“Red Hat, to its credit and to the utter annoyance of some Linux purists, has engaged in a bold experiment: to produce a simple and easy to use desktop. It has tweaked the default KDE and Gnome GUIs so that they work almost exactly alike, by creating a more Red Hat-centric desktop with simplified menus and attractive graphics.” Read the editorial at ExtremeTech.
Opinion: Red Hat’s Heresy
About The Author
Eugenia Loli
Ex-programmer, ex-editor in chief at OSNews.com, now a visual artist/filmmaker.
Follow me on Twitter @EugeniaLoli
Well I don’t share the opinion of that person. If distributions want to get many people off of Windows then they should ship KDE as default which many distributions already understood. These distributions simply make KDE look like Windows 2000 or XP and done. Everyone switching on KDE will figure things out within minutes without reading a Book or something. The interface is quite intuitive, easy to use etc. it is easy to use what’s comming default with KDE because of the cool integration. I personally call myself a Zealot and I don’t like the mixture of RedHat’s null. The problem here is mixing a shitload of Toolkits together, QT, GTk+, TK, KDE, GNOME (speaking of widgets) is not the best solution. Looking at all the background tasks like running dcop, oaf, gconf1, gconf2, esd, artsd and all the memory consumption is not what one should offer to his Customers. Please think about that. I am personally a GNOME user most of the time but we should not fool ourself and face the truth that GNOME is offering nothing. Personally i see KDE as THE desktop and THE leading desktop. GNOME will have a hard time to become nearly as usable as KDE is (I would go one step further and say that this never happens). KDE on the otherhand needs a better MODULARISATION e.g. the way it installs the files by placing all includes into the top include dir (where you count nearly 2000 files at the end) is not optimal. I like how GNOME deals with the includes. I am not sure if KDE is going to solve that issue one day. But I think that this will never happen. A Better file MODULARISATION in KDE and I will switch over within the next hour. There is no future for GNOME because it’s progressing slowly, lost a lot of People that expect much more, lost a lot of developers. Those switched over to use something else or switched over to KDE. These people don’t need a diploma or some foolish comments by GNOME Zealots, they have their own mind, they quickly figure out what they use for the future by installing and comparing things. Now my final sentence. Install KDE3 today and compare yourself.
I have been using “Null” since it got out and I think it is very good.
The branding by a distro is good for indentification of your name and hard work.
I think if linux is to survive, we need a leader for desktop and maybe this is a start, besides Suse does same thing – but no complaints?
As long as it stays open source I think it O’k!
i don’t get your point. Linux is surviving already it has a lot of users and contributors. Please don’t mix GNOME Desktop with Linux in general. If GNOME Desktop fails (which it will) then it doesn’t mean the end of Linux, there is still KDE Desktop that you can use (which is the leading Desktop anyways).
Gnome never going to be as usable as KDE? Are you kidding? Atleast Gnome has done the effort to write a *decent* Human Interface Guide, has added accesibility support down to the API level, and has in general better applications. Btw, Eugenia, I think you once expressed your desire to help with a project that would help make the Linux desktop easier and prettier to use. Maybe you can consider helping with the Gnome Human Interface Guide? It already looks pretty nice.
Personalisation is *alot* easier in Gnome than in KDE, simply because Gnome won’t overwhelm the user with thousands of options that they don’t need, or only need because it ships with a bad default. (havoc’s editorial is *very* interesting in this respect).
I believe that very soon Gnome2 will have a better
usability than KDE3, basing my assumption on these
choices the Gnome Project made.
On a completely different note, you can take screenshots in null by pressing the “Print Screen” key. (if you combine it with Alt, you get a single window). No real need to start The Gimp for it.
Btw, by default Red Hat doesn’t install KDE, or a KDE application. So most newbies won’t end up with the memory consumption associated with running a kde app in the gnome environment.
Actually, I tend to agree with the previous posters that KDE is still much more refined. But you are forgetting the single most important factor, and this is why Gnome will probably win in the long run: The Gnome & GTK libraries are LGPL instead of GPL.
Both Sun, IBM and SGI are starting to ship Linux solutions on a larger scale. The main reason Sun are supporting Gnome is that it is simply out of the question to ship a desktop environment where the user has to buy an additional expensive license in order to develop non-GPL programs (interpreting the Qt dual licensing literally, you cannot even buy a license once you’ve started to develop on GPL-Qt – your application must forever be GPL).
I’m a strong GPL supporter, but the FSF are smart – this is exactly the reason why most system libraries are LGPL.
So, in the end, no matter how good KDE is Gnome will probably have the advantage that you have the same desktop on Linux, SGI, IBM and Sun (supported out-of-the-box), and that’s hard to compete with.
i don’t get your point. Linux is surviving already it has a lot of users and contributors. Please don’t mix KDE Desktop with Linux in general. If KDE Desktop fails (which it will) then it doesn’t mean the end of Linux, there is still GNOME Desktop that you can use (which is the leading Desktop anyways).
sorry, those typos really annoyed.. oh btw, stfu, no one cares, it’ll all turn out in the end, and i won’t be suprised if KDE fails and gnome makes it… anyway, they’re both open sourced, so if one fails IT WON’T FAIL!!!!!!!
I disagree with you here:
a) A lot of GNOME users expecte much with GNOME 2.0 and they got disapointed with what they got offered. Result = they switched to KDE
b) GNOME development is slow really slow while KDE is progressing quickly.
c) On the long run Sun better had bought up Trolltech and made QT LGPL completely so they could easily work on supporting KDE.
d) Not everyone is happy with the HIG. For sure the HIG contains a couple of interesting aspects (yes I have read the HIG) but there are also a shitload of stupid stuff in it.
e) Please explain me the ‘long run’ thing. What long run if you the GNOME community are losing people every day in favout for another System ? Please don’t be blind GNOME in general is no way usable, not integrated. Nothing.
If there wasn’t Ximian who contributed Evolution, or Eazel, who contributed Nautilus or Sun, who contributed A11Y then where would GNOME be today ? They still don’t have a Filemanager, they still don’t have a PIM, they still don’t have a11y. Now compare the stuff with KDE what they were able to do out of their own powers without contribution of Companies. I am not talking about financial gifts from Companies now, I am talking from code itself.
Look at the poorly supported GNOME 2.2 CVS support practically no contribution in it and next month is feature freeze. I still don’t see a featurelist on developer.gnome.org where you can read KDE 3.1 features and KDE 3.2 features already. Comeon you seem to be a GNOME Zealot who want to sell me your rotten mother as a virgin cute.
Having the desktop progress slowly means application developers don’t have to keep chasing a moving target. GNOME plans on keeping binary and source compatibility at least out to the 2.2 series.
As for RedHat’s KDE Gnomification? I think they should have left out KDE entirely. They should just include Qt with a Gnome-like theme to support apps like those The Kompany sells.
If you want KDE? Download it from KDE or use a KDE based distro. Same goes if you are on a KDE based distro and want GNOME.
a) A lot of GNOME users expecte much with GNOME 2.0 and they got disapointed with what they got offered. Result = they switched to KDE
And a lot of GNOME users and no-GNOME users were just thrilled with Gnome2. It’s the first one that actually makes decent decissions when it comes to options, defaults and usability.
b) GNOME development is slow really slow while KDE is progressing quickly.
Hah! Ever read dot.kde.org side by side with http://www.gnomedesktop.org?
c) On the long run Sun better had bought up Trolltech and made QT LGPL completely so they could easily work on supporting KDE.
I disagree.
d) Not everyone is happy with the HIG. For sure the HIG contains a couple of interesting aspects (yes I have read the HIG) but there are also a shitload of stupid stuff in it.
