Tudy Parghel sent us a link to the first part of Tom’s Hardware’s migration guide. It starts you down the path of migrating from Windows to Linux.
Migrating from Windows to Linux, Part 1: Preparation
About The Author
Adam Scheinberg
Technology Executive • Web Developer • Father • Foodie • Music Snob • OS enthusiast
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“Migrating from Linux to Windows” articles???
When linux has the majority of the market. But, it will probably Linux to some new OS, not MS.
Will someone please explain what is so difficult about debian? I’ve installed it on 4 seperate computers and saw nothing wrong with the installation, and apt-get is just wonderful… what’s so hard?
what’s so hard?
It *used* to be somewhat hard. It’s just the rep it’s lived with since, from people who haven’t actually tried.
its different that’s all. It’s liek figuring out a new remote for your tv. takes time but can be done.
Debian is great, I use it on my machines primarily. But having said that, for a newcomer to Linux Debian Pure is not the first Linux Distro that comes to mind. The install is still not as friendly as the other distros mentioned in the article, hardware detection and configuration can be tricky if not picked up right. Basically if a newcomer tries this as his/her first distro and fails after several attempts that could put them off linux permanantly. Rather than that, I personally would recommend easier more user friendly distros BASED on Debian, like Mepis, Libranet,Lindows, Xandros etc.
You have most of the benfits of apt-get and a great Debian system but in a much more user friendly package for the newcomer, so that the switch to linux will be a joy as opposed to a nightmare.
Unfortunately many Linux guru’s forget that not everyone is a Network Admin and wants to spend hours editing their X11 config files just to get the video up.
Debian is great distro for the more experienced user or someone who has time on their hands to play aorund for abit. But for the novice who just wants a problem free and easy alternative to MS there are easier Debian Based options ou there.
“Migrating from Linux to Windows” articles??? ”
Never, since there is no need for Preparation, or
step 1,2,3,4,5 …. Just stick in the Windows CD
tried a digital camera on linux and gtkam crashed,
since gtk would not allow percentage outside 0 and 1.0
yet gtkam tried to set 50.0 (for 50%) …
so, download latest gtkam src, and ./configure
told libgphoto is too old
load new libgphoto src, ./configure
told libusb, libexif too old
ran rpm to check libexif, and it is the latest
check configure scripts, huh, it need libexif-gtk
wget libexif-gtk src
./configure –prefix=/usr ; make ; make install
loop for N times,
start new gtkam, it is SO ugly, user unfriendly and
it crashed after 3 min ….
How to you teach an average joe to do all of these and
at the end let them conclude these are actually better than
click click click on windows ????
For me I’d like to see an article that truly gives good reasons to switch. This article starts off with Crashes, viruses and headaches. Leading you to believe if you switch from Windows to Linux you will have no more crashes, viruses or headaches. I’ve been using Linux since about 1998 and aside from viruses there’s plenty of crashes and headaches with Linux. As for viruses, I know I’ve never had one the entire time I’ve used Windows, can say they same for everyone I know that uses Windows; so I don’t see that as a reason for switching over either. About the only reason most people give is that so much stuff is free, but I’ve found just as much free software on Windows; you just have to look. The big free apps that people speak of (Mozilla, OpenOffice, Apache) are all available on Windows; as are free CD burning software, music software, graphics software, etc. So aside from the religious hatred of Microsoft, I never hear a good argument to switch over if you’re just a casual computer user.
I think the article is good and basic for a newbie. Most people who use linux or a windows Power user , will prolly know how to search for Music, and export their email settings.. or just use web basd e-mail. On thing they could have mentioned in the article are the ever growing Live CD Distros (knoppix) which have all the free software and basic harware detection already built in. I know the article is for a user transfer.
I think that they should have mentioned knoppix and using a shared drive, for a time before 100% switching over. One thing to mention are they intending to install on a Fat32 drive, because they mention about creating a Folder,
Migration folder
1. Make a folder to hold all of your files to be migrated. a. Make subfolders
b. Use all lower-case names
c. No spaces
But thru my knowledge of newbie users, and Linux, Most will Format the drive to RiserFS, EXT2, and EXT3 and usually want to parttion the drive for “/” “Swap” “/Home” and more advantced “/Etc” “/src” etc..
// Distros like Xandros will auto partition a drive so data is saved, but they need to inform people about how dangerous a linux installer can be, by doing things without prompt. But if later, the article mentions this, all will be forgotten.. \
— Information, for the Digital age,
Canadian, Iam.
Talking about religious zealots, you are absolutely right, there can be no other reason than religious hatred of Microsoft to use anything other than Windows….
Why are you so against this type of article? Linux doesn’t need much (if any) knowledge these days to install and setup basic stuff like email, net browsing, listening to cd’s etc. If you come to think of it, many people only do these daily tasks mentioned above. Ok, they may want to plug their digital cameras (most are suported) and maybe to watch a DVD (lindows has DVD software for sale in their CNR warehouse, although not everybody has a dvd-rom, so maybe joe would not care bout DVD playing).
For example, I plug my Minolta Z1 and it shows up on my desktop in Lindows, I can find it in “HOME” in xandros, mandrake and others, and there is GIMP for free.
Personally, I keep windows only because I do dvd authoring and can’t live without nero for cd/dvd burning needs.
Want to talk about games? There are a few already for linux without the need for winex (one of my favorites, Wolfenstein ET), anyway, enough to keep people busy for a while.
Oh, did I say that security is less an issue in Linux??
So basically, Linux is *almost* ready for *switchers* (we might ask them to write of it for publicity, like apple did:)
This kind of articles do more damage than good for the whole “linux on the desktop” thing. “Crashes, viruses and headaches. You have had it with Windows”, this is just not a serious statement anymore…
After reading the first section “Crashes, viruses and headaches. You have had it with Windows and you want to switch to Linux.” I quit reading the article because its the typical zealot junk. There is no reason to include that kind of comment in article about migration. Its time people get over the anti-ms stuff and get on with life.
I agree with you, one of the main reasons I run linux is script writing, (I dont like cygwin that much), virtual desktops make developing code easer IMHO and are the default on linux distro’s, and to start programming in a language I just have to apt-get a compiler. None of these reasons are valid for the average joe.
The reason why I no longer use commercial Operating System, is that I do not see the need to splurge money on something I could have for free.
It may not be for everyone, but for a small business, or a penny pincher like myself, it is an ideal solution.
Re: Debian and Switch
Will someone please explain what is so difficult about debian? I’ve installed it on 4 seperate computers and saw nothing wrong with the installation, and apt-get is just wonderful… what’s so hard
I haven’t personally tried Debian, but I have used Debian-based distros. The challenge I have had with apt-get is that often the program I was looking for was either not in the repository at all or the version that was there was very old. So, then you have to go hunting for apt-sources and once you find one, you hope and pray that what you’re about to install doesn’t break something else. I mean, it’s a good idea, but the execution needs a little work.
For me I’d like to see an article that truly gives good reasons to switch. This article starts off with Crashes, viruses and headaches. Leading you to believe if you switch from Windows to Linux you will have no more crashes, viruses or headaches.
Yes, and it also assumes that anybody who uses Windows has these problems, and a lot of us don’t. In fact, my XP and 2K boxes run smoother than a baby’s arse. I’m not saying that Linux wouldn’t also, but that is simply not a good reason for me to switch – just to have something that I already have. And even if you do have those problems in Windows, it would probably be easier to learn how to ‘tame’ Windows (I could show you in about 20 minutes) so that those problems go away than it would be to switch to an entirely different OS.
What I want to know is, besides this whole “Windows is buggy/insecure and M$ is evil”, what else do you have? For example, if you say free alternatives are better than proprietary ones, then show me what free alternatives you have that are better than, say Dreamweaver, and explain specifically why the free alternative(s) is better .. what specifically can it do that Dreamweaver can’t? See what I mean?
There is no reason to include that kind of comment in article about migration. Its time people get over the anti-ms stuff and get on with life.
I agree. I’m not saying you shouldn’t have it, but anyone reading an article like this is probably more interested in switching than looking for reasons to switch.
If you’re afraid of debian, but want to try out linux, give Knoppix a try. I use it as a desktop at home. Synaptic works great for updating software and the installation time is about 10 minutes on a celeron 1ghz with 52x cdrom. Runs like a dream on 256mb ram (Harddrive install.)
