Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 14th Mar 2011 18:59 UTC
Talk, Rumors, X Versus Y And over the weekend, the saga regarding Canonical, GNOME, and KDE has continued. Lots of comments all over the web, some heated, some well-argued, some wholly indifferent. Most interestingly, Jeff Waugh and Dave Neary have elaborated on GNOME's position after the initial blog posts by Shuttleworth and Seigo, providing a more coherent look at GNOME's side of the story.
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RE[5]: F**k this shit!
by nt_jerkface on Tue 15th Mar 2011 02:15 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: F**k this shit!"
nt_jerkface
Member since:
2009-08-26

Please go and look how you do fully functional real-time support on Windows.


I think you exaggerate this feature as you have in the past but even at face value it means nothing to 99.9% of corporations or users.

Also a lot of crashes on windows can be traced to kernel mode driver conflicts. Yes there is not magic.


Linux is more likely to crash from driver conflicts, especially if it is related to video. Just ask Thom.

There are cases of Windows 7 SP1 destroying stored data on harddrives that do directly track to black box + black box equal o my god data loss.


Haven't heard of that. But I do know about the data loss issues with EXT4.
http://linux.slashdot.org/story/09/03/19/1730247/Ext4-Data-Losses-E...

nt_jerkface your argument against Linux in a lot of ways is baseless. Main reason why Linux does not have many commercial apps is market-share nothing else.


Commercial apps like VMServer that have been broken with kernel updates.

As I have pointed out before the iphone had better commercial software support when it had 1/10th the marketshare of Linux. Linux could be more appealing to proprietary software and hardware developers but the people behind it simply don't give a shit. They value open source ideology over market share. That's a fact, not an opinion.

But keep defending the status quo. MS would be upset if Linus & co decided to provide a platform that was proprietary friendly. They like how Linux stays ideological and at 1%. You probably deserve a few dozen copies of Windows 7 for all the defending you do of the status quo. That and a mac mini from Apple.

Reply Parent Score: -1

RE[6]: F**k this shit!
by oiaohm on Tue 15th Mar 2011 02:58 in reply to "RE[5]: F**k this shit!"
oiaohm Member since:
2009-05-30

"Please go and look how you do fully functional real-time support on Windows.


I think you exaggerate this feature as you have in the past but even at face value it means nothing to 99.9% of corporations or users.
"
When you do that where all the locking issues are that cause people to complain there computer is slow to start up and so on show up really badly.

So no its not a feature 99.9% of users would directly use. But its more picky to the issues. You know something has gone badly wrong when the only way to make it work is basically embed another kernel inside.

OS X and Linux kernel both can be made operate real-time. Neither has major design flaws any more preventing it. And where those flaws are are in source code you can alter. Hello OS X kernel is part open source. There is no reason why key low levels of Windows OS's could not be released open source as well to prevent nightmares. These are preventable errors.

There are reasons why I don't tar OS X completely with the same brush as Windows. At least some sane selections in the Apple camp have been done on what has to be closed source.

"Also a lot of crashes on windows can be traced to kernel mode driver conflicts. Yes there is not magic.


Linux is more likely to crash from driver conflicts, especially if it is related to video. Just ask Thom.
"
Linux driver issues are all basically in 1 spot mostly drivers in development or drivers developed in black box method so touchy to any kernel alteration. Yes I have spoke in person to Thom.

Windows they are all over the place. Some are really funny. Like insert a usb device that is not defective or tampered with into a particular machine and watch the machine reboot. Usb controller and device driver for the usb device you just plugged in conflit. Leave the device in the machine will remain in a never ending reboot cycle until its removed. Change either of the usb controller or the device drivers and problem disappears. Yes its very much with windows do you fell lucky.

"There are cases of Windows 7 SP1 destroying stored data on harddrives that do directly track to black box + black box equal o my god data loss.


Haven't heard of that. But I do know about the data loss issues with EXT4.
http://linux.slashdot.org/story/09/03/19/1730247/Ext4-Data-Losses-E...
"
How often are you going to bring this up. At the time Ext4 was not marked production ready. It was marked testing. If you are dumb enough to format a drive ext4 in 2009 and you lose your data because it was not tested who fault is that. The persons who used a filesystem before testing was complete for data.

Its like saying running a beta copy of windows and it screwed up and eats you data its Microsoft fault. Sorry no its not.

Of course if the same fault happened this year I would be out for the maintainers blood. Because a fault like that should not happen.

"nt_jerkface your argument against Linux in a lot of ways is baseless. Main reason why Linux does not have many commercial apps is market-share nothing else.


