“As never before, corporate customers are turning to Linux software instead of Microsoft Windows to run big business operations. Now, if only they could get the word processor’s basic “cut and paste” feature to work.” Read the rest of the article at CNN (from Reuters).
Reuters: Linux Desktop Still Miles Behind Microsoft’s
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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Now, if only they could get the word processor’s basic “cut and paste” feature to work.
Below the belt.
Agreed. It says and tells nothing.
Who said “cut and paste” works 100% of the time on other platforms. And the article doesn’t how Linux is miles behind Windows. I’m I missing something? Or is it the 98% sucess rate of “cut and paste” that make Linux miles behind windows?
Cut and paste work just fine in OpenOffice, Abiword, and KWord. I’ve never seen cut and paste fail on these word processors. I can believe they’ve had a problem, but its kind of useless to mention it without being specific.
I wonder if the author is actually sharing concerns derived from first-hand experience, or just parroting what he/she heard elsewhere. The consistency comment is particularly telling, since I never hear users complain about apps being “inconsistent.” Certainly, if users cared about consistency, Windows would not be the most popular OS today!
The “works 98% of the time” comment also strikes me as odd. For the general public (not Linux or Windows gurus), no computer works “98% of the time”. They are horrible machines that work 2/3s of the time if they are lucky. My dad has been on a business trip for about a week, and has already called me twice for tech support. Last night, he called me in a panic because an MS Office corrupted an important document after importing an Excel sheet into a Word document. He regularly calls me because he has lost documents he has been working on, because Word apparently does not save backup copies automatically. I guess my overall point with this rant is that anybody claiming that Linux works “98% of the time” is full of crap. I’d say its more like 50% for Linux, and 60% for Windows. Maybe 75% for MacOS. Computers have a *long* way to go before they can be considered as dependable a tool as, say, a car.
in front of a fishy wall paper
This writer is WAY out of touch. He has no idea what hes talking about.
“Office documents created using Microsoft Windows PCs can be saved and reopened on Linux PCs without suffering the sort of software conflicts that cause programs to crash.”
LOL! WTF is that? Completely clueless.
I agree with all of the above posters. This article tells almost nothing. IMO, standardisation is the main feature that Linux distros could use. LSB is a start, but there is a long way to go. Even if the big distros created a unified ‘base system’ (like in BSD) and built their custom installers, configuration tools and extended software on top.
If there is a good Quality & Assurance in GNOME and people who throughly force them to happen then I bet that GNOME may become a better Desktop than what it is today. GNOME needs stability, throughly in every area. Patches needs to be committed properly and tested correctly. Things shouldn’t drastically change all couple of months (e.g. once the App is stable they usually throw everything over board and start something new). A lot of half finished things, a lot of half committed patches, a lot of half checked things. The word(s) HALF or NOT EXISTING can be abused in many areas here.
Look at the future for example udev/dbus/hal 3 new keywords that made it into GNOME but again it’s just reflecting a little part of GNOME (again) not everything in GNOME will use it the same time. We now have 2 Apps that react on dbus messages and hal informations but the rest of 99 Apps doesn’t because much of the stuff yet again is ‘App specific’ rather than ‘Framework specific’.
The terminology ‘GNOME is a mess’ is sowhat insulting and definately the people working on it don’t deserve it but it’s the closest what I can say here without being insulting.
> Its users are required to share the computer code they create.
He seems to have absolutely no clue what he’s talking about. Since when is free software mandatory under Linux?
out of context quotes, unsubstantiated affirmations….
Why do such articles get posted here ?
anyhow linux and the desktop is moving fastforward as far as i can see. the problems i have today vill probably be gone tomorrow or next week..
“Its users are required to share the computer code they create.”
I don’t know any USER who has to share code. How can they. 99.9% of USERS don’t even know what “code” means!
This article is a waste
CNN …. well, what do you expect?
with all respect, why does osnews post so much non-tecnical stories about linux being or not being ready for the desktop.
i think, posting the most qualitative would be enough.
Ask CNN why they posted it first. Obviously there are people who believe that Linux’s desktop is not good and they write about it. I won’t sensor these journalists just because you or I might not agree with the said text. It remains an opinion, and honestly, many people have this opinion and so this makes it relevant for publishing.
Surely, as a journalist, when you write an article you take some measure of responsibility to correctly inform the people who will read the article, which is to say that you should make sure you get your facts straight and you’re not talking a load of rubbish.
There’s a difference between holding an opinion and simply being ignorant. Articles like these only serve to misinform and confuse people.
When I read articles like this about subjects I have some knowledge about, the awful thought arises that all mainstream journalism is utter crap. We all live inside the reality distortion fields of the media. Scary….
I certainly don’t disagree with the point presented in the article. Linux does need to work on polishing things to make certain tasks less “eventful.” However, a valid point means nothing when presented in such an awfully poor manner, as it is in this article.
Well, the article might not be overly informative. But it is correct. And to all the geeks here throwing tantrums about wording and content… The article is not meant for you, it is meant for normal people, people who do not know or care as much about computers as true geeks.
I have had the same thoughts, and its scary indeed. I can just imagine knowledgable people in other fields being just as frustrated with mainstream media, and the rest of us having no idea that what we just saw/read/heard was over-simplified and misleading. Do we ever see the whole real truth anymore?
So depressing…
Its users are required to share the computer code they create.
Only if you use the GPL, AFAIK. It really shouldn’t be allowed to write crap like that.
Now, if only they could get the word processor’s basic “cut and paste” feature to work.
I have to agree here. CnP doesn’t work correctly for some applications. Inconsistency caused by missing standards is Linux’ biggest enemy.
There’s a difference between holding an opinion and simply being ignorant. Articles like these only serve to misinform and confuse people.
Couldn’t agree more. Sadly, most people will believe this crap if they read it.
— “And to all the geeks here throwing tantrums about wording and content… The article is not meant for you, it is meant for normal people, people who do not know or care as much about computers as true geeks.” —
We’re not ‘throwing tantrums’ about wording and content, we’re expressing shock at the large number of completely false assertions and misleading statements. Its not that his opinion is wrong, its that so many of his ‘facts’ are wrong, and that its so obvious that he is writing about something of which he has virtually no understanding at all. It would be like me writing about how the latest new heart surgery technique is just not ready. Im no doctor, trust me.
