2004 has been a rough-and-tumble year for Linux. PC Pro has a month-by-month summary of the major events in Linux news over the year.
2004 has been a rough-and-tumble year for Linux. PC Pro has a month-by-month summary of the major events in Linux news over the year.
I personally welcome more commercial software. The free choices will continue to be developed and that’s great since many people will want to have a totally free solution. But on the flip side I think more value could be added to linux by commercial support. Talk of commercial apps hurting Linux is silly to me.
I look at products like photoshop and can only hope for the day (I could go on for some time w/ other apps). Just because photoshop supports Linux won’t dissaude the gimp guys from making their excellent software and the same apply’s to any other free software.
I fear that such statements are part of the reason commercial vendors back off from supporting Linux (although the biggest reason is still market share on the desktop, all in due time)
Win2003 server began to see mainstream, shipping with few services running on default install, the attack surface and exploits mark a huge improvement over NT4 and 2K server.
Windows XP SP1 was hacker Swiss cheese, but SP2 brought many welcome security changes to the desktop.
Palm has seen a decline in Palm OS, and now even PalmOne is using windows CE, which has shown a large spike in popularity this year.
So was 2004 really the year of Linux, and more specifically the year of the Linux desktop?
Did Linux really win this year?
Did you read the article?
I think not.
Maybe I miss read this open letter from PalmSource:
http://www.palmsource.com/announcement/linuxletter.html
But I read that they are going to run PalmOS on Linux.
The article was not about Linux “winning”, it was simply a highlighting of major linux related events throughout the year.
That depends on which prespective we are talking from, linux or open source.
If we are considering the adoption of linux, then of cource commercial apps will benefit it. However, if open source is higher on our priority list, then commercial apps are not something we will want on open source operating systems.
It all depends on which is more important to you.
The vast majority of users that value choice want more commercial apps on Linux. It’s happening – maybe a bit slowly, but Stallman doesn’t control linux and he’s free to only use what he considers “morally acceptable” software while the rest of us use the best tool for the job.
I suggest new term: YALY. Yet Another Linux Year. Shamelessly copied from YACC.
YALY 2004. YALY 2005. YALY 2006. YALY 2007: finally 5-7% of desktop penetration, more in Asia less in America (by estimates of industry analysts).
Having Microsoft Windows experience could give you more chances to land a job until YALY 2010 at least. Of course, having Linux experience could let you keep your existent Linux-related job longer, because it would be relatively harder to find someone with similar UNIX/Linux skills to replace you.
Having both Windows and UNIX/Linux experience is your best bet. For many, many more YALYs to come.
The entire month by month review is entirely business targeted. How about the emergance of 2.6 kernel, udev, hotplug, gnome 2.8 and ubuntu. Or even any security related news about Linux. I guess I’ll have to wait for 2005 for these things to become obvious to onlookers.
Linux didn’t hands down win, but SCO sure lost alot of money and street cred in the process. Linux isn’t some soccer team that wins world tournments, it just solves problems and provides an open OS for all to enjoy and improve.
By “little server niche”, you mean “enormous server/workstation/supercomputer/corporate desktop niche”. Linux might never be installed on Aunt Sally’s e-mail and web browsing machine, or little Timmy’s game machine, but it’s already being heavily used in these other lucrative markets, and there is no reason to think that its’ adoption in these markets won’t continue to grow.
If I remember correctly, I was using Photoshop for Linux on Slackware Linux version 3 back in the day. What happened? I have no idea.
AFAIK, Red Hat did not outright purchase Netscape, rather they paid for security and server software.
One needs to remember that the justification is a means to an end. Thus the overall marketing schema should be aimed at making home computing easier not more involved in trying to run emulators or programs without support. In order for any movement to be held in the desktop arena, it has to be met with open arms and a need to change. Otherwise it will remain where it is today, as it was last year and the year before that.
Damon
see a linux article, find a post from lumbergh trying to get in a cheap shot on stallman. why dont you just flame his inbox rather then post it here on osnews where it just fills up space and most likely isnt seen by the intended target?
that is unless the idea is to spread fud for all its worth. im starting to wonder if lumbergh is getting payed for his posts…
The entire month by month review is entirely business targeted.
That’s because PC Pro is targetted at sysadmins/developers in a business setting, or at least that was the case back in the day when I had access to a subscription.
On one hand, I think one has to be realistic and accept that Linux is on its way to the big business and that there’s no way it shall return. Accept that hardware verdors etc will NEVER open up their sources for the latest and greatest flasgship products, not now proprietary software has already found its way into linux. It’s a breeze these days to install proprietary sw on linux. Besides that, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with running a free groundwork with some proprietary software sitting on top of it (among all kinds of OSS). If enterprise X doesn’t want the advantages of FOSS or thinks it’ll lead to a disadvatage, fine, use non OSS.
On the other hand, he may be right about proprietary sw in the long run: binary sw will only lead to more binary sw. This may very well be disadvantegous for linux in general (although I think the resources they receive from the enterprise world makes up for this).
So if you’re a true GNU advocate write your libraries in GPL instead of LGPL (QT vs GTK comes to mind, but only this time QT seems to have a more favourable licensing scheme)
Movie trailes cannot be watched on Yahoo Movies!
Is there a reason for that?
Palm has seen a decline in Palm OS, and now even PalmOne is using windows CE, which has shown a large spike in popularity this year.
I’m afraid you’re listening to too much Microsoft marketing there. Virtually no one is using Windows Mobile unless Microsoft offers manufacturers and networks several hundred million dollars in a joint deal, and then they say “Oh, alright then”. Why do you think Steve Ballmer was so frustrated when he made his little outburst?
“Another problem, is instead of Linux being different, they copy Windows.”
Yeah, except Windows copies Unix and Apple.
“You have to give users the want to switch, not some ‘free’ software they can’t get users to take if it is free.”
And after the 80,000th piece of malware, maybe they’ll finally make a switch.
“Movie trailes cannot be watched on Yahoo Movies!
Is there a reason for that? “
Works ok with mplayer plugin and the the appropriate codecs downloaded – both for quicktime and windows media.
“Another problem, is instead of Linux being different, they copy Windows.”
“Yeah, except Windows copies Unix and Apple.”
