Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 11th Feb 2010 18:29 UTC
Opera Software Everybody's favourite Norwegian browser maker has released the beta version of Opera 10.50, the next iteration of the featureful web browser. As Kroc already touched upon late last year, Opera 10.50 comes packed with a lot of improvements across the board, from a new JavaScript engine to an improved address field.
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PresentIt
Member since:
2010-02-10

With Windows native skin, previous versions of Opera fitted in with the UI whether it was in Windows classic, XP's teletubby default, the IMO ugly and distracting Vista theme, whatever.

I disagree, but never mind. The "native" skin wasn't even standard. Now Opera actually fits with the default Windows theme.

"If you use the standard themes, Opera fits perfectly.

No, it doesn't. Try to understand that I'm talking about the feel, not just the aesthetics. Like I said: Opera no longer has the standard Windows MDI features, consistent with numerous other Windows apps, that it had since the very first version.
"
You mean MDI like Internet Explorer? Your claims are laughable. Never mind the fact that the context here is look and feel. Opera's MDI has always been different from everyone else. It isn't even proper MDI anymore (they have made a huge number of hacks to make it more SDI-like).

At the moment that loss is causing a lot of usability problems, at least for those of us who use some of Opera's most unique and powerful features.

But that's a completely different claim from the claim that it doesn't look like a native Windows app.

I've used many previous Opera betas, had a look at that document, and I still think you're talking nonsense.

Again, you are wrong. Search for "final" here:

http://www.opera.com/docs/history/#facts

Just some examples of features added in final versions, not betas:

Dragonfly, cookie manager, fraud protection, NTLM support, User JS, password manager...

Tweaks and bug fixes - that's generally all that changes between beta and the final release.

Wrong.

There are one or two exceptions, but nothing compared with the amount of broken functionality in 10.5. There are past alpha tests have had far fewer major issues.

Wrong again.

I always try betas of Opera when they're released, and this is the first one that I haven't been willing to use as my day-to-day browser.

So what? You don't represent everyone else. Hardly anyone cares about MDI.

To me MDI window management has always been one of Opera's most important features

Yeah, but you don't represent most people.

In Opera 10.5 it's a bug ridden, barely usable, mess of broken functionality, no different from how it was in the pre-alpha, when those problems were first reported.

Nonsense. They have fixed a lot of MDI stuff since the pre-alpha.

Reply Parent Score: 1

Dave_K Member since:
2005-11-16

I disagree, but never mind. The "native" skin wasn't even standard. Now Opera actually fits with the default Windows theme.


The native skin was included as standard, it just wasn't the default. Since I've kept native on and upgraded my installation with new releases, I've had the same consistent look, fitting in with my OS, since I first started using Opera in the 90s. 10.5 is the first one that looks out of place on my desktop. Obviously YMMV.

Opera's MDI has always been different from everyone else. It isn't even proper MDI anymore (they have made a huge number of hacks to make it more SDI-like).


Completely wrong.

To keep it simple for people switching from browsers like IE they haven't used MDI as the default for years, but with a few tweaks it's still a full MDI app, that works just like other proper MDI apps.

Change a few options and the 10.10 UI can work almost exactly like Opera 2/3 from 96/97, with all the same MDI features. Opera 10.5 is a big change from that.

Just some examples of features added in final versions, not betas:

Dragonfly, cookie manager, fraud protection, NTLM support, User JS, password manager...


The Dragonfly debugger is itself an alpha test of optional development tools - it isn't a core browser feature. I don't think many Opera end users would even know what Dragonfly is.

The cookie manager, password manager and fraud protection were added in 7.1 and 9.1 - updates to Opera which never had their own beta releases. New features get added via point releases to update the browser, but that isn't the same as features being added between the beta and the .0 final.

As for NTLM support and User JS - Like I said: there were one or two exceptions. I'd call those quite minor ones.

That doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of previous Opera betas were feature complete, without seriously broken functionality, and mainly just needed tweaks and bug fixes before release. You've just proven that point.

So what? You don't represent everyone else. Hardly anyone cares about MDI.


Maybe (although quite a few long term Opera users do seem to care about it) but that's irrelevant to the fact that this functionality is included in a badly bug ridden and half finished state, rendering it almost unusable.

Nonsense. They have fixed a lot of MDI stuff since the pre-alpha.


There were changes since the very first pre-alpha, but there were several more releases between those changes and the beta. The point is that all the problems were reported well before the beta was released, yet they were not fixed. This hasn't been the case with any previous Opera beta that I can remember.

Reply Parent Score: 2

PresentIt Member since:
2010-02-10

The native skin was included as standard, it just wasn't the default.

Exactly. And now the native skin is useless since they are moving to a standard skin which is even more native for the latest Windows versions.

with a few tweaks it's still a full MDI app, that works just like other proper MDI apps.

Wrong. Opera's UI is not a native Windows UI. It's using their own cross-platform toolkit, which means that they had to emulate MDI. And while doing so, they added all sorts of hacks. Opera acts nothing like a standard Windows MDI app no matter what you dp.

Change a few options and the 10.10 UI can work almost exactly like Opera 2/3 from 96/97, with all the same MDI features. Opera 10.5 is a big change from that.

And THAT is why they shouldn't have released it? LOL. MDI is irrelevant for 99.999%. Shipping a beta without finishing MDI is perfectly fine.

The Dragonfly debugger is itself an alpha test of optional development tools - it isn't a core browser feature.

Irrelevant. It was released with after a beta version.

The cookie manager, password manager and fraud protection were added in 7.1 and 9.1 - updates to Opera which never had their own beta releases.

Wrong.

That doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of previous Opera betas were feature complete, without seriously broken functionality, and mainly just needed tweaks and bug fixes before release. You've just proven that point.

Again, you are wrong. And the fact is that MDI is irrelevant in the big picture.

Reply Parent Score: 1