Apple hopes to woo stranded Windows NT 4.0 migrators with a migration tool it’s building into the Tiger Server, due out in the first half of 2005.
Apple Makes a Play for Windows NT Orphans
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Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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Isn’t it too late?
it might be, but there still is alot of NT4’s out there.
Nope, lots of companies still run on NT4 – it’s reasonably reliable and they see no need to upgrade.
Finally our place is getting round to it – but there’s no pressing need other than the fact that we’re replacing ageing hardware so now’s as good a time as any.
Apple already has excellent support for Java and if they can make Mono work really well, they can go a long way toward bridging the compatability between Windows PCs and Macs. They’d also get ASP.NET support for free, which would make another case for their servers.
Apple already has excellent support for Java and if they can make Mono work really well, they can go a long way toward bridging the compatability between Windows PCs and Macs. They’d also get ASP.NET support for free, which would make another case for their servers.
Apparently, what Apple has failed to realize is that the vast majority of businesses that are still using NT are cheapos. These cheapo companies are still using P2’s and P3’s and probably won’t spend more than a 1000$ per desktop computer(including the monitor and software) if at all to replace them. Last I check Apple’s asking prices are way above that. They are more likely to go for a Linux distro than go to Apple. There also more likely just move on to Win2K.
With the massive NT exodus going to occur next year; It’s going to be Red Hat’s and Novell’s market to lose if they don’t execute their business plans correctly. Of the Linux distros, those two are in the best position to capitalize.
TRUE :
“With the massive NT exodus going to occur next year; It’s going to be Red Hat’s and Novell’s market to lose if they don’t execute their business plans correctly. Of the Linux distros, those two are in the best position to capitalize”
They don’t plan to replace desktops, but servers, where Apple is very competitive.
I wonder about the cost issue. Last time I checked, you could get a G5 server with license for unlimited users for about the same price as Red Hat enterprise.
http://www.redhat.com/apps/commerce/rhel/as/
I’m not sure what the user restrictions are on the Red Hat software, but they have software priced up to $18,000.
Seems crazy to ask so much for software which could be downloaded and installed for free.
http://www.nwfusion.com/news/2003/1110redhatusers.html?fsrc=netflas…
At least in the case of Apple, there is the real cost of the hardware to account for.
Apple needs some certified technicians. That is THE real thing that Apple should focus on. Great tools, but you need TRAINED technicians. Old school Apple people are clueless about OS X. No offense, it is just a different animal than Share IP bolt on for Mac Classic.
Apple does have a certification program for OSX.
http://training.apple.com/certification/
https://plone.fnal.gov/Plone/Scientific%20Linux
http://www-oss.fnal.gov/projects/fermilinux/sl/
it is not that these companys are cheapos, why fix what is not broken???
could be they are not satisfied with MS’s newer product…
it dpends on what you are talking about – if its desktops then apple’s may come out slightly higher (<200) but if it is servers then apple’s servers have been shown to be on par or even cheaper than almost every major vendor out there, yes, i said every – dell, sun, ibm, etc.
also on the software side apple offers unlimited licences for 999USD plus Xcode (no need for VSTUDIO “000”s of dollars). all OSS apps that matter are easier to setup on the mac – LAMP/P, JBoss, etc.
In related news IBM confirms Apple’s dominance in the eServer wars leading IBM to consider the real value in their continued presence in the server business.
Why buy expensive Apple when you can get the power of UNIX with FreeBSD or Linux with Debian or RedHat or if the company admins want to be as close to Apple as possible than choose GNU/Darwin OS.
If the company is on a budget, that is the best approach I would take, go for cheap but reliable. I find Apple hardware too expensive to even be considered an option.
because Apple hardware is cheaper than a lot of solutions from the other players.
What’s the point?
Admittedly I work on data processing systems rather than more fancy stuff, but I’ve never had an application that failed to migrate from NT to XP simply by copying the file!
Pretty soon Apple is going to release a giant iPod server. Picture a shiny white and aluminum iPod obelisk about two feet wide and five feet high.
Inside the new “iPod Enterprise Server” will be hundreds of tiny 1.8″ drives all being handled by Apple’s advanced iPodOS.
