Linked by Eugenia Loli on Fri 28th Jul 2006 18:28 UTC
.NET (dotGNU too) Microsoft is leaving Java in the dust, but the company still has room to grow in the developer arena, a key executive said. Speaking at the Microsoft FAM (Financial Analyst Meeting) on July 27 in Redmond, Wash., Bob Muglia, Microsoft's senior vice president of Server and Tools business, said Microsoft's .Net platform has outpaced Java, particularly the Java Enterprise Edition, over the past five years to become the development platform of choice for enterprise development.
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Hmmm
by kaiwai on Fri 28th Jul 2006 18:40 UTC
kaiwai
Member since:
2005-07-06

And no evidence given; sure, the number of .NET programmers are increasing, but that is more of a consolidation of existing VB developers who have migrated to VB.NET and existing C++/C developers who have picked up C#.

As for migration, I've seen very little actually go from Java to .NET; if there are any .NET migrations, they're going to be existing Windows customers, who quite frankly, were never going to run a Java application server on Windows in the first place; if you're running Windows, its pretty obvious that you're a 100% Microsoft house with little likelihood of running software from other vendors.

Edited 2006-07-28 18:41

Reply Score: 5

RE: Hmmm
by JeffS on Fri 28th Jul 2006 18:59 in reply to "Hmmm"
JeffS Member since:
2005-07-12

You are 100% correct.

I've seen no evidence of Java to .Net migration, in any way, shape, or form.

It's either the company is an all Microsoft shop, or it has a mix and match. Most of the all MS shops go with .Net, with a small amount using Java. And any mix and match house has to go Java, or perhaps RoR, or perhaps LAMP, or anything else that is cross platform.

And yes, the increase in .Net is mostly old VB to .Net migration, or old C++/MFC to C# migration.

When that transition period ends, so will the current growth rate of .Net. It will settle down, with more regular growth rates.

Reply Parent Score: 5

RE[2]: Hmmm
by bakanekov3 on Sat 29th Jul 2006 16:28 in reply to "RE: Hmmm"
bakanekov3 Member since:
2005-07-06

"Migrating" whole deployments is silly, unless you like nothing but pain. Existing deployments don't just up and go, just slowly phased out while new stuff gets added on; after all, we're still sitting on top of tons of COBOL.

What shifts is the primary development platform, this is the 60%. When ever someone says XYZ has ABC% of the development market, they're usually talking about the space on new development, not what's already there.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE: Hmmm
by Bryan on Fri 28th Jul 2006 19:24 in reply to "Hmmm"
Bryan Member since:
2005-07-11

That last statement, "if you're running Windows, its pretty obvious that you're a 100% Microsoft house with little likelihood of running software from other vendors" seems incredibly naive in light of the fact that there numerous companies have have heterogeneous infrastructure. There are lots of established companies with Unix systems that aren't going away in the immediate future. Similarly, plenty of smaller companies are taking a serious look at Linux as they grow. The homogeneous IT environment is the exception rather than the rule.

As for the subject at hand, I dunno what to think just yet. I'd like to know how much headway technologies like Ruby on Rails and PHP are making, since that's probably at Java's expense. (I'm basing that asssumption on the common Unix/Linux-centric roots as well as the fact that Java's been around longer--people are more hesitant to replace a .Net solution they just installed 2 years ago.)

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: Hmmm
by WorknMan on Fri 28th Jul 2006 19:41 in reply to "RE: Hmmm"
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

That last statement, "if you're running Windows, its pretty obvious that you're a 100% Microsoft house with little likelihood of running software from other vendors"

My company has developers who code mostly on Windows, but a few are on Linux too. The backend is a mix of mostly Java web stuff running on Apache and Resin on a mix of both Linux and Windows. There is a bit of .NET code thrown in for good measure.

As an end user, when it comes down to a choice between Java and .NET, it reminds me of that old question, "Would you rather be eaten out by Jaws or fingered by Captain Hook?" Can I choose neither, please? Can't the IT industry put their heads together and figure out a way to code native, cross-platform apps easily so we can drop this virtual machine crap?

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE: Hmmm
by yak8998 on Fri 28th Jul 2006 19:51 in reply to "Hmmm"
yak8998 Member since:
2006-07-28

"We've grown from having a quarter of the market to, now, 60 percent,"

I think thats a good degree of evidence, no?

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: Hmmm
by kwanbis on Fri 28th Jul 2006 20:58 in reply to "RE: Hmmm"
kwanbis Member since:
2005-07-06

how can they prove it? what market? who meassured it? how?

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[2]: Hmmm
by Celerate on Fri 28th Jul 2006 22:45 in reply to "RE: Hmmm"
Celerate Member since:
2005-06-29

"I think thats a good degree of evidence, no?"

No.
.net isn't much of a competitor to Java, it's a replacement for the Windows API. Microsoft is hardly competing, they didn't implement a runtime environment for any OS besides Windows and they couldn't care less whether mono is compatible with the latest .net implementation and APIs or not.

Can you imagine the damage it would do to Microsoft if after the majority of applications for Windows have been ported to .net, someone could get a Microsoft developed, properly implemented, and up to date version of the .net rumtime environment to run those applications perfectly under Linux or OS X. Windows would loose a lot of it's major selling points if it had no exclusive software any more.

Java's selling point is portability across platforms, .net on the other hand was never implemented by Microsoft outside of Windows. If you ask me they decided .net was a good idea because it means that .net applications will run on *windows* regardless of the cpu architecture and hardware.

Microsoft is trying to replace the Windows API with .net and people know it, so of course the large share of people who were already using the Windows API will migrate to .net considering it's the future of what they're already using. If that 60% figure is accurate, all it tells me is that Microsoft is effectively replacing the older Windows API with what they envision as a way of having people compile their Windows apps only once before distributing to every hardware configuration capable of running Windows.

Calling .net a competitor to Java is true on a technical basis, but Java's target is one that .net alone isn't interested in, and that's people who want to compile a program once for it to run on several different operating systems. For all it's worth, .net is the same threat the Windows API was, except more modern and easier to use.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: Hmmm
by kaiwai on Sat 29th Jul 2006 05:19 in reply to "RE: Hmmm"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Based on...? How many are running Windows that used to have a Java setup (most likely running on a non-Microsoft platform)? how many were running ASP but have moved to ASP.NET? it never actually outlines how many customers have migrated from a Java setup to a purely .NET configuration.

Like I said, is a consolidation of various technologies on the Windows platform; once complete, the .NET growth rate will go back and track against the growth rate of Windows.

You'll simply have the market split into two; Microsoft Windows and .NET and the rest; you run Windows, you'll be running .NET; and in Sun case, they don't really care about .NET because it isn't as though you can run .NET on Solaris, get support from Microsoft, and thus a real threat to Javas main benefit - multiplatform support.

That is why Java is popular at the backend; .NET is simply a replacement for an ugly way of doing things on Windows; Java on the other hand was there to solve a problem that doesn't relate to fixing an operating system problem.

Reply Parent Score: 1