That is interesting, I did not know Windows copied Apple and Unix.
“And after the 80,000th piece of malware, maybe they’ll finally make a switch.”
What are you talking about???
I guess you can give a 60 year old Grandma a Linux box and tell them enjoy?
Using a Computer is no different than taking responsibility for your actions. Like driving a car, you have to check the oil, check the tire pressure, keep gas in it.
geez
Win2003 server began to see mainstream, shipping with few services running on default install, the attack surface and exploits mark a huge improvement over NT4 and 2K server.
Linux has been growing at much higher rate than Microsoft solutions on servers. Still, the installed base of microsoft machines is MUCH higher than linux, but looking at the 2004 numbers it looks like that won’t last too much.
Certainly wasnt the “Year of the Linux” on my PC. Just installed Fedora and I cant even log into it! Hah! Well, off on my search for the properly working Linux for me… Feels like i’m searching for the holy grail or something…
Every year since about 1997, every computer rag and journal start in with “this is the year of Linux” with another enumerated list of Linux’ superiority over Windows. And year after year Gates and the MS crew get richer and richer as Windows continues to dominate the 90% or so of the desktop. It seems to be holding its own in the server world as well. I know our company is dumping Novell and a lot of RH Linux (except for the Apache servers) for a mix of AIX and Windows servers (Big Blue on the mainframes).
I don’t mean to sound like an ass here, but some of the comments here are just idiotic. This article is not “The Year of Linux” it’s “This Year in Linux”, just a highlighting of several Linux related happenings throughout the last year.
I guess you can give a 60 year old Grandma a Linux box and tell them enjoy?
Linux would actually be ideal for grandma. It’s not like they’re going to do anything other than browse the web, listen to music, send e-mails, etc. Just set it up for them, lock it down, and remote admin the thing when needed. I’m strongly considering doing this for my own mother — all she needs a web-browser, e-mail client, and a way to get music onto her iPod.
Like driving a car, you have to check the oil, check the tire pressure, keep gas in it.
There is no reason for a computer to be as high-maintainence as a car. In the 3 months since I installed the Ubuntu preview release, the only maintainence I’ve done is “apt-get upgrade” two or three times. In comparison, my WinXP machines give me nothing but trouble. When I got home this month, my mom’s machine was hopelessly broken. I stayed up until 4-am last week reinstalling XP on it. After I was sure everything was working, I shut it down and left for Canada. When I came back on Christmas Day the damn thing was broken again — it’d get and lose its wireless LAN connection every few seconds. Strangely, if I log in as administrator, then disable and reenable the connection a couple of times, it works, but only until the next reboot. The worst part is, the whole reason I bothered to fix it before my trip is because I got my mom an iPod-Mini for Christmas, and wanted her to be able to use it immediately. Well, with no wireless , and thus no CDDB lookup in iTunes, that idea was shot down.
I absolutely do not have the time and patience to babysit Windows XP machines. I have no personal interest in it, of course, because I don’t use it on my own machine, but between my parents, their friends, and my friends, I’ve got to deal with Windows XP’s incredible brain damage on a regular basis, and I absolutely cannot take it anymore. A computer is not a car. Software has no moving parts, is not subject to mechanical wear, it doesn’t have to deal with corrosive saltwater, drastic temperature changes, rust, oxidization, dust, errant shopping carts, or wayward golf balls. It should not degrade with use — unless you actively change something, it should be as good after a year as the day you installed it.
I don’t think you can just give any os to any grandma and expect them to use it right away. If one of the better linux distros came preinstalled in a new pc where it works with all the hardware then I think linux would be close if not the same as windows. Mandrake, lycoris, xandros, linspire, ubuntu are all getting there if not there already. If we’re talking about dual booting then that’s a bit different and you can’t blame linux for that nor windows. It’s a different process since two oses have to coexist and share files. That’s a bit harder to setup.
Linux would actually be ideal for grandma. It’s not like they’re going to do anything other than browse the web, listen to music.
Why don’t we use this example. 3 seconds into your post grandma is already installing and linking Java, Macromedia flash player, and MP3 support.
Java for example is different in various distros, but the instructions taken from the Use Linux From Home website are.
Open a consile
wget http://blahblah.com/j2re-x_x_x_x-linux-i586.rpm
chmod a+x j2re*
su root
rpm -ivh j2re*.rpm
chmod a+x java.sh
mv java.sh /etc/profile.d
cd /usr/local/mozilla/plugins
ln -s /usr/java/j2re1.4.1_04/plugin/i386/ns610/libjavaplugin_oji.so
And sure they can use yum etc, but they still have to edit the yum.conf file and add download mirrors which they can’t do from gui because they don’t have write permission to. SO they can open a console, su to root, cd to the directory, and vi the file or run a gui editor from console.
And yeah, my dads install of windows degrades over time but mine does fine. If I gave him root access to a Linux distro and a crap load of bad software, a linux distro on his machine would probably suffer the same fate.
You’re little scenario is only applicable to those that don’t have a problem with a locked-down environment. Once someone wants to leave that environment then they’re gonna have much more problems with linux because inevitably they’re going to have go down to the command line when things go wrong.
If you don’t want to babysit XP, then install Firefox and setup a router and firewall software. Because at the end of the day if you’re mom ever wants to break out of her locked-down environment she’s gonna have much more problems with Linux at an administrative and applications level.
Rayiner, it’s 2005. If you and/or your mom is so sick of XP, then why haven’t you changed her over before now?
Personally i have never seen a windows setup that can properly handle an ipod without giving the blue screen of death.
It will never cease to amaze me how stupid and ill informed the rest of the world is when it comes to computing, I can only feel relieved that Linux and Apple exist for those in this world who possess intelligence.
The only solution if for those great failures in computing (intel and microsoft) to quietly back out of the industry like they should have long ago. People will be given the option of running either OSX or Linux, and they will be assigned an administator to remotely handle their machine. These machines will have a permanent link to an admin who will have root access (root access will not be available to the user at any time or for any reason!).
Because at the end of the day if you’re mom ever wants to break out of her locked-down environment she’s gonna have much more problems with Linux at an administrative and applications level.
You’re missing the point. Mom or Grandma won’t need to break out of their locked-down environment, because the son/grandson who sets up their box will have set it up so that everything they need is available.