The server will be super simple to administer — just four buttons and a big wheel and a giant LCD panel. Beyond being really simple, it will come with Enterprise iTunes so that all the workers in your enterprise can tune into a carefully chosen selection of tunes with driving beats to get them to work harder and longer.
With the new iPod Enterprise Server, Apple is going after all the companies still running NT4 or any other OS that needs an eye candy upgrade.
iPod Enterprise Server — when your enterprise is in the doldrums and you need some style and some groovin tunes!
Of the top 100 Supercomputers in the World, how many of them are running windows verses Macintosh? OS X is running much of the same software as Linux, but with a GUI that is easier to use then NT. OS X, Netware, and linux are viable options, for those that don’t want a virus infected server and downtime.
what do supercomputers have to do with running a business?
btw va techs super computer is non existant
http://www.top500.org/list/2004/06/
it is not on the list, they had to take the marketing show off the air.
“linux can have the el cheapo web server market that makes no money.”
Like Google. How about Yahoo, are they running windows. How about the firewall Microsoft servers are sitting behind.
Apple does need system admins though.
It seems some people don’t understand that MacOS X Server is UNIX or UNIX like. Whatever it is. You don’t need Mac OS X trained admins to run OS X. Anybody who is trained in UNIX or Linux should be able to run a MacOS X Server easily. It should really be a lot better for them with all the GUI tools. I’m use to Linux and MacOS X so I don’t think it would be to hard for me to jump right in if I ever got the chance to use it. As for the hardware and licenses when you compare Apple to other vendors they are really cheaper then anything else out there. People seem to think that since the desktops have a high price that the servers must to. Unless companies are buying desktop PC’s and then installing a server OS on those machines then I think Apple is very favorable in price. The only thing holding them back are the decision makers who are usually afraid of anything new so they tend to stay with what know which is Windows.
Yahoo have been ***the*** big FreeBSD supporters ever since. This is true for development as well as deployment. No Windows there, I wonder where you got that from. Type “yahoo freebsd development” into Google and see for yourself.
Apple is a hardware company. I don’t want Dell’s hardware tax.
Some of you people are ridiculous. I sure hope that a big ego isn’t a part of the Mac package. =p I think Mac’s are great and everything but DAMN.
Some of the PC users here are ridiculous too.. calling a person derogatory names when you don’t really know them? *shakes head* with things like this it’s no wonder vs wars that erupt whenever a topic comes up like this will never end.
Who cares about market share? Apple sells about 3 million Macs per year, and sales have been growing on a yearly basis. If PC industry growth outpaces Apple’s growth, so what?
Anyway, if following the crowd and using the same worm and virus-infested Windows platform on an el-cheapo Dell like the majority use makes you feel special, by all means give yourself a pat on the back. I for one have used Windows for long enough (8 years), losing more than enough time and data to worms, crashes, and spyware. My first Mac arrives next week; several friends who also switched (and have had no problems since) convinced me.
PS I can’t believe that article actually quotes “analyst” Laura Didio. Could there be a more clueless person to comment? She’s the one who kept saying SCO had a strong case, falling for all Darl’s nonsense.
windows XP is ok (though most users of it are infected with the latest virus)
OS X is ok.
the VA Tech Computer was being upgraded and did not make the list because it could not be measured, NOT because it fell that many places.
which “mac” posts in this particular forum have been “egotistical” do you mean…
MIKE: Apple already has excellent support for Java and if they can make Mono work really well, they can go a long way toward bridging the compatability between Windows PCs and Macs. They’d also get ASP.NET…
OR…
MANIK: They don’t plan to replace desktops, but servers, where Apple is very competitive.
OR…
KEITH: I wonder about the cost issue. Last time I checked, you could get a G5 server with license for unlimited users for about the same price as Red Hat enterprise.
OR…
DAN: Apple needs some certified technicians. That is THE real thing that Apple should focus on. Great tools, but you need TRAINED technicians. Old school Apple people are clueless about OS X. No offense, it is just a different animal than Share IP bolt on for Mac Classic.
RENALDO?: Apple does have a certification program for OSX.
