Linked by Hiev on Tue 8th Nov 2011 22:45 UTC
Fedora Core "The following are major features for Fedora 16: enhanced cloud support including Aeolus Conductor, Condor Cloud, HekaFS, OpenStack and pacemaker-cloud; KDE Plasma workspaces 4.7; GNOME 3.2; a number of core system improvements including GRUB 2 and the removal of HAL; an updated libvirtd, trusted boot, guest inspection, virtual lock manager and a pvops based kernel for Xen all improve virtualization support."
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Trying again GNOME Shell...
by Jason Bourne on Wed 9th Nov 2011 01:16 UTC
Jason Bourne
Member since:
2007-06-02

[This is about Fedora 16 Default Desktop Edition]

GNOME Shell was really well marketed. Yes. Why do I keep trying it? It must be psychological or a desperation to solve the desktop dilemma in my soul. I tried GNOME Shell so many times, and unfortunately, things remain the same. All in the same place. Horrible fonts, some crashes, and a navigation / interaction system I can't understand. Not that I can't understand. I can. What I can't understand is why everything is so out of place and silly.

It's like someone who tried to reinvent the wheel and said - ok, now cars will sport a new design, using octagonal wheels, to prevent more accidents, since people can't be trusted to drive a vehicle good enough. That is the exact metaphor of GNOME Shell for me.

Ok, I opened my music player. Now an email client. Now a terminal; now the file manager. Then I go for Empathy, and Firefox. Ok, things got a little too cluttered. So I drag some of them towards the right-side panel workspaces, to alleviate the issue. While I am one application, I have to constantly go to "Activities" to "monitor" what is going on in the background. My eyes can't see much out of a workspace panel... there's not much to see, apart from the fact that I have to select *THAT* workspace and completely let go loose of what I was doing. Was I in Firefox? What was I doing? That is where the Linus' quoted "mess" comes in.

And the process keeps going and going. Ok, I have counted now that I went to Activities for at least 100 times in 40 minutes. That is where the Linus' quoted "crazy" comes in. I feel it.

Suddenly, my brain gets an apnea. Like sleeping apnea. You stop for a moment, and there's distraction. (In apnea, you get a halt in your breathing system, and your brain wakes you up, not letting you sleep). I browse workspaces all over again to see what I am doing. Ok, I was trying to browse for a file. But Firefox is at another workspace, which means that I have to go back to Activities and move workspaces again just to get to it. That is where the Linus' quoted "head up the arse" comes in.

Now I see a established distro making a decision to use this desktop as default. A distro that is preferred by Linus Torvalds himself. And no one to question. Every Fedora user seems to be happy, accepting this. Number 3 at Distrowatch.com, things are calm, quiet. Good enough. Millions using it. That is where the Linus' quote "unholy" comes in. Unholy because despite these facts, everybody is happy with it, accepting as it was the Holy Grail in modern desktop design.

Wait, I was told by a GNOME propaganda video that GNOME 3 was made to minimize distraction. Well, I am dsitracted... What now? I am fully distracted because I have to just drop things and go to Activities to take care of other things. Who is the responsible for this entire sh1te? I would at least have fired this group of people.

I tried. And I can't use it. Brain apnea. Mess. For people who fire up 3 applications and like to see 3D effects, it might be cool. It may even compete with Google Chrome OS. But... let's be serious. Not a GNOME 2 replacement at all.

Unholy Mess - oh he knows what he says. Precisely.

Unfortunately, Fedora 14 was my last Fedora. GNOME 3 will eventually hit Red Hat stock product. And this will be another story.

All I wanted is that was a huge call out for MATE (GNOME 2 fork). A huge call out from developers everywhere to make this brand into the mainstream and keep us Linux users with sane choices. MATE started with one guy. There may be more now. Lift up the flag. Spread the word. MATE can be even bigger than GNOME. There's still no website. No foundation. We need it. We need the support of all developers. To port MATE to GTK 3, to port new themes, to re-structure the system back end and get rid of silly dependencies. It can be done. Really.