Why would grandma ever need to be root? It’s not as if she’d be installing applications (she wouldn’t even know how to do this in Windows).
Even with Firefox and by using a firewall, Windows installations degrade over time – especially if you install XP SP2, which comes with its own performance degradations over a vanilla XP install.
Hey, at least you didn’t brind Richard Stallman in that specific post…
If they don’t need to break out of the locked-down environment then they are fine. If they do want to eventually, then linux will be a bigger hassle than windows. I don’t buy your premise that every app is going to be there and that every grandma/mom is not going to want to install stuff. The majority might be happy with a nice locked-down environment (Ubuntu anyone?), but not all.
Why would grandma ever need to be root? It’s not as if she’d be installing applications (she wouldn’t even know how to do this in Windows).
Don’t be ridiculous. Plenty of grandmas install software.
Hey, at least you didn’t brind Richard Stallman in that specific post…
No, but I did in the first one since he was belly-aching about something in the last few paragraphs of the article.
You haven’t seen a windows xp that can properly handle an ipod? well i have such machine here, and its being use by my sisters, and they dont reboot or have any blue screens, honestly speaking, the only blue screen I ever had with xp was when I got a bad video card, that had been replaced by the manufacturer. So i really dont know what kind of blue screen everybody is talking about, and i just leave my xp box “on” for months. I dont bother with reboots, since it doesn’t need to reboot.
Don’t be ridiculous. Plenty of grandmas install software.
I think he’s talking about the kind of grandmas who have trouble understanding the concept of clicking the mouse, like mine. My grandmother would never install software, nor would my mom.
Why is OSNEWS slowly [or is it speedily] turning into OSWARS??
Why is everyone battling for their OS?
Some suggestions to
a) Windows Evangelists: Use Windows, make your whole family use Windows and SHUT UP!
b) Linux Evangelists: Use Linux, make your whole family use Linux and SHUT UP!]
IMHO Linux and Windoze are two d/f ecosystems and are both good and bad at the same time depending who you are/ how you look @ Computing !
It would be better if the time we waste here in fighting out may be better used in something constructive like helping improve our fav OS [not by fighting but by posting bugs, writing code etc. etc.]
There are more better things to do!
[Ofcourse if there is a conflict within the family for which OS to use (:D) then it is time for trouble!]
First off all Open Source isn’t free, inform your self …
Second who said people is going to desktop linux or linux is getting the desktop market ?
What i said is that Linux, is without any noise around, gain people, and people are trying Linux…
People can’t use Linux your or even try ? The comment’s you wrote tell’s that no one should use Linux ?
Why ? Give me 3 good reason to change my Gentoo GNU/Linux and switch to Microsoft OS’s ???
put in your mind OPEN SOURCE ISN’t FREEWARE !!!
Many enterprise’s sell is opensource software!!!
The grandma who never installs software and has a full time admin to install software for her (eg. not me) is a figment of your imagination and will remain so. I don’t understand where this creates less administrative overhead that fixing her windows box every 3-6 months.
I tried this with my GF, I installed everything she needed and helped her through using the new replacements. Did this for about a month, and in the end, there were a thousand little things she did not like about using Linux.
Also, unlike most of you, my grandmother has also used Linux, but she is on AOL and I don’t see her much so there is just no hope there.
So anyway, 2004 was predicted to be the year of the Linux desktop (for non-techies), just like 1999. And again, all the people making the grandmother argument were wrong.
When I said back in 99 that Linux dekstop won’t even be close for at least 10 more years people laughed, I don’t remember that anyone agreed with me. Here we are almost 6 years later and it is just about time to start launching predictions of 2005 being TYOTLD, better luck next year.
will make things interesting for stuff like installing java and flash
what is it now, 0.7 and going strong?
every year is a linux as linux is a evolution, not a series of marketing hyped revolutions. the development of linux (the enviroment. and rms feel free to flame me but i will continue to call it linux
is behaveing like a living organism. its a prosess of continual feedback and improvements. compare that to apple and ms that try to dazzle with new user experiences every so often. if it works, keep it, if it dont then prune the code tree. apes and humans developed from the same genepool, you can in many ways say that linux and the bsds did so from unix. osx did so to but looks more and more like one of those birds with insane tails. and as marketing dont have a effect on where the code goes its survival of the best code rather then survial of the most hyped code.
… Turns into a Linux vs Windows war… gee, thanks guys!
To the folks who are seeing, like me, Linux evolve amazingly every year, let’s celebrate. Leave alone the bitter guys trying to turn this into a Linux vs Windows war.
A big thanks to all FOSS devs,
Victor.
While I agree that most OS’s aren’t peticularly easy for inexperienced users to use… just one example of why I think Linux is ahead of Microsoft currently:
I plug in my USB cam, expecting to have to go find drivers etc… and before I even got back to looking at the screen, I am presented with a dialogue asking whether I wish to import the pictures…
Compare this to my experience with the same cam on Windows… EVERY time I use it, I must reinstall the software to make it work. I have no idea whats even wrong with it, it just simply won’t work :/
I believe this is a little more convenient and easy to learn, no?
Only stumbling block for Grandma today is media plugins, but if those are configured too, Linux is a better choice for grandma than Windows XP TODAY!
Anyone that says its not simply hasn’t used Linux lately.
>Compare this to my experience with the same cam on Windows… EVERY time I use it, I must reinstall the software to make it work. I have no idea whats even wrong with it, it just simply won’t work…
What do you think, is your experience common for ALL buyers of digital cameras, all milions of them?
I helped my brother to set his new CASIO USB camera. I set software in such a way that it *automatically* copies all pictures from the camera to the My Pictures folder, and it dates them accordingly, puts to subfolders properly, does everything.
All is left for him is to navigate to My Pictures, open folder, say, 20041112, and see all pictures he took on November 12, 2004.
I have no idea whats so special about CASIO camera, it just simply works…
“Mom or Grandma won’t need to break out of their locked-down environment, because the son/grandson who sets up their box will have set it up so that everything they need is available.”
Yes, you are correct. I set up Windows XP boxes for my senior citizen relatives, the environment is locked down, they don’t need to break it.
