Sun this week at LinuxWorld revealed its Java Desktop 3.0 enterprise Linux desktop environment. Sun has not yet given a laundry list of features, but has indicated that device support and productivity are the foremost attributes of the upgrade.
Sun Reveals Java Desktop 3
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Eugenia Loli
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First you say linux beats solaris 10 beta in mysql test
Which it did, and does.
and then you say solaris 9 was sluggish on x86.
Which it was and is.
Which kind of says you know solaris 10 is better.
Maybe he didn’t bother using Solaris 10 on x86, like just about everyone else. I did, and it’s certainly nowhere near a Linux system especially as a desktop, but also as a server. I thought it was going to blow Linux away performance-wise?
What says it wont become even more optimized for x86 soon?
It really doesn’t matter if it does.
Actually wasn’t talking so much about the corporate desktop as the home desktop. Competing on the corporate desktop is easy. Getting Dell, HP, etc. to pre-load on their PCs will be the challenge, though perhaps less of a challenge since Jobs still won’t port OS X.
That childish remark cost them at least 1 sale involving 6 RHEL licenses and 3 years of support. I’ll gladly take my money to Novell and Sun thank you very much.
But of course Sun have made no childish remarks of any description and have always behaved impeccably.
Besides. Even if you do end up taking your business to Sun you’ll probably end up using Linux (probably Red Hat!) and not Solaris anyway, as on x86 that’s all people are buying from Sun.
Is your board board owned, or controled, by Sunw, or just Sunw zealots?
There was absolutely nothing wrong with my post, I repeat, *absolutely nothing*. I was 100% respectful and truthful. No profanity, no insulting. I was just expressing my opinion like everybody else. I even ended my post by honestly complementing sunw.
Are the moderators of this board such fanatic sunw zealots, that even the slightest criticism of sunw gets your post deleted?
BTW: this is not the first time this has happend.
>>If they [sunw] believe Linux is so poor on the server, why does Sun sell Linux on their servers?<<
I’m sorry, but sunw *has* publically commented that linux is useful as desktop, but not a server. I wouldn’t be surprised if sunw reversed their position, that is sunw’s way.
>>If they are really out to destroy Linux via SCO, why do they develop their JDS first on SuSE Linux? <<
Because sunw is a company that is in some trouble, and for the last two years or so, instead of developing a solid strategy, suwn has been running around like a chicken with it’s head cut off reversing it’s position on various subjects about every other month.
Consider: sunw supports x86, sunw stops supporting x86, sunw start supporting x86 again. Sunw loves Linux, Sunw bashes linux, sunw loves linux again – but only only on the desktop not the server. No, scratch that, Linux is good on the server too. But don’t forget Linux = Java. Sunw bashes msft, then sunw loves msft. For months sunw is 100% behind scoxe, both verbally and financially, then when the sh!t hits the fan it’s “scoxe? . . . scoxe who?” Of course whenever a competitor comes out with a new product – out comes the news announcement: “sunw to open-source solaris” – in case you didn’t know, sunw has been saying that for seven years now.
And if your are going to claim that it’s just sunw’s marketing dept, then you better include mcneally and shwartz in that department.
Ok, here is a good one for you.
Just been playing with Solaris 10.
Started X without any desktop.
Couldn’t get out so switched the power off.
After reboot, JDS (Gnome) displays big error message that Nautilus can’t be started, bla, bla, bla.
What a joke.
One shutdown and the system is hosed.
Never happened to me on Linux with KDE. And rarely on Windows too.
Err, no. If they’re promising compatibility with Active Directory then Microsoft has won and has Sun by the balls simply because they’ll always be following Microsoft, Active Directory and Exchange.
So let me get this straight, you consider interoperability with Microsoft to be a bad thing?
