Linux or FreeBSD then I can do with Windows XP.The bottom line is that Windows doesn’t have all the features that make Unix flexible. Things I can do in Linux but not in Windows include: make bootable systems that fit on a floppy or CD, easily set up a dedicated and secure firewall, make scripts to do system admin tasks, mount exotic filesystems, run deamons as their own chrooted process, easily look up commands using the man pages, have different partitions for / /tmp /var /usr /home /boot, mount the root filesystem as read-only, perform system resource accounting, kill tasks reliably without harming system stability, restart X without rebooting, run the system without X, run the system in a ram disk, install and customize software with an advanced package manager (Gentoo, FreeBSD, etc), set up advanced user permissions, write and distribute open source programs easily (how many end users know how to compile a program on Windows?), not have to worry about viruses, read the kernel source when I’m bored, and attempt to hack suid programs 😉 .Well, why can’t I do all this stuff in Windows? It’s the same reason why Unix became so popular: the source was included, it had a relatively small kernel, it was fairly modular, and over time it evolved to have a set of well thought-out features. You know “Unix” is a pun on “Multics,” right? It got that name because “in areas where Multics attempted to do many things, Unix tried to do one thing well,” at least according to the classic book The Design and Implementation of the 4.4BSD UNIX Operating System. I have never used Multics, and it surely was nothing like Windows, but to me Windows is this big black box that tries to do everything, while Linux and the BSDs contain a small kernel and subsystems that I can understand. While Linux and the BSDs are not nearly perfect OSes (they could stand to be a lot more user-friendly), they are much more powerful and more flexible than Windows. 2003-12-23 12:14 pm >>4) Like described in point #2: stop embrace & extend. Open up standards; don’t rip & rape them. Building on standards is np when the new implementation is open (SMB, AD, etc). Adopt a more transparant, open philosophy. Be honest about what exactly is going on with your insecure webbrowser and your Trusted Computing Group.<<The problem with this is an age old question. Who decides standards? A “standards” group that has only 10% of the population actually using their standard, or the other 90% of the population using some sort of the standard in a modified way.It was the same way back in the 90’s when Netscape just raped the HTML language and din’t support anything. So all web desingers were forced to design to the raped standard of Netscape’s HTML. Then along came MS with IE 4 which had much better support for HTML and the most recent standard. And since it came with the OS, most people started using it, and most HTML developers couldn’t be more pleased. … Then we all know the rest about how Netscape started whining like a little child, because of some anti-trust thing. And the governement actually appeased Netscape for loosing maketshare because of their poor product, by giving over money from a better prodcut at the time IE.What this long diatride was about, is that who ever has the market has the standard. Customers demand many features from Microsoft, and MS has played it the right way, by modifiying a current standard to give the features to the customers but still keep some since of the old standards so that all systems can talk together in some form. Just look at what they did to SMTP/Exchange but yet it still works with all other known SMTP implimentations, it just has more features if you are actually using their software. That is called good marketing keeping you software at the basic level compatible with everybody elses but on a more advanced level keeping them with your software.I pose this question to all of you: Who actually holds the standard if 90% of the market goes with the non-standard group, and only 10% goes with the standards group? 2003-12-23 1:26 pm At the rate that Linux is spreading, it will be not in the hands of just one or a group of billionaires but under development by inidividuals, corporations,governments around the globe so in the long run we can’t help but get a better product than anything that any single corporation can put out. In the long run, Linux/Open Source can’t help but come out ahead. 2003-12-23 5:32 pm “Um… It has been fixed. Windows XP almost never requires a reboot.”Not in all cases but XP does improve the process. NAV and a few others which require installation of certain system files and services of course need a reboot. I meant to say past versions had this problem. 2003-12-23 5:47 pm “You can’t. We don’t want you any more.“We used to support and promote you. Then you became the 8000 tonne gorilla. You have stifled innovation and are out to monopolize and dominate the world with your crudge.“We are tired of wasting away our time making your crudge work. We are tired of giving you money for newer crudge and then wasting away even more time trying to make it work. No more. Your time is past. Go away.”No better way to say it.Now, all I need is for the bosses to understand what we *workers* have been trying to tell them for the past 5 years.But then again, the bosses probably would rather have point-and-click, drag-and-drop jockeys whenever possible.God help us if they ever see us editing a *text file* to configure something!!…and don’t even *think* about *scripting* anything….If you want our business, bring back the old days when you used to encourage everyone, including system administrators, to have development tools.Then, maybe we can talk.Maybe. 2003-12-23 5:49 pm on whether those development tools are around a public, all-comers-allowed, standard, instead of the rats-nest you’ve created for yourselves, that no one may participate without paying the fee. 2003-12-23 5:55 pm No reboots? Yeah, right!“Not in all cases but XP does improve the process. NAV and a few others which require installation of certain system files and services of course need a reboot. I meant to say past versions had this problem.”When I see these “new” “improved” products in a production setting, running 24×7, without having to take the bosses’ toys away every time something has to be worked on, then I’ll believe.Not before.BTW, I never see that “your system is running low on virtual memory” on my W2K workstation.They just don’t bother to show it anymore. The problem is still there, though, depending on the application.Is this like the furniture maker who finally got the front, back, and sides polished right, but you still can’t open the drawer with one hand?Looks like it to me. You will never get me back until you address all the issues at once, not just the ones that make you money now. 2003-12-23 6:00 pm “How many of the Linux users here use it only becuase it’s free? I’m guessing it’s a very small percent.”That’s a mixed bag, and Heaven knows they’ll use it to scoff at us.I use it because I can *develop* for it at a cost I can afford.I used to use Windows for the same reason. Long, long ago….