That configuration just works. For Windows XP. Nice and sound.
I check their computers bi-weekly, no traces of spyware, viruses, ad-ware, system degradation.
If you know how to properly set up Windows for masses:), then you would not have masses having issues using Windows.
“Why would grandma ever need to be root? It’s not as if she’d be installing applications (she wouldn’t even know how to do this in Windows).”
She does not, so why should I force her to move to some other locked-down OS if locked-down Windows fits her well?
“Even with Firefox”
IE does just fine. Surprised? Well, may be you don’t know how to configure Windows, and its applications, but some people do.
“Windows installations degrade over time – especially if you install XP SP2”
That’s a lie. Mod me down if you wish: but a lie is a lie is a lie.
I have all Windows XP computers I take care of upgraded to SP2 when it came, no performance degradation noticed since then. And no, I do not reinstall OS every 6 months, do not defrag harddrives monthly, or reboot Windows hourly. No need to do that.
Yes, may be, under some conditions, doing some unusual stuff OS performance will degrade, but insisting that XP or XP SP2 installation will degrade over the time unconditionally no matter what- is a plain clear lie.
That lie would not help people who know how to use Windows to switch to Linux: quite opposite.
Linux didn’t hands down win, but SCO sure lost alot of money and street cred in the process. Linux isn’t some soccer team that wins world tournments, it just solves problems and provides an open OS for all to enjoy and improve.
SCO literally proved none of their points at all. The SCO vs DC case they lost. The SCO vs IBM case they’re losing, and they’re trying to win time via various ways. I’m not holding my breath nor am i scared for them. Besides that, they lost a lot of money as well, yes. They lost much more than they gained via their litigation campaign.
will make things interesting for stuff like installing java and flash
I cut the wink. This doesn’t sound very bad at all and they aim for 1.0 in feb 2005. One concern that i have, which i admit i haven’t looked into, is wether thats legal. Another one is, how do you get Autopackage easily installed on the OS? Hopefully its included (via a package?) in the OS by then, but Autopackage can’t use its own solution for its own problem because it depends on itself to be installed first. If they release 1.0 and make it a little bit more easier (for creating a .package) i’m going to consider it.
Loki installer is also very good for Linux games. Its a piece of cake to use it and install a game. And its open source so new games can use it as well, and/or enhance it (old versions of Loki Installer have some problems).
I think 2004 was a good year for FD.o and i think 2005 will contnue to be, where FD.o is the root of a user-friendly Lnux desktop which is suits the needs for some businesses, and slowly but surely increases the needs for home users as well. Some projects i’m excited about (not all related to FD.o): Project Utopia, Autopackage, KDE accessibility, VideoLAN, Enlightenment. Haiku also made some impressive improvements.
AutoPackage doesnt require any installation of Autopackage before using it
[If you know what I mean!]
You just download a Package file [eg. the Gimp] and execute it! Rest will be done automagically !
Try it out today!
Autopackage is good but its development IMHO is sl…ow!
I think all distros shud be embracing it, then only it will be real successful. And finally I would be able to say that ‘Package Installation is Indeed Eazy on Linux My Friends!’
Didn’t knew that. That’s the same situation as with the Loki installer and its good news! Someone who creates an Autopackage (which is what i want to) will need to have Autopackage installed though.
In this situation, there are some static values when building this specific software which are otherwise hard to edit (i had the same problem with creating a .deb). Finally, it has some 3rd party scripts which are executed from the Makefile which i’m not sure about wether these will work with Autopackage. I’m gonna try it now and see where the ship hits the rock, perhaps i’ll get it working some time.
3 seconds into your post grandma is already installing and linking Java, Macromedia flash player, and MP3 support.
I don’t know about your grandma, but my parents couldn’t do that stuff in *Windows*. When it comes to installing stuff, I have to do it all anyway, and since I have no problem using apt-get, this really isn’t a hurdle. This is precisely why I used the “grandma” analogy: the idea is that she has a very specific, fixed set of requirements, which can be planned for ahead of time. Surprisingly, a lot of people fit into this mold — many office workers, for example.
And yeah, my dads install of windows degrades over time but mine does fine. If I gave him root access to a Linux distro and a crap load of bad software, a linux distro on his machine would probably suffer the same fate.
Why the heck would you give him root access to the Linux machine? Again, I think you miss the point of the grandma analogy.
You’re little scenario is only applicable to those that don’t have a problem with a locked-down environment.
I’m pretty sure I implied as much in my post.
Once someone wants to leave that environment then they’re gonna have much more problems with linux because inevitably they’re going to have go down to the command line when things go wrong.
I don’t disagree, though this is getting less true as time goes on. I’ve got an RHEL server that I set up entirely without the command line — the built-in GUI tools work just fine.
If you don’t want to babysit XP, then install Firefox and setup a router and firewall software.
The RHEL server I just mentioned is acting as a firewall for all the XP machines. Viruses and the like aren’t really the problem here, but rather, general defects in Windows. Specifically, the type of annoying problems that you have no idea how to solve (like the network card problem I mentioned), and which Windows’s poor diagnostics support prevents you from solving.
Because at the end of the day if you’re mom ever wants to break out of her locked-down environment she’s gonna have much more problems with Linux at an administrative and applications level.
If she ever told me that she wanted to install some software, it’d be something of an event, as she really has no conception of software nor does she know that you have to install it.
Rayiner, it’s 2005. If you and/or your mom is so sick of XP, then why haven’t you changed her over before now?
My mom has no idea what “XP” is. So she isn’t sick of it per-se, she just thinks that “computers” act like that. As for why *I* haven’t installed Linux — my dad sometimes uses the same machine, and his remote email thing at work doesn’t work on Firefox.
I don’t buy your premise that every app is going to be there and that every grandma/mom is not going to want to install stuff.
Since most apps anyone would need are there by default in a Linux install, there is little need for grandma/mom to install anything. In any case, the son/grandson will make sure that everything works first.
The majority might be happy with a nice locked-down environment (Ubuntu anyone?), but not all.
True. I’m talking about the majority. The minority can learn how to use Red Carpet, rpmdrake, Lindows Click’N’Run or XandrOS Networks, which are all easier to use to install software than the Windows method.