Commercial apps like VMServer that have been broken with kernel updates.
"
VMServer also was broken on OS X, Windows and Linux at different times due to kernel updates. This is not a Linux Unique issue.

Of course you don't mention that VMServer has regularly failed on all. Black box in kernel space a risk of failure. VMware in recent times have been working more with mainline Linux and the failure rates are reducing. In fact to lower rates of fail per year under Linux then and OS X or Windows.

Also you most likely want to forget the big one where all MS clients running inside VMServer failed completely due to a Windows update recently. Yes the clients become incompatible with VMServer paravirtalisation drivers.

So really you want a direct example of why not blackbox you don't have to do anything else then chart VMServer failures per platform against how black box the platform is to VMware.


As I have pointed out before the iphone had better commercial software support when it had 1/10th the marketshare of Linux. Linux could be more appealing to proprietary software and hardware developers but the people behind it simply don't give a shit. They value open source ideology over market share. That's a fact, not an opinion.


Big error. iphone core OS is same as OS X. Lot of small applications from OS X could port to iphone without much recoding.

Android has also taken off with commercial applications and it has a Linux kernel. So any kernel design selection has Zero effect on if commercial makers will make for Linux or not.


But keep defending the status quo. MS would be upset if Linus & co decided to provide a platform that was proprietary friendly. They like how Linux stays ideological and at 1%. You probably deserve a few dozen copies of Windows 7 for all the defending you do of the status quo. That and a mac mini from Apple.


Linus is the kernel maintainer. Android disproves you point solid. Application developers for over 99 percent of cases don't need drivers custom for them or anything custom in kernel.

Have distributions made it too hard at times for commercials. I have not defended that. Also redhat has more closed source commercial applications from third parties alone while iphone was a small marketshare.

So its a pure myth that Linux does not have closed source applications.

The major reason for people not being on for linux desktop pc can be addressed in 2 words. Microsoft Office. The defacto standard that has become. Platform compatibility issues.

There is another issue on Linux. Nero struck it head on. The simple problem was feature wise open source k3b had more features and better features than nero burning software. So releasing nero on Linux that does exist has a 15 dollar max price tag and almost never sells.

Linux huge pool of open source applications so not leaving much room for large numbers of commerical applications.

Google and HP(android/web os) solution break the api to give commercial applications a chance. Yes creating a short fall(ie clean slate) has shown how mythical lot of arguments to explain Linux lack of closed source applications is.

Final point what has prevented comercial applications makers for joining up and making there own unified framework to run their applications on Linux.

That right there bitter rivalry. About time you start doing the blame correctly.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[7]: F**k this shit!
by nt_jerkface on Wed 16th Mar 2011 18:38 in reply to "RE[6]: F**k this shit!"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26


VMServer also was broken on OS X, Windows and Linux at different times due to kernel updates. This is not a Linux Unique issue.


Making stuff up again. I'd like to hear of these cases where VMServer was broken on Windows Server due to kernel updates.

I can source numerous breaks with kernel updates; rebuilding vmware kernel modules is a standard affair for Linux.

In fact to lower rates of fail per year under Linux then and OS X or Windows.


That's a big fat lie.

Big error. iphone core OS is same as OS X. Lot of small applications from OS X could port to iphone without much recoding.


Most iphone games are not available for OS X.

Android has also taken off with commercial applications and it has a Linux kernel. So any kernel design selection has Zero effect on if commercial makers will make for Linux or not.


Android is a completely different subject. It's designed by engineers who actually want to build a platform that encourages development of both proprietary and open source applications.

Linus is the kernel maintainer. Android disproves you point solid. Application developers for over 99 percent of cases don't need drivers custom for them or anything custom in kernel.

I'm not mixing kernel and application development problems, they just happen to intersect in some areas. The main problem with Linux distros is that their distribution systems are designed around open source.

Also redhat has more closed source commercial applications from third parties alone while iphone was a small marketshare.


Server applications that are mostly command line or output to a webpage. Those companies only need to target a single distro and their customers are server admins that don't expect the same level of usability. It's a completely different market and one that works.

So its a pure myth that Linux does not have closed source applications.


I never once claimed that it doesn't. Linux is a PITA for companies like EA Games. That's what it comes down to.

The major reason for people not being on for linux desktop pc can be addressed in 2 words. Microsoft Office. The defacto standard that has become. Platform compatibility issues.


That is a major factor but even on netbooks where MS Office is not expected Linux has caused too many problems for new users.

There is another issue on Linux. Nero struck it head on. The simple problem was feature wise open source k3b had more features and better features than nero burning software. So releasing nero on Linux that does exist has a 15 dollar max price tag and almost never sells.


