Microsoft may not be willing to talk file-system futures, but it is working to back-port its future file-system technology to Windows XP.
WinFS To Be Available on Windows XP
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Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
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It looks like Longhorn is turning into a Windows ME-type of release. Why upgrade when you can download the new features for free?
Stop fiddling around. either you can port it or not port it. either its available or not available. dont make it act like SUN’s solaris on x86 strategy
Apple’s Spotlight (1) is going to be ready this year. GNOME Storage/Sutra (2 and 3) at least have code available. WinFS (4), however, has only been put off, delayed, and downplayed. What is Microsoft doing that’s proving to be so hard?
1. http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/spotlight.html
2. http://www.gnome.org/~seth/storage/
3. http://members.cox.net/sinzui/sutra/
4. http://msdn.microsoft.com/data/winfs/
I must say, I cannot say I didn’t see this one coming.
A modern 64-Bit OS should be able to recognize the filesystems and run the legacy programs of its past, even less-bit versions.
Now, I just wish Microsoft would play fair and work on the clauses and provisions of all of those contracts it has with vendors who WANT to ship competing OSes, but cannot do so–or cannot do so without penalty. (do you hear my, Microsoft?
Let’s see if you continue fearing true competition and innovation, or not. Changing such provisions won’t affect your Copyright and general License granted to users).
–EyeAm
If they are going to back port it to XP, then why can’t they hit their dead line to ship it originally with Longhorn. What will be the point of back porting it after your release Longhorn?
msft does not want to be fair, msft wants to make as much money as possible…
Gnome Storage always seemed like an excellent project, and I was hoping linux users could have a database-like filesystem before windows users did, and a more advanced one that OSX users have.
I haven’t heard any news from it recently. Is it safe to assume that Gnome Storage is dead? That’d really be too bad.
I’ve got no plans to upgrade to Longhorn anytime soon (probably wount be released anytime soon) so it can be fun to try some of the new features of Longhorn to see if they are usefull or not.
http://bitsofnews.com
obviously microsoft has “some code” as well. you don’t realy expect them to publish there winfs sourcecode on cvs, do you?
so what are the gnome guys doing that’s proving to be so hard that they don’t have a release version yet?
why people always have to troll around if there is writen microsoft, linux or mac in the headline?
So Microsoft canceleed WinFS for Longhorn because they couldn’t do it in time, now all of a sudden they are going to put it in XP? This tells me that Longhorn is in serious trouble and they have to do something to keep XP users interested in between cleaning viri, spyware etc from their machines and reformatting and reinstalling. What a kludgy OS XP is.
WinFS is different than the other search tools you mentioned. Microsoft already has a beta version of its indexing search tool for Windows XP out, it’s called “MSN Toolbar Suite”:
http://beta.toolbar.msn.com/
Spotlight et al will place somewhere between MSN Toolbar Suite and WinFS. They have live folders and meta data over Toolbar Suite, as well as indexing search, but they don’t have all the relational database-like features or the level of integration that WinFS has.
Seems like a little competition can heat the stove of innovation.
yes, reasonable people get annoyed about all this trolling so fast, becaus it is sooner or later the death for techsites. there is a well known german techsite (www.heise.de) which is still the number one tech news site in german. there forums where once known as a place where you would get a solution to pretty much any technologic issue imaginable, even if it was an extreamly exotic thing (like connecting to pcs over cb radio).
now their forums are dead. a mudfield of stupid trolling, where every question gets trolling at best, which is real sad, because there is no second site which has gathered so much know how yet, and probably never will. do you realy think stupid trolling is more valuable than resonable discussion? what does that solve?
>> What a kludgy OS XP is.
OS? I thought it was a Control Program. You know – what they used to call a bitty box.
Consider this…..
Since we have never actually “seen” WinFS, Microsoft could just slap any old thing together (like a slightly more advanced version of the indexing thingy already in Windows), and ….
DING!
Instant WinFS .. just add water.
Is it just me or most of you don’t know the difference between Spotlight and WinFS. Or just what WinFS is, basically.