DEBMAN?: because Apple hardware is cheaper than a lot of solutions from the other players.
Its unfortunate when you have to do what I have just done. Forums are supposed to be places of discussion but people off-handedly throw out statements like tetsu’s knowing that people are not really going to go back and try and respond to one of the so-called “inflammatory” or “egotistical” posts – rather they are just going to pick it up from there and start something that was previously non-existant.
Before tetsu’s post anonymous (IP: —.chvlva.adelphia.net)had been the only one that had shown complete ignorance and/or lack of knowledge. This guy is obviously a flame coz if he/she was truly interested in facts they would have asked a question or better yet – go to the apple website. All the info. about their server products is out in the open for all to see.
Then go to DELL/SUN/IBM/etc., and make a comparison. If you find that this is too tedious then guess what, you were not really after the info. then were you? You could also pass by places like PC World where they HAVE reviewd Apple’s server products and found them to be either on equal footing or superior.
And to BrazenRegent, even though your post had not reached the inflammatory level due to the fact that it did try to frame an argument (but made the mistake??? of assuming desktops vs. servers – win2k would have been more understandable to assume as desktop) your titling the post “You gotta love the hype” did not really covey what you were talking about in your post AND was an invitation to troll.
While somewhere in the abstract world of associations one can show some relationship between “hype” and the article, that’s not the point. The point is if you are posting to a forum in the spirit if debate, discussion and information sharing you could have easily better titled that post. The fact that the “bad” title is natured in an pro-inflammtory way is a coincidense that is hard to beat.
You are right, Linux wins by numbers of servers installed.
But how about sales numbers?
Here is an example: a real company with almost 1,000 servers. Servers, mind you, not desktops- their server room is big and nice looking.
They considered replacing it all with IBM mainframe on Linux- but after comparing price/performance ratio they declined an offer from IBM.
As of today, approximately 500 of their servers run Win NT/2K/2003, 400- Linux on Intel, 100- non-Intel platform UNIXes.
They are in the process of migration, after the migration:
100 Win2003 servers will run the load of 500 Win NT/2K servers. They find it can be done, tested it and are satisfied enough to start migration. That might not work for you- but for specific tasks running at server room of that company it works.
So, Windows will drop to 10% of their server base from 50%. Microsoft will get its Win2003 license fees.
100 non-Intel platform UNIXes will be decomissioned. Too pricey to keep them running. Proprietary UNIXes will drop to 0 in that company.
400 Intel servers which are leftover of Windows transition will be converted to Linux and free of charge Linux distro will be installed on them. That would add long waited excess performace capacity to Linux server pool and also used to replace proprietary UNIX servers in that company.
No Linux vendor will get a dollar from that transition.
******************
So, from pure server numbers point of view a company will move from 50/50 Win/UNIX to 10% Windows and 90% Linux.
From the cash outflow point of view a company will move from $$$ for Windows and $$ for UNIX and 0 for Linux- to $ for Windows and 0 for Linux.
Which tells you that UNIX companies better start packing, Microsoft should try to diversify while it still gets some money from software, and Linux rules because Linux companies and developers apparently can survive without a dollar paid by customers who go almost pure Linux.
By the way, these guys not even considered Apple, even as a joke. They are more than happy to be able to have one set of hardware for all of their servers, and run either Win2003 or Linux on it depending on a software needs.
An Apple can call them back when an Apple has a proven server software running on Xeon and, by the way, that software better be GPLed or real cheap,- this company I am taking about is not in the mood to pay higher prices than Windows Server license for their server software, and would rather pay nothing at all and go 100% Linux if/when they can.
“>win2k3 is selling like hot cakes.
Is it? where is that stated?
Besides that a lot of “would have been a Windows server if Linux would not have existed” are replaced by Linux servers, i am doing it every single day for over 3 years now.
The money is in small and medium sized businesses, that is where the most money is made and economy is running upon.