Um that's nice, Linux has a lousy game selection so it's not as if all bases are covered.

Linux huge pool of open source applications so not leaving much room for large numbers of commerical applications.


Except for a docx compatible office suite, tax software, bookkeeping software, video editing, and more. The best open source applications get ported to Windows so I really don't see what your point is.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[6]: F**k this shit!
by Valhalla on Tue 15th Mar 2011 08:21 in reply to "RE[5]: F**k this shit!"
Valhalla Member since:
2006-01-24

Linux is more likely to crash from driver conflicts, especially if it is related to video. Just ask Thom.

If one wanted an objective opinion on Windows vs Linux, you'd expect anyone to go to Thom? Seriously?

My last Windows upgrade was from XP to XP64 and it sure came with driver hell, including video drivers. I also remember a ton of problems when people were upgrading to Vista. And no, this is no evidence of Windows being worse than Linux either, it just shows that there's no basis for your 'more likely' since there are certainly flaky drivers in both Windows and Linux.

As I have pointed out before the iphone had better commercial software support when it had 1/10th the marketshare of Linux.

Totally different market segments, I'm pretty sure companies realises that targeting Linux desktop with 'fart apps' would be a commercial suicide, just like they aren't targeting the Windows desktop with it either.

Linux has a small desktop market share, which is reflected in the amount of commercial software available for it. However the whole 'not appealing to proprietary developers thing' is just bullshit. If the market is there then so are the apps. Just look at 3D/SFX, Linux is huge there and that is why all the latest versions of commercial top applications like Maya, XSI, Mudbox, Houdini, Nuke, Renderman, etc are available for Linux.

The reason this market exists on Linux is because it's the platform of choice for pretty much every large SFX/3D company, so despite the overall small market share, Linux is extremely well supported in this segment.

Reply Parent Score: 4

RE[7]: F**k this shit!
by lucas_maximus on Tue 15th Mar 2011 15:45 in reply to "RE[6]: F**k this shit!"
lucas_maximus Member since:
2009-08-18

Linux has a small desktop market share, which is reflected in the amount of commercial software available for it. However the whole 'not appealing to proprietary developers thing' is just bullshit. If the market is there then so are the apps. Just look at 3D/SFX, Linux is huge there and that is why all the latest versions of commercial top applications like Maya, XSI, Mudbox, Houdini, Nuke, Renderman, etc are available for Linux.

The reason this market exists on Linux is because it's the platform of choice for pretty much every large SFX/3D company, so despite the overall small market share, Linux is extremely well supported in this segment.


All this proves is that Linux is primarily use by people with a high level of technical proficiency or where the core OS can be hidden by the user (such as Android Devices).

There will never be a market for it anywhere else because of core usabililty issues.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE[7]: F**k this shit!
by nt_jerkface on Tue 15th Mar 2011 23:39 in reply to "RE[6]: F**k this shit!"
nt_jerkface Member since:
2009-08-26

If one wanted an objective opinion on Windows vs Linux, you'd expect anyone to go to Thom? Seriously?


Yes I would, he has an interest in alternative operating systems and has given Linux a fair trial on numerous occasions. From the way he writes I can tell that he wants to like Linux but has had too many problems with it. He sure as hell is no Paul Thurott.

My last Windows upgrade was from XP to XP64 and it sure came with driver hell, including video drivers.


XP to XP64 is a major upgrade. XP64 is based on Server 2003. You went from a desktop to server OS.

I also remember a ton of problems when people were upgrading to Vista. And no, this is no evidence of Windows being worse than Linux either, it just shows that there's no basis for your 'more likely' since there are certainly flaky drivers in both Windows and Linux.


Linux is far more likely to break drivers between minor upgrades. You'd have to be pretty deluded to believe otherwise. The problem is not with the actual Linux drivers but a kernel level driver model that is not designed around end users or hardware companies.

Totally different market segments, I'm pretty sure companies realises that targeting Linux desktop with 'fart apps' would be a commercial suicide, just like they aren't targeting the Windows desktop with it either.


Fart apps? There are hundreds of full length games on the iphone. Why isn't The Sims 3 available for Linux? It is on every other platform including the iphone.

However the whole 'not appealing to proprietary developers thing' is just bullshit.


No distro is trying to cater to proprietary developers. They have software distribution systems that are designed around open source. Ubuntu has been moving towards supporting proprietary developers but is still centered around the repository system which favors open source.

The reason this market exists on Linux is because it's the platform of choice for pretty much every large SFX/3D company, so despite the overall small market share, Linux is extremely well supported in this segment.


Linux is used in rendering farms but is a minority platform when it comes to desktop drawing.

Reply Parent Score: 2