And alot of people are happy with it. Shitload of stupid stuff? Where?
e) Please explain me the ‘long run’ thing. What long run if you the GNOME community are losing people every day in favout for another System ? Please don’t be blind GNOME in general is no way usable, not integrated. Nothing.
We’ll just see with the release of Red Hat 8 won’t we.. Gnome2 is the first desktop that I would dare to install on my dad’s desktop. KDE is just plain horrible.. The K menu sucks, Konqueror sucks, Kmail sucks *big time*, there are no decent applications for it.. Kopete? Hah!
You can easily have a usable and functional desktop with Gnome and no KDE, but the reverse is simply *not* true.
I’ve said before that Redhat shouldn’t include KDE at all, and after this I believe it even more strongly. I certainly don’t think there’s anything wrong with them changing the default looks of Gnome and KDE to make them look the same, however, it’s sure to confuse some users. If the desktop environments look and behave pretty much the same, why would a user want to switch between them? And how many people in their target market, the corporate desktop, will even understand the difference? This is only going to confuse people, and the effort that is going into this would be much better spent making smb shares easier to browse, for example.
> And a lot of GNOME users and no-GNOME users were just
> thrilled with Gnome2. It’s the first one that actually
> makes decent decissions when it comes to options, defaults
> and usability.
how comes i hear more negative comments about GNOME’s removal of configurability or button re-arranging ? Don’t make me come up with Links to these comments you would make yourself look like a Fool afterwards. There are no doubt people that like it but the majority don’t like it, switched to KDE or stayed on GNOME 1.
> Hah! Ever read dot.kde.org side by side with http://www.gnomedesktop.org?
Your point please ?
> And alot of people are happy with it. Shitload of stupid stuff? Where?
In the HIG.
> We’ll just see with the release of Red Hat 8 won’t we..
> Gnome2 is the first desktop that I would dare to install
> on my dad’s desktop.
Well who cares about RedHat anyways ?
> KDE is just plain horrible.. The K menu sucks, Konqueror
> sucks, Kmail sucks *big time*, there are no decent
> applications for it.. Kopete? Hah!
Xchat hah ?
KDE offers a lot of important applications that are not yet available on GNOME 2.
– Gnumeric officially not available for GNOME 2.0
– AbiWord, besides it’s written by some other company it is not available for GNOME 2.0
– Evolution, besides that it is a memoryhog is not available for GNOME 2.0
– Multimedia besides there is nothing that is officially available for GNOME 2.0
Uhm ? What did the user finally gets ?
> You can easily have a usable and functional desktop with
> Gnome and no KDE, but the reverse is simply *not* true.
Let me stick this ”I am an Expert” Button on your head.
I agree completely. But, KDE isn’t installed by default, so I doubt that it will cause alot of confusion. I guess it’s to be somewhat backward compatible. KDE in Red Hat will probably end up like netscape4. It will be included for a long time, but barely anyone will even notice, till it’s gone, and is just going to be a line in the Changelog “Removed KDE from Red Hat”.
Yeah RedHat will remove themselves really soon
ChangeLog Mandrake – removed GNOME because inefficient
ChangeLog SuSE – removed GNOME because inefficient
ChangeLog Conectiva – removed GNOME because inefficient
ChangeLog XYZ – removed GNOME because inefficient
I’m sorry but I find Gnome 2 stable, fast, and it’s just so damn simple and elegant. I mean KDE bloats your eyes with all this garbage, and it doesn’t even look as complete. Sure KDE has integrated Konqueror as a file manager and a web browser, I kinda like it. But that integration is only skin deep.
Somebody made the comment that Gnome doesn’t have a file manager, my response to that is HAVE YOU EVER USED GNOME?
In my own opinion I believe that most people have never used Gnome 2, there experience stops with 1.4. I had troubles myself upgrading to Gnome2 on my RH 7.3 box and likewise with my old Suse distro. But if you try the new betas (mandrake/redhat) I’m sure you’ll be more than happy with Gnome2.
My own belief is that after the next round of Distro’s are released, more people will be exposed to Gnome2. Then the upper hand that KDE has at the moment will be lost. No longer will people be runner the slow Gnome 1.4 that they had been.
I hate posting and then realising you made some grammatical errors.
I wouldn’t reply if I haven’t tried both Desktops and belive that I tried exessively. Otherwise I wouldn’t be in the position to argue the way I do.
Please explain ‘with all the garbage’ what do you want to tell us ?
Garbage as in installs tons of stuff that no one wants ? On GNOME people use GARNOME to compile from source which installs a lot of Garbage too so where is the deal ?
Uhm guys, can’t you spot a troll if he’s dancing cha-cha in front of you?
@Spark: Never mind, James already stopped replying
The KDE and GNOME people are converging in one place! Battle ensues!
I personally agree with the editorialist. I like Linux. I use it everyday. But when I install it on my machine, the first thing I do is spend countless amounts of time configuring it and getting rid of all the “geeky” tools that I’ll never use, so I can have a simple, friendly, easy-to-use desktop. My desktop now is just how I want it. It doesn’t have a bunch of widgets and hacks and applets running. It is just set up so I can access my e-mail, browse the web, burn some CDs and listen to music. Nothing more, nothing less. I could get the same functionality if I were using Windows, only I’d have to deal with all the crappiness that comes with using windows – and I’ll never go down that road again.
I’ll probably buy Red Hat’s product. I might even consider Lindows as their 2.0 release looks great and, from what I understand, they have a pretty easy way to update software. And that’s exactly what I want.
One of the most striking differences between the two desktops is that the support for Gnome comes so strongly from the United States (Red Hat, Ximian, United Linux…) while the support for KDE is highly international. At this point KDE supports a desktop is something like 80 languages including those with highly specialized needs (right to left, top to bottom).
I wonder if Gnome and KDE aren’t going to end up seperating much more deeply than they are today making Red Hat'[s job of combining them even more difficult.
You know, all of this stuff about look and feel of the GUI is only the tip of the iceberg. In order for Red Hat, Lycoris, ELX, or any other distro to find it’s way to my school’s desktops; they have to do one simple thing: integrate with my Windows-based domain.
We simply have too many apps and servers running under an NT 4.0 domain to trash it all. I think I can speak for a great many others in my position. If I could join a machine to an NT 4.0 domain, have users log in and be authenticated complete with on the fly mapping of their home directories, things would be cool.
I have no doubt that this will happen someday, but it hasn’t yet. I can’t have my students saving on the local machines, and because most of these computers are in a lab setting, it is imperative that they have their own space automatically mapped to their accounts.
Our internet filter requires the use of domain integration for user identification. The system isn’t perfect, but it works well enough.
This interface discussion, while useful, is not the biggest detractor for me.
Chuck Hunnefield
Technology Coordinator
Linden Hall School for Girls
On GNOME people use GARNOME to compile from source which installs a lot of Garbage too so where is the deal ?
I got a good laugh from this one. Thanks for coming out bud, but Garnome compiles necessary binaries and libraries so GNOME CAN ACTUALLY RUN. By garbage in KDE I’m talking about the clutter of the menus and toolbars and even contextual menus (if you want to call them that).
Stop trolling stick and put some thought behind your posts. Yes I was pretty vague when I said KDE is cluttered full of garbage, but atleast I it was not as stupid as the comment about Garnome compiling garbage.
This commentary is utterly like race baiting. Nobody is trying to seperate out the users from the “lusers” here. The “Linux purists” are not pissed that Redhat is trying to make a system easy for newbies. What people are pissed about is that RedHat is taking KDE and removing references to the KDE project. Its legal, but its unethical. People like the author of this article are trying to misdirect the discussion, making it seem as if people are angry about “n00bs” coming onto the Linux platform when in reality the point of tension is very different.
