Home > Apple > Getting served on XmasGetting served on Xmas Submitted by Harve 2005-01-08 Apple 47 CommentsInterview with the man being sued by Apple for leaking a prerelease of 10.4 to the Apple torrent site and the admin of the bittorrent tracker.About The Author Eugenia LoliEx-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli 47 Comments 2005-01-08 4:41 pm This guy is putting on a show I don’t buy. He claims to be an active member of the Mac community, then claims he didnt think there would be anything wrong with sharing this software. Come on. Use some common sense. 2005-01-08 5:13 pm It is obvious that he is very naive. He is old enouh to know better but in his zeal for attention (or whatever) he made a monumental miscalculation. And, yes, common sense should have told him that.At least he seems willing to face the consequences of his actions. That is better then the all too common, “It’s not my fault” approach.Companies hold the breaching of a secrecy agreement as grievous and will usually take immediate action. Apple is not being nasty. Most other companies would do the same thing.It will be interesting to see what the outcome will be. 2005-01-08 5:16 pm Apple is well known for their NDAs. Given that you only get the Beta if you’re an ADC member who has paid $500 for the privilege, how on earth is he trying to justify that it’s alright to upload it to share with others? The logic escapes me.However, it’s still good to see that he owns up to his mistake. That takes a lot of guts, and he deserves kudos for that. Hopefully, Apple won’t be too harsh on him. 2005-01-08 6:42 pm I could almost hear violins playing while I read that. Such a sad sad story…NOT. What a load of “poor pitiful me” BS. You got caught. I find it hard to believe that a pre-med student is so dumb that he would honestly not know that he was crossing the line. Be a freakin man and take your punishment without trying to lay the groundwork for a plea for sympathy from the jury. Good grief!!! 2005-01-08 6:53 pm poor guy. he should never have agreed to this interview. 2005-01-08 6:59 pm “You have the right to remain silent.”“I choose to waive that right. Waaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh!” 2005-01-08 7:04 pm So Apple has never beend sued. Please people. Stop defending these companies like you hold shares in the company. Big deal for a freaking beta. These companies do worst things, but I never see nobody going to jail. Give me a break. 2005-01-08 9:20 pm are you 12?we live in a system of laws… you do not obey those laws you are liable for civil and/or criminal litigation, even if the entity that brings the complain against you is on someone’s “list of entities to hate”. 2005-01-08 9:24 pm wow this guy is really naive. not only for what he did, but for giving this interview before the trial. where is his lawyer during all this? 2005-01-08 9:58 pm Can’t believe he managed to get himself caught. Should have posted it anonymously.“we live in a system of laws… you do not obey those laws you are liable for civil and/or criminal litigation”Geez, who let Joe Friday in here. 2005-01-08 10:04 pm Reading the interview, he already spoke to Apple and confessed to everything, so saying the same things in public won’t hurt him. Notice that Apple wants a jury trial: in that event, this guy (or his lawyer) will probably make a big deal out of how good a kid he is, and this sort of public statement may be a part of that.Or he may be an idiot… who knows? 2005-01-08 11:17 pm Think about the kid that was sued by MS for his own web publishing business:MikeRoweSoft.comI hope the spelling is correct…. There was such a huge community backlash towards MS and they dropped the suit and lavished the kid w/gifts…..This could be an interesting gamble…. It might pay off big or shoot himeself in court… There is one difference between the overall setups.1) MS and Apple are precived very differently.That’s what makes this an interesting gamble. 2005-01-08 11:39 pm “This could be an interesting gamble…. It might pay off big or shoot himeself in court… There is one difference between the overall setups.1) MS and Apple are precived very differently. ”“Think about the kid that was sued by MS for his own web publishing business: ”Which has what to do with this case?“1) MS and Apple are precived very differently. ”A useful fact when going for the sympathy plea.It’s still a breach of contract law. 2005-01-08 11:46 pm “Geez, who let Joe Friday in here.”Since some have indicated that they wish to no longer live in a society with laws. May I helpfully suggest they find a patch of unoccupied Earth, and set up their own bit of anarchy there. Let us know how it works out. 2005-01-09 12:08 am If you read the article you’d know that more than likely he was singled out because the ip addresses were the same. It’s hard to be THAT anonymous on the internet… 2005-01-09 12:10 am There’s a difference between making a stupid lawsuit, and then retracting it only to lavish the person with gifts.In the example you listed, the law suit was CLEARLY stupid. For the guy hadn’t done anything illegal. Where as, this guy CLEARLY did something illegal. 