This move was probably the same as with Avalon. Their partners probably want the technology now, instead of waiting. That’s one problem if you say to early what you’re doing
When you consider that BeFS has existed for almost 10 years in one form or another. And that the Hakiu programmers already have a complete rewritten open source version already. You have to wonder why it is taking MS so long to write what is basicly BeFS with full indexing.
My guess is the programmers at MS were not allow to just write a new filesystem but were locked into some of MS’s database and filesystem techologies that MS has patents to and could lock out anyone else. For example I don’t have a complete NTFS available on my BeOS system, but if you gave me a hard drive formatted so, I can still read it.
MS may be trying to locking in both read and write access to thier WinFS.
I never said that they didn’t have code, just that they’ve put off their release a whole lot. If you all don’t like my Spotlight and GNOME Storage examples, how about BFS(1)? There’s an indexed metadata query-based filesystem that works already. There’s even an open-source version (2). It’s not like metadata filesystems haven’t been done before. I guess Microsoft is just too busy with security. *shrug*
1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be_File_System
2. http://www.bug-br.org.br/openbfs/
More advanced how?
how does spotlight not have the same level of integration as WinFS will?
Spotlight will be a freebee system service for all cocoa and carbon apps. how much more integrated can you get?
and why oh why oh why would some one WANT SQL in their file system? All you need is live queries and immediate indexing of new meta data which spotlight provides.
for what i understand,you will be able to do SQL query to search files
and it will have metadata xml based wich can be used to
implement new relations betwen different software using
the same base (xml schema ) i though.
Seems MS is getting a bit nervous and lost the direction.Or has something least expected in the slieve.
the Dominic book is long to read
Why, do you want to have an even more slow fs than ntfs is already ? And please don’t come with ntfs not being slow, it is, just try to put more than a couple of files in a directory and leave indexing on.
the Dominic book is long to read
Well, I personally know the man, we’re working in the same building to this day (for the record, he’s Dominich), has even tought me. He has a unique style, but he knows his job. Those there over the pond with buncha cash could really use somebody like him.
How about we talk about this when M$ actually comes up with something? All this talk about what they “might” or “will probably” do.
How about we talk about what they are doing?
Looks like they want to make sure their upgrade-unwilling customers of XP are as properly locked in as the ones using Longhorn.
No doubt, Microsoft will lock read and write of WinFS down with patents, they don’t even need very broad patents, just something they can use to prohibit read and write access for competitors.
This hardens my view of MS being – well – ugly.
you don’t know that yet. judging them for something you guess they could do but what they didn’t do yet is absolutly stupid.
MS cannot legally lock out linux from interoperating with WinFS because anti-competition laws take precedence over patents. In fact while MS maintains its monopoly it is powerless to exert any of its patents against F/OSS so the whole FUD surrounding their patents is totally bogus and imaginary.
WinFS stands for ‘Windows Future Storage’ and requires NTFS to function. Longhorn’s NTFS is unchanged compared to XP/W2K3 NTFS and contrary to widespread myths, the publicly released parts of the open source Linux NTFS code works reliable read-write:
http://mlf.linux.rulez.org/mlf/ezaz/ntfsresize.html#longhorn
http://www.pikeus.freeserve.co.uk/articles/winfs.html
Mister Bill seems to be a clever Kung Fu master.
Cant deliver on Longhorn so why not use a minimal cost existing testbed aka current xp users to make sure all the lights come on when they flip the switches for the proposed Longhorn.
Throw in an intel 64bit cpu with long awaited 64bit XP Os and you have lift off.All the while Linux and AMD were just kept sitting and waiting in the dark.
Clever indeed.
the most obvius explanation for them publishing an xp version is that they developing it on xp, maybe with some early longhorn subsystems… but of course that explanation offers no grip for stupid trolling and is thus unsatisfying.
I really would suggest to anyone who hates MS to not even talk about it. Why? I feel that you are just being fooled into creating hype for them. It gets people interested in their technologies. I really think if you are going to be interested and want to converse about their technologie’s, that you should really wait until it is officially released. Think of all the kids creating hype for the richest bigs in the world!
If you must please talk about other OS’s.
–Ashley
Now that XP is getting Indigo, Avalon, and WinFS, will there even be a Longhorn?
What is Longhorn? The supported version of XP Reloaded version 2?