@jbett: Sorry, I thought you were refering to the ‘install everything syndrome’ here. That’s why i mentioned GARNOME in this context since it installs nearly all GNOME and NON-GNOME application that exists only to cheat the enduser about a complete GNOME Desktop (which is not true).
Somebody made the comment that Gnome doesn’t have a file manager, my response to that is HAVE YOU EVER USED GNOME?
Nautilus is terrible, might look better than Konqueror but functionality wise it is just terrible.
But that integration is only skin deep
You must be crazy, which version of KDE do you use? With Konqueror I just right click on a .tar.gz file and select extract here. I can view just about any file right in Konqueror. try that with Nautilus.
I do like the way the fact that Gnome is not as similar as Windows and has some cool drag and drop capability. But KDE is definately better. That may change when GTK2 apps appear though.
@Andrew: I have to fully agree to you except that GTK (or specially GNOME) development is going slow. I fear that because of this many people will switch over to something else. Look people are usually ‘I want it today’ kind of People they may not like to wait until GNOME reaches the same usability as KDE 3.x has today. The day GNOME 2.2 comes out (which probably has limited new features and probably look the same than GNOME 2.0) that the KDE people are starting to work on KDE 3.2
RedHat can do this out of the box (8.0 certainly can, and I’m quite sure 7.3 can as wll) – there’s even a screen to configure it during install (there’s a SMB tab on the authentication setup screen near the end of the install process)
[…] that the support for Gnome comes so strongly from the United States (Red Hat, Ximian, United Linux…) […]
Have I missed something? As far as I know all four members of UnitedLinux (Caldera, Connectiva, SuSe & Turbolinux) use KDE as default desktop.
RedHat is the only namefull Distro I know of that uses Gnome as default. But on the otherside, who uses RedHat ?
It seems that almost all new app’s are written to be compatible with Red Hat first then others.
What difference does the desktop make as long as it does what you need it to?
You can set it the way you like anyway, and what about the other Desktops that are not included, some of those are pretty good and very fast.
Maybe we don’t like it, but linux is attracting the money mongers!
TROUBLE! AHEAD!! ???
@MAH: Please explain how you make an App compatible to REDHAT ? To say, this is the most disgusting sentence that I have read so far. Are you somehow limited ?
@MAH: Please explain how you make an App compatible to REDHAT
RED HAT RULES That is all there is too it!
@MAH: Well your reply sounds wise and correct to me… No seriously every halfway person with brain avoid using Redhat in general.
I haven’t tried redhats beta yet, but i have tried gnome 2, and it is great. If redhat have managed to improve on that then i will be impresses (and from the screenshots it looks like they have) – KDE 3 is terrible by comparison, not only does it take ages simply to load on my computer (which runs gnome 2 happily), it is also painfully slow once running – sure it looks better than kde 2.x but it’s much slower. Of course the worst thing with kde is that it’s pretty much all or nothing, if you don’t run kde then you won’t want to run kde apps – not because of the different toolkit but because of the time it takes to start the crapload of kde services (… and then shut them down when you realise it wasn’t worth the effort) couple that with the fact that most kde apps have superior gnome/gtk equivalents and it’s not hard to imagine kde dying a sad death.
Cheers kde people – you’ll be noted in history for driving the adoption of linux on the desktop before redhat decided that linux on the desktop was worthwhile – and for that we owe you big time.
Anonymous: You made me laugh for at elast the time I needed to read your shit. It’s easy to pull back the ball to KDE beeing slow etc. where most of the issues you explained are in no way KDE related. They are related to the lack of support of gcc and binutils. But hey maybe you are interested that with the current development of KDE apps start much quicker. Konqueror takes now around 3-4 seconds to come up.
> with the fact that most kde apps have superior gnome/gtk equivalents…
which ones ?
That is the main reason I moved back to GNOME. KDE bloat, both memory and hard disk requirements. With GNOME 2.0, it has dramatically improved. I no longer double click on nautilus, cook a four course meal and come back to find that it has just finished loading.
@Maththew, Well KDE 3.1 including Koffice is only 220 Mb in size where GNOME right now to make it usable with all it’s 3rd party stuff is double the size:
You need to compile everything and have a system set up:
– Latex (50 Mb)
– Gnome 2 (130 Mb)
– Gnome 1 (100 Mb) <– for evolution 1
– Mozilla (25 Mb)
– OpenJade+DocBook (10 Mb)
315 – 320 Mb. On my System GNOME eats around 350 Mb with all the other stuff to make it usable (striped libraries and binaries)
Right now you lost all argumentation because:
– It eats more Space on the Harddisk
– It is more bloated because of 2 different Toolkits
Not to mention all the other bloat running in the background such as gconfd, bonobo-activation, esd etc.
Um… buddy buddy buddy
Okay, you just compared the size of GNOME2+1 to KDE 3.1. Now you did nothing absolutely wrong for the moment, but you must remember that old GNOME apps are not gonna stay that way forever, they will be advancing as well as GNOME, right now Evolution requires gtk 1, but in two months you might not need GNOME 1 for anything major, and may I ask why you installed the full fledge Gnome 1 window manager when all you need are the GNOME 1 libraries?
@jbett: 2months ? Dude Evolution GNOME 2 port wasn’t even thought about. Not yet started and won’t start in the near future. You can expect a working version 2nd or 3rd Quarter next year. Oh by the way don’t ask me where I know this. Simply take the fact that I know it.
First of all, a disclaimer: I’m a happy GNOME 2 user and, yes, GNOME 2 is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much better than GNOME 1! I can actually run GNOME 2 on my 603ev-based PowerMac without waiting forever for things happening. Even Nautilus is much more snappier
Personally? If I’d want a Windows clone, I’d stick with Windows. If I’d want a MacOS X clone, I’d stick with MacOS X.
If people thinks that cloning Windows will be good in the long run, think again – if it was true, Apple were done a Windows copycat on MacOS X, not maintaining its brand desktop. Yes, I don’t believe that all those desktop-oriented-KDE-based-and-looking-like-Windows Linux distros will succeed in the long run.
What makes me wary of KDE is that, for me, it looks that the ultimate goal of the KDE desktop is to make a perfect clone of Windows. Sorry, guys, no way. (Oh yes, C++ sux, Qt is ugly, but this is not the problem)
RedHat is in the right way, trying to give a personality to Windows desktops. It’s not perfect, it’s not ready, I’d love that somebody do a menu panel for KDE (GNOME menu panel definitely rocks), and I dream on the day Gkrellm is totally integrated to GNOME panel.
But it’s a start. Kudos to RedHat.
@Cesar: “Integrated” is the right word of yours. Nothing inside Gnome really integrates. Get some basic tools first then come back and show me the advantages of GNOME. You people don’t even have a native GNOME 2 webbrowser nor do you have a native GNOME 2 emailer. So what usage do you have with that pile of shit besides some crappy EYECANDY ?
Stof: Looking at all the background tasks like running dcop, oaf, gconf1, gconf2, esd, artsd and all the memory consumption is not what one should offer to his Customers.
Look at yourself. You are complaining about something that only Linux geeks will complain, and can fix in the first place. Besides, KDE/QT, TK etc. won’t be loaded by default if you just go down the recommended road in Red Hat, in which most of 8.0 customers would.
Anonymous: Both Sun, IBM and SGI are starting to ship Linux solutions on a larger scale. The main reason Sun are supporting Gnome is that it is simply out of the question to ship a desktop environment where the user has to buy an additional expensive license in order to develop non-GPL programs
Actually, there is an article where Sun is regreting not buying off Troll Tech and stick with KDE, instead of going down the GNOME/ GTK+ road. Sun didn’t actually care much about the license of the projects, it thought GNOME’s technical roadmap is much better in the long term than KDE’s.