“I’m not saying you shouldn’t have it, but anyone reading an article like this is probably more interested in switching than looking for reasons to switch.”
Hm, might this be the reason that one sentence, that is supposed to start the article and catch the readers interest, is devoted to the issue of why someone should switch?
This article aims to provide a guide for people who want to try out Linux, for what ever reason they chose to do so. But a lot of people simply seem to ignore this and focus exlusivly on one sentence.
Besides, there are a lot of reasons why people might want to use linux. Maybe they just want to try something new and believe it or not, there are people who have issues with crashes and viruses.
What allways strikes me as odd is, that MS seems to have succeeded in convincing people that there only should be one OS. Just imagine an article in a car magazine about what you should consider before buying a BMW and people complaining about zealots because Mercedes makes great cars and there is no need for BMW. Silly.
P.S.: In case anyone in wondering about the IP:
Sorry this whole range of IPs is banned. We are sorry if this banning has an impact on other users too who have nothing to do with the offender.
I use Linux for peace of mind.
When the blaster worm came out I was running around my office like a chicken with it’s head cut off because I have to go up dating virus scan software etc.
For the home user to be honest most reasoning for going to Linux can be thrown out the Window. Most home users just boot up their PC’s, surf the web a little, check e-mail etc and that is about it. So it’s rare to get worms or viruses etc.
But I work in the US government and with people who have their PC’s on 24/7 (Because they need to be up to have patches pushed out at night.) Unless they have their 2000 or XP installs locked down to where they can’t install apps or anything. And then still you need domain based GPO’s to keep the machines tight from attack. Give someone admin privlages (Which you have to do for developers because you can like in Linux install a whole app in the users home directory so they need read and write to program files and then temp and then the registry etc, etc, etc.) And your whole security design is up for grabs. (What a mess!)
And you are right that there are no native apps as good a dreamweaver. But I can use Crossover Office (Which you can buy or comes in Xandros Pro and Business which I use) to run that when I need it till a native version comes out.
See the thing here that matters the most is that Microsoft and Microsoft users etc are talking about Linux which started in someones dorm room. I mean if Windows was as good as it claims to be then why does MS even worry about Linux, let Windows speak for it’s self. Problem is Windows does speak for it’s self and it says “I suck” I come from a 50 billion dollar company and a am just a little better then the free OS created in a dorm room. LOL!
Right now the only things holding Linux back are “Money, Age and Sco.” Remember Linux is being supported by companies that MS was supposed to have killed a long time ago (Like Novell) So why is this even an issue to MS?? Must be something to it!
But right now I am in a office of Windows users and I am using Xandros. I use crossover office to run Outlook and I use Star office for everything else. I use FireFox to browse and I can connect to Windows servers etc. No reason to use Windows for everything. I keep my machine firewalled off so all is well!
What I want to know is, besides this whole “Windows is buggy/insecure and M$ is evil”, what else do you have?
For strictly technical reasons, there aren’t a ton:
– I can’t stand having to reboot my comptuer because “An application has this file locked so you can’t open it”.
– You can actually fix a broken Linux install.
Less techincal:
– I find Linux[0] easier to do ‘magic’ on, like fixing a broken install, cleaning things up, etc. You can do them in Windows, but it always seems to be difficult, or requires I pay someone for software to get it done.
– While there are free apps in Windows-land, they’re commonly ad/spy-ware ridden, shareware, or poorly written (to my UNIX sensibilities). Why pay for something you can (legally) get for free?
– I don’t trust Microsoft to protect my data from hackers or protect my privacy. There have been 10 patches in the last few months that could let people into my system, most of which are part of IE so they can’t be fixed using firewalls or by turning services off.
[0] When I say Linux, I mean FOSS.
I think switching from Windows to Linux for security and stability are valid reasons to mention in the article. Those are two of the reasons I switched. The other big reason was “Free Software” in general. Before I switched my Win2000 install would lose my soundcard driver everytime I rebooted, which was often. Updates are a pain to do, rebooting 5 or 6 times just to install updates. Paying a subsciption for an anti-virus scanner is insanity. I wouldn’t be surprised if Symantec and McAfee were the ones who wrote the viruses! Linux has taken care of those problems for me. No more rebooting, or hard resets when it freezes. No more pains when updating. No more magical disappearing sound card driver. No more money being extorted by virus scanner companies.
Why would I really want leave Windows, especially if I’m running XP? Articles like these should concentrate more on doubling booting Windows and Linux than waste time formatting and having reinstall and all that crap. And if say Windows XP is crap because of all of the instabilities concerning security, then its your fault because you are not enabling automatic updates and its possible that you are running a pirated copy.
Ralph
Hm, might this be the reason that one sentence, that is supposed to start the article and catch the readers interest, is devoted to the issue of why someone should switch?
Maybe, but the way it starts is based on what could be a faulty assumption (that the reader is having these types of problems) and therefore you have the potential of alienating a good chunk of your audience. I don’t suppose a lot of people who are on tomshardware.com are people who are going to fit this description.
Besides, there are a lot of reasons why people might want to use linux. Maybe they just want to try something new and believe it or not, there are people who have issues with crashes and viruses.
In this case, instead of starting off with ‘Crashes, viruses and headaches. You have had it with Windows and you want to switch to Linux.’, why not say ‘Whether you are tired of stability/security problems with Windows or you just want to try something new …’
What allways strikes me as odd is, that MS seems to have succeeded in convincing people that there only should be one OS.
My personal preference is to use one OS if possible. Not necessarily because MS said so, but because constantly rebooting the machine to jump from one OS to the other (or constantly having to boot an emulator) can be a pain in the backside.
Just imagine an article in a car magazine about what you should consider before buying a BMW and people complaining about zealots because Mercedes makes great cars and there is no need for BMW. Silly.
Since you followed up with this right after saying ‘What allways strikes me as odd is, that MS seems to have succeeded in convincing people that there only should be one OS.’, are you trying to argue that people should drive two different cars?
Tyrone Miles
And you are right that there are no native apps as good a dreamweaver. But I can use Crossover Office (Which you can buy or comes in Xandros Pro and Business which I use) to run that when I need it till a native version comes out.
Maybe, but this still doesn’t satisfy the argument when people swear up and down that open source software is better than proprietary.
MattPie
– I find Linux[0] easier to do ‘magic’ on, like fixing a broken install, cleaning things up, etc. You can do them in Windows, but it always seems to be difficult, or requires I pay someone for software to get it done.
I find the best solution in Windows is preventitive maintenance – ie, if you don’t f**k up something major, you don’t have to worry about fixing it. There are indeed specific things you can do (or not do) to keep Windows running smoothly, so problems like this (usually) don’t come up.
To be honest, I don’t know much about fixing Windows. But if something comes up that needs fixing and I can’t (which is very rare for me), I can simply Ghost the hard drive and be back up and running in about 15 minutes with a clean system.
– While there are free apps in Windows-land, they’re commonly ad/spy-ware ridden, shareware, or poorly written (to my UNIX sensibilities). Why pay for something you can (legally) get for free?
No arguemtns here, but then again .. show me a free program that’s better than Dreamweaver, or Cubase, or MPEG VCR, or …
Free software is only as good as it is compared to whatever closed source alternative
it is meant to replace. If it does the job (eg – I love Firefox and Thunderbird), then great. If it doesn’t, then you have to make a decision – which is more important, your ideals or increased functionaliyt?
– I don’t trust Microsoft to protect my data from hackers or protect my privacy. There have been 10 patches in the last few months that could let people into my system, most of which are part of IE so they can’t be fixed using firewalls or by turning services off.
Simple solution – don’t use IE!
Abraxas
I think switching from Windows to Linux for security and stability are valid reasons to mention in the article.
Honestly, I don’t think stability (at least on the desktop) is really an issue anymore with 2k/XP. If you want to claim otherwise, you’re just going to look stupid to most of it.
As for security, an insecure OS that can be made secure isn’t necessarily a problem. I think you could get away with saying that Linux is more secure out of the box, but you shouldn’t go on the assumption that anyone using Windows has security problems.
“Just imagine an article in a car magazine about what you should consider before buying a BMW and people complaining about zealots because Mercedes makes great cars and there is no need for BMW. Silly.
Since you followed up with this right after saying ‘What allways strikes me as odd is, that MS seems to have succeeded in convincing people that there only should be one OS.’, are you trying to argue that people should drive two different cars?”
Nope. As you had probably figured out allready I didn’t want to say that.