2005-01-09 12:14 am This guy has balls. 2005-01-09 2:46 am Is the information hurting Apple? no. I think Apple should pay the man for ALL these free publicity. I personally think it’s a lot of BS. 2005-01-09 3:28 am You know I was lookin at buying an iBook and this just reminded me why I souldn’t. I mean all these big corporations are just the same. Even if they don’t want to be evil they just make the wrong choices.How will this guy suffer because Apple wants to make a stand against bittorrent (hey all the *other* cool companies are doing it), how will it impact his resumé, let alone the legal fees.Apple showing that in the end all that matters is the bottom line : once you sign on the line your bottom’s ours. 2005-01-09 5:16 am I agree with other posts here. This guy is pathetic. He got caught with warez. 2005-01-09 5:47 am > I think Apple should pay the man for ALL these free publicityBull. Are more people all the sudden going to buy Macs because of this moron who decided to pirate? Hell no. 2005-01-09 9:45 am While Apple are legally perfectly within their rights to sue, they really need to take a reality check on this one. Sending a don’t-do-that nastygram would have sufficed.This may not bother Apple fans for whom the company can do no wrong, but it sure bothers me as a potential migrator. Big shame they have to spoil the nice products with the bad attitude.Perhaps, after sufficient publicity has been attained, Apple will probably climb down and accept an apology, maybe ‘after personal intervention from Steve’. Then they can appear to be magnanimous, the personality cult of Steve Jobs is undamaged, and they’ve still achieved their objective of scaring the living daylights out of the defendant and giving anyone else a good few second thoughts before deciding to distribute Apple software on the net. Still leaves a bad taste in the mouth though.Anyway, I thought Apple were meant to ‘Think Different’. Well, here’s different for you: why not have a rogue’s gallery somewhere on apple.com, and settle the case by having the defendant confess on this rogue’s page, apologising profusely and saying what a great company Apple are for letting him off the hook that way, and software piracy is oh so wrong, don’t do it? Apple can simultaneously appear stern (making it very obvious that they take these things seriously by having a page on apple.com all about it) but also benevolent by not suing him into bankruptcy over a relatively minor matter, by ‘thinking different’. The guy would still have a reputation, and indeed, for a lot of people and companies bad exposure on a major website would be far worse than being taken to court. Of course Apple would still need to go after major offenders in the more traditional way lest people think they’re going soft.All the same, it’s long past time someone added onion routing to BitTorrent… 2005-01-09 11:07 am Apples just mad… Cause now those suckas got served…All kidding aside, I think Apple is trying to developean ego so they can feel like they belong in a marketwhere they have never been taken seriously until recently.So they’ve got Ipods, G5 “Super comproOoters”, nice LCD’sand an OS similar to linux that’s dumbed down, locked down,and only used on their own proprietary hardware.Eventually their efforts of trying to be like both Windowsand Linux will become a waste, as I see their biggest roadblocks of success are ones they probably aren’t strongenough to even attempt. 2005-01-09 12:10 pm i had the intention to buy this cheap mac, when it will be for sale. but after apple’s recent and past legal acctions i’m reconsidering it.i would like to have a mac, but i’m not sure that i want to support a company like apple is today. 2005-01-09 1:08 pm Hmmm, I think I’d agree with some of what Spanner saidSeriously, why the hell do the first five posts of any of these things have to seem like stupid, immature rants from idiots trying to take the high moral ground.Well, I have a challenge for you self-righteous people – turn over your computers to the RIAA/MPAA/(insert other organisaiont here), and let’s see what they can dig up.I’m *sure* that you’re all paragons of worldly virtue, that we wouldn’t find a single piece of incriminating software, music or video file that you don’t hold the license for. Yeah right.Look mate, people screw up, we’re human – I know I’ve screwed up several times in my lifetime, and maybe that’s what makes me have some empathy for this guy.Also, I used to respect Apple in the good ol’ days but now they just seem to piss me off. The whole suing people who made themes for MacOS – what the hell?Isn’t the whole point to *nurture* a Apple community, not kill it off?Also, suing people for making MacOS themes – c’mon, I’ve tried a few, and not a single one holds a candle up to the real thing. Besdies, at most they’re just a curiosity, or for the tweakers – for day to day use, they’re practically useless, since they theming engine is often buggy, or unsupported by some software, or the UI is just plain screwy or inconsistent.And leaking a Tiger beta? Oh my god, let’s push for the death penalty. Yeah right.Seriously, Longhorn got leaked, and did you see Microsoft crying out how much it hurt them?No, they’re either smarter than Apple (seemingly likely nowadays), or they’re not as much a pack of vindictive bastards. The day that Microsoft makes Apple look good…Bye,Victor 2005-01-09 2:48 pm Unfortunately we don’t have a choice. No matter which company you decide to buy off, you’ll probably be able to find something in their past or present practices that you disagree with. You’re better off buying a product on the product’s merits. 