Besides: does it matter? Sun isn’t a huge player in the desktop market, and would probably never will.
Anonymous: (interpreting the Qt dual licensing literally, you cannot even buy a license once you’ve started to develop on GPL-Qt – your application must forever be GPL).
Actually, you can license your application in any GPL-compatible license. And you can buy QT when you want your application to no longer be GPL, and use it – although TrollTech doesn’t condone this. Troll Tech doesn’t want people to start developing their apps with GPLed QT and before shipping, buy TrollTech’s license+IDE.
But anyway, with the speed and the direction of where Free Desktop standards are going, it probably won’t matter whether the application is written in GTK+ or Qt, it would matter whether it has a UI similar to KDE, or one similar to GNOME. I’m betting on the prior more than the latter.
Also, if GTK+ finally manages to make something better technically than QT, I’m sure KDE developers would jump over and port KDE to GTK+.
Stoff: a) A lot of GNOME users expecte much with GNOME 2.0 and they got disapointed with what they got offered. Result = they switched to KDE
Proof? Just any single proof this happen? Yes, there would always be a small group of users, in isolated cases, that would switch over, but I’m also expecting the it to happen vice versa.
Stoff: b) GNOME development is slow really slow while KDE is progressing quickly.
Okay. Go to GNOME’s CVS (any branch, I suggest checking out libraries or Nautilus), with your fave CVS viewer. Take note of what is happening. A week later, see what changed.
There is absolutely no proof behind this stupid claim.
Stoff: d) Not everyone is happy with the HIG. For sure the HIG contains a couple of interesting aspects (yes I have read the HIG) but there are also a shitload of stupid stuff in it.
Feel something is stupid? File in a BugZilla report or email the author, not come here and bitch about it. the HIG is the personal views of a bunch of people, certainly not the last version. Besides, what parts are “stupid”, anyway?
Stoff: They still don’t have a Filemanager, they still don’t have a PIM, they still don’t have a11y.
Wrong. Pre-Nautilus, they had GMC, and also a PIM (can’t remember it’s name). And on your point, KDE wouldn’t exist without companies like Mandrake and SuSE around. A lot of the code in KDE are made by Mandrake and SuSE employees, and just because Mandrake nor SuSE employees group around one project and when it is ready only submit it to KDE, doesn’t mean KDE doesn’t depend on company contributions. KDE wouldn’t be anywhere near where it is now without these companies.
James: Hah! Ever read dot.kde.org side by side with http://www.gnomedesktop.org?
A very bad comparison. Both KDE-related news isn’t reported on the dot because its managers aren’t that free to do so.
KDE is just plain horrible.. The K menu sucks, Konqueror sucks, Kmail sucks *big time*, there are no decent applications for it.. Kopete? Hah!
Uhmmmm, you are as good as Stoff. No reasoning behind your dislike. I can say GNOME’s menu sucks, Nautilus sucks, Evolution sucks *big time* (This I can say honestly), and there are no *decent* applications for it… GAIM? Hah!
Stoff: Well who cares about RedHat anyways ?
The article.
James: But, KDE isn’t installed by default, so I doubt that it will cause alot of confusion. I guess it’s to be somewhat backward compatible
Yeah right… Most of the apps on apps.kde.com WON’T work. Because Red Hat rename the schedules, among other things.
Stof: On GNOME people use GARNOME to compile from source which installs a lot of Garbage too so where is the deal ?
GARNOME even installs KDE. If you want standard issue GNOME, get cvsgnome, or try one of the new distros like Mandrkae 9.0 or RH 8.0.
jbolden1517: One of the most striking differences between the two desktops is that the support for Gnome comes so strongly from the United States (Red Hat, Ximian, United Linux…)
Interesting to note that UL doesn’t support either desktop, and most UL members uses KDE. Plus, most UL member’s headquarters aren’t based in the US.
Stof: The day GNOME 2.2 comes out (which probably has limited new features and probably look the same than GNOME 2.0) that the KDE people are starting to work on KDE 3.2
Actually, from the roadmap, GNOME 2.2 would be be release a little later than KDE 3.1, plus or minus 1-2 weeks.
Martin: RedHat is the only namefull Distro I know of that uses Gnome as default. But on the otherside, who uses RedHat ?
With their business plan (something KDE distros lack), I can say “a lot more”. They are aggressively targeting the corporate market (no no, niches in the corporate market, not the white collar work force). Their only competition is Ximian and Sun, whom I wouldn’t really fear either which.
Stof: @MAH: Please explain how you make an App compatible to REDHAT ? To say, this is the most disgusting sentence that I have read so far. Are you somehow limited ?
Most commercial apps come out for Red Hat (with RPMs for it) first, and if they support other distros (which most, like Yahoo! don’t), it would make packages for them later.
Anonymous: not only does it take ages simply to load on my computer (which runs gnome 2 happily), it is also painfully slow once running […]
What? You are using a 120MHz Pentium MX with 16 MB of RAM?
Stof: – Gnome 1 (100 Mb) <– for evolution 1
Which is kinda idiotic, you only need to install need packages, not the entire GNOME 1 installation.
Stof: 2months ? Dude Evolution GNOME 2 port wasn’t even thought about.
Evolution 1.3 development had already started, and the end product would be 1.4, which uses GTK+.
AMEN !!
Ryhan first of all you replied the stuff from various people by half reading the replies. You answer in a total out of context manner where at the end I asked myself if the guy (You) ever read the stuff he is replying to.
Please before replying at least READ and UNDERSTAND the stuff. You can’t fool me with things like Evolution 2 port has been started where 1.2 port hasn’t finished yet. Not everyone that you reply to is a stupid person. I personally know GNOME perfectly to talk about it. The same goes for KDE. If you have no true stuff to reply then simply shut the fuck up. And here my reply to your garbage.
> > Stoff: a) A lot of GNOME users expecte much with GNOME
> > 2.0 and they got disapointed with what they got offered.
> > Result = they switched to KDE
> Proof? Just any single proof this happen? Yes, there would
> always be a small group of users, in isolated cases, what
> would switch over, but I’m also expecting the it to happen
> vice versa.
Now what ? You want a single proof and then with the same sentence you agree that people go off ?
> > Stoff: b) GNOME development is slow really slow while
> > KDE is progressing quickly.
> Okay. Go to GNOME’s CVS (any branch, I suggest checking
> out libraries or Nautilus), with your fave CVS viewer.
> Take note of what is happening. A week later, see what
> changed.
Yes thats what I did. Go yourself and make a KDE CVS checkout. The activity you see in 1-2 Days is what GNOME CVS will see in 2 Months. Dude simply belive me that I did all these investigations already. Otherwise I wouldn’t come up with that. Nautilus CVS HEAD doesn’t look different to the gnome-2-0 branch. The Nautilus 2.0.7 release was made out of the HEAD branch. You can read it up in the ChangeLog.
> > Stoff: d) Not everyone is happy with the HIG. For sure
> > the HIG contains a couple of interesting aspects (yes I
> > have read the HIG) but there are also a shitload of
> > stupid stuff in it.
> Feel something is stupid? File in a BugZilla report or
> email the author, not come here and bitch about it. the
> HIG is the personal views of a bunch of people, certainly
> not the last version. Besides, what parts are “stupid”,
> anyway?
Problems with the HIG can be discussed on [email protected] and the HIG is already Signed stuff and won’t change much. So what will it result if I go and piss clueless people like Sun employees up that already fucked up CDE ?
> Stoff: They still don’t have a Filemanager, they still
> don’t have a PIM, they still don’t have a11y.
> Wrong. Pre-Nautilus, they had GMC, and also a PIM (can’t
> remember it’s name).