See the thing here that matters the most is that Microsoft and Microsoft users etc are talking about Linux which started in someones dorm room. I mean if Windows was as good as it claims to be then why does MS even worry about Linux, let Windows speak for it’s self. Problem is Windows does speak for it’s self and it says “I suck” I come from a 50 billion dollar company and a am just a little better then the free OS created in a dorm room. LOL!
Someone could argue that Linux is free and has been for many years and yet there are still more computers in the world with Windows installed.
While there are free apps in Windows-land, they’re commonly ad/spy-ware ridden, shareware, or poorly written (to my UNIX sensibilities). Why pay for something you can (legally) get for free?
I think that’s a rather bad generalisation. For every spyware or badly written app you name, I’m sure I could list at least one other that does the same job that isn’t spyware. The quality of free (as in cost) software is as good on Windows as it is anywhere.
I don’t trust Microsoft to protect my data from hackers or protect my privacy. There have been 10 patches in the last few months that could let people into my system, most of which are part of IE so they can’t be fixed using firewalls or by turning services off.
A quick look at any Linux distro site will show that Linux has just as many patches and updates and security vulnerabilities. It’s just that Windows is a bigger target. If you look after your Windows installation, keep it updated (which you can with a couple of mouse clicks) and don’t install or run any apps you don’t trust, you should have a dependable, virus-free and crash-free computing experience.
Personally, I’m looking forward to the next chapters in the series. I’m a Windows user who has recently spent some time broadening my horizons with respect to Linux. I’ve managed to install the OS and play about with the apps that were installed by default, but I haven’t as yet had much luck installing software for myself.
As good an operating system it is, I think it has a little way to go before it can match Windows for ease of use. Linux has made great strides in the past couple of years and I have no doubt that with the dedication of those behind it Linux will become a major competitor in the office and for home users as it already is the server market. I think that is in the interests of computer users everywhere.
And if say Windows XP is crap because of all of the instabilities concerning security, then its your fault because you are not enabling automatic updates and its possible that you are running a pirated copy.
Running automatic updates is not what anyone should be doing. That is a bad practice. You should always know what is going on your machine. Some updates can completely bork your system. I have never run a pirated copy of Windows so there goes your second argument.
Honestly, I don’t think stability (at least on the desktop) is really an issue anymore with 2k/XP. If you want to claim otherwise, you’re just going to look stupid to most of it.
As for security, an insecure OS that can be made secure isn’t necessarily a problem. I think you could get away with saying that Linux is more secure out of the box, but you shouldn’t go on the assumption that anyone using Windows has security problems.
Considering Win2000 froze up on me all the time and lost my soundcard driver on every reboot I would say that stability is still an issue. Tell my brother it isn’t when XP crashes on him. A Windows environment can be made secure but it’s so much of a hassle to get it that way and keep it that way. You need a real hardware firewall, constant updates (which require reboots), a virus scanner with updated definitions, and a third party logging system. Why bother when with Linux my updates come without rebooting, viruses are almost non-existant, and it comes standard with excellent logging capabilities out of the box.
http://www.microsoft.com/serviceproviders/migration/
What some of you are calling political or zealotry can actually be just plain practical.
With Linux (or BSD)it’s rough around the edges and may not be as cute as XP’s Fisher Price theme, but you’re investing in the future. OSS is the future because its something that the whole world can not only use, but contribute to. You think this is political? You think this is religious? Well, if you think about it, it’s just plain good common sense.
Also,you’re deciding you have a choice besides just XP and OS X when you go to the store. Bill and Steve don’t need anymore money anyway. They’re both living quite comfortably. Are you? So save some of your money, because you’re getting a choice which will be either free or at least lower in cost. Common sense.
Much of the world is adopting Linux on the desktop. We (the U.S) will probably be the last ones to do it because of our homegrown monopoly. But the rest of the world is not waiting for us.
“Why are you so against this type of article?”
Because most of the people here have more interest in pimping whatever pet OS they derive their sense of self from, and grasping for any straw they can find to put down the others, than an actual interest in computing.
I would like to add that the windows registry is an illconceived pile of steaming poo. Windows relies on this jumbled mess for everything, if it breaks, expect to reinstall windows, unless by some miracle an automated tool manages diagnose and correct the problem.
In addition, over time the registry gets filled up with worthless and obsolete entries, leading to machine slowdowns and crashes. I would like to meet the person who decided to use an all encompassing registry to store the settings, rather than application, or task specific configuration files.
I agree that windows works fine if you take care of it, and is a necessity for certain things. I do like windows XP, I have it installed on one machine and have taken care of it. it has lasted a year and a half now with no reinstalls. However, I do notice preformance problems now as compared to when it was a fresh install.
Problems like that do not come naturally in linux, thankfully, which is why I use it for all of my everyday tasks.
“Tyrone Miles
And you are right that there are no native apps as good a dreamweaver. But I can use Crossover Office (Which you can buy or comes in Xandros Pro and Business which I use) to run that when I need it till a native version comes out.
Maybe, but this still doesn’t satisfy the argument when people swear up and down that open source software is better than proprietary.”
People say that open source is better but no one says that open source is more mature. Two different things. How long has dreamwearer been around? Years. So have most Windows apps.
By Ethan Taylor (IP: —.as15444.net) – Posted on 2004-03-29 19:15:58
“Someone could argue that Linux is free and has been for many years and yet there are still more computers in the world with Windows installed.”
Yes we could also say that Microsoft has been making OS’s 10 years longer then people have been developing Linux. Meaning 1/2 the world was on Windows before Linux was even thought of. We can also say that MS has always been about making money so they have way better marketing. Both of which are just as true as saying Linux is free.
“A quick look at any Linux distro site will show that Linux has just as many patches and updates and security vulnerabilities. It’s just that Windows is a bigger target.”
The above statement is not true. That is a sad excuse. Yes Microsoft computers are attacked more often because they are a big target. But what does being a big target have to do with the ease of the attack. If they were a big hard target people would attack them less. I mean being a big target does not have anything to do with the fact that you can attack one windows machine and then use that one machine to attack 100’s more. With Millions of Linux machines on the internet running the backbone of the net (DNS, Webservers, Routers and Switches) Why do you not see Linux problems or for that matter Unix problems like Microsoft has? It would be tempting. Take down a bunch of DNS machines running Linux and or websites and the net comes to a crawl! Because it’s not as easy to write a virus to attack Linux machines and take down large numbers the way you can Windows machines. I mean with the ablilty to configure your Linux machine in a million different ways it’s almost impossible to find 2 Linux machines configured the exact same way. But you can find lots of windows machines that are.
Also if you go to Samantec or Macfee and look up the the level of severity for most Linux viruses you will see that 99% of them are low. While you have 100’s of Viruses and Worms (Don’t see many Linux worms) that are high or extra high in Windows!
Tell my brother it isn’t when XP crashes on him.
See above. I promise you that I could set it up for you and if you follow a few simple guidelines and assuming your hardware is good, it will not crash.
A Windows environment can be made secure but it’s so much of a hassle to get it that way and keep it that way.
Not really – takes a few minutes a month for me.
You need a real hardware firewall
You’re better off with one anyway, and they come standard with most any router these days.
constant updates (which require reboots)
Jesus Christ – why are people so hard up about rebooting the system? I mean, it’s like the world is going to end or something if you have to reboot more than once a year. Well, here’s a tip .. anytime you need to reboot, go and take a piss. By the time you get back, it’s done. That wasn’t so hard, was it? And, even when a reboot is required … what is that, once a week at the longest? Unless you’re running a server, this isn’t really a big deal, unless you make it one.
a virus scanner with updated definitions[i]
Any virus scanner worth anything will do those automagically.
[i]and a third party logging system.
I don’t even know what this is.
Why bother when with Linux my updates come without rebooting, viruses are almost non-existant, and it comes standard with excellent logging capabilities out of the box.
Are you saying there’s no work involved in setting up a Linux box? If so, what distro are you using? ?
Byzantium
OSS is the future because its something that the whole world can not only use, but contribute to.
But OSS doesn’t really do much for software companies who are currently paying off the government in order to get laws passed for things like DRM, etc.
You think this is political? You think this is religious?
Sometimes and sometimes not. I’ve always said that if you can offer me up an open source app that’s better than the one I’m using, I’ll start using it immediately. Of course, when you can’t do that and I continue to use my proprietary app, that’s when it usually gets political/religous. And, considering the quality (or lack thereof) of a lot of desktop open source projects, this is usually the rule rather than the exception.