This was the last time I used GNOME Shell. Today.
And to my surprise, a live Fedora session may/will crash if you start installing stuff. From USB stick or Live CD in RAM. Curiously I havent't experienced this with Ubuntu Live CDs... ever, even after installing tons of apps in a single session.

Fedora, blows everything again. It's a shame.

Edited 2011-11-09 01:28 UTC

Reply Score: 8

RE: Trying again GNOME Shell...
by Hiev on Wed 9th Nov 2011 01:28 in reply to "Trying again GNOME Shell..."
Hiev Member since:
2005-09-27

Fedora is more than GNOME shell, if you don't like it use the KDE spin or the XFCE spin, don't confuse the DE with the distro.

Reply Parent Score: 5

Jason Bourne Member since:
2007-06-02

Did you read the very first line between brackets?
Besides, I do not enjoy KDE spins, neither XFCE spins.

Reply Parent Score: 3

fast_rizwaan Member since:
2010-09-01

1 for mess and crazy and "head up the arse"
use Alt+tab and ctrl+alt+up/down arrow keys; well only alt+tab will be easier for you. or right-click on the 'dash' icons

2 unholy
make it holier by customizing with shortcuts, extensions; just because you dislike some parts of it and don't know how to work with it and feel lazy to learn, that does not make it unholy

3 Wait, I was told by a GNOME propaganda video that GNOME 3 was made to minimize distraction. Well, I am dsitracted... What now?

use alt+tab and dash icons (all the activities related distractions will be gone for you);

Reply Parent Score: 2

Jason Bourne Member since:
2007-06-02

Ridiculous. I prefer to go to the gym, instead of this.

Reply Parent Score: 1

allanregistos Member since:
2011-02-10

1 for mess and crazy and "head up the arse"
use Alt+tab and ctrl+alt+up/down arrow keys; well only alt+tab will be easier for you. or right-click on the 'dash' icons

2 unholy
make it holier by customizing with shortcuts, extensions; just because you dislike some parts of it and don't know how to work with it and feel lazy to learn, that does not make it unholy

3 Wait, I was told by a GNOME propaganda video that GNOME 3 was made to minimize distraction. Well, I am dsitracted... What now?

use alt+tab and dash icons (all the activities related distractions will be gone for you);


I will explain: It is okay for us to do this: NOT FOR END USERS!
The complaints are for end users, at least for me.
So, while GNOME Shell can be customized, the default is very annoying, additional overhead of hardwork. Telling users, press alt, press alt, or log out first, or just smash your laptop so that it will power down.

Reply Parent Score: 1

vincethewipet Member since:
2007-03-22

"For people who fire up 3 applications and like to see 3D effects, it might be cool. It may even compete with Google Chrome OS. But... let's be serious."

I'm uncomfortable when people make that kind of assumption. It's a little insulting for the people who are able to use (and even like) Gnome-Shell for real, complex, work. I'm currently doing my thesis (doctoral degree) under Fedora 16, and I have no problem dealing with lots of windows, on multiple workspaces.

I can understand why some people (or even most people) doesn't like Gnome-Shell, and your comment was truly interesting to read, but it's perfectly possible for someone else do adapt to Gnome-Shell, and be very productive with it.

Reply Parent Score: 6

Delgarde Member since:
2008-08-19

I'm uncomfortable when people make that kind of assumption. It's a little insulting for the people who are able to use (and even like) Gnome-Shell for real, complex, work. I'm currently doing my thesis (doctoral degree) under Fedora 16, and I have no problem dealing with lots of windows, on multiple workspaces.


Likewise. I get that some people don't like it - but some of those people seem to feel that if it doesn't work for them, it must be utterly broken and that anyone using it must not be a serious user. Yeah, thanks, guys...

Reply Parent Score: 3

sdeber Member since:
2005-07-06

"For people who fire up 3 applications and like to see 3D effects, it might be cool. It may even compete with Google Chrome OS. But... let's be serious."

I'm uncomfortable when people make that kind of assumption. It's a little insulting for the people who are able to use (and even like) Gnome-Shell for real, complex, work. I'm currently doing my thesis (doctoral degree) under Fedora 16, and I have no problem dealing with lots of windows, on multiple workspaces.