2005-01-09 3:21 pm It is almost laughable. A number of posters on this subject claim they were considering buying an Apple until this happened. Following their own logic then they must also reconsider buying music and movies. The RIAA and the MPAA are both very aggressively suing people so I guess you don’t want to do business with them because of their attitudes, right?Is Apple legally in the right here? Yes. Is the response on their part particularly bright? Probably not. If anyone seriously believes this is going to actually go to trial then I have a bridge for sake here in town. And to those of you who claim they were considering a Mac before this happened but now aren’t, I doubt that you were particularly serious about it.Anyway, it boils down to the fact that Apple is in the right and this guy is in the wrong. Leave it to the legal system to remedy it. Until such time as Apple actually gets the guy thrown in prison or tries to collect several million dollars from him I am not going to condemn them. Let’s wait and see if the punishment fits the crime.Bill 2005-01-09 3:34 pm but apple macintosh is less open than any of the alternatives. if they want me to use their properitary system, they should play nice.luckily we will have much more commercial software for linux in a few years and linux will be a nice replacement for osx and windows. 2005-01-09 4:06 pm I made the foolish assumption that since I wasn’t a developer, and I had a copy that it would be ok if I shared it with 5 or 6 fellow mac fanatics.In this day and age, him being active on internet forums and IRC? Not a good excuse. 2005-01-09 6:22 pm A number of posters on this subject claim they were considering buying an Apple until this happened. Following their own logic then they must also reconsider buying music and movies. The RIAA and the MPAA are both very aggressively suing people so I guess you don’t want to do business with them because of their attitudes, right?Actually I support local bands, buying cds directly from them. Otherwise I go to live shows, preferably small venues where I know it’s not some bigshot promoter that’s taking the money.Movies are more problematic, but then there’s rarely any movies that are worth watching anyway.Oh did I mention I’m also one of those hippies that buys from Oxfam stores. Just because YOU don’t believe in ethical consuming doesn’t mean there aren’t those who do. 2005-01-09 7:45 pm Isn’t the whole point to *nurture* a Apple community, not kill it off? How is pirating their software nurturing an Apple community? You are assuming that everyone uses pirated software and that those who don’t automatically fall into the category of “self righteous idiots”.There are some who don’t use pirated software and have nothing to fear if someone checks their hard drive. We either pay for the software we use, use free alternatives or just live without whatever program we were thinking of pirating, since if we can’t bother about paying for it, it can’t be that important anyway.You may not like copyright law, but it doesn’t give you an excuse to break it. It’s funny to see these ‘understanding’ people moan about how Apple is acting too heavy handedly by prosecuting warez distributors. If the tables were turned and someone was pirating stuff they had spent hours writing, you’d bet they’d be up in arms and going for blood. That is, if they can write anything worth pirating anyway. 2005-01-09 7:52 pm Actually I support local bands, buying cds directly from them. Otherwise I go to live shows, preferably small venues where I know it’s not some bigshot promoter that’s taking the money.Movies are more problematic, but then there’s rarely any movies that are worth watching anyway.Oh did I mention I’m also one of those hippies that buys from Oxfam stores. Just because YOU don’t believe in ethical consuming doesn’t mean there aren’t those who do.That’s very commendable but it’s non sequitur. How does that excuse distributing illegal copies of software? This is most definitely not ethical consuming. ethical consumption in this case would mean that if you dislike Apple and their practices, go for someone you actually want to support, like the multitude of Linux distros out there.As an aside, I shop at Oxfam too. Where else can you get a fantastic fleece for £3? They were also the first few people to sell fair trade goods. But given my age, most people give me funny looks when they find out I shop at Oxfam 🙂 2005-01-09 8:08 pm Well, I watched the news today and watched the “debate” over the nominee for Attorney General who wrote legal briefs defending government sanctioned torture over the past three years.Welcome to the Age of the New Morals here in America.I knew it was breaking the law, and I know it was stealing and it would probably hurt Apple, yet I love Apple. But I thought they were nice people on the web site, so I thought it was OK. Boy, I feel stupid.And we thought Clinton lowered the bar. 2005-01-09 8:26 pm I doubt that anyone who was “going to buy a Mac” would stop because some guy got caught spreading warez. What a load of garbage. 