Cut and paste work just fine in OpenOffice, Abiword, and KWord. I’ve never seen cut and paste fail on these word processors. I can believe they’ve had a problem, but its kind of useless to mention it without being specific.
Yes, sometimes cut & paste may Not work! I am using Mandrake 9.2 with the default KDE version but on some websites, copying a link and attempting to paste it in another application may not work. This behaviour is random. I have tried to get a consisten set of environment so that I can submit a bug report but have failed. Yes, I know how to use the Unix way of copying. Agree guys, sometimes, cut & paste may not work. I just tried copying text from osnews and pasting it into Konsole, but it will not work!! The text I am referring ti is the Website generated text but not text found in what windows would call a text box. Incidentally, highlighting the text and right clicking on it still gives you options that are just not helpful at all. Imagine how one of the options is “Open in Background tab” for text that is not a link to anything!!
Cb..
The article does not offend my sensibilities as a geek. It offends my sensibilities as a person who cares about the written word. You say that “wording and content” are not important, but they are the soul of good writing! Writing is about what you say, and how you say it. This article manages to say nothing, poorly. Any writing that presents a thesis, in this case, Linux is “miles behind Windows”, also must provide accurate and compelling supporting evidence. This article fails in this regard as well.
” it is meant for normal people, people who do not know or care as much about computers as true geeks. ”
I don’t want to read the same newspaper as you ! I don’t care too much about a number of subjects, but when I read about it, I expect to read something informative and reasonably objective. Even “opinion” columns have to be substantiated……
I’ve grown out of Mickey Magazine 😉
I’m not denying that copy-and-paste may not work. I’m saying that without saying something specific like “copy and paste does not work when highlighting something from Konqueror and pasting it into Konsole” the comment is really meaningless.
Geeks are normal people, thank you very much ! We get so much of this kind of abuse we don’t notice anymore.
Who takes such articles serious, when the are on a site like CNN.com.
This broadcasting station is extremely influenced by the industry. This article has obviously it’s origin in microsoft’s PR-department.
It is only a collection of propaganda statements from Linux opponents and does not give any reason, why Linux is worse in usage then windows.
Is it really worth posting such articles on osnews.com ??
A comparison of paid shipments of linux operating systems is not measure at all…
equals Laura DiDio.
highlight text with your mouse, then go click your middle mouse button where you want to paste it.
Is there anywhere that it doesn’t work?
IMO, most articles like this are silly because the authors look at the system and think “this doesn’t work the same way as windows, so it’s not as good”. Very close minded.
Making linux looks like Windows is very important.
Just for now, they are big and we are small..
Linux’s highlight-copy middleclick-paste is the one reason that I cannot go back to windows for any reason. I gets confused when it doesn’t paste what I had previously highlighted 🙁
In case you lost count, this is the third Linux is/is not ready for the desktop article this month. C’mon OSNews, how many do we need???
“For the general public (not Linux or Windows gurus), no computer works “98% of the time”. They are horrible machines that work 2/3s of the time if they are lucky”
Not most of my clients that are running Windows XP on thier desktops with Office XP are NEVER having thier machines crash or lockup. I had a owner call me at compnay last week. His PC is not on a UPS and the power had flashed. He had forgot his password because he hadn’t logged off or rebooted his machine in over a month. This alone shows he is a neophyte or I could persuade him to at least lock his computer at night. He uses it every day for Word, IE, Quickbooks and Excel.
BSOD’s are going away with Win 9x.
The “works 98% of the time” comment also strikes me as odd. For the general public (not Linux or Windows gurus), no computer works “98% of the time”. They are horrible machines that work 2/3s of the time if they are lucky.
And even to gurus it doesn’t work 98% of the time. That’s why recording our new demo has taken over two months compared to the expected one week. We ran into a lot of computer-related issues, where most of them were Windows-related.
Even BeOS doesn’t work 98% of the time for me, but it’s generally very easy to locate and fix the problems in BeOS compared to in windows where you don’t have a clue most of the time.
Cut and paste in linux could be a bit troublesome five years ago, but now it’s working fine with most apps. Drag and drop is a different story though.
Hello? Did anyone actually read the article? It’s talking about INTEROPERABILITY. There are some fantastic programs for KDE, GNOME, and other X-based GUIs, but they all work slightly differently. WE NEED STANDARDS. We need programmers to follow these standards.
For instance, cut and paste usually works within a program, but will sometimes fail between programs. At the least, any “rich” formatting such as type face, size, color, etc. are often lost. And if we’re talking about cutting and pasting graphics–forget it. More often than not, it will not work between Linux-based programs. Remember–there’s either no standards or programmers aren’t following them.
There’s amazing talent out there in Open Source GUI land, but very little coordination. If I were Microsoft, I’d be doing as much as I could to make sure the KDE and GNOME camps don’t combine and everyone keeps arguing over standards rather than adopting them. No wait–Microsoft doesn’t have to do this because the Linux community is doing it for them.
We all rise or sink together.
You must be a True Believer. Did you read the article? IT wasn’t about “cut and paste”. It was about the lack of consistency in the Linux desktop and the need fpr increased standards in that regard.
While True Believers tout “choice” as a hallmark of Linux, prospective corporate desktop buyers look at that “choice” and see confusion and inconsistency. They want every basic capability on their desktops to work the same way in every application used by their employees. For example, they want the “file open/save” menu to be in the same place; they want printes to work exactly the same in all apps; they want one media player that works for all purposes across the board, etc.
True Believers usually perceive a tension between “choice” and consistency, but that’s a false dichotomy. Real choice is giving users new applications with new capabilities, not clones of old applications with no new capabilities.
Good lord.
Someone needs to quit watching their Micro$crap stocks. Micro$crap WinTrash is the Fisher-Price (TM) of the operating system world.
For four years I have supervised a small network of 120 + machines stretched across five computerized labs on a small college campus. Only recently when mandated to upgrade to XP (Xtremely Problematic) have I had a student breach security and try to install a card game via the WinTrash’s Help and Services on the Start Bar. Yes, I went into Services.MSC to restrict access. Point is – how many operating systems allow higher access functions by accessing the Help Menu? Hmmm?