Also,you’re deciding you have a choice besides just XP and OS X when you go to the store.
If what I’m currently using (and I’m talking apps) is the best there is, I’m pretty happy. The only way this argument can hold up is if you say that MS is doing something that prevents better apps from being developed. And if this is the case, what specifically is MS doing that would prevent the open source world from building something better than Dreamweaver?
Bill and Steve don’t need anymore money anyway. They’re both living quite comfortably. Are you? So save some of your money, because you’re getting a choice which will be either free or at least lower in cost. Common sense.
So with our Dreamweaver example, I would be better off choosing free over less functionality? Developing web apps professionally (and I mean something with server side applications, n-tier junk, DHTML, etc), you could save enough time with DW that the app would pay for itself after doing just one job.
One could argue that this runs in Linux, but again – we’re talking free vs proprietary here. Not only at the OS level, but at the application level as well.
Dan G
I would like to add that the windows registry is an illconceived pile of steaming poo. Windows relies on this jumbled mess for everything, if it breaks, expect to reinstall windows, unless by some miracle an automated tool manages diagnose and correct the problem.
No arguments there. But is this really a worse senario than Linux and it’s 3,000,000 configuration files? The advantage with the config files is that they’re more easily fixable. The advantage with the registory is that you rarely don’t have to dick with it unless something goes horribly wrong.
I agree that windows works fine if you take care of it, and is a necessity for certain things. I do like windows XP, I have it installed on one machine and have taken care of it. it has lasted a year and a half now with no reinstalls. However, I do notice preformance problems now as compared to when it was a fresh install.
Yeah, one of the rules in Windows is that you simply cannot install/uninstall a bunch of crap all the time and expect it to run smoothly. So, what I do is I have two different installs of XP on my hard drive, one simply as ‘Test’, where I can install anything I want and re-Ghost, then only installing things on ‘Main’ that I absolutely want to use.
Of course, this is a bit of a pain in the arse, but is minimal compared to the horrors I have encountered with apt-get.
Tyrone Miles
People say that open source is better but no one says that open source is more mature. Two different things. How long has dreamwearer been around? Years. So have most Windows apps.
Honestly, Dreamweaver is really not that old. Probably not as old as some of the open source HTML editors. MS Frontpage is older than DW, and DW is still better by a long shot.
Forgot the first part of my last response:
Abraxas
Considering Win2000 froze up on me all the time and lost my soundcard driver on every reboot I would say that stability is still an issue.
Well, if you’re using cheap hardware and/or crappy drivers (probably the latter on your case), you’re going to have that kind of problem in ANY OS.
Tell my brother it isn’t when XP crashes on him.
See above ….
that no one has commented on the article yet?
Why is it that evertime an article like this comes up people start screaming how great Windows is and how terrible Linux is?
Don’t those people ever get tired?
Here is a suggestion, if you don’t like Linux, don’t use it, if you do like Windows, then for Christ’s sake use it and be happy with it.
Oh, and about the article. It surely is a very good guide for people who want to migrate to linux. Though not many seem to have noticed, this is exactly the purpose of this article and it does it well.
Dreamweaver is on it’s 7th full release and was released at the end of 1997.. I don’t know any Open source web editors that I can name that were out back then? (Besides the Netscape Editor which was not open sourced in Mozilla at that time.)
I liked the way the author wrote about the manufacturer’s fault to release drivers
Especially since the article is published on a hardware site.
…was installing Gentoo Linux. For the first time I had an OS that didn’t bork itself or become impossibly bloated and slow within 6 months.
Most importantly, ALL tools necessary to manage and fix the system come with the distribution. That has to be my pet peeve with Windows, if you want to fix a system problem or maintain a secure system, you HAVE TO BUY ADDITIONAL SOFTWARE. The same functionality that would cost hundreds if not thousands of dollars in 3rd party software under Windows is available on those Linux cd’s you burned for free or bought in the store for generally less than $90. I used to have hundreds of dollars of pirated software on my computer, with Linux I have equivalent or better functionality legally and free.
Great article for n00bs. Keep ’em coming.
Viruses???
Windows is the most used OS in the world. Of course it has many virus attacks. Watch and see if Linux becomes popular… watch how the virus attacks increase for that OS.
I have had Windows for years… and only can recall 2 instances with viruses, and that being years ago. If you know how to take care of your PC, then you should be fine. Otherwise, Linux is not much easier.
A comment to the first paragraph in the article..
If a user is stupid enough to infect his Windows box with a virus via some “SEE BRITNEY’S BREASTS” email he would be WAY too stupid to install and configure ANY Linux distro. IMHO.
Darius,
I wouldn’t argue with a professional web developer on which apps to use. The point of my rant was simply to answer some of the “why would I switch” questions. They asked, and I gave them answers. Doesn’t mean it’s right for everybody, but like I said, I do believe it’s the future. I did say OSS is rough around the edges…for now. That’s going to change. The more people that use it, the better it will get. And you just never know when something like DW might be ported to Linux.
Oh yes, Macromedia is already working to get the MX suite to work with Wine better and then if there is a market for MX on Linux they will port it to Linux native. (Which is a smart move cause it will not cost them a ton to get it to work in Linux)
I am the author of the article… It was meant to be a basic guide for the average joe.
No reasons were given for switching, because the article was not made to argue that point. The article was made for people who have ALREADY decided to switch.
[email protected]
BTW – I run Gentoo on my athlon 64, but I think it is unrealstic to expect the first-time switcher to install Gentoo or Debian.
Tyrone, I respect your opinion but hear what I have to say…
Yes Microsoft computers are attacked more often because they are a big target. But what does being a big target have to do with the ease of the attack. If they were a big hard target people would attack them less. I mean being a big target does not have anything to do with the fact that you can attack one windows machine and then use that one machine to attack 100’s more. With Millions of Linux machines on the internet running the backbone of the net (DNS, Webservers, Routers and Switches) Why do you not see Linux problems or for that matter Unix problems like Microsoft has?
Thats because the people that look after these machines know what they’re doing and ensure that the computer it is running on stays secure. In my experience Windows machines in similar environments are just as secure. I keep my Windows PC up to date and since Win2000 I have never had the problems the some people on here seem to be experiencing.
Your average home pc is administered by a user. Someone who cares more about getting things done than securing it against attack. Windows was never originally designed to be a highly secure system but rather easy to use and flexible. The fact that the huge majority of all computers use Windows is proof of its success.
Linux, from the beginning was designed to be secure. But that security has led to sacrifices in ease of use. Technology is progressing, and Windows is now out of the box more secure than ever, just like Linux is now friendlier than ever.
But hey, I’m sure most OSNews readers already know the above. My point is that when administered by those that have experience each operating system can do more or less anything the other can. And on the flip side, when administered by a non-technical person, both are either inflexible or open to attack.
I use debian on all my systems. I am a developer so I like figuring things out. I love Linux because I can fully customize every aspect of my environment. I am not limited and made to use one software application.
“Tell my brother it isn’t when XP crashes on him.
See above. I promise you that I could set it up for you and if you follow a few simple guidelines and assuming your hardware is good, it will not crash. ”
Never had much trouble with XP crashing on me, probably twice. However the applications often lock up, sometimes I think WinXP is doing this, sometimes I think it could be the app. Either way, it’s pretty annoying when my music stops playing because I started searching my hard drive (using Windows search and Windows Media Player), I have a 60GB DiamondMax 9, I have no problems with Linux 2.4.25 and the latest version of BMP while I run updatedb.
So WinXP may be stable, but the whole experience I have had has been glitchy. But wow, it’s sure easy to install.
Rebooting btw is annoying because it interrupts IRC and IM conversations.
Ethan, I respect your opinion but hear what I have to say…
In my first post I said: I work in the US government with people who have their PC’s on 24/7 (Because they need to be up to have patches pushed out at night.)These users have their 2000 or XP installs locked down to where they can’t install apps or anything. And then still you need domain based GPO’s to keep the machines tight from attack. Give someone admin privlages (Which you have to do for developers because you can’t like in Linux install a whole app in the users home directory so they need read and write to program files and then temp and then the registry etc, etc, etc.) And your whole security design is up for grabs. (What a mess!)
I am the only Linux user in a 5000 user Windows enviorment. I am also an MCSE on Windows 2000. I do this for a living. I am sorry to say but to get Windows as secure as Linux you lose much more ease of use. For instance.