Don’t be ridiculous. Plenty of grandmas install software.
Really? Such as? Again, when you say “plenty”, do you mean a majority? Because I’m only concerned with the majority here. I’d be curious to hear what software the majority of grandma installs, considering most use a PC for a) e-mail, b) surfing the Web, c) listening to music and d) writing the occasional letter.
No, but I did in the first one since he was belly-aching about something in the last few paragraphs of the article.
Please, we’re not interested in your Stallman obsession. Keep it to yourself, or design an anti-Stallman web site. This is getting really annoying.
Hey where are the tree good reason to change my Gentoo Gnu/Linux to windows OS’s ???
You are talking and talking and talking but you don’t say nothing new and that make me change to windows …
AOL maybe in the past used Unix … not Linux …
And for your information 65% of the server market are (*BSD, SOLARIS, Linux, UNIX) …
*Nix was built to be robust and secure at the begin…
If you put root in anyone and admin windows in anyone, you will be suprised … I bet you that windows will be in a mess more quickly then *Nix
wanna bet ?
*nix don’t need mass publicity and don’t need war’s to survive, many *nix based system are open source, and because that, there will be someone using and changing and seeing that code.
and Jim Windows have 90% of desktop market, Microsoft is rich with lot of Money, what where the major improment’s in last 4 years ?
.NET ? and ??? … oh ieh Xbox, that is good for you…
If you know how to properly set up Windows for masses:), then you would not have masses having issues using Windows.
Once you’ve properly warned them about viruses, spyware, worms…
I find it simpler, if someone doesn’t need an app that’s not available under Linux, to just set them up a locked-down Linux box (with SSH for remote administration). That way I don’t have to worry about malware, which despite your constant denial remains a constant problem on Windows.
I check their computers bi-weekly, no traces of spyware, viruses, ad-ware, system degradation.
I don’t even need to check their system. If something goes wrong, they call me. It almost never happens.
She does not, so why should I force her to move to some other locked-down OS if locked-down Windows fits her well?
Who said anything about moving? My grandma has never used anything but Linux, and she doesn’t even know the difference!
Let me put it this way: why should I force her to use Windows, encouraging an abusive monopoly and exposing her to 100,000 viruses, worms and other pieces of malware. Note that I don’t pirate software (I work for a game developer, so to me pirating software is personal), so it’s also a saving of a couple of hundred dollars.
Windows = malware, spyware, extra costs
Linux = peace of mind, free
The choice isn’t too hard.
IE does just fine. Surprised? Well, may be you don’t know how to configure Windows, and its applications, but some people do.
With Linux, I don’t have to go an extra mile and spend precious time to make sure grandma won’t nuke her system using Internet Explorer and its lingering unpatched vulnerabilities.
In any case, Firefox is a much better browser…why would you stick with IE if not for your obvious pro-MS bias?
That’s a lie. Mod me down if you wish: but a lie is a lie is a lie.
I’ve seen it happen, more than once. To be fair, these were systems where lots of apps were installed and removed. But it happens, and burying your head in the sand won’t make it go away.
I have all Windows XP computers I take care of upgraded to SP2 when it came, no performance degradation noticed since then.
Do what I did: take two identical computers, install a vanilla WinXP on one, and install WinXP SP2 on the other. I’m sorry to burst your bubble, but there is a noticeable performance degradation on the SP2 machine.
And no, I do not reinstall OS every 6 months, do not defrag harddrives monthly, or reboot Windows hourly. No need to do that.
Strawman argument. I never claimed that you needed to do that. Just that overall performance declines if you install and uninstall lots of stuff, and that SP2 does not perform as well as the original XP (though it is a lot more secure).
That lie would not help people who know how to use Windows to switch to Linux: quite opposite.
It is not a lie, and who cares if it makes people switch or not. That’s besides the point. The point is that, for cost (both in time and money) and security reason, it makes more sense to me to have locked-down Linux PCs for grandmas than Windows ones.
Of course, if you don’t care about piracy, then the dollar cost isn’t as important, but as you said yourself you still need to spend time to properly configure and secure Windows before it’s safe to use, and you need to check up on them periodically. With Linux, if you don’t install any services (which you wouldn’t for a Linux box) it’s pretty secure out-of-the-box, since the malware problem is practically inexistant.
To me the choice is simple.
So pretty much the idea of Linux on the desktop requires every user has a full time administrator at their disposal. Most people would throw a fit just locking them into a restriced Windows account and you want to lock them down and migrate them to a brand new platform?
This scenario would require one in 4 users become a UNIX admin so they can mantain and train the rest of the people.
I don’t like supporting other peoples crap as it is, desktop linux would make my life a disaster in that case.
Hell, I am tired of being the admin on my own Linux boxes, A nun, he moos, how bout I give you root access to my Linux box and YOU can fix my sound card driver. While you are at it you can fix my graphics card so I can get a better frame rate in tux racer.
What, you don’t have time? Then I guess you better find a new basis for your arguement.
So pretty much the idea of Linux on the desktop requires every user has a full time administrator at their disposal. Most people would throw a fit just locking them into a restriced Windows account and you want to lock them down and migrate them to a brand new platform?
Can you try not changing the subject, please? We’re talking about grandma, who uses the computer for a limited number of uses. Whether I install Windows or Linux, I’m going to have to play adminstrator, so I’d rather do it with the one that’s going to require the lesser amount of time. IMO that happens to be Linux. So come down from your freakin’ horse and try to understand what we’re talking about before spouting off nonsense.
This scenario would require one in 4 users become a UNIX admin so they can mantain and train the rest of the people.
Actually, it’s more like 1 in 12, because the boxes are so easy to maintain. Meanwhile, I’m acting as a freakin’ Windows tech support technician for about a dozen friends and family members. That’s too much to handle.
I don’t like supporting other peoples crap as it is, desktop linux would make my life a disaster in that case.
Desktop Windows would make it even worse.
Hell, I am tired of being the admin on my own Linux boxes, A nun, he moos, how bout I give you root access to my Linux box and YOU can fix my sound card driver.
Sure. Just post your IP and root password here, and I’ll have a look! 🙂
Seriously, your whole argument is based on the premise that such support isn’t necessary on Windows, while my experience tells me that the situation is actually worse on Windows than on Linux.
