Linked by Eugenia Loli on Mon 30th Apr 2007 02:59 UTC, submitted by Dan Warne
Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu "It's out love for Ubuntu that I'm being so harsh in this review. Look where we're at -- 7.04, a number of significant releases since 4.10 Warty three years ago -- and it still can't manage the display properly. I had great expectations for 7.04, and unfortunately they're not all met. If you're a fanboy, don't read on, because I'll shatter your fragile world." More at APCMag.
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Upstream issues
by oomingmak on Mon 30th Apr 2007 09:30 UTC
oomingmak
Member since:
2006-09-22

The biggest problem (at least as far as I see it) is the fact that Ubuntu has no control over upstream bug issues.

Quibbling over details such as whether a 'Computer' icon should included on the Desktop by default, or what colour the uSpash should be, is all well and good, but does seem somewhat trivial when there are so many other far more serious bugs. The problem is that Canonical are in no position to do anything about these more serious issues.

Take a look at the Gutsy Gibbon Ideas Pool thread on the Ubuntu forum and you'll see that the overwhelming majority of issues & requests being posted relate to either Gnome or the kernel.

Many users will simply not understand (or care about) the distinction between the various constituent parts of the OS, and so Ubuntu will end up taking the blame for problems which are really nothing to do with it.

Given that Canonical seem to have a bit of cash at their disposal, I don't understand why they don't place a series of bounties on the most annoying bugs (as this may be a way for Canonical to positively influence upstream bug fixes that will specifically benefit Ubuntu - and everyone else in the long run).

An example of one of the issues that makes Gnome completely and utterly unusable to me is the totally half-arsed single-click implementation. I hate double-clicking with a passion, and I simply refuse to use any software that forces me to indulge in this pointless activity. In Ubuntu, not only does your single-click setting get totally ignored in all GTK File Open / Save As dialogs (thereby forcing you to endlessly double-click through layer after layer of folders) but even in Nautilus itself, single-click has not been implemented properly (there is no mouse over selection).

Even small new file managers like Thunar manage to get this correct in a way that Gnome simply can't be bothered with.

There is there already a patch for this particular issue, but the bug has been on Gnome's bugzilla for 4 years now, and still it has not been implemented.

That;s why I just laugh when I look at Gnome's HIG and see comments such as:

Make Your Application Consistent

Make your application consistent with itself and with other applications, in both its appearance and its behavior. This is one of the most important design principles, and probably the most famous, but it is also frequently ignored.


http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/2.0/principles-consiste...

Reply Score: 2

RE: Upstream issues
by Ookaze on Mon 30th Apr 2007 10:12 in reply to "Upstream issues"
Ookaze Member since:
2005-11-14

The biggest problem (at least as far as I see it) is the fact that Ubuntu has no control over upstream bug issues

No, but they can issue bug reports to upsdtream and apply their own patch as long as upstream doesn't fix their bugs.
For example, you couldn't use basic user management while using shadow password (with PAM at least) if distros didn't do that. That's how all distros deal with these issues (and how I work too).

Many users will simply not understand (or care about) the distinction between the various constituent parts of the OS, and so Ubuntu will end up taking the blame for problems which are really nothing to do with it

And rightly so. I see no problem there, they expect this.

An example of one of the issues that makes Gnome completely and utterly unusable to me is the totally half-arsed single-click implementation

You're completely dishonest here. If that's true, then Windows is completely unusable to you too. I know I have a vey hard time with Windows single click, and I have all kind of dangerous workaround to work with it in Windows. Actually, the single click behaviour is dangerous in Windows, and my workarounds deal with them.

In Ubuntu, not only does your single-click setting get totally ignored in all GTK File Open / Save As dialogs (thereby forcing you to endlessly double-click through layer after layer of folders) but even in Nautilus itself, single-click has not been implemented properly (there is no mouse over selection)

I think you know pretty well why this happens. You're really dishonest now.
First, what is this stupid "endlessly double-click through layer after layer of folders" ? What is this nonsense ?
You just don't do that on Gnome, unless you made layers and layers of folders on purpose, and didn't make a shortcut for any location, again on purpose. You should have to do that ONCE at most. Now, there's a reason the single-click was ignored historically. Now it's fixed, and I think this bug will be closed in the next Gnome release. But then, you should know as well as me why there's not the single-click behaviour in the filechooser. It would be like in Windows, where, for example, you want to save a new version of a file, so you want to click on the old name, then rename it, and then save. Unfortunately, when in single click mode in Windows, just clicking the file will just save the new version over the old one without prompt (because it's the same file), not allowing you to rename anything. It's the same problem when you want to do multi selection. Once you've been burned by this, you understand right away why Gnome does it like that, breaking the HIG instead of alienating the user. Better use double click than losing files
Well, we also both know the solution is to disable the "double click as single click" only in the filechooser when selecting a file that is not already selected. I think that's what the patch does actually.
What amazes me, is that the single sentence above, is what makes Gnome "completely and utterly unusable" to you.
Smells like FUD more than anything else. I don't say it isn't annoying, but "completely and utterly unusable"?

