Linked by Eugenia Loli on Fri 28th Jul 2006 18:28 UTC
.NET (dotGNU too) Microsoft is leaving Java in the dust, but the company still has room to grow in the developer arena, a key executive said. Speaking at the Microsoft FAM (Financial Analyst Meeting) on July 27 in Redmond, Wash., Bob Muglia, Microsoft's senior vice president of Server and Tools business, said Microsoft's .Net platform has outpaced Java, particularly the Java Enterprise Edition, over the past five years to become the development platform of choice for enterprise development.
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Lambda
Member since:
2006-07-28

Not true - Swing is extremely popular for corporate projects and has been found to be the #1 GUI toolkit.

http://weblogs.java.net/blog/hansmuller/archive/2005/10/official_sw.....


Unfortunately, Sun dropped the ball on making Swing fit into the desktop properly. It hasn't been until Mustang that they've really put the effort to make Swing look decent. They never put in the utility classes to make Swing development easier. Where are these desktop apps? Even the OSS world doesn't use Swing. The poll is pretty much meaningless.

ava has many times more features and classes than .NET available in the core libraries. The leadership at Sun believes that Java should embrace standards and vendor independence.

We're talking about the language proper, not random libraries.

Most shops do not have developers writing apps in several different languages, in fact it's typically discouraged. Having standards for development reduces complexity...having apps written in several different languages is a maintainence nightmare and a potential liability. Language independence is worthless, IMO, even though Java will soon have it as well (and already does somewhat w/ Groovy.)

It's irrelevant how you think most shops should do their development. The fact is that Sun has always had some weird infatuation with Java (the language) and not Java (the platform). We're moving into the hybrid Functional/OO world now. The question is if Sun is going to continue on the status quo and fall behind or get behind something like Scala, advance the Java language, or come up with something new.

It's clear that you're tech-savvy but are a bit of a Microsoft advocate and tend to lean on that side of the fence. It helps to be objective when making a comparison and knowing both sides of the issue never hurts.

I won't even bother responding to two paragraphs above this one since it's clear that you are just interested in being a status quo java fan boy, and not interested in advancing the platform.

It's clear that you're somewhat bitter about the current situation and find it hard to swallow some realities.

Reply Parent Score: 1

zambizzi Member since:
2006-04-23


Unfortunately, Sun dropped the ball on making Swing fit into the desktop properly. It hasn't been until Mustang that they've really put the effort to make Swing look decent.


That's a bit subjective...I work in Netbeans all day long on Java 1.5...it's quite attractive. Hell, it's even *fast*...surprise!


Where are these desktop apps?


Netbeans? Limewire? IntelliJ IDEA? Oracle JDevelper? Borland JBuilder? Where are the meaningful, slick, time-tested, useful .NET desktop apps? Sure, they look great on *Windows* - ever try to run them on a Mac? Linux? We've had .NET for 5 years now and still only have Winforms available for...Windows! Don't get me started on Mono...I know they're "getting there".


We're talking about the language proper, not random libraries.


What's C# got aside from a few syntactical-sugary features (e.g. operator overloading, output params, etc.) that most developers don't use? I guess they really spurred innovation w/ CamelCasing on all of their methods...brilliant! I can honestly say there's nothing about C# I really *miss*. Op. overloading is nice but not always useful. I like the JavaBeans standard so I don't really miss C# properties...especially since my tools generate the getter/setter methods.


We're moving into the hybrid Functional/OO world now.


Are we? I wasn't aware that the paradigm had shifted so abruptly. Where does C# currently have an advantage then? Java 5-forward they're doing a great job on keeping up and advancing it quickly. It might actually be a *good* thing to *not* have your language of choice constantly change. Ask the VB 6.0 folks about that.


It's clear that you're somewhat bitter about the current situation and find it hard to swallow some realities.


No, allow me to clarify my position. I'm *dead* tired of hearing anti-anything-but-MS drones prattle on about how "dead" Java is...how "old" Java is...how "yesterday" Java is. Nothing could be further from the truth yet there are marketing monkies and their followers out there lately proclaiming the end of Java and Java EE.

Get over yourselves...C#/.NET is quickly exiting it's "shiny new toy" phase and entering it's first stages of maturity...in two years people will be proclaming the end of C#/.NET even though it won't be true.

Reply Parent Score: 1

Lambda Member since:
2006-07-28

That's a bit subjective...I work in Netbeans all day long on Java 1.5...it's quite attractive. Hell, it's even *fast*...surprise!

Recent Mustang builds present a decent looking Swing, but anything before that looks like crap - especially on a LCD.

Netbeans? Limewire? IntelliJ IDEA? Oracle JDevelper? Borland JBuilder? Where are the meaningful, slick, time-tested, useful .NET desktop apps?

Interesting that all of those except one are developer tools. Swing has always been so ugly and foreign to the native desktops that its not surprising that there's not many general purpose desktop apps in it.

.NET is the future for windows. The vast majority of windows apps will be .NET. There's just no way around it. On Gnome, there's Tomboy, Beagle, Banshee, some photo management app. Java is all but abandoned on the open source desktop.

What's C# got aside from a few syntactical-sugary features (e.g. operator overloading, output params, etc.) that most developers don't use?

Ahh, another case of "we don't have it, so it's not useful" syndrome. How typical.

Are we? I wasn't aware that the paradigm had shifted so abruptly. Where does C# currently have an advantage then? Java 5-forward they're doing a great job on keeping up and advancing it quickly. It might actually be a *good* thing to *not* have your language of choice constantly change. Ask the VB 6.0 folks about that.

Please do a little research on C# 3.0 and VB 9 to see where things are moving towards. And that's basically my point of where does this leave Java. We don't stand still in time. The benefits of functional-style programming are well-known (functions as first-class values anyone?). It's basically a no-brainer.

No, allow me to clarify my position. I'm *dead* tired of hearing anti-anything-but-MS drones prattle on about how "dead" Java is.

Stop right there. You work in Netbeans all day long and you're sick and tired of hearing anti-Java, and how "dead" java is. First of all, I didn't and I don't even think the article said anything about "Java being dead". Your getting that peculiar to Java developer paranoia when any article about competition to Java comes out.

So you have to ask yourself why you're so defensive and want to bury your head in the sand regarding Java. That does nothing to advance the Java platform. In fact, as we've seen in the past it just allows Sun to rest on their laurels and not advance our tools. A architectural decision maker doesn't have the luxury of getting fanboyish about technologies. And it's likely that in your career in the future you won't even be using the Java that you know today.

The question was about the future of the Java platform. If you're resistant to change then you're probably in the wrong field anyway.

Reply Parent Score: 1

ewright Member since:
2005-07-21

In my opinion the most important thing that C# has over Java is good COM interop, which is vital for writing seamless Windows applications (desktop or server).

Reply Parent Score: 1