Sun Microsystems’ top software executive criticized Microsoft’s decision to drop older software products that rely on Java software and offered a steep discount on Sun’s own desktop software. Elsewhere, RealNetworks files a $1 billion lawsuit against Microsoft, accusing the software giant of illegally using its Windows monopoly to limit consumer choice in digital media.
Sun: Microsoft Forcing Customers to Upgrade
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
Correct me if i’m wrong but according to sun’s own website the JDE only has 1 year of support, compared to the 5 that Microsoft offers.
I’m not a microsoft fan but I fail to see how Sun’s 1 year offering, instead of microsoft’s 5, is better.
p.s.
Anyone else find it weird that Java Desktop Enviroment isn’tlisted under “operating systems” on sun’s website? Specifically, clicking on “linux” brings up a page on red hat and SuSE. Odd.
What exactly is the current rulling on Java and MS.
I think XP had no java, SP1 added MSJVM and SP1a removed it adding suns JVM?
Can someone clerify this for me?
“I’m not a microsoft fan but I fail to see how Sun’s 1 year offering, instead of microsoft’s 5, is better.”
Don’t forget that Microsoft’s 5 years of support requires you to “Enter your credit card number, followed by the pound sign” if you actually call for support.
Also don’t forget that Microsoft provides zero support for OEM installations. For those you have to call your PC vendor. And those usually only last as long as the warranty.
I mean come on how despret is Sun getting. First they don’t want Microsoft to include their version of Java in the OS and when they remove it, and remove the products that include the MSJVM, Sun bitches. Sun is starting to remind me of that little kid the will whine no matter what happens, because they aren’t getting their way of getting Sun’s JVM on every system in the world. Also I don’t really understand this RealNetworks things. Real Media Player has been included with Windows since Windows 95. First it was a straight install, but then Windows Media came along and AOL bought RealMedia. So now it is included witht he AOL install, but last I checked AOL is pretty much included with every computer that comes out of a warehouse. Also aren’t the install files for AOL included with Windows installs right off the disk?
I think RealMedia has Sun/Java-itis. I just feel this is going to come back and bite them too. Because Microsoft has no obligation to include any 3rd party software with their product, and because RealMedia thought they were sitting high and mighty back in the early days, I bet they tried to screw Microsoft over. And thus was the birth of Windows Media player.
I really find this a distrubing trend that companies are using Laywers to gain capital and influence how software is developed and marketed towords their customers. The Linux community hasn’t seen this and probably won’t see it for a couple years. Well SCO to some extent but they aren’t really demanding Linux is stifling their product from being put into Linux. But just wait till KDE sues Fedora for not put KDE as the default install option instead of Gnome. Or not making it apparent to users that KDE even exists.
If those comments sound weird and you are saying that woudl never happen. That is what is happing to Microsoft right now. RealMedia is included in Windows just not as the default install, so they are sueing to make it the defautl install.
I would like to hear peoples points on this.
I wonder why Sun is trying to challenge Microsoft on the desktop front of all things.
This is a market where all of Microsoft’s competitors have been punished by big Redmond. Other companies like IBM have learned from previous mistakes in challenging MS on this front– they still remember the OS/2 debacle, and clearly won’t be reentering the desktop market anytime soon.
If I were Sun, I would continue to challenge Microsoft on the Server. This is where they’ve actually had success in. Sun has never been known to develop quality software on the desktop, but their server and developer expertise is well known. They should stick with plans of success, or I fear they’re going to become another company going nearly bankrupt if they invest too much in this JDS/challenging Microsoft on the desktop thing.
“Also don’t forget that Microsoft provides zero support for OEM installations. For those you have to call your PC vendor. And those usually only last as long as the warranty.”
I don’t know why you see this as a problem. You know how many tech representivies you would need to support 90% of the desktop market. Of course Microsoft is going to push this to the hardware vendors, because they are more able to judge problems that users are having because they know what hardware they are running and most likely what software that was installed on the system that would interfear.