While you are at it you can fix my graphics card so I can get a better frame rate in tux racer.
NVIDIA or ATI? If it’s NVIDIA, make sure you install the driver after upgrading xorg or XFree86, as you need the symlinks set up by the NVIDIA installer.
What, you don’t have time?
I don’t have time to babysit Windows computers, but monitoring Linux computers takes up very little of my time. Go figure.
[i]Then I guess you better find a new basis for your arguement.
My argument still stand. Yours, however, is based on a faulty premise and is therefore invalid.
Sorry, I forgot to close that last italics tag. The last portion of my message should read like thus:
What, you don’t have time?
I don’t have time to babysit Windows computers, but monitoring Linux computers takes up very little of my time. Go figure.
Then I guess you better find a new basis for your arguement.
My argument still stand. Yours, however, is based on a faulty premise and is therefore invalid.
Yours, however, is based on a faulty premise and is therefore invalid.
I support PC’s for my family too, and most applications they are able to install and figure out without my help.
Often when my grandmother or Father need help, they can ask my brother or aunt, who are not admins, but at least know enough basics to keep most problems from reaching me.
My premise may be false in your case, but definately not in mine.
I disagree, it is moving at a fast pace with 1.0 expected in ealry 2005. In fact You can create autopackages now BTW because the API is frozen from now until eternity (well maybe till 2.0…;))
I support PC’s for my family too, and most applications they are able to install and figure out without my help.
Okay, we are no longer talking about a locked-down system here. However, that is irrelevant, as modern Linux distros make installing new software easier than on Windows (think of RedCarpet, Click’N’Run or Xandros Network).
Let me ask you this, however: do the people you support run as Administrator? Because most programs won’t install properly if you don’t have admin rights. (Thankfully, Firefox installs without a hitch, or I wouldn’t be using it at work…)
What I found is that, with Linux installed and configured, most people will not need additional programs installed, so the point is in most cases moot…
Often when my grandmother or Father need help, they can ask my brother or aunt, who are not admins, but at least know enough basics to keep most problems from reaching me.
What kind of problems are you talking about? And what makes you think these problems would be any harder to solve on a modern Linux system?
My premise may be false in your case, but definately not in mine.
Well, then by definition it is invalid, because my experience has shown me that Windows machines are more of a hassle to manage than Linux machines. Since you seemingly only do family support for Windows machines, how can you compare?
Again, let’s stay within context. We were talking about a locked-down computing environment used for a set of well-defined tasks (which is what most people do with a computer in the first place). Since I’m going to be playing tech support no matter what, I’d rather do it for Linux systems as I have consistently found them easier to manage once they’ve been set up. YMMV.
@A nun, he moos: Once you’ve properly warned them about viruses, spyware, worms…
I absolutely agree with your statement. Heck, how am I supposed to explain about viruses and proper maintainence to someone who doesn’t even understand the concept of a program?
Since I’m going to be playing tech support no matter what, I’d rather do it for Linux systems as I have consistently found them easier to manage once they’ve been set up.
Very true. Just compare, for example, APT to Windows Update. There is no contest.
@Anonymous: So pretty much the idea of Linux on the desktop requires every user has a full time administrator at their disposal.
That’s not really the point here. The point here is that a lot of people *do* have a full time administrator. For example, nearly everyone who uses computers in an office or educational setting has a dedicated admin. Nearly all such computers are locked down, even running Windows, because allowing users to muck with their systems causes the cost of maintainence to skyrocket.
My premise may be false in your case, but definately not in mine.
But we’re not talking about your case. We’re talking about the prototypical “grandma” case — a completely new user who has someone available to help. The fact that it doesn’t fit *your* particular grandma is irrelevent — the “grandma” analogy is something that you’ll see elsewhere in such discussions, and something that has an established meaning.
Since you seemingly only do family support for Windows machines, how can you compare?
Well I have supported both Linux and Windows for family. I find in my case that supporting windows requires less of my time because almost every person I know that owns a computer is at least able to install software on windows. In the even they don’t know, they don’t need to ask an admin, but just any other joe that owns a computer.
What I found is that, with Linux installed and configured, most people will not need additional programs installed, so the point is in most cases moot…
Note “and configured”, the devil, his sons, and some demons are in the details there..
“We were talking about a locked-down computing environment”
The users of the Windows boxes I support are not “locked” into restricted accounts. Maybe the reason it is a pain in your ass to support windows is because you are from the Linux mentality that users shuld not have admin access to their own computers.
The idea of locking people out of their own computers has not been too popular with them so far, and I am willing to ber the concept won’t pick up much steam in 2005 either.
Your scenario short sightedly divides everyone into either professional administrator or brand new user. It fails to account for the ~96% that fall in the middle.
This 96% I believe are the people Linux neglects. Take for one example, the file layout.
A brand new user does not have to know where things are, linux works for this person.
Someone in the middle would find all the apps thrown in /bin /sbin /usr/bin /usr/sbin /etc etc. confusing. Why not put them in /apps/firefox and /apps/gimp etc?
An admin knows why the system is the way it is, and knows where/how to find files on the disk, Linux works for this person also.
So they “granny” scenario makes the assumption that users know nothing and all have an admin at their disposal.
This is the very design concept of Linux and this will not change, not in 2005, not in 2006, and not in 2007.
So before anyone again decides to jump the gun and declare 2005 the year of the Linux desktop, I beg them to reconsider.
And I beg you to reconsider whether you really qualify for taking part in this discussion.
Well so far the linux “experts” have been wrong every year since 1998 predicting Linux’s entry on Joe users desktop. The odds are 6/0 in my favor. If you don’t think I am qualified to say 2005 won’t be the year either I hope you don’t bet on horses.
[/i]Your comment about admin access for everybody being a good thing is against common sense[/i]
Sure, but it does not make it any less popular.
[/i]and the one about UNIX file layout is silly and merely exposes your insufficient knowledge about the subject[/i]
Actually I pointing out that the method of placing everything all over the disk is really not suited for desktop use. I have read FHS and understand the file system, but it was never designed for GUI applications.
I think /bin and /usr/bin should be used for command line tools, but not GUI applications.