Those are also the ones that often switch from buggy/ Windows to Linux.”
see here:
http://www.entmag.com/news/article.asp?EditorialsID=6184
“Microsoft declined to release raw sales figures. Instead the company asserted that in the four months after launch, Windows Small Business Server 2003 sold 170 percent more units than Windows 2000 Small Business Server did in its first four months. In its first five months on the market, SBS 2003 has sold more units than SBS 2000 did in its entire first year.”
http://www.winnetmag.com/Article/ArticleID/40077/40077.html
“A new report from market researchers at IDC says that unit shipments of Windows servers were up 21.7 percent in the most recent quarter compared with the previous year, thanks to the Windows Server 2003 release. Likewise, the Windows server market grew almost 12 percent, year over year, IDC says. The figures are based on hardware sales, and IDC noted that the report doesn’t track Microsoft’s earnings from Windows 2003 licenses.
“Windows is prevalent in [the small- and midsized business] market, so it’s getting a piece of the wave,” Mark Melenovsky, research director of Global Enterprise Server Solutions at IDC, said. The report notes that a large portion of Windows 2003 sales have taken place in enterprises that are starting to replace aging Windows NT 4.0-based servers and in small- and midsized businesses, which tend to spend more aggressively than the wider IT market. Presumably, Microsoft can expect a similar wave of migrations when the company releases Microsoft Windows Small Business Server (SBS) 2003 next month; SBS 2003 bundles Windows 2003 with popular Microsoft email, database, and collaboration software and is targeted at small businesses that have less than 75 PCs.
Interestingly, revenues from Windows-based server hardware dropped 6.2 percent from the same quarter a year ago, but IDC attributes that decline to a steep drop in low-end server pricing. With first-tier companies such as Dell and HP offering starter servers for less than $400 in some cases, revenues have dropped despite the fact that these companies are selling more boxes. IDC says that IBM retained the top spot in the Windows-based server market, revenue-wise, with $3.2 million in sales for the quarter and 30.4 percent of the market. HP was number two with $2.9 million–27.7 percent of the market.”
http://www.enterprisenetworksandservers.com/monthly/art.php/738
“Windows servers posted double-digit growth, as revenues grew 16.4 percent and unit shipments grew 26.5 percent in year-over-year comparison.”
http://thewhir.com/marketwatch/hal070704.cfm
“According to Port 80 Software’s (port80software.com) June Web server survey, Microsoft runs on over half of the top 1000 corporate Web sites.
The results of the survey indicate that 53.9 percent of the sites run on Microsoft IIS while 20.3 percent run on Apache and 14.6 percent on Netscape. The remaining 11.2 percent run on various other platforms, including Sun One, Lotus Domino, Weblogic, Webphere, IBM and Zeus.
Port 80 said that looking at the year to date, the overall market share of major Web server platforms has demonstrated only modest change. The company did note that Apache has gained a significant 4 percent market share, but added that much of the increase was due to a slight change in its methodology. Microsoft IIS 6 has shown the greatest growth of any single platform version, Port 80 said, going from 0.5 percent to 5.5 percent in just one year.
Port 80’s survey uses the Web sites of the fortune 1000, a data sample it argues has more relevance for business decision makers. In contrast, Netcraft’s (netcraft.com) Web server survey measures Web server software usage on all Internet connected computers. Its latest survey found that Apache held 67.35 percent of total market share while Microsoft came in at 21.32 percent.
Port 80 Software is a developer of Microsoft Web server add-on tools.”
REPEAT: “Microsoft IIS 6 has shown the greatest growth of any single platform version, Port 80 said, going from 0.5 percent to 5.5 percent in just one year.” IIS 6 runs on WIndows Server 2003.
point made. windows server is selling better than any server platform ms has ever released.
sure linux has tons of $4.99 web servers installed on cheap x86 boxes. but the idea that mac os x server will dent either linux or windows is patently silly.
The problem with OSX is that its really a pain to make anything that isn’t prepackaged work. If I try to attack a problem from a purely unix standpoint I usually run into hell. Compiling is horrible, and OSX is missing some basic things you’ll often need. I admit they’re getting better, but we’ll see how good Tiger is. Apple also doesn’t update their unix documentation. Do a ps and look at all those special OSX applications running on your system, now try to do a man on them. It doesn’t exist does it? Real low level documentation of the os is lack also, nothing clear and authorative exists on exactly how all the interaction between netinfo, ldap, etc work. Generally trying to admin an OSX server like a unix machine is discouraging and frustrating. I have a few BSD machines around to rely on when OSX lets me down. One of the big benefits of open source BSD is their attention to complete documentation. If I want to extend the system it is easy. Apple has a lot to learn there–they focus exclusively on a short list of flashy features and do nothing to help you extend the system.