You need to stop nit-picking and look at this in a macro way of a global community all using the same software but on different environments. Instead of looking at it in your own micro universe where you would like support from Microsoft because you have their software on your computer. If you called Microsoft and was having a problem with getting your graphics card to work. The end user would have to know alot more than many end users know such as what kind of processor is in the comptuer, what kind of graphics card it is. If it is AGP or PCI. Microsoft could never do this with out havinga way to tap into your computer and check out the specs, and if you are not on the net then they couldn’t even do that. This is why vendors like Compaq, Dell, and others have an automatic pull up of what you are running when you call and give them your serial number of your machine.
Come on people stop just spreading FUD and realize that you are not really helping any cause by switching users to Linux before they are ready. I was ready 1 1/2 years ago and I have switched over with one of my machines. How ever my grandmother wouldn’t be ready and if I moved her over to Linux, she would never want to look at a computer ever again.
No, but MS does offer 5 years of software updates and security patches for free; something that sun doesn’t.
That is what I was referring to, not necassarily phone-in support.
5 years of download support? Hmm.. at 50 bucks for the first year and 100 bucks for each of the following years. That would add up to about $450 bucks.
Now winXP is 300 bucks and your get something like 5 years. Sun either has to extend the coverage or drop the price for upgrades.
I am not an MS fan in any way. However it is till slightly tempting. The deal would be nicer if they included Star Office with each release. Does anyone know if Star Office comes with JDS?
Earlier this year the venerable old BBC in London started streaming its World Service in WMP because a huge number of potential listeners REFUSED to use RealRubbish and kept complaining to the Beeb’s management until their policy was changed. Interestingly, most of the complainers bitched about the spyware that is in RealRubbish.
I think Glaser has finally discovered he has a turkey on his hands and is trying to find a profitable escape route.
Yes, star office is included in JDE as part of the enviroment. You can see more about the JDS here http://wwws.sun.com/software/javadesktopsystem/index.html it’s suns product page on the software.
Eugenia also did a review of JDE awhile back, check in the archives here http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=5286
“I don’t know why you see this as a problem. You know how many tech representivies you would need to support 90% of the desktop market.”
I don’t see it as a problem. I was responding the person griping about Sun only offering 1 year of support when Microsoft offers 5. My point was that Microsoft doesn’t offer ANY support unless you pay for it. So the gripe was illegitimate.
I wonder why Sun is trying to challenge Microsoft on the desktop front of all things.
Because the Server market is commoditized, while the deskop market is monopolized. Basically, Sun has a product that can work heads on with MS in select markets, that is bullet list compliant, and does not rely on MS in any way, shape, or form.
It’s also a market that they have inroads on the server side, a market where they have a support infrastructure in place, and a platform with which they even have some experience on in house.
Sun has branding for marketing, infrastructure for support, cash to eat losses early, and a platform with the “top tier” applications that seem to fill the needs of the market.
The desktop market is huge (larger than the server market). It’s monopolized, but here’s a mostly compatible system. So, why not take them on?
If MS keeps crowing about web services, database services, etc, all of that is comoditized, anyone can provided them. So, now, the desktop matters less as long as you can get the applications for it.
Sun has the commodity, yet “monopolized” apps (i.e. Office) functional enough to be usuable for the price they pay for it. Are there specialized Windows only apps that JDS isn’t suitable for? Yup. But there are many that are not, or that are custom developed “in house” for the companies.
Java apps provide a low risk for companies to deploy custom apps upon. If JDS doesn’t work for them, they can always move them back to Windows, or whatever. And there seem to be a lot of Java developers out there.
No other large company is fighting for the desktop. So, now it’s a battle of two versus the inevitability of one.
If Sun succeeds with JDS, then suddenly both server AND desktop are commoditized and MS is hurting big time, as they are not a company that competes well in an environment of open standards. Because we all know that JDS can be swapped for any distro with minor pain. It’s much easier to drop Red Hat into a JDS shop than it is a Windows box. But a Windows box wouldn’t be super hard, as it runs everything JDS does. And when the desktop stops being important, it becomes a matter of taste and value.
The real key of JDS is not to get Linux into companies. The real goal is to get OpenOffice, and commoditize the standard bearing Office Applications.
Nobody complains about MS Office as programs as much as they complain about formats and accessibility.
It doesn’t matter what program I use to edit GIF and JPGs for the web, it’s a matter of taste. But it DOES matter what I use for something like word processing. Crack that nut, make the Office formats open and a commodity, and MS is playing on a level playing field, something they won’t like at all.