I am talking for GNOME 2 dude. GMC definately was no competition to Konqueror, nor that Nautilus is a competitor.
> > Stoff: Well who cares about RedHat anyways ?
> The article.
We all know that Redhat is the Microsoft in the Linux community. Their methodes are the same.
> > Stof: The day GNOME 2.2 comes out (which probably has
> > limited new features and probably look the same than
> > GNOME 2.0) that the KDE people are starting to work on
> > KDE 3.2
> Actually, from the roadmap, GNOME 2.2 would be be release
> a little later than KDE 3.1, plus or minus 1-2 weeks.
How is that related to the stuff GNOME 2.2 will have ?
> > Stof: – Gnome 1 (100 Mb) <– for evolution 1
> Which is kinda idiotic, you only need to install need
> packages, not the entire GNOME 1 installation.
Which at the final end is 100 Mb including Evolution headerfiles etc.
> > Stof: 2months ? Dude Evolution GNOME 2 port wasn’t even
> > thought about.
> Evolution 1.3 development had already started, and the end
> product would be 1.4, which uses GTK+.
Bullshit. If I know something for 100% then this.
Sad that the GNOME users start comming up with fucking lies only to make their dark and lost situation look a bit brighter. I don’t fear good conversation. I don’t fear making mistakes or beeing mistaken with argumentations but listening to so much crap really makes me sick.
Supporting openstandards like XML, XSL, XUL, CORBA etc etc.
Sure, KDE has its own component system, called kparts, but I don’t know many who are willing to re-invent the wheel so that they get the warm and fuzzies when using KDE.
As for the differing parts, GNOME 2.0 is mature. It has been stripped back, literately, is being written from the ground up with the necessary UI requirements that should have been there when it was first designed.
As for Office tools, OpenOffice. Evolution and its port to gtk2, is it necessary? honestly, is there a feature in Evolution that is lacking, and only gtk2 can address it?
As for KDE maturity, please inform me were I can get a fully functional version of KDE to run on freeBSD? most ports I come across lack huge amounts of functionality which would be found on the main Linux port. GNOME, however, is not seen as a “Linux only” desktop, it is a UNIX/BSD desktop, that can run on a varienty of platforms.
As for stof, get a life and actually read up on gtk2 vs. qt, then come back. The whole world doesn’t just revolve around KDE, there are other things that contribute, or should I take away all the components that KDE relies on, that were created by the gnome foundation, such as libxml and libxsl, which KDE relies on.
I have SuSE 8.0, will probably get 8.1, but I would like to build Standard Gnome2. Garnome usually fails for me, but from what I have read in the posts it installs a lot of stuff not needed anyway.
I would like a pointer to info on building Gnome2 for a distro like SuSE and if possible, where does one read up on the structure, config etc of Gnome2.
Any links to resources you can provide would be appreciated.
Ah, I can see that Speed has been replaced!! We’ve got a new troll in here!!!!
Stof plays it role really perfectly! He is even german, like every good KDE troll! I wonder if this is some kind of cloned species.
I just hope he won’t fake me again. It kinda worries me that he’s using the same provider as I do.
I haven’t checked these packages (so they may suck or they may be great) but check out:
ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/suse/i386/supplementary/GNOME2/update_for_8…
To pretty much everyone else: If you use KDE, a lot of these people are going to say you suck. If you use GNOME, ditto. If you use Red Hat, Mandrake, SuSE, or Linux From Scratch, odds are plenty of people are going to step up to tell you you suck. The real question is: Do you use the DE or distro that will make you popular among your peers, or do you use the DE or distro you feel most productive with? Use what feels right for you, let other people do the same. Or, just go back to hurling baseless insults and all those wonderful “facts” and “statistics” places like OSNews and Slashdot are so famous for. In the end it doesn’t matter either way. That KDE loser you’re screaming at is STILL going to be a KDE loser in the morning, right? Or GNOME … or Red Hat … or that utter fool who takes only two lumps in his tea instead of three …
Thanks Andrew,
I also get sick about the fact that everything, yes everything in the LInux world end with a flame like my blabla is better because bla bla etc..
I am using WindowMaker because i like it..i have GNOME2 and
KDE3 installed so i also use Evolution, Mozilla, Quanta, klipper(copy paste) etc. etc. And you know what i really do not care what you think about that..i yesterday red an article
about a it man (Windows) that stated: Linux is nice at home but is not ready to run in a mission critical envoirment.
WHAT!??!?? ..they use Windows..??
Now that worries me…such monkey are dissicion (i hope i spelled that right) makers..
Bas
ready to
Stof: Now what ? You want a single proof and then with the same sentence you agree that people go off ?
No, it is just that I couldn’t find NOT ONE statistic that agree with you. Not one survey. Nothing. Nadda. I can say Indonesia doesn’t exist, and it would be as much true as your statment.
Stof: Yes thats what I did. Go yourself and make a KDE CVS checkout. The activity you see in 1-2 Days is what GNOME CVS will see in 2 Months.
I happen to check both. Right now, both are equally as busy. Some weeks, GNOME developers does more, other weeks KDE does more. I have been seeing this pattern since KDE 3 came out.
Now, ask yourself a question, if CVS activity is so low, how the heck those that many bug fixes, and feature patches end up in the CVS? Magic? Yeah, right.
Stof: Problems with the HIG can be discussed on [email protected] and the HIG is already Signed stuff and won’t change much. So what will it result if I go and piss clueless people like Sun employees up that already fucked up CDE ?
Actually, it does change stuff. They revise their HIG. Besides, you haven’t told anyone of us why GNOME’s HIG is crap. The only thing I don’t like about it is the part about icons on the panel, ala shelf-like effect.
Stof: I am talking for GNOME 2 dude. GMC definately was no competition to Konqueror, nor that Nautilus is a competitor.
Funny, I rather browse my computer in nautilus 2 than in Konqueror 3.0. Konqueror 3.1 is nice, but really you are bashing one project because of personal preferences. Besides, if Nautilus didn’t exist, you bet my ass that they would port GMC to GNOME 2. And, obviously, make it better.
Stof: We all know that Redhat is the Microsoft in the Linux community. Their methodes are the same.
Oh really? How is that so? Red Hat made a choice whether to use GNOME or KDE as their default, they use the prior. They choosed to make their own look (I don’t see you bashing other distros for doing the same). The only thing they did wrong was create incompatiblities with KDE, which they apologized. How does that make them Microsoft?
And your comment doesn’t rebutt my statement, you just made another totally different statment.
Stof: How is that related to the stuff GNOME 2.2 will have ?
Please, read what statements I’m replying to.
Stof: Which at the final end is 100 Mb including Evolution headerfiles etc.
I don’t know about you, but Evolution here + dependancies don’t take as much space as that. And counting dependancies, 1.1.1 takes less space.
Stof: Bullshit. If I know something for 100% then this.
I stand corrected on the 1.3. I misunderstood some GNOME developers, I just double check, they said 1.3 branch would start as soon Evolution 1.2 is released.
Matthew Gardiner: Supporting openstandards like XML, XSL, XUL, CORBA etc etc.
Sure, KDE has its own component system, called kparts, but I don’t know many who are willing to re-invent the wheel so that they get the warm and fuzzies when using KDE.
KDE uses XML, and XSL. No GNOME app uses XUL, which is supported and made by Mozilla, not GNOME, plus also not an open standard, just some cool thing Mozilla made. KDE choosed to use KParts because it wanted something simple for a specified task: CORBA can fill that task, but it brings in a lot of excess features KDE doesn’t want/need.
GNOME manage to take CORBA, make it into Bonobo and use all its features to the extend it can. (I like CORBA BTW, but don’t diss off KParts because it is different. It does its job perfectly.)