I can understand why some people (or even most people) doesn't like Gnome-Shell, and your comment was truly interesting to read, but it's perfectly possible for someone else do adapt to Gnome-Shell, and be very productive with it.


Your thesis is complex, but editing it with latex or any other software is not complex. The real complex tasks are entertainment tasks. For serious tasks, the stupidity and inefficiency of Gnome shell can be ignored since people will concentrate more on tasks. In your case, I would assume your concentration would be on the contents of your thesis. For entertainment, that is a different story.

Reply Parent Score: 3

Jason Bourne Member since:
2007-06-02

I can understand why some people (or even most people) doesn't like Gnome-Shell, and your comment was truly interesting to read, but it's perfectly possible for someone else do adapt to Gnome-Shell, and be very productive with it.


So what you are basically saying is that you prefer to walk on foot, than to drive a car. You will get to the same destination, but slower. Yes, the brain can adapt you. Shortcuts are like "buses", they take you there too, but you need to pay the ticket, find a seat, pay attention to each stop... We see human beings without cars that are completely adapted without a car, or using the bus. Hell, there are people, who, after 20 years in jail, they just rather be there for good, instead of being released! Perhaps it's the same thought that disturbs you.

Edited 2011-11-09 14:23 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 0

TechGeek Member since:
2006-01-14

So you never used workspaces before? What you rant about have NOTHING to do with Gnome3. That could happen on any desktop. IF you have 10 windows overlapping each other, how can you ever see whats happening in the bottom? Answer: you can't very easily! There are shortcuts for moving things to other workspaces. There are shortcuts for moving to other workspaces. While I don't like the fact that they don't seem to want to listen to users, I am happy that its all javascript for the most part. Extensions will make up for what they take out.

Edited 2011-11-09 02:58 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 4

Jason Bourne Member since:
2007-06-02

So you never used workspaces before? What you rant about have NOTHING to do with Gnome3. That could happen on any desktop. IF you have 10 windows overlapping each other, how can you ever see whats happening in the bottom? Answer: you can't very easily! There are shortcuts for moving things to other workspaces. There are shortcuts for moving to other workspaces. While I don't like the fact that they don't seem to want to listen to users, I am happy that its all javascript for the most part. Extensions will make up for what they take out.


No, I never had to use more than one workspace. Actually, I never will use - to me is a "non-feature". If you like it, praise the Lord. But most don't use it. On the contrary of what you're saying, GNOME 2 has a feature in the task-list which colours the window that needs your attention. I have been living with that perfectly fine. XP had that, W7 has this.

I don't have that in gnome-shell, although it has a notification system that says "Nautilus is now ready". But I don't even have a tasklist and I have to move to the crazy Activities a zillion times. Then I have to hunt for 2 seconds what I am looking for, which window I need to monitor what's happening. Should I have a tasklist, I would just have clicked on the minimized window? This is proof of how the Shell is silly. The direction is to make even this faster, and not slower, like the Shell does.

I think gnome-shell has this appeal because of its effects, and it's faster than KDE by a thousand miles. Ok, I give you this credit. But it's a toy DE. For the faint of heart. For daily computer use, it's a no-go. And it's just not me saying. Many dinosaurs of OSS are speaking against it.

I am sick and tired of this talk about shortcuts. CTRL+C, CTRL+V, CTRL-Z and ESC are enough to me. If I wanted to use the keyboard other than typing I would be using ratpoison or plain terminal. But apparently gnome-shell wants to take you to the "next level" of knowing shortcuts. Bad news is that I don't need to use any other stupid combination of shortcuts in most DE's.

Edited 2011-11-09 13:55 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 2

Yoko_T Member since:
2011-08-18

So you never used workspaces before? What you rant about have NOTHING to do with Gnome3. That could happen on any desktop. IF you have 10 windows overlapping each other, how can you ever see whats happening in the bottom? Answer: you can't very easily! There are shortcuts for moving things to other workspaces. There are shortcuts for moving to other workspaces. While I don't like the fact that they don't seem to want to listen to users, I am happy that its all javascript for the most part. Extensions will make up for what they take out.