“I mean come on how despret is Sun getting. First they don’t want Microsoft to include their version of Java in the OS and when they remove it, and remove the products that include the MSJVM, Sun bitches.”
Why don’t you actually try reading about why Sun wanted Microsoft to remove the JVM from Windows? Then you wouldn’t come across as quite so ignorant.
My point was that Microsoft doesn’t offer ANY support unless you pay for it. So the gripe was illegitimate.
Sure they do. You get patches and service packs for five years, as opposed to kicking out $50 or $100 for Sun’s updates. That seems like a pretty substantial difference.
“Interestingly, most of the complainers bitched about the spyware that is in RealRubbish.”
As well interestingly enough there is Spyware built into WMP that reports to redmond what you are using it for and the name of the file. I do believe that did get shut off with service packs. I do know that Ad-Aware still finds it though. There is less Spyware in Real then with Windows. Did you know there is a key logger in Outlook that is running? I disable the key logging and the WMP first on any of my systems.
My way of looking at sun’s desktop actions is this.
Sun has finaly realized that microsoft is capable of taking its server market from it. They realize that microsoft is using their desktop market share to go after their to take their server market share. Sun’s counter to this is to offer their own desktop system. This is an attempt to destroy microsoft’s desktop leverage. Companies using jds will not be using windows servers. By basically giving jds away they are building a market for their servers.
It is when a country is at war if they are smart they will try to fight their battles in the other guys country.
Once you grasp the concept that the business models of Microsoft, Intel, et al is to make you keep on buying new crudge, then it all makes sense. After all, how can anyone make any money if you only ever bought a computer and OS once every ten years? The problem is, the upgrade cycle has become too fast and people are doing truly stupid things to support this, like paying over $1000 USD for a Pentium 4 Extreme Edition on eBay.
I wish RealNetworks succeed… Hurray…
I see you love propoganda, I guess that is why you are actually getting behind Sun. I mean you have to filter everything you hear. Sun was pissed because everybody was developing off the MSJVM, because it was more user friendly to MS OS’s. People were not focusing the Java efforts to the Sun Servers for client applications. I am not talking about J2EE I am talking about straight client applications. And they were desiged with MS in mind so they didn’t work on Solaris and this is what pissed Sun off. So don’t lecture me abou this.
Let me ask you this question since you think what Sun did was okay. Say everybody starts using Mono does Microsoft then have the right to sue Mono and get it taken off all systems? I see a little hipocrasy brewing in the OSS community in the future.
upgrade to Linux, friends don’t let friends compute with Microsoft…
“Sure they do. You get patches and service packs for five years, as opposed to kicking out $50 or $100 for Sun’s updates. That seems like a pretty substantial difference.”
Sun’s patches are freely available for download
And never mind the fact that Windows XP + Office Pro costs about 12 times as much as Java Desktop
I’d rather trust open source than a corperation to dictate the future of my computing.
“I see you love propoganda, I guess that is why you are actually getting behind Sun. I mean you have to filter everything you hear. Sun was pissed because everybody was developing off the MSJVM”
I see you love not to get the story right… So basically what you are telling me is that Microsoft excecutives lied in court, and in so doing, they falsely accused their own company of introducting incompatibilities into the MS JVM. Yes. That makes sense..
“And they were desiged with MS in mind so they didn’t work on Solaris and this is what pissed Sun off. So don’t lecture me abou this.”
You’re right. They wouldn’t work with Sun, or Linux, or any other platform that ran the JVM, because Microsoft illegally (and in violation of their contract with Sun for bundling the JVM), modified it so that it would be incompatible with other platforms, thus breaking the #1 benefit of Java, which is cross platform ability.
“Say everybody starts using Mono does Microsoft then have the right to sue Mono and get it taken off all systems.”
No. Because the mono people did not sign a legally binding agreement with Microsoft about how they would implement C# on Linux. Microsoft, on the other hand, did sign a legally binding contract with Sun, about how they would implement Java on Windows. They broke that contract.
“So don’t lecture me abou this. ”
Then get it right and read about why Sun actually wanted MS to remove it. And if you don’t want to take Sun’s word for it, read the testimony transcripts from the court proceedings.