Lack of enterprise management tools is what has really been holding back Linux’s foray into the world of the corporate desktop. Solaris, on the other hand, offers enterprise management and integration through standard protocols like Kerberos and LDAP, while still providing integration into existing Microsoft environments. In this way, you can begin a phased transition away from Windows and Office towards JDS and StarOffice/OO.o while allowing your JDS systems to play nicely with Windows ones and allowing users to continue using their existing accounts and resources.
Sun are also at the mercy of Microsoft’s licensing terms and what Microsoft choose to release should they be stupid enough to take up any offers. I hardly calling that competing, but then, Sun always have been a pretty stupid company when it comes to such things.
Seems much more likely that you lack any kind of enterprise experience and simply don’t understand what their requirements are. Go into any heavily Exchange-dependent environment and offer anything without Exchange compatibility and you’re likely to get the door slammed in your face.
Sun has positioned itself to where it can sell a complete enterprise backend solution for $100/employee/yr while providing complete integration into Windows Active Directory environments and full Exchange compatibility. Given this they can *gasp* compete with Microsoft in the enterprise server space for Windows environments, something Linux has been relatively unable to do considering how cumbersome and immature solutions like Samba 3.0 are compared to SJS Directory Server (and of course, it provides nothing in terms of Exchange compatibility)
Novell is trying to get Linux there and may do so soon, however it’s highly doubtful they will attain SJS’s degree of reliability in integrating with Windows environments for quite some time. Until then, if you have a Windows network and want to transition away from it towars a Unix-based environment, JES is the way to go.
> If they’re promising compatibility with Active Directory then Microsoft has won and has Sun by the balls simply because they’ll always be following Microsoft, Active Directory and Exchange.
David, you never fail to amaze me how idiotic most of your comments are. You serously fell off the clue train and probably landed on your head. Sun is fiercely competing in both messaging and directory space with Microsoft and I bet they’ll be damn if they give any of their market to MS. Read the product sheets for JES Messaging Server, it is targetted primary at the Exchange. Sun has never followed Active Directory or any of the MS federation efforts (Sun heading the Libery Alliance was the reason MS gave up on Passport). The recent dealings between Sun and MS have to do with directory interoperability from both vendors and possibly providing a federation solution accross both Sun JES Directory Server and Active Directory. Technologies from Sun and Microsoft are absolutely orthogonal to each other in all respects, so I do not see it even theoretically how MS could use Sun to its advantage.
“Consider: sunw supports x86, sunw stops supporting x86, sunw start supporting x86 again. Sunw loves Linux, Sunw bashes linux, sunw loves linux again – but only only on the desktop not the server. No, scratch that, Linux is good on the server too. But don’t forget Linux = Java. Sunw bashes msft, then sunw loves msft. For months sunw is 100% behind scoxe, both verbally and financially, then when the sh!t hits the fan it’s “scoxe? . . . scoxe who?” Of course whenever a competitor comes out with a new product – out comes the news announcement: “sunw to open-source solaris” – in case you didn’t know, sunw has been saying that for seven years now.”
Sun didn’t support x86 initially in Solaris 9, but they were forced by their customer base to bring it back. Sun does listen to their customers, and they have no choice but to keep x86 from now on. It even worked out well for them, considing Solaris 10 on Opteron is pretty nifty.
Even while Sun’s verbal support of Linux took a while to settle down, all the while they started out with Cobalt, then moved forward with the LX50 server, expanded to the v60x and v65x servers, and has now taken the gloves off with the v20z and v40z, all of which run Linux as a main OS option. That is a pretty consistent progression up, IMO.
Sun does not like Microsoft in any capacity. They settled with Microsoft to end years of lawsuits. $2 billion is just a touch of justice, this round.
The attempts to link Sun with SCO over the Linux lawsuits are just laugable, because there’s no proof. It’s a conspiracy theory. All public evidence points to Sun licensing IP from SCO for OpenSolaris and Solaris x86.
Sun has said that they have been working on OpenSolaris for five years; they will release it in June, thereabouts; and, the source code is already in the hands of the pilot program members. It is real enough.