Does anybody who actually interacts with the *REAL* world belive this garbage?

Reply Parent Score: 1

RE: Trying again GNOME Shell...
by OSGuy on Wed 9th Nov 2011 10:16 in reply to "Trying again GNOME Shell..."
OSGuy Member since:
2006-01-01

I'd suggest you wait for the Linux Mint GNOME Shell Extensions which will have a familiar GNOME-2 like look and probably better and will run on top of GNOME 3. I look forward to the new Linux Mint. http://www.osnews.com/story/25298/Linux_Mint_12_Builds_Custom_Deskt... and http://www.linuxmint.com/tmp/blog/1851/linuxmint12-preview.png

Also here is something else you might find fun to read ;) http://www.zdnet.com/blog/perlow/why-ubuntu-1110-fills-me-with-rage...

Edited 2011-11-09 10:20 UTC

Reply Parent Score: 3

Jason Bourne Member since:
2007-06-02

I'd suggest you wait for the Linux Mint GNOME Shell Extensions which will have a familiar GNOME-2 like look and probably better and will run on top of GNOME 3.


Thanks for that link. Well I already tried gnome-shell with MGSE. The menu is quite OK, but the task list is something even worse than XFCE, so very unpolished. The experience is confusing. It's a hack. And as far as I am concern, I get crashes very often when I enable extensions in G3.

Reply Parent Score: 2

Finalzone Member since:
2005-07-06

Nice acting. Here is a cookie.

Reply Parent Score: 2

Jason Bourne Member since:
2007-06-02

Nice acting. Here is a cookie.


No, thanks. I'm on a diet.

Reply Parent Score: 2

RE: Trying again GNOME Shell...
by tuma324 on Wed 9th Nov 2011 20:50 in reply to "Trying again GNOME Shell..."
tuma324 Member since:
2010-04-09

[This is about Fedora 16 Default Desktop Edition]

GNOME Shell was really well marketed. Yes. Why do I keep trying it? It must be psychological or a desperation to solve the desktop dilemma in my soul. I tried GNOME Shell so many times, and unfortunately, things remain the same. All in the same place. Horrible fonts, some crashes, and a navigation / interaction system I can't understand. Not that I can't understand. I can. What I can't understand is why everything is so out of place and silly.

It's like someone who tried to reinvent the wheel and said - ok, now cars will sport a new design, using octagonal wheels, to prevent more accidents, since people can't be trusted to drive a vehicle good enough. That is the exact metaphor of GNOME Shell for me.

Ok, I opened my music player. Now an email client. Now a terminal; now the file manager. Then I go for Empathy, and Firefox. Ok, things got a little too cluttered. So I drag some of them towards the right-side panel workspaces, to alleviate the issue. While I am one application, I have to constantly go to "Activities" to "monitor" what is going on in the background. My eyes can't see much out of a workspace panel... there's not much to see, apart from the fact that I have to select *THAT* workspace and completely let go loose of what I was doing. Was I in Firefox? What was I doing? That is where the Linus' quoted "mess" comes in.

And the process keeps going and going. Ok, I have counted now that I went to Activities for at least 100 times in 40 minutes. That is where the Linus' quoted "crazy" comes in. I feel it.

Suddenly, my brain gets an apnea. Like sleeping apnea. You stop for a moment, and there's distraction. (In apnea, you get a halt in your breathing system, and your brain wakes you up, not letting you sleep). I browse workspaces all over again to see what I am doing. Ok, I was trying to browse for a file. But Firefox is at another workspace, which means that I have to go back to Activities and move workspaces again just to get to it. That is where the Linus' quoted "head up the arse" comes in.

Now I see a established distro making a decision to use this desktop as default. A distro that is preferred by Linus Torvalds himself. And no one to question. Every Fedora user seems to be happy, accepting this. Number 3 at Distrowatch.com, things are calm, quiet. Good enough. Millions using it. That is where the Linus' quote "unholy" comes in. Unholy because despite these facts, everybody is happy with it, accepting as it was the Holy Grail in modern desktop design.

