Linked by Thom Holwerda on Wed 6th Jan 2010 20:01 UTC
Internet Explorer It would appear that Microsoft will finally take standards compliance in the browser world seriously, after dragging its feet for years. Back in November 2009, the Redmond giant already revealed that Internet Explorer 9 would come with CSS3 and HTML5 support, and now the cup runneth over, as Microsoft has requested to join the W3C's SVG Working Group.
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RE[3]: Comment by Kroc
by Nelson on Thu 7th Jan 2010 00:11 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Comment by Kroc"
Nelson
Member since:
2005-11-29

I don't see the real urgency, when today, now, at this moment, you can write RIAs in Silverlight and be more productive than with anything HTML5/SVG/CSS3 could possibly offer up.

Nice additions sure, but its not the end of the world. Flash just gives plugin based RIAs a bad name, Silverlight runs circles around it performance wise.

Silverlight still does things faster than every browsers Javascript implementation, especially with the GPU support in Silverlight3.

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE[4]: Comment by Kroc
by kaiwai on Thu 7th Jan 2010 00:25 in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by Kroc"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

I don't see the real urgency, when today, now, at this moment, you can write RIAs in Silverlight and be more productive than with anything HTML5/SVG/CSS3 could possibly offer up.

Nice additions sure, but its not the end of the world. Flash just gives plugin based RIAs a bad name, Silverlight runs circles around it performance wise.

Silverlight still does things faster than every browsers Javascript implementation, especially with the GPU support in Silverlight3.


Assuming you live in a Windows only world; what about those on non-Windows machines? what about those who then end up creating non-portable Silverlight applications by using the new COM feature (in Silverlight 4) to call native code? If everyone was a first class citizen on Silverlight because Microsoft gave a crap about more than just the Windows implementation then I'd be happy to jump on the Silverlight bandwagon but when non-Windows users are relegated to second class citizenship (both plugin and development tools) one is stuck between either the abortion of a RIA called Flash or Silverlight where all non-Microsoft platforms are second class citizens.

Edited 2010-01-07 00:28 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 7

RE[5]: Comment by Kroc
by Nelson on Thu 7th Jan 2010 01:21 in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by Kroc"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Assuming you live in a Windows only world; what about those on non-Windows machines?


Silverlight is available on OSX and Linux (using Moonlight). Silverlight is also coming to Windows Mobile 7 and Symbian (so far)


what about those who then end up creating non-portable Silverlight applications by using the new COM feature (in Silverlight 4) to call native code?


Using COM interop in Silverlight really is like using COM interop in .NET. Used only in extremely specific situations. I highly doubt it will be this widespread thing.

With that said, I don't like it. However it was apparently a really requested feature.


If everyone was a first class citizen on Silverlight because Microsoft gave a crap about more than just the Windows implementation then I'd be happy to jump on the Silverlight bandwagon but when non-Windows users are relegated to second class citizenship (both plugin and development tools)


I can certainly see your point, but I think that with Silverlight4 its not an issue. For OSX Silverlight parity is like 0.9999999:1 with Windows. The exception being COM support.

However with Silverlight being given Full Trust Out of Browser support it is really a Cross Platform implementation of the .NET Framework.

It will all be up to how the developers use the technology, and I think that the developers using Silverlight do not act in lock step with whatever alleged diabolical scheme Microsoft has to lock people into COM+Silverlight apps.

There is a pretty pervasive mentality in the .NET scene where COM hatred is widespread. Personally I cringe whenever I have to do interop and think the entire idea is an abomination.

Besides for 99% of RIA work with Silverlight, you dont need COM at all.

As for the dev tools, I agree they need to be cross platform. A glimmer of hope being that Expression Blend is a 100% WPF application which offers some potential for being ported to Silverlight+Full Trust OOB in the future.

VS2010 is mixed mode, but more and more of it is being written in WPF opening up the future for it to go down that path as well.


one is stuck between either the abortion of a RIA called Flash or Silverlight where all non-Microsoft platforms are second class citizens.


I think they've done a commendable job of keeping OSX in the loop. In fact, if you stop to think, besides the COM automation, they have a spotless record of cross platform with OSX.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[5]: Comment by Kroc
by BluenoseJake on Thu 7th Jan 2010 03:04 in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by Kroc"
BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

There is nothing stopping somebody else from implementing COM on Linux or any other platform, it is just a specification for implementing interfaces to binary objects, no different from CORBA.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[4]: Comment by Kroc
by werpu on Thu 7th Jan 2010 07:18 in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by Kroc"
werpu Member since:
2006-01-18

I don't see the real urgency, when today, now, at this moment, you can write RIAs in Silverlight and be more productive than with anything HTML5/SVG/CSS3 could possibly offer up.

Nice additions sure, but its not the end of the world. Flash just gives plugin based RIAs a bad name, Silverlight runs circles around it performance wise.