2005-01-09 8:31 pm (for the guy who wont be buying a Mac now)So I take it you don’t watch movies or listen to audio any more because of the MPAA/RIAA?If protecting your software wasn’t important why is GNU/Linux licensed? Shouldn’t it just be public domain? Oh wait if the Free Software Foundation ever did anything to protect the GPL you think we should all stop using the GNU tools also? 2005-01-09 10:10 pm It’s exactly this sort of self-righteous, holier-than-thou attitude that I was talking about.Look, the guy’s obviously a kid (at least in terms of naivety), he made a screwup, he doesn’t deserve to have his name plastered all over the net, and his life ruined by a lawsuit.Also, sorry but I very much doubt you’re as perfect as you would like to believe – are you honestly telling me that you haven’t ever lent a friend a piece of software, or borrowed software before?If you’re as good as you say you are, how about volunteering to turn your harddisk’s contents over to the MPAA/RIAA/Microsoft, and see what they dig up?Even as a OSS user, I have to concede that it doesn’t cover everything – closed-source stuff is still an unfortunate part of life, and sometimes poeple without thinking, share stuff around. I’m not excusing this sort of behaviour, but it’s not exactly the crime against humanity that Apple would like us to believe.Also, piracy? Leaking beta software – i mean, c’mon – other companies *encourage* this sort of thing – in fact, some people even suggested Microsoft intentionally leaked early copies of Longhorn.Well, for all those defending Apple, how about Microsoft and the Longhorn leaks then? Think about it…idiots…(for those who haven’t realised, the torrents were all over the net, it’s all over edonkey/kazaa now, and a 8 year old kid could get a copy – why didn’t ms clamp down on the torrent seeders, many of whom are still acively seeding?)bye,victor 2005-01-09 10:40 pm “Look, the guy’s obviously a kid (at least in terms of naivety), he made a screwup, he doesn’t deserve to have his name plastered all over the net, and his life ruined by a lawsuit. ”What does he deserve, and more importantly? What message should be sent to others considering the same?“Also, sorry but I very much doubt you’re as perfect as you would like to believe – are you honestly telling me that you haven’t ever lent a friend a piece of software, or borrowed software before? ”The problem with the “You have to be perfect before you can point out my faults” defense, is that there would be no justice in the world. Absolutely none.“I’m not excusing this sort of behaviour, but it’s not exactly the crime against humanity that Apple would like us to believe.”What kind of crime is it?“Also, piracy? Leaking beta software – i mean, c’mon – other companies *encourage* this sort of thing – in fact, some people even suggested Microsoft intentionally leaked early copies of Longhorn. ”Speculation at best. The copyright holder is well within their rights to “leak” whatever they want. However no one else is legally capable of making that decision for them.“Well, for all those defending Apple, how about Microsoft and the Longhorn leaks then? Think about it…idiots… ”See my response above. 2005-01-09 11:08 pm Look, the guy’s obviously a kid (at least in terms of naivety), he made a screwup, he doesn’t deserve to have his name plastered all over the net, and his life ruined by a lawsuit.How old is he? What is he currently doing? He made a bad call, Apple got to him, tough luck. As for his name being plastered over the net, did anyone point a gun to his head and force him to do an interview? No! I’d never heard of him till I saw this interview.Also, sorry but I very much doubt you’re as perfect as you would like to believe – are you honestly telling me that you haven’t ever lent a friend a piece of software, or borrowed software before?If you’re as good as you say you are, how about volunteering to turn your harddisk’s contents over to the MPAA/RIAA/Microsoft, and see what they dig up?No one is perfect, and all of us do break laws. A Stranger above has already answered your post, but to add to that, I *honestly* wouldn’t mind the MPAA/RIAA/Microsoft searching through my hard drive as long as they pay me *well* for the inconvenience. Hey, if they track my IP, kick my door down, search through my