“Sun was pissed because everybody was developing off the MSJVM, because it was more user friendly to MS OS’s. … And they were desiged with MS in mind so they didn’t work on Solaris and this is what pissed Sun off. So don’t lecture me abou this.”
Nick,
Anybody may implement a Java virtual machine to specification if they wish. However, they must accept (and follow) a licensing agreement with Sun. Microsoft violated this license (a legally binding contract) and hence was sued by Sun. I’m sure you know the details of the violation. But certainly you would expect a company to protect and enforce its license agreements, especially when violations may harm its business? As a shareholder I would expect nothing less.
John
Sun’s lawsuit forced MS to discontinue these products! Sun’s complaining about something they brought about.
“RealMedia is included in Windows just not as the default install, so they are sueing to make it the defautl install.”
Nick,
With all due respect, I don’t think you’re right here. I am almost positive that Real is not included with Windows, or in any way associated with a Windows install. I have installed Win2k Pro OEM on my home PC one too many times, and I have never seen anything of the sort — Real, AOL, etc. In fact I have NEVER seen any of those items ever included in a Windows installer (and why should they be?).
If I read the news about the lawsuit correctly, Real’s beef is that MS is — as has happened in the past — forcing PC vendors to not allow Real on the systems they sell. If that is an accurate charge, I think they have a valid argument.
I could be wrong here, but that’s how I understand it.
John
>>Sun’s lawsuit forced MS to discontinue these products! Sun’s complaining about something they brought about.<<
There’s a huge difference between “complain” and “criticize”. Do you really think Sun is running around, wringing their hands, screaming, “Ohhh no! Ohh no! What are we going to do with all our Win98 boxes?!” Something tells me this is no skin off Sun’s back.
MS has through September 2004. What’s the rush? Or they could make a (*gasp*!) “legal” JVM and include that. Or they could just rip out the JVM. They have many options. The “woe is me” approach that MS has taken seems like a cover to retire products and move people up to newer versions of their OS.
John
RealOne and DivX are the 19th and 20th most popular downloads from download.com, I probably can’t name more than 5 people tht don’t have quick time installed. Quick time is probably more used than WMP and DivX is probably not far behind. “Real claims to be the No. 1 provider of digital media solutions, with massive distribution of its software and more than 1 million player downloads a week.” I really don’t see where Real has room to complain. People hate its product, period.
RealOne “free” has a rating on Download.com of 36% good 64% bad out of 809 votes, not good.
“MS has through September 2004. What’s the rush? Or they could make a (*gasp*!) “legal” JVM and include that. Or they could just rip out the JVM. They have many options.”
They’ve already ripped out the JVM. Win XP with SP1 does not have the JVM installed.
That’s just fine by me though. Because that way I can be sure that my Java software will be using a JVM I know works when other people use my software. And as far as it being a problem for end users, it’s not really. I just have my software check for an installed JVM when the installer runs, and if it doesn’t exist, my software can automatically download and install the latest JVM from Sun. All the user has to do is click “OK”, when my installer says “The program needs to install the Java runtime environment from Sun Microsystems in order to operate correctly”.
Sun has preload agreements with Dell, and most other major PC vendors anyway. So they don’t need Microsoft. The hardware vendors are installing the JRE with their systems.
I think there’s merit behind the claim… sadly, the same claim can be made about RealMedia, too.
😛
Microsoft is not killing Windows 98 SE if you look on the list of products it specifically says SE is excluded and will still be supported. Microsoft has supported these products for almost 10 yrs, actually 7 yrs to be exact. That is longer than most companies support anything. Linux is not the cure all save all in this case because they EOL for most major Linux distributions is a year to two years. Since Microsoft has started the shared source program and while it was originally for governments has now included private corporationsm, and it will be easier for customers to patch their own system if so needed which is common practice in IT. My companies own pilot with XP and Server 2003 was very successful and we even started deploying some Microsoft technologies in our own infrastructure. V=Believe it or not Microsoft has many advantages and benefits. for productivity we still use a number of Open Source solutions on Windows. For customers who dont want to upgrade office suites, try Open Office. I have had a PDF on my website for integrating Open Source software into Windows for those that are interested it is located here:
http://www.geocities.com/rjdohnert/computer.html
We are partners with Sun and have a Java license, which we use Sun Java on all the major platforms, and the one problem I had with our pilot of JDS was that half our hardware was not supported while it works fine with SuSE Linux 8.2 we had major hardware problems with JDS. Im not trying to shoot down Linux or say that Linux is bad or that Microsoft is a clear winner, Linux has its benefits for somethings but then again so does Windows.