“Now that XP is getting Indigo, Avalon, and WinFS, will there even be a Longhorn?”
Yes there will be I think.
“What is Longhorn? The supported version of XP Reloaded version 2?”
I think its safer for them to do it this way.It makes sure when Longhorn is delivered it hits the ground running.Linux is making some viable headway with the negative publicity xp been having concerning spyware etc etc.Cant even discount apple as the mini has opened up alot of interest as well away from windows.
Peace
XP gets those for testing and pre-longhorn development, avalon on xp for example doesn’t include dce which provides hardware acceleration for the whole thing (longhorn will have a different driver model).
the Dominic book is long to read
Well, I personally know the man, we’re working in the same building to this day (for the record, he’s Dominich), has even tought me. He has a unique style, but he knows his job. Those there over the pond with buncha cash could really use somebody like him.
The original poster was referring to Dominic Giampaolo not to Dominich Sandor. It is a custom of OSNews to summon BFS whenever WinFS becomes the topic of discussion.
Knowing Microsoft, you will probably end up with WinXP with WinFS, but some basic feature missing. Oh … like not being able to delete any files …
Zaphod wrote:
“yes, reasonable people get annoyed about all this trolling so fast, becaus it is sooner or later the death for techsites. there is a well known german techsite (www.heise.de) which is still the number one tech news site in german. there forums where once known as a place where you would get a solution to pretty much any technologic issue imaginable, even if it was an extreamly exotic thing (like connecting to pcs over cb radio).
now their forums are dead. a mudfield of stupid trolling, where every question gets trolling at best, which is real sad, because there is no second site which has gathered so much know how yet, and probably never will. do you realy think stupid trolling is more valuable than resonable discussion? what does that solve?”
Yes, mudfield… Zaphod, intelligent and knowledgeable people who can hold a deep fruitful conversation are only a small percentage of the population. It is very sad, but it should be no surprise that more and more ego-driven people who have only superficial information but know a lot of buzzwords, are using computers and inundating the forums with posts.
Many different subject forums on the Internet are dying similarly — this is not an illness that affects only tech sites.
Makes you think if school and university education are really what they are touted to be, if they fail to teach people the basic of social values.
“msft does not want to be fair, msft wants to make as much money as possible…”
Just like any other business.
I see that nobody has mentioned Aero so far. It will certainly not be ported to Windows XP — it’s seems to be tied with the new Longhorn driver model, too. Fully vectorized 3D GUI capabilities are going to be a big selling point for Longhorn — no operating system has this currently (OS X is partially so, even OS X Tiger is going to remain so from what I’ve read). Aero will be a main selling point.
i believe you are mistaken. first, you are talking about a part of avalon, aero was the name of the first internal theme they made. secondly, it will not be fully vector based, (the only attempt at that which i am aware of is waimea, the linux dm) it will however have vectored icons, which is sorely missing in xp.
if there were a single improvement that would make xp more usable, it would be a db filesystem. the current one makes absolutely no sense to most users, and getting rid of it (from their perspective anyways) would reduce alot of the frustration associated with windows.
Wow.
I think this is the most MS neutral comment I’ve ever seen from Mattb.
Wonders never cease.
We have, of course, seen a version of WinFS, although not a version that provides the enterprise integration stuff; just the single-machine. That was shipped out over a year ago at PDC; there were a number of issues to address, not least of which are around the appropriate granularity and APIs for the metadata schema. Getting these schema right (not just the underlying database-like stuff), and getting the enterprise integration and replication story right is going to be crucial to this technology being a) adopted and b) useful in an enterprise scenario. This has relatively little to do with desktop search technology, and is *very* difficult to get right.
As to the backporting decision – well, v. sensible in terms of adoption. And simply taking that backporting decision will delay things on Longhorn, because resources that would have been working on the latter are now going to be working on the former.
As to what Longhorn is “for”? Well, first it rolls all these technologies up into a single, supportable package. Second, you’re likely to see new shell support in Longhorn (whatever becomes of Aero), and thirdly, there’s the new driver model along with the hard(er) real-time support for media applications.
hahahaha, thanks i guess. i find windows frustrating to use, and i gotta use it every day, so i have developed a real personal hatred towards it which may come through on some of my comments in places like this ;-). that being said, i dont have a personal vendetta against microsoft, bill gates, or the city of redmond. i would love windows to get better, it certainly would make my job alot more pleasent.