Why the ridiculous fashion on OSNews for referring to companies by their stock ticker? Sun is Sun. It’s not sunw, that’s how it’s referred to in a certain specific context which we are nowhere near.
“Why the ridiculous fashion on OSNews for referring to companies by their stock ticker?”
One possibility is it makes people feel important by association. The stock market is important, therefore if I use SUNW instead of Sun, I’m important, too, right?
Or, it could be an arrogant jab at the stock performance of the IT industry, Sun in particular, over the last couple of years.
Or, it could be that people are just plain lazy and can’t take the time to type out “Sun”…
Considering Sun is one of the few companies providing complete interoperability with Active Directory and Exchange (through SJS Directory, Messaging, and Calendar Servers) environments, they seem to be one of the few poised to actually compete with MS in enterprise environments..
I don’t believe the question was “can they?”, but rather “will they?”…
>>The attempts to link Sun with SCO over the Linux lawsuits are just laugable, because there’s no proof.<<
Funny thing, all those years, sunw never needed anything from scoxe. Then all of the sudden, out of nowhere, sunw needs all this scoxe technology. And, wouldn’t you know it, it just happend to occure at the exact same time that msft all-of-the-sudden needed a bunch of scoxe licenses. And, funny thing, both of those incidents happend just after scoxe sued ibm, and needed all of those millions for legal expenses. What extrodenary multiple coincidnces.
But it doesn’t stop there, not even close. Sunw was insistant to keep their purchase from scoxe on the QT. Now isnt’ that funny? Why would a legitimate purchase be such a big secret? And stock warrants? Since when is a legitimate technology purchase come with a boat load of stock warrants?
And how about mcnealy’s gloating about having the only legal version of linux right after the purchase? How about mcnealy going around parroting mcbride about the scoxe/msft bogus “indemnity” issue?
Seems like a little that just an ordinary purchase to me.
>>It’s a conspiracy theory.<<
Maybe so. But such conspiracies really do happen, especially when msft is involved.
>>All public evidence points to Sun licensing IP from SCO for OpenSolaris and Solaris x86.<<
Except for the boatload of evidence I just specified.
I think that solaris will not fare well against linux. Too little too late. Linux is now enterprise ready and getting better all the time. The management at Sun really seems screwed up. The new open source solaris license is restrictive, Sun does not want to share or relinquish control. As a result Sun will not attract the community or mindshare it desires.
To succeed, Sun needs to do an IBM, that is to really get behind linux. It will take a lot more than Scott Mcnealy in a penguin suit. If Sun were to GPL java/solaris/staroffice it would gain the community and mindshare it desires and could remain relevant.
Sun does not offer any products or services that I am interested in, Sun does not have my respect as a company, therefore I am not a Sun customer. Apparently there are many others who feel the same way.
Just a minor correction, Microsofts “single sign-on” was never a federation model. It was an extremely centralised, ‘give all your information to us so that we can sell it back to you’ service. SUN won that round, they proved that business DON’T want to hand over their customer database to Microsoft, simply to get that information sold back at a premium, under the guise of a “single sign-on”.
As for the other nuts; Solaris x86 was NEVER started. YES they offered it, but NO it was never a core part of their server strategy, so in actual fact, this is the FIRST Solaris x86 strategy.
Solaris 9 x86 was to allow people to get their applications running on Solaris x86, Solaris 10 is the big splash. In the next year, you’ll some some awesome technology being released; The SPARC stations will eventually be mothballed in favour of Opteron based machines loaded with Solaris 10 and Janus as to allow existing Linux customers to continue to use the applications they rely on, until such time that the software vendor ports the application across to Solaris natively.
In 18months time, you’ll see a completely different SUN, up to 8 CPUS will be dominated by Opteron, SPARCS will be the 8 way plus, as well as catering for the mission critical telcommunicationss sector, which IIRC the first Niagara will be focused on (since the first version will not be SMP enabled – Rock, which will appear a year later will be).