belongings, treat me like a criminal, they’d better make it worth my while. The only reason they’d find anything illegal there is because they planted it.Just because you don’t think it’s possible to be warez free doesn’t mean no one is. Just because someone is warez free doesn’t mean they’re perfect either. No one is claiming to be perfect. But that doesn’t mean we can’t point out where wrong is committed. I’m not excusing this sort of behaviour, but it’s not exactly the crime against humanity that Apple would like us to believe.Did Apple claim this was a crime against humanity? Did *anyone* even imply that this is a crime against humanity? Dude, lighten up.It is however, a crime and Apple is well within their rights to seek legal action. Any company is entitled to, even *gasp* Microsoft.No one on these boards are playing holier than thou. On the other hand it’s you who’s being uncivil, rude, and just plain whining about a perceived injustice. 2005-01-09 11:26 pm “What does he deserve, and more importantly? What message should be sent to others considering the same?”A slap on the wrist, like say a $500 fine, and a cease-and-desist notice (which Apple has used fairly successfully before) would be a lot smarter. Why go to all the trouble of a lawsuit – just fine him 500 bucks and say “naughty naughty, don’t do it again” – sends a clear message, and Apple maintains its nice and wholesome image.“is that there would be no justice in the world. Absolutely none.”Actually, if you read my post, you’d see it’s not the whole justice aspect I’m referring to. It’s self-righteous attitude of certain people on this post, where they’rere passing judgement, commenting on how he’s such a “jerk” and how he should hang for his crimes – leave that sort of thing to the courts to decide, there’s no need to rant and rave at him as if you’re some guru on piracy.“What kind of crime is it?”Well, if he signed (as in pen on paper signed) up for the Developer Program, then it’s a breach of contract – I’m fairly sure Apple has a clause for compensation in that case (unless they’re more stupid than I thought). Why go to all the trouble of a lawsuit? WHy not just sit down, and mediate?Also, it was *Apple* who chose to release his name in the first place (by naming his as a defendant) – since his name is already on half the major news sites (theregister, slashdot, osnews etc.), I suppose he felt he had nothing more to lose.Check your facts dude…bye,victor 2005-01-09 11:39 pm Hmmm, just read your last paragraph…dude, I think it’s you that needs to chill. At no point did I insult you, or act in a desultory manner – I’ve merely challenged your views and statements as being overly self-righteous. These sorts of discussions aren’t personal so don’t take it personally – I’m sure you’re a nice guy – and I’m attacking the *argument*, as opposed to the individual.“Did Apple claim this was a crime against humanity? Did *anyone* even imply that this is a crime against humanity?”Compared to Apple’s previous reactions, this is definitely a *big* step up (before, they usually used cease-and-desist notices) Also, the “crimes against humanity” thing is a *idiom* (ie, figure of speech), so I fail to see why you are trying to take it literally.Although I suppose if one were particulalry libellious, one could argue that what this guy has done threatens the entire fabric of society, since it challenges the notion of capitalism and profit, and thus is an attempt to subvert and undermine our society…so yeah, maybe it *is* a crime against humanity *grin*A Stranger “See my response above.”Ummm, sorry, all you’ve said above is that Apple and MS are perceived differently, and something about a sympathy plea.Microsoft is smart – they know that if they drum up developer excitement, and get the public salivating and trying to grab a copy, it’s only going to help them in the long run.Seriously, nobody actually thinks anybody is going to use a pre-release copy of Tiger like this (maybe if it was a bit closer to release). Most of the Mac Fanatics are probably just really excited about Tiger, and want to whet their appetite to get a taste of what’s in store for them when they <emphasis> slog out money to buy a copy from Apple </empahsis>.I really doubt Apple is going to be able to prove that it what damaged in any tangible manner by this action – if anything, one could argue it’s just more free publicity, and helps get the public drumming for tiger. 