I have personaly eliminated Micro$crap on all my home machines and now run Linux. It has been four months now without one single system failure. I have translated my wife’s professional presentations, generally around 55 to 60 MB each, with OpenOffice without error. I like the Gnome desktop which looks better than the loli-pop colors of WinTrash.
Grow up, move forward, use Linux!
From home,
Troy
I still get pissed off when I have to switch back to windows XP. File management sucks in windows explorer. I can’t customized my hotkeys. There is no tabbed views. I can’t hit “Ctrl-T” to open a command window directly in the folder I am browsing. Or Ctrl-H to hide/show hidden files.
Windows is dumded down, its not made for power users to work quickly.
Ive seen lots of comments on this and other stories from people saying that Linux needs to do this to gain marketshare, or Linux needs to do that to get the corporate desktop, but I think those people really don’t understand Linux at all…
What if Linux DOESN’T get better consistency?
What if it NEVER standardizes?
What if Linux hackers continue to bicker and duplicate effort?
What if their are ALWAYS multiple choices for desktops?
What if their are ALWAYS fifty distros to choose from?
What if the Linux community never gets friendlier?
What horrible thing will happen then, huh? Nothing. It will continue on like ususal, because the Linux hackers will continue to do what they like to do, improve Linux.
Linux isn’t a company that needs to find profit or go bankrupt. It doesn’t need to compete for the corporate desktop. It doesn’t need to consolidate and standardize and be easy to use. Linux will never ‘fail’.
This is somthing that the article writer, and many commenters here, simply don’t seem to understand.
“True Believers usually perceive a tension between “choice” and consistency, but that’s a false dichotomy”
Agreed. In these cases I always say: “Give me a choice to have consistency in Linux” %)
“Real choice is giving users new applications with new capabilities, not clones of old applications with no new capabilities.”
Wrong. Clones of old applications are very important aspect of choice. This is in fact what OSS is all about (apart of fun
— give people equal access to technology. Doesn’t matter if the technology is established or new. I don’t particularly care about innovation in open source.
“They want every basic capability on their desktops to work the same way in every application used by their employees. For example, they want the “file open/save” menu to be in the same place; they want printes to work exactly the same in all apps; they want one media player that works for all purposes across the board, etc.”
That OS doesn’t exist yet.
I have had problems with cut-and-paste with Mandrake 9.0.
I couldn’t do a cut-and-paste from the Evolution email client.
Is this “Windows” CPU faster than a Pentium 4? How about that new Linux CPU? My crappy Pentium 3 computer is so slow and I want a faster computer. I keep on seeing these articles talking about “Windows PCs” and whatnot. Are they sorta like Apples or Amigas? Who make these new CPUs anyway? If I buy a “Windows PC” like they talk about in the article, will this computer only run a Windows operating system. I have a copy of Windows 2000. Do they make a model called the “Windows 2000 PC”?
Oh wait a minute… Could it be that I’m being misled by these articles which must be written by a bunch of assclowns who don’t really have a clue what they’re writing about? Hmmm… It’s a definite possibility. Wow, I can’t begin to express how sick and tired I am of hearing and seeing stupid dumbed down phrases like “Windows PC”. I think maybe most of the people who will read an article like this are probably going to be grown up enough to handle big technical phrases like plain old “PC running Microsoft Windows”. If not, then they should probably not be reading the article in the first place and instead turning on the TV and watching American Idol. I mean it’s pathetic. Thanks to the monopoly of Microsoft, there’s so many people in the world who actually think that that’s all non-Apple personal computers are, “Windows PCs”. That’s sad. Yeah, it may be a technicality regarding that phrase but sorry but I have a couple of PCs sitting right here that run nothing but Linux right next to one the runs nothing but Windows 2000. But they’re all just “PCs”, aren’t they? Why can’t these so-called technical articles get something so simple right?
Linux desktop? Shucks! I can’t find “desktop.h” in this 2.6 kernel source I just downloaded anywhere. Anyone else find it? Ha ha har har cough cough. I’m not a huge fan of X but it does what it does pretty good. Miles behind Microsoft? What a crock of you-know-what. If someone wants to make a consistent desktop for use on Linux, then someone can write an alternative (not a replacement for) the X server that implements the things needed for that desktop that X(Free86) doesn’t provide and doesn’t have all the bells and whistles that X(Free86) does that desktop users wouldn’t need. Then anyone can run either one, both at the same time, or none at all on their *nix systems. That’s the great thing about Linux. Unlike Windows’ GUI, a person can *choose* if they want to run or even install an X server on Linux so they can have a desktop. Same with directfb and all the other GUIs avaialble. So, yeah, an X server plus the different WMs and DEs available may not make for a desktop that’s as *consistent* as Windows (or some people may claim) but to say it’s miles behind is a big load of you-know-what. All that needs to be done is get one of these alternative desktop servers that provides a consistent look and feel up to par and make that an viable alternative to running X(Free86) on Linux and *bsd and then these half-assed articles can quit whining about cut and paste not working 100% of the time on (cough cough) “Linux PCs”.
WHY would one trust (the conservative) CNN or Reuters as a more valuable trust than say someone who actually uses both OSes, or someone who programs for either? Like the articleswhich get posted on /. this site newsforge and all the other _real_ tech sites, where actual viable arguments are stated instead of this bull? And why does this site link to such bull, which almost unavoidable leads to yet another Holy war?
They overexagarate. Even when this be true:
“”Linux desktops need a little more work to be consistent,” said Jack Messman, chairman and chief executive of Novell Inc. “I don’t know how much of that will come about this year.””
Is “need a little more work to be consistent” what you define as “miles behind”?
And then the market share argument which pops up a few times which keeps those who want to be with the popular to stay. Argumentum ad populum; self-fullfilling prophecy. Seems to work good in the USA btw. Argumenting with this statistic is a load of bull. Market share doesn’t say anything about wether it is good or not. It says just this: popularity.