“windows XP is ok (though most users of it are infected with the latest virus)”
Wrong, I have yet to know a single person who uses it who is. Not that they can’t be but still. Just because it’s out there doesn’t automatically mean you get it.
put that in perspective. who you know and who most people who use windows are are very different groups.
I am not wrong. I said MOST, not ALL.
and I know plenty of people who get Computer Viruses and adware/spyware infected registries and worms. Work tech support for 6 months and then come back at tell me I am wrong.
apple announced the g5 in june of 2003
they shipped it late in the autumn of 2003…not on time.
they sold about 1000 dual g5’s to one customer, va tech, and that caused delays of another month for all other customers. a real enterprise ready server maker is thrown out of whack by supplying just 1000 servers to a client?
they released their new xserve in spring 2004, again late due to problems with the g5 made by ibm. in their most recent quarterly filing, apple claimed their reduced sales of powermacs and xserves was directly related to ibm being unable to supply sufficient numbers of the cpu.
here it is july 2004, 13 months later, and apple has yet to ship a new g5 with even 1mhz of added speed. their top of the line offerings took 12 months to drop in price. they have yet again announced dual 2.5ghz machines, but who knows when they will actually ship?
meanwhile on the pc side, we have seen continued expansion of features and power in both amd’s and intel’s desktop, laptop, workstation, and server lineups. they have been attended by corresponding price drops in the older hardware. you can buy more server today for less on the pc side.
http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/apr2004/tc20040428_6…
this is a consistent repeat of the exact same problems that apple dealt with when getting cpus from motorola for the g4 lineup.
apple is limited to 1 and 2 way servers, no migration path for an apple customer to move to 4, 8, 16, 32, or 64 way servers….the list of reasons why this is simply fantasy could be written until the cows come home.
Dear Enterprise,
Every enterprise needs music. iPod is the answer. The #1 selling luxury MP3 player can also solve your enterprise music problems. We have built an anazing Wurlitzer-like machine that holds thousands of iPod Minis and interchanges them on demand. Mac is “on demand”. We support utility computing via our new “music utility”.
The server is an ingenious design. The outside is a big wheel with four buttons. It is all anodized aluminum. The face plate is two panes of glass with a plasma mesh in between for special effects… which are insanely cool by the way! And then you can also see inside when the robotic whirly gig arm spins all the little iPod Minis around trying to find the right one to satisfy the incoming song request… it is so Clockwork Orange. We love it!
Windows is not important. We don’t see much of it out there anywhere. It is nowhere to be found. In the cool servers market category, Apple is first. We are still the only top tier vendor to be shipping servers with brushed aluminum faceplates. Is that cool or what?
We are so happy here. I sent some guys over to Iraq to see if we can bribe the rulers to make the country standardize on Mac. The US is really ripping the Iraqis off, so we might as well get our share! Maybe one day Mac will be the standard computing platform for “ex-Axis of Evil” countries. As the “Axis of Evil” list is always growing, Apple will be in good shape for the future!
That’s all, faithful ones. Stay in your grace and all that is good will come to you.
Divine vibrations,
Steve
umm, if you had not noticed, in that same period of time, Intel and AMD have been stuck with less than a .5 GHz increase in speed.
also, if you did not notice, there is nothing keeping a G5 from going 4, 8, 16, 32, and 64 way. Apple however is not targeting that market (well they might expand to 4 and 8 way in the future) but they know that the future of computing is clusters and GRIDs, so a 2 way blade with ECC and a SUPER FAT BUS will do very well.
when the g5 was released, amd had not even shipped the athlon 64 yet.
it was shipped at model 3000+
its now at 3800+
when the g5 was released, intel had not even begun shipping the pentium 4 extreme.
it was shipped at 3.2ghz
its now at 3.6ghz
but the list goes on and on.
amd has faster system busses.
intel now has 64 bit extension cpus.
the xeon is now up to 3.6ghz.
pci express is now live on the pc.
ddr2 is now live on the pc.
both intels and amds budget cpus have grown more powerful and less expensive.
both intel and amd ship their most powerful cpus in laptops.
on and on and on
but yes, x86 cpus have not gained in clock speed at the same rate as they have in recent years, but then the g5 has seen NO clock increase.