Even small new file managers like Thunar manage to get this correct in a way that Gnome simply can't be bothered with

You're just plain dishonest again. That's not that Gnome can't be bothered with this, but they had higher priority problems on which to put resources. You know, like the fact that some releases before, GTK+ wasn't aware of all these GConf settings in Nautilus, which is a far more generic problem, and one cause of this little problem.

There is there already a patch for this particular issue, but the bug has been on Gnome's bugzilla for 4 years now, and still it has not been implemented

If I was nitpicking, I'd say it's actually not 4 years old yet. But yeah, we all know bugs can stay unattended for a long time. If a big company with billions can't do it, I think we can excuse volunteers for not doing better on everything and every bugs.

That;s why I just laugh when I look at Gnome's HIG and see comments such as:
Make Your Application Consistent


Why does it make you laugh ? In case you don't know, the filechooser behaviour IS consistent across ALL Gnome apps. So what makes you laugh exactly ?

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[2]: Upstream issues
by oomingmak on Mon 30th Apr 2007 10:44 in reply to "RE: Upstream issues"
oomingmak Member since:
2006-09-22

You're completely dishonest here. If that's true, then Windows is completely unusable to you too. I know I have a vey hard time with Windows single click, and I have all kind of dangerous workaround to work with it in Windows. Actually, the single click behaviour is dangerous in Windows, and my workarounds deal with them.

I see, so because you have a hard time with single-click then that means that I must do too, and you therefore call me "completely dishonest" when you know nothing about me. I wonder how you manage to single-click web links and menu items if you have such a hard time with single-click.

When you have a full understanding of my mobility and difficulty with double-clicking, then you might be in a position to comment about what I do and don't find difficult. Until then, please don't tell me what my own abilities are, I know them far better than you do.


First, what is this stupid "endlessly double-click through layer after layer of folders"

Have you ever tried to change icons? /usr/share/icons/Tango/48x48/Places, nope the icon I want is not in there, let me look somewhere else, maybe it's in the 'Human' folder....


Unfortunately, when in single click mode in Windows, just clicking the file will just save the new version over the old one without prompt (because it's the same file), not allowing you to rename anything.

Where exactly do you see this behaviour?

If you want to rename the file then right-click and rename it (the same as you would do under any other circumstance). If you want to use an existing file name as a starting point for saving your new file then right clicking will put this file name into file name box where you can edit it before saving. If you only want to select a file in the File Save dialog, then you shouldn't be clicking on it, just point to a file to select it (which doesn't overwrite anything). Click 'activates', point 'selects'. If you try to save to an existing file you get a dialog telling that the file already exists and it asks "Do you want to replace it?"


Why does it make you laugh ? In case you don't know, the filechooser behaviour IS consistent across ALL Gnome apps.
So Nautilus is not Gnome app then?

Edited 2007-04-30 10:46

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE: Upstream issues
by RawMustard on Mon 30th Apr 2007 10:15 in reply to "Upstream issues"
RawMustard Member since:
2005-10-10

IMHO, Gnome is one of the biggest obstacles to linux on the desktop and the source of many of ubuntus problems. As a Desktop environment, it doesn't really have that much going for it. If KDE wasn't such a mess, it would reign supreme, I'm looking forward to seeing what version 4 brings to the table, in the meantime, Gnome will have to suffice.

Reply Parent Score: 3

RE[2]: Upstream issues
by chemical_scum on Mon 30th Apr 2007 14:11 in reply to "RE: Upstream issues"
chemical_scum Member since:
2005-11-02

As a Desktop environment, it doesn't really have that much going for it. If KDE wasn't such a mess, it would reign supreme, I'm looking forward to seeing what version 4 brings to the table, in the meantime, Gnome will have to suffice.

Tried XFce? I installed XFce 4.4 on Dapper (http://tech.tolero.org/blog/en/linux/xfce-440-packages-for-ubuntu-e...) not Xubuntu. It is really good and much faster than Gnome.

Edited 2007-04-30 14:13

Reply Parent Score: 2