How do the planned features of WinFS compare with
FAT32?
Reiser 4?
XFS?
JFS?
Ext3?
for desktop/workstation (not server) use?
Mattb wrote:
“i believe you are mistaken. first, you are talking about a part of avalon, aero was the name of the first internal theme they made. secondly, it will not be fully vector based, (the only attempt at that which i am aware of is waimea, the linux dm) it will however have vectored icons, which is sorely missing in xp.”
You are partially right about Aero — I see now that Aero is just one of the themes. Having said “partially”, I read that Avalon under Windows XP will only support the classic look, and not the enhanced one, which is going to be a main selling point, and Aero or its equivalent is certainly not going to be possible in all its glory on Windows XP, but the basic 3D capabilities will be possible under XP — I should have mentioned this.
Regarding Avalon NOT fully vector based: As far as I understand all widgets in Avalon will be vector-based, and the only things that will not be 3D will be the the things that make no sense to be 3D and be better suited as a bitmap. Not only icons — every control is represented by vectors and vector scalable. The SVG-based Waimea doesn’t seem to offer anything beyond Avalon + XAML. I stand by the claim that Avalon is fully vector based by dealing with vector representations of graphics objects at all composition stages, and rasterizing only during the last stage, before the image is displayed on the screen (not considering intermediate rasterization for caching purposes).
it seems you are correct. its very hard to find real information on how objects will be composited (a couple of googles just gave me a bunch of links to blogs quoting ms marketingspeak), i had been under the impression that it would be along the lines of osx, but it seems im wrong.
FAT32
not even remotely comparable.
Reiser 4
reiser 4+extensions will give a very comparable, if not better level of metadata, and would allow for the embedding of a db in the fs. the big problem is to fully leverage reiser, linux would have to drop its filesystem independance.
XFS/JFS
these are both filesystems designed to efficiently hold huge amounts of data. neither are made for desktop requirements, winfs is.
Ext3
ext3 is closer in concept to ntfs. theres some nifty things that ntfs does that ext3 doesnt (like put system files in the middle of the disk to minimize seeks), but ext3 is an all round better fs, imho of course (i have had less issues with it, and file fragmentation doesnt really happen compared to ntfs, which almost has a diabolic joy of writing bytes as far apart as possible.) winfs is more of a “next gen” filesystem, that is metadata rich and has an embedded database, allowing for (FINALLY) the elimination of paths from interfaces aimed at non professionals.
I have got this information from a bunch of pages (yes, most containing marketspeak, unfortunately), but there was one (maybe you did come across it) “Graphical Composition in Avalon”: http://www.ondotnet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2004/03/08/winfs_detail_3.html… where a knowledgeable person from O’Reilly explains things in-depth (see also his comments). Note retained scene graph and vector-level retention — that’s the full 3D capability I’ve been referring to.
Couple of things:
NTFS and BFS are quite similar – IIRC, Dominic has written that two of the largest influences when writing BFS were the design of NTFS and his knowledge of XFS. NTFS and BFS have a pretty the same features, the main difference is that the Tracker / queries in BeOS offer a much better interface to those features.
Second, has anyone read what Microsoft has written about WinFS? It basically describes BFS/Tracker, but if stored queries were the user’s only view of the file system / method of organizing files. They describe being able to drag a file into a query – it would appear to work the same as moving a file, but instead of changing location it would just have new attributes written to it (the attributes defined in the query).
Knowing Microsoft, there would probably be lots of pre-defined stored queries (I think they refer to them as “piles,” but I’m strangely hesitant to use that term) – E.g., a “My Documents” query. Drag a file into it, and instead of having its path become c:..My Documentsfilename, it would have something like category=”Personal Documents” written to its attributes/metadata. If delivered as advertised, it would let you do everything you can do with current filesystems and offer things that you can usually only do in databases (E.g., a file could simultaneously be in two different “folders” at once).
It’s a nice idea, on paper, as it’s basically Be’s ideas taken one step further. My suspicion though is that it will end up being more automagic but less flexible.
lol.. sif you would