We all know Saab and Porsche suck, after all, the BMW is quite more popular! Ditch all the hobbyist OSes, VMS, *BSD, commercial Unices. After all, it’s Windows which is obviously the best because it’s the most popular! Sheesh…
“Only recently when mandated to upgrade to XP (Xtremely Problematic) have I had a student breach security and try to install a card game via the WinTrash’s Help and Services on the Start Bar. Yes, I went into Services.MSC to restrict access. Point is – how many operating systems allow higher access functions by accessing the Help Menu?”
Maybe if you knew how to administer an active directory domain with OU’s and group policies, you wouldn’t have such problems.
No matter what OS you are administering you have to be knowledgable about that OS.
Who takes such articles serious, when the are on a site like CNN.com.
Exactly!
Remember when they used a map section showing the Chech Republic in an article about Switzerland?
I mean, Switzerland, not any just recently founded nation.
It has the same borders for centuries, even the maps of the CIA have that one right
So if they can’t get facts right that have been known for centuries how do expect even remote accuracy on recent information.
The article is about Codweaver’s Crossover Office. _That’s_ why it talks about cut and paste and other problems running win32 apps with WINE. The person writing the article doesn’t have a clue about the distinction between win32 apps under WINE (like MS OFfice) and running native Linux apps (like OpenOffice.org).
Everyone who seems to write these “Linux Not Ready For The Desktop Yet” articles never seems to clearly define what they actually mean by “desktop”.
Gnome or KDE gives me windowing, menus, icons & mouse control – just like Windows.
Multimedia – I can play MP3s, CDs & DVDs on Linux and I can burn them too, all from the GUI (okay, DVD burning on Linux is a little behind still, I admit)
Graphics – GIMP gives me almost-Photoshop type editing of images
Office – OpenOffice lets me edit documents, presentations & spreadsheets
Games – okay, so nowhere near as widespread as Windows games but I still have a healthy selection of stuff I can play.
I’d love for someone to tell me what else there is that an OS needs to do to be “desktop ready”. Sure, there’s some fiddling with drivers and command line on occasions but once the system is set up and it runs fine, most people don’t touch it anymore anyway.
These “Linux On The Desktop” articles always seem to be written by Windows people who have not simply *tried* using KDE or Gnome but are simply recycling other peoples’ comments.
Sure, Linux isn’t desktop perfect (neither is Windows) but how about some constructive criticism that explains *WHY*.
For the most part, problems with cut and paste have been eliminated with the widespread adoption of KDE 3.xx. The problems with cut and paste were primarily the result of poor conformance with ICCCM standards in the 2.x series of the QT toolkit. The details are all well laid out at freedesktop.org http://freedesktop.org/Standards/clipboards-spec/clipboards.txt
It is worth noting that as long as distros continue to ship with KDE 2.x (Lycoris for sure, maybe others) this problem will continue to raise it’s ugly head.
Respectfully,
briber
To the guy who said CNN is conservative, surely you don’t live in the US because by the US term conservative CNN is the opposite. No channel that hosts Larry King Live can be considered conservative.
What’s this copy and paste stuff about. The worst problem I have ever had with it was inability to copy off my pilot program; I am guessing they don’t want me to be able to. Other than that, Sometimes when I close an application I lose what I had copied. But hey, you can’t middle click paste or highlight copy in Windows, so as far as I am concerned Windows is below the bar on copy paste.
Secondly, they didn’t mention the loads of extra’s that Gnome and KDE do that Windows can’t dream of doing. Multiple desktops (requires a third party app), multiple taskbars, multiple panels, organized menu’s by default, hundreds of panel applications that blow Longhorn’s fabled sidebar away, and nested window logins (useful for those root changes if you don’t want to do it in CLI).
The best desktops are on Linux in my opinion, then OS X, then BeOS and OS/2, then Solaris (just to rub it in more), and then FINALLY WINDOWS. Windows gui is just plain weak.
When I can have all my homework and leasure applications open at the same time without taskbar or desktop crouding then Windows gui will be up to snuff. Until then, I’ll stick with Gnome, KDE, and fluxbox.
Linux rocks as a server. It absolutely sucks as a desktop.
The comment about basic copy and paste wasn’t a low shot. It was dead on.
The only thing consistent about Linux is that you’ll find yourself at the commandline if you want to really get anything done with the OS. Thats not a big deal for us geeks but everyday users are lost in a scenario like that.
Linux has a WAYS to go before it replaces Windows on the desktop in my organization. we already use it for serving, which is where it makes sense right now.
The only problems I have with cut and paste is some apps don’t like to let me highlight to copy and middle-button click to paste. Since I’m used to using CTRL-C and CTRL-V, anyways, this is not a big deal to me. And it shouldn’t be for most Windows users migrating, anyways.
The support is shaping up quite quickly and should be finalized fairly soon. It’s really mostly up to the developers to use accepted standards, but since most Linux software is licensed under the GPL, any developer can add the proper code.
Linux rocks as a server. It absolutely sucks as a desktop.
I disagree. KDE 3.2 offers a better desktop experience than Windows XP, being on par with OS X.
The comment about basic copy and paste wasn’t a low shot. It was dead on.
If the author was referring to copy/pasting of images and/or objects, then he might arguably have a point, as it’s not always well-implemented. But if he talked about copy/pasting text, then it’s not only a low blow, but it’s actually false. There is no problem copying and pasting text in Linux. In fact, with the “middle-button-paste”, it’s actually more convenient than in Windows.
The only thing consistent about Linux is that you’ll find yourself at the commandline if you want to really get anything done with the OS.
Nope. Nearly anything that can be done through the command line can be done through a GUI. It’s really a matter of personal choice, not capability.
Corporations like the ones posting these articles should spend more money on commercial software. Because their competition might use Linux or OSS and get a financial advantage that would make them look more attractive to shareholders.
Profits are profits and costs are costs and commercial software is a cost. So is Linux if you have to hire someone to work with it. But if you can do it yourself its free, except for the hardware, of which you have plenty to choose from.
If you don’t believe in Linux or the global movement behind it, don’t use it. And don’t worry, I won’t feel bad if you avoid it. Though you may find me laughing at you one day. I get a kick out of watching all these arrogant fools’ empires crumble.
“…Ask CNN why they posted it first. Obviously there are people who believe that Linux’s desktop is not good and they write about it. I won’t sensor these journalists just because you or I might not agree with the said text… ”
Wait a minute. Not publishing an article is not the same as sensoring it. Open any newspaper and you will find many articles that are not published here. Are you sensoring them? Of course not.