If I put up a Linux machine and don’t use root for anything but the most serious tasks (And then only from the command line or something) I am already twice a secure as a Windows machine where the user is not admin but a regular user (Becasue you can still run Active X controls, you can still run VB Scripting and Macros etc as a regular user)meaning you can still be hit by the blaster worm (Unless you on top of your patches 24/7! Oh and if you just install patches in 2000 or Xp with out days of testing WOOOOOO! Trouble, Trouble.)
Also I would not say that “The fact that the huge majority of all computers use Windows is proof of its success.” I would say that only shows that they had a nice head start and good marketing. But look how fast Linux has jumped from being a hobby (Which Windows never was) to being the most talked about piece of computer software in computer history (And the proof of that is even Microsoft talks about Linux, is scared of Linux)
I mean everyone has their opinion of which is best. I wrote the security policy for Windows 2000 here in my building and I also wrote the security policy for Linux here in my building. (Which was easy, I just took the Unix security policy from 20 years ago and spent a few days tweaking it for Linux) So I know both OS’s well! And I feel much more comfortable. Yes when it comes to a direct attack I have a 50/50 chance just like a Windows user. But when it comes to worms or viruses a Windows user still has a 50/50 chance of getting one at any given time while my ratio using linux moves up to 75/25 (or 90/10 if I secure it right) When is the last time you heard of a LINUX Outbreak??? Never! How about a Unix outbreak? Bsd Outbreak? Never, never. But you hear about them in Windows weekly, sometimes everyday.
Oh an last but not least. Wait till Secure Enhanced Linux gets popular. (It will be rolled out in several Linux releases soon) Out the box your Linux machine will be twice as tight as it already is! Windows users will still be messing with Mcafee, Zone Alarm, Ad Aware and all that other crap you have to use just to keep your Windows machine running nice. (And remember Windows security is not backwards compatible. They will add new stuff to XP but nothing to 2000 so you are forced to move on if you want to be secure and don’t have XP)
“No reasons were given for switching, because the article was not made to argue that point. The article was made for people who have ALREADY decided to switch.”
Sorry if that was correct then why even say “Crashes, viruses and headaches. You have had it with Windows and you want to switch to Linux.” You are making statements against Microsoft whether you wish to admit to it or not. There simply was no reason to even say that. If it was a migration article then stick to it and let it speak for itself. Don’t bring politics into it. And don’t anyone start with I’m a MS zealot. I’m just sick and tired of the whole MS / Anti-MS fight. Its tired and played out.
Most modern operating systems, which include Linux, are composed of two parts: a small central piece called the “kernel” and a larger piece that has the applications and drivers.
I believe the Linux kernel contains the drivers. I am wrong?
You can Windows Secondary logon feature just like in Linux when you “SU” to root:-
http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/techinfo/planning/management/s…
This is a recommended practice by Microsoft to Net Admins, you might want to give it a look.
Also you say “I am the only Linux user in a 5000 user Windows enviorment. I am also an MCSE on Windows 2000.”
And you also say “I wrote the security policy for Windows 2000 here in my building and I also wrote the security policy for Linux here in my building.”
If you are the only Linux user, why do you need a written security policy?
I believe the Linux kernel contains the drivers. I am wrong?
Not necessarily, but keep in mind that not all drivers are kernel drivers. In the 2.4 kernel the ALSA drivers were seperate from the kernel, and some companies won’t publish details about their drivers because they are part of the performance gain (NVidia/ATI). They are kernel modules, but not part of the kernel.
The problem with using the Windows Secondary logon feature (And the reason we didn’t use it) is because you then have to give EVERY user 2 login accounts on their machine. (Not cool with 5000 users) Also it doesn’t work when a user needs to use someone elses machine. Unless you do it by making a bunch of user groups and trying to split up users and keep track of permissions that way. Ether way it’s a big mess. Might work in a small company but is totaly out of control in a big company. Let me give you an example.
Right now we have about 5000 users. Each user has an 8 character password that consists of at least 1 upper case character, 1 number and one punctuation mark of some sort. As you can imagine with 5000 users and the passwords changing every 30 days and plus we keep the last 10 passwords in memory, we get about 150 to 200 calls a week just to help people reset lost, forgotten or locked out passwords. Now, add in another account with the same password security for each user and you can see how crazy things will get.
Also then you would have to trust your 5000 users to follow the security policy because that same account with admin prvilages you give them and tell them to use as just the Run-As admin account will become the full time admin account when they are tired of putting it in everytime they need to install or run an application. LOL!
Oh and you asked why do we have a Linux security policy? Because under the Homeland Security act all US government agencies must have in place a security policy for every type of OS you bring up on any US government network.
Example: WASHINGTON – March 25, 2004
The U.S. Interior Department was back online Thursday after an appeals court said it could connect to the Internet while the court considers whether payments owed to American Indians are vulnerable to hackers.
Interior Department employees had been unable to use e-mail and most of its Web sites had been offline after a federal judge concluded on March 15 that the agency had not fixed security holes that threaten Indian trust-fund payments.
A U.S. appeals court in Washington said Wednesday the department could restore Internet operations until it heard the case. The court could hear the case as early as next week.
So we have to show the Dept of Homeland Security that we have a security plan in place. Also I am sorry that I was not clear on what I meant in the first place. I meant to say I was the only “Desktop” Linux user. We do have webservers and DNS servers on Linux. Plus our mail gateways are on Linux (But we use Exchange on the back end)
My favorite reason for running Linux: feedback
Mac OSX error: “There was an error joining the network: MySchoolWireless” What am I supposed to do with that?
Windows error “Cannot delete whateverfile: it is being used by another person or program. Close any programs that might be using the file and try again.” Well, at least this error gives me something to work with. Ctrl-Alt-Del and end processes till it works.
Linux error: “Unable to mount root device /dev/ram3” Alright, it’s bad ram. Not even the hardware test CD that came with the computer could tell me that, but Linux did.
Oh yeah, and I’ve had about enough of people bashing the article. I found it quite informative. Even after a year of dual booting, I still learned stuff. Admittedly, I hadn’t really looked for something like this, but I was quite excited to find a utility to move all of my Outlook stuff to Evolution.
“Windows is the most used OS in the world. Of course it has many virus attacks.
Utter hogwash. Will you people ever get this straight? This is like saying Apache is the most used web server in the world, so of course it will have more attacks. But popularity in usage has nothing to do with bottom line security built into the app or the OS. Please stop confusing the two issues, as few of us here will fall for it.
“Watch and see if Linux becomes popular… watch how the virus attacks increase for that OS.”
I would argue that virus attacks for Linux WILL NOT have the same effects as the thousands of virus attacks have had on Microsoft products. Let’s see how that would work. Some script kiddie, or most likely true cracker, writes an email virus for say, Evolution. But guess what, I use kmail, my friend uses mutt, & his friend uses pine. So exactly how far do you think this virus will reach? Think about it.
Secondly, I have yet to see a Linux virus that can write to the root file system. Admin privileges are not so easily hijacked on *nix systems as with Microsoft products. As in the case with Apache, cited above, Linux popularity in usage WILL NOT change the baseline security built into the system, unless some distro decides to let all users run with admin privileges. In that case, I would simply find another distro.
Thirdly, it is now possible to compile *nix apps with buffer overflow protection, in addition to having things such as hardened kernel sources & SELinux available. (Yes I know SELinux doesn’t yet work with X). Such features will make certain types of exploits more difficult to execute. I don’t doubt that such features will also be incorporated into future distros, hopefully in such a way as to be completely transparent to the user. I am anxiously awaiting the first distro that incorporates these types of features as a selling point, while further securing the base system.
Finally, GNU software is the perfect example of evolution in action, far more so than proprietary offerings. One only has to compare the speed of patch releases between the two camps to see the obvious differences. I would argue that as Linux matures and market share increases, exlpoits will DECREASE, due to developer pride, rather than having to answer to shareholders.
Have tried a bunch distros from RH 7.2 on up…for the users that are relative nubee’s, Xandros 2.0 will probably be the easiest/most compatible option to get you up and running fast. I’ve pluged every USB device (printer, scanner, UPS, Sony DSC camera, multiple flash drives) I have and Xandros recognized and worked with every one. It’s not perfect (what OS is???), but Xandros will probably work for most relatively new hardware (past 3-4 years). Xandros Network works well and updates apps like Open Office and Mozilla and all the other in between. Not immediately, but within a month the “Xandrosized” version will come out and bring you up to the latest patches/release.
re: Drivers?