2005-01-09 11:55 pm No offense taken, just objecting to your blanket statements that anyone who disagrees with your opinion is a “self righteous idiot”. That qualifies as rude and uncivil in most social circles.Seriously, nobody actually thinks anybody is going to use a pre-release copy of Tiger like this (maybe if it was a bit closer to release)This actually is something that has made me wonder for the last few days if Tiger is coming soon. No one knows when it will be released. There have been loads of builds before that were released on the net. Why did Apple choose this one?Perhaps it’s because Tiger is nearing and the build he leaked could have been a release candidate? Pure speculation, but it is peculiar that they would choose to bring him to court.A slap on the wrist, like say a $500 fine, and a cease-and-desist notice (which Apple has used fairly successfully before) would be a lot smarter. Why go to all the trouble of a lawsuit – just fine him 500 bucks and say “naughty naughty, don’t do it again” – sends a clear message, and Apple maintains its nice and wholesome image.Apple can’t just fine him. They aren’t a law enforcement agency of some government body that has the authority to fine just anyone. They have to take him to court, and then it’s up to the judge to determine the fine. Sure, Apple can sue for millions but any sane judge can overturn that and pass a fine that is more sensible.Apple is well within their rights to sue. If MS wanted to, they could sue those who leaked Longhorn. Just because they don’t doesn’t mean it’s alright. 2005-01-10 5:39 am So you are saying you are an ethical consumer because you might choose to not buy from someone who is exercising their right to seek legal remedy from someone who has wronged them? Strange ethics…The guy was wrong, he admitted it and now the system will run its course. I for one will wait until the final outcome before choosing not to buy from Apple.Bill 2005-01-10 5:54 am “Well, I watched the news today and watched the “debate” over the nominee for Attorney General who wrote legal briefs defending government sanctioned torture over the past three years. ”I was going to post an entirely different reply to the above statement, but instead will simply say that if you have never been in a situation where coercion has resulted in information which might have saved your life or your comrades in arms then thank the soldier who has protected your right to make the statement above.This kid broke the law and now it is just a question of what penalty he will have to pay for it. At least he will have the benefit of getting a trial.Bill 2005-01-10 6:27 am But they could settle.Seriously, I do think there is something wrong with not giving second chances. I think what he did was wrong, but let us face it, millions would be convicted if all companies whose software had been pirated actually bothered to find out and prosecuted.Sometimes this suing business smacks of ‘lets make an example out of him’ and that is wrong, no matter how much one spins it. I am sure if Apple’s legal team had contacted him and told him about his deed, and told him that they were pursuing him, he would have accepted to settle. No need to go to court, and no need for someone to get a (potential) criminal record. 2005-01-10 7:57 am I was going to post an entirely different reply to the above statement, but instead will simply say that if you have never been in a situation where coercion has resulted in information which might have saved your life or your comrades in arms then thank the soldier who has protected your right to make the statement above. Well, why not just be a little bit more efficient, and nuke the entire middle east? A few of those killed, are probably terrorists anyway, and we will all have protected our rights!Seriously, torture an innocent, and they will tell anything to stop the torture. Confessing, giving false information, just to make it stop. We have seen it before in the middle ages. Let’s not go back in time. 2005-01-10 8:12 pm So if you run a bakery, and your baked goods are a complete hit you wouldn’t protect your product?You develop a loyal following based on the quality, creativity, and consistency of your product. Larger rival bakeries, with bigger distribution models, see your products and develop products similar to yours to satisfy a market hungry for your unique baked goods, i.e. you make cinnamon cherry turnovers, and they make cherry cinnamon flips. Being known for creative baked goods, you are always pushing the boundaries, so items and methods you create; appear to become the status quo, despite your small market share.Your loyal customers become fans of your products and eagerly anticipate new ones. They even go as far as publishing recipes of your existing and forthcoming products on the net. How much are your “fans” helping your product now? Do you accept that as part of having a fan based community or do you protect your business interest by going after those people that are divulging your product to your competitors? 2005-01-11 12:59 am “Well, why not just be a little bit more efficient, and nuke the entire middle east? A few of those killed, are probably terrorists anyway, and we will all have protected our rights! ”having been in one I can state that War has never been a civilized affair. Until we realize that we will continue to have them. Do what must be done to win it and move on.Last post on the subject, it is time to move on.BillAs for the original meaning of this thread, I would be very surprised to actually see it go to trial. this is just legal posturing on both sides to get into the best bargaining position.