<< And never mind the fact that Windows XP + Office Pro costs about 12 times as much as Java Desktop >>
If you use Open Source software with Windows costs reduce dramatically.
stop yapping so hard if you dont know what you are talking about
oem ms software that comes pre-installed on a computer carries support of 1 to 3 years standard on nearly all manufacturers boxes.
oem software purchased stand alone is a violation ofa ms license agreement (you can still do it and ms doesnt stop it as it allows some to save money) so if you choose to buy it to save money you suffer with no support if needed….take your pick, save money or get support at a higher cost.
retail software from ms does have phone in, chat, newsgroup, huge knowledge base, etc support included in the retail cost…the amount varies by product…last time i checked for instance, office had two free phone incidents if unrelated problems over the life that ms provides support on the product….the product could be 6 yrs old and if ms has not phased out support on the product and you havent used your free phone incidents, you can get free phone support.
phone support is unlimited amount of time and calls until the specific problem is resolved.
buy some retail ms software and try it out. ms answers the phone quickly and rapidly escalates the issue to appropriate technicians that are capable of solving the problem. ms gives the finest support on their retail products of any company in any field i have ever dealt with.
I tried calling Microsoft from my hole… my copy of Microsoft Holes and Hideaways was out of date… I needed updated maps… and they kept telling me “you have to buy the upgrade!” and they were extremely rude to me. At the end of the call they said “if you don’t upgrade, you are going to regret it!”.
Little did I know every Microsoft application has spyware in it… they told the software to call in… and then the bastards found me… and now I don’t even have my hole anymore… all thanks to Microsoft’s crap support and ruthless tyrant upgrade policy.
So let me tell you, I’ve lived in a hole and Microsoft will even begrudge you that if you don’t upgrade.
“buy some retail ms software and try it out. ms answers the phone quickly and rapidly escalates the issue to appropriate technicians that are capable of solving the problem. ms gives the finest support on their retail products of any company in any field i have ever dealt with. ”
I would almost think you worked for Microsoft based on that endorsement.
But anyway, I’ve never had to call Microsoft tech support. In fact, I used to work for an OEM, and supported Microsoft products. So basically, there aren’t a lot of problems with Microsoft products that I can’t solve by myself.
(And when we did run into problems we couldn’t solve ourselves, we had Microsoft Gold level support, which we were paying a pretty penny for. But basically, it ensured us instant access to to a high level tech. We got to skip tier 1 and tier 2 because they knew that we knew what we were doing, so if we couldn’t solve it, their first and second level support guys wouldn’t be able to either.)
Another thing to think about. Community support is more readily available for Sun products than for Microsoft products. In fact, you can get community support right from the community support forums on Sun’s Web site.
Why is this? Because Sun, and other companies simply inspire more brand loyalty than Microsoft does. People using Sun products are more likely to out of their way to help someone else who is new to using Sun products. As far as why Sun and other companies are better at getting brand loyalty, I can’t say for sure. It might just be the underdog syndrome.
<< Another thing to think about. Community support is more readily available for Sun products than for Microsoft products. In fact, you can get community support right from the community support forums on Sun’s Web site. >>
Community supprt is available from Microsofts website uner the newsgroups. And you have NT User Groups in areas which is free to join.
<< Why is this? Because Sun, and other companies simply inspire more brand loyalty than Microsoft does. People using Sun products are more likely to out of their way to help someone else who is new to using Sun products. As far as why Sun and other companies are better at getting brand loyalty, I can’t say for sure. It might just be the underdog syndrome. >>
I disagree with that statement because we have a lot of Microsoft fans and some of them are really fanatical about it and wouldnt drop MS software if you paid them a million dollars. Each platform has its fans and its naysayers, Linux has them, Mac has them and Microsoft has them. Thats how come I ignore most people that come off like that. Im not platform specific, I will use anything and everything I can get my hands on.