Wait, I was told by a GNOME propaganda video that GNOME 3 was made to minimize distraction. Well, I am dsitracted... What now? I am fully distracted because I have to just drop things and go to Activities to take care of other things. Who is the responsible for this entire sh1te? I would at least have fired this group of people.

I tried. And I can't use it. Brain apnea. Mess. For people who fire up 3 applications and like to see 3D effects, it might be cool. It may even compete with Google Chrome OS. But... let's be serious. Not a GNOME 2 replacement at all.

Unholy Mess - oh he knows what he says. Precisely.

Unfortunately, Fedora 14 was my last Fedora. GNOME 3 will eventually hit Red Hat stock product. And this will be another story.

All I wanted is that was a huge call out for MATE (GNOME 2 fork). A huge call out from developers everywhere to make this brand into the mainstream and keep us Linux users with sane choices. MATE started with one guy. There may be more now. Lift up the flag. Spread the word. MATE can be even bigger than GNOME. There's still no website. No foundation. We need it. We need the support of all developers. To port MATE to GTK 3, to port new themes, to re-structure the system back end and get rid of silly dependencies. It can be done. Really.

This was the last time I used GNOME Shell. Today.
And to my surprise, a live Fedora session may/will crash if you start installing stuff. From USB stick or Live CD in RAM. Curiously I havent't experienced this with Ubuntu Live CDs... ever, even after installing tons of apps in a single session.

Fedora, blows everything again. It's a shame.


Go cry somewhere else. Gnome 3 is fine, if you don't like it don't use it and quit your bitching.

Reply Parent Score: 0

Jason Bourne Member since:
2007-06-02

Go cry somewhere else. Gnome 3 is fine, if you don't like it don't use it and quit your bitching.


Your comment is nowhere near constructive. I want to see if you can argue more objectively, raise some contradiction, some more base. OSNews is free to receive any comment, if it bothers you, just go away.

Reply Parent Score: 3

allanregistos Member since:
2011-02-10

Same feeling here.
I am an early adapter of GNOME Shell and I like it, but things go wrong:

No Power Off button and was told to:
---------> Press Alt
---------> Log out so that you can then shutdown!@#!@#$!@#??? Really?!!? Is that a user interface improvement?
---------> Use tweak extension
---------> Type this command as root: "shutdown -h now"

What about end users? System admin will complain for their end users, not for them. We are okay to just pull the battery out from the laptop just to shutdown the computer, or a better way to smash the laptop against a rock to power it down, but this is a BIG NO to end users.

So GNOME Shell is a niche desktop shell only designed for GNOME Developers and their impressive Design team(I am looking at you ugly icons, ugly icons and ugly fonts, large close buttons and ugly shades of gray, i.e., boring colors) in my opinion. Yes we can use extension as hacks to work-around this mess.

Plus constant hovering over activities complaint and was told to:
---------> Use alt shortcut combinations! Note to developers: I am not used to keyboard shortcuts, I am a mouse-only user when it comes to apps switching.

Unity is much better in my use case.

Facts about Fedora:

1. Most GNOME Developers are under the payroll of Red Hat
2. Red Hat is the primary sponsor of Fedora
3. Therefore, GNOME Shell is Fedora 16's default desktop shell

So DO NOT complain if the GNOME Shell is the default desktop shell regardless of its miserable situation.

GNOME Shell is a failure for me at this moment. (Note, I am not saying that GNOME Shell is failure in general, at least, *it is* for me.)

Can't stop comparing it to Unity.
Unity, though not perfect, is much better because:
1. Dash bar is consistent
2. Min/Max/Close are still the same
3. Unity is configurable by design, but the Unity team opted to make a stable version first, configuration comes later
4. You don't have the pain to constantly hover over the top panel just to switch between apps
5. You can access the dash bar with one direction, in GNOME Shell, it is two-way.
6. Scope and lenses

Reply Parent Score: 2