“…It remains an opinion, and honestly, many people have this opinion and so this makes it relevant for publishing…”
Many people have racist opinions. Should those opinions therefore be relavent for publishing simply because many people have them? Again the answer is of course not.
CNN is NOT a conservative news source, they are the most left wing, biased towards homosexuals, abortion and the Demo-rats of all news sources.
But I have to admit, Linux on the desktop is still way behind MS operating systems. Win2kPro, WinXP Pro are used in the Enterprise and it will always be that way. It WORKS, you can cut and paste, and do anything you need to do. The functionality of Windows is the BEST!
People do not care about Abi word, KOffice, or any of the other sorry excuses of this free dope smoking linux crap. They want something that works, MS Office and MS operating systems. Linux is like the worst of all, about 500 applications and NONE of them work right!
Linux needs to get the basics working, like cut and paste, this is too funny…. ha ha ha ha ha
The linux zealots have to suck it up and face reality…desktop Linux is nothing more than a side show amusement.
What is the truth of the matter, the Open Source movement is always hammering on MS for a bug. BUT, the most BASIC of all computing FUCNTIONALITY does NOT work in Linux.
It will not work, because Linux is such a disaster of NON-working programs and applications it would lead to insanity if someone took the challenge on.
In the meantime, Windows performs this fuction with flying colors. It is time for the Open Source movement to put up or shut up!
I think the article was well written and from the best source of news: Reuters.
It is true that the most basic of all computing functions ‘cut and paste’ does not work in Linux.
Great article and good read. I will send to my fellow computing chaps.
CNN is a FUD organization. I don’t expect much from them at all.
you win-trolls sure are energetic today.
Yes, sadly, I have to agree. The developers are far more interested in adding “features” than fixing the stuff they have already written. Buggy features are actually digital booby traps. Things stay broken for *years*. Like Klipper in Kde or the help system in Gnome.
I have volunteered for about two years on open source projects and have observed that the developers are more interested in fiddling with trivial features than actual getting these desktops stable.
This “cut and paste” thing is pure FUD.
Not only was “cut and paste” functionality recently
fixed in Linux (with major toolkits, QT and GTK agree-
ing on a standard), but soon the leading Gnome desktop
will even have a nice File Open dialog, just like that
in Windows 95.
So, stop the FUD!
The only time Ive ever had trouble with cut-n-paste was in Windows. I ususally am booted in to Linux though, so I really can’t say how much it is a problem in Windows.
Of course, no OS can match MacOSX for cut-n-paste. You can paste just about anything on a mac! Ive cut-n-pasted parts of PDFs between completely unrelated apps as images without trouble. Just a part of it! Its no Linux, but its a damn seemless user experience, thats for sure.
This is so strange: makes you wonder if they even tried to run linux in the first place. Cut and paste works fine!
These writers really need an update themselves. Or did they “cut and paste” this article from some one else?
Theres quite a few people on this thread declaring Linux to be an awful desktop. Honestly, whats the point? Why would you spend so much energy trying to make a particular type of OS look so bad? If it were so bad, then nobody would use it anyway, and then there would be no reason to bother proclaiming it. If its not really so awful, then why misrepresent it? That would be dishonest.
It’s bad enough that we have to suffer your lies, exaggerations, insults and other immature shenanigans (I can see that the name-stealing Troll is back, using Tudy’s identity), but can you lay off the all caps? For one, it’s rude, and it also hampers whatever credibility you have left.
Also, I’m pretty sure that the garbage coming from IPs 209.234.160.— and IP: 168.143.113.— are from the same troll (the aforementioned name-stealing Troll). Please just ignore him, as his only aim is to provoke reactions. It’s probably some 13-year old who doesn’t have any friends and who considers trolling Linux threads for entertainment. If we don’t respond to him he’ll eventually get bored and just go away.
Alternatively, you can do like I’ve sometimes done and answer all of his posts, provoking him to write back. This will bog him down in this specific thread, freeing people in other Linux threads from his childish antics.
I disagree. KDE 3.2 offers a better desktop experience than Windows XP, being on par with OS X.
If KDE is on par with OS X then I’ll stay away from both OS X and Linux on the desktop.
If the author was referring to copy/pasting of images and/or objects, then he might arguably have a point, as it’s not always well-implemented.
Thats what I was talking about. Its not nearly as simple as windows is right now.
Text ? Sure it works but I copy more than just text between applications.
Nope. Nearly anything that can be done through the command line can be done through a GUI. It’s really a matter of personal choice, not capability.
I hear this all the time and then I find myself in a terminal editing config files. Hmmm. Maybe linux just isn’t ready for my desktop.
! istaller app., 1 controll panel, 1 place to put programs.
Ok how often have you decided to switch distos, & had to do something you have done in your previous distro a differant?
You will never find consistency In Linux if developers can’t agree on and adhere to standards. That’s why Macs have always been easy to use: consistent and stringent enforcement of design and use standards. Linux has no way of enforcing standards, so hoping for effective and consistent Linux desktops may be a waste of time. Right now, it seems that every desktop development team wants to go their own way.
Again, there is no value in giving a user a “choice” of where to find, e.g., the “file save” dialog. Having it located in different places in different applications is not a choice, its a nuisance.
Clones of old application do not add to choice. How could they when they simply copy what is already available? It’s no more of a choice than deciding which fastfood hamburger to buy.
Open source spread code around among developers, but it does consumers and users no good unless those developers create something original on their own, rather than playing with existing code for their own purposes.
If you are satisfied with the lack of innovatoin in open source, so be it. However, without innovation, there’s little reason for users to abandon a satisfactory platform for another. I.e., if Linux offers nothing new, why switch?
Excellent respone there Enloop. Linux is a ‘nuisance’ of NON-working applications, segmentation faults, and most of all lack of FUNCTIONALITY. This is why Linux is only used on about 1% of all desktops.
The Apple Operating system is 100 times better than anything from the Open (wacko) Source group.
My problems with Linux, segmenation faults, non-working applications, patching, patching, and more patching to find out now you have another bug or app problem.