As for the idiot regarding GPL’ing Java/StarOffice/Solaris; StarOffice is licensed under the LGPL, Solaris will NEVER be licensed under the GPL as it would be detrimental to any third party vendor wishing to write software for that particular platform – just take a look at the hell that is writing drivers for Linux; not only are driver writers having to deal with the lava lamp like unpredictability of the Linux driver API, they’ve also got to make sure that they don’t step on any parts of the kernel that may require them to opensource their code.
SUN, every step of the way, has taken the pragmatic approach. Not only must they keep their customers happy, but their partners as well. SUN just doesn’t exist in a vacuum, and that they don’t have to consider the impact of their licensing changes on their customers and partners.
Licensing, opensourcing etc. are complex issues. SUN is gradually moving through these issues, and making sure they get it right the first time.
Oh, and btw, the parts that SUN have opensourced, are actually valuable. I can’t think of ONE bit of technology IBM has provided which has been worth while.
Their volume management software now plays second fiddle, their JFS is merely there for existing customers, NGPL never actually saw the light of day as a superior one was developed, namely, NPTL by Red Hat coders. Eclipse? Bah, honestly, having used it, its a joke, really it is.
This is out of the box, I can’t create a form, plugins are difficult to install, stability is iffy at best etc. Please, I am a programmer; my job isn’t to debug IBMs shoddy work for them.
Boy, you sound exactly like the Windows guys when Linux first appeared on the scene.
Everybody said Linux didn’t have a snowball’s chance in hell to upstage Windows on the desktop. The same converts are now saying Solaris can’t take on Linux. See how much you guys sound like “Microsoft Shills” execpt you’re now IBM or Redhat or Novell shills.
People were wrong then and people are wrong again – Linux is just the kernel – nothing else. Infact the “kernel” part of Linux is badly designed. The rest of the Linux kernel is drivers – and drivers are really easy to develop/port on other operating systems. Once Solaris gets all the drivers you’ll have no good reason not to look at Solaris. You’ll have all the open source apps: Gnome/kde/office/mozilla/apache/perl/mysql/qt/etc/etc.etc – so exactly what’s missing? You’ll even be able to emerge to your heart’s content once Gentoo starts with Open Solaris.
Linux makes driver developers life hell with all the arbitrary versioning and changes – Solaris is rock solid so driver developers can focus on making stable drivers for Solaris not chasing arbitrary kernel interface changes that Linus and co can cookup in the middle of the night. Don’t believe me?. Try getting your Nvidia driver working on a “linus’ development 2.6.11” series and it doesn’t work. Nvidia’s engineers are frustrated by constant kernel changes.
As for the other nuts; Solaris x86 was NEVER started. YES they offered it, but NO it was never a core part of their server strategy, so in actual fact, this is the FIRST Solaris x86 strategy.
More coverup from a Sun fanboi. The only a reason it wasn’t a “core part of their server strategy” is that they *lost* money all nine years they sold Solaris x86 and Solaris x86 support. This time they’re giving away the OS and selling overpriced x86 hardware hardly anybody’s buying. The funny thing is even when Sun _does_ get an x86 sale, the sale is usually based on Linux and not Solaris! If this continues, then OpenSolaris is just Sun’s exit strategy – along with another wave of layoffs.
The only a reason it wasn’t a “core part of their server strategy” is that they *lost* money all nine years they sold Solaris x86 and Solaris x86 support. This time they’re giving away the OS and selling overpriced x86 hardware hardly anybody’s buying. The funny thing is even when Sun _does_ get an x86 sale, the sale is usually based on Linux and not Solaris! If this continues, then OpenSolaris is just Sun’s exit strategy – along with another wave of layoffs.