Matthew Gardiner: As for Office tools, OpenOffice.
Bullshit. OpenOffice.org, the current one in the CVS, don’t need any GTK+ nor GNOME related libraries. It runs the same way on KDE as it does on GNOME. Yeah, Ximian is working on a fork of OpenOffice.org which uses GTK+ widgets, but it haven’t came out yet.
Matthew Gardiner: Evolution and its port to gtk2, is it necessary? honestly, is there a feature in Evolution that is lacking, and only gtk2 can address it?
Evolution is lacking a lot of features other mail clients have, but porting to GTK+ won’t get those features. However, it would make it run faster on GNOME 2, and blend in more.
Matthew Gardiner: As for KDE maturity, please inform me were I can get a fully functional version of KDE to run on freeBSD? most ports I come across lack huge amounts of functionality which would be found on the main Linux port.
You should blame the maintainers of the KDE version of FreeBSD, not KDE itself. THERE IS NO Linux-specific code in KDE. Besides, using KDE on Linux emulation won’t hit your performance very hard, unless each milisecond is an eternity for you.
Matthew Gardiner: GNOME, however, is not seen as a “Linux only” desktop, it is a UNIX/BSD desktop, that can run on a varienty of platforms.
Since you brought FreeBSD up, tell me one version since 4.6 came with a fully functional GNOME installation? Just like KDE, BTW, GNOME has no Linux- or GNU-specific code.
linux_baby: Ah, I can see that Speed has been replaced!! We’ve got a new troll in here!!!!
Kinda late though. Mail orders of trolls is not what it used to be.
Rob: Do you use the DE or distro that will make you popular among your peers, or do you use the DE or distro you feel most productive with?
What I’m productive with. Right now I’m using GNOME 2.0 whenever I use Linux until KDE 3.1 comes out. But what’s the fun in a forum if you can’t bash each other, heh? :-).
But I find myself using Window Maker a lot when I just want to zip in and zip out (normally to retrieve a bookmark).
> Bullshit. OpenOffice.org, the current one in the CVS,
> don’t need any GTK+ nor GNOME related libraries. It runs
> the same way on KDE as it does on GNOME.
Right!
> Yeah, Ximian is working on a fork of OpenOffice.org which
> uses GTK+ widgets, but it haven’t came out yet.
Impossible, dream on dude. The whole Api, Structures, etc.
are completely different. Re-writing OpenOffice to have it
use GTK+ widgetset is an insane task that will never happen.
We are talking about some more Megabytes of sourcecode. I
now see that you are no programmer otherwise you wouldn’t
come up with such a shit.
Hey George/Stof, if you’re gonna troll using different nicks, at least do it right:
Don’t use those start lines with @name_being_trolled, try to change your style. It makes it easy to distinguish you.
Try to bash different topics. Trolling for you should be fun, and sticking to an ideology will just make you vulnerable (always trolling about the same topics makes you use always the same points).
Try to troll smartly, the “Hummm, I think you’re stupid” to linux_baby in this news:
http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=1748&offset=30&rows=45
And for God’s sake, don’t use some phrases said by people as popular as Eugenia, it makes very clear that you aren’t even putting effort on keeping up with the discussion. Try to make your own phrases, legendary trolls in, ie, slashdot, are remembered through history thru original (and many times stupid) phrases like “BSD is dead”.
Nothing more, I hope you have fun. I certainly do
Stof: Impossible, dream on dude. The whole Api, Structures, etc.
are completely different. Re-writing OpenOffice to have it
use GTK+ widgetset is an insane task that will never happen.
We are talking about some more Megabytes of sourcecode. I
now see that you are no programmer otherwise you wouldn’t
come up with such a shit.
Never said a rewrite nor a complete port to GTK+. What Ximian is doing is making a GTK+ user interface, following GNOME’s HIG, over OpenOffice.org, in the same fashion as Galeon is to Mozilla.
Doing such a port of OpenOffice.org would be stupid for Ximian, which plans to release this as soon as it releases its Ximian GNOME 2.0 (expected something after GNOME 2.2 comes out). But nontheless, not impossible (check out the Mac OS X port). Hard, but not impossible.
> Well I don’t share the opinion of that person. If
> distributions want to get many people off of Windows then
> they should ship KDE as default which many distributions
> already understood. These distributions simply make KDE
> look like Windows 2000 or XP and done.
Everytime someone tries, the “purists” start screaming
that Linux shouldn’t look so much like XP. Look at the
shellacking Lycoris gets for trying to do that very thing.
@Rayan, Look at your previous reply
Quote: “Yeah, Ximian is working on a fork of OpenOffice.org which uses GTK+ widgets…”
Then one reply later you wrote
Quote: ” Never said a rewrite nor a complete port to GTK+. What Ximian is doing is making a GTK+ user interface, following GNOME’s HIG, over OpenOffice.org, in the same fashion as Galeon is to Mozilla.”
Now please can you at least decide what you write ? You can’t simply make a GTK+ user interface for OpenOffice because there is no embeddable backend for OpenOffice. The only way to do this correctly is to remove all OpenOffice related Widgetset cruft from the code and replace every line with GTK+ stuff.
Galeon and Mozilla are different, Mozilla offers the GtkEmbedMozilla backend to interact like an interface with Galeon. The API for this interface has been planned and invented by Mozilla (not necessarily for Galeon) without that interface Galeon would look like a pile of shit today.
Please investigate into stuff before replying to me. You write a lot of offensive replies which tries to make me look bad. You haven’t came up with any proofs of your brabbeling so far.
Everything that I have written here can be reviewed or read on Mailinglists, Gnome.org etc.
Proof 1: Evolution is not ported to Gnome 2 yet and has not been started. Check out the evolution cvs HEAD tag or even better go on GimpNet #evolution, talk to fejj or lewing or ettore. You are not the first one asked for that.
Proof 2: OpenOffice Gtk+ port, Contact Miguel de Icaza and ask him. Please go and ask him. Or ask anyone. But hey as long as there is no physical port to GTK+ then why at all do we talk about it as long as it’s not there, there is no need to discuss about assumptions.
Proof 3: Unhappy users for GNOME 2 including those that don’t like the HIG. Go to the GNOME Mailinglist archives grab the last 3 Months of backuped mbox files and grep inside it. Get Gnome-Devel@, Desktop-Devel@ and Usability@ also look on Slashdot.org. You can also read a lot of anti-Gnome related things here on OSNEWS.
> THERE IS NO Linux-specific code in KDE
Then I may point you to KSysGuard and the kfile kio service (kdelibs, kdebase) for just two places where you can find Linux specific code. If you look you will also find other platform specific code. For many things there is no common solution which works on all platforms. So there is need for platform specific code if you want to run your software on multiple platforms as it is the case with KDE.
Rayan: I don’t plan to discuss about separate tools with you. I am speaking generally about the bad situation of GNOME there are no TOOLS available for it _NOW_. People and users want TOOLS _NOW_. KDE has these TOOLS. GNOME has no Multimedia related material NOW and people want to have these things NOW. For sure GNOME will become better one day (no doubt) but I don’t see the point waiting 3-4 Years for GNOME to become nearly as usable as KDE 3.1 is today. GNOME hasn’t come over with a correct and nice FileSelectionBox for GNOME. They still work on one in ‘libegg’ but no one knows when it will make into GNOME 2.2. The general UI stuff simply sucks for GNOME. Look at YELP, GCONF-TOOL, GNOME-TERMINAL all these 3 so called GNOME applications use the ‘GTKWindow’ widget to store their stuff inside instead of ‘GNOMEApplicationWindow’ look at their toolbars, you can’t enable draghandles, change icon or non-icon view to them etc. Even the code in GNOME CVS HEAD look the same not yet changed. HIG guidelines (hey it’s also written by havoc penington’) requires that GNOME applications should be written using GNOME components, now please tell me why Gnome-Terminal (written by havoc pennington) doesn’t follow the own rules ? It’s a sign of bad maintainance, bad code, bad plannings, bad integration. Or is it lack of time ?