It is like a nightmare of NON-working apps, and the Linux cultist think it is cool to have non-working features.
To me Linux is like a used car, that constantly needs repair 24/7 as soon it works right something else breaks. It is a real ‘nuisance’ to sum it up.
:::PROUD TO BE FROM THE BIRTHLAND OF WINDOWS:::
Wow.
You don’t even know how to secure a LAN of 120 Windows PC’s. Ever hear of SMS?
Your uncle got you the job, right?
Moron.
once again, windows trolls out in force.
@enloop: the mac standards you are talking about is because people follow their HIG. have you tried gnome 2.4.x yet? most of their work over the past twelve months is to enforce their HIG, and the results show. that argument has been a non-issue for quite awhile now.
@ mr. :::PROUD TO BE FROM THE BIRTHLAND OF WINDOWS:::
linux apps have more functionality then windows apps, in fact, far more so. it is just idiots like you who cant figure them out, then claim they just dont work. you attempt to cover your own ineptitude by saying that the huge wealth of free software that open source developers have allowed you to use is a “nuicence”. your lack of knowledge in what you are talking about is also astounding. “he Apple Operating system is 100 times better than anything from the Open (wacko) Source group.” really? it may be a shock to you to learn that the “Apple Operating System” (which is actually known as Mac OSX, but hey, if i corrected you on everything you say i would be writing this all day) is an opensource product. those “Open (wacko) Source group”s you are talking about include companies such as IBM, Novell, Sun Microsystems, and Hewlett-Packard, who are leaders in industrys where buggy microsoft products just dont cut it. In fact, the only use for microsoft products are for people who are too stupid to learn how to use a computer, yet too poor to buy a mac.
…see, i can troll too. honestly, i think im better at it then you, i just perfer to write actual comments then just to waste everyones time. however, your trolling skills really leave something to be desired, so i took this opertunity for a little instruction.
Where are all the trolls sneaking in from…
It’s articles like this that remind me of just how many ignorant people there really are in this world…
My version:
“As never before, corporate customers are turning to Linux software instead of Microsoft Windows to run big business operations because they can’t get the basic features of the Windows OS to work.”
If you are satisfied with the lack of innovatoin in open source, so be it.
Innovation is nothing more than a buzzword. Often innovative ideas lead nowhere – just think of Microsoft Bob!
Most of the “innovation” brought on by MS are merely re-engineering of things that already existed.
Meanwhile, the KDE desktop offers much more features than the Windows Desktop. It offers better integration between “K” apps and a very powerful architecture beneath them all.
But the most innovative aspect of Linux is its design – or rather evolution – process. The fact that it is free (in all senses of the word). The fact that, unlike Windows, it adheres to standards instead of trying to subvert them.
Yes, not everyone pulls in the same direction. But that’s called competition. The good projects will live, the bad ones will die. That’s why we talk of evolution. Maybe it’s not for you, but personally I think it’s the most exciting thing to happen to computing in a long, long time.
Name-Stealing Troll
I see I’ve hit a nerve…
‘I’m curious, what else do you copy between applications?’
You obviously don’t do any DTP. For a lot of tasks this stupid problem wastes so much time that it’s quicker to reboot into Windows. 20 years ago the Apple Lisa let you copy an image in it’s drawing app and paste it into the word processor. Yet I can’t build up a graphics heavy OpenOffice document by copying and pasting from GIMP in 2004?
‘Would you care to give an example of stuff which you absolutely have to use the command line for?’
Configuring my graphics card’s settings. In Windows my card’s advanced features are added as a tab on the display control panel. In Linux I have to quit X and edit a config file to change settings. While in Windows they can be changed with a couple of mouse clicks.
I know that there are often graphical frontends available, but even when they exist I still think Windows almost always has an advantage. The frontends for Linux have no consistent look and feel, while control panels in Windows are all found in the same location and have a consistent look, with tooltips and online help. Control panels in Windows are supplied by the hardware manufacturer, while graphical frontends in Linux are often unsupported hacks with terrible documentation IME.
Linux is great for a lot of things, I’ve just set up an old Celeron as an MP3 player and server. It was really easy to share my internet connection to the different PCs and XMMS is a decent player with the gapless plugin. But there’s no way I could live with Linux on my main desktop. All the little problems and annoyances like the poor dual headed display support and inconsistent apps would drive me nuts. In a lot of ways Windows is still a far superior desktop OS.
You guys do know that Linux is a kernel, not an Operating System, also OO.o is not exclusive to UNIX come on people. Eugina I mean no disrespect, but why even post this articles they are obviously written by malinformed ‘Journalists’ if you could even call them that.
PS: Thanks the Lindows ISO
.
‘@enloop: the mac standards you are talking about is because people follow their HIG. have you tried gnome 2.4.x yet? most of their work over the past twelve months is to enforce their HIG, and the results show. that argument has been a non-issue for quite awhile now.’
Gnome’s HIG are pretty much a waste of space when most of the software available for Linux doesn’t follow them. I suppose if you can live with nothing but KDE apps on KDE or nothing but Gnome apps on Gnome then you get the same consistent experience as Windows/Mac. But that would heavily limit the available software, a lot of the best apps line OpenOffice don’t use either DE’s HIG.
Windows and even Mac OS aren’t perfectly consistent, but with a mix of apps based on different toolkits Linux is a total mess and a usability disaster IMO.
The original article might refer to the fact that linux could do 98% of what windows could do, yet that last 2% is the true barrier.
In real life, this 98%/2% thing is not uncommon, like
2% of photographers get 98% of business, and the rest of the 98% ( majority ) of the photographers, fight for the 2% of business.
lin-zealots just could not deal with any criticism, as any such things is either troll, half-true or an “out right lie”.
For a non-geek user, it is often that 2% that matters, not the extra that linux/oss desktops offer.
Please re-read my post. I asked “what else do you copy between applications” after talking about text, images, and files.
Configuring my graphics card’s settings. In Windows my card’s advanced features are added as a tab on the display control panel. In Linux I have to quit X and edit a config file to change settings. While in Windows they can be changed with a couple of mouse clicks.