First, please don’t parrot David. Sun didn’t really sell x86 boxes till recently. So they really didn’t have an x86 strategy. Sun used to have Solaris x86 like Microsoft used to have Windows for Alpha, Redhat had linux for SPARC. None of those were real strategies for any of the companies.
Sun with Solaris 10 is begining thier real x86 strategy, it’s too premature to assume that it has not yet worked. Sun has been selling linux on x86 boxen because customers wanted them. They also have been selling Solaris 9 on x86. I find it funny that when Sun does sell linux, Linux fanbois think it is a bad thing.
I would like you and david to come back in one year and tell me if Solaris on x86 still isn’t selling.
Sun didn’t really sell x86 boxes till recently. So they really didn’t have an x86 strategy.
The sun fanboi/shill team (kaiwai, raptor, etc.) has a new meme to parrot. In this meme, Sun’s Solaris strategy between 1994 and 2002 just didn’t happen! LOL.
http://www.save-solaris.org/mcnealy.html
Potential Sun customers, remember that this could happen to YOU if you fall for Sun’s sales pitch de jur.
The sun fanboi/shill team (kaiwai, raptor, etc.) has a new meme to parrot. In this meme, Sun’s Solaris strategy between 1994 and 2002 just didn’t happen! LOL.
http://www.save-solaris.org/mcnealy.html
Nowhere in that site does it say that Sun sold and supported x86 boxes like the do today. I have said they had Solaris x86 as a second fiddle, now it is part of the prime strategy.
I see now that you aren’t able to come up with cogent arguments you fallback on name calling and mudslinging, Very mature….. Atleast us Sun advocates have some decency.
From the site you linked.
All these and more show Sun’s comitment to Solaris on x86.
http://www.save-solaris.org/mcnealy-nc04q4-chat.html
Q: Besides the HCL, have you had much luck with 3rd party vendors
providing native support drivers for Solaris 10 x86?
Larry Wake (A): Yes. We’re getting a lot of interest from vendors
that we’d not seen before.
______________________
Q: Have you addressed the issues that earned Solaris the nickname
“Slowaris”?
Mike Shapiro (A): Yes, absolutely. A ton of performance work has
gone into Solaris 10, including large-scale subsystem improvements
(FireEngine TCP/IP, ZFS filesystems), micro-optimizations (many system
calls made faster), and h/w optimizations (taking advantage of the
SSE/SSE2 instruction sets on x86 systems for things like bcopy etc).
All this adds up to big performance wins over previous versions, and
makes Solaris 10 the fastest OS (and 64-bit) on the latest x86
hardware.
Q: Is the predicative self-healing in Solaris 10 available on x86
platform? For example, if one DIMM is going bad on my x86 PC server,
will Solaris 10 x86 safely bypass the defective part?
Mike Shapiro (A): Yes, Predictive Self-Healing will support x86
systems. The Service Manager is common and runs on both x86 and SPARC
today (and in Solaris 10 G/A in January). The x86 Predictive
Self-Healing support for the Fault Manager (for CPUs, memory and I/O)
is scheduled to appear in Solaris 10 Update 1, early next year.
Q: Besides ZFS, are there any other exciting features we may see
in future updates that just didn’t make this 10 release?
Tom Goguen (A): There are a couple of others — The Linux
Applications Environment will be coming in an update and we have an
improved x86 install and boot coming later as well.
Q: Are there differences between the x86 and Sparc
implementations of 10, and if so, what are they?
Adam Leventhal (A): In terms of functionality, there’s little to
no difference between Solaris 10 on x86 and SPARC. We have the
absolute minimum amount of architecture-specific code — the less we
have the less there is to maintain. The architecture-specific code we
have mostly handles machine-specific functions or low-level support.
______________________________________________________________________
Q: I saw a post on x86 laptops running Solaris 10. Am I dreaming
? Solaris will be open source , can we run it on (cheaper) Ultrasparcs
?