Apple, and Microsoft, and BeOS agree with me, what makes you so sure you are right and I am wrong?
FHS treats GUI apps the same as command line tools. Arguing that this is the way it should stay hardly makes you more qualified to predict 2005 than me.
My personal Linux On The Desktop year 2004 has been fun and productive. I haven’t yet wiped off my WindowsXP partition but when I visit it sometimes (to download security updates), it feels unfamiliar and kludgy when compared to my beautiful, fast and functional Linux desktop.
Happy New Linux Year, all fellow Linux users! 🙂
I find in my case that supporting windows requires less of my time because almost every person I know that owns a computer is at least able to install software on windows.
The problem is, the more software they install, the more support you’ll end up having to do, because they will invariably fsck up their install, install spyware, malware, etc.
Note, again, that I’m talking about the “lite user” scenario, i.e. someone who uses a computer for a definite set of tasks. I’m not saying a locked-down scenario is for everyone. Most of what you say is true, but misses the original point I was making.
Note “and configured”, the devil, his sons, and some demons are in the details there..
Of course you need to configure the machine – I’m not going to give grandma a vanilla install. What’s wrong with configuring the PC before giving it to the user?
Note: you have to do this for Windows as well, and the Windows GUI configuration tools are no less complex than the Linux GUI configuration tools in most cases, especially when dealing with computer newbies (which is, again, the subject of our discussion here).
The users of the Windows boxes I support are not “locked” into restricted accounts.
That is what we were talking about. Of course, if you take what I said out of context then it doesn’t work anymore…
Maybe the reason it is a pain in your ass to support windows is because you are from the Linux mentality that users shuld not have admin access to their own computers.
Okay, let’s get something straight: I come from the Windows world. I’ve used Windows since version 2.0, all the way to Win2K (a little bit of XP, but essentially on other people’s computers). I don’t believe that users should ever use their computer as Admin, because that is extremely insecure. That is not to say that they should never have Admin access, of course the problem is that if you give them Admin access they’ll want to use their system as Admins all the time because it’s less of a hassle, and the security implications aren’t always crystal-clear.
The Windows boxes I do family support for are not locked-down environments – hence the large amount of time I spend fixing things. The locked-down Linux boxes I admin only serve to do a few select number of things: e-mail, web surfing, media playing, light office work and playing solitaire/puzzle games. They do these things very well, but of course we are talking about a specific setup. Please don’t confuse the issues.
Your scenario short sightedly divides everyone into either professional administrator or brand new user.
No it doesn’t. YOU interpreted it that way. I was specifically talking about casual computer users (with makes more than 4% of users IMHO) who need to do a specific set of tasks and who will only rarely need to install new software.
Someone in the middle would find all the apps thrown in /bin /sbin /usr/bin /usr/sbin /etc etc. confusing. Why not put them in /apps/firefox and /apps/gimp etc?
It may seem confusing if you come from a land of drive letters, but when you understand it it makes a lot more sense. In any case, Windows isn’t known for file layout consistency either: apps (especially games) regularly install themselves in folders outside of Program Files. And don’t get me started on the “Microsoft Shared” or “Applications Data” folders…
So they “granny” scenario makes the assumption that users know nothing and all have an admin at their disposal.
Well, I’m sorry but that’s the case for the majority of 50+ year-olds who use computers. Grandma usually knows nothing, and has an admin to install/configure her computer. I just want to make sure that I spend as little time as possible administering that computer.
So before anyone again decides to jump the gun and declare 2005 the year of the Linux desktop, I beg them to reconsider.
Nobody’s said that this year was the year of the Linux desktop. I think you misinterpreted the article title: it means “what happened in the Linux world this year”, not “this year belonged to Linux”. And the article is as much about Linux in server space (where it is making rapid progress) as on the desktop (where progress is slower, but still positive).
I don’t know about your grandma, but my parents couldn’t do that stuff in *Windows*.
Oh, c’mon, Rayiner. Let’s not exaggerate. The vast number of people are capable of clicking on a link in their web browser and clicking through a few installation steps without any trouble. The problem with Linux is that it’s way, way, way, way, way more complex to achieve the same results.
When it comes to installing stuff, I have to do it all anyway, and since I have no problem using apt-get, this really isn’t a hurdle. This is precisely why I used the “grandma” analogy: the idea is that she has a very specific, fixed set of requirements, which can be planned for ahead of time. Surprisingly, a lot of people fit into this mold — many office workers, for example.
This is actually very simple to do with Windows. Why Linux advocates feel that it’s necessary to move from Unlocked-Down Windows to Locked-Down Linux … when they could simply move to Locked-Down Windows is somewhat baffling and not easily justified.
The problem with Linux is that it’s way, way, way, way, way more complex to achieve the same results.
False. It’s as easy to install software on a modern, newbie-friendly Linux box as it is on a Windows XP computer.
It’s bigotry, jm. The OSS goons are simply spreading FUD in a vain attempt to convert you to their “religion”.
It seems the anti-Linux goon still feel like they need to spread FUD and use loaded terms such as “religion” to protect their beloved monopoly…
This is actually very simple to do with Windows. Why Linux advocates feel that it’s necessary to move from Unlocked-Down Windows to Locked-Down Linux … when they could simply move to Locked-Down Windows is somewhat baffling and not easily justified.
Here’s a few reasons:
a) It’s actually more work to create a locked-down Windows environmnent than a Linux one (see Kiosk for KDE to see how easy it is to lock various features)
b) It’s a lot cheaper to install and maintain a Linux box (no licenses or upgrades to buy – unless you condone piracy)
c) There’s a little problem with Windows called malware. There are now over 100,000 viruses, trojans and worms that affect Windows. No such problems on Linux.
d) Linux PCs require less maintenance than Windows PCs, so they leave more free time to the Family Support Technician.
e) Such users can easily do all they need to do with a Linux PC, so why force Windows onto them?
False. It’s as easy to install software on a modern, newbie-friendly Linux box as it is on a Windows XP computer.
C’mon, nun. Don’t lie here. First, a user clicking on an app in the browser isn’t going to be able to install something under Linux because he/she will probably lack root privileges to install. Requiring a user to do a su in order to install is just ridiculous. Your assertion is false.