Well, it depends what you want to change. Changing resolutions (including TwinView support) is now done directly from KDE, and the resize/rotate is done on-the-fly. You can usually also change resolutions from the distro’s control panel (such as the Mandrake Control Center). Not only that, but the new NVIDIA driver come with an installer that automatically updates your XF86Config-4 file. It also has a GUI setup tool.
Anything else?
The frontends for Linux have no consistent look and feel, while control panels in Windows are all found in the same location and have a consistent look,
Actually, you can now set up nearly everything through KDE and/or Webmin. So having two interfaces (one being a web interface) isn’t too hard. Meanwhile, not all Windows configuration tools have a consistent interface. So this is a false problem, IMO.
All the little problems and annoyances like the poor dual headed display support
I don’t know what you’re talking about. I use TwinView and it works great. I do know that if you use Dual Head, you are limited in capacity by the weakest card. But it still works well, in my view.
In a lot of ways Windows is still a far superior desktop OS.
In Linux is superior in a lot of other ways. To each his own.
Still the Fact remains, Reuters is one of the most trusted names in news. Another fact CNN is one of the most trusted names in news.
TO THE MAIN POINT:
If this was about Windows, it would be ok for the Linux users to bash MS and it would be fine and dandy. But since this is Linux, anything that is wrong with the Operating system or problems with it, gets swept under a rug.
It is very ironic that the ‘Open Source’ group states they are open to ideas, when in reality if it does not work they don’t care or even fix it.
Anyways, it is only used by about 1% to 2% of the desktop market, so it does not matter. But, it is so TRUE that if it is a Windows bug or whatnot they raise the roof on it…
‘Actually, you can now set up nearly everything through KDE and/or Webmin. So having two interfaces (one being a web interface) isn’t too hard. Meanwhile, not all Windows configuration tools have a consistent interface. So this is a false problem, IMO.’
WRONG: In Linux the KDE or Webmin does NOT make the user interface the same. If it did this would be a mute point.
SECOND: What Windows Config tool are you talking about, all of the Windows interfaces are the same, you must be using 95 or something. Try using Windows 2003 Server/WinXP Pro/Win2K…
Do NOT post false comments on here about Windows, Archie.
It is very ironic that the ‘Open Source’ group states they are open to ideas, when in reality if it does not work they don’t care or even fix it.
Any idea as long as it says linux is great.
Any choice, as long as it is linux.
Any hardware, as long as it is linux compatible.
Basically, you have choices, but your choices are not really determined by you, but by lin/oss-zealots.
Hello Rockwell.
Hmm. How adult. Is that all you happened to get from my comment. Must have been the Micro$crap WinTrash is the Fisher-Price (TM) of operating systems comment. Good. I stand by that comment.
No. I know how to secure my machines. This one just caught me by surprise. I am just a bit tired of digging, and digging, and digging, ad infinitum ad nauseum into the AD structure to secure a feature that “SHOULD NOT” be associated with the Help Menu in any capacity. But I guess idiocy is the Micro$crap Way. BTW, someone did grow a brain and ad a reporting feature in Server 2003 that is nice – wonder who they “borrowed” the idea from?
I am converting people to Linux on the personal level in my private business. Once they get used to a better way of computing – they have stuck to it and thank me. BTW, Linux is making me money.
Troy
‘It also has a GUI setup tool.’
Can you provide a link to that? I don’t think it existed when I was using Linux on my desktop.
‘Actually, you can now set up nearly everything through KDE’
That wasn’t my experience. Maybe that’s true for basic things like screen resolution, but not for many features specific to hardware devices. Mandrake’s configuration tools were much more comprehensive than KDE’s, yet I still had to configure a lot of things with config files or hunt for other frontends.
‘Meanwhile, not all Windows configuration tools have a consistent interface. So this is a false problem, IMO.’
Maybe you could give a couple of examples? I’m sure that’s true for some Windows config tools, but that’s not something I’ve encountered in Windows. I’ve certainly never used a Windows control panel as bad as most of the Linux GUI frontends I had to deal with. Most of the time it was easier and safer to edit the config files rather than messing with someone’s semi-functional configuration hack.
‘I use TwinView and it works great.’
Maybe you can tell me how I can make the relative position of the displays match the physical position of the monitors? My smaller 17″ monitor is placed lower than my main 21″ monitor and I want to mimic that arrangement on screen. In Windows I just drag the monitor graphics in the display control panel, how can I do it in Linux?
I also had problems with dead areas due to the lower resolution of the second screen. Often apps would think that the vertical resolution of the 17″ monitor was the same as the 21″ and would put toolbars and windows partially off the edge of the screen. Also some full screen games and multimedia apps thought that it was one large screen and tried to spread the app over both monitors. There was also a significant drop in performance with TwinView turned on.
‘In Linux is superior in a lot of other ways.’
It’s hard for me to imagine advantages big enough to make up for for all the problems Linux has as a desktop OS. I stuck with Linux as my main desktop OS for about 2 weeks before I realised that I was torturing myself for no reason. Booting back into Windows was absolute bliss after the constant frustration with Linux’s many problems.
I have tried to use ‘Linux’ as my main desktop operating system to.
THE FACTS ARE:
I wound up using CITRIX ALL THE TIME.
So what advantage is Windows, when the ENTERPRISE ‘web based’ applications REQUIRE ‘Internet Explorer’ to work correclty?
I know of other associates I work with who tried to use Linux at work and went back to Windows. It was too much hassle and too frustration!
Trust me I know!
> Cut and paste work just fine in OpenOffice, Abiword, and KWord. I’ve never seen cut and paste fail on these word processors.
C&P didn’t work in Open Office 1.0 on the PPC platform (on Yellow Dog, at least). But YDL and PPC represents such a tiny sliver of the market, I can’t imagine how this bug could be cited as representative of Open Source in general.
The article didn’t seem particularly balanced, did it?
Can you provide a link to that? I don’t think it existed when I was using Linux on my desktop.
You have to install the 4620 drivers. This installs a binary called “nvidia-settings” in /usr/bin. Note that, for some reason, this is not included in the latest version of the driver – however, you can still use it with the 5328 – just make a copy of nvidia-settings and recopy it into /usr/bin once the drivers are installed.