By X (IP: —.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net) – Posted on 2004-03-29 23:04:51
I believe the Linux kernel contains the drivers. I am wrong?
Yeah your right linux kernel is monolithic, i saw a lot more probs than this in the article, but cant be bothered to nitpick.
as to the rest of the comments:
by Darius:
what else do you have? For example, if you say free alternatives are better than proprietary ones, then show me what free alternatives you have that are better than, say Dreamweaver, and explain specifically why the free alternative(s) is better .. what specifically can it do that Dreamweaver can’t? See what I mean?
Lets go through the list,
http://linuxshop.ru/linuxbegin/win-lin-soft-en/table.shtml
first off theres k3b, imho better than nero, cdripping/burning dvd ripping / encoding and burning vcd etc burning. Started years after nero already passes nero in functionality.
konqueror / firefox imho are both better than ie.
kwrite/kate probably the best gui text editors ive used. Nothing beats emacs for code formatting (tab indentation formatting etc)
and vi for general editing.
evolution/kontact imho are better than outlook do everything home user needs and more knotes is proper cool.
kmail imho whips outlook express.
Mldonkey supports nearly every p2p network in the 1 app, looking to be an awesome p2p app.
lets face it only thing holding linux back is sound editing apps such as reason. How many normal day to day users use it ? how many are in the audio industry?
name a windows equivalent as good as ipchains/iptables. using firestarter as a frontend.
if your a professional web developer would you be using dreamweaver or a text editor ?
im sorry use dreamweaver to edit dynamic sites and it borks it, dont get me wrong i used to like dreamweaver and its what i used to learn html development but give me kedit , quanta etc.. they whoop dreamweaver they aint wysiwyg but what professional web developer relies on a wysiwyg editor. Only people that have no clue use wysiwygs.
Next thing its amazing the amount of windows users jump in and say oh no this is all bullshit.
Right now, im running a debian server to give the whole house adsl access, which also provides the firewall, and it also run the house dns and web server. (dual 350, with 512 ram and it runs like a champ)
i now have to get everyones email running through the server so they dont get an email virus infection again.
Explain to my sister how good windows xp is, running nav 2002 pro, fully updatted she manages to get viruses. Which i then have to install avp to get around it. She installs a couple of progs, i run adaware to find 822 cases of spyware, how nice. Shes a medical student, she doesnt care how it works, just that it works, stability issues, im sorry dont feed me crap, ive used MS products since dos.
Windows xp is still plagued with probs the only good thing they released was dos, that imho was stable. To name a few it slows to a crawl, (my sister runs office xp with endnote, and it does just that). Guess what im going to do, im gonna wait for her work to be done, it needs a format cos its just borked, after its done bye bye windows, hello linux. My dad, with norton updated to latest definitions gets an email from one of his friends which just happens to be netsky.d, thinking the attachment is important clicks it, realises oh shit somethings wrong here why is it trying to mass mail everyone on my system, pulls out the network wire, calls me in and says wtf is going on. Luckily about 2 weeks earlier my cousin had the exact same problem, i ended up having to go there and clean up his system. so i grab the tools from symantec and waste half an hour of my life cleaning up his system.
the amount of reinstalls i have had to do to friends computers due to viruses is unreal. run windows xp for 6 months and install stuff on it and uninstall and it gets retarded thanks to the concept of the registry. Sorry a problem that has plagued windows since windows 95. The registry is crap.
Go and explain to my university technicians how rebooting is not a problem, how windows update is so good. (By the way the university already heavily using sun’s and is now migrating windows labs to linux, they are tired of all of the windows related probs).
Windows users are so conditioned into believing that the problems are to be expected, oh reboots are fine, upgrade and reboot, like its the way things should be, no sorry thats dll-hell.
its a problem when you have to rely on other hardware to secure your home computer.
Maybe you can live with the problems,
you know how many times in the past 4 years i have reinstalled debian on my desktop ? once, i wanted to switch down to stable i didnt know i didnt need to reinstall, there are other ways of doing it, but i did it anyway, then i changed it back up to unstable. If it dont break why would i need the hassle of fixing it ?, why would i need to run a reg cleaner why would i need a virus scanner why would i need all these excessive shits just to get my work done ? to protect me from an operating system that is just flawed. So bite on that.
Linux just works, windows you have to install a shite loads of software just so it doesnt get infected. Windows is like a hooker that likes to go down a lot, all it ends up with is infections.
I have in this time completely borked lilo, screwed the kernel you name it, none of it has needed the reinstall. Windows users are so conditioned into believing reinstalling is the solution to all problems.
Its not, reinstall should be a last resort, a reboot should be a last resort.
I shouldnt need to reboot just because i have installed a new piece of software i should not need to run as adminstrator.
Personally, i thought the article didnt start off well, there was no need for that, i would have started off with,
so you want to make a switch to linux ? heres our howto.
If anything it would scare off a lot of inexperienced home users.
Can you comment on the freaking article not into another linux bashing spree,
“i say it is not ready therefore it is not ready”
Bollocks, just because you say so doesnt make it so.
why would i need to switch ? no ones forcing you to switch this article does not say, “switch otherwise we at tomshardware, will curse you and your computer for eternity”, it just provides a comprehensive guide for users getting ready to migrate, but then you get windows users jumping in and coming up with nonsical rubbish from a 2 line introduction at the top of the article.
If you dont like linux, so be it no one forces you to use it, you dont like it well dont use it. If you are getting ready to migrate then this guide provides a primer for you.
For most m$ zealots its not a virii, stability issues etc are not for you but for the majority of people we don’t have the reasourses or the l33t knowledge to keep M$ running.
Keep thinking to yourselves that the world is flat but the rest of us know the damage caused by M$ and this artical helps them! Its time for the m$ zeaolots to move aside and admit that their belovid OS has more holes than a rusted bucket!
Viruses???
Windows is the most used OS in the world. Of course it has many virus attacks. Watch and see if Linux becomes popular… watch how the virus attacks increase for that OS.
I have had Windows for years… and only can recall 2 instances with viruses, and that being years ago. If you know how to take care of your PC, then you should be fine. Otherwise, Linux is not much easier.
Thats such bull!!! Apache is the most used software on the net and gee no worms on that!!!!
and oh if xp crahes your using cheep hard ware and any OS will crash!!! Man such dreams!! Maby its because Linux can handle ANY hardware better and not rely on buggy drivers in the first place!
Sorry if that was correct then why even say “Crashes, viruses and headaches. You have had it with Windows and you want to switch to Linux.” You are making statements against Microsoft whether you wish to admit to it or not. There simply was no reason to even say that. If it was a migration article then stick to it and let it speak for itself. Don’t bring politics into it. And don’t anyone start with I’m a MS zealot. I’m just sick and tired of the whole MS / Anti-MS fight. Its tired and played out.
There was no ‘politics’ in that statment what you are sick of is that most people arn’t as stupid as you and follow the flock like a fluffy whit sheep. Just because you may believe that M$ perfect doesn’t mean it is. Infact the majority see it otherwize. Billions with mydoom.B
I’m going to take a cue from the Linux zealots and say that the people who have the sorts of problems you do (or your sister, or whoever) are just too stupid to use a computer.
It’s getting late, so I don’t have time to respond to the rest of your drivel, sorry.
The phrase ‘Linux just works’ ought to be illegal to say out loud.
“the people who have the sorts of problems you do (or your sister, or whoever) are just too stupid to use a computer. ”
yeah their too stupid to use a computer or windows is just shit..
I’d go with windows is just shit. They shouldnt have to run virus checkers, have to run defrag, have to run a reg cleaner, have to run adaware progs. have to reboot the computer everytime something new is installed. Have to reinstall the operating system everytime the registry screws up. Just so that their computer works.
and again i say Linux just works.
my drivel ? sorry ?
The article had 2 lines, where it explained the reasons behind why the author would think people would want to switch from linux, then actually went on to explain how to get all your files backed up ready for migration.
How many windows users got up in complete arms about 2 lines?
well its now resulted in 59 comments of which 90 odd percent have no relevance at all to the article but are just pure windows trolls spreading fud, followed by linux user rebuttals.
Then we get called zealots. Yeah right.