Jack O’Brien (A): see supported hardware list for all hardware
including laptops. sun.com/bigadmin/hcl. yes solaris will be open
source for all supported platforms
______________________________________________________________________
Q: The installer in Solaris 9 wasn’t all that great, sometimes it
reminded me of a BSD installer. Will you release a new user friendly
installer for solaris?
Larry Wake (A): There is indeed a new installer underway for
Solaris — it’ll be out in either the first or second Solaris 10
update. Much simpler, and maybe a bit more familiar to those used to
other boot/install technologies.
_______________________________________
I see now that you aren’t able to come up with cogent arguments you fallback on name calling and mudslinging, Very mature….. Atleast us Sun advocates have some decency.
LOL. I post evidence and links. You try and pretend it didn’t happen and post…your vague feeling that Sun really means it this time.
Here are a few of the things Sun advocates have posted in this thread: stupid linux troll, Linux nutcase, complete moron, 5minute linux fanboys, IBM or Redhat or Novell shills, parrot. Heck, one of you guys even triggered Godwin’s Law with a Joseph Goebbels reference.
LOL. I post evidence and links. You try and pretend it didn’t happen and post…your vague feeling that Sun really means it this time.
Please copy paste, specific text from your “evidence and links” that shows Sun had solaris x86 as a primary strategy from 1994 to 2002.
As for the rest of you post. Even the most decent person has a tolerence level. Every Sun/Soalris articles attracts linux shills in doves mudslinging and bashing. Frankly it is getting tiring.
I want you to show me evidence that Sun advocates do the same on linux articles.
that shows Sun had solaris x86 as a primary strategy from 1994 to 2002
That’s a red herring argument you made up, not me – and I’m not biting. It was Sun’s ONE and ONLY x86 strategy for nearly a decade and thus a very good way to judge their actions now. As long as Sun is addicted to high-margin SPARC sales to prop up their weak botttom line, Sun x86 customers are vulnerable to the 2002 strategy. Now, if they would sell off the hardware business…
I want you to show me evidence that Sun advocates do the same on linux articles
LOL. More red herring. Do your own research. You claimed Sun advocates were “mature” and “decent” – I demonstrated that was false.
Solaris will NEVER be licensed under the GPL as it would be detrimental to any third party vendor wishing to write software for that particular platform- just take a look at the hell that is writing drivers for Linux;
Drivers are only a very small part of writing software. There’s no issues with writing commercial software for Linux, it’s perfectly allowed.
they’ve also got to make sure that they don’t step on any parts of the kernel that may require them to opensource their code.
Because a hardware vendor’s competitive advantage relies on having closed-source drivers, right? Actually, nothing could be further from the truth. There is no advantage, from a hardware vendor’s point of view, to having closed-source drivers. They’re not selling software, they’re selling hardware.
In any case, it’s not the hardware vendor’s responsibility if you taint a free kernel with a non-free driver module, it’s the users. NVidia has no problem distributing their proprietary driver, so your entire point is moot.
I see now that you aren’t able to come up with cogent arguments you fallback on name calling and mudslinging, Very mature….. Atleast us Sun advocates have some decency.
You must have missed the parts where I was called names by Sun advocates for daring to suggest that Solaris might not be a Linux-killer and for expressing doubts about the CDDL.
Pot, kettle, black.
Most of the Unix technical forums are now a days populated by Linux fanboys of 2 types:
a)corporate/journo shills for the various Linux players either bashing each other or some competitor or hyping their Gods(IBM currently)
b)Linux script kiddies who wouldn’t know a pointer if it hit them on their head hoping that their perl scripting would elevate them to consultant status
There no point in interacting with them because like any religion no proof to the contrary is sufficient. Most of them don’t understand Unix or IBM history so I fear a section of our industry is about to experience a re-enactment of days we all thought would be far behind us!!
Some interesting sidebar reading when you guys have time:
http://sidart.blogspot.com/2005/01/linux-jihad-against-sun.html