“G5 was introduced with a 2 GHz Clock. after a year, it has a 2.5 GHz clock.”
can you put one in your hands? no. an announced but unavailable product is still unavailable. by the time it actually ships who know how much faster and less expensive x86 cpus will be.
“the G5 systems had a 1 GHz Bus Speed, now they have a 1.5 GHz Bus speed”
wrong, top apple bus is 1.25ghz
http://www.apple.com/powermac/specs.html
“Pentium M who’s top speed is 1.7 GHz”
wrong, pentium m is now up to 2ghz
http://intel.com/products/notebook/processors/pentiumm/index.htm?ii…
all in all id say you have just written a pack of wrong things so who is in fiction land?
umm, I think you need to look at the apple store. they are there and ready to purchase.
yes, I was off the FSB by 250 MHz, that is not a lie that is an error.
and yes, I was off the new top speed on the Pentium-M, that is ignorence, not a lie.
you on the other hand seem to be talking out of ignorance about all things apple and to not bother to even admit it. not to mention your foolishness in using AMD’s marketing names as evidence of some vast improvement in performance.
Oh, as for the pentium extreme edition, that is a marketing ploy to draw customers because of the same problems that the rest of the industry is having at 90nm. they slapped on a 2 MB cache to the dang chip. why do you think it costs 700 dollars.
that should read “ignorance”
the irony…huh 🙂
if you think so refute it.
“umm, I think you need to look at the apple store. they are there and ready to purchase.”
sure you can buy it now. but it wont ship until at least the end of july. but apples record with shipping g5’s over the last 13 months has been one delay after another. not once has it shipped on time from their initial projections.
as for the opteron, it shipped firs with up to a 1.8ghz clock. it is now at 2.4ghz as you mentioned. a 600mhz increase. and you can order and have in your hands now and have been able to get them for a few months now.
the pentium 4 extreme and xeons have gone up in clock to 3.6ghz and yes they also have 2.5mb of cache. its not a trick. all of that extra cache shows real world speed increases of a substantial degree.
“end of July is a total out of the air assumption on your part and has no basis in fact.”
apple said end of july at wwdc.
message boards have people that have ordered them claiming their emails say end of july.
it didnt start out slower. the opteron shipped 6 months before the g5 thank you.
and the 2.4ghz model has been on the market about 3 months or so now.
so it predates the g5…also running fully 64bit oses.
and its faster now by 400mhz since you cannot get a 2.5ghz g5 now.
dont jump the gun.
I don’t understand why we are seeing so much discussion about clock rates when they’re talking about moving computers from Windows NT 4. More than likely any computer running NT 4 today shipped with it, which means that the discarded junk parts of every upgrade I’ve done on my PC since 1998 would be faster than the computers they’re considering replacing.
In the end, their cheapest option would be to find a Linux or *BSD that will run well on old hardware (note that the system requirements on these have been creeping nearly as fast as Windows and Mac OS X, faster in some cases) and simply dump the Windows licenses.
Still, they have to consider the costs of switching operating systems, so they might as well consider the cost of replacing the systems with eMacs on the way.
Very few people need to replace their NT 4 file and print servers that have been chugging away with monthly reboots for 8 years or more with computers housing 2+ GHz P4s and G5s.
I think what is needed here is proper marketing. It would be easier for companies to migrate everything to Mac OS X then to Linux. They just need to come up with a robust and easy to use email server product. Mac already has the best office suite out there(MS Office) so there wouldn’t be compatibility issue migrating documents. Macs are so friggin easy to use there would be little to no retraining. I see a huge oppourtunity for APpple in business beyond the stereotypical uses(Desktop publishing etc..)