LINUX JUST WORKS. you may not like it but its the truth, no matter how much money you splash at your problems.
as is said, microsoft is not the answer its the question and the answer is no !
They shouldnt have to run virus checkers, have to run defrag, have to run a reg cleaner, have to run adaware progs. have to reboot the computer everytime something new is installed. Have to reinstall the operating system everytime the registry screws up. Just so that their computer works.
*looking around* Where do they come up with this shit? Must be the air down there.
As I have said in my last posts I work for the US government and I do have one last comment on MS security. (Or lack there of) We have 5000+ users here and only 5 use XP. Because of security issues we went last year from Windows 95/98 to 2000 instead of XP. We have 2 Microsoft consultants and they pushed going with 2000 over XP because of security issues (And they work for MS) Now what is wrong with this picture?
We have more Linux machines on the network then XP and 2003 machines. Strange.
Oh and here is a funny fact. There has been Virus scan software since DOS 2 came out.. Which means that MS has had problems with viruses and worms back when the MAC was king. Kind of takes the steam out of the point that Microsoft has virus problems because they have a large user base. All the large user base does is make the problem look bigger. Doesn’t have anything to do with the ease of attack that Windows provides..
“They shouldnt have to run virus checkers, have to run defrag, have to run a reg cleaner, have to run adaware progs. have to reboot the computer everytime something new is installed. Have to reinstall the operating system everytime the registry screws up. Just so that their computer works.”
(You do have to do all these things. Or pray. One or the other. LOL!)
Yes with some versions of Linux you have to do some work to get it up and running the way you want it etc. But once it’s up you can’t kill it. I never reboot my linux machine unless I do a kernel update. I never worry about the lastest virus alert. I never get spyware on my PC. Phantom popups from Ad Ware. Applications that work one day and for no good reason stop working the next and even if you uninstall and reinstall them they still never work right cause you can’t find that hidden reg entry that you need to delete. I never come to work and find my PC all slow or locked up from the patch updates that ran the night before.
Yes Windows is more polished but it’s only a matter of time before Linux distros like Xandros, Lindows, Mandrake, Lycoris etc get more polished. Then the only difference will be apps. The more apps on Linux, the less need for Windows. I am using Xandros 2 business edition for work and on my laptop and don’t see any good reason for using Windows. I use crossover office and with that I use Dreamweaver, and Office XP. I use Firefox for my browser aand Thunderbird for my mail client.
Could someone give me a good reason that I would need the headache of using Windows?
“They shouldnt have to run virus checkers, have to run defrag, have to run a reg cleaner, have to run adaware progs. have to reboot the computer everytime something new is installed. Have to reinstall the operating system everytime the registry screws up. Just so that their computer works.”
(You do have to do all these things. Or pray. One or the other. LOL!)
Truth is, you don’t really *need* any of those things, cept maybe the defragger. I currently do not have a reg clean program installed. I’ve got two adware progs, but they never find anything. Rarely do I have to reboot when installing anything. I don’t recall ever having a corrupted registry either. So, maybe I’m just lucky, or else I know what I’m doing?
Yes with some versions of Linux you have to do some work to get it up and running the way you want it etc.
Hehe, some. LOL
Could someone give me a good reason that I would need the headache of using Windows?
If you have to ask this question, probably nothing. But, take this senario: You get a new job in which you have the opprotunity to work from home, but the custom software your employer uses only runs in Windows, or at the very least requires Internet Explorer (which is the case for me.) Now, assuming you couldn’t get it to work in Wine, then what do you do? Do you install Windows on a seperate partition, use VMWare, or simply don’t bother working from home? What if your job provided you a laptop, and said working with Windows was a *requirement* ?? Would you look for another job … in this economy??
“If you have to ask this question, probably nothing. But, take this senario: You get a new job in which you have the opprotunity to work from home, but the custom software your employer uses only runs in Windows, or at the very least requires Internet Explorer (which is the case for me.) Now, assuming you couldn’t get it to work in Wine, then what do you do? Do you install Windows on a seperate partition, use VMWare, or simply don’t bother working from home? What if your job provided you a laptop, and said working with Windows was a *requirement* ?? Would you look for another job … in this economy??”
Well that could be the case. But being that IE 6 runs fine under crossover office on Linux IE is not a problem. As far as custom apps what we do here is if the app runs on 95/98/ME then we just run Win4Lin. (Which allows you to run a full version of 95/98/ME as an application in Linux.Win4lin is much lower in cost then VMware and a demo comes with Xandros) If it’s an NT/2000/XP app that can’t run under 95/98 then we use Citrix to connect to a machine running the app.
And I do have a windows laptop for work. I use it for work and that is all. And that is to make money. But that is it. No other reason to use it. At home and on my office desktop I don’t use Windows. 🙂
But it’s funny you mention “So, maybe I’m just lucky, or else I know what I’m doing?” Which means if you don’t know what you are doing then you could or will have problems. Yet I gave my Roommate, Girlfriend, Mother and Brother low cost machines with Lindows installed and not one has called me with a problem yet. No “It’s running slower then when you first gave it to me” Or “My friend told me I need to update this patch from MS or I would get a virus. I did and now my PC is dead” Or “My windows XP keeps rebooting like they say that blastewr worm makes it do when you get it” (Which is why I put all those people I named on Lindows because my mothers PC crashed after getting the blaster worm.)
And last but not least you say “Yes with some versions of Linux you have to do some work to get it up and running the way you want it etc.
Hehe, some. LOL”
But the versions I would give to a novice are easy to install like Mandrake, Lindows and Xandros. The Xandros install is just like XP (But much faster) Oh and no stupid license keys that will kill your machine if you change too much hardware or move your hard drive to a new machine. LOL! (Ridicules!)
Anyway how many novice users install an OS anyway. Most just buy it preloaded which throws the hard to install debate right out the windows (Oops. I mean Window) If you get a machine preinstalled, and like Xandros with a set of good opensource apps (Or low cost apps) Like Star Office, Gimp, Gaim, Firefox, Thunderbird etc. You wind up with a safer less headache filled experience. (Lower in cost also)
But the versions I would give to a novice are easy to install like Mandrake, Lindows and Xandros. The Xandros install is just like XP (But much faster)
Out of the three distros you mentioned, I have the most experience with Xandros. So, let me ask you … using Xandros, how do you install an app not listed on Xandros Networks? Also, how do you change the fonts on non-KDE apps? Do those things ‘just work’ as well?
Oh and no stupid license keys that will kill your machine if you change too much hardware or move your hard drive to a new machine. LOL! (Ridicules!)
Alright, now you’re trolling. In order for anything like this to happen, you’d have to swap out like 6 pieces of hardware at once. In other words, you’d basically have to change computers.
Anyway how many novice users install an OS anyway. Most just buy it preloaded which throws the hard to install debate right out the windows (Oops. I mean Window)
Never once have you heard me say that Linux was hard to install. Getting all of your ‘non-generic’ hardware up and running (including, but not limited to scanners, PDAs, mp3 players, video capture cards, calculators, etc) is a different story.
If you get a machine preinstalled, and like Xandros with a set of good opensource apps (Or low cost apps) Like Star Office, Gimp, Gaim, Firefox, Thunderbird etc. You wind up with a safer less headache filled experience. (Lower in cost also)
Less headache filled, yes … until you need to install a new piece of hardware (ok, maybe USB keychains wouldn’t be a problem, but still …) or an app not in their ‘official’ repositories. In other words, these kind of ‘easy-as-pie’ distros are great, as long as you keep them in the ‘sandbox’ they were designed to run in. Or, if you don’thappen to run into something you really need that requires Windows to run. In the case of Xandros, I know from experience that Crossover doesn’t do so well with apps it wasn’t designed to run. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it does mean your options are limited.
I hate to say it, but it’s true… A lot of Windows instability issues – if not all – are related to hardware instability. I know this to my cost – since after 2 years and buying mutiple Via based motherboards I had concluded that Windows was a pile of garbage. Then I bought a Nforce 2 motherboard and I learned the true meaning of what it was like to own a stable Windows platform. While I still don’t like Bill Gates and wish there was a viable alternative to Windows on the PC, I’m not sure if Linux is it. Linux looks set to remain case sensitive and will never quite have the double click and install functionality of Windows. (I know there are some developers making package managers like this, but they are dependent on network connections and work the same way as apt, portage, synaptic and other package managers in the way they deal with dependency solving. That is double click on a desktop executable and it installs the app and downloads and installs all the dependencies too. But I have seen apt, portage and just about every other linux package manager break at one point or another – so I can’t see how this would be any different). From the ground up, Linux just wasn’t built with the average Joe in mind – nor is it being developed that way now. There are too many elitists in Linux who want to keep things just the way they are. They like their supposedly (though only in their eyes) l33t status and are in no hurry to change it. It’s sad, but there you are. It would be nice if some of them took their heads out their asses and get over their egos, but I guess it’s just human nature not to.