Yes, I downloaded all those rpm’s. From the terminal I used
– rpm -i –force *.rpm.
– I then added gnome2 to KDM.
– when I load gnome2. It sort of loads but no names are in the menus, you cannot even logout. It is just severly broken.
Is there another way to install the RPM’s. I don’t like the idea of opening each RPM from kpackage, having to enter the SU command 60 times, getting dependancy messages etc.
I wonder why the SuSE rpm’s are so messed up or am I messing things up some how?
I would also like to see what the standard Gnome2 is like.
Stof: Universal troll
Distinguishing features:
1. Always spotted trolling on dot.kde.org, osnews.com, gnomedesktop.org, slashdot. Can troll on more than one site at any moment so watch out. He often starts the troll be lying to be of the opposite camp and just wants to point out a few problems.
2. Resorts to name-bashing and insults as a first line of defence when his arguments are rebutted.
3. If that fails he switches his identity and tries the same trick. [ He’s only decieving himself since the shame is withing him and not in the minds of the forum-readers ]
4. Makes sweeping false statements with a lot of confidence to try and convince others of his authority and know-how in the field [ He thinks he’s very smart but doesn’t know that everyone else is laughing their guts out at him 😉 ]
5. He will be stupid enough to reply to this comment unless he’s too ashamed after the reading the previous point.
Man, this is getting really annoying, You suckers can’t even proof the opposite so where is the deal ? You pro-Gnomers fear that I may be right with all my statements (which I am). Get a real life and jack-off sometimes to calm down. The Gnome situation is hopelessly lost.
Instead trying to nail me down get your ass moving and show me that I am wrong so I can change my mind. As long you can’t show the opposite I don’t see that I need to change my opinion. Gnome has nothing to offer and will not offer anything anytime soon.
Face the fact that KDE is far ahead _TODAY_ which GNOME is not.
“look at their toolbars, you can’t enable draghandles, change icon or non-icon view to them etc.”
This works with yelp, gnome-terminal doesn’t even have (or need) a toolbar, same for gconf-editor (that’s probably what you meant with gconf-tool) IIRC.
“HIG guidelines (hey it’s also written by havoc penington’)”
Not at all written by Havoc Pennington.
http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/1.0/credit.html#active-…
“requires that GNOME applications should be written using GNOME components”
No, it doesn’t.
Just to point out some of his obvious flaws.
Stof, You could argue forever about which is best, but please understand that this is a personal preference. KDE prefered by some, and Gnome is prefered by others. Deal with it, Live with it. There is nothing you can do about it.
Your terrible spelling and bad grammar along with your unnecessary use of bad language and personal insults suggest to me that you are aprox. 14 years old?
I suggest that this thread be renamed to “Stof vs. the world”
Andrew, I’ve never had any problems with rpm’s and SuSE. Can you say exactly what is happening?
We all have had a chance to see KDE 3 in action in various distros. Haven’t had that chance in as many at least with Gnome 2. And it will be interesting to see the actual final release of what Redhat is doing. For God’s sake, why don’t we wait and see what happens? As things stand now, I prefer KDE to Gnome, but that means nothing. In the world of Linux, it is important what Redhat does. If they are able to move closer to a standardization of a Linux desktop, then I say great!
wadering where my posts always go
It is sad that the GNOME users start coming up with illicitly sexual lies, only to make their dark and lost situation look a bit brighter.
I’m trying to correct you spelling and grammar to a point that your post makes sense. I’ll be with you in a minute.
I don’t fear good conversation. I don’t fear making mistakes or beeing mistaken with argumentations but listening to so much crap really makes me sick.
Stof, I usually never stink-talk an individual, either in person or on the web. I generally abide by my policy of only saying negative stuff about Microsoft (mainly because Bill Gates wears a toupee and lies about doing so). However, your poor spelling and grammar, and your rancorous attitude towards everyone on the list, make your posts and opinions unintelligible and easily dismissible. Your arguments, while personal and largely irrelevant, would be far better recieved if you drop the sardonic attitude and acknowledge your nescience. Express a preference, but leave it at that if you don’t have any worthy technical details to share.
I’m trying to correct you spelling and grammar to a point that your post makes sense. I’ll be with you in a minute.
It looks like I missed some.
I’ ve used both KDE and Gnome for many years. Most of the time I used Gnome because it looked and worked much better for me than KDE. That changed after KDE 3.0 came out and i realized that it was a great imporvement over from the other versions. The only problem that i found was that it was much slower in loading application on my system compared to gnome 1.4. But besides that it had great integration and was much easier to use when installing files. Now, Gnome 2 is really good but is still missing many features that KDE has. By integrating both environment Redhat tried to unify these Guis so they are much more useable for home users not pros who like everything done their way. Now, while all of you are argueing which desktop environment is the best people in “Microsoft” are sitting on their a**es and making fun of you and how Linux is going to fail. If you don’t like the desktop, fine don’t use it, change to another GUI. That is the whole beauty behind this. If you plan to spend so much energy on criticizing the desktops, than go join or create a team that would integrate the best features of both to make it more useable. Understand that unless linux community gains unity among companies, developers, and its supporters it will have tough time competing with companies like microsoft now and in the future.
When I use rpm -i –force *.rpm everything seems to go fine. I add Gnome2 to KDM and then logout out of KDE.
When I log into Gnome2 i get:
– a background for the desktop that looks pretty messed up.
– I get the menu bar at the top with the Gnome foot. Nothing else though.
– Clicking on the foot brings up the menu with the icons that would go in the menu but no options, by that I mean no text.
– I can take a guess and try load one of the options. it loads the app, but again, the widegets seems to be largely missing and no text.
It’s really strange. Maybe I need to download the rpms again.
By the way the packages provided by SuSE are in the ‘experimental’ directory. I have loaded the Keramik theme from the same directory without problems though.
I wish I could just build Gnome2 form source though. Garnome always fails, and I don’t the skill to build Gnome2 by myself. I wish there was a step by step instructions I could download or read somewhere on building Gnome2 from source.
I anyone can help, I would appreciate it.
By the way previously I have used Gnome2 on the Mandrake 9 RC3. I have been very disappointed with it though and feel that SuSE 8 is superior and the new version 8.1 promises to be a big improvement as well.
Stof the troll: > We all know that Redhat is the Microsoft in the Linux community. Their methodes are the same.
If you’re a troll and don’t have nothing to say, what do you say? “RedHat is Microsoft of Linux”. It’s a popular urban legend, and every brain-dead troll repeats this as a mantra to appear that he’s saying something intelligent.
The GPL avoids new Microsofts. You hate the way things are, you can do as you like. Thanks RMS!
rajan r: > Actually, there is an article where Sun is regreting not buying off Troll Tech
The Register’s Andrew Orlowski came back recently with this story again. Anyway he’s becoming a Slashdot-like troll.
ignore my previopus post, just notciced i was in the wrong article =), they both have the same ppl, so it is easy.
My question is why do we have to make GNU/Linux look like windows? Its not, thats like tring to make a VW beetle look like a porsche! It doesnt work like that. I like what Rh have done, agreed that acknowledgment should be give to gnome/KDE developers. A unified simplier enviroment make sense. (note I use mandrake with ximian gnome, not redhat)
Stof: Now please can you at least decide what you write ? You can’t simply make a GTK+ user interface for OpenOffice because there is no embeddable backend for OpenOffice. The only way to do this correctly is to remove all OpenOffice related Widgetset cruft from the code and replace every line with GTK+ stuff.