It seems the anti-Linux goon still feel like they need to spread FUD and use loaded terms such as “religion” to protect their beloved monopoly…
Look, you may not like the fact that people have identified you and others as OSS zealots — but perhaps you can take consolation in the fact that there are a lot of you.
a) It’s actually more work to create a locked-down Windows environmnent than a Linux one (see Kiosk for KDE to see how easy it is to lock various features)
Not true. For starters, create a restricted user account. Then use the system policy editor to enable/disable whichever features you want. And the best part is that AD-based networks can automatically apply policy to any user that logs in — which greatly reduces the cost of implementing policy across a network.
b)It’s a lot cheaper to install and maintain a Linux box (no licenses or upgrades to buy – unless you condone piracy)
A pipe dream. Not when you factor in training, the cost of buying and/or rewriting existing applications, and support. Linux zealots seem to forget that somebody actually has to maintain their stuff after they install it.
c) There’s a little problem with Windows called malware. There are now over 100,000 viruses, trojans and worms that affect Windows. No such problems on Linux.
So what. I’ve never been bitten by malware of any kind. Why not? Because I use a firewall, I don’t install software off of the Web, I quarantine all email attachments, and I don’t browse p0rn or haxorz sites. My attack surface is non-existent. The same is true for any other properly administered Windows installation.
d) Linux PCs require less maintenance than Windows PCs, so they leave more free time to the Family Support Technician.
Nonsense. Pure rubbish. I administer and run both Windows and Linux every day. Don’t try to tell me that Linux requires less maintenance. I can’t count the number of times that I’ve had to restore broken Linux installations.
e) Such users can easily do all they need to do with a Linux PC, so why force Windows onto them?
Nobody’s being forced. The market has spoken. People buy Windows because it does precisely what they want it to do. And given that Linux doesn’t have the selection of apps that the average person runs — top-quality games (not some cr@p dished out by some freeware site, etc — it will never achieve market dominance.
C’mon, nun. Don’t lie here.
I’m not lying, and I take exception to that.
First, a user clicking on an app in the browser isn’t going to be able to install something under Linux because he/she will probably lack root privileges to install. Requiring a user to do a su in order to install is just ridiculous. Your assertion is false.
In Windows, you increasingly have to provide the Administrator password to install programs. So there’s no difference between Linux and Windows on this point: if you start the program installer app on Linux, you will be asked for the root password just like in Windows.
So my assertion is true, and yours is false.
Look, you may not like the fact that people have identified you and others as OSS zealots — but perhaps you can take consolation in the fact that there are a lot of you.
Calling others “zealots” instead of actually challenging their arguments is nothing more than an ad hominem attack. It is a logical fallacy, and damages your credibility more than mine. As it happens, I am far from what you’d consider an OSS zealot, since I use proprietary apps (even on my Linux system) and work for a game developer making proprietary applications.
Since I’m pretty sure you’ll keep using these false labels, I’ll simply call you an anti-Linux zealot. How’s that for you?
Not true. For starters, create a restricted user account. Then use the system policy editor to enable/disable whichever features you want. And the best part is that AD-based networks can automatically apply policy to any user that logs in — which greatly reduces the cost of implementing policy across a network.
Please pay attention. We’re talking about a single desktop for grandma here – and she’s unlikely to be on an AD-based network! And the Kiosk UI is much better (and more powerful, IMO) than the system policy editor.
If you must keep changing the subject in order to support your point, then perhaps it’s because you don’t have much of a point in the first place.
A pipe dream. Not when you factor in training, the cost of buying and/or rewriting existing applications, and support. Linux zealots seem to forget that somebody actually has to maintain their stuff after they install it.
Again, please stick to the subject. Grandma won’t need more training on Linux than on Windows (and in fact, studies have shown that even for office workers the amount of retraining is minimal, so let’s just kill that myth already). She also won’t need to “rewrite existing applications.” Get a clue.
What you anti-Linux zealots refuse to admit is that maintaining a Linux install is less work overall than maintaining a Windows install. ALL studies on the subject shows that it takes less admin to manage a certain number of Linux PCs than a similar number of Windows PCs.
And of course, there’s the cost for a Windows license. Unless you’re advocating piracy, which you seem to be doing by remaining silent on the subject.
So what. I’ve never been bitten by malware of any kind. Why not? Because I use a firewall, I don’t install software off of the Web, I quarantine all email attachments, and I don’t browse p0rn or haxorz sites. My attack surface is non-existent.
That’s a lot of work to keep your PC safe. I don’t expect Grandma to quarantine attachments. All she needs is a firewall.
But if you don’t think malware is a problem in the Windows world, perhaps you’d like to explain to us how come malware costs to the economy were estimated at between $166 to $202 billion in 2004?
Talk about malware with MS zealots, and see how quickly they bury their head in the sand.
Nonsense. Pure rubbish. I administer and run both Windows and Linux every day. Don’t try to tell me that Linux requires less maintenance.
I’m not saying it, every study on the matter does. Every single one of them. And I’ll corroborate it from experience at work (about 170 employees). The Linux servers require BY FAR the least maintenance than our Windows servers.
I can’t count the number of times that I’ve had to restore broken Linux installations.
To paraphrase you: c’mon, SmarterThanYou, don’t lie.
Nobody’s being forced. The market has spoken.
The market hasn’t said its last word, which is why Linux has been enjoying a steady growth over the past few years, and will continue to do so. That anti-Linux zealots don’t like will not change that fact.
People buy Windows because it does precisely what they want it to do.
Few people buy Windows – it comes pre-installed on their PCs. However, in many cases Linux would do exactly what they want to do as well, and so would be a viable alternative.
And given that Linux doesn’t have the selection of apps that the average person runs — top-quality games
The vast majority of people play on game consoles, not PCs. PC gaming has been in decline for years. Consoles have a much better selection of top-quality games than PCs. I know, I work in the industry and I see the figures. Take me, a true gamer: I play games on my PS2 or Xbox and work, surf the web, use e-mail and edit videos on my Linux PC. (I do play some games on my Linux PC, such as Warcraft III, Doom 3, Half-Life 2, Max Payne and Unreal Tournament 2004 – real “cr@p” game, as you can see.)
You’ve got any more of that FUD for me to dispel?