That’s just the way things are I suppose.
GJ
Out of the three distros you mentioned, I have the most experience with Xandros. So, let me ask you … using Xandros, how do you install an app not listed on Xandros Networks? Also, how do you change the fonts on non-KDE apps? Do those things ‘just work’ as well?
How you install an app that is not in the Xandros network is to go to any website that has what you are looking for (Like I installed the Linux version of Yahoo Messenger this morning) Download the deb package, double click it, put in the root password (If you use the Xandros network tool to do the install) and that is that.And none of the people I have given Lindows or Xandros to have ever come to me and asked me why the fonts look different in one problem then the other. (Talk about Trolling LOL!)
“Alright, now you’re trolling. In order for anything like this to happen, you’d have to swap out like 6 pieces of hardware at once. In other words, you’d basically have to change computers.” Didn’t I say if you move the hard drive to another computer. Also I still don’t like the fact that I have to register with MS and then can not install my paid for copy of XP on another PC in my own house (Unless I break the ELUA) “Installation and Use. Except as otherwise expressly provided in this EULA, you may install, use, access, display and run only one (1) copy of the SOFTWARE on
the COMPUTER. The SOFTWARE may not be used by more than one (1) processor at any one time on the COMPUTER”
“Less headache filled, yes … until you need to install a new piece of hardware (ok, maybe USB keychains wouldn’t be a problem, but still …) or an app not in their ‘official’ repositories. In other words, these kind of ‘easy-as-pie’ distros are great, as long as you keep them in the ‘sandbox’ they were designed to run in. Or, if you don’thappen to run into something you really need that requires Windows to run. In the case of Xandros, I know from experience that Crossover doesn’t do so well with apps it wasn’t designed to run. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it does mean your options are limited.”
? Hardware like what? I mean I don’t have any problems. Just installed a new scanner and CD burner into my Xandros machine and a CD burner into my brothers Lindows PC yesterday! Plus what you are making sound like a problem is really not a problem.
See what I am talking about with Windows are problems. With Linux what you are calling a problem is only a problem due to lack of age and maturity. While the virus problems, bad design problems they can’t go back and fix etc come from bad design in the first place and greed in the second! I mean when there are still viruses and worms coming out that can cause problems on EVERY single version of Windows that has come out in the last 10 years there is a serious problem!
No OS is perfect but Linux in the future will continue to give a better user experience and because of the original thought that went into the design the same problems that have been in MS OS’s since DOS will not show up in Linux. Just like they have not shown up in UNIX or BSD versions of UNIX.
darius wrote:
*looking around* Where do they come up with this shit? Must be the air down there.
Yeah it must be the air, or its the truth. Admit defeat honourably.
But, take this senario: You get a new job in which you have the opprotunity to work from home, but the custom software your employer uses only runs in Windows, or at the very least requires Internet Explorer (which is the case for me.) Now, assuming you couldn’t get it to work in Wine, then what do you do? Do you install Windows on a seperate partition, use VMWare, or simply don’t bother working from home? What if your job provided you a laptop, and said working with Windows was a *requirement* ?? Would you look for another job … in this economy??
always bullshit scenarios, which have no relevance to the question at hand.. You were just a minute ago trying to prove windows doesnt suck, i proved you wrong then you come up with a scenario.
Requires IE guess what IE works in linux using crossover office. If its a piece of software that doesnt require direct x, then vmware, will make it just work.. Infact many times has vmware run apps at or close to native speeds on my linux box. Why should I dual boot to/from windows, when i have a problem with windows ?. Screw it, rarely do you come across a situation where IE must be used so i take that as bull. Only time IE must be used is certain bank sites, i use barclays which works with firefox fine so im cool.
If they provide the laptop with windows pre installed fine id use it. But would i install windows on my desktop out of my own free will ?. Not bloody likely. Stop with the crappy scenarios, that are just bullshit. They have nothing to do with the article. and you just dont get it.. Instead you waste time.
So, let me ask you … using Xandros, how do you install an app not listed on Xandros Networks? Also, how do you change the fonts on non-KDE apps? Do those things ‘just work’ as well?
Well let me ask you, WHY would you need to ?
Why would home users need to install apps not on the xandros network ? what specifically would a home user need thats not on the network ?
why would you need to change the fonts for non-kde apps ? if the app allows easy font changing it will do it from the preferences.
if its a properietry app, such as vmware, opera etc etc. it will mean it wont be reliant on any of the gpl libraries therefore will work perfectly with just a couple of clicks.
These are just lame, find something better to do than trolling.
You miss the whole point its not about open sourced vs closed source. Its about the platform, and windows sucks as a platform, I dont give a rats ass if the app i have to use is closed or open to get the work done, what i care about is being locked into a crappy os, that is shit, and im not the only one with that mentality that runs linux.
If you think were blinded by linux, no were not when im sitting down with mates discussing linux problems, we go through enogh problems we have encountered and solutions to them, rarely if ever do we have problems that require a reinstall, certain server side stuff maybe with configuration, or new tech we werent aware of. We ssh into each others boxes / configure stuff. Its all good. Can you do that on windows ? i can ssh into my mates box install the nvidia drivers, without him having to do anything. I can ssh in restart a certain thing if they dont have net access, can you do that ? you see if for example my cousin had linux installed and he borks it. All i would need to do is ssh in and sort out the problem, screw rdesktop and shite. 5 minutes done. Here you go cus. Or my uncle that lives in northern Ireland instead of him sending down his drive because its fucked again, or having to take it to shop to repair i could just ssh in and fix the problem. Do you get the bigger picture or is your brain still stuck on this propertiery vs open source shite ?
Understand the whole picture not just your own small take on it.
by Anonymous:
I hate to say it, but it’s true… A lot of Windows instability issues – if not all – are related to hardware instability. I know this to my cost – since after 2 years and buying mutiple Via based motherboards I had concluded that Windows was a pile of garbage. Then I bought a Nforce 2 motherboard and I learned the true meaning of what it was like to own a stable Windows platform.
Man, imho VIA own. Maybe its just me but the nforce2 chipset caused me so much grief with both windows and linux, im never gonna buy an nforce based chipset again.
on windows, its just caused me pain, took me over 3 days to get windows xp installed on a comp i built for a mate (using abit nf7-s. xp 2800+ about a yr ago). It works now, but i wanted to the mobo and shove it up abit’s ceo’s ass. And i wanted to take the windows xp box and shove it up bill gates ass.
It would blue screen like feck, after installing the latest nvidia drivers then the service pack, but i had to install the service pack to get the drive to be recognised as greater than 134 gig. So yes windows installs perfectly, bollocks. Surprisingly the redhat 8 / 9 ? i tried worked flawlessly in picking up all components and setting the drive to correct size, picking up the sata. Shocking but true, i guess thats the advantage of release fast release quickly.
However thats not to say the nforce boards didnt have probs with linux, about 6 months after i built the comp for the guy i went out and bought the exact same board
(i nearly always buy abit boards they generally own)
and was introduced to a world of pain, Nvidia wouldnt open up the spec to the mobo, so you had to use their closed source drivers, which like in windows, caused pain in linux. I had pain for a few weeks, of it just freezing and other random shit. Only to find out the bios has screwed acpi calls, after updating the bios and disabling the acpi disconnect function it all worked perfectly again. The other solution was to patch the kernel, which i did aswell just for the fun of it.
And the onboard soundcard sucks ass.. (no hardware mixing) so im gonna have to buy an sb audigy/live soon.
In general i believe that hardware manufacturers should open the spec of the hardware, or release good closed source drivers, dont release good hardware and half arsed drivers. if you cant be arsed with good driver creation provide a full spec of the hardware so good drivers can be written.
By Tyrone Miles:
No OS is perfect but Linux in the future will continue to give a better user experience and because of the original thought that went into the design the same problems that have been in MS OS’s since DOS will not show up in Linux. Just like they have not shown up in UNIX or BSD versions of UNIX.
Exactly, i couldnt agree with you more