I found a screenshot here:
http://web.njit.edu/~dpw2/nvidia-settings.jpg
Maybe you could give a couple of examples?
Just open a couple of control panels at random in Windows 2000: Add/Remove Programs is not consistent with Add/Remove Hardware, which is not consistent with Display properties, which is not consistent with Users and Password, which is not consistent with the Management Tool, etc.
Now factor in preferences tools for such programs as IE, Outlook Express, Lotus Notes, Adobe Photoshop, etc. They all follow different guidelines. KDE control panels are more consistent, IMO. And with such things as KDE Mission Control, they are very newbie friendly.
Not that this matters much. I mean, interfaces for video games are different from one another (in fact, they make a point of being very different, although they have to follow a certain set of guidelines) and yet people manage to learn them and not complain. As long as interfaces are intuitive, consistency is a minor issue.
Maybe you can tell me how I can make the relative position of the displays match the physical position of the monitors? My smaller 17″ monitor is placed lower than my main 21″ monitor and I want to mimic that arrangement on screen.
Personally, I’ve learned to edit XF86Config-4 by hand, so I would just follow the instructions in the downloadable Nvidia PDF manual. Perhaps it can be done from the GUI tool as well, I haven’t tried. I’m pretty certain it’s possible, though.
I also had problems with dead areas due to the lower resolution of the second screen. Often apps would think that the vertical resolution of the 17″ monitor was the same as the 21″ and would put toolbars and windows partially off the edge of the screen.
All I know is that KDE 3.2 never puts any apps in the dead areas, and that it correctly places toolbars. TwinView support has greatly improved in KDE (I can’t talk for GNOME or other WMs).
There was also a significant drop in performance with TwinView turned on.
There is a similar drop of performance when I use TwinView under Windows.
It’s hard for me to imagine advantages big enough to make up for for all the problems Linux has as a desktop OS.
I feel the same way about Windows. Coming home to my Linux desktop is like a reward after spending all day in Win2K.
@RMS – you know, i wonder if its just the way i use linux or something that i just dont run into these problems (btw, i dont think you should have been moded down either) i have had pretty much the opposit experience, i find KDE hampering, not from bugginess but from lack of real customizability when it comes to the way i work with it. i find the overall look of gnome much improved over that of any other linux desktop, while kde almost had a patchwork feel, in gnome i found everything was arranged the same and looked the same, or at least enough so to allow for the intuitivness that exists in other operating systems. maybe its the version? i wouldnt recommend > 2.4 to anyones….
also, when it comes to your comments about QA, there was a recent restructuring of the gnome “hierarchy” to allow for the input from outside corporate sources who have recently taken a bigger interest in the project (such as sun). professional QA is in place, as is usability tests from sun and other groups out there.
quite honestly, i know that the api in kde is far superior to that of gnome, but not only do i find that more interesting tech is coming from gnome these days, but in linux, the overall feel of the applications is far more cohesive then that of kde.
@JK
the HIGs are not just a waste of paper, if you actually read them you will find that there is very little in the way of gnome apps that do not follow those guidelines. the widgets have had an overhaul in recent versions, and almost everything follows the guidelines there too. perhaps you were using an older version of gnome when you formed this opinion, i alwas thought the same thing. awhile back i installed fedora, and didnt realise i was in gnome by default. the first thing i noticed was the login looked alot nicer then i was used to, that was the gdm. then when i logged in and started using it, i kept thinking “Wow, this version of kde rocks!” took me about ten minutes to figure out i wasnt in kde anymore, and i havnt looked back since.
A friend of mine worked for Reuters for about a year. Journalists are human beings, they are prone to make mistakes, especially when working with tight deadlines. This, I think, is a good example of the failability of tech reporters.
not “i wouldnt recommend greater then 2.4 to anyone” that should be less then
if you rely on CNN for accurate and objective news, i truly pity you.
The Linux kernel is solid! (IMHO) But the rest of the stuff is really a mess. The article is 100% correct! But this is a good thing. Kind like “AL”, the good software will survive and the bad will die… (The only problem now is getting the megacorps to stop stranding there tankers in the Open software seas)
There will never be a “Linux” for the desktop as long as there are tons of distros.
PS. I think the biggest problem with the distros are that they do too much, install too much software. Help the lusers by giving them less. Back to floppy distros! 🙂
Copy an avi file with a codec not installed on the system (or a broken avi) in to a folder that shows the file resolution or has preview turned on. Enjoy burning in your CPU! File preview is evil and should not be allowed in any filemanager! 🙂
Matt: No Windows troll here. I use Linux, and have for several years. My comments reflect what I see as reality. And, I agree about Gnome. It’s good because, within Gnome, they adhere to standards. The problem is this: No single set of standards exists that everyone adheres to across the board. I think that is necessary. Right now, the situation in Linux is analagous to what it would be in the MS or Apple worlds if the business app developers went one way and the multimedia developers followed other standards.
Archie Steel: Don’t believe I said Microsoft was a fountain of innovation. And, I want argue about who has more features, KDE or Windows (why waste time counting?) Features are not the point. It’s consistency of design across features, applications, and desktop environments that we’re talking about. E.g., a Linux distribution might include 1000 apps that all save files, but if they all save files in a different fashion, then a user needs to remember 1000 different ways to do that. That’s not good. And I’ll have to disagree with you that the Linux “process” drives innovation. Judging by results measured in terms of new kinds of applications, it isn’t any more innovative than the next OS. (I know you said that process was innovative in and of itself. Perhaps, discounting the decades-old precedent of Unix. But, even so, that’s an innovation that users can’t use.)
‘the HIGs are not just a waste of paper, if you actually read them you will find that there is very little in the way of gnome apps that do not follow those guidelines.’
And if you had actually read my post, maybe you wouldn’t have totally missed my point. I’ll repeat myself; Gnome apps may follow the guidelines, but all the other apps available for Linux don’t. That includes many of the best apps such as OpenOffice. Unless you’re happy to stick with nothing but Gnome apps the Gnome HIG will not provide a consistent UI.
Copy an avi file with a codec not installed on the system (or a broken avi) in to a folder that shows the file resolution or has preview turned on.
I get that all the time on my Win2K box at home – it’s very annoying. I don’t have that problem with video previews in KDE, BTW.