Silverlight still does things faster than every browsers Javascript implementation, especially with the GPU support in Silverlight3.


Thanks no I wont write things in silverlight, a semi closed technology only working in Windows... The current situation is that it is better to stick to plain ole web without too much fancy, then you also can support mobile devices rather swiftly.
Silverlight is yet another Microsoft attempt to take over the web instead of playing nicely. Before using Silverlight I even would use flex, it is more portable and the proprietarity factor is about the same.
Remember that Microsoft once had IE versions for the Mac and Unix that is what you get if you go into bed with Microsoft solutions which do not adhere to standards, in the long run you will get a lockin, been there done that never again!

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[5]: Comment by Kroc
by BluenoseJake on Thu 7th Jan 2010 12:00 in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by Kroc"
BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

There's Moonlight, but you can choose to ignore that if you want, I won't stop you.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[4]: Comment by Kroc
by spiderman on Thu 7th Jan 2010 10:38 in reply to "RE[3]: Comment by Kroc"
spiderman Member since:
2008-10-23

I don't see the real urgency, when today, now, at this moment, you can write RIAs in Silverlight and be more productive than with anything HTML5/SVG/CSS3 could possibly offer up.

Nice additions sure, but its not the end of the world. Flash just gives plugin based RIAs a bad name, Silverlight runs circles around it performance wise.

Silverlight still does things faster than every browsers Javascript implementation, especially with the GPU support in Silverlight3.

Silversight does not replace SVG!
SVG is accessible and can even be rendered on text browsers, blind people can get a description, etc...
Silversight is designed to replace java and in my opinion is inferior to java anyway. Java has many implementions on many platforms. It runs on AIX as well as on S40. Nobody uses Silversight on the Web, except Microsoft.
Really, this has nothing to do with SVG. SVG can be tightly integrated into xhtml and you can do whatever you want with XSL. Silversight is for annoying ads that you won't be able to block on 80% of desktop computers.

Edited 2010-01-07 10:53 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[5]: Comment by Kroc
by Nelson on Thu 7th Jan 2010 19:16 in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by Kroc"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29


Silversight does not replace SVG!
SVG is accessible and can even be rendered on text browsers, blind people can get a description, etc...
Silversight is designed to replace java and in my opinion is inferior to java anyway. Java has many implementions on many platforms. It runs on AIX as well as on S40. Nobody uses Silversight on the Web, except Microsoft.


XAML is a markup language for UI layout and vector drawing. SVG is used for vector drawing, but for UI layout it's really not anywhere near XAML which offers the tightest object model integration of any declarative markup out there.

It seamlessly merges vector drawing with layout positioning as opposed to in XHTML where there is a hard distinction.


Silversight is for annoying ads that you won't be able to block on 80% of desktop computers.


Silverlight includes a subset of the .NET Framework. C# code executed by Silverlight is faster than any Javascript implementation out there.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[5]: Comment by Kroc
by StaubSaugerNZ on Thu 7th Jan 2010 19:23 in reply to "RE[4]: Comment by Kroc"
StaubSaugerNZ Member since:
2007-07-13

"I don't see the real urgency, when today, now, at this moment, you can write RIAs in Silverlight and be more productive than with anything HTML5/SVG/CSS3 could possibly offer up.

Nice additions sure, but its not the end of the world. Flash just gives plugin based RIAs a bad name, Silverlight runs circles around it performance wise.

Silverlight still does things faster than every browsers Javascript implementation, especially with the GPU support in Silverlight3.

Silversight does not replace SVG!
SVG is accessible and can even be rendered on text browsers, blind people can get a description, etc...
Silversight is designed to replace java and in my opinion is inferior to java anyway. Java has many implementions on many platforms. It runs on AIX as well as on S40. Nobody uses Silversight on the Web, except Microsoft.
Really, this has nothing to do with SVG. SVG can be tightly integrated into xhtml and you can do whatever you want with XSL. Silversight is for annoying ads that you won't be able to block on 80% of desktop computers.
"

After working with Google Web Toolkit I'm pleased with it for simpler sites.

For more complicated sites I've switched back to Java applets/WebStart. Yes they're generally discredited but what you can do with them is incredible. Now that the Java VM in preloading in Windows and Java 6 has fully hardware accelerated graphics you can do some really snazzy stuff (called 'filthy rich clients') that is just not possible with Javascript.

With Java can also do a lot of stuff that's hard to do with Flash. Silverlight just isn't a starter as it has wrinkles on other platforms (and I switch between Windows, Ubuntu and MacOS for development depending on what computer I'm closest to at the time).

For those of you with open minds take a second look at Java on the web - it is very nice these days. For those of you without open minds, ignore what I just said, no need to flame.

Edited 2010-01-07 19:27 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2