I’m tired of you. here’s the source. http://www.linuxandmain.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=… “There’s a lot that we can do with OpenOffice to make it easier to use,” Nat says as the marker comes within inches of the ceiling. “It can be integrated far more closely with GNOME’s themes and widgets, become more a part of the desktop.” What I meant was GTK+ widgets for the UI
Stof: Galeon and Mozilla are different, Mozilla offers the GtkEmbedMozilla backend to interact like an interface with Galeon.[…]
From what I could gather off, this is exactly what Ximian is trying to do. Though it seems Ximian is very tight lip about it. Trust me, it would be not as easy as it sounds, otherwise Ximian would have already released it.
Please investigate into stuff before replying to me.
Why not YOU try investigating stuff before replying to me.
Stof: Proof 1: Evolution is not ported to Gnome 2 yet and has not been started. Check out the evolution cvs HEAD tag or even better go on GimpNet #evolution, talk to fejj or lewing or ettore.
Accroading to Lewing, ti started but nobody is working on it.
Stof: Proof 2: OpenOffice Gtk+ port
Never implied that there was a port, and if you think I said or implied there was a port, I’m sorry to mislead you.
Stof: Proof 3: Unhappy users for GNOME 2 including those that don’t like the HIG. Go to the GNOME Mailinglist archives grab the last 3 Months of backuped mbox files and grep inside it.
You obviously never seen kde-usablity mailing list have you? Or one of those anti-KDE articles started by Dennis E. Powell? The difference between GNOME and KDE is that vocal critism happen all the time. But you still haven’t provide any proof that your numbers is correct, nor given me ANY proof.
Besides, at least in the mailing list, most people gave constructive criticm, not “Gnome sucks, KDE rulez. 50% of GNOME users move to KDE, don’t ask me how I know this”.
Stof: Rayan: I don’t plan to discuss about separate tools with you. I am speaking generally about the bad situation of GNOME there are no TOOLS available for it _NOW_.
When KDE 2 came out, was there ANY tools? GNOME HAD the tools. Did KDE fad out? NO! Yeah, applications aren’t here because just like the KDE1-KDE2 transition, GNOME1-GNOME2 transition is HUGE.
Besides, if we were talking about TOOLS, and debating the technical and political SUPERIORITY of either desktop, why not just DUMP KDE and GNOME and go to Windows?
Stof: For sure GNOME will become better one day (no doubt) but I don’t see the point waiting 3-4 Years for GNOME to become nearly as usable as KDE 3.1 is today.
If you are talking about FEATURES, maybe yes, you are right. But if you are talking about usablity, I’m putting my bets on 1 years, after Ximian’s release and beta and stable builds of software ports come out.
Stof: GNOME hasn’t come over with a correct and nice FileSelectionBox for GNOME.
And they can’t fix it? They are planning to fix it with GTK+2.2 and GNOME 2.2, you can go to GNOME-usablity and suggest how it would be like. But as of now, I’m betting GNOME’s file dialog would be similar to that of Mac OS X.
Stof: HIG guidelines (hey it’s also written by havoc penington’) requires that GNOME applications should be written using GNOME components, now please tell me why Gnome-Terminal (written by havoc pennington) doesn’t follow the own rules ?
IIRC, Havoc pennington finished the port of GNOME-terminal before writing the HIG. Besides, the GNOME terminal is the closest follower of the HIG, and the HIG BTW is very new, don’t expect apps to follow it too quickly.
Stof: It’s a sign of bad maintainance, bad code, bad plannings, bad integration. Or is it lack of time ?
Actually, it is the lack of time. GNOME has much less developers, counting full time ones, than KDE ever had. As for bad integration, it is very subjective, as there is not much GNOME 2 applications using Bonobo to have integration.
And on your claims about GNOME terminal, the so call gconf-tool, and yelp, read Spark’s post.
Stof: You suckers can’t even proof the opposite so where is the deal ?
You can’t prove not even half of your statements in your first post under this nick here.
Just say I claim that Japan never existed. Would it make it true just because you can’t prove me wrong?
Iconoclast I’m trying to correct you spelling and grammar…
You mean your? I hate spelling/grammar posts 🙂
Cesar Cardoso: The Register’s Andrew Orlowski came back recently with this story again. Anyway he’s becoming a Slashdot-like troll.
No, no, that was the recent one (I hate Orlowski’s guts, BTW). It was a few weeks after Sun announce it was supporting GNOME, IIRC after GNOME 1.4. It got a sweet deal to buy TrollTech to use it in Solaris and in Java (sounds stupid, no?…. i mean the Java one).
Re: your problem with fonts -2 things to try
1.
do ls – /etc/pango
see if there is a file called pango-modules, if not do
pango-query-modules>>/etc/pango-modules
2. adjust your font size to something big like 10000 by
gconftool-2 -s –type=string /desktop/gnome/interface/font_name Sans, 12000
Thanks! I’ll try.
I ve used Linux for specifically Java development. I am however, very interested in Linux Desktop. My mind was changed like car’s gear-box, Gnome or Kde. I do not tend to criticize which one is negative.
I ve sometimes imagined I play a role as a clerk, very dump about OS. Or I am as my poor Mumy, like to enjoy normal tasks on my PC using Linux( but truly they re using win98 connected to my RH Linux)What happen?
it is probably that they expect to do the tasks very conviniently. Like (quite similar to windows
-click internect connection button —–linux ok———
-click web-browser ——-linux ok———but they only need oneBrowser
– when they like a email addr and just click on webBrowser a letter,——–linux ok———
-use word to write a resume——linux ok——–
and so on…
with me personally, to save time for my mainstream duty I used to use:
– email/calendar/weather/contact : Evolution ( I asked by myself why Ximian does not integrated News Client in there)
– WebBrowser: mozilla (setup the same email at evolution but to sending only)–this is convinient for me when I click straight away on webBrowser, I got a ready pop-up to write email.
– Editor: gEdit ( this is a thing I am kinda vague why are 3 available on kde: editor/editor advanced/sorry i forgot the last one). If use of no GUI, vim is my favourite (even in GUI, vim seem to be more powerful)
– fileManager: Konquorer ( i like the way kde done as I drag a folder to another fileManager, they ask: copy/move/link)
– News Client: Pan/ Knodes long before
– Multimedia: xmms, xine
-graphic: Gqview, gphoto to quick create a photos album,
GIMP
– word/spreadsheet processing…: so5.2, will be 6.0 next moths
– dictionary: kdict
-ftp client: gFTP
-chat: xchat
and alot more are default by myself
———–
Your options are absolutely different. Please put your favorite default on here, or where else popular. At least Business companies, or Open Org. can see what users/customers expect and like. No thing is extremely complete in the real life. My pesonal idea ( i emphasize the word personal) is that I like the way redhat integrates both in one (I dont like redhat, and not their fan) Users are just curiously to try/switch from kde<-> gnome at first, but later they dont. And as my Mum and my sister, mean one is enough. About the issue of mimic/or copy the Business Modelling from Microsoft ( if someone else thinks the future of RedHat and whatever company is so), I mean no problem at all. All science(biology,ecology or physics, even business modelling) we are discussing, talking about in everyday is a heritage, a mimic from the old ones to build new ones. If A.Einstein always kept in his mind that E= m.c (square) that what happen to blackholes researches that are based/developed from that formula. The focused thing is Could we get a fresh breeze from some achievements that RH or commercial companies develop?
well, please forget all if it is not adaptable with you. I know a friend in front of you, acquainted with you quite long, somehow it is still hard to understand, share the ideas each others, so you and I are just virtual friends, aren’t you?
cheer Linux with you.
D.Ph